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有請院長小議員你好議長你好 先後"},{"start":28.683,"end":45.868,"text":"人家說 以前人家說 神信靈 義聖靈是鋼骨啦你這樣了解?我台語沒說很好啦 你的台語又不好 慘了神信靈 就是說用義聖信人啦 義聖靈是鋼骨啦"},{"start":56.261,"end":61.005,"text":"你相信你就這樣 我的記憶你擔任議長的時候 我想要把你勤頂了表示你對你一生學術的研究 要勤頂了"},{"start":70.082,"end":78.187,"text":"因為下面的人替你報告不一定是真的,我剛才說是這樣的,譬如說那陣子的瑞鎮部長,跟你說所謂請問請,開兩頁我都把事情解決了,到我這陣子你才知道,原來不是這樣,開差不多幾十頁的,整頁錢都開了,到今天還要每一年要付差不多七千多萬,"},{"start":93.72,"end":102.287,"text":"去維修那些機械所以擔任一位領導人不那麼簡單很辛苦,但是你的經歷到副總統行政議長以及到現在中央議員議長"},{"start":110.953,"end":118.736,"text":"比大總統是有個子禮物不及啦我現在請教你一個價值性的,我剛才說,學術就是要求精嘛,要求精嘛,透過課堪嘛"},{"start":133.854,"end":145.859,"text":"那麼過去說過的話當然人家會把你檢視啦不過從你從政敵中來你說的一些話我可以體諒那叫做政敵汙染但你現在出來你說你理會說這個你現在又回到學術界你所說的話就不一樣了所以我現在正式請教你假如你擔任中華民國的總統如果這樣你會從意來在我面前報告"},{"start":162.183,"end":173.455,"text":"我沒有可能當時是中華民國的總統對 我說這學生就是要加薪嘛加薪之後去求情嘛對不對加薪 你是中華民國的總統你會來 當建林總統會來立法院報告嗎"},{"start":180.582,"end":209.261,"text":"加上一個陣地啦這個陣地就要可以勝利嘛加陣地就不可能勝利嘛所以說我就沒有辦法我們回答你的問題我說世間沒有那個不可能的啦哪有那個什麼不可能你說你最好一個公職就夠行政移調你啊今天不是再來啊我是做這是一個我剛才有回答過嘛這是一個核實研究但是這是行政支部喔行政支部行政支部所以如果要看你比較開的"},{"start":211.143,"end":223.094,"text":"料敵從寬,看得冷的,不是公職,但是要看得嚴格的,也是四位公職人所以我不是跟你說,阿卡蘇你是單見林總統,依照現在憲法的報告,包括像羅總統他在選舉的時候,他也說他願意來立法院面對,但是到現在沒有,沒有是他的選舉啦"},{"start":236.363,"end":247.486,"text":"如果是你,你會來嗎?我跟你說過我就不可能做總統了,除了這個家庭不成立啦先對這個食品安全,卡蘇利現在你做過了,行政議長你做過了嘛卡蘇利是行政議長,對著一個油品對專民這麼嚴肅食安這麼嚴重的問題,到今天你第二十一天,沒進食"},{"start":263.646,"end":281.193,"text":"那麼在過程中你不覺得有很多要懷疑的事你不需要去批評你的同志啦就是說整個的行政定數我到上禮拜二在向行政議員請教的時候我說這個時候已經15天了我說台灣人民齁民心洪洪機台聽到你一句道歉有一個抱歉"},{"start":293.407,"end":298.275,"text":"他大手氣我相信你做行政一定不會這樣對 道歉不是說"},{"start":301.176,"end":321.122,"text":"直接聯合一個報復新聞嘛,是針對這個事情,讓人民吃了不會心安不安不然可能報復說,雞排也吃太多啦,什麼也吃太多啦沒意思,你怎麼知道全台灣,我請教你做研究,研究這麼多全台灣,只有鹹酥雞跟雞排在生活的家庭有多少,你怎麼知道"},{"start":325.303,"end":333.768,"text":"這是有夠多的,大街商行都有看的所以你怎麼可以說,你不要吃就不要吃,那些人沒有幫人吃呢?我在說的是,在食品安全的事情,太多的問題"},{"start":346.721,"end":357.315,"text":"二十一天還不算太多不可思議了到底是完了還是解定到今天沒有一個定論這個委員我可以回答一下嗎當然啦這如果是完了還是解定的問題這是科學的問題啦"},{"start":363.083,"end":368.27,"text":"這也要很...我知道 你說要有時間 要表達 我跟你說 屬於輕重環節啦今天你三人檢視 貴姓檢視 跟一般平安的檢視速度是不一樣的對不對"},{"start":379.245,"end":386.294,"text":"今天這個這麼重大啊怎麼可能像我這樣 像私人入土機一樣這個原料 原料也要有 當初的原料可以來檢驗 還有當初進口的那種內部的調查 你要深入 我那天"},{"start":396.004,"end":407.249,"text":"當他在報告的時候 你知道嗎 他說這個中聯我們把罰款1億6千幾萬 南京罰款多少多少他說這個罰款的時候 報告喔 書名沒有喔他從頭到尾說這個中聯1億6千幾萬已經納入了我在現場聽 我聽到一個真正的聲音"},{"start":423.088,"end":442.563,"text":"這麼嚴重的一個郵寵發生這個事情繳一個六千幾萬你還在這裡累輸不輸的在表揚這是台獨的問題尤其最高的行政修正所以我今天請教你就是說你做行政修正 可是今天你是行政議長當然 老總統也沒有問題不要說沒有人對這個事情有問題現在是要怎麼緊縮"},{"start":449.185,"end":465.457,"text":"來把這個問題搜索,讓人民對食品的安全,回歸一層最安心,你有什麼建議?在食安五環裡面,就是溯源管制,就要找到它的源頭這在你裡面有講過的啊"},{"start":467.238,"end":489.805,"text":"對 這是溯源管制 第二就是製程的管制嘛所以說這就是你剛才說的那兩點要怎麼找到污染的來源是對的第三個就是集合嘛 集合就是地方政府就要有電機的集合然後這個黑心廠商要加重處罰再來就是鼓勵這個食安的相關的全民"},{"start":491.645,"end":499.194,"text":"所以說就是組織管理的這個部分呢 也希望說未來修法的時候 能夠比較嚴格人家說感傷嘛 無感不成傷 為了賺錢他敢這樣給我們按摩呢 犧牲我們的健康呢"},{"start":510.507,"end":510.627,"text":"謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:17.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:20.018000+08:00","text":"主席，我請陳院長。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:20.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:24.520000+08:00","text":"有請院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:24.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:24.801000+08:00","text":"謝委員你好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:24.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:24.981000+08:00","text":"院長你好，辛苦。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:30.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:32.564000+08:00","text":"以前的人說：「善信人，易成人之工具。","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:38.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:38.886000+08:00","text":"」你了解嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:40.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:42.607000+08:00","text":"我的台語沒有很好，但是你的臺語比較好。","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:42.607000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:43.607000+08:00","text":"你騙人，你的臺語還不好嘛？","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:43.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:43.007000+08:00","text":"那就慘了！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:43.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:26:57.202000+08:00","text":"善信人就是指容易相信人，易成人之工具，你相信他就會這樣。","quality":0.44},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:26:57.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:27:15.506000+08:00","text":"我記得你擔任院長的時候，那時候我很肯定你，表示對你一生學術研究的肯定，因為下面的人跟你報告不一定是真的，我剛才說的就是這樣，譬如說，那時候的內政部長跟你說更換身分證只有花兩億多就能把事情解決，到我質詢後你才知道原來不是這樣，要花差不多幾十億……是！","quality":0.673},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:27:15.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:27:34.801000+08:00","text":"等於整個錢都花光了，到今天每一年還要付差不多七千多萬去維修那些機械。對！","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:27:36.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:27:53.134000+08:00","text":"所以擔任一位領導人沒那麼簡單，也很辛苦，但是你的經歷到副總統、行政院長以及現在中研院的院長，比起賴總統有過之而無不及。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:27:53.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:27:54.134000+08:00","text":"沒有，我不敢，我是一位做……","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:27:54.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:27:55.134000+08:00","text":"不用謙虛啦！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:27:55.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:27:56.134000+08:00","text":"是就是，不是就不是，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:27:56.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:27:57.134000+08:00","text":"不需要謙虛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:27:53.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:28:15.515000+08:00","text":"我現在請教你一個假設性的問題，我剛才說學術就是要透過科學求真、求正，過去曾說過的話，當然人家會檢視你。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:28:15.515000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:28:16.515000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:28:15.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:28:25.839000+08:00","text":"不過當身處政治場內，你說的一些話我可以體諒，因為那叫作政治語言，但你現在出來，你說你離開公職了，現在又回到學術界，你所說的話就不一樣了，所以我現在正式請教你，假設你擔任中華民國的總統，你會同意來立法院做報告嗎？","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:28:42.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:28:45.066000+08:00","text":"我不可能擔任中華民國的總統……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:28:45.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:28:50.792000+08:00","text":"做學術就是要先假設，假設之後再去求證，對不對？對啦！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:28:50.792000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:28:51.792000+08:00","text":"但是這個假設……","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:28:51.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:28:53.455000+08:00","text":"假設你是中華民國的總統，陳建仁總統會來立法院報告嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:28:53.455000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:03.144000+08:00","text":"假設要有一個前提。是啊……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:03.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:09.568000+08:00","text":"這個前提就要能夠成立，但這個前提就不可能成立，所以我就沒辦法回答你的問題。","quality":0.618},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:09.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:13.471000+08:00","text":"世間沒有不可能的事，哪有什麼不可能？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:13.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:18.094000+08:00","text":"你說最後一個公職就到行政院長而已，但今天不是又來了，對吧？","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:18.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:22.677000+08:00","text":"我前面有回答過了，這是一個學術研究……","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:22.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:23.918000+08:00","text":"但這是行政職務喔！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:23.918000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:27.760000+08:00","text":"對，確實是行政職務。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:27.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:33.785000+08:00","text":"所以把你看得寬一點，料敵從寬，不是公職，但是看嚴格一點，也是視為公職啦，對不對？","quality":0.382},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:33.785000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:36.908000+08:00","text":"對，這就要看每一個人的想法、看法。","quality":0.214},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:36.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:29:58.344000+08:00","text":"所以我才會跟你說，假設你是陳建仁總統，依照現在憲法的報告，包括像賴總統在選舉的時候，他也說願意來立法院面對，但是到最後沒有，沒有是他的選擇，如果是你，你會來嗎？","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:29:58.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:30:01.864000+08:00","text":"我跟你說過我不可能當總統，這個假設不成立，不好意思！","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:30:02.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:30:26.487000+08:00","text":"針對食品安全，你做過行政院院長，假設你是行政院院長，對於油品、全民食安有這麼嚴肅、這麼嚴重的問題，到今天第21天沒有真象，過程中你不會覺得有很多要懷疑的地方？","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:30:27.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:30:30.909000+08:00","text":"當然你不需要批評你的同志，就是整個行政程序。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:30:32.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:30:55.611000+08:00","text":"我上禮拜二跟行政院長請教的時候，我說那時候就已經15天了，臺灣人民人心惶惶，期待聽到你的一句道歉、說一聲「歹勢」，他竟然就生氣了。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:30:55.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:12.899000+08:00","text":"我相信如果是你當行政院長就不會這樣，道歉不是說任何一個部會成員要辭職，而是針對這個事件，讓人民吃得無法心安而道歉，不要在那邊「牽尪仔補雨傘」，說雞排不要吃太多啦！","quality":0.507},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:13.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:14.500000+08:00","text":"什麼不要吃太多啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:15.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:21.102000+08:00","text":"沒有意思，你知不知道全臺灣……院長，我請教你，你做那麼多研究，全臺灣光是賣鹹酥雞及炸雞排為生計的家庭有多少，你知道嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:21.102000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:23.312500+08:00","text":"很抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:23.312500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:25.523000+08:00","text":"我沒有這個數字，也沒有在我的腦袋裡。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:25.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:27.144000+08:00","text":"有夠多的，大街小巷都看得到。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:27.144000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:28.144000+08:00","text":"當然，那很普遍沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:27.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:53.811000+08:00","text":"所以怎麼可以說不要吃，不要吃的話，那些人就會沒飯吃，我要說的就是對於食品安全的態度問題，21天還沒有真相，不可思議，到底是原料還是製程到今天沒有一個定論。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:53.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:55.693000+08:00","text":"委員，我可以回答嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:55.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:31:55.693000+08:00","text":"那當然。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:31:56.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:03.143000+08:00","text":"如果要說是原料還是製程的問題，這是科學的問題，這也要很……","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:03.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:03.684000+08:00","text":"我知道，你說要有時間……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:03.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:04.684000+08:00","text":"要調查，對！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:04.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:04.845000+08:00","text":"我跟你說事有輕重緩急。沒錯。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:05.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:08.150000+08:00","text":"今天殺人驗屍，一般過世驗屍跟刑案的驗屍速度是不一樣的。沒錯。","quality":0.481},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:19.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:21.908000+08:00","text":"今天這個事件這麼重大，哪有可能這樣，就像死人拿桃枝、桃花過渡……","quality":0.519},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:22.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:24.532000+08:00","text":"也要有當初的原料可以檢驗，還有當初進口的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:24.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:37.445000+08:00","text":"內部要深入調查，那天卓院長在報告的時候，你知道嗎？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:37.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:43.908000+08:00","text":"他說中聯罰款一億六千多萬、南僑罰款多少多少，他在說罰款的時候，只有報告喔！","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:44.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:32:44.328000+08:00","text":"沒有書面喔！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:32:44.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:33:12.956000+08:00","text":"他說中聯一億六千多萬已經繳完了，我在現場聽到被嚇到，油廠發生這麼嚴重的事情，繳一億六千多萬，你在這裡好像還在表揚他，這是態度的問題，尤其身為最高的行政首長。","quality":0.662},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:33:14.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:33:38.472000+08:00","text":"所以我今天請教你，你當行政首長，假設今天是行政院長，當然賴總統也不滿意，沒有人對這個事件有滿意的，現在是要怎麼盡速收拾這個問題，讓人民對食品安全能回歸正常跟安心，你有什麼建議？","quality":0.738},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:33:38.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:33:44.897000+08:00","text":"在食安五環裡面就是溯源管制，要去找到它的源頭。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:33:44.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:33:45.437000+08:00","text":"這在你的任內有說過的啊！","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:33:47.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:33:47.898000+08:00","text":"對，這個是溯源管制。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:33:47.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:33:55.440000+08:00","text":"第二個就是製程的管制，這就是你剛才說的那兩點，要找到污染來源是在哪邊。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:33:57.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:09.585000+08:00","text":"第三個就是稽核，就是地方政府要定期稽核，然後對黑心廠商要加重處罰，再來就是鼓勵食安相關的……","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:09.585000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:11.645000+08:00","text":"我們現在的法令是抽檢，現在讓廠商太多自主權力。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:11.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:15.630000+08:00","text":"所以自主管理的部分，也希望未來修法的時候可以比較嚴格。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:15.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:17.933000+08:00","text":"人家說奸商，無奸不成商，他為了賺錢，他敢這樣掩飾……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:17.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:18.933000+08:00","text":"沒有，臺灣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:18.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:18.994000+08:00","text":"犧牲我們的健康。對啦！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:18.994000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:20.912833+08:00","text":"這不應該。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:20.912833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:22.831667+08:00","text":"他為了賺錢，甚至他還公開說喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:22.831667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:24.750500+08:00","text":"認罪的時候說是為了公司的經營權，所以不能公布，夭壽！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:24.750500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:26.669333+08:00","text":"這樣就不對了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:26.669333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:28.588167+08:00","text":"這種人還要放過他？","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:28.588167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:30.507000+08:00","text":"所以人民會走上街頭不是沒有原因的，謝謝你。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:30.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:30.627000+08:00","text":"謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢，請院長回座。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T10:34:31.127000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T10:34:35.127000+08:00","text":"下一位有請陳培瑜委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":523,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時26分）主席，我請陳院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝委員你好。"],["謝委員龍介：院長你好，辛苦。以前的人說：「善信人，易成人之工具。」你了解嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我的台語沒有很好，但是你的臺語比較好。"],["謝委員龍介：你騙人，你的臺語還不好嘛？那就慘了！善信人就是指容易相信人，易成人之工具，你相信他就會這樣。我記得你擔任院長的時候，那時候我很肯定你，表示對你一生學術研究的肯定，因為下面的人跟你報告不一定是真的，我剛才說的就是這樣，譬如說，那時候的內政部長跟你說更換身分證只有花兩億多就能把事情解決，到我質詢後你才知道原來不是這樣，要花差不多幾十億……"],["陳院長建仁：是！"],["謝委員龍介：等於整個錢都花光了，到今天每一年還要付差不多七千多萬去維修那些機械。"],["陳院長建仁：對！"],["謝委員龍介：所以擔任一位領導人沒那麼簡單，也很辛苦，但是你的經歷到副總統、行政院長以及現在中研院的院長，比起賴總統有過之而無不及。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我不敢，我是一位做……"],["謝委員龍介：不用謙虛啦！是就是，不是就不是，對不對？不需要謙虛。我現在請教你一個假設性的問題，我剛才說學術就是要透過科學求真、求正，過去曾說過的話，當然人家會檢視你。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["謝委員龍介：不過當身處政治場內，你說的一些話我可以體諒，因為那叫作政治語言，但你現在出來，你說你離開公職了，現在又回到學術界，你所說的話就不一樣了，所以我現在正式請教你，假設你擔任中華民國的總統，你會同意來立法院做報告嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不可能擔任中華民國的總統……"],["謝委員龍介：做學術就是要先假設，假設之後再去求證，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！但是這個假設……"],["謝委員龍介：假設你是中華民國的總統，陳建仁總統會來立法院報告嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：假設要有一個前提。"],["謝委員龍介：是啊……"],["陳院長建仁：這個前提就要能夠成立，但這個前提就不可能成立，所以我就沒辦法回答你的問題。"],["謝委員龍介：世間沒有不可能的事，哪有什麼不可能？你說最後一個公職就到行政院長而已，但今天不是又來了，對吧？"],["陳院長建仁：我前面有回答過了，這是一個學術研究……"],["謝委員龍介：但這是行政職務喔！"],["陳院長建仁：對，確實是行政職務。"],["謝委員龍介：所以把你看得寬一點，料敵從寬，不是公職，但是看嚴格一點，也是視為公職啦，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，這就要看每一個人的想法、看法。"],["謝委員龍介：所以我才會跟你說，假設你是陳建仁總統，依照現在憲法的報告，包括像賴總統在選舉的時候，他也說願意來立法院面對，但是到最後沒有，沒有是他的選擇，如果是你，你會來嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你說過我不可能當總統，這個假設不成立，不好意思！"],["謝委員龍介：針對食品安全，你做過行政院院長，假設你是行政院院長，對於油品、全民食安有這麼嚴肅、這麼嚴重的問題，到今天第21天沒有真象，過程中你不會覺得有很多要懷疑的地方？當然你不需要批評你的同志，就是整個行政程序。我上禮拜二跟行政院長請教的時候，我說那時候就已經15天了，臺灣人民人心惶惶，期待聽到你的一句道歉、說一聲「歹勢」，他竟然就生氣了。我相信如果是你當行政院長就不會這樣，道歉不是說任何一個部會成員要辭職，而是針對這個事件，讓人民吃得無法心安而道歉，不要在那邊「牽尪仔補雨傘」，說雞排不要吃太多啦！什麼不要吃太多啦！沒有意思，你知不知道全臺灣……院長，我請教你，你做那麼多研究，全臺灣光是賣鹹酥雞及炸雞排為生計的家庭有多少，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：很抱歉！我沒有這個數字，也沒有在我的腦袋裡。"],["謝委員龍介：有夠多的，大街小巷都看得到。"],["陳院長建仁：當然，那很普遍沒錯。"],["謝委員龍介：所以怎麼可以說不要吃，不要吃的話，那些人就會沒飯吃，我要說的就是對於食品安全的態度問題，21天還沒有真相，不可思議，到底是原料還是製程到今天沒有一個定論。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["謝委員龍介：那當然。"],["陳院長建仁：如果要說是原料還是製程的問題，這是科學的問題，這也要很……"],["謝委員龍介：我知道，你說要有時間……"],["陳院長建仁：要調查，對！"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說事有輕重緩急。"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["謝委員龍介：今天殺人驗屍，一般過世驗屍跟刑案的驗屍速度是不一樣的。"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["謝委員龍介：今天這個事件這麼重大，哪有可能這樣，就像死人拿桃枝、桃花過渡……"],["陳院長建仁：也要有當初的原料可以檢驗，還有當初進口的……"],["謝委員龍介：內部要深入調查，那天卓院長在報告的時候，你知道嗎？他說中聯罰款一億六千多萬、南僑罰款多少多少，他在說罰款的時候，只有報告喔！沒有書面喔！他說中聯一億六千多萬已經繳完了，我在現場聽到被嚇到，油廠發生這麼嚴重的事情，繳一億六千多萬，你在這裡好像還在表揚他，這是態度的問題，尤其身為最高的行政首長。所以我今天請教你，你當行政首長，假設今天是行政院長，當然賴總統也不滿意，沒有人對這個事件有滿意的，現在是要怎麼盡速收拾這個問題，讓人民對食品安全能回歸正常跟安心，你有什麼建議？"],["陳院長建仁：在食安五環裡面就是溯源管制，要去找到它的源頭。"],["謝委員龍介：這在你的任內有說過的啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對，這個是溯源管制。第二個就是製程的管制，這就是你剛才說的那兩點，要找到污染來源是在哪邊。第三個就是稽核，就是地方政府要定期稽核，然後對黑心廠商要加重處罰，再來就是鼓勵食安相關的……"],["謝委員龍介：我們現在的法令是抽檢，現在讓廠商太多自主權力。"],["陳院長建仁：對。所以自主管理的部分，也希望未來修法的時候可以比較嚴格。"],["謝委員龍介：人家說奸商，無奸不成商，他為了賺錢，他敢這樣掩飾……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，臺灣……"],["謝委員龍介：犧牲我們的健康。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！這不應該。"],["謝委員龍介：他為了賺錢，甚至他還公開說喔！認罪的時候說是為了公司的經營權，所以不能公布，夭壽！"],["陳院長建仁：這樣就不對了。"],["謝委員龍介：這種人還要放過他？所以人民會走上街頭不是沒有原因的，謝謝你。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢，請院長回座。","下一位有請陳培瑜委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-21","speakers":["伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","柯志恩","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","蔡春綢","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","羅智強","吳沛憶","洪孟楷","許忠信","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","林宜瑾","傅崐萁","吳宗憲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-20"],"gazette_id":"1156501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長陳建仁列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}