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67億主要銷哪裡主要銷哪裡主要是捷克沙烏地阿拉伯跟"},{"start":139.426,"end":166.943,"text":"波蘭這三個國家他們會用在哪裡可能有多種用途都有所以他在軍事用途上面有很多嗎是整機嗎是整機全部都是整機去年的0.9億也是整機0.93是整機沒關係多少是整機整機出去全部都是在捷克然後去年的話最主要是捷克波蘭美國"},{"start":167.904,"end":185.738,"text":"那今年一到六月是捷克、沙烏地阿拉伯跟波蘭沙烏地阿拉伯是最近一次一張比較大的單那我們現在說要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心這個很大的一個前提就是要掌握關鍵領土鍵跟國際認證的能力這兩個部分我們都有了嗎"},{"start":190.342,"end":203.637,"text":"目前當然我們有一些關鍵的零組件還是有一些缺口缺口主要是什麼缺口最主要是比方說地導控的這些這個非導控的晶片地控晶片還有通訊 籌載"},{"start":205.598,"end":233.134,"text":"這個部分那這個部分我們是現在透過法人科專業界科專的部分補助業界來目前顯然是還沒有啦因為你科專的這個部分我們看目前在我們整機輸出的時候這些來源大部分都還是進口的我們看到台灣無人機產業目前還是在組裝的這個層級比較多因為我們核心的零件剛剛有稍微提到比如說抗干擾導航還有加密資料鏈"},{"start":234.696,"end":239.818,"text":"EO跟IR光片模組馬達推進系統飛控等等其實這個部分其實我們可能都還很多很多是需要外部的資源甚至進口那我們要建立可信的供應鏈就必須投入在航電光電資料鏈動力等關鍵模組的這個自主化可是我們現在目前最缺的也是這個所以如果這些你自己做不到"},{"start":261.244,"end":280.724,"text":"我們沒有辦法提到我們想要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心這個部分次長認不認同其實跟我們報告我們現在中型跟小型無人機的國產化比例已經達到大概六七成以上了那我們針對這些剛剛講到技術缺口我們的供應業也已經跟像中光電一些業者"},{"start":281.204,"end":283.126,"text":"他們也組成一個技術研發的聯盟大家一起來就這些技術缺口趕快來補齊好 次長講到中光電我們現在請教因為剛剛我們口口聲聲都說需要長期穩定的這個訂單我們其實要在這裡特別提醒"},{"start":302.362,"end":327.687,"text":"國防預算的支出是要滿足我們戰力的形成他是為了讓我們的作戰需求或者甚至我們的國家安全是有一定的保障任何武器裝備到位的時候都應該符合作戰需求這是國防預算編列的很重要的一個目的所以特別預算為什麼我們認為他已經到腐爛的地步他甚至我們等一下來討論一下因為我們這個這個國防"},{"start":332.509,"end":350.729,"text":"國防部版的這個無人仔劇編了2100億他很大的一個目的都說要發展國防產業還有建立我們自己的戰力可是我們來看看目前我們國內的廠商有哪些是具備相當的能力可不可以舉幾個例子"},{"start":352.024,"end":367.054,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個我們的無人機的這個產業聯盟你剛剛提到一家了嘛那還有沒有動力模組這個像螺旋槳螺槳的部分像台中甘摩安能那電池的部分有能源科技有量"},{"start":367.974,"end":384.28,"text":"馬達的部分有東元、麗山、富田引擎的部分有宇多田、豐造、海威、台禽等等這邊其實有相當多的廠商就包括剛我提到267家的廠商其實他們目前都已經投入這樣的一個"},{"start":384.5,"end":402.026,"text":"我們要的不是你這樣零散的廠商我們現在來說好了我們現在我想請教因為顯然那個廠商你沒有辦法把他講出來你剛剛講一個嘛就是他可以整機賣出來的你剛剛提到中光電我現在要請教我們國防部顧不有要補充嗎"},{"start":403.767,"end":408.991,"text":"如果是整機的部分像雷虎、中光電、嘉士達、神藥、經緯、自強、長榮、自菲、晴朗等等你念了很多我想要請教我們顧部長因為我們在這些過去我們在這些預算的運用上面我們希望可以驗證以後再來採購因為我們一直以來我們在過去很多很多失敗的案例我舉幾個例子"},{"start":434.348,"end":450.258,"text":"先講我們軍用商規五行六類的好了剛剛市長念到的不管長榮航太、智飛科技、中光電還有神通、雷虎什麼這些很多的這幾家我們先來看看我們去年買的建載型"},{"start":451.258,"end":472.06,"text":"還有我們之前買的艦載型 艦載無人機 陸用艦載無人機 艦載型無人機 微型無人機 木落型無人機 戰術型無人機我舉個例子我們之前去考察的時候部長應該也知道我們的艦載型無人機 微型無人機這兩型我們在現場有看到他在"},{"start":473.121,"end":488.262,"text":"之所以很貴一架要六十幾萬八十幾萬它之所以很貴是因為它有抗干擾的能力可是我們在現場看到它不到三秒就馬上掉落沒有失去自主飛行的能力那我們花這樣的錢是值得的嗎"},{"start":494.548,"end":495.829,"text":"像委員報告這個我想這個測試他一定是按照標準所以我們規格怎麼訂的因為他之所以貴你今天如果他只是兼徵主任今天這個規格"},{"start":509.978,"end":517.166,"text":"你訂出來他就必須要有抗干擾的能力所以你如果他一架高達六十幾萬八十幾萬剛剛次長說我們賣給沙烏地阿拉伯他是可能軍用的我們一架只賣五十萬"},{"start":525.655,"end":536.779,"text":"可是我們自己採購自己國內的一架六十幾萬八十幾萬可是很快他就受到干擾馬上失去自主飛行能力如果未來你編了2100億像這樣子的無人機你還可以繼續買嗎報告委員您剛剛講的那個可能是規格不一樣"},{"start":544.921,"end":554.028,"text":"賣出去的和我們自己國安部的需求規格不一樣它也是軍用的我再次提醒你主要聽清楚我剛剛講的因為之前我們洪昭偉其實他也要過一些相關的資料他說在美國可能買到紙要一萬多塊可是我們的得標的廠商一架要七萬多"},{"start":569.858,"end":573.6,"text":"老實說足球無人機如果是自己組裝連1萬都不用而且還可以參加世界級的比賽所以就這個部分我們現在不能信任的是他用很高的價錢而且你在過去的驗證我們現在講的我們不講沙烏地阿拉伯是說他只買50萬可是我們自己買60幾萬80幾萬並沒有達到我們的符合我們的作戰需求他一下子就被干擾你連飛都不能飛"},{"start":598.331,"end":604.774,"text":"所以為了2100億你還是繼續買這樣子的東西嗎這是第一點因為時間的關係我在舉幾個像我講的微型跟建載型都是剛剛次長說的中光電跟中光電買的一個買了12億多一個買了9億多兩個加起來21億多可是他沒有這樣子的功能那第二個我們看到無人機反制系統我記得民進黨的委員上一次我們在"},{"start":628.266,"end":646.873,"text":"省預算的時候 我有凍結一筆四億的預算民進黨的委員大肆撻伐然後說我亂煽動預算 刻意政治操作事實擺在眼前 說我們阻礙國防反對無人機可是我們發現這個113年到115年無人機反制系統 創未來得標今年最後一年 他測了三次都沒有過那現在怎麼辦"},{"start":657.55,"end":664.454,"text":"我們會後續行政裁罰第一個我們要的不是裁罰你們一直跟我們說你編列預算聽完我的問題你們一直在編很高額的預算說這一定有戰力的需求我們不能有戰力的空隙所以我們用了很多的手段去採購可是113到115已經最後一年過了三年我們無人機反制系統並沒有拿到"},{"start":685.625,"end":689.747,"text":"而且還給他撤了三次的機會所以這三年已經沒有這個反制系統那你未來還要再花三年嗎那你要跟誰買我們現在要說的在這裡要特別強調我們這個內容裡面我們要在這裡再次提醒時間"},{"start":704.814,"end":709.876,"text":"到了 不過我們要特別提到說我們還是要強調先驗證過去再授權未來不要口口聲聲 尤其民進黨的委員在撻伐別人的時候先想想為什麼這些還好我們當時有動下來不然錢如果花了那我們拿到什麼"},{"start":724.048,"end":742.299,"text":"委員請容許委員讓我這邊做公開說明一下我想這個無人機反制系統我幾點來說明第一個這個案子我們是依據政府採購法來辦理採公開透明的方式來招商招標來邀商第一個第二個"},{"start":742.719,"end":748.901,"text":"主任我沒有要跟你 主任主任你不要不需要講這個你們已經花了三年的時間給這一家公司這個機會我們失去戰力已經三年我們這個預算9億多的預算已經編了三年今年最後一年他沒有成功你勢必還要再採購一次我們這三年就是沒有無人機的反制系統可以使用現在我要再講的是"},{"start":767.665,"end":771.427,"text":"還包括你未來我們在中科院過去的這些成果我們剛剛講到的你五行六類我們看到他就是不能用而且你還有六十幾萬八十幾萬老實說如果像那樣子的規格他不到五萬塊就可以買到了"},{"start":783.154,"end":788.856,"text":"所以這是第一個我們要檢討的第二個無人機反制系統不要說你是依照什麼採購法你本來就應該買成熟的產品無人機反制系統在我們全世界沒有這樣成熟產品嗎你直接買成熟的讓我們可以運用這樣就好了另外中科院自己也有做"},{"start":804.261,"end":814.734,"text":"那他到底好不好用 你們也必須要做出一個證明跟澄清因為中台院其實花掉我們國家很多的預算所以2100億我們希望要監督的是驗證過去 如果這些廠商他能夠"},{"start":822.463,"end":828.646,"text":"符合我們的作戰需求能夠符合我們的標準那你當然可以這樣買如果沒有那我們不希望2100億或2400億就像水上的泡影馬上丟了馬上就不見了我們開放國內廠商"},{"start":838.95,"end":862.263,"text":"產制包含他代理國外廠商產制都可以並沒有限制國內的廠商那你不是要國防自主那你如果我們被封鎖的時候我們的這些我們這些東西要從哪裡來烏克蘭之所以能夠撐得下去第一就是他的東西非常便宜第二就是他的迭代非常迅速他是國內自製生產他已經有這樣的量能"},{"start":863.183,"end":886.25,"text":"他有很多分子都來自於中國大陸我們要講的是他們沒有飛鴻供應鏈我們有這樣的顧慮可是你還是可以從國外買的時候你就不是國防自主所以這個部分是開放的全開放的不管是國內的廠商或國外的廠商因為這個案子最後是國內廠商因為第一次招標經濟部推薦的廠商是不是經濟部推薦的廠商是不是不是不是這個不一樣"},{"start":889.711,"end":890.972,"text":"主任 這個部分你去跟媒體說明清楚這個不是在這 我要講的是"},{"start":912.671,"end":933.442,"text":"到未來他拿了我們無人機反制系統已經9億多3年沒有站立我們沒有站立的不止這個還有你的火藥我們之前講的這些通通沒有符合我們的標準時間有關係 不好意思擔忽這樣主席已經站起來我們在後續我們還是希望可以討論可是國防部切記你們的預算來自於"},{"start":937.324,"end":961.911,"text":"所有人民的納稅錢從你過去失敗的例子去找經驗不要把我們的錢全部都浪費掉經濟部也是因為我們之所以希望是經濟部來主導是因為產業發展才可以去補充我們所有量能烏克蘭其實它就是全面性的這樣子的一個產業發展所以這個部分我們還是希望大家可以共同朝這個方向努力謝謝不好意思主席謝謝委員好謝謝馬文君委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:28:25.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:28:25.630000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長還有經濟部何次長。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T13:28:25.630000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:28:26.630000+08:00","text":"請顧部長、何次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T13:28:25.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:28:38.226000+08:00","text":"最後一個委員質詢就好了，好不好？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T13:28:38.226000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:28:49.344000+08:00","text":"馬委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:28:49.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:28:52.185000+08:00","text":"部長好、次長好，今天辛苦了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:28:52.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:29:21.289000+08:00","text":"大家還是非常關切我們今天所討論的議題，首先，我想要先請教經濟部，我們在112年就已經有編了442億統籌型無人載具的計畫，今天有很多位委員提到產業聚落的部分，經濟部其實也提到很多次，產業聚落跟產業鏈已經建構完成了嗎？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:29:22.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:29:35.660000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們統籌型計畫是114年開始，目前我們盤點北中南的聚落其實已經成形，聚落如果有更多商機進來的話，我想參與者會更多。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:29:35.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:29:36.900000+08:00","text":"現在整個產業鏈已經算是完整的？是。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:29:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:29:37.681000+08:00","text":"你們只是希望會更多，但它已經是完整的？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:29:48.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:29:48.767000+08:00","text":"是，應該算是完整的。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:29:49.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:29:50.229000+08:00","text":"大概有多少廠商？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:29:50.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:29:53.191000+08:00","text":"目前我們聯盟廠商總共有267家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:29:54.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:29:56.554000+08:00","text":"267家，可不可以提供相關的資訊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:29:56.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:29:58.956000+08:00","text":"可以，我們可以提供相關的資訊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:29:59.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:01.258000+08:00","text":"希望在這個禮拜之內提供，好不好？好。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:02.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:06.263000+08:00","text":"另外，它目前的成果如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:07.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:12.690000+08:00","text":"既然它都已經成型了，我們現在有些也有外銷，現在無人機相關成熟度及整個生產量能，你們覺得它的成果如何？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:12.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:38.920000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告一個數字，去年我們一整年無人機的出口值達到0.93億美金，大概有29億臺幣左右，今年1到6月已經達到2.12億美金了，所以大概66、67億臺幣。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:40.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:41.243000+08:00","text":"主要銷哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:41.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:45.627000+08:00","text":"主要是捷克、沙烏地阿拉伯及波蘭這三個國家，是我們最主要……","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:46.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:48.268000+08:00","text":"他們會用在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:48.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:49.890000+08:00","text":"可能有多種用途。都有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:49.890000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:51.210000+08:00","text":"對，都有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:51.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:54.993000+08:00","text":"所以它在軍事用途上有很多嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:54.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:56.534000+08:00","text":"是整機嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:56.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:57.294000+08:00","text":"是整機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:57.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:58.435000+08:00","text":"全部都是整機？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:58.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:30:59.435000+08:00","text":"都是整機。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:30:58.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:02.558000+08:00","text":"去年出口的0.9億也是整機？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:02.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:04.199000+08:00","text":"0.93億都是整機。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:05.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:08.421000+08:00","text":"是整機出去，全部都是在捷克……","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:09.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:16.347000+08:00","text":"去年最主要是捷克、波蘭及美國，今年1到6月是捷克、沙烏地阿拉伯及波蘭。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:16.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:20.310000+08:00","text":"沙烏地阿拉伯是最近一次比較大的一張訂單。是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:21.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:30.338000+08:00","text":"我們現在說要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心，這很大的一個前提是要掌握關鍵零組件及國際認證的能力。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:30.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:30.738000+08:00","text":"針對這兩個部分，我們都有了嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:35.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:39.446000+08:00","text":"目前當然我們有一些關鍵零組件還是有一些缺口……","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:40.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:42.450000+08:00","text":"缺口主要是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:42.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:55.761000+08:00","text":"缺口最主要是，比方飛導控晶片、地控晶片、通訊及酬載等，這個部分我們現在透過法人科專、業界科專的部分，補助業界補足這樣的缺口。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:56.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:31:58.403000+08:00","text":"目前顯然是還沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:31:58.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:32:05.567000+08:00","text":"因為在科專的部分，目前在我們整機輸出的部分，這些零組件來源大部分都還是進口的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:32:05.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:32:22.177000+08:00","text":"我們看到目前臺灣無人機產業還是在組裝的這個層級比較多，因為我們核心的零件剛剛有稍微提到，比如抗干擾導航、加密資料鏈、EO及IR光電模組、馬達推進系統及飛控等，這個部分我們可能還是需要仰賴外部資源甚至進口。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:32:22.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:32:23.817000+08:00","text":"我們要建立可信的供應鏈，就必須投入航電、光電、資料鏈、動力等關鍵模組的自主化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:32:23.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:32:50.649000+08:00","text":"可是我們目前最缺的也是這個，如果這些你自己做不到，我們沒有辦法提到我們想要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:32:51.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:32:52.430000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，次長認不認同？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:32:53.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:32:58.817000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們現在中型及小型無人機的國產化比例已經達到大概六、七成以上了。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:33:00.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:33:07.245000+08:00","text":"針對剛剛講到這些技術缺口，我們工研院也已經跟中光電等一些業者組成一個技術研發的聯盟，大家一起就這些技術缺口趕快補齊。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:33:07.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:33:46.306000+08:00","text":"次長講到中光電，因為剛剛口口聲聲都說需要長期穩定的訂單，我其實要在這裡特別提醒，國防預算支出是要滿足我們戰力的形成，它是為了讓我們的作戰需求，甚至是讓我們國家安全有一定的保障，任何武器裝備到位的時候都應該符合作戰需求，這是國防預算編列很重要的一個目的。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:33:47.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:33:50.887000+08:00","text":"針對特別預算，為什麼我們認為它已經到浮濫的地步？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:33:51.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:34:05.858000+08:00","text":"它甚至……我們等一下來討論一下，因為我們國防部版的無人載具預算編了2,100億，它很大的一個目的都說要發展國防產業，還有建立我們自己的戰力。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:34:06.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:34:14.587000+08:00","text":"可是我們來看看，目前我們國內廠商有哪些具備相當的能力？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:34:14.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:34:15.709000+08:00","text":"可不可以舉幾個例子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:34:17.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:34:20.426000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實我們無人機產業聯盟裡……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:34:20.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:34:22.728000+08:00","text":"你剛剛提到一家了，還有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:34:23.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:34:49.180000+08:00","text":"在動力模組裡，像螺旋槳的部分，像臺中精密鋼模、安能；電池的部分有能元科技、有量；馬達的部分有東元、力山、富田；引擎的部分有宇多田、豐兆、海威、台擎等，這邊其實有相當多廠商，包括剛才我提到267家廠商，其實他們目前都已經投入這樣的研發能量……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:34:49.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:34:53.822000+08:00","text":"我們要的不是這樣零散的廠商，我們現在來討論好了。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:34:55.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:35:03.565000+08:00","text":"我想請教，顯然你沒有辦法把那些廠商講出來，你剛剛講有一家廠商是可以整機賣出去的，就是你剛剛提到中光電。","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:35:03.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:35:07.026000+08:00","text":"我現在要請教國防部顧部長……次長，有要補充嗎？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:35:08.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:35:11.249000+08:00","text":"如果是整機的部分，像雷虎、中光電、佳世達、神耀、經緯、自強、長榮、智飛、擎壤等這些公司……","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:35:11.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:35:11.429000+08:00","text":"你唸了很多。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T13:35:11.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:35:11.589000+08:00","text":"非常多。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:35:11.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:35:13.711000+08:00","text":"我想要請教顧部長，過去我們在這些預算的運用上，希望可以驗證以後再來採購，因為我們過去一直以來有很多很多失敗的案例。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:35:13.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:36:06.029000+08:00","text":"我舉幾個例子，先講軍用商規五型六類的好了，剛剛次長唸到的，不管長榮航太、智飛科技、中光電、神通及雷虎等這幾家廠商，我們先來看看去年買的艦載型監偵無人機、陸用監偵無人機、監偵型無人機、微型無人機、目獲型無人機、戰術型無人機。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:36:06.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:36:32.160000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，我們之前去考察的時候，部長應該也知道我們的監偵型無人機及微型無人機這兩型，我們在現場有看到，一架要六十幾萬、八十幾萬，它之所以很貴是因為它有抗干擾的能力，可是我們在現場看到它飛行不到3秒就馬上掉落，失去自主飛行的能力。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:36:32.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:36:33.262000+08:00","text":"我們花這樣的錢是值得的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:36:39.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:36:39.808000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，我想它測試一定是按照標準……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:36:39.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:36:40.028000+08:00","text":"所以你們規格怎麼訂的？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:36:40.028000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:36:41.028000+08:00","text":"規格一定是按照作戰需求……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:36:40.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:36:40.609000+08:00","text":"因為它之所以貴，今天如果它只是監偵……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:36:40.609000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:36:41.609000+08:00","text":"還有敵情的威脅。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:36:40.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:00.885000+08:00","text":"主任，今天這個規格你訂出來，它就必須要有抗干擾的能力，所以它一架高達六十幾萬、八十幾萬。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:37:00.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:19.298000+08:00","text":"剛剛次長說我們賣給沙烏地阿拉伯，可能是軍用的機型，我們一架只賣50萬，但我們採購自己國內的一架六十幾萬、八十幾萬，它很快就受到干擾，馬上失去自主飛行能力。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:37:19.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:21.098000+08:00","text":"如果未來你們編了2,100億，像這樣的無人機你還可以繼續買嗎？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:37:21.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:21.098000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:37:21.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:32.903000+08:00","text":"報告委員，您剛剛講的那個可能規格不一樣，賣出去的和我們自己國防部需求的規格不一樣……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:37:32.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:33.924000+08:00","text":"它也是軍用的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:37:33.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:34.924000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，但是規格有差……","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:37:34.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:39.008000+08:00","text":"我再次提醒，主任，聽清楚我剛剛講的，之前我們洪召委也要過一些相關的資料，他說在美國可能只要一萬多塊就買到，可是我們得標的廠商，一架要七萬多。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:37:54.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:55.658000+08:00","text":"老實說足球無人機，如果是自己組裝連1萬都不用，而且還可以參加世界級的比賽。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:37:55.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:37:58.600000+08:00","text":"所以就這個部分，我們現在不能信任的是，它用很高的價錢，而且在過去的驗證……我們現在不講沙烏地阿拉伯，我是說他們只買50萬，可是我們自己買六十幾萬、八十幾萬，並沒有達到且符合我們的作戰需求，它一下子就被干擾，連飛都不能飛。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:38:23.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:38:24.592000+08:00","text":"未來的2,100億還是繼續買這樣的東西嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:38:24.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:38:24.772000+08:00","text":"這是第一個。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:38:24.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:38:28.434000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，我再舉幾個例子，像我講的微型及艦載型都是剛剛次長說的，是跟中光電買的，一個買了十二億多，一個買了九億多，兩個加起來二十一億多，可是它沒有這樣的功能。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:38:28.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:39:08.592000+08:00","text":"第二個，有關無人機反制系統，我記得上一次我們在審預算的時候，我有凍結一筆4億元的預算，民進黨委員大肆撻伐，說我亂刪、凍預算、刻意政治操作，事實擺在眼前，也說我們阻礙國防、反對無人機。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:39:08.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:39:10.413000+08:00","text":"可是我們發現113年到115年，無人機反制系統是「創未來」得標。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:39:10.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:39:11.873000+08:00","text":"今年最後一年，他測了三次都沒有過，現在怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:39:22.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:39:24.771000+08:00","text":"我們後續會行政裁罰，第一個是解約……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:39:24.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:39:28.313000+08:00","text":"我們要的不是裁罰，你們一直跟我們說，你編列預算……聽完我的問題，你們一直在編很高額的預算，說這一定有戰力的需求，我們不能有戰力的空隙，所以我們用了很多手段去採購。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:39:28.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:39:53.306000+08:00","text":"可是113到115年，已經過了3年，今年最後一年，我們無人機反制系統並沒有拿到，而且還給他測3次的機會，這3年已經沒有反制系統，未來還要再花3年嗎？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:39:53.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:39:53.747000+08:00","text":"那你要跟誰買？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:39:53.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:39:54.727000+08:00","text":"我現在要特別強調，針對這項內容，我們要再次提醒。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:39:54.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:40:13.975000+08:00","text":"雖然時間到了，不過我還是強調要先驗證過去，再授權未來，不要口口聲聲……尤其民進黨委員在撻伐別人的時候，應先想想為什麼有這些情形。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:40:14.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:40:14.876000+08:00","text":"還好我們當時凍下來，不然錢如果花了，我們能拿到什麼？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:40:29.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:40:46.478000+08:00","text":"報告委員，請容許我公開說明一下，我針對無人機反制系統以幾點說明：第一，這個案子是依據政府採購法辦理，採公開、透明方式招標、邀商，這是第一點。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:40:46.478000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:40:47.719000+08:00","text":"第二，當時我們基於重視採購，為求慎重，最後……","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:40:47.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:40:48.259000+08:00","text":"主任，我沒有跟你談，你不需要講這個。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:40:48.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:40:53.280000+08:00","text":"你們已經花了三年時間給這家公司機會，我們失去戰力已經三年，這筆九億多預算已經編了三年，今年是最後一年，仍沒有成功，你們勢必還要採購一次，而我們這三年就是沒有無人機反制系統可以使用。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:40:53.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:41:15.287000+08:00","text":"現在我還要講，包括中科院過去的成果，如我們剛剛講到的五型六類，照我們看到的就是不能用，而且還要六十幾萬、八十幾萬。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:41:15.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:41:29.134000+08:00","text":"老實說，像那樣的規格，不到五萬塊就可以買到了，所以這是第一點要檢討的。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:41:29.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:41:29.915000+08:00","text":"第二，不要說無人機反制系統是依照採購法。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:41:29.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:41:32.115000+08:00","text":"你本來就應該買成熟的產品，難道無人機反制系統在全世界都沒有成熟的產品嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:41:32.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:41:32.996000+08:00","text":"你直接買成熟的，讓我們可以運用，這樣就好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:41:33.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:41:57.391000+08:00","text":"另外，中科院自己也做，到底好不好用，你們也必須做出證明與澄清，因為中科院其實花掉國家很多預算。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:41:57.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:42:13.486000+08:00","text":"所以針對這2,100億元，我們希望監督的方式是驗證過去，如果這些廠商能夠符合我們的作戰需求、能夠符合我們的標準，那當然可以這樣買；如果沒有，那我們不希望2,100億或2,400億就像水上泡影，丟了馬上就不見了。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:42:13.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:42:28.913000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們開放國內廠商產製，包含代理國外廠商產製也都可以，並沒有限制國內廠商。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:42:29.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:42:30.514000+08:00","text":"但不是要國防自主？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:42:30.514000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:42:31.514000+08:00","text":"其實這個案子是開放給所有具有履約能力的廠商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:42:31.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:42:36.997000+08:00","text":"如果我們被封鎖，這些東西要從哪裡來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:42:36.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:42:52.164000+08:00","text":"烏克蘭之所以撐得下去，第一就是因為他們的東西非常便宜，第二就是迭代非常迅速，其國內自製生產已經有這樣的量能，甚至有很多來自中國大陸。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:42:52.164000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:42:53.164000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們沒有限制廠商，只希望是成熟的產品。","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:42:52.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:00.367000+08:00","text":"我要講的是他們沒有非紅供應鏈，但我們有這樣的顧慮，而且只要還是可以從國外買，就不是國防自主。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:01.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:05.588000+08:00","text":"是，當時這個案子是開放的、全開放的，不論是國內廠商或國外廠商。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:06.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:09.249000+08:00","text":"這個案子最後是國內廠商，因為第一次招標只有1家……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:09.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:10.390000+08:00","text":"經濟部推薦的廠商，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:10.390000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:11.390000+08:00","text":"不是、不一樣，我們是公開的，這個案子沒有依據經濟部的推薦廠商。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:11.390000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:12.390000+08:00","text":"我沒有跟你討論個案，重點在於今天討論的是這麼高額的預算……不！","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:12.390000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:13.390000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我必須說明，不然記者朋友公開出去的資訊可能是錯的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:11.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:14.731000+08:00","text":"因為這個案子第一次招標……主任！","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:14.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:15.752000+08:00","text":"這部分你去跟媒體說明清楚，不是在這裡談。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:15.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:16.752000+08:00","text":"我們必須向委員報告、澄清，這是我們的責任。","quality":0},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:15.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:44.094000+08:00","text":"我要講的是創未來已經拿了無人機反制系統九億多，卻三年沒有戰力。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:44.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:50.398000+08:00","text":"沒有戰力的不只這個，還有火藥等，我們之前講的這些統統沒有符合標準。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:51.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:43:57.582000+08:00","text":"時間的關係，不好意思這樣耽誤，主席已經站起來，但我希望後續還是可以討論。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:43:57.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:44:09.066000+08:00","text":"國防部切記，你們的預算來自所有人民的納稅錢，應從過去失敗的例子去找經驗，不要把我們的錢全部都浪費掉。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"馬委員文君","start":"2026-07-16T13:44:09.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:44:25.771000+08:00","text":"經濟部也是，我們之所以希望由經濟部主導，是因為產業發展才可以補充所有量能，烏克蘭其實就是全面性產業發展，所以我還是希望大家可以共同朝這個方向努力。謝謝。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T13:44:26.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:44:26.691000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T13:44:26.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T13:44:26.911000+08:00","text":"謝謝馬文君委員、謝謝各位，上午辛苦了。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T13:44:27.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:44:31.125286+08:00","text":"現在休息，下午兩點半繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T13:44:31.425286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:44:32.568143+08:00","text":"休息（13時44分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T13:44:32.868143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:44:34.582429+08:00","text":"繼續開會（14時30分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T13:44:34.882429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:44:36.025286+08:00","text":"繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T13:44:36.325286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T13:44:39.753857+08:00","text":"接下來有請王安祥委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1047,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（13時28分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長還有經濟部何次長。"],["主席：請顧部長、何次長。最後一個委員質詢就好了，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好、次長好，今天辛苦了。大家還是非常關切我們今天所討論的議題，首先，我想要先請教經濟部，我們在112年就已經有編了442億統籌型無人載具的計畫，今天有很多位委員提到產業聚落的部分，經濟部其實也提到很多次，產業聚落跟產業鏈已經建構完成了嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們統籌型計畫是114年開始，目前我們盤點北中南的聚落其實已經成形，聚落如果有更多商機進來的話，我想參與者會更多。"],["馬委員文君：現在整個產業鏈已經算是完整的？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["馬委員文君：你們只是希望會更多，但它已經是完整的？"],["何次長晉滄：是，應該算是完整的。"],["馬委員文君：大概有多少廠商？"],["何次長晉滄：目前我們聯盟廠商總共有267家。"],["馬委員文君：267家，可不可以提供相關的資訊？"],["何次長晉滄：可以，我們可以提供相關的資訊。"],["馬委員文君：希望在這個禮拜之內提供，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：好。"],["馬委員文君：另外，它目前的成果如何？既然它都已經成型了，我們現在有些也有外銷，現在無人機相關成熟度及整個生產量能，你們覺得它的成果如何？"],["何次長晉滄：我跟委員報告一個數字，去年我們一整年無人機的出口值達到0.93億美金，大概有29億臺幣左右，今年1到6月已經達到2.12億美金了，所以大概66、67億臺幣。"],["馬委員文君：主要銷哪裡？"],["何次長晉滄：主要是捷克、沙烏地阿拉伯及波蘭這三個國家，是我們最主要……"],["馬委員文君：他們會用在哪裡？"],["何次長晉滄：可能有多種用途。"],["馬委員文君：都有？"],["何次長晉滄：對，都有。"],["馬委員文君：所以它在軍事用途上有很多嗎？是整機嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是整機。"],["馬委員文君：全部都是整機？"],["何次長晉滄：都是整機。"],["馬委員文君：去年出口的0.9億也是整機？"],["何次長晉滄：0.93億都是整機。"],["馬委員文君：是整機出去，全部都是在捷克……"],["何次長晉滄：去年最主要是捷克、波蘭及美國，今年1到6月是捷克、沙烏地阿拉伯及波蘭。"],["馬委員文君：沙烏地阿拉伯是最近一次比較大的一張訂單。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在說要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心，這很大的一個前提是要掌握關鍵零組件及國際認證的能力。針對這兩個部分，我們都有了嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：目前當然我們有一些關鍵零組件還是有一些缺口……"],["馬委員文君：缺口主要是什麼？"],["何次長晉滄：缺口最主要是，比方飛導控晶片、地控晶片、通訊及酬載等，這個部分我們現在透過法人科專、業界科專的部分，補助業界補足這樣的缺口。"],["馬委員文君：目前顯然是還沒有啦！因為在科專的部分，目前在我們整機輸出的部分，這些零組件來源大部分都還是進口的。我們看到目前臺灣無人機產業還是在組裝的這個層級比較多，因為我們核心的零件剛剛有稍微提到，比如抗干擾導航、加密資料鏈、EO及IR光電模組、馬達推進系統及飛控等，這個部分我們可能還是需要仰賴外部資源甚至進口。我們要建立可信的供應鏈，就必須投入航電、光電、資料鏈、動力等關鍵模組的自主化。可是我們目前最缺的也是這個，如果這些你自己做不到，我們沒有辦法提到我們想要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心。針對這個部分，次長認不認同？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們現在中型及小型無人機的國產化比例已經達到大概六、七成以上了。針對剛剛講到這些技術缺口，我們工研院也已經跟中光電等一些業者組成一個技術研發的聯盟，大家一起就這些技術缺口趕快補齊。"],["馬委員文君：次長講到中光電，因為剛剛口口聲聲都說需要長期穩定的訂單，我其實要在這裡特別提醒，國防預算支出是要滿足我們戰力的形成，它是為了讓我們的作戰需求，甚至是讓我們國家安全有一定的保障，任何武器裝備到位的時候都應該符合作戰需求，這是國防預算編列很重要的一個目的。針對特別預算，為什麼我們認為它已經到浮濫的地步？它甚至……我們等一下來討論一下，因為我們國防部版的無人載具預算編了2,100億，它很大的一個目的都說要發展國防產業，還有建立我們自己的戰力。可是我們來看看，目前我們國內廠商有哪些具備相當的能力？可不可以舉幾個例子？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實我們無人機產業聯盟裡……"],["馬委員文君：你剛剛提到一家了，還有沒有？"],["何次長晉滄：在動力模組裡，像螺旋槳的部分，像臺中精密鋼模、安能；電池的部分有能元科技、有量；馬達的部分有東元、力山、富田；引擎的部分有宇多田、豐兆、海威、台擎等，這邊其實有相當多廠商，包括剛才我提到267家廠商，其實他們目前都已經投入這樣的研發能量……"],["馬委員文君：我們要的不是這樣零散的廠商，我們現在來討論好了。我想請教，顯然你沒有辦法把那些廠商講出來，你剛剛講有一家廠商是可以整機賣出去的，就是你剛剛提到中光電。我現在要請教國防部顧部長……次長，有要補充嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：如果是整機的部分，像雷虎、中光電、佳世達、神耀、經緯、自強、長榮、智飛、擎壤等這些公司……"],["馬委員文君：你唸了很多。"],["何次長晉滄：非常多。"],["馬委員文君：我想要請教顧部長，過去我們在這些預算的運用上，希望可以驗證以後再來採購，因為我們過去一直以來有很多很多失敗的案例。我舉幾個例子，先講軍用商規五型六類的好了，剛剛次長唸到的，不管長榮航太、智飛科技、中光電、神通及雷虎等這幾家廠商，我們先來看看去年買的艦載型監偵無人機、陸用監偵無人機、監偵型無人機、微型無人機、目獲型無人機、戰術型無人機。我舉個例子，我們之前去考察的時候，部長應該也知道我們的監偵型無人機及微型無人機這兩型，我們在現場有看到，一架要六十幾萬、八十幾萬，它之所以很貴是因為它有抗干擾的能力，可是我們在現場看到它飛行不到3秒就馬上掉落，失去自主飛行的能力。我們花這樣的錢是值得的嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：向委員報告，我想它測試一定是按照標準……"],["馬委員文君：所以你們規格怎麼訂的？"],["趙主任亞平：規格一定是按照作戰需求……"],["馬委員文君：因為它之所以貴，今天如果它只是監偵……"],["趙主任亞平：還有敵情的威脅。"],["馬委員文君：主任，今天這個規格你訂出來，它就必須要有抗干擾的能力，所以它一架高達六十幾萬、八十幾萬。剛剛次長說我們賣給沙烏地阿拉伯，可能是軍用的機型，我們一架只賣50萬，但我們採購自己國內的一架六十幾萬、八十幾萬，它很快就受到干擾，馬上失去自主飛行能力。如果未來你們編了2,100億，像這樣的無人機你還可以繼續買嗎？可以嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，您剛剛講的那個可能規格不一樣，賣出去的和我們自己國防部需求的規格不一樣……"],["馬委員文君：它也是軍用的……"],["趙主任亞平：沒有錯，但是規格有差……"],["馬委員文君：我再次提醒，主任，聽清楚我剛剛講的，之前我們洪召委也要過一些相關的資料，他說在美國可能只要一萬多塊就買到，可是我們得標的廠商，一架要七萬多。老實說足球無人機，如果是自己組裝連1萬都不用，而且還可以參加世界級的比賽。所以就這個部分，我們現在不能信任的是，它用很高的價錢，而且在過去的驗證……我們現在不講沙烏地阿拉伯，我是說他們只買50萬，可是我們自己買六十幾萬、八十幾萬，並沒有達到且符合我們的作戰需求，它一下子就被干擾，連飛都不能飛。未來的2,100億還是繼續買這樣的東西嗎？這是第一個。因為時間的關係，我再舉幾個例子，像我講的微型及艦載型都是剛剛次長說的，是跟中光電買的，一個買了十二億多，一個買了九億多，兩個加起來二十一億多，可是它沒有這樣的功能。","第二個，有關無人機反制系統，我記得上一次我們在審預算的時候，我有凍結一筆4億元的預算，民進黨委員大肆撻伐，說我亂刪、凍預算、刻意政治操作，事實擺在眼前，也說我們阻礙國防、反對無人機。可是我們發現113年到115年，無人機反制系統是「創未來」得標。今年最後一年，他測了三次都沒有過，現在怎麼辦？"],["趙主任亞平：我們後續會行政裁罰，第一個是解約……"],["馬委員文君：我們要的不是裁罰，你們一直跟我們說，你編列預算……聽完我的問題，你們一直在編很高額的預算，說這一定有戰力的需求，我們不能有戰力的空隙，所以我們用了很多手段去採購。可是113到115年，已經過了3年，今年最後一年，我們無人機反制系統並沒有拿到，而且還給他測3次的機會，這3年已經沒有反制系統，未來還要再花3年嗎？那你要跟誰買？我現在要特別強調，針對這項內容，我們要再次提醒。雖然時間到了，不過我還是強調要先驗證過去，再授權未來，不要口口聲聲……尤其民進黨委員在撻伐別人的時候，應先想想為什麼有這些情形。還好我們當時凍下來，不然錢如果花了，我們能拿到什麼？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，請容許我公開說明一下，我針對無人機反制系統以幾點說明：第一，這個案子是依據政府採購法辦理，採公開、透明方式招標、邀商，這是第一點。第二，當時我們基於重視採購，為求慎重，最後……"],["馬委員文君：主任，我沒有跟你談，你不需要講這個。你們已經花了三年時間給這家公司機會，我們失去戰力已經三年，這筆九億多預算已經編了三年，今年是最後一年，仍沒有成功，你們勢必還要採購一次，而我們這三年就是沒有無人機反制系統可以使用。現在我還要講，包括中科院過去的成果，如我們剛剛講到的五型六類，照我們看到的就是不能用，而且還要六十幾萬、八十幾萬。老實說，像那樣的規格，不到五萬塊就可以買到了，所以這是第一點要檢討的。","第二，不要說無人機反制系統是依照採購法。你本來就應該買成熟的產品，難道無人機反制系統在全世界都沒有成熟的產品嗎？你直接買成熟的，讓我們可以運用，這樣就好了。另外，中科院自己也做，到底好不好用，你們也必須做出證明與澄清，因為中科院其實花掉國家很多預算。所以針對這2,100億元，我們希望監督的方式是驗證過去，如果這些廠商能夠符合我們的作戰需求、能夠符合我們的標準，那當然可以這樣買；如果沒有，那我們不希望2,100億或2,400億就像水上泡影，丟了馬上就不見了。"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，我們開放國內廠商產製，包含代理國外廠商產製也都可以，並沒有限制國內廠商。"],["馬委員文君：但不是要國防自主？"],["趙主任亞平：其實這個案子是開放給所有具有履約能力的廠商。"],["馬委員文君：如果我們被封鎖，這些東西要從哪裡來？烏克蘭之所以撐得下去，第一就是因為他們的東西非常便宜，第二就是迭代非常迅速，其國內自製生產已經有這樣的量能，甚至有很多來自中國大陸。"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，我們沒有限制廠商，只希望是成熟的產品。"],["馬委員文君：我要講的是他們沒有非紅供應鏈，但我們有這樣的顧慮，而且只要還是可以從國外買，就不是國防自主。"],["趙主任亞平：是，當時這個案子是開放的、全開放的，不論是國內廠商或國外廠商。這個案子最後是國內廠商，因為第一次招標只有1家……"],["馬委員文君：經濟部推薦的廠商，是不是？"],["趙主任亞平：不是、不一樣，我們是公開的，這個案子沒有依據經濟部的推薦廠商。"],["馬委員文君：我沒有跟你討論個案，重點在於今天討論的是這麼高額的預算……"],["趙主任亞平：不！報告委員，我必須說明，不然記者朋友公開出去的資訊可能是錯的。因為這個案子第一次招標……"],["馬委員文君：主任！這部分你去跟媒體說明清楚，不是在這裡談。"],["趙主任亞平：我們必須向委員報告、澄清，這是我們的責任。"],["馬委員文君：我要講的是創未來已經拿了無人機反制系統九億多，卻三年沒有戰力。沒有戰力的不只這個，還有火藥等，我們之前講的這些統統沒有符合標準。","時間的關係，不好意思這樣耽誤，主席已經站起來，但我希望後續還是可以討論。國防部切記，你們的預算來自所有人民的納稅錢，應從過去失敗的例子去找經驗，不要把我們的錢全部都浪費掉。經濟部也是，我們之所以希望由經濟部主導，是因為產業發展才可以補充所有量能，烏克蘭其實就是全面性產業發展，所以我還是希望大家可以共同朝這個方向努力。謝謝。"],["趙主任亞平：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員、謝謝各位，上午辛苦了。","現在休息，下午兩點半繼續開會。","休息（13時44分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來有請王安祥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}