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陈伟部长 赖总统对于我们国防预算的成长他有一个很明确的政策指导在2030年前要达到GDP5%您知道GDP5%的国防预算概阅有多少数字吗"},{"start":39.731,"end":54.858,"text":"我想因為我們現在GDP有確實有往上成長的一個趨勢所以我們如果應該要看用哪一年的GDP來計算那當時總統在宣布的時候應該是在202214年那當時應該是在28.5兆還是28.5兆2.85"},{"start":69.585,"end":95.685,"text":"我們今年是GDP3.32這樣我把一些數字跟您分享28台幣如果賴總統講您說那個占比GDP5%我們用去年的預算來講國家總預算GDP的東西是28兆我們的國防預算占比就到將近1兆5000億那往後還有4年我們不談成長"},{"start":96.926,"end":121.383,"text":"所以说我们有一个5505亿的一个额度增长平均每年有四年间每年增长1376亿就是持续成长那如果我们国防预算每年成长1376亿怎么会跟其他的不会产生排挤呢因为我的额度已经包在里面了这是总统的指导啊就前面几个"},{"start":122.543,"end":148.111,"text":"这个友好我们同仁讲的话都会讲产生排挤我就问他他连这个数字都没看过怎么会产生排挤呢而且对我们国防预算来讲有很大的预量跟成长空间这个是我们支持总统的想法另外我要再跟大家讲一下刚才大家特别讲乌克兰的案例成功的案例未必可以复制乌克兰的面积是台湾的16.7倍"},{"start":149.867,"end":169.625,"text":"烏克蘭有starlink如果沒有starlink support他 他早就輸了烏克蘭用的是starlink跟現在fiber optical導引他不是平原 他沒有高山 沒有大城市所以看到的目標不是烏方的就是俄方的如果把他那個套到台灣來請問我們21萬架無人機裡面"},{"start":172.864,"end":189.414,"text":"用5G 6G乃至7GWiFi如果到了暫時電網中斷WiFi沒有了請問我們的微波這個時候副總執行官你能不能答我們的微波導引有多少千這有跟速發部有溝通過嗎"},{"start":191.662,"end":209.101,"text":"委員好,這一部分實際上我們在國防部其他的暗巷裡頭,還有其他部會的暗巷裡頭,關於國家通信任性資源作戰的時候這一塊都已經有規劃正在做。那我們這些未來無人機的發展當然也是配合這一部分的科技也在進行。"},{"start":210.416,"end":237.224,"text":"都在規劃但是沒有人納入法規只是橫向溝通這一部分也在法規上的修訂也都有討論也在做相關的這個速發部如果今天不能把民間的頻道頻寬移給國防部到了暫時當Wi-Fi沒有用你有線的微波現有國軍的頻道都是軍用的都自己用的這麼多的無人機進來了你沒有中繼台沒有機動微波站"},{"start":238.084,"end":256.264,"text":"请问这个问题怎么解决现有的平补管制已经根据我们作战的需求都在国安会的主导之下有在做进行相关的建制跟讨论你21万架是总数你在国内单位平均整个在使用的时候你不会超过5000个门号"},{"start":257.813,"end":274.963,"text":"最好的案例就是人家送你100个iPhone18结果你只有三个SIM卡这个不是诚意你都stockpiling把东西放在那边所以这些的效益也是有限的现在我们要讲的你是用遥控还是自主无人机"},{"start":276.384,"end":302.022,"text":"遙控就是你戴個Goggles操縱那你現看看的都是微型小型機制可是自主式的無人機的AI的晶片的軟體還有通訊的中心這個是末端用戶你要負責任的外銷沒有問題我們去年無人機外銷產業已經達到了9300多億美金我們樂見其中但是如果這個東西是由國防部來運用要發揮它的戰力烏克蘭的效果"},{"start":303.643,"end":320.953,"text":"并不能够在台湾复制你的电网全部在西岸你也不可能拖20公里长的微那个micro optical的导线所以你的线住音是非常困难的这1300艘海上无人艇你要超过到24海里请问用哪一个频段去导控它"},{"start":321.713,"end":334.033,"text":"他是自主式吗那如果你谈到了自主式我就问这个长官的授权man in the loop人在回路之内man on the loopout the loop你的ROE有出来吗ROE不是写一个卡片的"},{"start":335.047,"end":359.053,"text":"包委員您講的那個卡片只是我們在演習的時候為了讓基層官並了解用的實際上常設性的交戰規則還有我們這個授權的這個範圍都已經定在我們未來這個相關的作戰的作戰計畫裡頭並且有一部分已經付諸執行所以有關於這個無人機包含它各自導控的方式以及導航的方式目標辨識的方式最後確認目標ROE接戰規則的方式"},{"start":362.814,"end":378.395,"text":"都在我们国防部JOP里头的计划里头都已经写进去了并且有部分已经生效那当然我们这个未来的无人机采购也要配合这个科技的发展以及迭代更新最重要的是我们未来战场上的需求这一部分我们都已经做了考虑了"},{"start":378.675,"end":397.023,"text":"前面已經講了這個放在年度預算因為你每年度成長的預算都有這個1370幾億所以並不會產生排擠效用關鍵是說21萬架次你的儲藏包括有自毀式彈藥儲存這個國防部有計劃但是太多的數字一致"},{"start":397.563,"end":411.63,"text":"放在那边你并没有发生的效果所以我们认为放在年度预算并没有冲击我是支持这个案子也支持国防部的想法唯一的就是站在在野党做监督的角色看我们认为放到年度预算并没有冲击"},{"start":412.626,"end":433.396,"text":"我是主席局局長 容許我針對排擠這個問題做個說明剛剛提到的去年114年有關GDP是28.5兆總統提到的2030年GDP的5%它基本上是一個前提就是核心的部分3.5其中全社會防衛論性是1.5所以在這種前提之下預算"},{"start":434.096,"end":461.211,"text":"沒有指定是一定是用年度預算按照預算法83條國防緊急設施是可以編列特別預算所以我們用3.5這個核心預算來算的話我們以去年114年在編115年的時候國防預算編在公務預算5614億中央政府總預算3兆零350億佔比是18.2%如果說我持續把國防預算要成長的部分沒有透過特別預算"},{"start":462.659,"end":490.609,"text":"的編列的話我直接放到公務預算會變成我的我會有5614億如果成長一倍到一兆的話但中央政府總預算規模會超過23%到24%這樣的情況之下一定是會排擠到中央政府各政事別經濟社會文化教育支出的相關的經費支出所以排擠效應會發生在這個狀況之下你今年的預算9300多億是包括特別預算在裡面"},{"start":491.249,"end":518.634,"text":"有 9495 已經包含進去了所有相關海空戰力特別提升 F-16 的那一個然後還有兩年那個韌性的部分還有相關其他的依照北約所計算的海巡跟那個退伍費的部分所以未來增加5500多億是以你這個9000多億往上加所以額度tolerance 已經在裡面了"},{"start":520.93,"end":543.998,"text":"他這個是包含的特別預算才裡面是對 今年的是3.32是含特別預算是含的我們原來的講了9000多億也含預估我們本來要通過1.25兆的特別預算所以我們一定要用特別預算才可以注意支撐我們所需要的廣泛預算的成長"},{"start":548.834,"end":550.237,"text":"好,謝謝陳永康委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:33:05.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:33:20.736000+08:00","text":"召委好，有請顧部長及副總長執行官。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T12:33:20.736000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T12:33:23.912000+08:00","text":"有請顧部長、副總長執行官。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:33:23.912000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T12:33:27.088000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:33:27.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:33:27.088000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:33:29.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:33:40.665000+08:00","text":"部長，賴總統對於我們國防預算的成長，有一個很明確的政策指導，在2030年前要達到GDP 5%，您知道GDP 5%的國防預算概約是多少數字嗎？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:33:43.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:33:53.116000+08:00","text":"因為我們現在GDP確實有往上成長的趨勢，所以我們應該要看是用哪一年的GDP來計算。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:33:56.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:33:57.858000+08:00","text":"當時總統在宣布的時候，應該是2025（114）年，那應該是28.5兆……2.85？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:34:12.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:34:59.780000+08:00","text":"我們今年的GDP是3.32%，在此我跟您分享一些數字，如果依賴總統講的占比GDP 5%來算，去年國家總預算是28兆，我們的國防預算占比就將近1兆5,000億，往後還有4年，我們先不談成長，所以我們有一個5,505億的額度增長，在這4年間，平均每年增長1,376億，就是持續成長，如果我們國防預算每年成長1,376億，怎麼會跟其他的部會產生排擠呢？","quality":0.687},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:35:00.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:35:02.982000+08:00","text":"因為我的額度已經包在裡面了，這是總統的指導啊！","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:35:03.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:35:12.585000+08:00","text":"但前面幾個同仁都講到會產生排擠，我就問，他可能連這個數字都沒看過，怎麼會產生排擠呢？","quality":0.447},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:35:13.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:35:20.647000+08:00","text":"而且對我們的國防預算來講，有很大的預量跟成長空間，我們支持總統的想法。","quality":0.594},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:35:21.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:36:09.672000+08:00","text":"另外，我要再跟大家講一下，剛才大家特別講烏克蘭的案例，成功的案例未必可以複製，烏克蘭的面積是臺灣的16.7倍，烏克蘭有Starlink，如果沒有Starlink support它，它早就輸了，烏克蘭用的是Starlink，現在是用Fiber-Optic導引，但它不是平原，它沒有高山，它沒有大城市，所以看到的目標不是烏方的就是俄方的，如果把那個套到臺灣來，請問我們21萬架無人機裡面，用5G、6G乃至於7G、WiFi，如果到了戰時電網中斷，WiFi沒有了，請問副總長執行官，我們的微波導引有多少channel？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:36:11.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:36:12.414000+08:00","text":"這跟數發部有溝通過嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T12:36:14.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:36:14.842000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T12:36:15.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:36:32.081000+08:00","text":"這一部分實際上在我們國防部其他的案項裡頭，還有其他部會的案項裡頭，關鍵國家通信韌性、支援作戰這一塊都已經有規劃，也正在做了，我們未來無人機的發展，當然也是配合這一部分的科技在進行當中。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:36:33.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:36:36.637000+08:00","text":"都在規劃，但是沒有納入法規，只是橫向溝通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T12:36:36.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:36:41.038000+08:00","text":"這一部分法規的修訂也都有在討論，也在做相關的……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:36:42.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:37:02.065000+08:00","text":"數發部如果今天不能把民間的頻道、頻寬移給國防部，到了戰時，當WiFi沒有用，在有限的微波下，現有國軍的頻道都是軍用的、都是自己用的，但這麼多的無人機進來了，你沒有中繼臺、沒有機動微波站，請問這個問題怎麼解決？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T12:37:02.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:37:10.394000+08:00","text":"現有的頻譜、管制，已經根據我們作戰的需求，在國安會的主導之下，都有在進行相關的建置跟討論。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:37:12.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:37:32.940000+08:00","text":"21萬架是總數，而國內單位平均、整個在使用的時候，並不會超過5,000個門號，最好的案例就是人家送你100個iPhone 18，結果你只有3個SIM卡，這個不是誠意，但你都stockpiling、都把東西放在那邊，所以這些發揮的效益也是有限的。","quality":0.707},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:37:33.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:37:37.803000+08:00","text":"現在我們要講的是，你是用遙控還是自主無人機？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:37:39.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:37:52.853000+08:00","text":"遙控就是戴個goggle操縱，看的是微型、小型……可是自主式無人機AI晶片的軟體還有通訊的中心，這個是末端用戶要負責任的。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:37:53.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:38:23.933000+08:00","text":"其實外銷沒有問題，我們去年無人機外銷產業已經達到九千三百多萬美金，我們樂見其中，如果這個東西是由國防部來運用，要發揮它的戰力，但烏克蘭的效果並不能夠在臺灣複製，你的電網全部在西岸，你也不可能拖20公里長的micro-optics的導線，所以你的限制因素是非常困難的，這1,300艘海上無人艇，要超過到24海浬，請問要用哪一個頻段去導控它？","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:38:24.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:38:25.354000+08:00","text":"它是自主式的嗎？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:38:27.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:38:35.291000+08:00","text":"談到自主式，我就要問，關於長官的授權，人在迴路之內（man in the loop）、man on the loop、man out of the loop，你的ROE有出來嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:38:35.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:38:36.853000+08:00","text":"ROE不是只寫一個卡片欸！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T12:38:38.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:38:54.891000+08:00","text":"報告委員，您講的那個卡片，只是我們在演習的時候，為了讓基層官兵了解而使用的，實際上常設性的交戰規則，還有我們授權的範圍，都已經訂在我們未來相關的作戰計畫裡頭，並且有一部分已經付諸執行。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T12:38:55.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:39:11.282000+08:00","text":"有關於無人機，包含它各自導控的方式、導航的方式、目標辨識的方式，最後確認目標ROE接戰規則的方式，在我們國防部JOP的計畫裡頭都已經寫進去了，並且有部分已經生效了。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T12:39:12.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:39:21.094000+08:00","text":"當然我們未來的無人機採購，也要配合科技發展以及迭代更新，最重要的是我們未來戰場上的需求，這一部分我們都已經做了考慮。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:39:21.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:39:45.485000+08:00","text":"前面已經講了，這個放在年度預算，因為你每年度成長的預算都有一千三百七十幾億，所以並不會產生排擠效用，關鍵是這21萬架次，你的儲藏包括自毀式彈藥儲存，這個國防部有計畫，但是太多數字一直放在那邊，並沒有發生效果，所以我們認為放在年度預算並沒有衝擊。","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:39:46.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:39:54.290000+08:00","text":"我是支持這個案子，也支持國防部的想法，唯一就是站在在野黨監督的角色來看，我們認為放到年度預算並沒有衝擊。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-07-16T12:39:55.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:39:59.888000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我是主計局局長，容許我針對排擠這個問題做一個說明。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-07-16T12:40:00.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:08.507000+08:00","text":"剛剛提到去年（114年）有關GDP是28.5兆，總統所提2030年GDP的5%基本上是一個前提，就是核心的部分3.5%，其中全社會防衛韌性是1.5%，所以在這種前提下，預算沒有指定一定是用年度預算，按照預算法第八十三條，國防緊急設施是可以編列特別預算，所以我們用3.5%，這個核心預算來算的話，我們以去年（114年）在編115年預算的時候，國防預算編在公務預算5,614億，中央政府總預算是3兆350億，占比是18.2%，如果我持續把國防預算要成長的部分沒有透過特別預算的編列，我直接放到公務預算，就會變成我會有5,614億，如果成長1倍到1兆的話，占中央政府總預算的規模會超過23%到24%，在這樣的情況之下，一定會排擠到中央政府各政事別經濟、社會、文化、教育支出的相關經費，所以排擠效應會發生在這個狀況之下。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:09.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:13.589000+08:00","text":"你今年的預算九千三百多億是包括特別預算在裡面……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:13.589000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:16.251000+08:00","text":"有，9,495億是包含的。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:16.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:17.292000+08:00","text":"已經包含進去了？對。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:18.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:32.005000+08:00","text":"包含所有相關海空戰力特別提升F-16那個部分，然後還有兩年韌性的部分，還有相關其他依照北約計算海巡跟退輔會的部分。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:33.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:41.614000+08:00","text":"是，未來增加五千五百多億，是以你這個九千多億往上加，所以額度全部已經在裡面了？","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:44.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:45.811000+08:00","text":"它這個是包含了特別預算在裡面。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:48.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:50.152000+08:00","text":"對，今年的是3.32%，是含特別預算？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:50.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:50.932000+08:00","text":"是含的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:50.932000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T12:41:53.833000+08:00","text":"額度已經夠大了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:41:53.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:42:06.998000+08:00","text":"我們原來講的九千多億也含預估我們本來要通過的1.25兆的特別預算，所以我們一定要用特別預算才足以支撐我們所需要的國防預算的成長。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"陳委員永康","start":"2026-07-16T12:42:11.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:42:12.696000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T12:42:12.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:42:13.237000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳永康委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T12:42:13.737000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T12:42:22.879857+08:00","text":"我們上午答詢到陳超明委員後休息，我們等一下再宣布下午繼續開會的時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T12:42:23.179857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T12:42:26.608429+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請蔡易餘委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":853,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（12時33分）召委好，有請顧部長及副總長執行官。"],["主席：有請顧部長、副總長執行官。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：部長好。部長，賴總統對於我們國防預算的成長，有一個很明確的政策指導，在2030年前要達到GDP 5%，您知道GDP 5%的國防預算概約是多少數字嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們現在GDP確實有往上成長的趨勢，所以我們應該要看是用哪一年的GDP來計算。當時總統在宣布的時候，應該是2025（114）年，那應該是28.5兆……"],["陳委員永康：2.85？我們今年的GDP是3.32%，在此我跟您分享一些數字，如果依賴總統講的占比GDP 5%來算，去年國家總預算是28兆，我們的國防預算占比就將近1兆5,000億，往後還有4年，我們先不談成長，所以我們有一個5,505億的額度增長，在這4年間，平均每年增長1,376億，就是持續成長，如果我們國防預算每年成長1,376億，怎麼會跟其他的部會產生排擠呢？因為我的額度已經包在裡面了，這是總統的指導啊！但前面幾個同仁都講到會產生排擠，我就問，他可能連這個數字都沒看過，怎麼會產生排擠呢？而且對我們的國防預算來講，有很大的預量跟成長空間，我們支持總統的想法。","另外，我要再跟大家講一下，剛才大家特別講烏克蘭的案例，成功的案例未必可以複製，烏克蘭的面積是臺灣的16.7倍，烏克蘭有Starlink，如果沒有Starlink support它，它早就輸了，烏克蘭用的是Starlink，現在是用Fiber-Optic導引，但它不是平原，它沒有高山，它沒有大城市，所以看到的目標不是烏方的就是俄方的，如果把那個套到臺灣來，請問我們21萬架無人機裡面，用5G、6G乃至於7G、WiFi，如果到了戰時電網中斷，WiFi沒有了，請問副總長執行官，我們的微波導引有多少channel？這跟數發部有溝通過嗎？"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：委員好。這一部分實際上在我們國防部其他的案項裡頭，還有其他部會的案項裡頭，關鍵國家通信韌性、支援作戰這一塊都已經有規劃，也正在做了，我們未來無人機的發展，當然也是配合這一部分的科技在進行當中。"],["陳委員永康：都在規劃，但是沒有納入法規，只是橫向溝通。"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：這一部分法規的修訂也都有在討論，也在做相關的……"],["陳委員永康：數發部如果今天不能把民間的頻道、頻寬移給國防部，到了戰時，當WiFi沒有用，在有限的微波下，現有國軍的頻道都是軍用的、都是自己用的，但這麼多的無人機進來了，你沒有中繼臺、沒有機動微波站，請問這個問題怎麼解決？"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：現有的頻譜、管制，已經根據我們作戰的需求，在國安會的主導之下，都有在進行相關的建置跟討論。"],["陳委員永康：21萬架是總數，而國內單位平均、整個在使用的時候，並不會超過5,000個門號，最好的案例就是人家送你100個iPhone 18，結果你只有3個SIM卡，這個不是誠意，但你都stockpiling、都把東西放在那邊，所以這些發揮的效益也是有限的。現在我們要講的是，你是用遙控還是自主無人機？遙控就是戴個goggle操縱，看的是微型、小型……可是自主式無人機AI晶片的軟體還有通訊的中心，這個是末端用戶要負責任的。其實外銷沒有問題，我們去年無人機外銷產業已經達到九千三百多萬美金，我們樂見其中，如果這個東西是由國防部來運用，要發揮它的戰力，但烏克蘭的效果並不能夠在臺灣複製，你的電網全部在西岸，你也不可能拖20公里長的micro-optics的導線，所以你的限制因素是非常困難的，這1,300艘海上無人艇，要超過到24海浬，請問要用哪一個頻段去導控它？它是自主式的嗎？談到自主式，我就要問，關於長官的授權，人在迴路之內（man in the loop）、man on the loop、man out of the loop，你的ROE有出來嗎？ROE不是只寫一個卡片欸！"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：報告委員，您講的那個卡片，只是我們在演習的時候，為了讓基層官兵了解而使用的，實際上常設性的交戰規則，還有我們授權的範圍，都已經訂在我們未來相關的作戰計畫裡頭，並且有一部分已經付諸執行。有關於無人機，包含它各自導控的方式、導航的方式、目標辨識的方式，最後確認目標ROE接戰規則的方式，在我們國防部JOP的計畫裡頭都已經寫進去了，並且有部分已經生效了。當然我們未來的無人機採購，也要配合科技發展以及迭代更新，最重要的是我們未來戰場上的需求，這一部分我們都已經做了考慮。"],["陳委員永康：前面已經講了，這個放在年度預算，因為你每年度成長的預算都有一千三百七十幾億，所以並不會產生排擠效用，關鍵是這21萬架次，你的儲藏包括自毀式彈藥儲存，這個國防部有計畫，但是太多數字一直放在那邊，並沒有發生效果，所以我們認為放在年度預算並沒有衝擊。我是支持這個案子，也支持國防部的想法，唯一就是站在在野黨監督的角色來看，我們認為放到年度預算並沒有衝擊。"],["謝局長其賢：報告委員，我是主計局局長，容許我針對排擠這個問題做一個說明。剛剛提到去年（114年）有關GDP是28.5兆，總統所提2030年GDP的5%基本上是一個前提，就是核心的部分3.5%，其中全社會防衛韌性是1.5%，所以在這種前提下，預算沒有指定一定是用年度預算，按照預算法第八十三條，國防緊急設施是可以編列特別預算，所以我們用3.5%，這個核心預算來算的話，我們以去年（114年）在編115年預算的時候，國防預算編在公務預算5,614億，中央政府總預算是3兆350億，占比是18.2%，如果我持續把國防預算要成長的部分沒有透過特別預算的編列，我直接放到公務預算，就會變成我會有5,614億，如果成長1倍到1兆的話，占中央政府總預算的規模會超過23%到24%，在這樣的情況之下，一定會排擠到中央政府各政事別經濟、社會、文化、教育支出的相關經費，所以排擠效應會發生在這個狀況之下。"],["陳委員永康：你今年的預算九千三百多億是包括特別預算在裡面……"],["謝局長其賢：有，9,495億是包含的。"],["陳委員永康：已經包含進去了？"],["謝局長其賢：對。"],["顧部長立雄：包含所有相關海空戰力特別提升F-16那個部分，然後還有兩年韌性的部分，還有相關其他依照北約計算海巡跟退輔會的部分。"],["陳委員永康：是，未來增加五千五百多億，是以你這個九千多億往上加，所以額度全部已經在裡面了？"],["謝局長其賢：它這個是包含了特別預算在裡面。"],["陳委員永康：對，今年的是3.32%，是含特別預算？"],["謝局長其賢：是含的。"],["陳委員永康：額度已經夠大了！"],["顧部長立雄：我們原來講的九千多億也含預估我們本來要通過的1.25兆的特別預算，所以我們一定要用特別預算才足以支撐我們所需要的國防預算的成長。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員。","我們上午答詢到陳超明委員後休息，我們等一下再宣布下午繼續開會的時間。","接下來我們有請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}