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14:57:42","會議時間":"2026-07-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：\n一、\t行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n三、\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案。\n四、\t本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案」案。(僅詢答)(以上各案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":0.26721875,"end":1.95471875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":12.282218750000002,"end":13.800968750000003,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":14.374718750000003,"end":15.302843750000001,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":18.22221875,"end":18.82971875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":19.656593750000003,"end":20.820968750000002,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":21.90096875,"end":39.23159375,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":39.56909375,"end":57.50721875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":57.70971875,"end":59.835968750000006,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":60.13971875,"end":62.164718750000006,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":62.687843750000006,"end":63.17721875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":64.29096875,"end":66.70409375,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":67.15971875000001,"end":87.12284375,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":87.39284375000001,"end":91.61159375000001,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":92.20221875,"end":96.67409375000001,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":97.23096875,"end":103.52534375,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":103.69409375000001,"end":121.49721875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":121.75034375000001,"end":134.35596875000002,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":134.82846875,"end":135.08159375,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":135.55409375000002,"end":135.99284375000002,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":136.48221875000002,"end":136.85346875000002,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":138.05159375,"end":146.15159375000002,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":146.43846875,"end":151.02846875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":151.34909375,"end":151.80471875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":152.49659375000002,"end":153.22221875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":153.39096875,"end":155.31471875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":155.85471875000002,"end":171.64971875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":171.93659375000001,"end":176.03721875000002,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":176.03721875000002,"end":185.58846875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":186.43221875,"end":201.97409375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":201.97409375,"end":202.59846875000002,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":203.18909375,"end":203.20596875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員建賓","start":203.20596875,"end":204.99471875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃司長文啓","start":204.35346875000002,"end":204.52221875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃司長文啓","start":206.05784375000002,"end":206.47971875000002,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃司長文啓","start":206.78346875000003,"end":208.55534375000002,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃司長文啓","start":208.94346875000002,"end":223.42221875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃司長文啓","start":223.47284375,"end":226.12221875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃司長文啓","start":226.62846875000002,"end":228.68721875000003,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃司長文啓","start":229.29471875000002,"end":233.96909375,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃司長文啓","start":234.23909375000002,"end":234.86346875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃司長文啓","start":235.31909375,"end":241.4109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謝謝主席 我們有請國防部我們請國防部委員好副中長好"},{"start":22.541,"end":30.79,"text":"這個我們行政院所提這次這個國防自主無人載具採購特別條例的草案規劃是從2026年8月到2031年12月逐年籌編上線新台幣2100億元是採購這個濱海兼徵型的無人機"},{"start":39.679,"end":62.771,"text":"兵海攻擊型的無人機以及小型自殺無人艇那這個目的是在於強化不對稱戰力還有我們國防自主與防衛韌性那本席先把立場講清楚面對區域的安全情勢增高那現在戰爭的形態快速改變無人載具當然是我們國軍不對稱戰力的重要的一環那"},{"start":65.252,"end":91.322,"text":"國軍該補的戰力本席支持那該加速的建軍本席也支持那但是呢但是支持國防也不代表說我們立法院要交出我們的監督權那支持國軍也不代表行政部門可以拿情勢急迫這四個字就要求用2100億元買一張沒有細項沒有里程碑也沒有退場機制的空白支票我想今天本席為什麼要問"},{"start":92.442,"end":120.849,"text":"我們今天要問的不是要不要國防但是這筆錢我們該怎麼花何時能夠形成戰力那時程如何來規劃那為什麼本席會這樣子問就是因為我們過去國軍在反無人機系統的採購上已經出現非常非常清楚的這個警訊那我們陸軍曾經以新台幣約大概9.8億去採購26套固定式或陣地式無人機反制系統那原本要部署在這個外海外島跟這個重要的據點"},{"start":121.889,"end":135.807,"text":"那結果驗收跟復驗卻都不能夠達到這個6公里增貨4公里外成功干擾的性能要求甚至傳出這個商用無人機穿越防線那副市長這個"},{"start":138.403,"end":154.788,"text":"這個不是小瑕疵 這個是第一線防空防衛可能開天窗的問題那我想這也不是文書作為延擋那是花了人民的納稅錢卻沒有形成急佔點問題所以我想要請副總長直接來回答說"},{"start":155.928,"end":184.687,"text":"面對先前固定是無人機反制系統的驗收沒有過的教訓這一次的特別條例有沒有把性能測試分階段驗收還有實戰情境的測評以及履約管理還有違約處理跟重新招標的機制寫清楚有沒有是 鮑委員這一次的這個特別條例是主要是根據我們國防部的作戰需求而來作戰需求裡頭就已經考慮到相關的事項"},{"start":186.769,"end":203.65,"text":"絕對不是一張空白支票因為通過特別條例之後我們要依據特別條例編列特別預算特別預算要送到大院來審查所以說絕對不是項目內容都不清楚的一張空白支票不是剛才提到這五箱油有寫在這裡面嗎 這五箱油嗎"},{"start":207.088,"end":228.521,"text":"這個部分跟委員說明一下就是我們針對這五行無人機的這個部分在去年九月份跟十月份分別遭對外遭做了兩次遭傷說明然後也跟國內的業界做過很充分的研討那針對委員講的這個部分我們部裡面部長在召集"},{"start":229.381,"end":253.12,"text":"相關的研討會的時候市長也做了非常清楚的律定那所以包含我們履約的時候必須要規範哪些項目測評的標準是什麼然後未來必須達到的需求是什麼使用什麼樣的零件這些都跟包含工研院在內的有關單位做過非常綿密的研討市長 副市長 其實本期節目我們不希望看到那種先編預算的後補規格"},{"start":256.323,"end":268.068,"text":"然後驗收不過最後才又是什麼依法處理我們不要再看到這種東西了因為其實我想這個都是人民的納粹錢我相信早上一整個早上很多人都提到這件事情那"},{"start":269.158,"end":286.235,"text":"好 那接下來我想時間也有一些我就繼續再問接下來就是說那我還要再請教部裡面就是說我們特別預算不能變成長期維運的後門像無人載具不是買了它就結束了因為後續要包括什麼 還有電池 彈藥 籌載 通訊軟體的更新 維修的保養"},{"start":291.36,"end":308.005,"text":"還有庫存輪替操作訓練跟消耗補充等等長期的成本所以這邊請副總統來說明說這2100億提出的2100億裡面哪一些是一次性戰力的建置哪些是維保哪些是訓練軟體更新消耗補充"},{"start":310.126,"end":327.247,"text":"那如果說那第三年以後還要依消耗的狀況繼續來採購這些是不是會回歸到年度預算接受常態的審查還是說今天用特別預算開了這個門明天就把常態違運的這些費用通通都塞到特別預算裡面去"},{"start":328.863,"end":356.117,"text":"幫委員這個跟委員簡要說明一下就是我們這一次的這三行的無人載具的部分主要是採購我們三倍急需的數量那至於後續的訊號然後後勤為保的需求庫儲的整建跟其他相關的項目是以公務預算的方式來執行那有一部分事實上已經在去年通過的國土安全任性預算裡面已經開始做了處理了"},{"start":358.08,"end":382.876,"text":"現在市長說明了市長其實本席會要求就是說這些費用你要把它都列清楚不要發生就是到時候我們的費用一直在膨脹因為整個預算的最大問題還是在養護上面好那接下來我想要再請教就是說因為我早上也有聽到其他委員提到就是因為現在科技進步得太快技術變得太快那我們有沒有去考慮到會不會未來買到過時的這些裝備"},{"start":387.058,"end":409.566,"text":"國人載具的技術演變得極快從籌載、抗干擾到通訊、鏈路、AI辨識到軟體定義、作戰這些可能都在數年內發生重大的變化我想要再請教國防部本案是不是有做滾動式的調整、分批驗證、停損機制還有替代的採購機制以及定期向立法院報告的義務"},{"start":410.706,"end":422.539,"text":"那如果說未來我們採購期間技術已經落後了那國防部有沒有權力要求停止改規格或換平台那如果廠商交付的系統跟戰場有需求有脫節的話那誰要來負責停損"},{"start":425.626,"end":449.177,"text":"幫委員這個部分先從後面這一段講這個部分是我們在訂約的時候會把它放在裡面當成一個要求的條款就是因為我們無人機的主要的組成包含飛控導航通訊的這些部分它主要都是晶片跟模組更換那所以在必要做模組更換的時候我們會要求廠商來進行模組更換來跟上迭代的速度"},{"start":449.577,"end":468.194,"text":"那另外的部分就是針對軟體的部分也納到我們的履約規定裡面就是廠商必須要有能力去幫我們後面做軟體更新讓它不會落後那它才符合我們的這個要求那這個當然是我們後續獲得預算之後進入預約程序的時候會把它納到我們的那個條約裡面"},{"start":469.709,"end":486.69,"text":"謝謝市長的說明市長這是副總統和市長本席再次強調說我想國防建設是不能拖那無人載具的能力也確實要補但是因為它越是重大越是急迫越是龐大的國防預算我們就越不能用模糊授權的方式來通過那國防預算要快"},{"start":487.15,"end":506.958,"text":"也要準要有效率要更可以來監督要支持國軍也要防止人民的納稅錢變成驗收失敗的代價因此這邊本席要具體的要求就是國防部還有相關部會在委員會審查前要提出幾項資料第一個就是反無人機的這個系統驗收檢討報告"},{"start":508.078,"end":512.181,"text":"那第二個就是一次性採購跟長期違運經費評估統計資料我想這兩個資料先具備好我們再來繼續來討論那以上謝謝市長謝謝副總長謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:49:09.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:49:10.677000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們有請國防部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T14:49:11.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:49:12.158000+08:00","text":"請國防部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T14:49:15.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:49:15.560000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:49:16.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:49:17.501000+08:00","text":"副總長好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:49:19.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:49:45.784000+08:00","text":"行政院這一次所提的國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案，規劃是從2026年8月到2031年12月，逐年籌編上限新臺幣2,100億元，採購濱海監偵型無人機、濱海攻擊型無人機以及小型自殺無人艇，目的是在於強化不對稱戰力還有國防自主與防衛韌性。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:49:46.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:50:26.661000+08:00","text":"本席先把立場講清楚，面對區域的安全情勢升高，現在戰爭的型態快速改變，無人載具當然是我們國軍不對稱戰力重要的一環，國軍該補的戰力本席支持，該加速的建軍本席也支持，但是支持國防不代表我們立法院要交出監督權，支持國軍也不代表行政部門可以拿「情勢急迫」這4個字，就要求用2,100億元買一張沒有細項、沒有里程碑也沒有退場機制的空白支票。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:50:27.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:50:33.363000+08:00","text":"我們今天要問的不是要不要國防，而是這筆錢該怎麼花？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:50:34.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:50:35.924000+08:00","text":"何時能夠形成戰力？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:50:36.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:50:38.124000+08:00","text":"時程如何規劃？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:50:38.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:50:39.524000+08:00","text":"為什麼本席會這樣子問？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:50:39.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:51:11.124000+08:00","text":"就是因為過去國軍在反無人機系統的採購上已經出現非常非常清楚的警訊，陸軍曾經以新臺幣約9.8億去採購26套固定式或陣地式無人機反制系統，原本要部署在外島跟重要的據點，結果驗收跟複驗卻都不能夠達到6公里偵獲、4公里外成功干擾的性能要求，甚至傳出商用無人機穿越防線。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:51:12.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:51:20.344000+08:00","text":"副總長，這個不是小瑕疵，這個是第一線防空防衛可能開天窗的問題喔！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:51:20.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:51:25.746000+08:00","text":"我想這也不是文書作業延宕，這是花了人民的納稅錢卻沒有形成即戰力的問題。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:51:25.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:51:52.281000+08:00","text":"所以我請副總長直接來回答，面對先前固定式無人機反制系統驗收沒有過的教訓，這一次的特別條例有沒有把性能測試、分階段驗收、實戰情境的測評、履約管理、違約處理及重新招標的機制寫清楚？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:51:52.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:51:52.881000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T14:51:53.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:52:05.111000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這一次的特別條例主要是根據我們國防部的作戰需求而來，作戰需求裡頭就已經考慮到相關的事項，絕對不是一張空白支票。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T14:52:05.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:52:17.726000+08:00","text":"因為通過特別條例之後，我們要依據特別條例編列特別預算，特別預算仍然要送到大院來審查，所以說絕對不是項目、內容都不清楚的一張空白支票。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:52:18.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:52:20.389000+08:00","text":"所以副總長，本席剛才提到的這五項有寫在這裡面嗎？","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:52:20.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:52:20.650000+08:00","text":"這五項有嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T14:52:24.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:52:40.658000+08:00","text":"這個部分跟委員說明一下，我們針對這五型無人機的部分，在去年9月份跟11月份，分別對外做了兩次招商說明，然後也跟國內的業界做過很充分的研討。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T14:52:41.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:53:07.719000+08:00","text":"針對委員講的這個部分，我們部長在召集相關研討會的時候，事實上也做了非常清楚的律定，所以包含我們履約的時候必須要規範哪些項目、測評的標準是什麼、未來必須達到的需求是什麼、使用什麼樣的零件，這些都跟包含工研院在內的有關單位做過非常綿密的研討。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:53:07.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:53:24.107000+08:00","text":"司長、副總長，其實本席這樣問，就是我們不希望又看到那種先編預算再後補規格，然後驗收不過，最後才又是什麼依法處理，我們不要再看到這種東西，因為這個都是人民的納稅錢，我相信一整個早上很多人都提到這件事情。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:53:26.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:53:30.042000+08:00","text":"好，我想時間有限，我就繼續再問。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:53:30.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:53:42.314000+08:00","text":"接下來我還要再請教部裡面，我們特別預算不能變成長期維運的後門，無人載具不是買了它就結束了，因為後續還有包括什麼？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:53:42.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:53:53.422000+08:00","text":"還有電池、彈藥、酬載、通訊、軟體的更新、維修的保養，還有庫存、輪替、操作訓練跟消耗補充等等長期的成本。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:53:54.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:54:01.924000+08:00","text":"所以這邊請副總長來說明，提出的2,100億裡面，哪一些是一次性戰力的建置？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:54:02.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:54:03.285000+08:00","text":"哪些是維保？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:54:03.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:54:04.985000+08:00","text":"哪些是訓練、軟體更新、消耗補充？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:54:07.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:54:17.058000+08:00","text":"如果說第三年以後還要依消耗的狀況繼續採購，這些是不是會回歸年度預算，接受常態的審查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:54:17.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:54:24.227000+08:00","text":"還是說今天用特別預算開了這個門，明天就把常態維運的這些費用統統都塞到特別預算裡面去？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T14:54:26.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:54:53.097000+08:00","text":"這個跟委員簡要說明一下，我們這一次這三型無人載具的部分，主要是採購戰備急需的數量，至於後續的訊號、後勤維保的需求、庫儲的整建跟其他相關的項目，是以公務預算的方式執行，有一部分事實上已經在去年通過的國土安全韌性預算裡面開始處理了。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:54:55.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:54:55.640000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝司長的說明。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:54:56.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:55:07.968000+08:00","text":"司長，本席會要求這些費用，你都要把它列清楚，不要發生到時候費用一直在膨脹，因為整個預算最大的問題還是在養護上面。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:55:08.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:55:19.876000+08:00","text":"接下來我想要再請教，因為我早上也有聽其他委員提到，現在科技進步得太快，技術變得太快，那我們有沒有去考慮到未來會不會買到過時的裝備？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:55:24.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:55:35.282000+08:00","text":"因為無人載具的技術演變得極快，從酬載、抗干擾、通訊鏈路、AI辨識到軟體定義作戰，這些可能都在數年內發生重大的變化。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:55:35.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:55:46.566000+08:00","text":"我想要再請教國防部，本案是不是有做滾動式的調整、分批驗證、停損機制還有替代的採購機制，以及有定期向立法院報告的義務？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:55:47.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:55:55.595000+08:00","text":"如果說未來我們採購期間技術已經落後了，國防部有沒有權力要求停止、改規格或換平臺？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:55:56.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:55:59.539000+08:00","text":"如果廠商交付的系統跟戰場的需求脫節的話，誰要來負責停損？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T14:56:02.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:56:26.157000+08:00","text":"報告委員，先從後面這一段講，這個部分我們在訂約的時候，會把它放在裡面當成一個要求的條款，因為無人機主要的組成包含飛控、導航、通訊這些部分，它主要都是晶片跟模組更換，所以在做必要的模組更換的時候，我們會要求廠商進行模組更換，跟上迭代的速度。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T14:56:26.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:56:39.249000+08:00","text":"另外就是針對軟體的部分，也納到我們的履約規定裡面，廠商必須要有能力去幫我們後面做軟體更新，讓它不會落後，這樣才符合我們的要求。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T14:56:39.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:56:45.174000+08:00","text":"這個當然是我們後續獲得預算之後，進入議約程序的時候，會把它納到我們的條約裡面。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:56:46.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:56:47.110000+08:00","text":"謝謝司長的說明。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:56:48.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:57:02.849000+08:00","text":"副總長跟司長，本席再次強調，我想國防建設不能拖，無人載具的能力也確實要補，但是它越是重大、越是急迫、越是龐大的國防預算，我們就越不能用模糊授權的方式通過。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:57:03.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:57:26.659000+08:00","text":"國防預算要快也要準，要有效率，更可以監督，要支持國軍也要防止人民的納稅錢變成驗收失敗的代價，因此本席具體地要求，國防部還有相關部會在委員會審查以前要提出幾項資料，第一個就是反無人機系統驗收檢討報告，第二個就是一次性採購跟長期維運經費的評估統計資料。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:57:26.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:57:28.480000+08:00","text":"我想這兩個資料先具備好，我們再來繼續討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-16T14:57:28.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T14:57:29.161000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝司長，謝謝副總長，謝謝主席。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T14:57:29.661000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T14:57:30.803857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T14:57:31.103857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T14:57:34.818143+08:00","text":"謝謝黃建賓委員，謝謝機關首長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T14:57:35.118143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T14:57:38.832429+08:00","text":"林思銘、林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T14:57:39.132429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T14:57:42.275286+08:00","text":"接下來請李坤城委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1216,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（14時49分）謝謝主席，我們有請國防部。"],["主席：請國防部。"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：副總長好。行政院這一次所提的國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案，規劃是從2026年8月到2031年12月，逐年籌編上限新臺幣2,100億元，採購濱海監偵型無人機、濱海攻擊型無人機以及小型自殺無人艇，目的是在於強化不對稱戰力還有國防自主與防衛韌性。","本席先把立場講清楚，面對區域的安全情勢升高，現在戰爭的型態快速改變，無人載具當然是我們國軍不對稱戰力重要的一環，國軍該補的戰力本席支持，該加速的建軍本席也支持，但是支持國防不代表我們立法院要交出監督權，支持國軍也不代表行政部門可以拿「情勢急迫」這4個字，就要求用2,100億元買一張沒有細項、沒有里程碑也沒有退場機制的空白支票。","我們今天要問的不是要不要國防，而是這筆錢該怎麼花？何時能夠形成戰力？時程如何規劃？為什麼本席會這樣子問？就是因為過去國軍在反無人機系統的採購上已經出現非常非常清楚的警訊，陸軍曾經以新臺幣約9.8億去採購26套固定式或陣地式無人機反制系統，原本要部署在外島跟重要的據點，結果驗收跟複驗卻都不能夠達到6公里偵獲、4公里外成功干擾的性能要求，甚至傳出商用無人機穿越防線。","副總長，這個不是小瑕疵，這個是第一線防空防衛可能開天窗的問題喔！我想這也不是文書作業延宕，這是花了人民的納稅錢卻沒有形成即戰力的問題。所以我請副總長直接來回答，面對先前固定式無人機反制系統驗收沒有過的教訓，這一次的特別條例有沒有把性能測試、分階段驗收、實戰情境的測評、履約管理、違約處理及重新招標的機制寫清楚？有沒有？"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：報告委員，這一次的特別條例主要是根據我們國防部的作戰需求而來，作戰需求裡頭就已經考慮到相關的事項，絕對不是一張空白支票。因為通過特別條例之後，我們要依據特別條例編列特別預算，特別預算仍然要送到大院來審查，所以說絕對不是項目、內容都不清楚的一張空白支票。"],["黃委員建賓：所以副總長，本席剛才提到的這五項有寫在這裡面嗎？這五項有嗎？"],["黃司長文啓：這個部分跟委員說明一下，我們針對這五型無人機的部分，在去年9月份跟11月份，分別對外做了兩次招商說明，然後也跟國內的業界做過很充分的研討。","針對委員講的這個部分，我們部長在召集相關研討會的時候，事實上也做了非常清楚的律定，所以包含我們履約的時候必須要規範哪些項目、測評的標準是什麼、未來必須達到的需求是什麼、使用什麼樣的零件，這些都跟包含工研院在內的有關單位做過非常綿密的研討。"],["黃委員建賓：司長、副總長，其實本席這樣問，就是我們不希望又看到那種先編預算再後補規格，然後驗收不過，最後才又是什麼依法處理，我們不要再看到這種東西，因為這個都是人民的納稅錢，我相信一整個早上很多人都提到這件事情。","好，我想時間有限，我就繼續再問。接下來我還要再請教部裡面，我們特別預算不能變成長期維運的後門，無人載具不是買了它就結束了，因為後續還有包括什麼？還有電池、彈藥、酬載、通訊、軟體的更新、維修的保養，還有庫存、輪替、操作訓練跟消耗補充等等長期的成本。所以這邊請副總長來說明，提出的2,100億裡面，哪一些是一次性戰力的建置？哪些是維保？哪些是訓練、軟體更新、消耗補充？如果說第三年以後還要依消耗的狀況繼續採購，這些是不是會回歸年度預算，接受常態的審查？還是說今天用特別預算開了這個門，明天就把常態維運的這些費用統統都塞到特別預算裡面去？"],["黃司長文啓：這個跟委員簡要說明一下，我們這一次這三型無人載具的部分，主要是採購戰備急需的數量，至於後續的訊號、後勤維保的需求、庫儲的整建跟其他相關的項目，是以公務預算的方式執行，有一部分事實上已經在去年通過的國土安全韌性預算裡面開始處理了。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝司長的說明。司長，本席會要求這些費用，你都要把它列清楚，不要發生到時候費用一直在膨脹，因為整個預算最大的問題還是在養護上面。","接下來我想要再請教，因為我早上也有聽其他委員提到，現在科技進步得太快，技術變得太快，那我們有沒有去考慮到未來會不會買到過時的裝備？因為無人載具的技術演變得極快，從酬載、抗干擾、通訊鏈路、AI辨識到軟體定義作戰，這些可能都在數年內發生重大的變化。我想要再請教國防部，本案是不是有做滾動式的調整、分批驗證、停損機制還有替代的採購機制，以及有定期向立法院報告的義務？如果說未來我們採購期間技術已經落後了，國防部有沒有權力要求停止、改規格或換平臺？如果廠商交付的系統跟戰場的需求脫節的話，誰要來負責停損？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，先從後面這一段講，這個部分我們在訂約的時候，會把它放在裡面當成一個要求的條款，因為無人機主要的組成包含飛控、導航、通訊這些部分，它主要都是晶片跟模組更換，所以在做必要的模組更換的時候，我們會要求廠商進行模組更換，跟上迭代的速度。另外就是針對軟體的部分，也納到我們的履約規定裡面，廠商必須要有能力去幫我們後面做軟體更新，讓它不會落後，這樣才符合我們的要求。這個當然是我們後續獲得預算之後，進入議約程序的時候，會把它納到我們的條約裡面。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝司長的說明。副總長跟司長，本席再次強調，我想國防建設不能拖，無人載具的能力也確實要補，但是它越是重大、越是急迫、越是龐大的國防預算，我們就越不能用模糊授權的方式通過。國防預算要快也要準，要有效率，更可以監督，要支持國軍也要防止人民的納稅錢變成驗收失敗的代價，因此本席具體地要求，國防部還有相關部會在委員會審查以前要提出幾項資料，第一個就是反無人機系統驗收檢討報告，第二個就是一次性採購跟長期維運經費的評估統計資料。我想這兩個資料先具備好，我們再來繼續討論。以上，謝謝司長，謝謝副總長，謝謝主席。"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員，謝謝機關首長。","林思銘、林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","接下來請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}