{"error":false,"id":["170551"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170551,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170551","日期":"2026-07-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[19,35,20],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會","外交及國防委員會","財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-16T14:39:24+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-16T14:48:50+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c57864e9296d477519334df8ba4b79b51ac734a26d834dc4f6d240afde84e98aac88c721d118b9685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"14:39:24 - 14:48:50","會議時間":"2026-07-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：\n一、\t行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n三、\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案。\n四、\t本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案」案。(僅詢答)(以上各案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.599093750000002,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.67471875,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.10909375,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.719718750000002,"end":27.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.313468750000002,"end":39.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.10909375,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.563468750000006,"end":63.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.548468750000005,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.71596875,"end":73.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.40346875,"end":75.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.41159375000001,"end":75.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.25534375000001,"end":79.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.37721875000001,"end":80.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.86221875000001,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.43159375,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.57034375,"end":88.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.16909375,"end":89.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.46846875,"end":91.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.06721875000001,"end":93.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.68721875,"end":97.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.78784375000001,"end":99.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.88909375,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.36034375000001,"end":114.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.86534375000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.14721875000001,"end":121.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.83471875000001,"end":128.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.69471875,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.78721875,"end":138.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.04721875,"end":144.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.08846875,"end":149.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.45909375000002,"end":150.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.26471875000001,"end":151.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.32784375,"end":160.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.11971875,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.73971875,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.29221875000002,"end":177.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.57284375,"end":179.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.64846875,"end":183.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.51284375,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.47034375,"end":188.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.49096875,"end":200.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.02909375000002,"end":205.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.34909375,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.11659375000002,"end":208.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.70721875,"end":212.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.55471875,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.59221875,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.40221875,"end":221.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.75159375,"end":224.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.58221875,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.90284375000002,"end":229.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.22346875000002,"end":226.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.86846875,"end":231.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.58971875,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.38659375,"end":235.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.97721875000002,"end":237.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.58034375000003,"end":238.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.64346875,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.35971875,"end":253.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.84784375,"end":254.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.67471875,"end":255.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.67034375000003,"end":260.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.31096875000003,"end":280.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.59471875,"end":305.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.60346875000005,"end":309.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3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經濟部 國防部有請好 請經濟部跟國防部"},{"start":20.745,"end":45.479,"text":"兩位午安 這個我們耐心的總統7月9號出席這個台灣卓越無人機海外商機大聯盟大會室的這個活動說要將台灣打造成亞洲無人機產業中心成立這樣一個目標 透過整合產官學成立國家隊 又來了讓台灣在供應鏈上佔有關鍵地位那麼經濟部跟工研院會持續的為台灣無人機產業推動包含飛鴻供應鏈 還有資訊安全等等認證工作"},{"start":48.681,"end":74.969,"text":"這些工作總統特別強調非常重要因為飛航空知衛星導航等等都是很機敏的部分所以說一定要有飛鴻供應鏈的認證政府也會來協助相關的一些認證那現在要打造無人機國家隊請問經濟部是不是針對台灣無人機產業在國際上整個的發展性我們在供應鏈中的地位會遇到什麼樣的挑戰跟機會有沒有完整的研究"},{"start":76.289,"end":94.055,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們現在的機會就是飛鴻因為現在很多民族陣營國家他們要的就是飛鴻的產品那台灣就是必須要把握住這次的這個機會能夠在這個飛鴻供應鏈的這個產制上面我們要能夠讓台灣的廠商要能夠提升他的這個飛鴻"},{"start":98.256,"end":114.611,"text":"所以我講你經濟部的角色非常重要我等一下再講為什麼特別重要因為我為什麼講說問你在產業鏈裡面的一個角色因為這無人機一台無人機大家講說這是一個機器但它其實這大家也知道嘛在這個全球化的時代這每一個產品它其實背後是非常非常破碎的"},{"start":115.311,"end":143.67,"text":"這個無人機產業從晶片、PCB、馬達、磁鐵、感測器、影像模組、通訊模組飛控韌體到雲端服務它可能都從不同的廠商來做提供嘛那你現在做的也許是做整合對不對但是這麼多的廠商比如說單就經濟的料耗來講好幾百個一台無人機還有好幾百個料耗那每一個背後可能又有好幾層的供應商所以這是供應鏈的一個狀況我現在要問這個次長剛剛直接講了嘛說我們的機會就在於所謂的飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":145.171,"end":159.998,"text":"那我就問一問定義 因為我覺得這事要講 要玩玩真的要講就講清楚這個台翔航太工業的總經理曾經投書講說業者常常提的問題啊就現在無人機要發展的問題啊說晶片設計在歐美"},{"start":161.238,"end":176.35,"text":"封測在中國大陸它算不算飛鴻供應鏈呢馬達是台廠製造但是它的原料使用了中國大陸的原料它算不算是飛鴻供應鏈呢它的韌體開發用了國際的開源專案但是維護者如果這個工程師啊是陸級的工程師那它又算不算飛鴻供應鏈呢"},{"start":177.671,"end":199.614,"text":"因為這些東西它都講它是業界這個忠實反應的實際上的業界現實嘛好 但是這個東西跟我們政府高調的宣傳的飛鴻供應鏈跟你剛剛講的是我們的亮點它其實顯然在出現了一些衝突在這個場合我們在進入實質條文審查等等過程之前我覺得我們政府態度很明確的既然要飛鴻是不是要飛鴻到底剛剛講的這些算不算抵觸了飛鴻供應鏈的觀點 請回答"},{"start":201.395,"end":221.828,"text":"我跟委員報告這個飛鴻的產品的標準工程會已經有訂一套指引那我們目標就是2027年開始就要完全公務採購的無人機都要達到飛鴻的這樣的一個產品所以剛剛他講的這三項其實都抵觸了對不對也就是到2027之後就不能再出現這樣的狀況對 我們就是要follow這個工程會的指引"},{"start":226.31,"end":254.131,"text":"我之所以今天國防部站在旁邊原因就是這樣就曾經啊我們在討論國防產業發展條例的時候也出現過這樣子的一個辯證對不對當初在討論的時候這個19條啊院版當初的國防產業發展條例19條就有所謂的例外條款因為他是這樣說的他說這個軍品研發產自維修的關鍵零組件跟原料不得來自於大陸地區香港澳門或其居民團體法人機構等等"},{"start":255.171,"end":283.898,"text":"這個但經特殊需要經主管機關同意者不在此限也就是有一個後門條款有一個認定的這樣子的一個條款那這樣的條款今天也不是我講這個事而已當初在討論這個條款的時候包含現在都在網路上都新聞媒體上都赫赫有名的這兩位之前當初是立法委員的一位是現在的劉世芳部長當初他是立法委員一位是我們國外外交的同僚王定宇委員都針對這樣子的安排啊提出了強烈的質疑嘛"},{"start":284.358,"end":309.228,"text":"因為你講你現在要貫徹飛鴻供應鏈然後你今天又開一個後門有一個所謂的例外條款那不是很糟糕嗎這王定宇委員甚至講啊如果我們的武器到最後是可以有所謂的例外條款那這個武器萬一受到所謂的長臂管轄或者是受到所謂的卡脖子的這樣一個狀況的時候那我們的武器的取得跟產製等等它就會立刻陷入瓶頸這講法其實是有道理的嘛那麼有道理的時候就當然挑戰這樣的一個說法但是到了最後啊"},{"start":309.628,"end":332.784,"text":"到最後三讀的時候這個所謂的後門條款跟爆房條款它依然通過了國防部要不要講解一下為什麼我先跟我們報告一下也可以沒關係2027年之後就沒有這個所謂的後門條款或是您剛剛提到的這個附帶什麼的條件完全就是要這個費用的這個產品的認定是很絕對的對 國防部要補充一下嗎是"},{"start":334.858,"end":343.681,"text":"第一個就是當然我們會follow這個經濟部這邊所還有那個工程會那邊所訂出來的標準那至於我們的需求我請那個站櫃司司長做個說明好"},{"start":346.099,"end":366.311,"text":"基本上我們針對主要零件的這個部分採購是這邊它有一個一到五類的分級標準那只要跟資安通訊有關的東西那是絕對禁止的但是在過去的幾年之間我們可以看得到的是某一些重要的零件比如發生在美國F35"},{"start":368.452,"end":388.158,"text":"戰機的這個事情他們就爭論了很久那如果當初他主要是發動機上面的電磁鐵對 他出現了那個礦稀土嘛 其實大家都知道嘛所以那像這類的東西就必須要經過特別認證那這個也會由採購司這邊依照他的分類標準來做查查"},{"start":389.468,"end":414.699,"text":"你要補充嗎?國防採購室主任,現在委員在報告我們現在所有的採購的軍品,我們要分五類分五類也分級,包含禁原料、禁原件到禁廠牌那剛剛講的,以無人機為例無人機它是軍事用途,所以我們是禁到原件和廠牌都不行"},{"start":415.632,"end":436.244,"text":"這就很明確了那因為國防產業法的條例那是之前訂的但是我們在113年8月30號有訂了一個國軍採購禁用陸港澳產品認定及履約驗收指導做法那裡面清楚的明訂把剛剛我講的那五類啊明訂都非常清楚我先請經濟部再回來一下你看"},{"start":437.26,"end":454.993,"text":"我之所以要把這話講清楚的原因就在這個地方進一步講說這個未來會變成亮點好那你姑且講說有一個2027的標準但你旁邊這幾位國防部的這個當然也是基於務實的發展的考量他必須要做分級等等的一些配套的一些措施所以我是強烈建議政府在宣傳的時候這個不要胡說八道"},{"start":455.533,"end":484.352,"text":"因為顯然現實上有問題我之所以一定要把這問題提出來其實理路是一致的如果這樣子的一個安排或你們想要創造的亮點跟現實的產業鏈的現實現況產生嚴重的漢格跟衝突的時候或者是你讓北京有介入的風險的時候它其實立刻會造成整個產業鏈的打擊我們現在要投入大筆的資源花長期的計畫來做這件事情如果在中間遇到這樣的狀況這個風險政府是有責任要把它講清楚的今天只是詢答而已我們話大概講到這裡"},{"start":485.473,"end":511.919,"text":"對不對 無人機零組件到底使用如果我們現在在講 現在這一段的話相關的一些資料跟客觀的一些標準我要請這個相關的部會經濟部也好 國防部也好 會後先做一個提供經濟部也要跟國防部好好了解一下當初這個東西的來龍去脈是什麼不要說他講得很大聲實際上他其實我這裡要開後門 那裡要開後門而且我為什麼強調這個標準一定要客觀要清楚的原因是什麼如果到最後大家講這個東西講不下去還是要獲悉你說那我們交給主管機關來認證政府說我會來幫你認證"},{"start":514.5,"end":529.293,"text":"那我必須要講一句很不客氣的那不會變成有關係就沒關係嗎我跟你關係特別好的時候認證剛好就對我很有利對不對它反而影響了整個產業發展的公信力然後又造成了所謂是不是有綠油油等等的這樣一些質疑也好或者是批評也好"},{"start":529.993,"end":554.191,"text":"這些都會對於我們好好的發展無人機產業它造成負面的影響所以我們今天醜話一定要說在前頭嘛尤其是費用供應鏈的這一部分如何避免受到這個長臂管轄或者是影響你在這樣子的一個過程中你如何做一定的取捨標準怎麼樣透明而且客觀可以接受大家的檢驗這三個大目標啊其實是經濟部跟國防部今天會要把它整理好好不好在法條審理之前啊"},{"start":554.611,"end":565.275,"text":"要跟大部分的委員 我關心這個事的委員今天很多委員也有關心這個事嘛來做更詳細的溝通跟說明 可以嗎好 今天時間有限 我們就講到這裡就好 好啦 謝謝好 謝謝劉啟霖委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}