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市長這一檔的2400億的這個部分它是一般公務預算那在這個一般公務預算裡面它有提到的一些跟產業振興的概念的部分那跟我們的無人載具的"},{"start":37.438,"end":50.163,"text":"之前有一個產業振興相關的條款我看你們今天的書面報告組織總署也好經濟部的書面報告也好都有提到一個442億元的這個相關的無人載具投從計畫這個預計是114到119年來去投入442億元來給無人載具提供發展這2400億跟這個我們現有的442億的無人載具的這個產業發展計畫還有沒有雷同之處"},{"start":67.364,"end":89.197,"text":"裡面有一部分是會用在這個產業輔導的部分我想是雷同的啦也就是說我們現在已經有統籌型計畫已經在對產業已經在做輔導了而且裡面所提到所設計的這相關的獎勵啦或是租稅抵減投資的部分其實我們在產創條例裡面本來廠商現在就可以來"},{"start":90.397,"end":113.591,"text":"來應用這方面的這些相關的優惠所以在一檔所設計出來的這些條文裡面其實說真的現在不管是我們投手銀計畫還是現有的法規其實廠商都可以來依循這些政府所提供的這相關的這個輔導資源可以來使用好你剛剛提到的包含租稅還有一些財政上面的輔助等等的"},{"start":114.332,"end":125.968,"text":"那這個442億元已經有可能有重複的地方那有沒有不僅是重複會不會有抵觸的地方啊就是說已經這邊也有規定那你再另行規定的話那以哪一個為主"},{"start":127.113,"end":146.182,"text":"當然就是早上也有委員提到說會不會抵觸這個憲法就是說立法院應該只能審行政院提出來的預算那這次這個在院長的版本裡面有提到就是說他要這個編列預算這個是違憲的"},{"start":149.904,"end":167.661,"text":"我先不講到違憲我們先講到說假設已經有了無人載具產業發展計畫裡面的條目跟他們提出來的計畫2400億的計畫裡面有互相重疊那一個比較多那一個比較少或者是相反一個比較少一個比較多的這個狀況之下是以哪一個為主啊"},{"start":169.568,"end":194.704,"text":"對 當然我們現在為了要趕快輔導產業的話我們當然就是以這個目前統籌金計畫的這個推動為主那如果在野黨他提出2400億的話那是不是最好的方式如果他們真的想要對無人載具來提高他的這個投資提高我們的量能還有我們的產線那未來說民轉軍的時候在遇到國家緊急狀態的時候能夠擴增擴建的話"},{"start":196.425,"end":216.581,"text":"那是不是增加無人載具投資計畫的追加預算是不是也有幫助其實在野黨他們是用這個公務預算的方式來編列啦那公務預算其實會有幾個效果第一個可能預算編列的時候會有排擠的效果那第二個也有可能預算會被刪減的問題"},{"start":217.822,"end":221.984,"text":"那第三個就是預算可能也有可能會被這個審查時程延宕的這個問題所以如果說國安部現在提出了這個特別預算的這個編列的話能夠讓廠商可以"},{"start":234.071,"end":249.844,"text":"看得到未來有一個很穩定的預算的一個編列而且他們也願意來投資或是說在研發者的工作上面能夠多做一些這方面的一個努力的話其實他們也比較願意做這方面的資本的一個投入"},{"start":257.811,"end":275.207,"text":"所以我想國安部的這樣的一個增加採購的能量的話我想對國內的無人機業者來講他們也比較能夠吃下一個定心丸他願意來投入這樣的一個長期研發的工作"},{"start":277.711,"end":304.728,"text":"那次長接下來我想要請教一下包含這個經濟部那還有我們的中科院的院長也可以那是不是要一起一併來我們就針對這個他們提到本土化的部分那本土化我們就進入更細節就是剛才提到的不管是我們的晶片也好還是說我們的一些主要的關鍵部產"},{"start":306.448,"end":312.121,"text":"我們現在本土化有辦法達到在野黨他們要求的這樣子的比例嗎"},{"start":315.08,"end":343.007,"text":"我中科院副院長跟委員報告就是我們有很多一些包含了關鍵零組件的本土化我們也希望能夠配合經濟部的統籌型企劃然後我們有一個多元運用方案也希望在那個裡面來去提升我們國內的技術水準對那現在這一檔的提出來的版本裡面他有提出要在多少的百分比甚至說本土的這個關鍵部材或者是本土的零件比例要到幾%80%嘛所以最高是有他們的條例裡面"},{"start":345.383,"end":366.883,"text":"對 四年後要達到80%好 四年後要達到80%那現在有辦法完成這樣子的任務嗎其實我跟委員報告其實現在的話我們的統計就是一些小型無人機的話大概已經有70%可以達到國產化然後中型的話大概有六成可以達到我的意思是國產化所以這一檔提出來的這個目的是達到80%的話"},{"start":368.484,"end":395.495,"text":"那我擔心說在我們時間上面來不來得及我怕說時間上面如果來不及的話那等於是再把我們的產量等於是無法用其他國家我們是去中化嘛但是其他有盟的國家跟我們友善的國家跟我們互補的國家等於是我們沒有辦法進這些專用的關鍵部材零組件來去完成我們無人機發展的這個目標那這樣怎麼辦是 所以我們也是比較擔心因為無人機的迭代的速度非常快啦"},{"start":396.135,"end":402.157,"text":"所以有一些零組件的部分有可能會產生就是說目前我們國內的話還是需要向國外來採購這個部分所以如果再去訂這個所謂國產化的這個比例的話就怕委員剛剛提到的這個問題我們會擔心他會有這樣的一個問題"},{"start":416.82,"end":440.425,"text":"好那接下來我們請國防部這個次長或者是副總長執行官也可以一起好簡單好想請教一下我們剛才有聽到應該也不是我們仔細看一下這一檔的一些提案裡面有說分三地做生產的這個基地你們對這一個的看法跟意見如何"},{"start":441.804,"end":456.35,"text":"包委員這個有關於在野黨在他的條例裡頭所規定的這個地點我相信這個我們台灣各地都有相當多的廠商那我們的國防部門的條例分散"},{"start":458.051,"end":478.241,"text":"對重要的是要滿足最快的速度滿足我們的作戰需求所以說實際上我們是只要能夠符合我們作戰需求的我們都會去加以這個採購納入我們的作戰序列那至於要由哪些地方強制分配到怎麼樣分配實際上就會造成我們在採購還有這個產業上發展上的這個"},{"start":482.103,"end":495.055,"text":"失去了彈性反而不利於我們在這個國防快速建立的目標好那最後一個問題我想請教就是說可是在分散生產這方面有它的道理在嗎"},{"start":496.7,"end":513.509,"text":"當然就任性來說的確如果我們的這個能夠分散能夠這個將這個利益這個國防產業的這個效益擴大到最大是有它的好處但是我們要強調必須先滿足我們的作戰需求"},{"start":514.389,"end":543.136,"text":"那因為這個要權衡一下這個我對這一點是有既有疑慮但是一方面又覺得說它分散的它能夠增強我們的韌性這件事情也是要納入考量所以這個部分可能要先做研究就是說如果我們的目標是追求韌性就是當一滴的生產被斷斷鏈了那接下來至少有其他地方可以作為備位的這個提供者那在暫時的時候這個又特別重要"},{"start":544.036,"end":561.778,"text":"可是在平時的話我們是要快速獲得這些能力快速獲得這些裝備所以理論上是要誰能夠生產我們就要做他的採購不管是在哪一區域所以平時跟暫時之間它是有不同的需求"},{"start":562.759,"end":575.288,"text":"但是我們現在又追求韌性所以我認為我們這部分可能跟在野黨要溝通一下說到底是怎麼樣權衡那特別是現在在陳平時期的話那我們是不是先不要"},{"start":576.704,"end":604.033,"text":"要這麼強硬的說要分這麼多地還是說他真的還是有他的必要性這個部分我覺得要溝通因為是有他的道理在剛才你有講有他的道理在但是也有他的缺陷在所以這個部分我們瞭解一下到底盤整一下到底夠不夠如果不夠的話就要跟在野黨來跟他們來去說服說因為現在的狀況陳平時期是真的不夠我們可以理解他們要在三個不同地區生產的這一個看法"},{"start":604.713,"end":610.512,"text":"可是如果在陳平時期這樣的做法似乎不是最好的做法那這個部分就要來溝通一下好不好是 好 謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:08:19.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:08:20.052000+08:00","text":"我們請經濟部次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T15:08:20.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:08:20.052000+08:00","text":"請經濟部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:08:38.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:08:38.869000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:08:39.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:08:39.950000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:08:42.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:08:51.276000+08:00","text":"次長，在野黨的2,400億這個部分是一般公務預算嘛，在一般公務預算裡面，它有提到一些產業振興的概念。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:08:53.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:09:08.163000+08:00","text":"我們的無人載具之前有一個產業振興相關的條款，我看你們今天的書面報告，主計總處也好，經濟部的書面報告也好，都有提到一個442億元的無人載具統籌計畫，預計是114到119年，投入442億元給無人載具提供發展，這2,400億跟現有的442億無人載具產業發展計畫有沒有雷同之處？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:09:25.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:09:31.568000+08:00","text":"裡面有一部分會用在產業輔導，我想是雷同的啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:09:31.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:10:05.787000+08:00","text":"也就是說我們現在已經有統籌型計畫在對產業輔導了，而且裡面所提到、所設計的相關獎勵或是租稅抵減、投資，其實在產創條例裡面，本來廠商現在就可以應用這方面的相關優惠，所以在野黨設計出的這些條文，其實說真的，現在不管是我們統籌型計畫還是現有的法規，廠商都可以依循，可以使用政府所提供的相關輔導資源。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:10:07.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:10:19.942000+08:00","text":"好，你剛剛提到包含租稅還有一些財政上面的輔助等等，這個442億元可能有重複的地方，不僅僅是重複，會不會有牴觸的地方？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:10:20.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:10:23.948000+08:00","text":"這邊已經有規定，你再另行規定的話，以哪一個為主？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:10:25.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:10:29.995000+08:00","text":"早上也有委員提到會不會牴觸憲法？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:10:31.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:10:44.162000+08:00","text":"因為立法院應該只能審行政院提出來的預算，這一次在野黨的版本裡面有提到它要編列預算，這個是違憲的。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:10:47.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:11:05.461000+08:00","text":"不是，我先不講它違憲，我們先講假設已經有了無人載具產業發展統籌計畫，裡面的條目跟他們提出來的2,400億的計畫互相重疊，一個比較多一個比較少，或者是相反，一個比較少一個比較多的狀況之下，是以哪一個為主？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:11:07.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:11:15.333000+08:00","text":"當然我們現在為了要趕快輔導產業的話，目前是以統籌型計畫的推動為主。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:11:15.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:11:19.416000+08:00","text":"如果在野黨提出2,400億的話，那是不是最好的方式？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:11:20.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:11:39.289000+08:00","text":"如果他們真的想要對無人載具提高投資，提高我們的量能還有產線，未來做民轉軍的時候，在遇到國家緊急狀態的時候能夠擴增、擴建的話，無人載具統籌計畫的追加預算是不是也有幫助？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:11:41.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:11:58.203000+08:00","text":"在野黨是用公務預算的方式編列，公務預算其實會有幾個效果：第一個，可能預算編列的時候會有排擠的效果；第二個，也有可能有預算會被刪減的問題；第三個，預算也有可能有被審查時程延宕的問題。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:11:58.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:12:27.824000+08:00","text":"所以如果國防部現在提出了這個特別預算的編列，讓廠商可以看得到未來有一個很穩定的預算編列，而且他們也願意來投資，或是說在研發者的工作上面能夠多做一些努力的話，其實他們也比較願意做這方面的資本投入。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:12:35.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:12:53.187000+08:00","text":"我想國防部增加採購的能量，對國內的無人機業者來講，他們也比較能夠吃下一個定心丸，願意來投入長期研發的工作。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:12:56.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:13:30.121000+08:00","text":"接下來我想要請教一下，包含經濟部還有中科院的院長也可以一併來，我們就針對他們提到本土化的部分進入更細節，就是剛才提到的，不管是晶片也好，還是一些主要的關鍵部材，我們現在本土化有辦法達到在野黨要求的比例嗎？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"程副院長一誠","start":"2026-07-16T15:13:33.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:13:34.280000+08:00","text":"我是中科院副院長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"程副院長一誠","start":"2026-07-16T15:13:34.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:13:47.023000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，包含關鍵零組件的本土化，我們也希望能夠配合經濟部的統籌型計畫，然後我們有一個多元運用方案，也希望在那裡面提升國內的技術水準。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:13:48.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:13:58.046000+08:00","text":"現在在野黨提出來的版本裡面，它有提出要在多少的百分比，甚至說本土的關鍵部材或者是本土的零件比例要到幾percent，80%嘛？","quality":0.807},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:14:00.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:14:00.987000+08:00","text":"他們的條例裡面，最高是有……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:14:03.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:14:04.825000+08:00","text":"對，4年後要達到80%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:14:05.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:14:09.669000+08:00","text":"4年後達到80%，現在有辦法完成這樣子的任務嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:14:09.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:14:20.939000+08:00","text":"其實現在的話，依據我們的統計，一些小型無人機大概已經有70%可以達到國產化，然後中型的大概有6成可以達到國產化。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:14:21.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:14:49.393000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，在野黨提出來的這個目的是達到80%的話，我擔心在時間上面來不來得及，我怕時間上面如果來不及的話，我們的產量等於無法用其他國家，我們是去中化嘛，但是其他友盟的國家，跟我們友善的國家，跟我們互補的國家，等於我們沒辦法進這些重要的關鍵部材零組件去完成無人機發展的目標，這樣怎麼辦？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:14:49.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:15:00.157000+08:00","text":"是，我們也是比較擔心，因為無人機迭代的速度非常快，有一些零組件可能目前我們國內還是需要向國外採購，如果再去訂國產化比例的話，就怕委員剛剛提到的這個問題，我們擔心會有這樣的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:15:15.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:15:24.902000+08:00","text":"接下來請國防部次長，或者是副總長執行官也可以，一起好了，那就簡單地講。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T15:15:24.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:15:24.902000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:15:26.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:15:38.405000+08:00","text":"想請教一下，我們看到在野黨的一些提案裡面，有說分三地做生產的基地，你們的看法跟意見如何？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T15:15:39.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:15:50.769000+08:00","text":"報告委員，有關於在野黨在它的條例裡頭所規定的地點，我相信我們臺灣各地都有相當多的廠商。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T15:15:53.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:15:54.170000+08:00","text":"國防部的條例……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:15:54.170000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T15:15:56.051000+08:00","text":"分散，它的意思就是分散。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T15:15:56.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:16:07.997000+08:00","text":"對，重要的是要最快的速度滿足我們的作戰需求，所以只要是能夠符合我們作戰需求的，我們都會去加以採購，納入作戰序列。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T15:16:08.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:16:26.249000+08:00","text":"至於要有哪些地方強制分配、怎麼樣分配，實際上這個會造成我們在採購還有產業發展上失去彈性，反而不利於我們國防快速建立戰力的目標。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:16:26.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:16:33.055000+08:00","text":"好，最後一個問題我想請教，在分散生產這方面，有它的道理在嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T15:16:34.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:16:34.700000+08:00","text":"當然啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T15:16:35.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:16:51.489000+08:00","text":"就韌性來說，的確，如果我們能夠分散，能夠將利益、國防產業的效益擴大到最大，是有它的好處，但是我剛剛有強調，必須先滿足我們的作戰需求。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:16:52.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:17:07.092000+08:00","text":"好，因為這個要權衡一下，我對這一點是既有疑慮，但是一方面又覺得分散能夠增強韌性這件事情也是要納入考量，所以這個部分可能要先研究。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:17:08.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:17:47.824000+08:00","text":"如果我們的目標是追求韌性，當一地的生產被斷鏈了，接下來至少有其他地方可以作為備位的提供者，在戰時的時候這個又特別重要，可是在平時的話，我們是要快速獲得這些能力，快速獲得這些裝備，理論上誰能夠生產我們就要向它採購，不管是在哪一區域，所以平時跟戰時有不同的需求，但是我們現在又追求韌性，我認為這部分可能要跟在野黨溝通一下到底怎麼樣權衡。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:17:48.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:00.506000+08:00","text":"特別是現在在承平時期的話，我們是不是先不要這麼強硬地說要分這麼多地，還是說它真的有它的必要性？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:01.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:03.507000+08:00","text":"這個部分我覺得要溝通，因為有它的道理在。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:03.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:06.408000+08:00","text":"剛才你也有講，有它的道理在，但是也有它的缺陷在……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:06.408000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:07.408000+08:00","text":"當然，是，我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:06.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:17.591000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分我們瞭解一下，盤整一下到底夠不夠，如果不夠的話就要去說服在野黨，說因為現在的狀況，承平時期真的不夠。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:17.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:27.769000+08:00","text":"我們可以理解他們要在三個不同地區生產的看法，可是如果在承平時期，這樣的做法似乎不是最好的做法，這個部分就要來溝通一下，好不好？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"黃副總長執行官志偉","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:28.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:28.512000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（王委員安祥代）","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:29.012000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:31.869143+08:00","text":"感謝陳冠廷委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（王委員安祥代）","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:32.169143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:40.169143+08:00","text":"接下來請賴惠員委員質詢，賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（王委員安祥代）","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:40.469143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:48.469143+08:00","text":"接下來請王世堅委員質詢，王世堅委員、王世堅委員，王世堅委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（王委員安祥代）","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:48.769143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:52.197714+08:00","text":"接下來有請洪毓祥委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1297,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（15時8分）我們請經濟部次長。"],["主席：請經濟部。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長好。次長，在野黨的2,400億這個部分是一般公務預算嘛，在一般公務預算裡面，它有提到一些產業振興的概念。我們的無人載具之前有一個產業振興相關的條款，我看你們今天的書面報告，主計總處也好，經濟部的書面報告也好，都有提到一個442億元的無人載具統籌計畫，預計是114到119年，投入442億元給無人載具提供發展，這2,400億跟現有的442億無人載具產業發展計畫有沒有雷同之處？"],["何次長晉滄：裡面有一部分會用在產業輔導，我想是雷同的啦！也就是說我們現在已經有統籌型計畫在對產業輔導了，而且裡面所提到、所設計的相關獎勵或是租稅抵減、投資，其實在產創條例裡面，本來廠商現在就可以應用這方面的相關優惠，所以在野黨設計出的這些條文，其實說真的，現在不管是我們統籌型計畫還是現有的法規，廠商都可以依循，可以使用政府所提供的相關輔導資源。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，你剛剛提到包含租稅還有一些財政上面的輔助等等，這個442億元可能有重複的地方，不僅僅是重複，會不會有牴觸的地方？這邊已經有規定，你再另行規定的話，以哪一個為主？"],["何次長晉滄：早上也有委員提到會不會牴觸憲法？因為立法院應該只能審行政院提出來的預算，這一次在野黨的版本裡面有提到它要編列預算，這個是違憲的。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是，我先不講它違憲，我們先講假設已經有了無人載具產業發展統籌計畫，裡面的條目跟他們提出來的2,400億的計畫互相重疊，一個比較多一個比較少，或者是相反，一個比較少一個比較多的狀況之下，是以哪一個為主？"],["何次長晉滄：當然我們現在為了要趕快輔導產業的話，目前是以統籌型計畫的推動為主。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果在野黨提出2,400億的話，那是不是最好的方式？如果他們真的想要對無人載具提高投資，提高我們的量能還有產線，未來做民轉軍的時候，在遇到國家緊急狀態的時候能夠擴增、擴建的話，無人載具統籌計畫的追加預算是不是也有幫助？"],["何次長晉滄：在野黨是用公務預算的方式編列，公務預算其實會有幾個效果：第一個，可能預算編列的時候會有排擠的效果；第二個，也有可能有預算會被刪減的問題；第三個，預算也有可能有被審查時程延宕的問題。所以如果國防部現在提出了這個特別預算的編列，讓廠商可以看得到未來有一個很穩定的預算編列，而且他們也願意來投資，或是說在研發者的工作上面能夠多做一些努力的話，其實他們也比較願意做這方面的資本投入。我想國防部增加採購的能量，對國內的無人機業者來講，他們也比較能夠吃下一個定心丸，願意來投入長期研發的工作。"],["陳委員冠廷：接下來我想要請教一下，包含經濟部還有中科院的院長也可以一併來，我們就針對他們提到本土化的部分進入更細節，就是剛才提到的，不管是晶片也好，還是一些主要的關鍵部材，我們現在本土化有辦法達到在野黨要求的比例嗎？"],["程副院長一誠：我是中科院副院長。跟委員報告，包含關鍵零組件的本土化，我們也希望能夠配合經濟部的統籌型計畫，然後我們有一個多元運用方案，也希望在那裡面提升國內的技術水準。"],["陳委員冠廷：現在在野黨提出來的版本裡面，它有提出要在多少的百分比，甚至說本土的關鍵部材或者是本土的零件比例要到幾percent，80%嘛？他們的條例裡面，最高是有……"],["何次長晉滄：對，4年後要達到80%。"],["陳委員冠廷：4年後達到80%，現在有辦法完成這樣子的任務嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：其實現在的話，依據我們的統計，一些小型無人機大概已經有70%可以達到國產化，然後中型的大概有6成可以達到國產化。"],["陳委員冠廷：我的意思是說，在野黨提出來的這個目的是達到80%的話，我擔心在時間上面來不來得及，我怕時間上面如果來不及的話，我們的產量等於無法用其他國家，我們是去中化嘛，但是其他友盟的國家，跟我們友善的國家，跟我們互補的國家，等於我們沒辦法進這些重要的關鍵部材零組件去完成無人機發展的目標，這樣怎麼辦？"],["何次長晉滄：是，我們也是比較擔心，因為無人機迭代的速度非常快，有一些零組件可能目前我們國內還是需要向國外採購，如果再去訂國產化比例的話，就怕委員剛剛提到的這個問題，我們擔心會有這樣的問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：接下來請國防部次長，或者是副總長執行官也可以，一起好了，那就簡單地講。"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：想請教一下，我們看到在野黨的一些提案裡面，有說分三地做生產的基地，你們的看法跟意見如何？"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：報告委員，有關於在野黨在它的條例裡頭所規定的地點，我相信我們臺灣各地都有相當多的廠商。國防部的條例……"],["陳委員冠廷：分散，它的意思就是分散。"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：對，重要的是要最快的速度滿足我們的作戰需求，所以只要是能夠符合我們作戰需求的，我們都會去加以採購，納入作戰序列。至於要有哪些地方強制分配、怎麼樣分配，實際上這個會造成我們在採購還有產業發展上失去彈性，反而不利於我們國防快速建立戰力的目標。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，最後一個問題我想請教，在分散生產這方面，有它的道理在嗎？"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：當然啦！就韌性來說，的確，如果我們能夠分散，能夠將利益、國防產業的效益擴大到最大，是有它的好處，但是我剛剛有強調，必須先滿足我們的作戰需求。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，因為這個要權衡一下，我對這一點是既有疑慮，但是一方面又覺得分散能夠增強韌性這件事情也是要納入考量，所以這個部分可能要先研究。","如果我們的目標是追求韌性，當一地的生產被斷鏈了，接下來至少有其他地方可以作為備位的提供者，在戰時的時候這個又特別重要，可是在平時的話，我們是要快速獲得這些能力，快速獲得這些裝備，理論上誰能夠生產我們就要向它採購，不管是在哪一區域，所以平時跟戰時有不同的需求，但是我們現在又追求韌性，我認為這部分可能要跟在野黨溝通一下到底怎麼樣權衡。","特別是現在在承平時期的話，我們是不是先不要這麼強硬地說要分這麼多地，還是說它真的有它的必要性？這個部分我覺得要溝通，因為有它的道理在。剛才你也有講，有它的道理在，但是也有它的缺陷在……"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：當然，是，我們……"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這個部分我們瞭解一下，盤整一下到底夠不夠，如果不夠的話就要去說服在野黨，說因為現在的狀況，承平時期真的不夠。我們可以理解他們要在三個不同地區生產的看法，可是如果在承平時期，這樣的做法似乎不是最好的做法，這個部分就要來溝通一下，好不好？"],["黃副總長執行官志偉：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員安祥代）：感謝陳冠廷委員的質詢。","接下來請賴惠員委員質詢，賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","接下來請王世堅委員質詢，王世堅委員、王世堅委員，王世堅委員不在。","接下來有請洪毓祥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}