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我想我還是先停在這邊早上聽了那麼多有幾個我還是特別揪出來看一下第一個我們常聽國防部當早上顧部長或大家的說法就是一定要特別預算然後就表示說我一定會有長期的訂單"},{"start":56.601,"end":81.638,"text":"我會比較有這一個整體性 不會延遲然後呢 也不會排擠那我只要特別講特別預算一定有它特別預算編列的原則那這一次無人機採購也不是什麼國防戰爭發生啦所以當然你們會凹啦反正這是國防啊什麼的這個I don't care但是"},{"start":82.659,"end":106.152,"text":"你說不會排擠特別預算不會排擠一般的公務預算這是你從法條來講從我們人民的角度來看這都是我的納稅錢那也是錢別人的這個錢下去也是從我的納稅錢出來不是從你的口袋出來花別人的錢我們都要特別謹慎特別用"},{"start":109.96,"end":130.675,"text":"而不是花自己的錢 斤斤計較 花別人的錢 花納稅人的錢好像很大方 要思考清楚所以我一直很覺得這種東西 我如果是一般的民眾老百姓 我覺得我管理特別預算 公務預算 那都是錢都是納稅錢 不可能憑空跑出來然後給特別預算 不會延遲這我也聽不懂我馬太安西考察了兩次 我們也是編了特別預算"},{"start":140.758,"end":165.526,"text":"進度有準時嗎?隨便舉的很多例子 我只是舉近期的嘛所以這一切 跟你什麼預算也沒關係啦跟你的執行力 有很大的關係啦國安部也順便聽啦 我沒有要叫你站起來就是這樣子啊好 再而你們講說 這沒有特別預算廠商沒有單他不會想要投資"},{"start":171.721,"end":197.554,"text":"這也是很奇怪我問次長50多年前我們晶片台積電成立有特別預算嗎沒有對不對有國發基金的投資有台積電派人到美國寄轉回來先成立聯電再成立台積電經過50年技術深耕"},{"start":200.598,"end":204.641,"text":"只要有市場台灣的廠商絕對比你們這些部門都厲害我做產業發展這麼久也在產業待過市場有商機有廠商自然會投資廠商不是靠政府的訂單去養大的所以我聽你們這個謬論我就覺得莫名其妙沒有特別預算都可以發展那如果照你這樣講那我請問你AI重不重要"},{"start":230.094,"end":239.237,"text":"很重要我們是編新十大AI建設有特別預算嗎?沒有 我們只有AI基本法軟體產業斬蛋經營每次跟經濟部跟稅劃部講說那你們要給我們一些預算什麼也沒有 我們還是這樣活我們還是可以外銷"},{"start":257.318,"end":270.107,"text":"我不是當個指導教授是雄風一 逆向工程有參與雄風二 我在日本上也有參與本來這個就是學院產業要能夠支撐所以我聽起來這些東西我都沒辦法接受然後其實"},{"start":284.229,"end":289.534,"text":"我跟院長出訪美國的時候很多人說我早上也聽了什麼一謀論然後還給你扣什麼抗中保台新聞莫名其妙然後說我們在美國不支持在美國表達很支持再回來台灣說這個用什麼什麼年度預算去卡你錯"},{"start":309.895,"end":337.754,"text":"我在美國遇見所有的部會官員我表達立場都一樣本黨支持無人機UAV產業發展But我不支持編特別預算我支持編年度預算他沒有反對我他說I don't care反正就是要編嘛然後我希望你們台灣可以做UAV的發展充實我們的導電所以錢放哪裡"},{"start":339.602,"end":367.104,"text":"不重要 重要是我們要能夠做出來這我可以負責 這我講的我在美國部會都是這樣講我們整個來看我們以前做這些的研發因為國安部說的 我也認同我們要國產化 因為它是國防供應所以基本上國防部供應的你是一個採購單位"},{"start":369.366,"end":397.604,"text":"如果我們按照軍民科技研發我們在技術師也是跟中科院不管你是軍規降額到商用或者是你軍規的使用需要一些關鍵區需要民間產業投入研發那我們就開啊我們經濟部、技術師這麼多對不對 包含有跟中科院、工研院軍工、製作會、國科會也有學校的老師、教授去投入相關的技術啊這都沒有問題啊"},{"start":399.366,"end":422.143,"text":"重點是你們的軍規的需求開出來餵給我們我們就可以來評估到底技術的缺口在哪裡啊如果現在的民間廠商做不出來就是法人科專下去啊民間的廠商可以做出來就是業界科專啊法人科專終究在做發現我國內技術不夠我們本來就可以從國外寄轉啊這些濾鏡都存在啊不然你怎麼達到國產化"},{"start":429.841,"end":450.376,"text":"剛剛你講公共工程委員會ABCDE的指引你如果去把公共工程委員會看出來它是訂的啊 訂了之後經濟部給我的回函是看作業單位 就是看使用單位嘛你要ABCDE哪一個你們各位去把公共工程委員會看清楚啊如果國防部照你這樣的要求整機第一程一定是A嘛"},{"start":452.486,"end":471.032,"text":"然後之後你再看你的部分哪些是CD那如果照經濟部的回函在你無人機產業發展條例的時候在這個那個統籌型的計畫的時候那就是你國防部去定嘛那按照顧部長的要求就是整機包含所有零組件都是A本國製造"},{"start":473.82,"end":499.825,"text":"就這樣子但是我們經濟部這裡頭就要負責去快速的去把國產化的進度弄出來你們講的三金二元 講的系統整合 機械硬體這些東西各位無人機就是一台會飛的PC啊我們台灣以前在做PC 做伺服器 做電腦這邊零組件有變特別條例 特別預算嗎沒有啊"},{"start":506.124,"end":529.017,"text":"所以我就覺得說如果你把我們台灣科技產業發展的條件來做既然你都說我們科技產業的硬體很好那就是照這樣的方式來做所以我就會放到經濟部去帶領這樣子的產業不管是法人 民間去滿足你國防部的軍規採購的需求就這樣子"},{"start":529.895,"end":553.954,"text":"拿出來之後我們廠商不管是計轉或者是他自有研發得出產品產品之後就進到符合國防部的需求國防部就是一個VMV的單位嘛我開規格完之後那你們這些民間廠商做出來你規格需求是你開的你要去做validation啊以前中科院包給我們在做也是這樣子啊"},{"start":555.441,"end":583.492,"text":"我也是審查過你們中科院的一些案子啊 當過審查委員啊所以我覺得都很正常自然重點是你們要照做預算要編他也不會排擠啊 如果在賴總統5%的GDP夠啊不夠你就編嘛編為什麼你們就會假設說我們在野黨一定會擋年度預算一定會擋公務預算 一定會像今天這樣子沒啊"},{"start":587.911,"end":595.037,"text":"這個預算一直沒有審是因為沒有人要編軍公教的警消條例行政預先不編啊三讀通過的東西不編啊邏輯順序都要搞清楚嘛那如果是商用的部分我也反對經濟部的回函說根據各部門的採購規範還有他特殊需求自己訂不用國人機商用的沒有那麼多差異性啊"},{"start":615.606,"end":627.661,"text":"巡航安全東西 臨時有差異性的話 頂多只是10%以內的差異我建議就是上政府共同供應採購區約上政府共同供應採購區約 經濟不做的那麼多 對不對在我們的軟採甚至跟台銀這邊 那你的資安檢測 費用供應檢測就可以在這個地方"},{"start":634.589,"end":651.813,"text":"這個不是牽扯到軍規 軍規就是交給國防部對不對 交給你們各軍種去驗 是不是滿足你的規格商規的部分全部給我上政府共同供應採購契約就不會有教育部那種一萬 一台只要一萬多塊 一定要給我買到七萬多塊那算什麼特殊性 我有想嗎其中我不知道不要寫過AI傳統 不要寫過群飛系統 不要寫過AI控制這樣"},{"start":663.174,"end":689.497,"text":"所以我就覺得這種東西就是我為什麼會這樣子終結啦我不要耽誤太多時間了或者是憋了很久今天我的看法我會跟林大華文很接近當我們這個今天國安部要求的就是這樣子的採購就是希望台灣自治國產化百分之百早上顧立雄部長說的"},{"start":690.714,"end":704.428,"text":"至於他是不是說太快還是你要分級我覺得這個日後再執行可以考慮因為我也知道你們的三經二卵你們的有些東西就是沒辦法在明年所以你告訴我明年可以達到但我不認為"},{"start":705.802,"end":733.757,"text":"我不認為所以這個早上也許他講太快你們國安部可以回去試看看是不是我跟委員報告一下是應該是這樣講就是說國安部採購這個部分他是要達到全機飛鴻不是說全機都是國產因為全機國產目前來講確實是如同剛剛委員講的我們有一些技術缺口有些關鍵領土鏈還是要從這個你知道嗎報告次長我告訴你"},{"start":734.946,"end":757.637,"text":"在公共工程會採購這裡A他有訂AVCD嘛你出去看喔那個東西A完然後就跳到CD沒有一層是V的欸我也是覺得很奇怪公共工程會訂這個東西改天也是要你們去好好研究一下我總覺得這件事情然後呢你們440億除了研發之外到底能不能趕得上來國防部在裡頭來440億國防部你們賺多少錢"},{"start":762.489,"end":780.237,"text":"除了這2100億在國安部的442億裡面你們各自部位編嘛 送到經濟部會診啊國安部佔了80億80億嘛 也是有錢嘛那如果你今天就像剛剛陳冠廷委員講的啊如果你錢不夠你就把它追加到這裡啊 也行啊"},{"start":781.328,"end":807.727,"text":"但是你們要身為一個怎麼樣去做這樣子的會診或什麼東西我就覺得就是執行力的問題所以我們才需要一個Committee來做好不好我語重心長就是因為我這整個參與過整個軍民科技的專案也參與過這樣子的技轉商轉的研發我希望就是參考這是我覺得是可以做的想法好不好好 謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:51.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:51.469000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們請經濟部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:51.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:51.790000+08:00","text":"請經濟部次長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:18:57.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:18:57.915000+08:00","text":"召委好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:19:21.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:19:32.811000+08:00","text":"好，我想早上聽了那麼多，有幾個我還是特別揪出來看一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:19:33.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:19:56.327000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們聽到早上國防部顧部長或是大家的說法，就是一定要特別預算，然後表示我一定會有長期的訂單，我會比較有整體性，不會延遲，也不會排擠。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:19:56.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:20:05.993000+08:00","text":"我只是要特別講，特別預算一定有特別預算編列的原則，而這次無人機採購也不是因為什麼國防、戰爭發生。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:20:07.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:20:26.787000+08:00","text":"當然你們會拗國防等理由，I don't care，但是說特別預算不會排擠一般公務預算，這是就法條來講，從人民的角度來看，這都是我的納稅錢，也是錢啊！","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:20:27.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:20:33.070000+08:00","text":"編了這筆錢也是從我的納稅錢支出，不是從你的口袋出啊！","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:20:34.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:20:36.832000+08:00","text":"花別人的錢都要特別謹慎，對不對？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:20:40.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:20:46.964000+08:00","text":"而不是花自己的錢斤斤計較，花別人的錢、花納稅人的錢卻好像很大方，要思考清楚。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:20:50.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:20:58.973000+08:00","text":"如果我是一般老百姓，管你是特別預算或公務預算，那都是錢，都是納稅錢，不可能憑空跑出來。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:20:58.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:00.274000+08:00","text":"然後，給特別預算不會延遲？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:00.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:00.334000+08:00","text":"這我也聽不懂。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:00.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:01.655000+08:00","text":"我去馬太鞍溪考察兩次，你們也編了特別預算啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:11.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:14.679000+08:00","text":"但進度準時嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:14.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:16.620000+08:00","text":"隨便舉都有很多例子，我只是舉近期的。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:17.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:23.602000+08:00","text":"所以這一切跟屬於什麼預算沒關係，而是跟執行力有很大的關係。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:25.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:29.143000+08:00","text":"國防部也順便聽，我沒有要求你站起來。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:29.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:29.784000+08:00","text":"就是這樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:31.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:43.401000+08:00","text":"再來，有人講沒有特別預算，廠商就沒有單，也不會想投資，這也很奇怪。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:45.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:56.388000+08:00","text":"我問次長，五十多年前做晶片，台積電成立時有特別預算嗎？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:56.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:21:59.089000+08:00","text":"沒有，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:21:59.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:08.534000+08:00","text":"有國發基金的投資，有台積電派人到美國技轉回來，先成立聯電、再成立台積電，經過五十年，技術深耕。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:22:11.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:13.259000+08:00","text":"只要有市場，臺灣的廠商絕對比你們這些部門都厲害。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:22:13.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:15.121000+08:00","text":"我做產業發展那麼久，也在產業待過，只要市場有商機，廠商自然會投資，廠商不是靠政府訂單養大的，所以我聽到你們這些謬論都覺得莫名其妙，因為沒有特別預算都可以發展。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:22:15.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:15.621000+08:00","text":"照你這樣講，那我請問你，AI重不重要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:22:41.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:41.314000+08:00","text":"重要啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:22:42.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:46.256000+08:00","text":"但我們是編新十大AI建設。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:22:46.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:46.896000+08:00","text":"有特別預算嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:22:46.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:48.196000+08:00","text":"沒有，只有AI基本法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:22:48.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:48.876000+08:00","text":"我們軟體產業慘澹經營，每次要求經濟部、數發部，該給我們一些預算了吧？","quality":0.633},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:22:49.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:22:50.237000+08:00","text":"也沒有，但我們還是這樣活、我們還是可以外銷啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:23:08.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:23:14.662000+08:00","text":"我的博士班指導教授有參與雄風一逆向工程，雄風二我在念博班時也參與。","quality":0.645},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:23:14.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:23:20.706000+08:00","text":"本來就是學研、產業都要能支撐，所以這些東西在我聽來都沒辦法接受啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:23:21.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:23:38.612000+08:00","text":"其實我跟院長出訪美國的時候有很多人說，我早上也聽到什麼陰謀論，還可以扣什麼抗中保臺新聞，莫名其妙！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:23:38.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:23:40.534000+08:00","text":"還有人說我們在美國表達很支持，回來臺灣後卻用年度預算等等去卡，錯！","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:24:00.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:24:16.646000+08:00","text":"我在美國遇見所有部會官員時表達的立場都一樣：本黨支持無人機UAV產業發展，but不支持編特別預算，而是支持編年度預算。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:24:17.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:24:26.552000+08:00","text":"他們沒有反對我，而是說I don't care，反正就是要編，然後希望臺灣可以發展UAV，以充實我們的島鏈。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:24:26.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:24:36.226000+08:00","text":"所以錢放哪裡不重要，重要的是能夠做出來。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:24:36.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:24:43.192000+08:00","text":"這我可以負責，這是我講的，我在美國都是這樣講。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:24:43.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:24:53.960000+08:00","text":"整體來看，我們以前做這些研發，對於國防部說的我們也認同，就是要國產化，因為是國防供應。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:24:54.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:25:14.575000+08:00","text":"基本上，國防部是採購單位，按照軍民科技研發，技術司也是跟中科院合作，不管是軍規降為商用，或者軍規使用上，有一些關鍵技術需要民間產業投入研發，那我們就開啊！","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:25:16.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:25:28.583000+08:00","text":"反正經濟部技術司這麼多計畫，跟中科院、工研院、金工中心、資策會、國科會合作，也有學校老師、教授投入相關技術，這些都沒有問題啊！","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:25:30.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:25:38.172000+08:00","text":"重點是你們軍規需求開出來、餵給我們，我們就可以評估技術的缺口到底在哪裡。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:25:39.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:25:42.535000+08:00","text":"如果現在民間的廠商做不出來，就用法人科專啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:25:43.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:25:45.417000+08:00","text":"若民間的廠商可以做，就是業界科專啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:25:46.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:25:50.881000+08:00","text":"法人科專由中科院做，一旦發現國內技術不夠，本來就可以從國外技轉。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:25:50.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:25:53.123000+08:00","text":"這些路徑都存在，不然怎麼達到國產化？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:26:00.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:26:15.351000+08:00","text":"剛剛講公共工程委員會A、B、C、D、E指引，公共工程委員會是定了，可是定了之後，經濟部給我的回函是看作業單位，也就是使用單位要A、B、C、D、E中的哪一個。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:26:15.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:26:17.393000+08:00","text":"各位去把公共工程委員會的規範看清楚啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:26:17.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:26:54.742000+08:00","text":"如果照國防部這樣的要求，整機第一層一定是A，之後再看哪些部分是C、D，照經濟部的回函，辦理無人機發展統籌型計畫時就由國防部定，那麼按照顧部長的要求，就是整機，包含所以零組件都是A──本國製造，就是這樣，經濟部在這裡頭就要負責快速把國產化進度弄出來。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:26:54.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:27:10.385000+08:00","text":"你們講了三晶二軟，講了系統整合、機械硬體這些議題，各位，無人機就是一臺會飛的PC，臺灣以前做PC、做伺服器、做電腦周邊零組件時，有編特別條例、特別預算嗎？","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:27:10.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:27:10.805000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:27:17.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:27:21.486000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得應該以臺灣科技發展的條件來做。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:27:21.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:27:25.869000+08:00","text":"既然你都說我們科技產業的硬體很好，那就照這個方式做嘛！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:27:27.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:27:39.997000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得放在由經濟部去帶領這樣的產業，不管是法人、民間，滿足國防部的軍規採購需求，這樣就好。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:27:41.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:27:52.624000+08:00","text":"做出來之後，廠商不管以技轉或自有研發得出產品，都要看是否符合國防部的需求，因為國防部就是V&V單位嘛！","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:27:54.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:01.451000+08:00","text":"國防部開完規格之後，由這些民間廠商做出來，既然規格、需求是你開的，你就要做validation啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:02.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:04.774000+08:00","text":"以前中科院包給我們做也是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:06.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:17.385000+08:00","text":"我也審查過中科院一些案子，當過審查委員，所以都是很正常、自然，重點是你們有沒有照做。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:18.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:23.107000+08:00","text":"預算要編，也不會排擠，照賴總統百分之五GDP的規劃，夠啊！","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:24.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:25.728000+08:00","text":"不夠就編嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:27.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:33.391000+08:00","text":"為什麼你們都假設我們在野黨一定會擋年度預算，一定會擋公務預算，一定會像今天這樣？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:34.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:34.472000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:38.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:43.795000+08:00","text":"預算會一直沒有審，是因為沒有人要編軍公教警消條例，行政院先不編，三讀通過的東西不編啊！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:43.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:44.035000+08:00","text":"邏輯、順序都要搞清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:44.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:28:45.696000+08:00","text":"如果是商用部分，我也反對經濟部回函說的，根據各部門採購規範，依其特殊需求自己定，不用！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:28:45.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:29:14.836000+08:00","text":"無人機商用的沒有那麼多差異性，巡航、安檢等臨時有差異性，頂多也只是10%以內的差異，我建議上政府共同供應採購契約。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:29:14.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:29:27.209000+08:00","text":"上政府共同供應採購契約經濟部做了那麼多，包含軟採、甚至臺銀這邊，資安檢測、非紅供應鏈檢測就可以安排在這個地方，這不牽扯軍規。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:29:27.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:29:42.793000+08:00","text":"軍規交給國防部、交給各軍種驗證是否滿足其規格，商規全部上政府共同供應採購契約，就不會有教育部那種情況，一臺只要一萬多塊也要買到七萬多塊，有什麼特殊性我想不通，欺騙我這樣未曾寫過AI Drone、未曾寫過群飛系統、未曾寫過AI控制研究的人。","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:29:56.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:29:56.997000+08:00","text":"為什麼我會這樣說？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:29:57.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:29:57.817000+08:00","text":"我總結啦！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:29:58.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:30:01.561000+08:00","text":"不要耽誤太多時間，我只是憋了很久。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:30:05.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:30:20.477000+08:00","text":"今天我的看法跟林岱樺委員很接近，當國防部要求這樣的採購，就是希望臺灣自製、國產化百分之百，如早上顧立雄部長說的。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:30:21.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:30:42.485000+08:00","text":"至於他是不是說太快還是你們要分級，我覺得日後在執行上可以考慮，因為我也知道包含三晶二軟在內，有些東西就是沒辦法在明年做到，雖然你告訴我明年可以達到，但我不認為，所以早上也許是他講太快，國防部可以回去試試看。","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:30:43.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:30:44.186000+08:00","text":"是不是容我向委員報告一下？是。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄：應該是這樣講","start":"2026-07-16T15:30:46.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:30:54.011000+08:00","text":"在國防部採購部分，要達到全機非紅，而不是全機都國產啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄：應該是這樣講","start":"2026-07-16T15:30:54.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:31:02.916000+08:00","text":"就目前來講，全機國產確實如同剛剛委員講的，我們有一些技術缺口，關鍵零組件還是要從……","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:31:04.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:31:22.334000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，公共工程委員會在採購上定有A、B、C、D，但你注意看，現在是A之後就跳到C、D，沒有屬於B這一層的，我也覺得很奇怪，對於公共工程委員會定的這個東西，你們改天也要好好研究一下，我總覺得要了解這件事情。","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:31:23.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:31:27.417000+08:00","text":"然後，你們的442億元除了研發之外，到底能不能趕上？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:31:27.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:31:28.637000+08:00","text":"國防部在442億元裡頭占多少錢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:31:33.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:31:36.590000+08:00","text":"除了2,100億之外，國防部在這442億元裡面占多少？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:31:37.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:31:39.732000+08:00","text":"因為部會是各自編，再送到經濟部彙整啊！","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:31:41.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:31:43.613000+08:00","text":"國防部占了80億元。80億元？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:31:44.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:31:44.974000+08:00","text":"也是有錢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:31:45.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:31:51.217000+08:00","text":"那麼如同剛剛陳冠廷委員講的，如果錢不夠，追加到這裡也行啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:31:52.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:32:03.276000+08:00","text":"但是你們要怎麼彙整，我覺得就是執行力的問題，所以才說要由一個committee來做，好不好？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:32:03.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:32:05.197000+08:00","text":"我語重心長啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-16T15:32:05.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:32:17.426000+08:00","text":"因為我參與過軍民科技的專案，也參與過技轉、商轉的研發，所以我希望提供參考，這是我覺得可以做的想法，好不好？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T15:32:17.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T15:32:18.727000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T15:32:19.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T15:32:23.227000+08:00","text":"感謝洪毓祥委員的質詢、感謝次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（洪委員毓祥）","start":"2026-07-16T15:32:23.527000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T15:32:26.669857+08:00","text":"接下來請羅明才委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1333,"blocks":[["洪委員毓祥：（15時18分）謝謝主席，我們請經濟部。"],["主席：請經濟部次長。"],["何次長晉滄：召委好。"],["洪委員毓祥：好，我想早上聽了那麼多，有幾個我還是特別揪出來看一下。第一個，我們聽到早上國防部顧部長或是大家的說法，就是一定要特別預算，然後表示我一定會有長期的訂單，我會比較有整體性，不會延遲，也不會排擠。我只是要特別講，特別預算一定有特別預算編列的原則，而這次無人機採購也不是因為什麼國防、戰爭發生。當然你們會拗國防等理由，I don't care，但是說特別預算不會排擠一般公務預算，這是就法條來講，從人民的角度來看，這都是我的納稅錢，也是錢啊！編了這筆錢也是從我的納稅錢支出，不是從你的口袋出啊！花別人的錢都要特別謹慎，對不對？而不是花自己的錢斤斤計較，花別人的錢、花納稅人的錢卻好像很大方，要思考清楚。如果我是一般老百姓，管你是特別預算或公務預算，那都是錢，都是納稅錢，不可能憑空跑出來。然後，給特別預算不會延遲？這我也聽不懂。我去馬太鞍溪考察兩次，你們也編了特別預算啊！但進度準時嗎？隨便舉都有很多例子，我只是舉近期的。所以這一切跟屬於什麼預算沒關係，而是跟執行力有很大的關係。國防部也順便聽，我沒有要求你站起來。就是這樣啊！","再來，有人講沒有特別預算，廠商就沒有單，也不會想投資，這也很奇怪。我問次長，五十多年前做晶片，台積電成立時有特別預算嗎？沒有，對不對？有國發基金的投資，有台積電派人到美國技轉回來，先成立聯電、再成立台積電，經過五十年，技術深耕。只要有市場，臺灣的廠商絕對比你們這些部門都厲害。我做產業發展那麼久，也在產業待過，只要市場有商機，廠商自然會投資，廠商不是靠政府訂單養大的，所以我聽到你們這些謬論都覺得莫名其妙，因為沒有特別預算都可以發展。照你這樣講，那我請問你，AI重不重要？重要啊！但我們是編新十大AI建設。有特別預算嗎？沒有，只有AI基本法。我們軟體產業慘澹經營，每次要求經濟部、數發部，該給我們一些預算了吧？也沒有，但我們還是這樣活、我們還是可以外銷啊！我的博士班指導教授有參與雄風一逆向工程，雄風二我在念博班時也參與。本來就是學研、產業都要能支撐，所以這些東西在我聽來都沒辦法接受啊！","其實我跟院長出訪美國的時候有很多人說，我早上也聽到什麼陰謀論，還可以扣什麼抗中保臺新聞，莫名其妙！還有人說我們在美國表達很支持，回來臺灣後卻用年度預算等等去卡，錯！我在美國遇見所有部會官員時表達的立場都一樣：本黨支持無人機UAV產業發展，but不支持編特別預算，而是支持編年度預算。他們沒有反對我，而是說I don't care，反正就是要編，然後希望臺灣可以發展UAV，以充實我們的島鏈。所以錢放哪裡不重要，重要的是能夠做出來。這我可以負責，這是我講的，我在美國都是這樣講。","整體來看，我們以前做這些研發，對於國防部說的我們也認同，就是要國產化，因為是國防供應。基本上，國防部是採購單位，按照軍民科技研發，技術司也是跟中科院合作，不管是軍規降為商用，或者軍規使用上，有一些關鍵技術需要民間產業投入研發，那我們就開啊！反正經濟部技術司這麼多計畫，跟中科院、工研院、金工中心、資策會、國科會合作，也有學校老師、教授投入相關技術，這些都沒有問題啊！重點是你們軍規需求開出來、餵給我們，我們就可以評估技術的缺口到底在哪裡。如果現在民間的廠商做不出來，就用法人科專啊！若民間的廠商可以做，就是業界科專啊！法人科專由中科院做，一旦發現國內技術不夠，本來就可以從國外技轉。這些路徑都存在，不然怎麼達到國產化？","剛剛講公共工程委員會A、B、C、D、E指引，公共工程委員會是定了，可是定了之後，經濟部給我的回函是看作業單位，也就是使用單位要A、B、C、D、E中的哪一個。各位去把公共工程委員會的規範看清楚啊！如果照國防部這樣的要求，整機第一層一定是A，之後再看哪些部分是C、D，照經濟部的回函，辦理無人機發展統籌型計畫時就由國防部定，那麼按照顧部長的要求，就是整機，包含所以零組件都是A──本國製造，就是這樣，經濟部在這裡頭就要負責快速把國產化進度弄出來。你們講了三晶二軟，講了系統整合、機械硬體這些議題，各位，無人機就是一臺會飛的PC，臺灣以前做PC、做伺服器、做電腦周邊零組件時，有編特別條例、特別預算嗎？沒有啊！所以我覺得應該以臺灣科技發展的條件來做。既然你都說我們科技產業的硬體很好，那就照這個方式做嘛！所以我覺得放在由經濟部去帶領這樣的產業，不管是法人、民間，滿足國防部的軍規採購需求，這樣就好。做出來之後，廠商不管以技轉或自有研發得出產品，都要看是否符合國防部的需求，因為國防部就是V&V單位嘛！國防部開完規格之後，由這些民間廠商做出來，既然規格、需求是你開的，你就要做validation啊！以前中科院包給我們做也是這樣。我也審查過中科院一些案子，當過審查委員，所以都是很正常、自然，重點是你們有沒有照做。預算要編，也不會排擠，照賴總統百分之五GDP的規劃，夠啊！不夠就編嘛！為什麼你們都假設我們在野黨一定會擋年度預算，一定會擋公務預算，一定會像今天這樣？沒有啊！預算會一直沒有審，是因為沒有人要編軍公教警消條例，行政院先不編，三讀通過的東西不編啊！邏輯、順序都要搞清楚。","如果是商用部分，我也反對經濟部回函說的，根據各部門採購規範，依其特殊需求自己定，不用！無人機商用的沒有那麼多差異性，巡航、安檢等臨時有差異性，頂多也只是10%以內的差異，我建議上政府共同供應採購契約。上政府共同供應採購契約經濟部做了那麼多，包含軟採、甚至臺銀這邊，資安檢測、非紅供應鏈檢測就可以安排在這個地方，這不牽扯軍規。軍規交給國防部、交給各軍種驗證是否滿足其規格，商規全部上政府共同供應採購契約，就不會有教育部那種情況，一臺只要一萬多塊也要買到七萬多塊，有什麼特殊性我想不通，欺騙我這樣未曾寫過AI Drone、未曾寫過群飛系統、未曾寫過AI控制研究的人。","為什麼我會這樣說？我總結啦！不要耽誤太多時間，我只是憋了很久。今天我的看法跟林岱樺委員很接近，當國防部要求這樣的採購，就是希望臺灣自製、國產化百分之百，如早上顧立雄部長說的。至於他是不是說太快還是你們要分級，我覺得日後在執行上可以考慮，因為我也知道包含三晶二軟在內，有些東西就是沒辦法在明年做到，雖然你告訴我明年可以達到，但我不認為，所以早上也許是他講太快，國防部可以回去試試看。"],["何次長晉滄：是不是容我向委員報告一下？"],["洪委員毓祥：是。"],["何次長晉滄：應該是這樣講：在國防部採購部分，要達到全機非紅，而不是全機都國產啦！就目前來講，全機國產確實如同剛剛委員講的，我們有一些技術缺口，關鍵零組件還是要從……"],["洪委員毓祥：我告訴你，公共工程委員會在採購上定有A、B、C、D，但你注意看，現在是A之後就跳到C、D，沒有屬於B這一層的，我也覺得很奇怪，對於公共工程委員會定的這個東西，你們改天也要好好研究一下，我總覺得要了解這件事情。","然後，你們的442億元除了研發之外，到底能不能趕上？國防部在442億元裡頭占多少錢？除了2,100億之外，國防部在這442億元裡面占多少？因為部會是各自編，再送到經濟部彙整啊！"],["何次長晉滄：國防部占了80億元。"],["洪委員毓祥：80億元？也是有錢。那麼如同剛剛陳冠廷委員講的，如果錢不夠，追加到這裡也行啊！但是你們要怎麼彙整，我覺得就是執行力的問題，所以才說要由一個committee來做，好不好？我語重心長啊！因為我參與過軍民科技的專案，也參與過技轉、商轉的研發，所以我希望提供參考，這是我覺得可以做的想法，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：感謝洪毓祥委員的質詢、感謝次長。"],["主席（洪委員毓祥）：接下來請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}