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謝謝"},{"start":1853.049,"end":1867.245,"text":"好 那各團團都已經到場我們現在開會那本日會議協商主題是願會禁覆二讀委員羅志強等25人凝聚衛星廣播電視法第20條條文修正草案"},{"start":1868.186,"end":1891.479,"text":"那本案請前經本會期第八次院會決議 進覆二讀由國民黨黨團負責召集協商那我現在先介紹在場委員鍾嘉斌委員林國成委員林佩祥委員然後我們的列席官員我們列席官員有我們的"},{"start":1894.965,"end":1908.971,"text":"陳代理主委還有法務部的副司長林副司長然後我們的法律籌備處的林處長法律事務處的謝副處長"},{"start":1915.497,"end":1935.942,"text":"現在我們先請因為剛剛我們嘉賓兄是建議讓機關先講所以我就調整一下我就讓機關先講我們原來黨團代表每個人三分鐘這樣可以嗎可以我們就先請我們的國家通訊傳播委員會表示意見"},{"start":1938.672,"end":1962.837,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早安我這邊大概先表達NCC的基本的意見就是我們大概就建議不用修理由大概分成幾點第一點就必要性跟實用性而言因為深色 平淺 換照的最終的決定權是在NCC委員會議不是NCC委員會議前面的前一個程序諮詢會議"},{"start":1964.757,"end":1983.533,"text":"咨询会议本身它所做的会议的一些决定只是参考建议性质并不是行使公权令不宜把咨询会议的委员的发言甚至委员个人的名字都公布让它暴露在第一线上"},{"start":1985.514,"end":2002.061,"text":"如果是重大的個案也跟各位委員報告重大個案依據NCC組織法第10條第7項的規定是會舉行聽證會的聽證會本身也是公開也有直播所以這個東西我們是建議就不用處理如果況且如果"},{"start":2004.862,"end":2023.78,"text":"現在諮詢會議的資料在現行的體制下之前有相關的一些台北地院 台北高雄這兩個法院都有 判決書裡頭都有署名說這個諮詢會議的性質它並不是 它是純粹是諮詢性質如果它"},{"start":2029.625,"end":2056.586,"text":"公布了委員的個別意見跟他的名銜其實會無助於擴大公民參與跟廣納多元意見況且也跟各位報告實務上已經有相關的一些個案上我專家寫者為了公開有一些發言意見造成這個變成說是被人家騷擾跟騷也引起提起訴的"},{"start":2059.008,"end":2073.343,"text":"檢察官也對跟少數他人提起的起訴後續這種情況都有面臨輿論追殺或者一些外界人情壓力如果修正案通過的話這種情形恐怕會更加嚴重"},{"start":2075.385,"end":2093.839,"text":"第三點報告因為這個東西是牽涉也蠻多的我們會建議是說這個修正案的方向還是要多多聽外界的意見特別是業界的公協會的相關的意見以上先第一輪補充好 謝謝我們現在請各黨團代表發表意見要不要先請民進黨"},{"start":2105.353,"end":2123.751,"text":"好那麼對於剛剛NCC主管機關的說明我覺得可以需要更切合提案要旨因為我們看到主席就是本案的提案委員那麼剛剛的確NCC機關表達了所謂的諮詢委員聽起來有幾點諮詢委員本身"},{"start":2126.293,"end":2155.005,"text":"他不具有决策的能力资讯委员个人也不是受到监督的对象因此他们的意见纯属于公具有决策能力的委员做参考这种情况之下如果将资讯揭露是否会影响到资讯委员本身的参与意愿当然这样点听起来是言之成理但是我要回归到我们提案委员就是主席的提出"},{"start":2155.865,"end":2182.115,"text":"是说这个屡传咨询意见外泄于申请人以外之第三人申请人却无从知悉咨询会议之结论与评分之结果如果说咨询委员本身不具有决定的权利那这里怎么会有咨询会议的结论以及后面的评分结果呢这一点刚刚NCC好像没有说明因为这是提案委员的重点"},{"start":2183.215,"end":2201.638,"text":"这个说提案委员的重点是说咨询委员的会议的结论和评分的结果是有连带关系的因此才觉得不能够黑箱的来作业而且还泄露与申请人以外的第三人那就是更严重了所以说对于这两点前提第一"},{"start":2202.319,"end":2225.487,"text":"是不是有发生过咨询委员提供的意见那提供给非申请人以外的第三人而不是只有提供给NC的委员知道这一点其实我们应该要去就明第二个那到底这样的咨询会议的结论提供给委员NCC委员的内容是不是就是直接决定了评分的结果这个因果关系也要续明"},{"start":2226.147,"end":2241.842,"text":"不然的话这样的两个前提没有序名的情况之下难免人家会外界有对于NCC在一些审查作业上的黑箱作业的疑虑不过话说回来我们也觉得说我们的解放也可以来思考一下"},{"start":2242.543,"end":2259.12,"text":"因为没有办法确定没有办法确保资讯不会外泄就干脆把资讯都透明公开我想政府透明公开是减少贪腐减少弊端的最佳方法但是透明公开必须放在正确的地方"},{"start":2259.801,"end":2289.067,"text":"那如果说是因为没办法保密所以所有的秘密都不用保留那就通通公开好像也不是正确的做法应该要问的说如果这些内容是不应该有外泄的那应该是落实这些咨询过程当中的资讯应该只限定于相关人可以取得那至于不相干的人如果取得了应该是追究所以我就觉得NC刚刚的答复的第三点应该说明"},{"start":2289.767,"end":2314.907,"text":"那如果真有这些内容外泄的情况两个做法一个是干脆都公开通通透明不要管后果如何一种是怎么样落实不应该让这个资讯不当的给予不需要的人知道这一点的一个防弊的作为才是一个正办所以我们觉得这里面的这个公开咨询委员名单这里面让我们不禁联想到"},{"start":2316.389,"end":2335.644,"text":"以前民意机关行使投票权利的时候常常有亮票过去在一般的普通选举保持秘密投票是防止投票的人他被相关的人进行威胁也就是说你将投票的内容揭露于特定人"},{"start":2336.224,"end":2358.922,"text":"那是不是也有满足买票确认按照指示对价旅行的一个过程所以过去在普通选举为了杜绝买票是严禁亮票的但是民意机关内的投票反而是规定什么要记名那这为什么呢差别在于一般的民众他的投票是不需要接受外界监督的"},{"start":2359.582,"end":2366.411,"text":"那不需要接受外界监督我们要防止他被买票那就像咨询委员的意见如果说他"},{"start":2367.726,"end":2389.562,"text":"这个资讯他所提供的意见是可以被验证的那这个咨询委员他的意见是有影响到最后的审查的结果的那也可能造成了我们把审查委员的名单这个咨询委员的名单咨询委员的意见一股脑的介入那更容易让想要意图不法去影响的人有所介入的空间"},{"start":2390.782,"end":2410.454,"text":"我去要求諮詢委員做特定符合特定立場的一個建議結果我還可以確認說這個諮詢委員有沒有照我要求的不當的對價去進行這反而就會造成一般選民所謂的秘密投票他所要保障的公益被破壞也就是說諮詢委員本身"},{"start":2411.614,"end":2437.135,"text":"如果要求他的名單跟他的表達意見被揭露會被適得其反反而讓諮詢委員更容易受到外部力量的不當影響跟介入這一點我們要審慎的去考量因為諮詢委員的角色他畢竟不是委員他不能對最後的結果做影響那因此他又不是一個他如果是一個需要被監督的對象就像民意機關的代表一樣我們的投票行為是要受到選民監督的"},{"start":2437.515,"end":2460.983,"text":"那當然就要怎麼樣一律的公開透明但是如果諮詢委員本身他不是一個受大眾監督的對象那將他的意見提供給有權決定機關的意見揭露出來然後反而是不是造成了更多不法介入的空間我是覺得同樣的手段會引起兩種不同的結果這個要審慎的評估"},{"start":2461.963,"end":2470.051,"text":"那我還是再重申這個NCC剛剛並沒有對於說到底諮詢委員的意見是不是就等同於最後的評論的結果"},{"start":2472.352,"end":2498.437,"text":"第二个那过去是不是的确有不应该将咨询委员的审查提供的建议予以不当外泄的情况那应该如何防止这里面没有说明第三那咨询委员到底是不是一个他的性质角色是不是一个必须接受公众监督的对象那以至于他的名单跟他的咨询意见必须透明公开还是他仅是止于提供这些意见"},{"start":2498.957,"end":2528.497,"text":"那當然我還要再強調資訊委員不是說提供意見我們有責任因為未來的評分結果如果受到司法調查這些留存在案的都可能是未來檢調去判斷是否有受到不當利益影響操控的一個具體證據但是司法調查跟完全不保留的公開公社會來取悅這是不太一樣的因為司法權是事後權它是根據後面有弊案發生的發動的偵查跟"},{"start":2529.777,"end":2555.17,"text":"但是如果沒有這樣的情況就一旅公開會不會就剛好落入了剛剛說的反而讓有心人士透過不當的對價去介入去影響到諮詢委員的意見這一點我們是覺得應該要以釐清那如果能夠釐清我們當然整個立場上民進黨是支持政府施政各項決策英語透明公開接受社會的監督這是一個大原則"},{"start":2555.99,"end":2561.274,"text":"但是在配套的做法上怎麼樣達到我們要的目的這一點恐怕要慎著以上因為這個修正案是本席提出的所以我剛剛覺得嘉賓委員說得非常好所以我做一點法案的說明事實上"},{"start":2575.902,"end":2594.841,"text":"基本上他不是對外公開啦是針對這個頻道他的那個聲色的一些單位他們就申請了他還去申請他其實某部分就是有點武器隊的原則啦這第一個就是說當這些頻道他們"},{"start":2596.653,"end":2625.496,"text":"包括深色 評鑑 換照這些相關的一些諮詢會議那相關的內容他們發現他們並不知道到底是在什麼原因就是說因為它是最後NCC審查的前提他是看這些意見那NCC審查的東西出來是個結果所以這個結果過程當中他發現這個過程我剛剛裡面有講對他們而言他們認為有一些我直接講吧有些什麼帶風向或什麼一些狀況出來那又不需要"},{"start":2626.817,"end":2643.683,"text":"不讓他知道說到底發生什麼事情所以基本上他不是一個公開的他是針對申請人尤其是頻道的聲色人他們來去希望能夠調的這個諮詢會議的內容讓他們做一個參考這樣更知道誰諮詢委員的一個審查的邏輯"},{"start":2647.364,"end":2661.711,"text":"那另外當然如果今天我們從公開透明角度我確實也考慮過那直接就把它公開但我的習慣就是說我們至少先讓申請人能夠知道整個過程那如果說這個方式大家覺得不錯的話"},{"start":2662.651,"end":2678.584,"text":"那也可以考慮對全國公開因為我個人是認為你相關的諮詢委員其實要對自己的一些意見應該有信心可以讓社會大眾來去看但是也確實有剛剛NCC講的顧慮的話那我們就稍微限縮一點範圍"},{"start":2680.405,"end":2701.646,"text":"那第二就是說一般來講我們講所謂的秘密投票的部分的話第一個就是說時尚諮詢委員也不是投票了他只是提供諮詢所以他沒有投票的秘密性的這件事情那更何況秘密投票有時候他是對人投票的秘密投票的適用的比較多那他是對事的諮詢其實應該不算是秘密投票的一個"},{"start":2702.307,"end":2721.777,"text":"一個行為的太陽那我就以上針對嘉賓兄我稍微補充一下這個法律的修法的一個出發點那我們再請我們的那個國城委員我想我們嘉賓委員剛剛已經講得很詳細公開透明是大家所要追求的目標"},{"start":2722.748,"end":2740.196,"text":"其實因為我跟沛翔長期都在交通委員會交通委員會很多委員確確實實對於這些知行委員他的定位問題確確實實是有所要求的"},{"start":2742.077,"end":2765.176,"text":"那這個部分我特別要點出來給我們NCC的單位NCC確實過去給人家的感覺完完全全一不公開二不透明所以第一個這些執行委員雖然不是向NCC委員經由立法院公開去檢驗"},{"start":2766.917,"end":2782.152,"text":"那這些知行委員也就是39位到51位當中基本上完完全全NCC主委就可以聘任那這個聘任他表面上也不經過"},{"start":2784.283,"end":2806.971,"text":"行政機關聘任之後他的權力到底有多大第一個行政機關他聘任這51個當中當然各行各業都有他的專家但是開會只要有19個人要做這些任何議案的決定包括關台包括換照包括開華"},{"start":2808.231,"end":2818.15,"text":"其實真正的後面贏無者是這些19個委員就會決定這個案子到底"},{"start":2819.395,"end":2838.152,"text":"是否成案到底是否如何傾向所以它的重要性表面上看起來這是不公開的是一個知行的單位但是事實上它是掌握這件案子到底成不成立或者"},{"start":2840.634,"end":2856.353,"text":"開罰或者換照非常重要的也就是NCC裡面的執行委員他的 講快一點他的執行機關看起來是執行機關事實上他是掌握絕對有權利的人"},{"start":2857.054,"end":2875.725,"text":"所以我是 我們本黨是這樣啦看到今天主席提出這個案我認為公開透明既然三黨都有這種共識行政機關有什麼不能見不得人的事呢所以公開透明 那我明智本來我林國成在立法院本來就是執行啊"},{"start":2876.505,"end":2893.182,"text":"那這個林沛翔這個某某人這個林業群執行那我公開有什麼關係呢因為他認為他提供他的專業還有提供他的看法給行政機關來做決定那我不曉得"},{"start":2894.203,"end":2912.1,"text":"為什麼會議記錄不能公開為什麼他的名字不能公開其實這裡面問題修改這個20條的這個部分主要在這個部分把它公開透明有什麼關係最後他的意見建議還是要進入"},{"start":2914.742,"end":2940.087,"text":"進入委員會委員他們來做決定性的決定所以我是覺得這些東西公開透明是沒有問題的我是覺得這樣會議公開的會議記錄有什麼見不得人本來開會大家就有講這種話專家的意見留下記錄給大家看有什麼關係"},{"start":2941.263,"end":2957.464,"text":"那我的名字去開會我公開出來我有什麼關係那當然啦因為陳代主委啊還有我們嘉賓這個委員啊他所提的這個顧慮也就是個人安危的問題"},{"start":2958.735,"end":2977.742,"text":"那我說實在可以討論但是公開透明是有必要所以不要小看39個到51個執行委員不重要因為他把它公開透明之後這些委員就會依照他的專業提供給行政單位去"},{"start":2978.522,"end":2993.584,"text":"去做參佐所以我只要他講的是他的專業那有什麼不能公開有什麼不能讓人家知道他的名字所以我們本黨一向就是緩黑箱"},{"start":2994.685,"end":3019.914,"text":"公開 求公開還有透明化這是一個任何一個單位未來所要做的所以我是本黨支持這個執行委員的名單30天以後你們都已經做成裁定了做成決定了那公開以後再來把它公開出來就是讓人家公開透明讓人家檢驗"},{"start":3020.914,"end":3040.323,"text":"所以我認為這是合情合理的一個修法所以我認為本黨是支持20條去把這個明定化讓這些知情委員提供他的這個著見以及提供他的這種專業的看法所以我認為應該要公開 應該要透明"},{"start":3048.752,"end":3072.843,"text":"好謝謝主席我是支持林國成委員的看法原因很簡單去年我們六代交通委員會那去年也有關NCC的案件我們也實質上去審閱了案件但是我們對於說我們審閱到的資料非常的失望因為我們想要知道的內容全部不澎湃等於是說一個無字天書在我們的眼前"},{"start":3073.303,"end":3100.752,"text":"那对于说我们不只是说以公开透明也好还是想知道整个案件的来龙去脉也好其实没有任何的帮助所以这次的修法与其是说要不只是说要公开透明更重要是我们要知道说这些委员他们当初的态度这些委员是谁当初的态度为什么会做出这样的决定提出了什么样的建言他是以什么样的立场他是有什么样的专业背景他就用他专业背景之后提出什么样的话"},{"start":3101.632,"end":3120.865,"text":"這些都是對一個我們現在應該知道的事情上面很重要的佐證我們其實很簡單我們想知道真相如果說連一個國會議員都無法知道真相的時候我認為這些事情我們就應該拿出來好好的在這個制度上面做出一定程度的修改所以我認同林國生委員的想法"},{"start":3123.482,"end":3130.579,"text":"我們補充介紹那個那個林月琴委員跟林楚瑩委員那我們一輪發言好不好那先請那個"},{"start":3137.91,"end":3152.219,"text":"不好意思 因為為什麼本來沒有要把你今天來聽可是我想先澄清一下因為剛剛林國成委員講的39到51 那個是內容 諮詢"},{"start":3159.134,"end":3175.731,"text":"會邀了非常多的所以我覺得釐清因為20條講的是深色換照所以兩個你剛剛提的這個是不一樣所以我想釐清你20條要修的是這個你想要修其他條嗎否則的話那個是內容跟好"},{"start":3182.219,"end":3203.357,"text":"那我覺得也是不是也請我們的NCC解釋一下你們的聲色換照在諮詢的時候的整個討論樣態上最後形成的事實上是大家最後的一個內容的意見就你們整個的流程是讓大家了解還有一個委員去參與"},{"start":3205.319,"end":3226.45,"text":"我相信大家都本著希望能夠針對他們看到的甚至看到的一個現象甚至上一個電視台大概五六百頁的資料裡面要去看坦白講要花非常多的力氣要邀到委員"},{"start":3227.31,"end":3236.76,"text":"如果領2500的出席費坦白講不見得會願意有人可是如果要這樣的話那你們可能會面對到的會是什麼問題可不可以一併做說明好 我們現在請那個林楚瑩委員"},{"start":3243.908,"end":3256.446,"text":"謝謝主席 林楚瑩第一次發言我想大家都知道我是來自於媒體其實媒體現在是慘業很慘的慘 大家可能會認為說我們今天在討論這個所謂的"},{"start":3259.29,"end":3277.435,"text":"衛星廣播電視法大家的焦點都會集中在49到56 57這個新聞台但事實上這個衛星產業它所代表的這個產業裡面的這些所謂的工作者它不是只有新聞台它還有其他的台就是包括了大家看到的像"},{"start":3279.176,"end":3287.902,"text":"電影台然後這個娛樂台體育台然後甚至於還有其他的這些播映的包括別的國家的頻道來到台灣喔那麼這些其實他們都在這個所謂的衛星同業公會裡面"},{"start":3294.827,"end":3309.12,"text":"那麼現在其實我想要代表的其實除了我是立法委員之外我也想要為產業發聲那麼我想要念一下就是中華民國衛星廣播電視公會針對這一次的修法的一個意見書喔因為我認為朝野協商會有錄影嘛那麼我也希望能夠把他們的聲音發表出來也讓在場的委員以及還有我們NCC來了解一下目前他們對修法的看法喔"},{"start":3319.81,"end":3346.885,"text":"那麼呢就是有關於這個整本市的修法那麼他們的意見如下第一是修法對於實質來說整體來講並不顯著因為一般的狀況就是頻道評鑑換照申涉案件在進入諮詢委員會審議的階段的時候透過歷次補鑑甚至於到陳述是已經可以了解委員意見便加以回覆所以本案在修法上面實質是不顯著的"},{"start":3347.145,"end":3362.975,"text":"第二 爭議案件當事方是可以進行調閱權的那麼是否屬於產生爭議之頻道的評鑑換照申涉案件受處分業者可提起行政訴訟等救濟手段並行使調閱權即可調閱相關的紀錄"},{"start":3365.737,"end":3393.812,"text":"第三 評鑑生患作業涉及頻道經營表現與產業建前等多元衡量建請在修法之前能夠先對產業的衝擊來進行評估那麼其實我最在乎的就是第三點我知道這個所謂唸起來有點拗口我想用白話文的方式再來說明一下就是我剛剛就已經講了產業真的是很慘他們現在的廣告已經被網路媒體"},{"start":3394.873,"end":3417.407,"text":"整個大量的80%都已經挪過去了那為什麼我會講到有關於產業的部分是在不論是爭議案件 評鑑 換照的過程當中他們所提供的資料是商業機密所以這也是為什麼當時在訂定20條的時候認為要去識別化來提供我就"},{"start":3418.227,"end":3445.555,"text":"舉一個例子大家可能現在左眼的都是新聞台啦電視的爭議等等爭議新聞或等等但是事實上包括像一些國外的頻道他來到台灣或者是其他非新聞台體育台娛樂台他們在經營的時候有很多的營運包括股東包括製作成本包括我就舉一個例子他請一個主持人到底花多少錢合不合理"},{"start":3446.555,"end":3460.58,"text":"那這個都涉及到包括你說今天吳宗憲不是這個我們國民黨委員吳宗憲是眾議天王吳宗憲他在某一個頻道裡面他開這個節目他領多少錢"},{"start":3462.4,"end":3488.96,"text":"那到A的節目當中他領多少錢其實這個都是市社商業機密但是在審照換照的時候他會經過NCC委員的評鑑因為我們也知道有的時候娛樂新聞或是娛樂綜藝節目講話會稍微誇張一點或者是他會有一些所謂產品的置入我提醒大家這個可能NCC就要給罰單了來了罰單有爭議案件的時候大家就會繳交資料"},{"start":3489.842,"end":3493.358,"text":"那這些資料的過程當中現在大家如果"},{"start":3494.4,"end":3523.29,"text":"用所謂的新聞台去看的時候都會覺得說新聞有時候亂報啦確實是應該NCC要罰啦或是怎麼樣但是回歸到其他有更多產業跟商業的頻道的時候我個人認為如果把這些資訊公開這等同於就是把一家公司的機密讓大家免費看用力看如果今天大家要攻擊這個電視台或者是要挖角的時候這會造成一些產業上面真的會慘上加慘"},{"start":3524.21,"end":3549.711,"text":"所以這是為什麼我特別趕過來來做這樣的一個發言是我知道委員有委員的立場委員們都希望能夠做到監督但是請不要忘了雖然這是一個特許行業所以有NCC來做把關它是一個特許行業但是它是不是要這樣的被全裸的扒開我請大家站在大家回去看Cable台坦白說啦我現在家裡我都很少看Cable台了"},{"start":3550.572,"end":3578.576,"text":"我自己是媒體人出來我可能都看網路比較方便那麼他除了49到55之外其實還有那100多台他們的樣態也受到廣播衛星電視法的管轄所以我們在思考這個部分的時候要跳開現在大家所focus在的某一些台性可能要放大來看這個產業那這個是我今天發言的重點"},{"start":3586.976,"end":3613.907,"text":"這個機關代表先請NCC因為有些要請教你們回應我還是先再補充強調一件事情是提供給申請人就是那些頻道啦所以換言之它是對頻道的保障它不是對外公開是提供給申請人所以屬於因為我跟你的立場沒有不一致所以你剛剛講了很多東西頻道好可憐起碼提供給頻道它被執照被停了它被處分了"},{"start":3614.927,"end":3638.753,"text":"結果呢他不知道上游的原因是什麼就NCC一個處分給他不公平嘛我剛才講武器隊的原則嘛所以他是對頻道的保障那起碼讓這個資訊能夠讓申請人知道上面不是講是對公眾公司還是針對申請人那申請人如果不需要這頻道覺得無所謂我覺得那也可以你就不要申請就好啦所以這個是以上補充請NCC來回答"},{"start":3640.794,"end":3665.49,"text":"謝謝主席我這邊先主委剛才中委員這邊有提到說諮詢委員的性質其實他就是參考而已上委員會議的時候他的具體的形式大概呈現說他同意他聲色或同意他同意多少人不同多少人大概是這種格式但是諮詢委員會議的資料會附在當中附件來看這是第一點補充"},{"start":3667.352,"end":3687.887,"text":"另外刚刚主席提到只对业者的申请来提供因为过去有类似的情况说业者他去打行政诉讼之后他看到的资料他对外的论述有时候会跟事实有点落差这个也要考量说这个东西是否得益"},{"start":3688.647,"end":3713.116,"text":"另外林國昇委員這邊提到39、51那個是節目廣告資訊委員會議他處理是另外一軌但是林委員講說是舉例的部分確實他的資訊也是提供給NC委員會參考而已因為常常或者在伯仲之間比方說有6票"},{"start":3714.176,"end":3739.951,"text":"6票反對 5票同意的時候或怎麼樣其實最終決定權還是在NC委員會議另外我這邊也要補充如果純粹公開像我一開始跟主席也跟各位委員報告過的已經有個案發生說被騷擾然後也有一些委員他面臨到一些業界的壓力如果這個通過的話那會變成一種現象有可能發生一種現象"},{"start":3741.051,"end":3761.473,"text":"委員的發言大概大家都當好人或說什麼大概都是歐帕或者之類的或選擇不發言這個就失去了諮詢會議的目的另外剛剛林國聖委員又提到說他的決議性質其實就是剛剛我跟各位報告他其實沒有裁定權"},{"start":3763.015,"end":3790.026,"text":"最終的決定還是在委員會議另外林佩祥委員有提到說這個情況差不多就是重大個案不管是申涉或者換照的時候NCC會根據NCC組織法10條提降會組織聽證會這邊也是會有對外公開的程序這邊大概是會有這種處理的情況"},{"start":3790.966,"end":3818.74,"text":"联约新闻提到的部分最后的形成就是跟各位报告的是至于质询委员会的资料会继续会详细的附在NCE委员会审议时候的参考资料NCE委员审议的时候的参考主要是看他们最后质询委员会的总结意见来处理总结意见里头其实有点类似是说我们去看奥运体操比赛那种outlier或怎么样其实都会"},{"start":3820.22,"end":3844.726,"text":"不會被納入都取得多數的或共識絕的部分來處理NCE委員會主要參考是那一部分但是也會看個別委員的意見就對了剛剛林楚妍委員講到非常貼切就是說個別委員有時候確實會提到某家公司他的財務狀況或怎麼樣有些公司如果是他要上市或怎麼樣如果對外"},{"start":3845.526,"end":3872.76,"text":"對外接入的情況有兩種一種是主席講說業者申請我才給你問題是我們無法拘束業者他拿到資料之後他會不會又往外再流出去這種情況下會影響公司的營業就是營業秘密這一塊所以我們認為是應該要持保留態度以上補充其他機關有沒有補充意見如果沒有我看今天我們的會議沒共識了好不好"},{"start":3877.081,"end":3883.666,"text":"我再度提醒你當初委員會多數委員提出這個問題的時候只有我們NCC什麼都不給"},{"start":3897.625,"end":3913.464,"text":"另外一個就是公共工程委員會他的委員 他的會議記錄他當場主委就答應這沒有什麼秘密可言但是他在招委員的時候他們就要寫得很清楚"},{"start":3914.085,"end":3929.322,"text":"也就是你要當我的委員這個部分監督單位要我名單的時候你同意給那你才當委員這個就把問題沒有是修法的問題那今天所有他是第一個提案人是"},{"start":3930.423,"end":3956.49,"text":"陳情人也就是那個利害關係人他才可以申請一個有沒有必要我們去連我們調也調不到那利害關係人他總是可以調吧所以他其實修這個法的目的是這樣其他的部分委員會該做的權利知行委員該做的權利都不影響他只是在保障利害關係人的權利而已"},{"start":3957.35,"end":3972.811,"text":"所以主委 這個我要特別提見為什麼人家公共工程委員會到最後就可以用行政的那個決定但是你們硬的什麼都不能公開所以主委我告訴你"},{"start":3973.972,"end":3992.105,"text":"該公開公開透明沒有什麼了不起是案子決定以後不可能再開會要你們調資料是決定以後他只是吸資內容是什麼這個有什麼公開透明是有必要的我是建議這個法是要修的請宗嘉賓委員"},{"start":3997.554,"end":4025.376,"text":"作為本市參與非零性的委員還是講一下來 我大概分享一下我大概可以理解提案委員跟贊同委員的想法就是怕有弊端這我完全認同那其實揭弊這個事情在弊端的調查司法機關絕對有完整的權力去調閱所有相關的卷宗我想如果真的是法院檢調機關來要求看知情委員的會議內容包括名單這個一定是完全提供的"},{"start":4025.916,"end":4054.62,"text":"那我請大家想一下因為我在2014年之前我是擔任副縣長在屏東縣政府那屏東縣是少數有線電視有設費率委員會的那身為副縣長我是當然的主任委員但是我們跟這個很像我看這個法條很像喔9到11名然後呢主管機關2名頻道商屬性或公民團體3到4名學者專家3到4名重要的他這裡還多了一個我們過去在費率委員會沒有的"},{"start":4055.08,"end":4083.83,"text":"他有一个同业工会代表一名这个说明了什么事情因为费率是攸关每个业者而且我们在地方的有限电视费率审议的时候是相对的是这个没有让他参与因为这个是费率委员会是知识体大但是因为这个咨询委员你看有同业工会的代表参与一人你说委员名单是秘密吗不是每个委员的发言的取向是秘密吗不是"},{"start":4085.09,"end":4099.539,"text":"所以它其實上它的公開介入的程度已經因為有同業工會的代表一名參與它事實上已經提供了一個業者相關業者他要知道這個諮詢委員的內容意見的看法一個很好的管道"},{"start":4100.299,"end":4119.925,"text":"那反倒是我要強調一下我們在費率委員會我遇到什麼情況呢因為我們的費率委員也是一樣任期兩年然後可以連任一次然後就不能再連任了因為為什麼要這樣做我們在地方政府很擔心費率委員會被掌握我們的費率委員會如果說"},{"start":4121.141,"end":4135.934,"text":"对于费率的审议是攸关业者赤裸裸的他的利害关系所以我们对他的名单是不对外公开的因为这涉及到受费率委员会审议费率的企业界他的利润的影响"},{"start":4136.494,"end":4159.308,"text":"那因此我也很清楚我必須作為會議的對外公開的召集委員我就承擔了所有業者的質疑他們就是利用我們辦公的時間來登記要陳情那直接就只有我副縣長接見但是他不可能去接觸到其他的費率審議委員為什麼因為這涉及到業者的重大利益當然這些委員的名單不能對外公開委員還要限制連任我們是"},{"start":4160.689,"end":4187.668,"text":"半半交替一次換一半剩下一半的第一次是兩年第二次他就熟了又換了半批的另外一批一半的是那個新人我們用這個方式確保費率委員會的委員的審議是超然於業界利益操控之外的那因此我們看到這個資訊委員會呢他現在會出現什麼情況剛剛楚英委員講那個很重要的情況我在擔任那個費率委員會的主任委員的時候我得到一個很重要的資訊就是業者的財報"},{"start":4189.198,"end":4198.395,"text":"从业者的财报我会读到说他每一个有线电视的频道他的这个系统商他跟各家频道的进货价格"},{"start":4199.281,"end":4219.89,"text":"一個有限電視頻道是有上百個頻道商他付給每個頻道商多少的代理商的多少價格我們都看得到那個最對業者來講這反而是怎樣他反而不希望這些內容是屬於商業機密而且我們費率審議委員會我們一次是審議家他連他送來的財報我們都要求這個財報內容"},{"start":4221.511,"end":4251.091,"text":"我們會旅程委員看完之後要收回因為那涉及到被審議者他的商業秘密好了那現在我們來看這個諮詢委員這個諮詢委員他雖然沒有去處理費率他處理的除了聲色跟換照之外有一個很重要是業者會相互競爭的叫做評鑑今天等於是諮詢委員他拿到的資料呢有各家不同業者的打分數那你想想看這些打分數的資料每個委員有他的看法那這個打分數的資料如果流出去了"},{"start":4252.192,"end":4272.787,"text":"贫贱优势的他要打击贫贱劣势的频道或这些业者他就可以拿来做文章了虽然我们说提供给业者那不是刚好你在贫贱的时候那些被贫贱为优等生的他就把这个贫贱内容的资讯他就对外揭露让其他贫贱比较他之后的受到影响"},{"start":4273.487,"end":4299.933,"text":"我是覺得我們林淑英委員的議席化反而驚醒了讓我們有一個意識我們本來是從防備防止這些諮詢委員有對外的勾連怕他們有些不當行為不當被介入但是現在我發現反而是現在有限的有限業者他們將資料交給這些諮詢委員共同來提供意見給NC委員的時候他們交出來的都是各家公司的營業秘密"},{"start":4301.654,"end":4318.149,"text":"這個營業秘密他們可能也不太想讓其他業者知道那更何況這個諮詢委員會他們說的評鑑對外本來是公開一個結果可是如果你把這個結果相貴的形成評鑑的這些諮詢的內容這些內容都可以被各業者自由取用的話"},{"start":4319.181,"end":4344.405,"text":"哇 那還得了啊那個就是產生了一個業者彼此的什麼的一個殺伐所以我是覺得我們委員的起心動念都非常好但是可能我自己有限的參與類似的經驗我們要從實務操作上去理解這樣的結果可能導致的後面的連收反應可能跟我們原來所預期的不太一樣我們本來希望諮詢委員要對他的意見負責都要公開但是無意中卻讓這個諮詢委員參與的會議的資料"},{"start":4347.486,"end":4376.253,"text":"在不恰当的在不同的业者当中流传而且有些业者还可以把它刻意的对外的就揭露公开那因为一旦你这个会议就你也写嘛第一个咨询委员的名单跟咨询会议应该30日内提供你3元第一个咨询委员的名单根本没有意义他一任两年业界代表在其中这两年哪些咨询委员这名单有什么秘密可言的没有秘密可言啊再来他们的会议记录会议记录里面会写很多啊包括什么包括贫贱的大家的意见那这个贫贱的意见"},{"start":4377.693,"end":4402.065,"text":"評鑑不好的業者希望什麼外界不用太知道我這次評鑑的不好我有機會改進我要是考試不及格我很怕老師叫我回去給家長簽名那個考卷我整個覺得開玩笑意思說這個評鑑又涉及到不同的業者在這一次的一個討論當中他會排名他會有一些那我剛開玩笑說我要是考不及格的考卷回去要家長簽名我很擔心"},{"start":4402.765,"end":4425.716,"text":"那這種情況之下我們要注意到NCC應該就算是這個修法如提案人提案委員所說的通過我覺得這個大家點出來的這些流弊可能要想到預防譬如說避免讓業者的這些商業機密外流避免讓業者之間不當的去利用他們這個貧賤的這個諮詢意見去對外頭造成他們不公平的競爭"},{"start":4427.177,"end":4454.819,"text":"彼此去打擊對方的商譽或影響到對方的營運等等的我是覺得這個不得不防我不是說完全反對這個條文但是我們這個條文我們這樣定有自己的目標方向可是做下去之後可能會跑出意想不到的一個一些副作用出來這個不得不慎國民黨團看今天應該沒有達成共識那就我們的協商結論保留送院會處理"},{"start":4456.019,"end":4456.859,"text":"那我們就散會吧 謝謝"},{"start":4494.426,"end":4500.711,"text":"平衡表啦 平衡表會影響還好我以前有一點點經驗我知道這頁子的影響比較大坦白說不是隊委員 這頁子的影響大"},{"start":4519.368,"end":4533.573,"text":"委員做不做是一件事 業者嚇得要死了以前我在整那個有限電視系統來說那個財報我不知道要收回來他不覺得這個財報他不想給人家看不 應該可能你們的業務大概是我是誰"},{"start":4543.996,"end":4552.864,"text":"所以我們要讓委員看到因為這案子委員的目的他希望是讓我們公開讓委員認定我們人家危險事件一定要處理"},{"start":4560.278,"end":4560.558,"text":"不曉得"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}