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經濟部 國防部有請好 請經濟部跟國防部"},{"start":20.745,"end":45.479,"text":"兩位午安 這個我們耐心的總統7月9號出席這個台灣卓越無人機海外商機大聯盟大會室的這個活動說要將台灣打造成亞洲無人機產業中心成立這樣一個目標 透過整合產官學成立國家隊 又來了讓台灣在供應鏈上佔有關鍵地位那麼經濟部跟工研院會持續的為台灣無人機產業推動包含飛鴻供應鏈 還有資訊安全等等認證工作"},{"start":48.681,"end":74.969,"text":"這些工作總統特別強調非常重要因為飛航空知衛星導航等等都是很機敏的部分所以說一定要有飛鴻供應鏈的認證政府也會來協助相關的一些認證那現在要打造無人機國家隊請問經濟部是不是針對台灣無人機產業在國際上整個的發展性我們在供應鏈中的地位會遇到什麼樣的挑戰跟機會有沒有完整的研究"},{"start":76.289,"end":94.055,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們現在的機會就是飛鴻因為現在很多民族陣營國家他們要的就是飛鴻的產品那台灣就是必須要把握住這次的這個機會能夠在這個飛鴻供應鏈的這個產制上面我們要能夠讓台灣的廠商要能夠提升他的這個飛鴻"},{"start":98.256,"end":114.611,"text":"所以我講你經濟部的角色非常重要我等一下再講為什麼特別重要因為我為什麼講說問你在產業鏈裡面的一個角色因為這無人機一台無人機大家講說這是一個機器但它其實這大家也知道嘛在這個全球化的時代這每一個產品它其實背後是非常非常破碎的"},{"start":115.311,"end":143.67,"text":"這個無人機產業從晶片、PCB、馬達、磁鐵、感測器、影像模組、通訊模組飛控韌體到雲端服務它可能都從不同的廠商來做提供嘛那你現在做的也許是做整合對不對但是這麼多的廠商比如說單就經濟的料耗來講好幾百個一台無人機還有好幾百個料耗那每一個背後可能又有好幾層的供應商所以這是供應鏈的一個狀況我現在要問這個次長剛剛直接講了嘛說我們的機會就在於所謂的飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":145.171,"end":159.998,"text":"那我就問一問定義 因為我覺得這事要講 要玩玩真的要講就講清楚這個台翔航太工業的總經理曾經投書講說業者常常提的問題啊就現在無人機要發展的問題啊說晶片設計在歐美"},{"start":161.238,"end":176.35,"text":"封測在中國大陸它算不算飛鴻供應鏈呢馬達是台廠製造但是它的原料使用了中國大陸的原料它算不算是飛鴻供應鏈呢它的韌體開發用了國際的開源專案但是維護者如果這個工程師啊是陸級的工程師那它又算不算飛鴻供應鏈呢"},{"start":177.671,"end":199.614,"text":"因為這些東西它都講它是業界這個忠實反應的實際上的業界現實嘛好 但是這個東西跟我們政府高調的宣傳的飛鴻供應鏈跟你剛剛講的是我們的亮點它其實顯然在出現了一些衝突在這個場合我們在進入實質條文審查等等過程之前我覺得我們政府態度很明確的既然要飛鴻是不是要飛鴻到底剛剛講的這些算不算抵觸了飛鴻供應鏈的觀點 請回答"},{"start":201.395,"end":221.828,"text":"我跟委員報告這個飛鴻的產品的標準工程會已經有訂一套指引那我們目標就是2027年開始就要完全公務採購的無人機都要達到飛鴻的這樣的一個產品所以剛剛他講的這三項其實都抵觸了對不對也就是到2027之後就不能再出現這樣的狀況對 我們就是要follow這個工程會的指引"},{"start":226.31,"end":254.131,"text":"我之所以今天國防部站在旁邊原因就是這樣就曾經啊我們在討論國防產業發展條例的時候也出現過這樣子的一個辯證對不對當初在討論的時候這個19條啊院版當初的國防產業發展條例19條就有所謂的例外條款因為他是這樣說的他說這個軍品研發產自維修的關鍵零組件跟原料不得來自於大陸地區香港澳門或其居民團體法人機構等等"},{"start":255.171,"end":283.898,"text":"這個但經特殊需要經主管機關同意者不在此限也就是有一個後門條款有一個認定的這樣子的一個條款那這樣的條款今天也不是我講這個事而已當初在討論這個條款的時候包含現在都在網路上都新聞媒體上都赫赫有名的這兩位之前當初是立法委員的一位是現在的劉世芳部長當初他是立法委員一位是我們國外外交的同僚王定宇委員都針對這樣子的安排啊提出了強烈的質疑嘛"},{"start":284.358,"end":309.228,"text":"因為你講你現在要貫徹飛鴻供應鏈然後你今天又開一個後門有一個所謂的例外條款那不是很糟糕嗎這王定宇委員甚至講啊如果我們的武器到最後是可以有所謂的例外條款那這個武器萬一受到所謂的長臂管轄或者是受到所謂的卡脖子的這樣一個狀況的時候那我們的武器的取得跟產製等等它就會立刻陷入瓶頸這講法其實是有道理的嘛那麼有道理的時候就當然挑戰這樣的一個說法但是到了最後啊"},{"start":309.628,"end":332.784,"text":"到最後三讀的時候這個所謂的後門條款跟爆房條款它依然通過了國防部要不要講解一下為什麼我先跟我們報告一下也可以沒關係2027年之後就沒有這個所謂的後門條款或是您剛剛提到的這個附帶什麼的條件完全就是要這個費用的這個產品的認定是很絕對的對 國防部要補充一下嗎是"},{"start":334.858,"end":343.681,"text":"第一個就是當然我們會follow這個經濟部這邊所還有那個工程會那邊所訂出來的標準那至於我們的需求我請那個站櫃司司長做個說明好"},{"start":346.099,"end":366.311,"text":"基本上我們針對主要零件的這個部分採購是這邊它有一個一到五類的分級標準那只要跟資安通訊有關的東西那是絕對禁止的但是在過去的幾年之間我們可以看得到的是某一些重要的零件比如發生在美國F35"},{"start":368.452,"end":388.158,"text":"戰機的這個事情他們就爭論了很久那如果當初他主要是發動機上面的電磁鐵對 他出現了那個礦稀土嘛 其實大家都知道嘛所以那像這類的東西就必須要經過特別認證那這個也會由採購司這邊依照他的分類標準來做查查"},{"start":389.468,"end":414.699,"text":"你要補充嗎?國防採購室主任,現在委員在報告我們現在所有的採購的軍品,我們要分五類分五類也分級,包含禁原料、禁原件到禁廠牌那剛剛講的,以無人機為例無人機它是軍事用途,所以我們是禁到原件和廠牌都不行"},{"start":415.632,"end":436.244,"text":"這就很明確了那因為國防產業法的條例那是之前訂的但是我們在113年8月30號有訂了一個國軍採購禁用陸港澳產品認定及履約驗收指導做法那裡面清楚的明訂把剛剛我講的那五類啊明訂都非常清楚我先請經濟部再回來一下你看"},{"start":437.26,"end":454.993,"text":"我之所以要把這話講清楚的原因就在這個地方進一步講說這個未來會變成亮點好那你姑且講說有一個2027的標準但你旁邊這幾位國防部的這個當然也是基於務實的發展的考量他必須要做分級等等的一些配套的一些措施所以我是強烈建議政府在宣傳的時候這個不要胡說八道"},{"start":455.533,"end":484.352,"text":"因為顯然現實上有問題我之所以一定要把這問題提出來其實理路是一致的如果這樣子的一個安排或你們想要創造的亮點跟現實的產業鏈的現實現況產生嚴重的漢格跟衝突的時候或者是你讓北京有介入的風險的時候它其實立刻會造成整個產業鏈的打擊我們現在要投入大筆的資源花長期的計畫來做這件事情如果在中間遇到這樣的狀況這個風險政府是有責任要把它講清楚的今天只是詢答而已我們話大概講到這裡"},{"start":485.473,"end":511.919,"text":"對不對 無人機零組件到底使用如果我們現在在講 現在這一段的話相關的一些資料跟客觀的一些標準我要請這個相關的部會經濟部也好 國防部也好 會後先做一個提供經濟部也要跟國防部好好了解一下當初這個東西的來龍去脈是什麼不要說他講得很大聲實際上他其實我這裡要開後門 那裡要開後門而且我為什麼強調這個標準一定要客觀要清楚的原因是什麼如果到最後大家講這個東西講不下去還是要獲悉你說那我們交給主管機關來認證政府說我會來幫你認證"},{"start":514.5,"end":529.293,"text":"那我必須要講一句很不客氣的那不會變成有關係就沒關係嗎我跟你關係特別好的時候認證剛好就對我很有利對不對它反而影響了整個產業發展的公信力然後又造成了所謂是不是有綠油油等等的這樣一些質疑也好或者是批評也好"},{"start":529.993,"end":554.191,"text":"這些都會對於我們好好的發展無人機產業它造成負面的影響所以我們今天醜話一定要說在前頭嘛尤其是費用供應鏈的這一部分如何避免受到這個長臂管轄或者是影響你在這樣子的一個過程中你如何做一定的取捨標準怎麼樣透明而且客觀可以接受大家的檢驗這三個大目標啊其實是經濟部跟國防部今天會要把它整理好好不好在法條審理之前啊"},{"start":554.611,"end":565.275,"text":"要跟大部分的委員 我關心這個事的委員今天很多委員也有關心這個事嘛來做更詳細的溝通跟說明 可以嗎好 今天時間有限 我們就講到這裡就好 好啦 謝謝好 謝謝劉啟霖委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:39:33.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:39:34.726000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請經濟部、國防部。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T14:39:36.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:39:36.969000+08:00","text":"請經濟部和國防部。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:39:44.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:39:45.025000+08:00","text":"兩位午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:39:47.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:40:00.814000+08:00","text":"賴清德總統7月9日出席臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟大會師活動時，宣示要將臺灣打造成亞洲無人機產業中心這樣的目標，透過整合產、官、學成立國家隊，又來了！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:40:01.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:40:24.685000+08:00","text":"讓臺灣在供應鏈上占有關鍵地位，經濟部與工研院會持續為臺灣的無人機產業推動包含非紅供應鏈還有資訊安全等等認證工作，這些工作總統特別強調非常重要，因為飛航控制、衛星導航等等都是很機敏的部分，所以一定要有非紅供應鏈的認證，政府也會協助相關的一些認證。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:40:25.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:40:38.949000+08:00","text":"現在要打造無人機國家隊，請問經濟部針對臺灣無人機產業在國際上整個的發展性，以及我們在供應鏈中的地位會遇到什麼樣的挑戰跟機會，有沒有完整的研究？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T14:40:40.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:40:58.035000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實我們現在的機會就是非紅，因為現在很多民主陣營國家，他們要的就是非紅的產品，所以臺灣必須要把握住這次的機會，在非紅供應鏈的產製上面，我們要讓臺灣的廠商能夠提升它非紅產品的能力。","quality":0.807},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:41:02.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:41:06.240000+08:00","text":"對，所以我認為經濟部的角色非常重要，我等一下再說為什麼特別重要。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:41:07.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:41:09.823000+08:00","text":"我為什麼問你在產業鏈裡面的角色？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:41:10.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:41:30.919000+08:00","text":"因為一臺無人機，大家都說這是一個機器，但是大家也知道在這個全球化的時代，每一個產品其實背後是非常非常破碎的，無人機產業從晶片、PCB、馬達、磁鐵、感測器、影像模組、通訊模組、飛控韌體到雲端服務，它可能都從不同的廠商提供，你在做的也許是整合，對不對？對。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:41:30.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:41:36.583000+08:00","text":"但是這麼多廠商，比如說單就經濟的料號來講，有好幾百個，對不對？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:41:36.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:41:43.187000+08:00","text":"一臺無人機有好幾百個料號，每一個背後可能又有好幾層供應商，這是現在供應鏈的狀況。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:41:43.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:41:45.789000+08:00","text":"我現在要問，次長剛剛直接講了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:41:46.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:41:54.713000+08:00","text":"說我們的機會就在於非紅供應鏈，那我就問一問定義，因為我覺得這件事情我們要講，要玩就玩真的，要講就講清楚。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:41:56.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:42:07.820000+08:00","text":"台翔航太工業的總經理曾經投書，他說業者常常提的問題，就是現在無人機要發展的問題，像晶片設計在歐美，封測在中國大陸，它算不算非紅供應鏈？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:42:08.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:42:13.084000+08:00","text":"馬達是臺廠製造，但是它使用了中國大陸的原料，它算不算是非紅供應鏈？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:42:13.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:42:20.330000+08:00","text":"它的韌體開發用了國際的開源專案，但是維護者如果是陸籍的工程師，那它又算不算非紅供應鏈？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:42:21.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:42:41.291000+08:00","text":"他講的這些東西都是忠實反映實際上的業界現實，但是這個東西跟我們政府高調宣傳的非紅供應鏈，你剛剛講這是我們的亮點，它其實顯然出現了一些衝突，所以在這個場合，我們在進入實質條文審查等等過程之前，我覺得政府的態度要明確，既然要非紅，是不是要非紅到底？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:42:42.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:42:43.513000+08:00","text":"剛剛講的這些算不算牴觸了非紅供應鏈的觀點？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:42:43.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:42:43.594000+08:00","text":"請回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T14:42:45.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:43:00.264000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，這個非紅產品的標準工程會已經有訂一套指引，我們的目標就是2027年開始，公務採購的無人機都要達到非紅的產品。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:43:00.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:43:03.226000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛他講的這三項其實都牴觸了，對不對？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:43:03.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:43:04.967000+08:00","text":"也就是到2027之後就不能再出現這樣的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T14:43:04.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:43:05.808000+08:00","text":"對，我們就是要follow工程會的指引。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:43:10.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:43:13.432000+08:00","text":"好，我之所以今天要國防部站在旁邊的原因就是這樣，就是曾經啊！","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:43:13.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:43:20.277000+08:00","text":"我們在討論國防產業發展條例的時候，也出現過這樣子的辨證，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:43:20.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:43:47.853000+08:00","text":"當初在討論的時候，當初院版的國防產業發展條例第十九條就有所謂的例外條款，它是這樣說的，軍品研發、產製、維修之關鍵零組件及原料，不得來自大陸地區、香港、澳門或其居民、團體、法人、機構等等，但因特殊需要經主管機關同意者，不在此限，也就是有一個後門條款，有一個認定的條款。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:43:48.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:44:15.001000+08:00","text":"這樣的條款，今天也不是我講這個事而已，當初在討論這個條款的時候，包含現在在網路上、新聞媒體上都赫赫有名的這兩位，之前是立法委員，一位是現在的劉世芳部長，當初他是立法委員，一位是我們國防外交的同僚王定宇委員，都針對這樣子的安排提出了強烈的質疑，因為你既然要貫徹非紅供應鏈，然後你今天又開後門，有一個所謂的例外條款，那不是很糟糕嗎？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:44:15.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:44:15.801000+08:00","text":"王定宇委員甚至講啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:44:16.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:44:28.306000+08:00","text":"如果我們的武器到最後可以有例外條款，那這個武器萬一受到所謂的長臂管轄或者是受到所謂卡脖子的狀況的時候，我們的武器取得跟產製等等就會立刻陷入瓶頸。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:44:28.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:44:40.553000+08:00","text":"這個講法其實是有道理的，有道理的時候他當然挑戰這樣的一個說法，但是到了最後三讀的時候，這個所謂的後門條款跟霸王條款依然通過，國防部要不要講解一下為什麼？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T14:44:40.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:44:41.573000+08:00","text":"我先跟委員報告一下。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:44:41.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:44:43.134000+08:00","text":"也可以，沒關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T14:44:43.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:44:52.941000+08:00","text":"2027年之後就沒有所謂的後門條款或是您剛剛提到附帶什麼樣的條件，絕對完全要非紅產品的認定。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:44:55.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:44:56.764000+08:00","text":"國防部要補充一下嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T14:44:58.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:45:07.661000+08:00","text":"第一個，當然我們會follow經濟部還有工程會所訂出來的標準，至於我們的需求，我請戰規司司長做個說明。好。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T14:45:10.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:45:20.826000+08:00","text":"報告委員，基本上我們針對主要零件這個部分，採購室有一個一到五類的分級標準，只要跟資安通訊有關的東西是絕對禁止的。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T14:45:21.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:45:41.475000+08:00","text":"但是在過去的幾年之間，我們可以看得到的是某一些重要的零件，比如發生在美國F-35戰機的這個事情，他們就爭論了很久，當初它主要是發動機上面的電磁鐵出現了那個礦，其他……","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:45:41.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:45:42.295000+08:00","text":"稀土嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:45:42.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:45:43.255000+08:00","text":"其實大家都知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T14:45:44.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:45:51.958000+08:00","text":"對，像這類的東西就必須要經過特別認證，這個也會由採購室依照它的分類標準查察。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:45:53.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:45:54.568000+08:00","text":"你要補充嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:45:54.568000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T14:45:55.568000+08:00","text":"來，採購室。","quality":0},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T14:45:54.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:45:56.249000+08:00","text":"委員好，我是國防採購室主任。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T14:45:56.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:46:08.074000+08:00","text":"向委員再報告，現在所有採購的軍品我們把它分五類，分五類也分級，包含禁原料、禁元件到禁廠牌。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T14:46:10.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:46:20.212000+08:00","text":"以剛剛講的無人機為例，無人機它是軍事用途，所以我們是禁到元件和廠牌都不行，這已經很明確了。好。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T14:46:20.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:46:38.243000+08:00","text":"因為國防產業發展條例那是之前訂的，但是我們在113年8月30日有訂了一個國軍採購禁用陸、港、澳產品認定及履約驗收作業指導，那裡面清楚地明定，把剛剛我講的那五類明定得非常清楚。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:46:38.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:46:39.543000+08:00","text":"好，我請經濟部再回來一下。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:46:40.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:47:01.034000+08:00","text":"你看，我之所以要把這個話講得很清楚的原因就在這個地方，經濟部說這個未來會變成亮點，好，你姑且說有一個2027的標準，但你旁邊這幾位國防部的官員，當然也是基於務實發展的考量，它必須要做分級等等的一些配套措施，所以我是強烈地建議政府在宣傳的時候不要胡說八道，因為顯然現實上有問題。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:47:01.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:47:17.345000+08:00","text":"我之所以一定要把這個問題提出來，其實理路是一致的，如果這樣子的安排或你們想要創造的亮點，與產業鏈的現實、現況產生嚴重扞格跟衝突，或者是你讓北京有介入的風險的時候，它其實立刻會造成整個產業鏈的打擊。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:47:17.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:47:25.631000+08:00","text":"我們現在要投入大筆的資源，花長期的計畫來做這件事情，如果在中間遇到這樣的狀況，這個風險政府是有責任要把它講清楚的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:47:26.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:47:47.857000+08:00","text":"今天因為只是詢答而已，我們話大概講到這裡，無人機零組件到底在使用上，如果以我們現在講的這一段的話，一些相關的資料跟客觀的標準我要請相關部會，經濟部也好，國防部也好，會後先提供，經濟部也要跟國防部好好瞭解一下，當初這個東西的來龍去脈是什麼，不要講得很大聲，實際上其實我這裡要開後門、那裡要開後門。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:47:47.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:47:51.938000+08:00","text":"而且我強調這個標準一定要客觀、要清楚的原因是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:47:51.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:03.624000+08:00","text":"如果到最後大家講這個東西講不下去，還是要和稀泥說我們交給主管機關認證，政府說我會來幫你認證，那我必須要講一句很不客氣的，難道不會變成有關係就沒關係嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:03.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:06.667000+08:00","text":"我跟你關係特別好的時候，認證剛好就對我很有利，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:06.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:19.357000+08:00","text":"它反而影響了整個產業發展的公信力，然後又造成是不是有綠友友等等的一些質疑或者是批評，這些都會對我們好好地發展無人機產業造成負面的影響，所以我們今天醜話一定要說在前頭。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:19.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:26.122000+08:00","text":"尤其是非紅供應鏈這一部分，如何避免受到長臂管轄或者是影響？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:26.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:29.444000+08:00","text":"你在這樣子的過程中，如何做一定的取捨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:29.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:32.747000+08:00","text":"標準怎麼樣透明而且客觀，可以接受大家的檢驗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:32.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:36.149000+08:00","text":"這三個大目標其實經濟部跟國防部今天會後要把它整理好，好不好？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:36.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:45.567000+08:00","text":"在法條審理之前，要跟大部分的委員、關心這件事的委員……今天很多委員也有關心這件事，你們要來做更詳細的溝通跟說明，可以嗎？可以。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:45.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:49.175000+08:00","text":"今天因為時間有限，我們講到這裡就好了。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:49.675000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:53.389286+08:00","text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員，謝謝機關首長。","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:53.689286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T14:48:57.403571+08:00","text":"王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T14:48:57.703571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T14:49:00.846429+08:00","text":"接下來請黃建賓委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1178,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（14時39分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部、國防部。"],["主席：請經濟部和國防部。"],["牛委員煦庭：兩位午安。賴清德總統7月9日出席臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟大會師活動時，宣示要將臺灣打造成亞洲無人機產業中心這樣的目標，透過整合產、官、學成立國家隊，又來了！讓臺灣在供應鏈上占有關鍵地位，經濟部與工研院會持續為臺灣的無人機產業推動包含非紅供應鏈還有資訊安全等等認證工作，這些工作總統特別強調非常重要，因為飛航控制、衛星導航等等都是很機敏的部分，所以一定要有非紅供應鏈的認證，政府也會協助相關的一些認證。現在要打造無人機國家隊，請問經濟部針對臺灣無人機產業在國際上整個的發展性，以及我們在供應鏈中的地位會遇到什麼樣的挑戰跟機會，有沒有完整的研究？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實我們現在的機會就是非紅，因為現在很多民主陣營國家，他們要的就是非紅的產品，所以臺灣必須要把握住這次的機會，在非紅供應鏈的產製上面，我們要讓臺灣的廠商能夠提升它非紅產品的能力。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，所以我認為經濟部的角色非常重要，我等一下再說為什麼特別重要。","我為什麼問你在產業鏈裡面的角色？因為一臺無人機，大家都說這是一個機器，但是大家也知道在這個全球化的時代，每一個產品其實背後是非常非常破碎的，無人機產業從晶片、PCB、馬達、磁鐵、感測器、影像模組、通訊模組、飛控韌體到雲端服務，它可能都從不同的廠商提供，你在做的也許是整合，對不對？"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是這麼多廠商，比如說單就經濟的料號來講，有好幾百個，對不對？一臺無人機有好幾百個料號，每一個背後可能又有好幾層供應商，這是現在供應鏈的狀況。我現在要問，次長剛剛直接講了嘛！說我們的機會就在於非紅供應鏈，那我就問一問定義，因為我覺得這件事情我們要講，要玩就玩真的，要講就講清楚。","台翔航太工業的總經理曾經投書，他說業者常常提的問題，就是現在無人機要發展的問題，像晶片設計在歐美，封測在中國大陸，它算不算非紅供應鏈？馬達是臺廠製造，但是它使用了中國大陸的原料，它算不算是非紅供應鏈？它的韌體開發用了國際的開源專案，但是維護者如果是陸籍的工程師，那它又算不算非紅供應鏈？他講的這些東西都是忠實反映實際上的業界現實，但是這個東西跟我們政府高調宣傳的非紅供應鏈，你剛剛講這是我們的亮點，它其實顯然出現了一些衝突，所以在這個場合，我們在進入實質條文審查等等過程之前，我覺得政府的態度要明確，既然要非紅，是不是要非紅到底？剛剛講的這些算不算牴觸了非紅供應鏈的觀點？請回答。"],["何次長晉滄：我跟委員報告，這個非紅產品的標準工程會已經有訂一套指引，我們的目標就是2027年開始，公務採購的無人機都要達到非紅的產品。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以剛剛他講的這三項其實都牴觸了，對不對？也就是到2027之後就不能再出現這樣的狀況。"],["何次長晉滄：對，我們就是要follow工程會的指引。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我之所以今天要國防部站在旁邊的原因就是這樣，就是曾經啊！我們在討論國防產業發展條例的時候，也出現過這樣子的辨證，對不對？當初在討論的時候，當初院版的國防產業發展條例第十九條就有所謂的例外條款，它是這樣說的，軍品研發、產製、維修之關鍵零組件及原料，不得來自大陸地區、香港、澳門或其居民、團體、法人、機構等等，但因特殊需要經主管機關同意者，不在此限，也就是有一個後門條款，有一個認定的條款。","這樣的條款，今天也不是我講這個事而已，當初在討論這個條款的時候，包含現在在網路上、新聞媒體上都赫赫有名的這兩位，之前是立法委員，一位是現在的劉世芳部長，當初他是立法委員，一位是我們國防外交的同僚王定宇委員，都針對這樣子的安排提出了強烈的質疑，因為你既然要貫徹非紅供應鏈，然後你今天又開後門，有一個所謂的例外條款，那不是很糟糕嗎？","王定宇委員甚至講啊！如果我們的武器到最後可以有例外條款，那這個武器萬一受到所謂的長臂管轄或者是受到所謂卡脖子的狀況的時候，我們的武器取得跟產製等等就會立刻陷入瓶頸。這個講法其實是有道理的，有道理的時候他當然挑戰這樣的一個說法，但是到了最後三讀的時候，這個所謂的後門條款跟霸王條款依然通過，國防部要不要講解一下為什麼？"],["何次長晉滄：我先跟委員報告一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：也可以，沒關係。"],["何次長晉滄：2027年之後就沒有所謂的後門條款或是您剛剛提到附帶什麼樣的條件，絕對完全要非紅產品的認定。"],["牛委員煦庭：國防部要補充一下嗎？"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：第一個，當然我們會follow經濟部還有工程會所訂出來的標準，至於我們的需求，我請戰規司司長做個說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，基本上我們針對主要零件這個部分，採購室有一個一到五類的分級標準，只要跟資安通訊有關的東西是絕對禁止的。但是在過去的幾年之間，我們可以看得到的是某一些重要的零件，比如發生在美國F-35戰機的這個事情，他們就爭論了很久，當初它主要是發動機上面的電磁鐵出現了那個礦，其他……"],["牛委員煦庭：稀土嘛！其實大家都知道。"],["黃司長文啓：對，像這類的東西就必須要經過特別認證，這個也會由採購室依照它的分類標準查察。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要補充嗎？來，採購室。"],["趙主任亞平：委員好，我是國防採購室主任。向委員再報告，現在所有採購的軍品我們把它分五類，分五類也分級，包含禁原料、禁元件到禁廠牌。以剛剛講的無人機為例，無人機它是軍事用途，所以我們是禁到元件和廠牌都不行，這已經很明確了。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["趙主任亞平：因為國防產業發展條例那是之前訂的，但是我們在113年8月30日有訂了一個國軍採購禁用陸、港、澳產品認定及履約驗收作業指導，那裡面清楚地明定，把剛剛我講的那五類明定得非常清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我請經濟部再回來一下。你看，我之所以要把這個話講得很清楚的原因就在這個地方，經濟部說這個未來會變成亮點，好，你姑且說有一個2027的標準，但你旁邊這幾位國防部的官員，當然也是基於務實發展的考量，它必須要做分級等等的一些配套措施，所以我是強烈地建議政府在宣傳的時候不要胡說八道，因為顯然現實上有問題。","我之所以一定要把這個問題提出來，其實理路是一致的，如果這樣子的安排或你們想要創造的亮點，與產業鏈的現實、現況產生嚴重扞格跟衝突，或者是你讓北京有介入的風險的時候，它其實立刻會造成整個產業鏈的打擊。我們現在要投入大筆的資源，花長期的計畫來做這件事情，如果在中間遇到這樣的狀況，這個風險政府是有責任要把它講清楚的。","今天因為只是詢答而已，我們話大概講到這裡，無人機零組件到底在使用上，如果以我們現在講的這一段的話，一些相關的資料跟客觀的標準我要請相關部會，經濟部也好，國防部也好，會後先提供，經濟部也要跟國防部好好瞭解一下，當初這個東西的來龍去脈是什麼，不要講得很大聲，實際上其實我這裡要開後門、那裡要開後門。","而且我強調這個標準一定要客觀、要清楚的原因是什麼？如果到最後大家講這個東西講不下去，還是要和稀泥說我們交給主管機關認證，政府說我會來幫你認證，那我必須要講一句很不客氣的，難道不會變成有關係就沒關係嗎？我跟你關係特別好的時候，認證剛好就對我很有利，對不對？它反而影響了整個產業發展的公信力，然後又造成是不是有綠友友等等的一些質疑或者是批評，這些都會對我們好好地發展無人機產業造成負面的影響，所以我們今天醜話一定要說在前頭。","尤其是非紅供應鏈這一部分，如何避免受到長臂管轄或者是影響？你在這樣子的過程中，如何做一定的取捨？標準怎麼樣透明而且客觀，可以接受大家的檢驗？這三個大目標其實經濟部跟國防部今天會後要把它整理好，好不好？在法條審理之前，要跟大部分的委員、關心這件事的委員……今天很多委員也有關心這件事，你們要來做更詳細的溝通跟說明，可以嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天因為時間有限，我們講到這裡就好了。謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員，謝謝機關首長。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","接下來請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}