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這個委員的問題也曾經我們對於廠商某個案子某個廠商也有這樣的質疑但是我們會針對每個案子第一個委員的來源一定是從工程會公共委員那個名單裡面去挑選但是我們也會考慮到案子這個案子如果今天是買無人機反制系統那相關對於這個系統相關的瞭解飛控導航什麼等等的"},{"start":226.286,"end":250.198,"text":"我們會找相關系統的這個專業的專家納入這個評選委員來納入那至於說如果這真的是有問題就我們自己國安部掌握我們有中科院來協助做我們的諮詢來審定這個委員到底合不合理一定是完整的一定是完整的這個評質這個就大家互相勉勵啦互相勉勵不然到時候連這個委員問的問題啊連廠商都搖頭"},{"start":256.964,"end":280.367,"text":"所以說已經嚇到你這個委員,你現在還在問這個五年間的事情,怕會有這種情形發生接下來我們這次新的就是院裡頭提出來兩千多億的特別條例我看在野黨有提的,他們裡面有一項是說可不可以有一些東西用共同採購契約"},{"start":281.808,"end":305.977,"text":"這一塊可不可以說明一下就是說如果這個無人機的採購有部分用的共同採購契約會發生什麼樣的事情共同供應契約的部分也是我們屬於採購的一個選項之一只是說我們如果是這一次的涉及到的這些相關軍規的這個部分的話我們就採這個公開招標然後"},{"start":310.439,"end":325.966,"text":"用最有利標的方式來進行那工農供應區的部分是有納入我們的,主要是我們會有一些"},{"start":328.399,"end":355.83,"text":"因為工農供應階已經有訂了一個叫做遙控無人機的作業採購指引了那它有一個通用的一個規格的要求所以我們會根據這一個通用規格的這個要求我們也會來進行相關的這些採購所以工農供應階是我們採購的一個可能的選項之一因為我們在預算審查的時候我記得我們朝委也有提到就是說有一些這個比較"},{"start":356.73,"end":370.443,"text":"就是說比較基本的,你們現在好像放在各軍種,包括我看警政署都有就讓都不懂的人開始操作那個無人機啊,那個部分有沒有可能就用共同供應契約來做採購"},{"start":373.911,"end":396.525,"text":"委員講的可能是我們一些訓練用的無人機的部分,我們會用作為會來買的部分,納入共同供應企業的部分?其實基本上納入共同供應企業的一定是量大的,而且多個單位有共同需求,這個是大原則"},{"start":397.165,"end":420.904,"text":"那如果說是只是我們國軍或是某一個陸海空軍軍種單獨有特規的這個就不會去沒有我講特規我就是說比較共通性的規格就是說他也不懂無人機可是我們要訓練他嘛這一些像訓練無人機就是一個很典型的這個很適用這個共同共運現在都在我們的制度裡頭了有有有有必要我們都會使用"},{"start":424.642,"end":446.496,"text":"委員剛剛提到警政署那個就是我們最近幫所有的關鍵基礎設施設計的無人機防禦系統因為分別屬於不同的部會和不同的單位還有公司營的單位所以說我們就是幫他用共同供應契約來設計那由各個關鍵基礎設施他們自己來選擇供契上合格的廠商那在"},{"start":447.823,"end":464.651,"text":"選擇的越多也代表他們對這個廠商的信任度越高那這個廠商他迭代的速度也相對會快這是用共同供應契約的一個好處但是對某些軍事專門用途上來講的話可能供契反而會去妨礙到原本他的作戰需求的運用"},{"start":466.972,"end":483.424,"text":"很清楚了啦後續在審相關條例的時候再跟其他的委員再更清楚談啦因為確實大家聽起來有一些是可以用共同供應區約嘛那有一些因為特殊軍種有特殊的考量那那一塊不可能放上去就這樣子 好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:53:54.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:53:54.963000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T09:53:54.963000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T09:53:55.963000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T09:53:55.963000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T09:53:56.963000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:53:54.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:54:24.286000+08:00","text":"部長，針對今天的題目，請教幾個問題，我們在國軍軍品採購的爭議跟違約的比例，跟一般公共工程違約的比例或者爭議的比例，你們有沒有去跟工程會對過，你們相對是低的還是高的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T09:54:27.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:54:28.855000+08:00","text":"委員好，我是國防採購室主任。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T09:54:29.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:54:52.812000+08:00","text":"我們自己有做一個統計，以近5年來講，近5年招標案全國軍有將近3萬1,000案，3萬1,000案有產生爭議的是10案，至於說整個泛政府單位的公共工程違約，我們可以再去了解。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:54:53.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:54:55.214000+08:00","text":"好，那就要你們內部自己了解了。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:54:56.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:55:09.768000+08:00","text":"第二個，會出現爭議或是延宕，部長，你思考一下，有沒有一種可能就是原來開這個案子的時候就沒有把握？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:55:11.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:55:39.873000+08:00","text":"因為我們的技術一直在演進，就沒有把握，但是就是有廠商來投標了，假設說可能要一年後才會有這樣的東西，因為我們招標完之後去生產，然後各式各樣也要時間，那我們就開看看，然後就真的有人來投標了，投標之後就發現，哇，這個沒辦法，做不出來，有沒有這種情形？","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T09:55:41.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:56:03.980000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，我們都會依據個案的複雜度或風險程度，如果今天是買高科技、高整合性的系統裝備，那我們一定要去做完整的商情訪查還有產能的評估，完整掌握之後我們就知道風險在哪裡。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T09:56:03.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:56:25.576000+08:00","text":"如果這個裝備，像剛剛也講，比如說比較新式的裝備，我們從來沒有買過，譬如像無人機反制系統從來沒有買過，我們就會藉由PoC，也就是概念型驗證機制初步掌握廠商的能力，他過了這一關，就有資格再往下一關參與最有利標的評選。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T09:56:25.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:56:35.683000+08:00","text":"最有利標的評選，我們當然也會設定很多條件，讓他能夠一關一關合理的、合法的得標，我們都有掌握。好。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:56:36.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:56:40.547000+08:00","text":"你剛剛提到採購就進行評選，評選就有評選的委員，委員當然是用勾選的，就是從資料庫裡頭去勾選。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:56:40.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:56:54.093000+08:00","text":"會不會找來的委員對這些技術的認知沒有你們先進？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:56:54.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:57:12.577000+08:00","text":"就是說你們預判兩、三年後這個技術會完成、會很成熟或是怎樣，結果因為找來的委員跟軍事有關的可能是退休、退役的，他們會不會在這一方面在做評選的時候，其實他們也聽不太懂，會不會有這種情形？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T09:57:13.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:57:44.269000+08:00","text":"報告委員，委員的問題曾經我們也對某個案子、某個廠商有這樣的質疑，但是我們會針對每個案子，第一個，委員的來源一定是從工程會的那個名單裡面去挑選，但是我們也會考慮到案子，這個案子如果今天是買無人機反制系統，那對於這個系統相關的了解，包括飛控、導航什麼等等的，我們會找相關系統專業的專家納入評選委員之中。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T09:57:44.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:57:57.215000+08:00","text":"至於如果這真的是有問題，就我們自己國防部掌握的，我們有中科院來協助作為我們的諮詢，來審定這個委員到底合不合理，一定是完整的編制結構……","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:57:59.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:58:16.371000+08:00","text":"好，這個就大家互相勉勵啦，互相勉勵，不要到時候委員問的問題連廠商都搖頭，就是說已經走到哪一步了，結果你們的委員現在還在問5年前的事情，怕會有這種情形發生。","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:58:19.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:58:42.551000+08:00","text":"接下來，我們這一次院裡頭新提出來的兩千多億的特別條例，我看在野黨所提的其中有一項是說，可不可以有一些東西用共同採購契約，這一塊可不可以說明一下，如果無人機的採購有部分用了共同採購契約，會發生什麼樣的事情？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T09:58:43.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:59:08.021000+08:00","text":"共同供應契約的部分也是屬於我們採購的選項之一，只是說這一次涉及到的這些相關軍規的部分，我們就採公開招標，然後用最有利標的方式來進行。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T09:59:09.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T09:59:42.127000+08:00","text":"共同供應契約的部分是有納入我們的，主要是我們會有一些……因為共同供應契約已經有訂了一個叫做遙控無人機作業採購指引了，它有一個通用規格的要求，我們會根據這個通用規格的要求來進行相關的採購，所以共同供應契約是我們採購的可能選項之一。好。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T09:59:42.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:03.443000+08:00","text":"因為我們在預算審查的時候，我記得我們召委也有提到，有一些比較基本的，你們現在好像放在各軍種，包括我看警政署都有，就是讓都不懂的人開始操作的無人機，那個部分有沒有可能就用共同供應契約來採購？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:06.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:10.753000+08:00","text":"委員講的可能是一些我們訓練用的無人機……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:10.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:11.753000+08:00","text":"對，訓練用的。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:11.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:17.898000+08:00","text":"我們會用作維費來買的部分，至於納入共同供應契約的部分……","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:21.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:29.525000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實基本上會納入共同供應契約的一定是量大的，而且是多個單位有共同需求，這個是大原則。對。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:30.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:37.291000+08:00","text":"如果只是我們國軍，或是某一個陸海空軍軍種單獨有特規的，這個就不會去……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:37.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:39.472000+08:00","text":"我沒有講特規，我就是說大家都……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:39.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:40.573000+08:00","text":"就是比較共通性的規格、量大……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:40.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:44.276000+08:00","text":"就是他也不懂無人機，可是我們要訓練他嘛，這一些因為大家……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:45.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:49.720000+08:00","text":"對，像訓練用無人機就是一個很典型的、很適用共同供應契約。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:50.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:51.442000+08:00","text":"現在也都在我們的制度裡頭了？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:52.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:00:53.884000+08:00","text":"有，有必要我們都會使用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-20T10:00:57.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:01:04.666000+08:00","text":"委員剛剛提到的警政署那個，就是我們最近幫所有關鍵基礎設施設計的無人機防禦系統。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-20T10:01:04.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:01:18.455000+08:00","text":"因為分別屬於不同的部會和不同的公私營單位，所以我們就是幫他用共同供應契約來設計，由各個關鍵基礎設施他們自己來選擇共同供應契約上合格的廠商。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-20T10:01:20.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:01:30.148000+08:00","text":"選擇的越多也代表他們對這個廠商的信任度越高，那這個廠商迭代的速度也就相對會快，這是用共同供應契約的一個好處。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-20T10:01:30.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:01:37.631000+08:00","text":"但是對某些軍事專門用途上來講的話，可能共契反而會去妨礙到原本的作戰需求的運用。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T10:01:39.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:01:55.303000+08:00","text":"OK，好，這個你講的就很清楚了，後續在審相關條例的時候，再跟其他的委員再更清楚的談，因為確實大家聽起來有一些是可以用共同供應契約，有一些因為特殊軍種有特殊的考量，那一塊不可能放上去。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-20T10:01:56.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:01:56.424000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T10:01:56.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:01:58.924000+08:00","text":"謝謝王委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T10:01:59.224000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:02:02.938286+08:00","text":"接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":199,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時53分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員義川：部長，針對今天的題目，請教幾個問題，我們在國軍軍品採購的爭議跟違約的比例，跟一般公共工程違約的比例或者爭議的比例，你們有沒有去跟工程會對過，你們相對是低的還是高的？"],["趙主任亞平：委員好，我是國防採購室主任。我們自己有做一個統計，以近5年來講，近5年招標案全國軍有將近3萬1,000案，3萬1,000案有產生爭議的是10案，至於說整個泛政府單位的公共工程違約，我們可以再去了解。"],["王委員義川：好，那就要你們內部自己了解了。","第二個，會出現爭議或是延宕，部長，你思考一下，有沒有一種可能就是原來開這個案子的時候就沒有把握？因為我們的技術一直在演進，就沒有把握，但是就是有廠商來投標了，假設說可能要一年後才會有這樣的東西，因為我們招標完之後去生產，然後各式各樣也要時間，那我們就開看看，然後就真的有人來投標了，投標之後就發現，哇，這個沒辦法，做不出來，有沒有這種情形？"],["趙主任亞平：向委員報告，我們都會依據個案的複雜度或風險程度，如果今天是買高科技、高整合性的系統裝備，那我們一定要去做完整的商情訪查還有產能的評估，完整掌握之後我們就知道風險在哪裡。如果這個裝備，像剛剛也講，比如說比較新式的裝備，我們從來沒有買過，譬如像無人機反制系統從來沒有買過，我們就會藉由PoC，也就是概念型驗證機制初步掌握廠商的能力，他過了這一關，就有資格再往下一關參與最有利標的評選。最有利標的評選，我們當然也會設定很多條件，讓他能夠一關一關合理的、合法的得標，我們都有掌握。"],["王委員義川：好。你剛剛提到採購就進行評選，評選就有評選的委員，委員當然是用勾選的，就是從資料庫裡頭去勾選。會不會找來的委員對這些技術的認知沒有你們先進？就是說你們預判兩、三年後這個技術會完成、會很成熟或是怎樣，結果因為找來的委員跟軍事有關的可能是退休、退役的，他們會不會在這一方面在做評選的時候，其實他們也聽不太懂，會不會有這種情形？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，委員的問題曾經我們也對某個案子、某個廠商有這樣的質疑，但是我們會針對每個案子，第一個，委員的來源一定是從工程會的那個名單裡面去挑選，但是我們也會考慮到案子，這個案子如果今天是買無人機反制系統，那對於這個系統相關的了解，包括飛控、導航什麼等等的，我們會找相關系統專業的專家納入評選委員之中。至於如果這真的是有問題，就我們自己國防部掌握的，我們有中科院來協助作為我們的諮詢，來審定這個委員到底合不合理，一定是完整的編制結構……"],["王委員義川：好，這個就大家互相勉勵啦，互相勉勵，不要到時候委員問的問題連廠商都搖頭，就是說已經走到哪一步了，結果你們的委員現在還在問5年前的事情，怕會有這種情形發生。","接下來，我們這一次院裡頭新提出來的兩千多億的特別條例，我看在野黨所提的其中有一項是說，可不可以有一些東西用共同採購契約，這一塊可不可以說明一下，如果無人機的採購有部分用了共同採購契約，會發生什麼樣的事情？"],["顧部長立雄：共同供應契約的部分也是屬於我們採購的選項之一，只是說這一次涉及到的這些相關軍規的部分，我們就採公開招標，然後用最有利標的方式來進行。共同供應契約的部分是有納入我們的，主要是我們會有一些……因為共同供應契約已經有訂了一個叫做遙控無人機作業採購指引了，它有一個通用規格的要求，我們會根據這個通用規格的要求來進行相關的採購，所以共同供應契約是我們採購的可能選項之一。"],["王委員義川：好。因為我們在預算審查的時候，我記得我們召委也有提到，有一些比較基本的，你們現在好像放在各軍種，包括我看警政署都有，就是讓都不懂的人開始操作的無人機，那個部分有沒有可能就用共同供應契約來採購？"],["顧部長立雄：委員講的可能是一些我們訓練用的無人機……"],["王委員義川：對，訓練用的。"],["顧部長立雄：我們會用作維費來買的部分，至於納入共同供應契約的部分……"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，其實基本上會納入共同供應契約的一定是量大的，而且是多個單位有共同需求，這個是大原則。"],["王委員義川：對。"],["趙主任亞平：如果只是我們國軍，或是某一個陸海空軍軍種單獨有特規的，這個就不會去……"],["王委員義川：我沒有講特規，我就是說大家都……"],["趙主任亞平：就是比較共通性的規格、量大……"],["王委員義川：就是他也不懂無人機，可是我們要訓練他嘛，這一些因為大家……"],["趙主任亞平：對，像訓練用無人機就是一個很典型的、很適用共同供應契約。"],["王委員義川：現在也都在我們的制度裡頭了？"],["趙主任亞平：有，有必要我們都會使用。"],["李院長世強：委員剛剛提到的警政署那個，就是我們最近幫所有關鍵基礎設施設計的無人機防禦系統。因為分別屬於不同的部會和不同的公私營單位，所以我們就是幫他用共同供應契約來設計，由各個關鍵基礎設施他們自己來選擇共同供應契約上合格的廠商。選擇的越多也代表他們對這個廠商的信任度越高，那這個廠商迭代的速度也就相對會快，這是用共同供應契約的一個好處。但是對某些軍事專門用途上來講的話，可能共契反而會去妨礙到原本的作戰需求的運用。"],["王委員義川：OK，好，這個你講的就很清楚了，後續在審相關條例的時候，再跟其他的委員再更清楚的談，因為確實大家聽起來有一些是可以用共同供應契約，有一些因為特殊軍種有特殊的考量，那一塊不可能放上去。好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝王委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-27","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","牛煦庭","王義川","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","王安祥","黃建賓","許忠信","謝龍介","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","洪毓祥","賴士葆","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","葉元之","陳冠廷","黃仁","王定宇"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2026-07-20"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍軍品採購履約爭議與違約致獲裝期程延宕採購策略精進作\n為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156401_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}