{"error":false,"id":["170546"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170546,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170546","日期":"2026-07-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[19,35,20],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會","外交及國防委員會","財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-16T13:28:25+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-16T13:44:29+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c57864e9296d4775e49c8a87bd5630031ac734a26d834dc4f6d240afde84e98a99a31e873eea2ed35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"13:28:25 - 13:44:29","會議時間":"2026-07-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：\n一、\t行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n三、\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案。\n四、\t本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案」案。(僅詢答)(以上各案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.87784375,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.945343750000001,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.14784375,"end":8.282843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.24471875,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.590343750000002,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.454718750000001,"end":15.707843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.775343750000001,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.14659375,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.402843750000002,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.99346875,"end":56.680343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.680343750000006,"end":56.697218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.71409375,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.321593750000005,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.32471875,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.82596875,"end":74.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.06159375,"end":84.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.37659375000001,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.13534375,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.97034375000001,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.94471875,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.20284375000001,"end":118.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.93221875,"end":122.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.88096875000001,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.82534375,"end":134.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.99721875,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.35159375,"end":136.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.35096875000002,"end":142.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.64159375,"end":146.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.89034375,"end":150.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.31534375,"end":152.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.14221875,"end":157.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.84596875,"end":157.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.89659375000002,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.03159375,"end":158.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.09909375,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.43221875,"end":159.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.15346875,"end":161.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.24159375000002,"end":167.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.25846875000002,"end":164.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.83596875,"end":171.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.22784375,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":189.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.45284375,"end":189.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.90846875000003,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.33846875,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.00471875000002,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.24409375000002,"end":203.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.17221875,"end":204.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.84284375000001,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.24346875,"end":212.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.82909375000003,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.61034375000003,"end":267.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.71909375,"end":274.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.24971875,"end":276.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.28721875,"end":279.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.15596875,"end":280.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.15159375,"end":283.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.59846875,"end":286.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.87221875,"end":345.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.66471875,"end":350.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.65534375000004,"end":356.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.45221875000004,"end":357.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.92034375000003,"end":362.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.84346875,"end":365.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.86409375000005,"end":367.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.48409375,"end":369.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.20534375,"end":370.55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麻煩請副部長還有經濟部何次長最後一個就好 好不好"},{"start":24.344,"end":52.173,"text":"部長好 次長好今天辛苦了 不過大家還是非常關切我們今天所討論的這個相關的議題首先我想要先請教經濟部因為我們在112年就已經有編了442億統籌型的這些相關危險載具的這個計畫那這個今天有很多委員提到產業聚落的部分那經濟部其實也提到很多次我想這個產業"},{"start":53.896,"end":56.289,"text":"產業聚落跟產業鏈已經建構完成了嗎"},{"start":57.612,"end":72.701,"text":"跟委員報告我們是從昨天計劃是114年開始那目前我們盤點北中南的這個聚落其實已經成型但是這個聚落也會慢慢會有更多如果有更多的商機進來的話我想參與者會更多那現在的那個整個產業鏈已經是比較算是完整的你們只是希望它會更多它已經是完整的"},{"start":83.747,"end":101.283,"text":"是 應該是大概有多少廠商目前我們聯盟廠商總共有267家267家可不可以提供相關的資訊可以 我們可以提供相關的資訊我們希望在這個禮拜之內提供好不好那另外就是它目前的成果如何"},{"start":101.963,"end":108.811,"text":"因為你既然它都已經成型了嘛我們現在有些也有外銷那我們現在無人機的這相關的成熟度還有這些整個生產的這些量能我們覺得它的成果如何我跟委員報告一個數字就是說"},{"start":119.043,"end":138.745,"text":"去年我們一整年無人機的這個出口值達到0.93億美金大概有29億台幣左右那今年1到6月已經達到2.12億美金了所以大概66 67億主要銷哪裡主要銷哪裡主要是捷克沙烏地阿拉伯跟"},{"start":139.426,"end":166.943,"text":"波蘭這三個國家他們會用在哪裡可能有多種用途都有所以他在軍事用途上面有很多嗎是整機嗎是整機全部都是整機去年的0.9億也是整機0.93是整機沒關係多少是整機整機出去全部都是在捷克然後去年的話最主要是捷克波蘭美國"},{"start":167.904,"end":185.738,"text":"那今年一到六月是捷克、沙烏地阿拉伯跟波蘭沙烏地阿拉伯是最近一次一張比較大的單那我們現在說要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心這個很大的一個前提就是要掌握關鍵領土鍵跟國際認證的能力這兩個部分我們都有了嗎"},{"start":190.342,"end":203.637,"text":"目前當然我們有一些關鍵的零組件還是有一些缺口缺口主要是什麼缺口最主要是比方說地導控的這些這個非導控的晶片地控晶片還有通訊 籌載"},{"start":205.598,"end":233.134,"text":"這個部分那這個部分我們是現在透過法人科專業界科專的部分補助業界來目前顯然是還沒有啦因為你科專的這個部分我們看目前在我們整機輸出的時候這些來源大部分都還是進口的我們看到台灣無人機產業目前還是在組裝的這個層級比較多因為我們核心的零件剛剛有稍微提到比如說抗干擾導航還有加密資料鏈"},{"start":234.696,"end":239.818,"text":"EO跟IR光片模組馬達推進系統飛控等等其實這個部分其實我們可能都還很多很多是需要外部的資源甚至進口那我們要建立可信的供應鏈就必須投入在航電光電資料鏈動力等關鍵模組的這個自主化可是我們現在目前最缺的也是這個所以如果這些你自己做不到"},{"start":261.244,"end":280.724,"text":"我們沒有辦法提到我們想要成為亞洲民主供應鏈中心這個部分次長認不認同其實跟我們報告我們現在中型跟小型無人機的國產化比例已經達到大概六七成以上了那我們針對這些剛剛講到技術缺口我們的供應業也已經跟像中光電一些業者"},{"start":281.204,"end":283.126,"text":"他們也組成一個技術研發的聯盟大家一起來就這些技術缺口趕快來補齊好 次長講到中光電我們現在請教因為剛剛我們口口聲聲都說需要長期穩定的這個訂單我們其實要在這裡特別提醒"},{"start":302.362,"end":327.687,"text":"國防預算的支出是要滿足我們戰力的形成他是為了讓我們的作戰需求或者甚至我們的國家安全是有一定的保障任何武器裝備到位的時候都應該符合作戰需求這是國防預算編列的很重要的一個目的所以特別預算為什麼我們認為他已經到腐爛的地步他甚至我們等一下來討論一下因為我們這個這個國防"},{"start":332.509,"end":350.729,"text":"國防部版的這個無人仔劇編了2100億他很大的一個目的都說要發展國防產業還有建立我們自己的戰力可是我們來看看目前我們國內的廠商有哪些是具備相當的能力可不可以舉幾個例子"},{"start":352.024,"end":367.054,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個我們的無人機的這個產業聯盟你剛剛提到一家了嘛那還有沒有動力模組這個像螺旋槳螺槳的部分像台中甘摩安能那電池的部分有能源科技有量"},{"start":367.974,"end":384.28,"text":"馬達的部分有東元、麗山、富田引擎的部分有宇多田、豐造、海威、台禽等等這邊其實有相當多的廠商就包括剛我提到267家的廠商其實他們目前都已經投入這樣的一個"},{"start":384.5,"end":402.026,"text":"我們要的不是你這樣零散的廠商我們現在來說好了我們現在我想請教因為顯然那個廠商你沒有辦法把他講出來你剛剛講一個嘛就是他可以整機賣出來的你剛剛提到中光電我現在要請教我們國防部顧不有要補充嗎"},{"start":403.767,"end":408.991,"text":"如果是整機的部分像雷虎、中光電、嘉士達、神藥、經緯、自強、長榮、自菲、晴朗等等你念了很多我想要請教我們顧部長因為我們在這些過去我們在這些預算的運用上面我們希望可以驗證以後再來採購因為我們一直以來我們在過去很多很多失敗的案例我舉幾個例子"},{"start":434.348,"end":450.258,"text":"先講我們軍用商規五行六類的好了剛剛市長念到的不管長榮航太、智飛科技、中光電還有神通、雷虎什麼這些很多的這幾家我們先來看看我們去年買的建載型"},{"start":451.258,"end":472.06,"text":"還有我們之前買的艦載型 艦載無人機 陸用艦載無人機 艦載型無人機 微型無人機 木落型無人機 戰術型無人機我舉個例子我們之前去考察的時候部長應該也知道我們的艦載型無人機 微型無人機這兩型我們在現場有看到他在"},{"start":473.121,"end":488.262,"text":"之所以很貴一架要六十幾萬八十幾萬它之所以很貴是因為它有抗干擾的能力可是我們在現場看到它不到三秒就馬上掉落沒有失去自主飛行的能力那我們花這樣的錢是值得的嗎"},{"start":494.548,"end":495.829,"text":"像委員報告這個我想這個測試他一定是按照標準所以我們規格怎麼訂的因為他之所以貴你今天如果他只是兼徵主任今天這個規格"},{"start":509.978,"end":517.166,"text":"你訂出來他就必須要有抗干擾的能力所以你如果他一架高達六十幾萬八十幾萬剛剛次長說我們賣給沙烏地阿拉伯他是可能軍用的我們一架只賣五十萬"},{"start":525.655,"end":536.779,"text":"可是我們自己採購自己國內的一架六十幾萬八十幾萬可是很快他就受到干擾馬上失去自主飛行能力如果未來你編了2100億像這樣子的無人機你還可以繼續買嗎報告委員您剛剛講的那個可能是規格不一樣"},{"start":544.921,"end":554.028,"text":"賣出去的和我們自己國安部的需求規格不一樣它也是軍用的我再次提醒你主要聽清楚我剛剛講的因為之前我們洪昭偉其實他也要過一些相關的資料他說在美國可能買到紙要一萬多塊可是我們的得標的廠商一架要七萬多"},{"start":569.858,"end":573.6,"text":"老實說足球無人機如果是自己組裝連1萬都不用而且還可以參加世界級的比賽所以就這個部分我們現在不能信任的是他用很高的價錢而且你在過去的驗證我們現在講的我們不講沙烏地阿拉伯是說他只買50萬可是我們自己買60幾萬80幾萬並沒有達到我們的符合我們的作戰需求他一下子就被干擾你連飛都不能飛"},{"start":598.331,"end":604.774,"text":"所以為了2100億你還是繼續買這樣子的東西嗎這是第一點因為時間的關係我在舉幾個像我講的微型跟建載型都是剛剛次長說的中光電跟中光電買的一個買了12億多一個買了9億多兩個加起來21億多可是他沒有這樣子的功能那第二個我們看到無人機反制系統我記得民進黨的委員上一次我們在"},{"start":628.266,"end":646.873,"text":"省預算的時候 我有凍結一筆四億的預算民進黨的委員大肆撻伐然後說我亂煽動預算 刻意政治操作事實擺在眼前 說我們阻礙國防反對無人機可是我們發現這個113年到115年無人機反制系統 創未來得標今年最後一年 他測了三次都沒有過那現在怎麼辦"},{"start":657.55,"end":664.454,"text":"我們會後續行政裁罰第一個我們要的不是裁罰你們一直跟我們說你編列預算聽完我的問題你們一直在編很高額的預算說這一定有戰力的需求我們不能有戰力的空隙所以我們用了很多的手段去採購可是113到115已經最後一年過了三年我們無人機反制系統並沒有拿到"},{"start":685.625,"end":689.747,"text":"而且還給他撤了三次的機會所以這三年已經沒有這個反制系統那你未來還要再花三年嗎那你要跟誰買我們現在要說的在這裡要特別強調我們這個內容裡面我們要在這裡再次提醒時間"},{"start":704.814,"end":709.876,"text":"到了 不過我們要特別提到說我們還是要強調先驗證過去再授權未來不要口口聲聲 尤其民進黨的委員在撻伐別人的時候先想想為什麼這些還好我們當時有動下來不然錢如果花了那我們拿到什麼"},{"start":724.048,"end":742.299,"text":"委員請容許委員讓我這邊做公開說明一下我想這個無人機反制系統我幾點來說明第一個這個案子我們是依據政府採購法來辦理採公開透明的方式來招商招標來邀商第一個第二個"},{"start":742.719,"end":748.901,"text":"主任我沒有要跟你 主任主任你不要不需要講這個你們已經花了三年的時間給這一家公司這個機會我們失去戰力已經三年我們這個預算9億多的預算已經編了三年今年最後一年他沒有成功你勢必還要再採購一次我們這三年就是沒有無人機的反制系統可以使用現在我要再講的是"},{"start":767.665,"end":771.427,"text":"還包括你未來我們在中科院過去的這些成果我們剛剛講到的你五行六類我們看到他就是不能用而且你還有六十幾萬八十幾萬老實說如果像那樣子的規格他不到五萬塊就可以買到了"},{"start":783.154,"end":788.856,"text":"所以這是第一個我們要檢討的第二個無人機反制系統不要說你是依照什麼採購法你本來就應該買成熟的產品無人機反制系統在我們全世界沒有這樣成熟產品嗎你直接買成熟的讓我們可以運用這樣就好了另外中科院自己也有做"},{"start":804.261,"end":814.734,"text":"那他到底好不好用 你們也必須要做出一個證明跟澄清因為中台院其實花掉我們國家很多的預算所以2100億我們希望要監督的是驗證過去 如果這些廠商他能夠"},{"start":822.463,"end":828.646,"text":"符合我們的作戰需求能夠符合我們的標準那你當然可以這樣買如果沒有那我們不希望2100億或2400億就像水上的泡影馬上丟了馬上就不見了我們開放國內廠商"},{"start":838.95,"end":862.263,"text":"產制包含他代理國外廠商產制都可以並沒有限制國內的廠商那你不是要國防自主那你如果我們被封鎖的時候我們的這些我們這些東西要從哪裡來烏克蘭之所以能夠撐得下去第一就是他的東西非常便宜第二就是他的迭代非常迅速他是國內自製生產他已經有這樣的量能"},{"start":863.183,"end":886.25,"text":"他有很多分子都來自於中國大陸我們要講的是他們沒有飛鴻供應鏈我們有這樣的顧慮可是你還是可以從國外買的時候你就不是國防自主所以這個部分是開放的全開放的不管是國內的廠商或國外的廠商因為這個案子最後是國內廠商因為第一次招標經濟部推薦的廠商是不是經濟部推薦的廠商是不是不是不是這個不一樣"},{"start":889.711,"end":890.972,"text":"主任 這個部分你去跟媒體說明清楚這個不是在這 我要講的是"},{"start":912.671,"end":933.442,"text":"到未來他拿了我們無人機反制系統已經9億多3年沒有站立我們沒有站立的不止這個還有你的火藥我們之前講的這些通通沒有符合我們的標準時間有關係 不好意思擔忽這樣主席已經站起來我們在後續我們還是希望可以討論可是國防部切記你們的預算來自於"},{"start":937.324,"end":961.911,"text":"所有人民的納稅錢從你過去失敗的例子去找經驗不要把我們的錢全部都浪費掉經濟部也是因為我們之所以希望是經濟部來主導是因為產業發展才可以去補充我們所有量能烏克蘭其實它就是全面性的這樣子的一個產業發展所以這個部分我們還是希望大家可以共同朝這個方向努力謝謝不好意思主席謝謝委員好謝謝馬文君委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}