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首先介紹專家 學者和出席委員和政府機關的代表張教授鳳甲大學謝謝"},{"start":1982.955,"end":2007.265,"text":"我們仁勇法律事務所劉律師國立政治大學江教授助理教授主任駐在服務商業同業工會全聯社的張理事"},{"start":2011.323,"end":2027.751,"text":"我們財產法人 崔媽媽基金會女執行長第八個 第六 台灣青年民主協會陳常務監事"},{"start":2035.58,"end":2055.587,"text":"中華民國主任住宅房東服務總會陳理事長奧爾斯都市改革組織秘書長彭秘書長我們官員麥正立委"},{"start":2065.919,"end":2090.899,"text":"跟牛喜婷立委我們主管單位有內政部董事董政務次長地政司林司長國土署吳署長行政院消防消費者保護處陳副處長"},{"start":2094.69,"end":2116.448,"text":"法務部謝參議謝參事司法院楊法官財政部複稅署吳專門委員行政院主計總署曹總專門委員"},{"start":2124.128,"end":2141.252,"text":"今天我們工廠的程序先請我們補回簡單的報告後我們跟請專家合作發言依主席簽到的順序委員會發言的時間配分成本院委員會發言請主席待定期"},{"start":2150.37,"end":2161.336,"text":"在兩位專家合作發言之後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言的時間為5分鐘最後我們要由我們的機關代表來回答"},{"start":2171.294,"end":2182.701,"text":"跟說明發言事情有定位的歧視我們到時間到的發言最早1分鐘前會安寧1聲發言時間結束後會安寧2聲現在我們請補回報告請內政部董事長報告"},{"start":2198.07,"end":2204.855,"text":"主席各位在場的委員先生女士大家好以及各位學界的代表"},{"start":2216.667,"end":2246.187,"text":"非常感謝各位委員以及各位學者專家對於本部住宅租賃業務的關心與支持也在此表達最大的感謝那麼今天貴委會召開如何健全住宅租賃市場及租賃雙方權益保障之修法公聽會本部應邀列席深感榮幸那麼以下將就今日公聽會所列的相關的討論提綱僅就本部的意見依序說明如下敬請各位委員及學者專家指教"},{"start":2247.027,"end":2272.203,"text":"首先针对住宅法第47条增订主管机关定期公布租赁市场不同物件形态屋龄之价格资讯对租金市场的影响本部表达相关的建议如下首先在为了推动租屋市场资讯透明化的状况之下本部在去识别化各自保护以及促进资金透明的原则之下"},{"start":2272.703,"end":2296.772,"text":"我們已經透過租金補貼的有效租約統計分析自去年8月開始陸陸續續公布三次全國各行政區實際租金統計資料那麼在今年7月最新公布的統計資料除了不同的租屋型態的租金總價四分位數之外也新增了不同租屋型態以及屋齡的租金統計資料"},{"start":2298.172,"end":2321.26,"text":"让租屋屋主可以作为租屋的依据条件租屋的条件作为了解实际租金价格分布的情形也可以作为判断合理租屋价格的参考同时改善租金资讯不对称的问题那么在未来本部将会持续每年定期公布两次统计资料逐步建构公开化透明之租金市场以落实租市场资讯透明化的目标"},{"start":2322.366,"end":2347.791,"text":"那么第二题有关于主管机关一住宅法以借由新办社会住宅提供租金补贴等多元方式提供民众租屋协助那如何进一步保障住宅租赁双方的权益那首先呢本部表示在目前我国租屋人数正众多那么弱势与青年租屋主普遍面临三大挑战第一个整体的租金负担沉重"},{"start":2348.591,"end":2371.41,"text":"第二取得不易以及租住品質與穩定性的不足所以住宅法在歷經106年110年以及112年的三次修法已經針對上述的困境逐步改善脆弱族群的基本居住權益那麼在執行面上本部也建構多層次的租屋支持系統在經濟上我們透過300億中央擴大租金補貼專案計畫來減輕租屋的負擔"},{"start":2374.913,"end":2402.674,"text":"那么在市场上呢我们也持续兴办我们的社会住宅之外我们也推动社宅包租贷款计划透过社宅包租贷款计划奖励辅导以及补助依照住宅法所设立之租屋服务事业成租民间住宅后再转租或者是媒合成租双方提供相关的管理服务并且规定至少40%以上的出租率给予经济或社会弱势者"},{"start":2403.314,"end":2431.053,"text":"以兼顾社会住宅的供应量以及社会的公平这样的制度有助于降低房东的管理负担同时也透过专业化的管理提升住宅的品质以及居住的稳定性整体而言本部希望透过补贴透过制度化的租屋服务以及租屋房源的供给逐步建构多元层次的一个租屋支持架构系统那么落实我们住宅法的立法精神"},{"start":2432.179,"end":2452.654,"text":"那麼第三在有關促進租屋市場朝向長期租賃關係發展協助租屋族穩定安居是否修法保障租賃住宅最短期租期同時規範續租租金漲幅對目前租屋市場可能帶來什麼樣的影響那本部做以下的說明"},{"start":2453.815,"end":2481.024,"text":"為了促進租屋市場的健全發展那麼本部在近年來制定及修正租賃市場租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例以下簡稱租賃條例以及住宅法等相關的規範那麼建構租屋市場管制法制並且陸續推動租金補貼社會住宅包租代管以及青年婚育租屋協助方案等多元租屋協助政策希望能夠透過這樣子的一個政策能夠長期穩定他的租賃關係去推動"},{"start":2483.205,"end":2502.611,"text":"能夠有效的協助我們的相關的政策達到更大的效益那麼考量目前的租屋市場多以一年期的短期租約為主所以為了保障租屋族的穩定安居避免在續租時房客遭到房東以不當的漲租或者是不合理的續租條件迫使其搬遷"},{"start":2503.491,"end":2522.28,"text":"或放棄合法租屋權利等等的形式的發生所以本部規劃朝向保障三年租期以及限制續租租金漲幅的方向呢來推動我們租賃條例的修法希望能夠透過這樣的方式呢能夠穩定租屋主他的生活的安居那"},{"start":2523.26,"end":2549.374,"text":"有關於社會輿論有部分的社會輿論以及我們的民間團體提供所可能降低房東出租的意願那減少市場的供應或者是影響租金水準等等相關的建議或者是見解那本部也是持續跟各方在溝通也收集各方的意見我們會審慎研議相關的配套措施以兼顧房東的財產權益以及租客的居住保障"},{"start":2550.427,"end":2577.879,"text":"那麼針對有關於如何強化房客租屋合法權益的保障避免受到不良房東的侵害那本部目前希望能夠推動在現行租賃定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項裡面我們有明定房東不得於契約中約定限制房客之合法權益那當然還是有部分的房東以契約以外的行為那迫使房客放棄申請租金補貼或是遷入戶籍"},{"start":2579.58,"end":2607.406,"text":"或是申報租金費用等等應有之權利那麼為了要嚇止這樣子指類不當的行為那麼本部規劃在修法的時候我們要明定房東不得以任何形式來禁止房客申請租金補貼 簽入戶籍或是申報租金費用等合法權益違反者其約定無效之外我們並將訂定罰則規定以確保房客租房之權益避免遭受不當之侵害"},{"start":2608.266,"end":2625.88,"text":"那对于不良房客恶意租屋的行为我们又要如何兼顾房东的正当权益保障那么在不良房客的租屋行为里面呢我们发现有多种的模式所以我们根据这样的相关的不同的形态本部规划修法增订以下的配套措施"},{"start":2626.4,"end":2653.038,"text":"包括增订不良房客下车条款也就是说我们为了防止恶意租屋骑行的发生如果有房客屡屡发生恶意欠缴房租或是从事吸毒或其他非法的活动甚至有老龄妨碍安宁秩序等等的情形房东得依法提前终止租约不受三年租期的保障限制同时我们也希望能够强化公正强制执行制度"},{"start":2657.281,"end":2673.898,"text":"以符合法定終止租約的這個案的條件但是他卻拒絕搬遷的這樣的情形我們要修法來明定經過公正之租約可以進一公正法申請法院強制執行以縮短訴訟的時程同時也減輕房東訴訟的負擔"},{"start":2676.46,"end":2700.908,"text":"所以重上所述本部会积极收集社会各界的意见那么在保障租屋稳定兼顾租赁双方的权益以及健全租赁市场的原则之下我们精进我们相关的法治的配套相关的法治以及配套的措施希望能够达到房客安心住房东安心租的目标以上的说明敬请各位委员及学者专家给我们指教谢谢"},{"start":2704.668,"end":2719.657,"text":"謝謝我們感謝董事的說明在這裡我們接下去請專家的學者看見我們這裡第一位張教授宏佳大學"},{"start":2734.99,"end":2764.078,"text":"主席各位委員專家學者還有關心這個議題的在現場的每一位大家好大家午安我是馮雅大學土木工程學系的張志源教授那從事社會住宅的這個議題產學投入也超過了10年那目前我自己也是包租代管的愛心房東所以其實今天也有一些切身的經驗可以來做分享那很榮幸有這個機會來到立法院藉由這一次的公聽會來發表跟分享一下自己在"},{"start":2764.761,"end":2792.132,"text":"健全这个租赁市场以及保障房东房客双方权益的修法的公听会见解那其实有五个议题那我们从第一个议题来看的话其实针对公布租赁市场不同物件形态跟这个屋龄价格资讯这些对市场的租金有没有影响这件事其实租金的这个公开透明让大家可以租的安心我觉得是一件值得去支持的事情"},{"start":2792.85,"end":2821.529,"text":"其实我们以前在买房子当还没有实价登录的时候其实我们经常在说根本不晓得价钱是多少都在玩真心话大考验的这样的游戏其实很不舒服的所以不透明的争议其实很多你看我们的消费里面到夜市去如果那个价格不标或者是说讲得不够清楚要么就买到很贵的水果要么就买到很贵的卤味所以让整个你看这个大家的信心就会去崩盘所以如果买房也都透明了"},{"start":2822.54,"end":2850.864,"text":"为什么租屋不能透明所以其实租赁的这个实价登录的这种讯息的揭露跟更详细的揭露这个我是非常支持的那大家都清楚我们现在在买车很简单那台车是多少钱那个上下range就是不大那我现在买房它又比较不容易了现在租房的判断又更不容易了所以其实在这种市场如果透明我觉得民众自然就会去选择可负担的成交价格"},{"start":2851.257,"end":2881.06,"text":"因為高的價格跟低的價格都有他自己的消費段所以其實你不用刻意的去擔心那民眾也不是傻瓜啦因為其實只要有客觀的參考標準跟依據自然他們就會去找到可負擔的房源那資訊如果越完整其實租金市場的哄抬就越不容易所以其實我自己也是參加包租貸款的愛心房東像我就覺得交給包租貸款其實我比較不用費心那再來我比較在意的是"},{"start":2881.61,"end":2905.207,"text":"续约率就是不要我一直在找房客其实我的租金是中断的如果它是稳定的这样一直租下去的话其实我的总收入才是比较多的总收入所以其实房东如果有千百种奇怪的想法要涨房租终归还是要到市场能不能接受所以资讯的透明那我觉得市场自己就会去判断所以其实我建议政府还是要"},{"start":2905.745,"end":2933.359,"text":"定期甚至更密集的去公布不同地區房型無零條件的相關的房價的實價登錄的訊息那當然沒有100分的方案如果租金市場短期內會有影響我認為是輕微跟短暫的所以這些相關推動的配套細節因為房價的實價登錄已經有很多經驗了租金這個部分我覺得也可以參考來優化所以這個議題上我覺得是這樣的一個表達那另外其實在"},{"start":2934.878,"end":2963.6,"text":"第二個議題我們主管機關依照這個住宅法新辦社會住宅提供租金補貼這些方案怎麼進一步的保障租賃雙方權益其實我們在支持百萬家庭租屋政府其實設了三支箭第一支箭就是興建社會住宅我們現在看到全國都在蓋那也很多都已經在進駐使用第二個就是租金補貼第三個就是比較像我們今天談好的議題是包住貸款包住貸款的部分那其實社會住宅已經供不應求了"},{"start":2964.102,"end":2989.703,"text":"所以其實大家都很清楚民眾很需要這個方向還是對的然後呢我們現在擴大租補已經超過87萬戶了申請戶數超過100萬戶所以政府其實也已經加惠很多這種支持很多租屋家庭那現在的包租貸款的契約當然已經超過有效契約超過10萬戶了那這整個慢慢的從法規跟很多的配套制度也開始在做法尊化推動的我覺得是還蠻好的"},{"start":2990.922,"end":3017.921,"text":"但是还是有一些租赁的争议问题很多,比如说租金、押金、修缮责任、契约条款。我自己其实我也很害怕遇到租霸或是恶房客,可恶的那个恶,恶房客。所以其实我认为找包租贷款来帮忙,其实是比较省事有保障。但是在这个经验里面我也发现,这个定型化的契约跟契约公正这两件事,对我们这种房东其实是很重要的。"},{"start":3018.365,"end":3043.91,"text":"所以其實我每一次我也都會去做這個契約公正那它就會過濾掉一些比較奇奇怪怪的問題那所以其實強化落實這個住宅租賃定型化契約應記載跟不得記載事項以及契約公正這件事情我覺得是相當相當的一個重要另外一個是租屋歧視的問題有很多人其實是租不到房子的不管是社會住宅還是說在我們一般的傳統市場"},{"start":3044.864,"end":3061.173,"text":"所以這個被歧視的這種人比如說獨居老人高齡長者小孩多的家庭外籍人士養寵物的租客這些慢慢這些被歧視的人未來怎麼去稍微保護他們所以這個部分其實也是值得探討的那另外就是說"},{"start":3063.588,"end":3092.601,"text":"長租三年跟限制租金漲幅這件事是第三個議題這個部分限制長租跟租金漲幅最直接我的感覺就是房東的反射動作就是先漲租金再說其實比如說我也是包租代管的參與房東我的長租的租金大概是市場的五折我租給人家然後短租的代管的租金因為有兩間一間包租一間代管短租大概在八折長租的投報率大概在一趴"},{"start":3093.069,"end":3117.782,"text":"比定存還差然後普遍市場大概是2%到3%國外大概是5%到10%那所以呢最近我也聽到這種要三年然後還要現漲房租我都已經租那麼便宜了還要再限制喔其實我也在想那我該不該也要漲房租啊我現在是壓抑自己的理性說就不要再漲房租啦就應該這樣去支持這些弱勢就好了可是我也很害怕這個法一下去"},{"start":3118.775,"end":3146.91,"text":"我不先漲我以後就我根本會越離越遠我會越虧越大所以其實自由市場其實不要去過度干預有喜歡他租的比較合理的租的比較低的他也可以很安心的去像我這樣子去把它租掉所以其實市場越透明越好那越不要限制越好那比如說我們說如果說用很多的政府統計數據然後就說我去做調整各位想一想我們經常在電視看到"},{"start":3148.132,"end":3177.397,"text":"所得不管叫4萬6萬很多人都說我根本沒有那個平均的4萬6萬比如說物價指數根本就不是很高可是大家都覺得物價已經漲很高了8分鐘嗎還有1分鐘好所以其實如果說真的要要這個試辦退萬步言如果如果如果真的要辦的話我建議小規模的試辦然後呢選區域就好了然後兩三年後看成效再說不要一次就大規模的辦我覺得"},{"start":3177.847,"end":3206.682,"text":"可能民眾還沒有為盟其利先深受其害第四跟第五個問題其實是相同的問題就是房東跟房客怎麼互相保障的問題兩個可能都是受害者我歸納了兩個落實五個建議第一個落實租賃住宅市場發展跟管理條例的法遵事項的稽查跟罰則第二個落實定型化契約跟契約公正這個部分很重要那五個推動呢第一個"},{"start":3207.594,"end":3216.307,"text":"建議推動租金時下登入更透明的機制第二個建議研擬給愛心房東更有感的長租鼓勵機制第三個"},{"start":3217.205,"end":3246.278,"text":"第三個是建議嚴禮受害房客緊急的安置機制房客不是房東受害房客緊急安置機制第四個是建議嚴禮受歧視租屋對象的界定那第五個最後就是二房東二房客的警示名單跟處置機制這個我覺得需要不要講黑名單啦不要講黑名單但是要掌握要有一些配套不要讓大家一直踩地雷"},{"start":3246.874,"end":3273.556,"text":"那以上的一些建議提供大家來參考感謝大家感謝張教授劉律師學者專家發言主席好主席各位長官這位前輩先進大家好今天很榮幸來這邊發言那我是劉其福律師"},{"start":3274.275,"end":3301.759,"text":"我最主要是在春花花基金會大概當了這個好幾年的義務服務律師所以對於租賃的法律有一些小小的了解那今天的五項裡面我大概就是只有針對第四跟第五啦前三項不是我的專門我就說明四跟五然後呢我會用因為我們租賃專法租賃住宅管理市場發展條例大概從100年7年6月7號成立公佈事情到現在大概將近八年的時間那我會用法院的判決角度來去"},{"start":3303.422,"end":3331.539,"text":"看看說我們的這個租賃的糾紛大概要去怎麼去處理看法院怎麼去看的這個是我們全方位基金會其實每一年都會做租賃的這些統計你可以看到聯邦滿目什麼都有人際關係都會有所以這個租賃的糾紛要處理真的是千瘡百孔所以我們就看看說那我們法院的判決大概會有什麼樣的解釋跟說明因為我們如果用租賃住宅管理市場的發展條例當關鍵字去搜尋法務部的這個判決裡面"},{"start":3333.141,"end":3353.681,"text":"從107年開始到今年的11月2號為止總共有400則的判決有牽涉到租賃專法當然有一半都是無錢戰友要去主張相當租賃不當得利真正有關的大概200則左右所以我會從這200則裡面去判斷跟分析說我們租賃條例有哪些可以再精進調整的方向"},{"start":3354.861,"end":3379.989,"text":"那其中第一個就是我個人覺得說我們的租賃法專法的體系有點稍微混亂因為我們早期我們的租賃專法一開始是有分成消費關係跟非消費關係有因約定跟因記載等等的那我們112年修完之後就變成了全面的就是推定是具有消費關係使用消保法那這樣感覺起來好像是有保護消費者可是問題是這個適用上就會有一些這個"},{"start":3381.94,"end":3410.918,"text":"不太好判斷的地方雖然我們法院的判決都已經在修法完之後都有去確定說即便是自然人那你去公居住使用就是視為消費關係那可是還是會有一些小小的問題像社會住宅社會住宅不適用租賃專法我就覺得很奇怪為什麼不適用難道政府做莊的這個當房東的就不適用租賃最主要是在第四條裡面有講到是由政府或其專責法人管理的部分是不適用"},{"start":3412.534,"end":3432.26,"text":"這個不是用租用專法的但是法院判決裡面比較少看到這一塊可能因為我們現在這個政府有很多招標出去給包租業者去做社會住宅包租貸款的這個會不會有適用這個可能我們未來在修法的時候要再考慮看看因為我們目前政府的政策就是"},{"start":3433.021,"end":3453.895,"text":"會用包租貸款去這個取代興建社會住宅所以那這個雖然有適用印記載跟不得記載是這樣但是其他的租賃專法有沒有辦法去適用這個也要再請斟酌一下那在現行的租賃專法裡面有哪些是其實是對房東比較不利的就是押金能不能抵租金這件事情"},{"start":3454.697,"end":3482.556,"text":"押金能不能抵租金其實最重要的就是說房客欠租金要欠到幾個月才能夠去這個中止訂相當期限吹告中止租約其實大家都認為說民法不是規定說就是欠租兩個月就可以嗎可是不是啊有些租屋張朗他就跑去找其告法院的時候他說不好意思我們有個土地法100條土地法100條是民法的特別法裡面講到說房客積欠租金要扣掉擔保金之後還打兩個月租金的時候"},{"start":3483.061,"end":3497.957,"text":"才可以去訂上期限最高宗旨所以變成2加2所以這個也是多數法院判決的境界像我們這裡可以看最高法院的這個判例啊等等的事實上都是目前在蘇聯法成立之前都是說如果有這個"},{"start":3498.789,"end":3523.048,"text":"房客有主張土地法100條的時候都會採行2加2的這個做法那我們實行完之後雖然我們的第三條第13項講到說什麼租賃專法的押金只擔保損害賠償行為跟處理遺留物責任看起來已經不擔保租金的起伏可是我們法院是這樣子採的嗎沒有請你看一下我們法院的多數的判決裡面"},{"start":3524.599,"end":3550.691,"text":"他都會認為說像這個理由一他說土地法呢是租賃專法的特別法明明租賃專法是比較新建怎麼會變土地法還是特別法他就說土地法要優先保護弱勢成租者所以還是可以抵還是2加2另外一個理由是這個可能這個他說押租金是擔保租金跟損害平常責任這可能還沒有去正確適用到我們新修正後的租賃專法"},{"start":3552.089,"end":3573.476,"text":"有少數見解這個我個人是比較贊同像高雄檢疫庭這個判決他就說租賃專法是在這個土地法之後而且是專門針對公居住使用的租賃住宅所以應該優先土地法可是問題是這樣子的判決在我們法院裡面還是少數這個是我們比較遺憾的所以我們認為說如果真的要定的話就要定什麼"},{"start":3574.136,"end":3598.219,"text":"定的像這樣子在第6條直接講說租金不受土地法97條上限的規定就把它明確寫清楚說清楚講明白讓我們的法院可以有一個明確的這個判決的基礎所以我們會希望說如果有要修正的話可以把租賃專法土地法跟消防法的適用關係明示他的優先順序還有沒有土地法的適用請也請一併說明那另外呢"},{"start":3600.085,"end":3622.354,"text":"這個我們還會有一個有一個比較有趣的叫做這個租賃專法第12條他這個條文裡面其實呢在立法理由裡面他是講說我們要為了讓在房客已經搬離的情況讓房東快速的拿回房子因為你知道我們這個打官司啊這個曠日廢時你看到要經過起訴啦叫裁判費一審二審還要去申請強制執行而且特別是什麼"},{"start":3623.135,"end":3642.352,"text":"現在法院 你去看官司 換他給你扣裁判費不是跟以前一樣 用公告訊息給你扣 不是喔現在都是什麼 實際上在路上 看你多少就扣多少兩千萬要出 要扣十八萬八千你說我出頭價用多少 我就要 都拿不出水了我就要扣十八萬八千 都扣喔 都扣 換他那邊扔咧這樣覺得 沒話說另外說 你想說在處刊的一件事 辦公室要你衝刊"},{"start":3650.466,"end":3674.291,"text":"他媽說有財政讓你強制執行是十八萬八千我看是困難 像弱豹子打狗所以說法院我們這個十二條當初就是要讓房東呢可以快速的拿回房子可以免去什麼訴訟費用的勞費啦然後時間的浪費可是問題是這個十二條訂得很好可是大家不敢用為什麼不敢用呢因為呢"},{"start":3675.936,"end":3692.77,"text":"你用了之後會不會有侵入住居罪會不會有強制罪會不會有竊盜罪的問題大家會怕會錯啦因為這是新的法律所以犯罪的破罪說實在也不太多我們內政部一百多百年有一個函式跟你說這是一些確認數量的程序喔 抱歉 這麼快喔"},{"start":3695.032,"end":3715.315,"text":"但是法院的判決就直接講說他就是只有限縮在房客未繼續居住的情況下才可以適用這個是法院的判決只有兩者而已所以就內政部提出來的方向我個人是蠻值得贊同因為很多的民意外面報章都說是房東對抗房客我覺得不是"},{"start":3715.765,"end":3731.953,"text":"我覺得應該是好房東對到壞壞房客好房客對壞壞房東像我們可以看到內政部最近有做什麼有做這個明年開始租金補貼只限合法建物我覺得很好淘汰一些不好的建物另外還有什麼他跟法律輔助基金會有也有這個做"},{"start":3732.533,"end":3749.066,"text":"弱勢豬民眾的這個法律輔助我覺得都是很不錯的措施最後我就講一個就是講說豬爸下車條款因為我們內政部有提一個方向說我要把期限拉到三年可是問題是三年裡面你的宿舍是辦公室要來充空"},{"start":3749.746,"end":3759.174,"text":"因為我們加速公路有工程 工程是什麼?租約到期後才能強制執行喔你選擇這個環境就是說 我要堅堅堅堅堅到三年以後或是說我要打官司 打官司要開期 要開時間啊不如我就等到三年 這樣對初途來講是一個不公平的現象啦喔所以說我剛出罷下車條款 我們在公正法第十三條那稍微專編一下 因為公正法現在就是說因為我們執行法院案件很多 都要書面 要程序審查"},{"start":3776.208,"end":3802.449,"text":"若是說我們把一些的糾紛都攬進去執行法院說實在很難處理所以我們可以考慮把一些可以書面審查的比方說欠兩個月的租金這個我們把它呢拉進去因為這個繳租金就是要匯款嘛匯款就匯款證明我們是不是可以透過公證人員來做公認證的文件的問題的這個行為呢然後把它送到執行法院讓我們的這個租霸可以有這個"},{"start":3803.873,"end":3822.846,"text":"受到這個豬爸下車條款的限制那另外我們也可以透過鼓勵有公正的房東可以用豬爸下車條款讓大家來公正讓大家讓我們的這個租賃的契約更透明讓我們房東房客都更有保障謝謝謝謝感謝劉律師現在請我們麥正委員OK"},{"start":3839.468,"end":3844.468,"text":"主席各位專家各位先進各位親愛的家人大家好"},{"start":3846.226,"end":3874.025,"text":"今天非常感谢大家来到立法院一起为台湾的租屋制度改革贡献宝贵的意见长期以来我们的租屋市场一直存在三大问题第一 资讯不透明房租 行情 要靠要有的用拆的 所以黑箱太多第二 法律保障不足"},{"start":3874.685,"end":3891.556,"text":"押金不退 臨時漲房租突然就被趕走 租屋主就無力的反抗第三 糾紛處理太慢不管是房客還是房東都求助無門"},{"start":3892.637,"end":3896.619,"text":"對於青年社會新鮮人基層勞工新住民家庭等的來說買不起房很辛苦但是已經是現實了但是大家最心痛的剛才我們的教授有說就是因為新住民他們也沒辦法去租連租屋都沒辦法安心"},{"start":3920.77,"end":3926.537,"text":"這不只是個人的困境就是台灣居住正義真正的斷層所以我們認為這次修法最關鍵的目的就是讓人家家的安心要做"},{"start":3937.908,"end":3962.727,"text":"放心這樣子那個八個字但是呢政府必須提出跟務實制度的改善第一讓租屋資訊透明化市場要有憑有據房東房科才能在公平的基礎上談就是互相怎麼去租"},{"start":3963.82,"end":3980.274,"text":"不要再靠硬去也不要再靠說看人的臉色第二讓租約關係更穩定要避免不合理的就是平房就是漲房租也要防止房客惡意"},{"start":3986.641,"end":4001.246,"text":"簽房租讓房東有保障房客能安心居住雙方都願意長期合作第三健全快速且公正的糾紛處理機制押金不退或者設備壞了誰來修租約爭議不能再拖幾個月後耗掉雙方的"},{"start":4015.944,"end":4038.437,"text":"時間與金錢一個公平有效的處理流程就是最實際對雙方的保障我們一直相信租屋市場不能靠口號更不能靠補貼撐著真正能解決問題是制度是透明是公平立法院不會"},{"start":4039.966,"end":4057.732,"text":"某一個人某一方來犧牲而是打造一個穩定合理可預期租賃環境當房東願意出租房客租得安心政府清楚掌握市場"},{"start":4058.832,"end":4082.001,"text":"才讓台灣主宰市場才會真正的健康有保障最後再次感謝所有專家學者與民間團體來參與因為有大家的聲音我們不分黨派改革才真正有力量"},{"start":4082.597,"end":4110.619,"text":"希望通過今天的討論讓大家住得安心跟住得孤單所以更實務有效的方法不要再只是理想或紙上談兵而讓我們能夠安居樂業過得安穩安心有家的感覺才能過更好的生活謝謝大家 歡迎大家感謝"},{"start":4112.278,"end":4117.799,"text":"謝謝我們感謝麥正委員我們家姜助理教授主席各位委員然後各位先進各位長官大家好我是政大地政系姜穎慧那今天的主題裡面我可能會比較針對就是租金的部分發表一下我的看法那大家都知道其實在教育健保這些相對來講住宅其實住宅是在最"},{"start":4141.904,"end":4168.873,"text":"就是市场化的一个对民众来讲的话那住宅又是大家的这个安身立命的一个基础那这几年其实在住宅法的这个慢慢慢慢这个住宅法通过之后整个的建立其实租赁的这些方向改善我相信对大家来讲对民众来讲应该都是好的所以回到第一题里面提到说住宅法第47条那目前呢有定期的针对这个租赁市场的不同物件去公布这样子的一个"},{"start":4169.335,"end":4198.744,"text":"租金的中位数的价格资讯我相信对民众来讲这是件好事它可以改善过去就是长期来讲其实租赁的这个资讯不太健全的这样的一个情况不过在现行的目前的公布方式我相信对民众来讲还是不够的过去我们会提到说有10灯你可以查10灯但是租金的资料其实10灯很少嘛那另外就是如果你查10灯也会回到说always都是拿我家旁边然后还拿最贵的来看"},{"start":4199.204,"end":4225.535,"text":"那現在有中位數公佈之後會產生另外一個狀況就是中位數公佈的大家會覺得說這跟我的情況又不太貼近因為它是一個行政區所以在這個部分我其實會建議就是不管對民眾來講又或者是對於政策接下來要逐步改進來講它都需要做更精細的分析所謂精細的分析其實是我們可以了解到如果這裡有就業需求"},{"start":4226.135,"end":4235.876,"text":"如果有就學的需求它就是一個租賃市場的熱區那在租賃市場的熱區的情況下你單純用中位數來公佈大家可能覺得"},{"start":4237.099,"end":4266.043,"text":"这个都不是我家的都不是我家的这个租金所以我觉得以目前的情况我们有定期公布可以让民众感受到政府就是现在很在意民众的需求所以他要持续公布这件事情不是有实价登录之后放上去你们自己看所以我觉得这件事情就是已经展现出我们对于这件事情的决心但是如果只停在这边可能大家就会觉得说好吧你就是做给我看但是我看不懂"},{"start":4266.423,"end":4292.292,"text":"我還是沒有辦法看所以我覺得在這部分的情況現在這個議題提到就是有公佈定期公佈對租金市場的影響我相信是一個正面一個好的效應告訴大家那但是呢再往下其實還要再往下更精細那另外其實如果扣到第三個問題提到說未來想要修法那這個修法其實是要保障租賃住宅的最短租期以及同時規範續約租金的漲幅"},{"start":4294.673,"end":4318.92,"text":"那這件事情就必須再更往下我剛剛提到的就是如果你現在只用一個中位數又或者是現在已經有提出是不是就要按照這個主計總署公佈的這個租金指數當做一個指標我相信這個其實都不夠清楚那為什麼還是不清楚其實就回到我們剛剛講的如果這附近未來有交通建設的改善那我相信這裡面的供給會變增加"},{"start":4319.5,"end":4344.128,"text":"你可能现在会觉得说有交通附近交通建设改善大家都往那边租但问题是有交通建设改善的地方其实供给也会往那边产生意思是未来可能会在那边盖更多房子其实会有新房东出现新房东出现按照目前的房地合一税还有囤房税实施下去其实房东他有这个需求"},{"start":4344.628,"end":4371.177,"text":"他会把房子放出来所以在这种情况下其实供给需求又改变了我相信这样子这些数据其实都要一起搭配着来看但是这个数据其实就变成是可能还要再花一点时间因为按照租赁专法其实之前大概是112年9月之后实价登录里面的栏位其实目前是比较贴近民众的就是他现在公布出来的这个租金的"},{"start":4371.597,"end":4386.025,"text":"这个资讯里面同时也公布了有不同的住宅形态包括套房和雅房我相信这些其实因为都是最近这几年开始改善的一下子可能要要求大家做出什么租金指数"},{"start":4386.865,"end":4403.114,"text":"可能也不太精確所以我覺得說這些事情我們要持續盯著就是主管機關要繼續改善但是是不是馬上改馬上明天就說來來來我們宣布明天我們就來做這件事情我相信會有一些可能副作用反而會產生"},{"start":4404.415,"end":4424.826,"text":"所以这也是回应到这个第三题提到目前我们其实有一些声浪就说未来接下来要修法保障这个最短周期我们可以看到这舆论上面其实两方就开始在对立了有人说好有人说不好那参考韩国的经验还有一些过去政府的经验就是过去我们也实施过这个"},{"start":4425.746,"end":4454.843,"text":"就是房屋税调税这件事情我们可以看到地方政府有些地方政府就是在一换市长的时候那个税基就马上掉下来了所以我们可以知道说一个政策好的政策其实是需要仔细的规划逐步的实施而不是今天很多人说赞成我们就来说好我们做这件事情而不顾它其实是会有副作用刚才张教授也有提到了其实从这个实际上"},{"start":4455.263,"end":4470.749,"text":"房東的經驗裡面一聽到你說你要規範我以後續約漲租金那我明天就漲我就躲避你的規範這不是張教授個人的經驗這是所有的文獻國外的經驗大家都給你"},{"start":4471.129,"end":4498.45,"text":"都跟你说那你说他是坏心人吗没有啊我今天长完之后我以后很多年我就不长书了我就又变爱心房东了我就是维持低价你怎么可以说我其实是坏人呢我觉得这件事情其实不是坏人那也会有其实我们早期为了要鼓励大家释出这个房子然后当房东所以我们会用爱心房东但现在慢慢这个名词我觉得也改变了因为"},{"start":4499.951,"end":4516.141,"text":"另外一步其實是要往下想說其實我們不能叫大家來比愛心其實我們應該要建立一個制度當房東租金高貨低有時候其實是跟租屋品質有關這件事情目前我們討論裡面就是健全住宅租賃市場這個議題我覺得比較少談的一點就是所謂的租屋品質這件事情"},{"start":4524.466,"end":4537.031,"text":"我們沒有像韓國這麼慘就是有很多人租房子是租在那個半地下室大家都看過那部電影我相信台灣真的沒有這麼糟但我們也沒有一個健全的制度規範說你當房東你是不是現在只有電費有規範了那其他其實"},{"start":4542.973,"end":4557.278,"text":"你如果是一個都沒有365天都見不得光的房間那它適合當作一個租屋的地方嗎譬如說我們接下來應該是頂加不能拿租金補貼但是我們也沒有說頂加"},{"start":4558.925,"end":4586.59,"text":"不能出租又或者是頂加在某些條件下其實才能出租那我的想法其實是在健全這個租賃市場的這一塊裡面我們關心租金另外一塊應該要關心租屋品質那租屋品質這件事情也會扣合到後面其實提到的這些租賃雙方之間的契約保障這些租賃雙方契約保障也不是只有規範的那個押金返還的二房東二房客其實還會有那個很"},{"start":4587.33,"end":4615.203,"text":"遭得租屋的那個空間那個空間也應該要透過法令制度再往下規範還有其實在租屋市場裡面這個Range很大有便宜的租金也有那個每個月可能是數十萬以上的那個租金那這種部分我們其實是不限制的未來可能都不需要仔細的規範 以上謝謝謝謝我們感謝江助理教授我們家張理事"},{"start":4622.59,"end":4647.64,"text":"大家好 我是中華民國駐定住宅服務商業同業工會全國聯合會的理事同時也是包租代管的業者 那我們呢我想今天能夠開這樣子的一個修法的會議我想首先要給我們立法院還有我們內政部一個很大的讚因為我覺得這是一個整個租屋市場往前走的一步非常重要的一步那這個時間點呢也契合的非常好因為昨天我們全聯會"},{"start":4648.584,"end":4656.119,"text":"在張榮發基金會辦了一個我們這一次一樣的我們的研討會那我們總共有200個位置各位知道嗎在48小時之內緊急關閉報名因為非常踴躍"},{"start":4661.283,"end":4687.292,"text":"全聯會所有的理事不得出席要把位置讓出來昨天司長還有科長還有專門委員都有來都知道所以我想要先探討一個事情就是我們租賃住宅的市場在哪裡七年前立法的時候我們全名叫做租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例在立法出來的時候台灣是沒有市場的因為都在桌子下面你要管什麼現在剛剛說法院所引用的這個"},{"start":4689.125,"end":4709.416,"text":"這個判例或者是引用的實價登錄這些實價登錄的資料是誰做出來的是我們業者做出來的是目前全國總共有2371家包租代管的業者登記上去的市場在這裡所以根據上面的實價登錄來做的所以你們說市場在這邊總共有多少 12萬"},{"start":4710.799,"end":4726.548,"text":"那根據內政部給的資料有100萬的租屋族其實我希望今天在立法院這邊我們只要講一件事情就好了如果台灣所有的房子都有人住那麼所有的人都有房子住現在的囤房已經來到了91萬戶"},{"start":4729.005,"end":4752.437,"text":"很可能在兩個月今年是有史以來發史照最多的時候所以很可能在明年一月我們請委員看一下可能我們囤房會超過一百五萬戶囤在那邊誰給的資料台電給的每年的六月十二月都會公佈你在六十度以下的代表什麼這個房子是好的有水有電但是你為什麼沒有六十度因為你連燈都沒有開你囤在那邊"},{"start":4754.015,"end":4777.167,"text":"囤在那裡各位我們的囤房數跟所有已經超過加戶數了所以今天目的是要在這邊好我們來講租金的漲幅我跟大家說全台北市目前我們在台北市全台北市的房東都是愛心房東為什麼沒有一個租金符合投資報酬率現在台北市的租金就拿最貴來說他投資報酬是負數的"},{"start":4779.465,"end":4807.259,"text":"都是負數的 好租金怎麼出來的今天買賣房子是從房價出來的房子越貴租金越高這個道理大家都知道你沒有限制房子買賣的價格的上限你過來限制租金的上限沒有道理他怎麼來的是高居房子來的好第二個房租怎麼來的現在剛剛說了實價登錄我告訴大家這個實價登錄都是我們業者做出來的所以你在管理這個市場嗎不對"},{"start":4809.358,"end":4834.883,"text":"內政部今天做的租金補貼310租金補貼我們是業者我也是社會住宅保護貸款的業者我自己公司就管理了三四千戶310租金補貼非常有用為什麼因為租客現在安定了搬家的次數變少了這是OK的但是租金怎麼來的今天你們有內政部有這麼多幾十萬戶的三十萬戶到五十萬戶的資料你為什麼不放到私家登錄區呢"},{"start":4837.349,"end":4861.136,"text":"然後現在的房東是怎麼去訂他的租金他的房租的是上591上樂屋網他在上面看到的價錢是什麼各位要知道你現在在591上面看到的價錢是沒有租出去的價格你租出去就不會在網路上了所以房東一直在參考租不出去的價格來制定他的房子的租金"},{"start":4862.296,"end":4879.023,"text":"所有的房東都認為他的房子是全宇宙最好的不是全台灣喔也不是全地球喔是全宇宙最好的所以他在591看到一個一萬一千塊租不出去的房子他會把他租金定在一萬兩千塊這就是租金上漲的的原因好"},{"start":4879.847,"end":4896.247,"text":"另外一個跟住宅一樣的來我們買賣市場的實價登錄做得非常的踏實因為他是管合約的是代書必須要登的所以現在所有的房仲是怎麼去定房子的價格是把實價登錄拿去給買方賣方看來你的房子現在就值這個錢"},{"start":4897.554,"end":4917.891,"text":"但是我們住宅法47條講得很清楚我們必須要怎麼樣政府必須要收集分析公佈住宅資訊你手上已經有幾十萬戶你為什麼不把它放到實價登錄去呢那我們業者是不是可以引用現在的實價登錄來告訴房東說你的房租現在應該要多少錢才是真的因為實價登錄是租出去的價格而不是只能拿591這租不出去的價格來跟房東議價對我們業者而言"},{"start":4926.01,"end":4942.536,"text":"事實上房租高跟低對我們一點關係都沒有因為我們的利潤是很單薄的我們只有10%的管理費我們希望的是什麼我們希望的是能夠長期的能夠去租所以今天內政部提出三年一約我想請問你問過租客嗎租客有需要到三年嗎你這個數據哪裡來的以我們現在做的社會住宅包租代管好了現在已經做了接近十萬戶有效合約"},{"start":4954.707,"end":4980.86,"text":"到底租超過三年的有多少趴來以我們自己家來說絕對不超過20%所以你三年怎麼來的租客有需要三年嗎好我們的地形化契約上面有得提前中止跟不得提前中止得提前中止提早一個月講沒有就不用扣押金對不對不用扣一個月如果你沒有提早講扣一個月的違約金好今天內政部你實行三年"},{"start":4982.059,"end":4989.544,"text":"他勾的叫做不得提前中止租約租了一年之後 租客要搬走 房東會說什麼請你把未來兩年的租金給我因為不得提前中止嘛所以這樣子是為什麼 你幫租客想其實你挖了一個很大的洞給租客跳他跳進去了 誰救他所有做租金上限的 訂這個的"},{"start":5006.994,"end":5032.122,"text":"通通都報在今年大家都一起修法所有幫租金加一個蓋子的全部創下有史以來最高的租金荷蘭做社會住宅150多年2025年今年是他有史以來租金漲幅最大的一年為什麼因為他在去年2024年的時候把他的租金加了一個蓋子他不相信市場反而他要市場怎麼樣相信政府這是不可能的我們是自由經濟的"},{"start":5033.379,"end":5061.499,"text":"所以應該要做什麼事情我認為應該是要把公正法第13條要把它做好剛剛劉綺夫有說得很好房租就是一兩萬塊錢的事情你怎麼去打官司所以現在大家往公正去公正最便宜三千塊四千塊就可以處理了但是13條告訴我們什麼要租約滿了你才能夠進行強制執行各位租房子是要先付錢才能住的是這樣的概念但是他欠租兩個月之後我們還要等他住滿"},{"start":5062.881,"end":5087.179,"text":"所以現在導致什麼兩押一租只出三個月他付三個月的租金他可以免費住九個月我們才能夠強制執行把他趕走所以你要怎麼橫貧對不對所有的房東都希望有租客能夠長期我們這邊續約的基本上不會再加價錢各位知道好房東難得好房客更難得啊我們在做報租代管我們管的是誰我們管的是房客"},{"start":5088.038,"end":5106.423,"text":"我們看到好房客的時候我們真的覺得 哇 很好台灣最美麗的風景是人光復鄉我們看得出來我們現在管的所有的房客99%都是好的房客你不用為了1%去加了這麼多的限制你讓這個市場沒有辦法透明沒有辦法發展才是我們最大的悲哀謝謝"},{"start":5113.373,"end":5124.668,"text":"謝謝 感謝張理事我們請委員 牛希廷發言謝謝主席這"},{"start":5127.099,"end":5145.251,"text":"今天談健全租賃市場跟租賃權益保障的修法公聽會這內政部今年在9月18號拋出租賃專法修法的這樣子的一個方向保障三年租期限制漲幅跟強化權益保障三大方向之後當然就引起了很多的關注甚至很多的爭議"},{"start":5146.175,"end":5162.604,"text":"昨天祝福全聯會也有SHOVA研討會加上今天的公聽會其實無非就是希望在這個制度的重大變革當中找到妥適的改革方向跟步調這我想不管是提高透明度租金市場透明稅制的改革釋出空屋"},{"start":5163.084,"end":5191.743,"text":"或者是租金涨幅跟保障的配套措施的设计我觉得今天大概学者专家很多都会琢磨在这个地方我就在这边就不再多赘述了但各位的这个发言的意见我们都会列为未来修法的一个参考今天我在这边丢出几个观点主要着重在这个其他的配套措施三个方向第一我觉得租赁专法如果要修正或者是相关的法令要修正的时候我们除了要考虑前面几个改革方向之外我们要考虑一下社区大楼成为现在都市的主流形态"},{"start":5192.25,"end":5216.549,"text":"因此社區管委會跟房客的關係我認為這件事情應該要被思考並行訴有效的政策方向租賃專法規範的是房東房客跟租業者三者的關係公寓大廈管理條例規範的是區分所有權人跟社區管委會之間的權利物關係房東在這個公寓大廈裡面他是區分所有權人房客缺乏他的主體性那中間衍生的爭議怎麼辦"},{"start":5218.01,"end":5243.033,"text":"管委會跟房客之間的關係成為租賃專法跟公寓大廈管理條例之中的三不管地帶我覺得這是一個很大的問題我們應該要思考一下曾經有管委會想要修改規約說什麼房客也要付這個保證金啊情人房客除了要付房東押金之外還要另外付給大廈管委會保證金成為另外一種負擔或者是租客有擾鈴的行為可是管委會沒有辦法制約因為這個人並不是區分所有權人"},{"start":5244.454,"end":5259.879,"text":"這個房東置之不理等等常常有這樣一大堆的漏洞租賃服務業者也常常要求啊管委會要在中間協調嘛管委會跟房東之間怎麼把事情給擺定喬好所以管委會跟房客的關係應該要在修法了之後一併考量相關的配套措施解決社區內部的衝突"},{"start":5261.291,"end":5280.505,"text":"第二要建立迅速有效的爭端解決機制房東最害怕遇到欠租遇到到期不辦理這是業界的常態房客最怕遇到苛扣押金或其他各種不合理的要求但只要任何大小租賃紛爭到最後只剩意圖叫法院解決剛剛我想很多學術專家都有提到這個話這個"},{"start":5282.94,"end":5305.041,"text":"進到法院訴訟大家也了解台灣的狀況耗時短則一年多則兩三年你那個爭議的權利金的大小搞不好你打官司的成本都遠遠超過這個細政的金額所以對於租賃雙方來講都是折磨也淪為雙數的局面所以如何透過修法的過程我們來建立訴訟外的紛爭解決機制其實是有其必要的"},{"start":5305.801,"end":5325.947,"text":"譬如說租賃關係、消費關係可以跟消保官申訴啊也可以調處啊也可以到調解委員會去調解可是問題啊目前現行制度的共通性都是你必須要在這個平台達成共識嘛所以我剛剛才在樓上參與黨團協商這個達成共識在當下的社會是一件非常困難的事情啊對不對所以沒有共識到最後你還是要進到訴訟嘛那進到訴訟就回到我們剛剛講了花了很長的時間解決雞毛蒜皮的事情"},{"start":5331.189,"end":5346.857,"text":"住宅租賃的糾紛叫做質輕量多金額很小 數量一堆其實某一種層面是變相司法資源的浪費所以我們是不是能夠思考比照比如說勞資爭議處理法有一個行政裁決的機制租賃市場等等這樣的一個爭議跟爭端"},{"start":5348.618,"end":5376.974,"text":"透過行政裁決的這樣的一個機制來做處理並且賦予一定的強制力讓法院的送援可以有效減少我覺得這也是可以既可以解決租賃雙方的爭議又可以減少司法資源的浪費我覺得這個乾脆要修我們就一併討論第三這剛剛我們張先生也有提到這個有關於公正的問題這也是本席非常關心的契約公正的時候其實有完整的程序公正人應該要了解請求人的爭議及真相並且清楚序名各式各樣的法律效果如果公正的內容"},{"start":5378.695,"end":5385.881,"text":"這個資訊不透明不明瞭不完備的時候都還要主動把話講清楚讓這個公正數據有絕對的公信力也才能夠讓租賃的雙方啊能夠清楚了解契約的內容並且保障租賃雙方的權益也有數據顯示啊經過公正後的租賃契約只有不到百分之二後面還是產生了這個"},{"start":5400.414,"end":5427.843,"text":"注定爭議嘛 注入這個契約糾紛所以我想契約的公正制度在預防紛爭上它也有很重要的角色那當然會衍生一定的公正費用能不能透過政府的政策來予以補貼或者是支持或者是推廣我覺得都可以討論那另外也要解決我想剛剛這個我們沒有套好但是剛剛張理事長也有提到了嘛有一個時間的問題嘛如果期限屆滿不交還你現在才可以走公正這個後續的程序嘛但提前中止租約卻沒辦法"},{"start":5428.783,"end":5455.836,"text":"所以我想在租賃專法修正的同時這個公證法的一些配套措施的一個修正讓公證的這樣的一個機制跟效果可以更穿透力這我想也是相關租賃專法在修正的時候一個重要的配套措施之一我想租賃雙方不應該是敵對關係應該是要合作關係修法除了要考量房東房客跟業者等等的核心角色之外請你顧慮到他們跟周遭利害關係人之間的互動關係我剛剛講了大廈管委會法院等等並且所以這個"},{"start":5456.916,"end":5467.767,"text":"有效的紛爭解決機制是很重要的希望這個在未來修法討論政策的時候可以一併納入討論以促進整體租賃住宅市場的健全發展 以上謝謝"},{"start":5490.447,"end":5506.745,"text":"主席以及各位委員以及在座各位前輩先進那今天就崔媽媽作為一個實務工作者以及長期關心那個租賃住宅的一個角色來跟大家做相關的一個分享好"},{"start":5509.164,"end":5534.921,"text":"那在整個國際的資料就是這個Global Property這個部分的話其實它的評比裡面整個跨國的部分台灣相較於歐陸的國家事實上早期是跟韓國一樣事實上是屬於比較像房東傾斜的這樣的一個制度那當然這個部分有待我們可能長期的改善跟調整"},{"start":5535.501,"end":5564.274,"text":"那大家也都知道就是說可能房客在租屋過程的幾個痛點跟房東的幾個痛點那房客的部分的話不外乎是租金的上漲然後租不到房子現在供需事實上有很大的問題然後他很有感的大家就沒辦法申請租補跟報稅以及糾紛沒辦法有效的處理那房客的部分很務實收不到房租沒有辦法順利拿回房子"},{"start":5564.694,"end":5590.356,"text":"那遇到猪爸的恶意行为怎么处理所以在这样的一个对策的话原来租金补贴是一个协助房客弥补租金上涨的一个工具但是在台湾的话会碰到房东不让你申请租金补贴这块没办法处理那在整个租不到房子的话因为屋源供需不平衡所以这块需要透过更多的"},{"start":5591.496,"end":5609.642,"text":"出租住宅的一個提供來解決那房東不讓你申請租補跟報稅的話這一塊事實上我們更重要的在長期來講是資訊的揭露跟透過稅制的改革來提高這樣的一個可能性跟誘因這樣"},{"start":5611.323,"end":5629.634,"text":"那屋源有些糾紛無法有效處理這一次我們的修法提到這個部分那當然針對三個房東的一個痛點的話那我們試圖用豬爸下車的幾個配套來做一個解決但是實際上可能不一定每個配套都有辦法實際的去執行"},{"start":5631.255,"end":5653.506,"text":"那我们这次的过程我们蛮肯定内政部在租赁市场的改革的一个企图但是必须说以目前的租赁市场的条件不成熟以及相关的配套还不足的情况之下整个修法可能还有精进的一些空间因为其实也如同刚前面几位先进所讲的"},{"start":5653.906,"end":5672.441,"text":"事實上如果你的配套不足的話可能會造成市場閉鎖或是房東就提前把出金提高或是轉嫁等等這樣的一個現象的產生所以單點式的修法的一個提案的話會有還蠻大的一個潛在的副作用的一個風險"},{"start":5677.83,"end":5699.987,"text":"好那就這次那個大綱裡面有幾個部分那我這邊大概就提供一些補充意見的說明第一個就是在住宅法47條對資訊的部分那我們這邊會提醒就是說如果沒有完整的一個配套那目前收集不到收集到了資訊"},{"start":5701.208,"end":5723.844,"text":"還不是一個有用的資訊可以做決策跟做整個市場管理的資訊這部分事實上剛剛江穎惠教授有給我們詳細的一個分析所以我們這邊就不多做贅述那第二個部分那個就是整個主管機關那個雖然已經提供了租補也達到了八十幾萬戶要往"},{"start":5725.245,"end":5754.026,"text":"百萬戶來貿易進但是我們知道就是說目前政府的補貼式的住宅政策其實因為高度的依賴在租屋市場特別是租補跟社會住宅包租貸款所以如果我們沒有解除對房東課稅的一個疑慮的話目前的住宅政策會四倍公辦因為你是壓在租屋市場上面那租屋市場的房東這個player如果不陪你玩的話事實上這個效果"},{"start":5755.547,"end":5771.265,"text":"會沒辦法進行所以除了資訊的公開透明我們對民團對稅的改革租賃稅的相關的改革這部分我們也就是抱以非常大的一個期待跟倡議的一個角度"},{"start":5773.828,"end":5787.107,"text":"至於這次所提的一些部裡所提的一些相關的一個修法的話我們覺得是利益甚佳但是必須說最後一理路事實上有些部分還沒"},{"start":5787.828,"end":5803.127,"text":"接通所以其實政策落地是有他的一個不確定性在這邊其實幾位前一些前輩先進有講除了一些那個就是租金條帳的一個風險跟副作用以外"},{"start":5803.727,"end":5826.38,"text":"然後相對的那個如果一些相對的租霸下車的一個條款除了藉由公證適同租期屆滿以外的話其他的租霸下車的條款也會有他的一個就是真的在尋求法律途徑的一個局限因為你真的碰到一個租霸他就是不下車的話"},{"start":5827.185,"end":5856.153,"text":"你最後還是得透過法院去訴訟的程序去來伸張你的一個正義但是法院訴訟的話就如同剛劉綺霧律師所講的以衍生的相關的一些成本跟那個就是法院的不確定性那個部分是我們目前都沒辦法掌握的這樣所以大概只有目前崔媽媽版當時提出的一個公正 適同 屆滿這個部分是一個操作上比較成熟"},{"start":5856.853,"end":5874.206,"text":"那此外三年的租約條款這邊因為時間的關係我們崔媽媽目前暫時有研擬就目前有研擬一個建議是可能可以供那個就官方以及立法單位來再做一個討論就是我們就是"},{"start":5875.447,"end":5901.942,"text":"基本上基於一個優先就好房客優先承租的一個概念就是他如果違反應記載不得記載的一個事項的話那我們讓他原條件承租那支線一次那這個機制基本上是由房東來發動的所以相對會比較有橫頻的一些空間但時間的關係我們今天不在這邊多做這樣的一個說明跟做這樣的一個討論這樣"},{"start":5903.263,"end":5920.544,"text":"好 最後的部分我還是會回到比較中長期的部分雖然我們這次內政部提的部分針對幾個社會現象提出了相關的一個問題以及看法但是這些的社會現象基本上是就點狀的部分來進行"},{"start":5921.525,"end":5950.647,"text":"但是整體來講因為沒有碰到整個結構跟中長期的部分其實它的效果會有限那我這邊引那個韓國金秀賢教授就是去年上個月28號來台灣的他的一個提醒對台灣的部分那以韓國來講他們走了30年才能慢慢的在租賃改革的部分達到平衡房東跟房客租賃權益的一個制度"},{"start":5951.327,"end":5975.354,"text":"而且他們的過程裡面是先建立透明跟信任再來講求強制跟課稅甚至課稅的部分事實上時間上跟透明是適時的在年份上做一些偷勾的是比較長期才開始講課稅的部分這樣那概念上是把房東當成是合作關係而不是一個對立的一個關係"},{"start":5976.614,"end":6004.323,"text":"所以在這樣的話雖然我們求短期的改革的時效但是不得不我們得用中醫的療法來做整體的思考就是我們還得去碰觸體質的改變特別是租屋市場整體的體質改變那當然不諱言就是租屋資訊的透明以及資訊的揭露以及多元的登錄機制以及與稅的課稅的部分脫鉤"},{"start":6005.743,"end":6021.69,"text":"那來達成就是房東的資訊願意公開透明那當然這個部分我們會對財政部多做苛責希望他積極的扮演更多協助內政部的一個角色那此外當然包括屋苑的供給的增加"},{"start":6022.29,"end":6041.935,"text":"因為目前就是供不應求才會就是說租金賬上去的房客還是得跟否則市場是供需的問題房東要賬你跟不上去還是基本上租金沒有辦法那樣拉高所以最後結束的話金教授他最後一個結語是"},{"start":6043.395,"end":6066.453,"text":"改革不是誰打倒誰是建立一個信任跟秩序透明是最重要的基本起點雖然這個透明雖然有困難度但是這條路還是得走穩定是一個目標當然我們追求改革最重要的最後還是要追求公平但是這個是一個需要時間然後需要完整配套去發展的一個過程以上 謝謝"},{"start":6068.698,"end":6074.5,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝李執行長我們家常務監事喂 有齁好 大家午安就是我是台灣青年民主協會的常務監事陳奕進那我今天就是主要就是針對學生的部分以及青年的部分那分享一些我們協會過去所接觸的個案以及我們"},{"start":6096.376,"end":6099,"text":"實際上所遇到的困境那其實剛剛的幾位先進或者說NGO的團體其實都已經講蠻清楚那我今天會著重的部分其實是在"},{"start":6105.959,"end":6130.631,"text":"青年然後跟學生的部分我們遇到的困境到底是什麼然後我們做多一點闡述那首先第一個其實最重要的其實我們要先強調一點其實就是學生的經濟弱勢與結構性的不平等但很有趣的事情是我們在這個過程當中我們其實不是法定的弱勢就是沒有一個弱勢說是學生可是我們確實是屬於弱勢那因為學生他並不是法定的弱勢所以他是典型的這個結構的困境"},{"start":6131.812,"end":6160.591,"text":"我們離鄉背井我們沒有收入那我們甚至要我們需要一年到四年的中長期的租屋那以我自己為例子的話我是從嘉義到台北來念大學的那如果那以大一來講我住的是八人的宿舍基本上這房型也沒有得選那到了大二之後就是宿舍名額不足你基本上就是被趕出來你就是被趕出來那你被趕出來之後呢你就只能在外面租屋因為你排學校也大概排不到因為學校就是很學校就是生"},{"start":6161.147,"end":6184.707,"text":"升多周少那根本不可能那這個其實這個情況其實不論是在台北不論是在台中不論是在高雄其實各大城市其實都非常的明顯那在這些高房價的城市其實學生的負擔就會更加的沉重那甚至要靠家裡的資源然後跟打工補助然後才可以去繳租那其實學生的問題學生租屋的問題其實長久以來都一直存在但是並沒有被重視也沒有被討論"},{"start":6186.869,"end":6192.151,"text":"那所以我這邊要強調的事情是學生並不是選擇租屋而是他是被迫的要進到這個市場裡面跟大家去競爭這些房子可是他相對來講他的溢價能力就會更低這個我們後面會再講那在都市化的壓力再加上宿舍的供給不足那甚至有人會住在相對危險低品質頂加或者是其他只為了完成學業那這些都是政策過去沒有看到的主體"},{"start":6212.148,"end":6235.036,"text":"那再來就是剛剛前面其實有提到張理事其實有提到類似的狀況其實是因為在修法裡面有一個三年的租期這件事情那這件事情我是覺得也可以再來思考的事情是因為對於學生來講有的時候其實他可能是在交換或者他來一段時間可是學校沒有辦法給他房子的狀況之下他可能就必須也是要進到租屋市場裡面那這個時候就會有一個"},{"start":6236.127,"end":6256.122,"text":"我們可能就會需要一個四到六個月像是我們很多有一些是交換來的人那他可能就會想說我只要四到六個月我不需要住到一年我不需要住到八個月那還有暑假他可能暑假有的時候可能需要到某個地方去實習那這個時候他可能也沒有房子他可能就被迫可能要去一些更昂貴溢價能力更低的像AMBNB我們有遇到很多的狀況是這個樣子然後"},{"start":6258.744,"end":6265.734,"text":"那你彈性解約也有可能就會遇到一些高違約租金的情況那這些其實這些其實就是學生會遇到的困境那再來就是有一個是這一次在有會提到的是這個租金市場租屋市場到底這個租金要怎麼樣"},{"start":6274.947,"end":6288.217,"text":"那租市場的不透明其實也讓學生成為很大的受害者那剛剛前面其實大家都有提到其實大家看到的狀況其實都是會上591這591基本上或者是說很多租屋網站東吳小租再不然就是大家口耳相傳"},{"start":6289.153,"end":6314.239,"text":"這和我相傳就是說這個房子大概是這個價錢那個房子大概是這個價錢然後大家就會有比較然後大家大概知道說那我這個地方大概是哪裡大概是多少以台北市來講士林然後東吳士林或者是中正區那可能價格就不一樣那你可能過個橋又是另外一個價格那我們沒有一個很統一的地方去告訴我們說這個大概在哪裡或者是說這個房子大概可以值多少錢"},{"start":6315.519,"end":6332.466,"text":"這是我們對於很多來到異鄉的時候會遇到的狀況那對於我自己而言我自己是比較幸運是我遇到了非常好的房東這樣子但是並不是大家都會並不是大家都這個樣子那再來還有一件事情是關於性別安全跟租屋的歧視這件事情"},{"start":6334.667,"end":6353.539,"text":"我們也常接到很多案例 包括我們理事長他其實常遇到的困境其實是房東或仲介會有一些騷擾的問題然後會有一些安全的疑慮像是不租給女生或者不租給男生或者是宵禁或者是禁止帶朋友回家然後有些性別的刻板印象這件事情其實在租屋上面也都是應該會被考量的再來還有我們提到剛剛前面講的資訊不足跟"},{"start":6357.601,"end":6375.49,"text":"溢價能力低落這件事情那學生其實不是不努力而是制度上面他們都是一直我們都一直在處於弱勢的狀況那特別是外地生啊弱勢家庭的學生外籍生跨縣市移動的學生這些東西其實這些人其實都是我們我們一直應該要去注意但是其實長久以來一直沒有注意到的"},{"start":6376.01,"end":6379.674,"text":"那過去其實我們就已經有在長期都有希望希望說那是不是社會住宅我們除了我們對於租屋市場的一些狀況之外其實對於社會住宅我們是不是有一些我們可以一起去努力的變的解套方式這樣子"},{"start":6392.426,"end":6411.764,"text":"那其實很多地方其實都只是需要一些簡單的一個可能單人的一個租屋的地方那政府的社會住宅是不是有機會可以有這個小坪數可工人單人的套房這樣子那最後我要講的事情是學生其實不是特權他是就是再強調一次就是他是政策被遺漏的群體"},{"start":6412.659,"end":6431.586,"text":"那這件事情就是在我自己我自己北上來的時候就是特別的有感覺就是我們的過程其實就是一直在這樣子那有的時候其實非常的看運氣就是你遇到好房東那你就什麼都好可是你遇到不好的房東那你就什麼都不好那我們當然也有遇過就是同學是不好的房客"},{"start":6432.648,"end":6454.7,"text":"就是像我自己的姐姐在高雄租屋然後她就常常說隔壁的房客真的是很吵但是房東也沒有辦法解決那這件事情我們到底要怎麼去思考是我們可以在一起努力的這樣那最重要的事情是如何提供學生如何提供青年一個制度性的保障是我覺得是我們眼下或者是對於協會來講我們在這個議題上面最應該會去討論的問題那以上 謝謝"},{"start":6462.11,"end":6466.893,"text":"謝謝 我們感謝張常務監事我們家陳理事長好 主席以及在座的各位的專家學者以及這個與會代表 大家好我是中華民國房東總會的理事長陳柏勳對於今天這個幾個議題本會有提出一些建議首先我們當然很肯定這個內政部這邊"},{"start":6491.417,"end":6496.261,"text":"在中華民國開國以來第一次重視房東的權益真的非常感謝內政部第一次重視到我們的房因為房東有了第二度房制但他們都往往被人家認為是惡房東其實待會兒我會提到其實並不是這樣子首先第一個議題是做我們這個攸關透明的部分"},{"start":6518.649,"end":6524.597,"text":"那現在目前很多的這些我們公布的這些數據資料對於真的要租房子的人真的有幫助嗎"},{"start":6525.509,"end":6552.266,"text":"其实我说实在的听过很多的这些要租房子的这些人其实帮助的并不大为什么因为租房子其实不管是地点还有设备跟等等之类其实是没有办法用这种中位数来去分析反而是误导了这些学生们或者租房子的人觉得说原来是这样但是怎么去都租不到这是一个问题那大家都在讲全面实价登录那实价登录到底成本其实现在目前看来"},{"start":6552.881,"end":6559.705,"text":"大家都決定說個案的實體的實名制的這些實價登錄確確實實能接受真實的租金那為什麼沒有辦法去全面做當然我們想問一些問題當你實價登錄有這些業者在實價登錄的時候沒有登錄的話是會有罰則的對不對但是這些只限定仲介業他們要去實價登錄而房東卻沒有實價登錄這個是一直以來大家都在討論這些問題"},{"start":6578.971,"end":6596.146,"text":"那當然有問題要怎麼去實施 可能要想一下那我個人是提出一些簡介 因為目前實價登錄其實最擔心是房東不願意去登錄甚至有可能登錄完了 登不齊全還被罰那房東覺得這個是饒命 他也不建議不OK"},{"start":6601.983,"end":6627.074,"text":"所以我個人覺得現在有定型化契約了應該鼓勵房東都使用合格的定型化契約然後第二個我們要鼓勵房東來實價登錄所以不要有罰則應該是以鼓勵為優先如果雙方他都不講的話你根本不知道他租房租掉了所以我們要鼓勵那怎麼鼓勵呢既然大家都站在稅制的上面的話其實應該是要他鼓勵他實價登錄以外要給他一點稅優要有誘因我覺得他才會做"},{"start":6630.755,"end":6653.265,"text":"那再來要辨明 要怎麼辨明呢這些房東們可能年紀比較大了沒辦法使用這個網路的方式或者他沒有什麼自然憑證等等之類那應該是要更辨明現在AI的這個狀況這麼的發達應該是我們要提供它你只要使用 鼓勵使用這個合格的契約呢它的欄位其實是固定的"},{"start":6654.162,"end":6658.464,"text":"你要的資訊也是固定的那透過這些什麼透過這些智能化的系統在哪裡呢在地政事務所在這個區公所讓他可以在進達他的合約只要進去掃描以後該有的欄位就進去了"},{"start":6668.154,"end":6689.58,"text":"那當輔導的這些藝工們就要看你這些資訊是不是正確正確他只要確認就好了甚至簽個名就好了不要讓他太多登錄這些很繁瑣的這些東西來在這合約裡面就可以展現出來了我覺得這樣才能有效去講說到底房東持家登錄成本在哪裡所以應該是要先解決不要罰錢"},{"start":6691.543,"end":6704.266,"text":"這個是他才會鼓勵的性質那當然已經規範了房仲業者要去做那房仲是專業的一個人士所以他們當然專業的部分出座率會比較低一點所以我覺得這樣才有辦法讓真正的大家在講的黑市或是透明化的資訊這樣才能更透明而且是每個地段都很清楚"},{"start":6714.963,"end":6742.295,"text":"那至於現有的這些社會財包住貸款的資料當然我們也希望那也可以把它倒進去然後也把它註明說這個是社會住宅事實上是比市價還稍微低一點點那這樣可以讓這個民眾很清楚的了解說到底這個是什麼狀況然後第二個呢我針對這個這個這個有修法的裡面其中一個就是我現行考量這個保障三年租期跟限制許約的"},{"start":6743.45,"end":6771.945,"text":"首先我必須站在房東總會的立場覺得這兩個部分其實過度干預了這個自由市場而且房東辛苦買個房子結果我買房子然後你來定價我買房子你來決定要續約什麼我個人覺得是有點管太多啦這個部分我覺得必須講那再者呢其實有兩個這個政策下面有一體兩面首先第一個是如果房東都把它開的不合理的租金我相信他也租不掉"},{"start":6773.09,"end":6784.375,"text":"住不掉當然他沒有租金收入他損失是更大我相信應該沒有房東會做這樣的事情那第二個呢原先很多好的房客居多的那些房東幾乎不太會賬他價錢反而你現在告訴我說這個政府規定我可以賬2% 3%"},{"start":6789.764,"end":6812.077,"text":"所以他就以前不造价的房东都觉得太好了房东那个政府叫我说要占然后我有条件跟他讲一定要占所以他就占了所以这样的情形是不是已经过度干预了自由的市场而且租房子里面其实很多的设备跟所有的地点其实本来就是应该有区隔的如果你都你租房你都觉得嫌贵其实台湾不是每一个角落都很贵"},{"start":6813.243,"end":6840.647,"text":"台灣不是每個角落都很貴你要住在捷運站旁邊當然便利性但租金就稍高一點你要住在可能下一站可能做公司可能就便宜一點點所以我們往往不要去想說都是這個租金的部分那再來如果強化房客的保障避免受到不防房東的侵害我覺得這有點嚴重說實在的我們常常講我也贊同前面幾位專家都為了一趴再來做這個事情"},{"start":6841.823,"end":6855.153,"text":"到底有多少二房東你們可以具體化一點都沒有具體都一開始打翻所有的房東都是二房東我們的房客都趕不走了我還能我叫他走他就走不太可能啊"},{"start":6856.112,"end":6861.894,"text":"所以我認為我覺得這個議題其實應該收集更多到底有多惡劣的房東我也曾經在記者會上提到沒關係我們把他揪出來我們輔導他不然我們就抵制他對不對但是問題是沒有我們大家在抽象的想法對他把我趕走為什麼要趕走都不知道只知道說我到齊了他要賬我租金他就把我趕走了"},{"start":6879.502,"end":6894.477,"text":"但是有沒有真的去分析這個問題就像我們常講的你知道我們要把房客趕走是多麼困難嗎趕走了以後裡面的垃圾多到你會嚇死人好好的一個房子整個的收入租金還不夠去清理垃圾這個問題大家都沒有想到這個問題我先去提一下"},{"start":6899.977,"end":6924.233,"text":"那最後呢我其實在這次修法裡面我比較著重的是整理下車條款真的需要拜託這個沒有的話其實房東其實都要透過打官司而且這些法官們其實他有自由行政所以這個麻煩一下既然已經提了開國以來才做這個事情我希望一定要把它做下去那再來呢公正制度真的要不然我們像社會上每個都有公正違約了也沒辦法處理我要等他他等我我不知道所以這個不能真的"},{"start":6931.963,"end":6943.972,"text":"這個懇請 這個我們的立委主管跟我們所有的這個政府真的 我覺得這個任何的修法我們都可以討論但是這兩個部分真的真的開國以來第一次真的 拜託一下好不好 謝謝我聽陳理事長這樣說覺得很無奈的感覺來 我們請彭秘書長謝謝喔"},{"start":6965.843,"end":6994.596,"text":"主席還有部長還有各位在場的先進大家好我是AURUS彭洋楷那我就因為剛剛其實非常多先進都講了所以我想說剛好我今天的報告裡面事實上比較換另外一個重點那我首先我的態度很清楚就是說我覺得目前我們把討論的重點都放在內政部 內政部太辛苦了"},{"start":6995.27,"end":7016.789,"text":"然後其實我的第一章就是台灣現在租屋市場搞成這麼糟糕最大的元兇是財政部再講一次台灣的市場搞成這樣最大的元兇是財政部很簡單嘛我們財政部把台灣的租屋市場搞成一個違規沒有任何成本守法的房東反而吃虧嘛"},{"start":7018.37,"end":7040.882,"text":"很清楚所有房東都知道這事然後因為這樣的地下化現在造成了所有問題就要內政部要地政司來解決什麼問題房客權益受損因為房東不想讓政府知道所以不讓你領租補不讓你登記不讓你幹嘛因為房東地下化說我沒有落實公正所以很多租屋的糾紛等等他也遇到餓的房客趕不走"},{"start":7042.743,"end":7049.569,"text":"政府的困境是什麼政府困境是我無法掌握資訊所以我很多住宅政策的部分上我無法有效的執行我按到什麼東西是不是好"},{"start":7064.677,"end":7085.215,"text":"我想現在改革這個改革方案我就不多說大家知道事實上各界都講了各式各樣的問題我覺得那個問題的關鍵是如果沒有改變現在地下化的結構這些操作的問題都會出現問題怎麼出現我覺得最簡單因為我們現在討論內政部處理的是我們要提出三大的改革方案"},{"start":7085.939,"end":7110.82,"text":"可是他有兩個前提要解決第一個是我技術上要如何管那就是我要看得到市場我要知道誰在租房子我才有辦法管到他第二個事實上剛剛也很多人提的我遇到了很多的反彈你要管租金管租期遇到很多反彈等等要怎麼解決我們有沒有一些方式來化解這些反彈我覺得現在這一些的籌碼工具又不在"},{"start":7112.558,"end":7126.254,"text":"財政部的手頭上所以我覺得這一波的改革財政部又再一次把改革的責任推得一乾二淨就是你製造出的問題那我們覺得要解決問題現在財政部還是不用出面解決這就是我第二個看法"},{"start":7127.12,"end":7152.414,"text":"所以我覺得最關鍵的是第一件事就要做什麼我們要先讓市長透明市長透明除了大家談登錄之外真正的關鍵是財政部你要用一個方大家都知道為什麼房東不想讓政府知道他租房子所以財政部一定要來去做租稅的解決我們講了很多年財政部每天就在講租稅正義可是我要問財政部你從中華民國到現在你哪一天收到房東的稅過就是收不到"},{"start":7154.955,"end":7184.573,"text":"大家要不要面對現實來解決這些事那也包括像房地合一稅這種反正就是說你會造成我講實話就是我願意來租房子我反而不能適用自住那我偷偷租房子的話我還可以享受房地合一稅的自住不然的話就我寧願把房子空在那裡我不要租我可以享受房地合一稅的稅負所以這些事情大家都知道就是財政部不要去面對所以我覺得這是第二個關鍵就是一定要去解決這件事"},{"start":7185.413,"end":7200.42,"text":"第二個事情就是我們要讓機制有緩衝就是說剛講過 如果政府要加強管理我們要先鼓勵市場有更多的房子出租如何鼓勵有更多的房子出租 關鍵還是財政部目前現在的狀況是 剛講過房地合一稅是個最嚴重的事情"},{"start":7207.503,"end":7222.314,"text":"我如果房東真的願意把房子拿出來出租我反而不能享受房地合一歲優惠這也解釋了為什麼台灣有這麼多空屋的我不是說唯一原因是一個非常重要的原因那也包括我們"},{"start":7223.249,"end":7248.337,"text":"前兩年財政部說要做囤房稅2.0我們就跟他說囤房稅2.0沒有效就不會減少空屋的部分所以我這邊大概不多說我們可以舉一個像德國的例子德國他們做了怎麼樣的方式鼓勵房東長期出租怎麼鼓勵民間來做更多的出租住宅所以他們的稅的部分上的優惠我真的覺得我們台灣的財政部應該看到"},{"start":7250.698,"end":7275.382,"text":"那另外一個我要特別講這是最近我看到財政部一個公開回到立法院的報告他說現在你們內政部那麼辛苦做很多包租貸款都是他說都是他的功勞啦因為他囤房稅2.0有助於讓你們包租貸款做這麼多可是人家問你說那為什麼空污率創新高等等他說那是內政部的責任請內政部回答啦"},{"start":7276.121,"end":7304.431,"text":"我覺得我們今天討論租屋市場的改革就一模一樣的事情啦就是所有的問題是你造成的可是要解決的方式都要內政部去解決啦所以我還是對於今天的方式我的講法就是這個樣子所以我覺得我們修法建議是我們支持內政部改革方向可是我覺得這一次的重點是一定要財政部在怎麼講鼓勵房東把房子拿出來出租鼓勵民間來做更多出租出來的部分"},{"start":7305.291,"end":7327.111,"text":"財政部不能夠再躲我覺得還在講財政部不能再躲財政部不能再躲你們是最大最大的問題所在來源如果這件事不解決的話我覺得我們修法通過我們會有非常高的管理成本而且是很難去被執行落實的這才是真正的關鍵"},{"start":7328.294,"end":7348.705,"text":"所以我最後一章大概講那個邏輯很簡單我就覺得用一個小孩子來比喻嘛一個人要先會學會站起來他才可以往前走那他有他有能力往前他還可以用跑嘛那我會覺得我們市場的讓我們台灣的租屋市場透明讓更多的租屋的供給就是先讓我們市場站起來"},{"start":7350.399,"end":7368.386,"text":"先讓我們市場可以穩定的往前走然後因為我們這些現在要做的相關的租賃權益租期保障租金管制的管控這個方向這個價值我們都同意可是這個對我的比喻就是他有點要跑起來所以如果你沒有下面這兩個基礎你怎麼做得到"},{"start":7370.167,"end":7392.842,"text":"可是這兩個基礎的關鍵的所有的工具手段就是在財政部這裡所以我還是覺得如果我們這次要談租屋改革事實上是要用一個這樣的方式來看我當然知道租賃專法是內政部所掌管的可是我還是要請大家講清楚台灣租屋市場的困境跟問題是由於多年來財政部造成的困難"},{"start":7393.602,"end":7416.432,"text":"所以我覺得這一次配合租賃專法裡面財政部一定要打破過去那種官僚跟蠻憨的思維要去面對問題而不是說所有的問題都是要內政部解決內政部提了管制改革的方案請財政部要配套提出鼓勵房東把房子拿出來出租鼓勵市場上願意"},{"start":7417.412,"end":7441.836,"text":"提供更多房子出租的相關的稅負改革那我覺得這樣的方式才能讓內政部想要推動的改革上他才不會避免非常多房東的反彈而且我們可以鼓勵更多的房東來做甚至讓我們的包租代管讓我們的租金補貼可以事半功倍我覺得這才是真正的關鍵所在好的 發言到這裡 謝謝謝謝 我們感謝彭秘書長"},{"start":7452.498,"end":7477.007,"text":"我們現在是不是最好今天那時的專家都說明了的意見也說到這裡我們是不是請內政部回應說明沒關係 說得清楚一人五分鐘給你三分鐘給你謝謝 謝謝教育"},{"start":7479.434,"end":7492.592,"text":"我知道 我知道 謝謝教育那也非常 所有的單位來沒關係 沒關係我看你會請市長 署長 次長 個別回答但是我先感謝一下因為今天我們要感謝 我們要轉告"},{"start":7494.734,"end":7508.747,"text":"我剛有特別提到我們今天非常感謝就是內政委員會尤其在大家都非常忙的狀況之下有召開這個公聽會那除了謝謝昭偉以外也要謝謝今天來發言的包括劉許廷委員跟蔓玉珍委員"},{"start":7509.588,"end":7522.391,"text":"那同時也非常謝謝包括這個張志源教授還有劉啟復律師還有這個江穎慧助理教授張勝剛理事呂秉儀催媽媽的執行長那還有陳奕進這個青年民主協會的常務監事那陳柏勳是這個房東服務總會的理事長還有彭永凱奧爾斯的秘書長"},{"start":7535.074,"end":7560.164,"text":"那我們剛聽到各位的聲音我們現在就是特別請司長署長跟次長來跟各位特別回應一下那因為我剛剛是不匯報所以沒有辦法及時來但是我的同仁都有告訴我說各位的發言的方向那當然剛剛有人在講說不會是只有內政部應該處理可是我跟大家報告一下這個租賃的這個條例還有住宅法無論怎麼樣內政部還是掛主管機關"},{"start":7561.344,"end":7585.424,"text":"所以不管怎麼樣跨出第一步內政部永遠會往前跨第一步那不管有什麼樣的意見我們今天這樣的公聽會是要來整合大家的意見那共識性最強的不管是要修法或是有預告執法或是未來要跟其他跨部會的協商的話我們會一起努力那我就先請這個司長然後再來署長跟次長跟大家回應一下剛剛幾個問題也順便回應立委的詢問"},{"start":7589.366,"end":7607.353,"text":"主席部長然後今天各位專家學者大家好那首先非常感謝各位專家學者給我們那麼多的意見因為在整個註定條例的修法的部分在過程中其實我們邀請很多的在座各位提供寶貴的意見那其實在修法的整個大方向有關於要健全這個市場"},{"start":7608.598,"end":7630.937,"text":"然後讓我們租屋族穩均然後也保障我們房東房客的權益其實也是我們這一次修法最大的一個方向那剛剛其實專家學者有提到幾個很重要的部分第一個如何兼顧到房東的權益包含公正法的這些部分那如何對於不良房客房東的一些處理機制其實我們都已經把它納到這一次條例的一個範疇裡面"},{"start":7632.378,"end":7651.48,"text":"那對於一個續約或者是一個租金的一個部分的話其實我們也聽到很多專家學者給我們的意見包含第一個是希望對於增加租屋的供給那這個是避免對於一個租屋市場的一個衝擊那這個部分其實在部長的指導下其實我們也在思考這個問題"},{"start":7652.401,"end":7676.874,"text":"如何結合一些稅優然後來讓租屋市場來提供供給避免對於租屋市場的影響那另外對於一個租金的一個統計的部分其實我們內政部也一直在推動這個部分包含到我們也一直在定期發布一個租金的一個統計資訊那剛剛江穎惠老師有特別提到希望我們在做精進的部分我們會持續下去那對於奧爾斯"},{"start":7678.635,"end":7702.499,"text":"彭明書長講的全面實價登錄的部分其實在實務上當然這個我們可能還是會思考到幾個問題第一個對於租約掌握的問題那會不會造成一個租屋市場的另外一個衝擊的問題因為會不會造成房東不願意反而不願意把房屋釋出的部分所以這個可能還是有一些層面必須要去做一個思考"},{"start":7702.979,"end":7724.096,"text":"那剛剛其實像劉律師有提到押金抵付租金抵付租金的部分在一些實務上面判決了一些問題其實在這一次修法裡面我們都有注意到也把它納進去那各位的建議我們會納入來做一個一個通盤的一個修法的參考那也要謝謝各位委員然後謝謝主席幫我們安排這一次會議謝謝謝謝我們現在國土署管理署署長 副署長來"},{"start":7733.352,"end":7760.873,"text":"感謝委員召開這個會議首先我也要感謝我們租賃協會還有房東總會老實說包租貸款這幾年的成功靠的不是只有政府我們自己單方訂一個包租貸款的制度其實都靠我們業界不斷的支持我們把更多的房東找出來那當然租補也是一個非常大的一個來源那所以過去這些年"},{"start":7762.045,"end":7790.207,"text":"我們其實是透過鼓勵的方式那透過減稅那還有跟財政部不斷的溝通然後讓房東一步一步願意把這個房子試租那我相信現在願意走到檯面上願意接受公益出租人的這樣一個其他都是非常好的優質房東當然因為每個人在租房子決定房子出租都有他的一些背景條件"},{"start":7790.908,"end":7815.861,"text":"甚至願意走到願意讓他被列進去的時候他還是有一些背景條件但我們也尊重說最什麼我們過去在做相關的這個租金租金的資料實價登錄資料的時候有些房東其實他是不願意他不願意並不表示他真的不想去公開這一個而是他也擔心會帶來一些負面的效果絕對不是只有說服這件事情"},{"start":7817.042,"end":7845.497,"text":"那所以我們在過程中都是尊重所以為什麼會去不斷的去透過我是採取呃提供一個中位數的概念或提供一個路段的概念其實他有他的一個背景原因啊那所以也有大家這樣不斷的房客端也有像呃像崔媽媽基因會還有奧爾斯還有很多團體給我們不斷的鞭策我們也不斷的在往前推進這樣的一些修正的理念啊那所以"},{"start":7846.021,"end":7872.55,"text":"我站在國土署的角度來講包租代管已經形成了一個很好的管理的制度出來即便現在還很難達成大家的理想但是我覺得現在的制度是不斷的往更好的方向來邁進那在這過程當中我也覺得慢慢可以往前走就是像這個包租代管這邊業者希望推出的這個所謂的友善房東那在我們來講我們是認為就是"},{"start":7873.84,"end":7895.025,"text":"這些都是算比較優質的房東其實他可以慢慢慢慢在某些制度上他可以被凸顯出來變成說未來很多的租客他其實可以朝向找這些房東開始去做一些連結現在就是說逐步去把這些優質房東的名單怎麼樣慢慢的浮現出來讓他可以變成好的租客的一個選擇"},{"start":7896.107,"end":7910.679,"text":"那當然我覺得在租客端這些也是慢慢要去建立一些名單讓兩邊都能夠兩邊的名單都能夠慢慢拉出來的話其實我覺得對租賃市場的健全化友善化我覺得這會是一個好的"},{"start":7911.189,"end":7939.67,"text":"那當然對於拉長租期這件事情 老實說我們也是認為說你今天有好鼓勵房東跟鼓勵房客這樣的一個制度 雙向制度都出來慢慢去拉長這個房東的這個租約的租長約的意願那去限制不要說是限制 而是他願意不漲租其實就像我們現在租補的狀態下其實超過90%的房東都是不漲租的其他都是不漲租的"},{"start":7940.233,"end":7966.574,"text":"那它有它的市場條件當然這個市場條件不代表所有的市場條件可是我們是希望願意把這個市場是這樣維持住它會比限制漲幅這件事來得更有意義那所以限制漲幅它會有一定的約制條件但是我們也會站在一個認同的角度說我們在這過程當中慢慢把現有維持住好的租約環境"},{"start":7968.07,"end":7978.708,"text":"讓他變成一個公開而且是一個透明的環境那甚至他是有穩定的環境這件事能夠被市場廣泛的接受那接續下來去處理到他的續約跟"},{"start":7981.061,"end":8006.644,"text":"租金漲幅這件事的話它的連結就會有一個正當性這會有這個正當性我想今天大家的建議我們都有聽到當然也包含了所建議的往去修正公正法這個方向那再結合租賃條例的還有這一個定型化契約的修正我覺得這方面我們站在鼠推動這個包租貸款跟租賃補貼的交流我想我們也會全力來協助跟配合說這樣一個補充 謝謝"},{"start":8010.338,"end":8011.159,"text":"謝謝 感謝吳署長"},{"start":8020.598,"end":8046.568,"text":"好謝謝主席跟今天出席的各位學者專家還有相關部會的同仁那麼我想今天這一場公聽會其實對於整個國家的住宅政策特別在租賃市場的發展上其實是頗具意義因為我們希望一方面希望能夠全面性的去了解我們在租賃市場上面大家對租賃市場上的需求那包括說在資訊的透明化"},{"start":8047.128,"end":8064.464,"text":"以及整個在租屋市場的包括租屋歧視跟房東房客之間的一些關係的重建這些都是我們期待要去解決的那我也非常感謝立法院我們召委跟許多的委員支持我們內政部進行相關條例的修正"},{"start":8064.964,"end":8090.704,"text":"事實上整個條例的修正的最關鍵議題也是剛剛各位所提到的我們首先是希望能夠建立將整個資訊的透明化的制度我們怎麼樣逐步逐步來完成落實那透過這樣的一個逐步的落實的過程裡面我們才能夠讓整個租賃市場它在尊重市場機制的狀況之下每個人都能夠有所清楚的選擇我想各位剛才其實也說得很清楚"},{"start":8091.204,"end":8113.215,"text":"在市場資訊不夠透明完整的狀況之下本來就是會容易造成大家在租屋選擇上的困難但是我也要強調租屋市場的資訊的完整的透明化的建構其實可能沒有辦法如各位所想像的那樣子那麼快速我們就直接就公佈因為在租賃市場上的最大的差異性跟住宅市場上的差異性就在於說"},{"start":8113.875,"end":8132.065,"text":"整個租賃市場上的多樣性實在是太多了包括房型地點然後它的整體的裝潢等等這些都是我們在租賃過程裡面我們所要面對的那包括剛才幾位也有提到什麼叫好房東什麼叫好房客事實上這些都會影響到我們對很多事情的判斷"},{"start":8132.825,"end":8153.211,"text":"所以我們一定會逐步的透過相關的資料的收集跟我們自己本身的資料的運作那讓這個公佈的過程裡面會更資訊更完整那第二個透過這樣的一個資訊的完整的運作之後我們下一步要建立的其實是大家比較有共識的部分就是怎麼樣子落實保障租賃雙方的平等的權益"},{"start":8154.051,"end":8173.733,"text":"透過租賃雙方平等權益的對等那麼事實上所謂的租賃黑市的問題其實也才能夠解決今天我們之所以認定會有所謂的租賃黑市是在於說我租賃雙方彼此之間對於彼此的契約或者如何落實契約之間事實上是有一定的爭議或者是不滿或者是誤解"},{"start":8174.99,"end":8190.07,"text":"包括說我們在整個條例要修正過程裡面奉部長指示我們其實都舉辦了多場的公聽會在這個公聽會的過程裡面我們特別有一場是邀請年輕朋友來跟我們座談在座談的過程裡面"},{"start":8191.371,"end":8217.203,"text":"才去發現到說其實所謂的在租賃市場上面的一些對房客造成的威脅有時候不是來自於房東而是來自於其他的房客那麼這些房客他基於不同性別的狀態他對整個租屋環境的認知也有所差別也就是說當我們在座作為一個生理男性在做租屋市場的過程裡面其實我們可能沒有辦法去考量到"},{"start":8217.583,"end":8236.58,"text":"許多森林女性在整個租屋市場上面的相對的更加的弱勢以及她所受到的壓迫跟歧視所以我們為什麼要去保障房東跟房客的權益特別是賦予房東一定的權益就是說他可以把一些房客趕走那趕走的形式他可能不單單僅僅只是說他沒有繳房租"},{"start":8237.16,"end":8258.047,"text":"還要包括說他其他的老齡的行為等等這也是建立在對於其他房客的保障跟保護所以這個部分我想我們今天的共識其實是比較高的就是說我們怎麼樣子能夠完成對於租戶裡面對住宅政策裡面租賃市場裡面租房東跟房客之間的完整權益的保障以及它相關的配套"},{"start":8258.587,"end":8272.496,"text":"那包括我們剛剛署長有特別提到的整個的還有剛剛各位學者專家都有提到我們怎麼樣跟司法院協商那我們也感謝司法院在今天所提出的相關的意見見解裡面對於整個公正制度如何強化"},{"start":8273.917,"end":8298.772,"text":"司法院願意尊重大院的決定那大家進一步來做討論那這部分我們會繼續跟司法院做溝通跟討論我們希望能夠在未來能夠持續去把這件事情做完成那麼我們也拜會了事實上我們在過去也拜會了財政部那在拜會財政部的過程裡面其實就如同各位所在意的租賃市場的另外一個最重要的關鍵其實是屋原穩定的提供"},{"start":8299.272,"end":8319.254,"text":"那在台灣面對已經有91萬餘戶的空餘屋的狀況之下我們如何透過稅制的改變那麼來給予稅優或者是相關的稅率的提升讓更多的空餘物能夠被釋出一方面它其實穩定了租屋市場那另外一方面也協助持有者在一定程度上"},{"start":8319.714,"end":8343.021,"text":"他去matching他未來可能的買主那更重要的事情是我們能夠有效的降低國家的整體在淨零政策方面的碳排的運作因為既然有這麼多空餘物的出現那我們還不斷的去新建新的房子事實上是對整體國家的整體碳排是造成很重要的影響那更重要的事情是造成我們在租賃市場上面的不公平跟不對等"},{"start":8343.721,"end":8365.179,"text":"那沒有辦法落實整體的租賃市場的完整性所以我想我們會在這幾個方面我們會積極去落實改善那也謝謝各位委員各位委員跟學者專家今天給我們許多的相關寶貴的意見我們在未來修法的過程裡面我們將會秉持這些意見以及我們在過去在公聽會上面所獲得到的許多的那個"},{"start":8366.079,"end":8384.692,"text":"沿逃會或者是公聽會上所獲得許多的重要的寶貴意見那持續跟相關的單位我們做溝通我們期望在可以的話我們盡量可以在這個會期我們把相關的法令提出來送大院審查那在這個過程裡面我們會做最完整更好的整理以上謝謝謝謝感謝董事在這裡剛才我們的學者專家有說在進步這個"},{"start":8395.231,"end":8406.011,"text":"負稅署有專門委員是不是剛才專家所講的有什麼意見跟所面後是不是請回答一下"},{"start":8421.414,"end":8437.91,"text":"不好意思喔因為我剛剛就是特別大家都有提到租稅的問題其實財政部沒有不管財政部很願意幫忙而且做了蠻多的事情那我不知道剛剛好像有AURUS的理事長對我們是不是有一些誤解"},{"start":8439.992,"end":8444.636,"text":"我們今天有書面報告你是不是可以參考我們現在就是針對在稅制稅證上面其實都為了我們健全我們的租賃市場我們提供了很多的努力在座有一位女執行長我十年前就認識她了我們從住宅法走到租賃專法我們也盡量的提供了租稅優惠減免那包括最近我們連我們自己的所得稅也做了"},{"start":8466.714,"end":8478.642,"text":"為了租賃市場也做了那個租金列舉扣除也做了努力那也提高了那個列舉扣除的額度那另外就是說我們在房地合一2.0我們也剛上路對不對我們也做了很多努力我們也結合說未來如果說你的房子出租你報了租金其實我們也也為了敦促你誠實納稅我們也給你比較低的房屋稅率"},{"start":8494.292,"end":8499.379,"text":"其實是做了很多事只是我們可能沒有行銷但是其實財政部願意幫忙也很努力幫忙那今天與會來賓的一些建議的話如果是說就是我們其實很跟內政部都密切的在"},{"start":8510.394,"end":8532.256,"text":"在討論剛剛次長也講也敗會我們了其實都有在演繹中不要對我們這麼敵意說我們沒有幫忙或者說我們置身事外這件事情那朱黑市的事情其實是大家努力我不知道在座剛剛張老師張教授有講他是公益出租人我也是"},{"start":8533.718,"end":8540.865,"text":"對 而且我對現在的租稅減免的範圍我非常的滿意 真的是以上補充說明這樣是不是我們的財政部會有這個說明請問各位專家 學者我們是否有需要在第二輪"},{"start":8556.687,"end":8583.507,"text":"好 來三文江 抱歉謝謝喔 那個秘書長有什麼問題 我們請你回答我簡短講那個不好意思我還是要回應就是說財政部沒有真正回答重點第一個重點是台灣為什麼租屋地下化為什麼其實大家這是常識所有台灣人知道所有房東都在逃漏稅而且是幾十年來都是這樣子"},{"start":8584.811,"end":8596.717,"text":"這件事情就造成了整個文化就變成了房東地下化是一個天經地義的他去認真去繳稅變成傻子去讓政府知道還要繳所得稅讓政府知道房屋買賣交易的時候房地合一稅沒有減免這目前的真實結構是這樣財政部要回答我這個問題"},{"start":8607.726,"end":8633.311,"text":"這才是真正要談的關鍵嘛那這個談的關鍵就是說造成台灣就兩個現象屋主呢要嘛就是房子寧願空著也不要租第二個就是我租了可是不要讓政府知道偽裝成還是自住嘛我講白話就是這樣子嘛然後再來是說財政部我們過去幾年跟他交手了他每次都講租稅正義可是我就問你嘛台灣這麼多年來你哪一天收到房東的稅過了"},{"start":8635.066,"end":8656.732,"text":"那我的意思是說他每次都說要加強查緝可是我的意思說這件事不能解決所以我們沒有在指望說有沒有可能換一個思維我們應該用租稅制度建立在說我們鼓勵只要房東如果願意長期承租法國就是這個做法長期承租德國這個做法我在交易稅給你減免"},{"start":8657.952,"end":8673.72,"text":"就是鼓勵你長期出租嘛其實就是要鼓勵這件事情來做啊然後第二個事情是鼓勵房東透明嘛那我們講說給他租稅大赦啊那因為只要房東透明只要房東願意透明他會不讓房客領租補嗎會不讓房客攝戶籍嗎會不讓房客"},{"start":8678.763,"end":8689.406,"text":"抵稅嗎現在所有問題來源就是他不想讓政府知道他在租房子嘛其實就是不想讓財政部知道他在租房子所以我覺得這才是結構性問題要解決好我的意見都道理謝謝謝謝我們感謝彭秘書長在這我們財政部的覺得還有回答一個"},{"start":8707.483,"end":8737.142,"text":"來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":8737.482,"end":8752.726,"text":"那因為畢竟交易所得或資本利得跟相對應我們其他的勤勞所得來說他在公平性上面會有相對剝奪感那我們剛剛說的房地合一裡面的自住優惠我們是給一般的就是"},{"start":8754.858,"end":8774.14,"text":"可能是只有一間房屋賴以居住的我們給他一個租稅減免那我們政策上比較不是提供給有一屋以上有一間自己住另外還有多餘的房子可以出租的人那對他來講他是資本綠德如果說在房東端的租稅又會比"},{"start":8775.081,"end":8792.349,"text":"房客端的來的更優惠的時候會有相對的剝奪感是這個有難處啊所以但是但剛剛好像市長他們那邊我們會配合他們來研議好不好那不要對我們那麼誤解我們從沒有一直講租稅正義我記得我在那個會議上都沒有這樣講話對"},{"start":8795.765,"end":8801.509,"text":"沒關係,因為我覺得有問題跟他們說的這樣,我們要去說明清楚,跟我們做報告的,看要怎麼做。不然你看他們專家花一個時間,意見給你,再不了了之,這樣也不好,這樣也不行,我們說清楚。"},{"start":8817.859,"end":8828.526,"text":"好 謝謝在剛才我們的專家說到公正法是不是司法還是法務部要解釋一下來 司法好楊法官"},{"start":8844.264,"end":8873.604,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好我們這一次是因為會議之前沒有接獲主管機關提供的草案條文所以我們在報告裡面沒有提出具體的建議所以我們對於今天各項議題的回應是表示說這部分因為涉及政策決定以及立法形成的自由我們是尊重主責機關還有貴院的職權今天內政部還有與會先進有提到"},{"start":8874.344,"end":8893.604,"text":"以公正法的規定來保障租賃雙方的權益的部分那這個部分當然也是我們尊重主管機關的提出的法條那相關的法條就是提醒就是在公正法上面公證人只可以就當事人的陳述依照法律所定的方式來做成證書"},{"start":8894.665,"end":8910.74,"text":"他並沒有認定實體法律關係的權限那公證書也沒有確定實體法律關係的效力所以那主管機關在作成相關法條的時候必須可能是必須要注意到這一點那我們以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝在這我們的專家還有人要代理補充嗎"},{"start":8923.967,"end":8926.471,"text":"我們在這感謝各位專家提供的報告的意見"},{"start":8932.324,"end":8950.6,"text":"除了有出席人員的發言提供書面資料及高清素美委員所提出的書面資料除刊登公報以外 我們會另外製作公聽會報告"},{"start":8954.183,"end":8967.11,"text":"本與全體委員及所有列席人員做參考再次感謝各位的參與謝謝大家今天的共聽會到此結束現在我們散會謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}