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樣就上去六個月前,這就是那一件"},{"start":101.11,"end":103.11,"text":"這件沒辦法嘛"},{"start":102.78,"end":104.78,"text":"這不怪嘛,這做總統的"},{"start":106.61,"end":108.61,"text":"這中宏耶"},{"start":108.66,"end":110.66,"text":"台灣大陸,我去探聽多少人,還探聽到"},{"start":113.01,"end":115.01,"text":"現在確定不行喔"},{"start":115.03,"end":119.03,"text":"他在七月初,他就超過36天,解獄"},{"start":119.03,"end":121.03,"text":"發四千幾萬"},{"start":121.03,"end":123.03,"text":"啊解獄後"},{"start":123.03,"end":125.03,"text":"目前就在當地上岸"},{"start":125.03,"end":127.03,"text":"要發四千幾萬,他沒錢"},{"start":127.03,"end":129.03,"text":"但是他押標金多少"},{"start":129.45,"end":131.45,"text":"押標金"},{"start":132.89,"end":134.89,"text":"兩千五萬的款"},{"start":134.89,"end":136.89,"text":"差不多,因為我這裡住了,我沒寫"},{"start":136.89,"end":138.89,"text":"剛才兩千多,這樣放著"},{"start":138.89,"end":140.89,"text":"兩千多萬的押標金"},{"start":140.89,"end":142.89,"text":"不良廠商,給他停權"},{"start":143.11,"end":145.11,"text":"停權喔"},{"start":145.11,"end":147.11,"text":"他們就自分一組組"},{"start":147.11,"end":149.11,"text":"一人公司,準備四五十金"},{"start":149.11,"end":151.11,"text":"要給你用"},{"start":151.5,"end":153.5,"text":"所以你可以再出四五十個標案"},{"start":153.5,"end":155.5,"text":"他都能吃得下耶"},{"start":158.99,"end":160.99,"text":"這實在是真的有夠離譜"},{"start":160.99,"end":162.99,"text":"你敢知道"},{"start":162.99,"end":164.99,"text":"你當時跟我們講,很緊張耶"},{"start":164.99,"end":166.99,"text":"如果不趕快採購啊"},{"start":166.99,"end":168.99,"text":"這對我們這個"},{"start":168.99,"end":170.99,"text":"建軍啊,備案啊"},{"start":172.26,"end":174.26,"text":"會很影響耶"},{"start":174.26,"end":176.26,"text":"對我們的戰力"},{"start":176.26,"end":178.26,"text":"嚴重下降"},{"start":178.26,"end":180.26,"text":"譬如說,我都"},{"start":180.26,"end":182.26,"text":"對你們的武神都支持"},{"start":181.74,"end":183.74,"text":"你看我這樣,真心換很多"},{"start":185.27,"end":187.27,"text":"我對你們這麼要小心"},{"start":187.23,"end":189.23,"text":"你怎麼給我放工"},{"start":189.52,"end":193.52,"text":"我今天叫國民黨這裡的國防委員會委員都給我請"},{"start":193.98,"end":195.98,"text":"你都說不能看"},{"start":196.05,"end":198.05,"text":"武神不要抬"},{"start":198.35,"end":200.35,"text":"他還在那邊看,他怎麼這樣"},{"start":200.96,"end":202.96,"text":"跟你說三名,現在跟你說三名"},{"start":202.96,"end":204.96,"text":"不好意思,一定要學會,不好意思"},{"start":204.96,"end":206.96,"text":"沒辦法"},{"start":208.07,"end":210.07,"text":"我電話內面啊"},{"start":210.46,"end":212.46,"text":"沒辦法"},{"start":211.93,"end":213.93,"text":"我想"},{"start":213.75,"end":215.75,"text":"委員關切這個案子"},{"start":215.75,"end":217.75,"text":"那來源輸出國"},{"start":217.75,"end":219.75,"text":"一旦曝光的話"},{"start":219.75,"end":221.75,"text":"就我看法政治上的壓力"},{"start":221.75,"end":223.75,"text":"是會形成啦"},{"start":223.75,"end":225.75,"text":"但是無論如何"},{"start":226.54,"end":228.54,"text":"這個沒有按照企業來提供"},{"start":228.54,"end":230.54,"text":"部長,當時該保密的"},{"start":230.54,"end":232.54,"text":"我們都讓你保密喔"},{"start":232.54,"end":234.54,"text":"是可以公開的,是你們國防部選擇"},{"start":234.54,"end":236.54,"text":"可以公開的部分才公開喔"},{"start":236.54,"end":238.54,"text":"是,那我想我們就是"},{"start":238.54,"end":240.54,"text":"預約來累計這個"},{"start":240.54,"end":242.54,"text":"相關的這個沒收理約保證金"},{"start":242.54,"end":244.54,"text":"跟罰款的一個"},{"start":244.54,"end":246.54,"text":"一個作用"},{"start":246.54,"end":248.54,"text":"罰款敢不敢對方通知啊"},{"start":249.02,"end":251.02,"text":"是"},{"start":250.29,"end":252.29,"text":"這個是按照目前"},{"start":252.29,"end":254.29,"text":"我們會報到我們國防採購市"},{"start":254.29,"end":256.28999999999996,"text":"國防採購市就會一合一"},{"start":256.28999999999996,"end":258.28999999999996,"text":"馬上就很快"},{"start":258.28999999999996,"end":260.28999999999996,"text":"會脫散啊"},{"start":260.07,"end":262.07,"text":"他個人現在也沒出什麼來"},{"start":264.92,"end":266.92,"text":"用合成啊"},{"start":266.92,"end":268.92,"text":"好啦,你建議啊"},{"start":268.92,"end":270.92,"text":"你要去看看當時那個"},{"start":270.92,"end":272.92,"text":"壓標金是誰專給他的啊"},{"start":274.65,"end":276.65,"text":"好,我再請教你一個問題喔"},{"start":276.88,"end":278.88,"text":"法務部有沒有單位向你們調這個案子"},{"start":278.88,"end":280.88,"text":"還有那個"},{"start":281.71,"end":283.71,"text":"呃,消極瓜那個案子的資料"},{"start":285.78,"end":287.78,"text":"法務部來查明了"},{"start":287.78,"end":289.78,"text":"監察院也都來看了"},{"start":289.78,"end":291.78,"text":"我們基本上整個我們的採購的"},{"start":291.78,"end":293.78,"text":"流程基本上回覆是"},{"start":293.78,"end":295.78,"text":"沒有什麼其他的"},{"start":295.78,"end":297.78,"text":"流程不會有問題啦"},{"start":297.78,"end":299.78,"text":"台南台南地檢署也來調過了"},{"start":299.78,"end":301.78,"text":"我們依合約,依規定都等"},{"start":301.78,"end":303.78,"text":"為什麼要調"},{"start":303.78,"end":305.78,"text":"我現在就是"},{"start":305.82,"end":307.82,"text":"我要打個bug"},{"start":309.03,"end":311.03,"text":"為什麼不拿出"},{"start":310.97,"end":312.97,"text":"他的來源證明"},{"start":314.41,"end":316.41,"text":"因為人在查"},{"start":317.42,"end":319.42,"text":"這條錢,這塊肉吃不下去啊"},{"start":322.28,"end":324.28,"text":"快點辦公"},{"start":326.34,"end":328.34,"text":"各位鄉親們"},{"start":327.96,"end":329.96,"text":"你看我們的"},{"start":329.96,"end":331.96,"text":"見證案這麼嚴肅"},{"start":331.96,"end":333.96,"text":"我這樣一路給他們雞吃無雙"},{"start":334.54,"end":336.54,"text":"這媽的草"},{"start":337.65,"end":339.65,"text":"我這樣查,台南也有調問"},{"start":342.02,"end":344.02,"text":"查明了,因為這個案子"},{"start":344.02,"end":346.02,"text":"這個案子繼續走下去"},{"start":346.02,"end":348.02,"text":"成交了"},{"start":348.53,"end":350.53,"text":"阿伯來臨了,比較大隻"},{"start":351.12,"end":353.12,"text":"大伯就抓到了"},{"start":354.07,"end":356.07,"text":"所以這個斷尾求生"},{"start":356.94,"end":358.94,"text":"現在緊張了,等現在的事"},{"start":358.94,"end":360.94,"text":"阿伯,別扛"},{"start":360.94,"end":362.94,"text":"見證證就當Honky"},{"start":363.79,"end":365.79,"text":"這樣吃虧,變成我們柴港單位"},{"start":370.42,"end":372.42,"text":"阿伯,別生氣,我不生氣"},{"start":372.78,"end":374.78,"text":"你算他天啊"},{"start":374.81,"end":378.81,"text":"拜託他可以顧其他的財國國王軍購預算啊"},{"start":378.81,"end":380.81,"text":"幫忙一下"},{"start":381.42,"end":383.42,"text":"阿伯,我如果不讓你簽就幫你啊"},{"start":384.92,"end":386.92,"text":"好"},{"start":386.74,"end":388.74,"text":"阿伯,你要擲兩招讓我們屁股痛"},{"start":394.15,"end":396.15,"text":"我覺得這實在是十點不夠意思"},{"start":397.47,"end":401.47,"text":"他把你台南這裡的案件,台南地檢署都把你調整了,你知不知道"},{"start":403.14,"end":405.14,"text":"調幾個案件的資料"},{"start":407.14,"end":411.14,"text":"這不是機密,他只有調一個RDS而已,其他都沒有"},{"start":412.59,"end":414.59,"text":"阿,韓國那個黑火藥"},{"start":414.59,"end":416.59,"text":"阿伯"},{"start":417.47,"end":419.47,"text":"韓國的韓華,也是因為曝光解約"},{"start":421.82,"end":423.82,"text":"是因為曝光解約,還是他無法理約而解約"},{"start":423.82,"end":425.82,"text":"這個我們沒有按照合約取得輸出許可,一律解約"},{"start":425.82,"end":427.82,"text":"我們沒有去做其他的一些另外的想法"},{"start":427.82,"end":429.82,"text":"所以你還基本上有一個把關的態度嘛"},{"start":438.21,"end":443.21,"text":"我是要跟部長說,軍事採購啊,我們知道我們是很困難啊"},{"start":443.94,"end":445.94,"text":"在國際上咧"},{"start":447.61,"end":449.61,"text":"算是要被打死了,真的就是"},{"start":450.98,"end":452.98,"text":"就算是買方的市場也會變成賣方市場"},{"start":455.07,"end":457.07,"text":"這是真的中華民國的問題"},{"start":458.81,"end":460.81,"text":"但我們支持你"},{"start":461.09,"end":463.09,"text":"你還給我們一個交代,有的人是要我們問"},{"start":463.09,"end":465.09,"text":"阿,買一張買就用那個政治對抗"},{"start":465.09,"end":467.09,"text":"國民黨在這兒,都在判國"},{"start":467.09,"end":469.09,"text":"要當武神,不是這樣啦"},{"start":469.09,"end":471.09,"text":"不要這樣用"},{"start":471.09,"end":473.09,"text":"你用這個態度,我是不能接受"},{"start":473.09,"end":475.09,"text":"我問你,你國防部的武神,我給你當一個人"},{"start":477.96,"end":479.96,"text":"我給你當一個,過一個月嘛"},{"start":485.63,"end":487.63,"text":"我給你當一個,過一個月嘛"},{"start":487.63,"end":489.63,"text":"你說到那邊危險"},{"start":489.63,"end":491.63,"text":"台灣很危險"},{"start":490.25,"end":492.25,"text":"錢都給你了"},{"start":492.25,"end":494.25,"text":"結果你看,一條一條都給你了"},{"start":494.25,"end":496.25,"text":"在那裡抵擋"},{"start":497.46,"end":499.46,"text":"所以你給我當一個"},{"start":499.45,"end":501.45,"text":"一年一年在這兒,這次蔡鋼岸"},{"start":501.45,"end":503.45,"text":"我扮成國防部長"},{"start":504.81,"end":506.81,"text":"我會把你記警告,口頭警告"},{"start":509.54,"end":511.54,"text":"部長你幹嘛這樣做"},{"start":512.69,"end":514.69,"text":"你會不會這樣做"},{"start":514.68,"end":516.68,"text":"蔡鋼岸一條一條都開火"},{"start":517.82,"end":519.82,"text":"這樣,東京時代,立法院報告的時候"},{"start":519.82,"end":521.82,"text":"都說很緊急耶"},{"start":522.6,"end":524.6,"text":"那不,不酷啦"},{"start":525.06,"end":527.06,"text":"啊"},{"start":527.09,"end":529.09,"text":"一條一條通通開花啦"},{"start":530.7,"end":532.7,"text":"甚至法務單位都介入要調查"},{"start":535.8,"end":537.8,"text":"我很辛苦在這裡跟你說"},{"start":537.8,"end":539.8,"text":"提供一個意見"},{"start":540.32,"end":542.32,"text":"這種案件"},{"start":542.17,"end":544.17,"text":"不要再聽了啦"},{"start":546.71,"end":548.71,"text":"蔡健全的公司"},{"start":548.92,"end":550.92,"text":"我告訴你就是針對後面這些無人機產業"},{"start":553.75,"end":555.75,"text":"台灣有很多投入無人機產業研發"},{"start":557.55,"end":559.55,"text":"五年三年十五年以上的公司"},{"start":561.18,"end":563.18,"text":"我告訴你,如果要做無人機,我怎麼會當"},{"start":564.18,"end":566.18,"text":"你敢當"},{"start":567.22,"end":569.22,"text":"來,滾住,砍人嗎"},{"start":569.11,"end":571.11,"text":"如果我當了怎麼辦"},{"start":575.45,"end":577.45,"text":"我也當過了"},{"start":578.05,"end":580.05,"text":"我還當過了戰車,你知道嗎"},{"start":582.13,"end":584.13,"text":"我40年前就在開玩具工廠"},{"start":584.13,"end":586.13,"text":"你知道嗎"},{"start":587.25,"end":589.25,"text":"那如果以現在無人機的組裝"},{"start":590.74,"end":592.74,"text":"對我來說毫無困難"},{"start":592.9,"end":594.9,"text":"但是你們掌握前端的"},{"start":597.41,"end":599.41,"text":"記得授權"},{"start":599.41,"end":601.41,"text":"當你真的授權要給誰"},{"start":603.53,"end":605.53,"text":"就變成他拿到了"},{"start":605.53,"end":607.53,"text":"我在這裡很正式的跟他講"},{"start":608.26,"end":610.26,"text":"不要再有這種"},{"start":611.02,"end":613.02,"text":"給一個同胞"},{"start":612.8,"end":614.8,"text":"然後最後分包到最後"},{"start":614.8,"end":616.8,"text":"真正做了沒有幫助到"},{"start":616.8,"end":618.8,"text":"我們整個台灣這些原本"},{"start":618.8,"end":620.8,"text":"投入研發生產的"},{"start":620.8,"end":622.8,"text":"這些無人機產業"},{"start":623.34,"end":625.34,"text":"在什麼綠油有誰的油"},{"start":625.34,"end":627.34,"text":"賴油油都不重要"},{"start":627.92,"end":629.92,"text":"為台灣的國防,大家好好用心來打拚"},{"start":632.69,"end":634.69,"text":"台灣我知道的有投入無人機研發的很多"},{"start":638.11,"end":640.11,"text":"不要亂給這些工廠"},{"start":640.69,"end":642.69,"text":"給這些研發者"},{"start":642.93,"end":644.93,"text":"我們都支持"},{"start":644.93,"end":646.93,"text":"也要找一些新的"},{"start":646.93,"end":648.93,"text":"像這個公司中鴻的"},{"start":648.93,"end":650.93,"text":"賣鴨的"},{"start":650.93,"end":652.93,"text":"做這個水質做塞宅的"},{"start":654.22,"end":656.22,"text":"一定要拿我們的錢去當資本當老婆"},{"start":659.37,"end":661.37,"text":"然後你最上游給他"},{"start":661.33,"end":663.33,"text":"他裡面也是找到這些"},{"start":663.33,"end":667.33,"text":"真正投入無人機產業研發者的業者"},{"start":668.4,"end":670.4,"text":"這樣就不理人家"},{"start":670.4,"end":672.4,"text":"在這裡所有委員給你們繼續扶手"},{"start":674.93,"end":676.93,"text":"不需要這樣了"},{"start":677.34,"end":679.34,"text":"好"},{"start":679.96,"end":681.96,"text":"我是覺得對這裡的案件"},{"start":683.1,"end":685.1,"text":"韓國"},{"start":684.62,"end":686.62,"text":"這個案件"},{"start":686.86,"end":688.86,"text":"跟胡邁這個案件"},{"start":689.76,"end":691.76,"text":"以及"},{"start":693.66,"end":695.66,"text":"你現在削雞瓜進來"},{"start":696.38,"end":698.38,"text":"純度多少你有驗了嗎"},{"start":699.35,"end":701.35,"text":"我們的合約規範就是99"},{"start":701.35,"end":703.35,"text":"還沒有到,還沒有交貨"},{"start":703.35,"end":705.35,"text":"要到11月才會交貨期"},{"start":705.35,"end":709.35,"text":"現在他有跟你確定會準時交貨嗎"},{"start":709.35,"end":711.35,"text":"我們依合約辦理"},{"start":712.86,"end":714.86,"text":"那你評估現在他準時"},{"start":714.86,"end":716.86,"text":"可以交貨的機率有幾%"},{"start":716.86,"end":718.86,"text":"有沒有六成以上"},{"start":721.44,"end":723.44,"text":"我懂"},{"start":723.01,"end":725.01,"text":"沒有"},{"start":724.32,"end":726.32,"text":"沒關係,談不談"},{"start":726.32,"end":728.32,"text":"因為這已經差不多外國大家都知道了"},{"start":728.32,"end":730.32,"text":"不是,那個委員"},{"start":730.32,"end":732.32,"text":"我想合約的期限還沒有到之前"},{"start":732.32,"end":734.32,"text":"那合約"},{"start":734.32,"end":736.32,"text":"你沒法說"},{"start":736.32,"end":738.32,"text":"那個,廠商也沒有提到說"},{"start":738.32,"end":740.32,"text":"有什麼延誤的情況"},{"start":740.32,"end":742.32,"text":"那我們當然就是依合約來辦理"},{"start":742.32,"end":744.32,"text":"剛剛君佩局長也說明得很清楚"},{"start":744.32,"end":746.32,"text":"那我們其他的這些相關的"},{"start":746.56,"end":748.56,"text":"有去獲得的這個"},{"start":748.56,"end":750.56,"text":"規劃跟採購的計畫"},{"start":750.56,"end":752.56,"text":"我們都是會依法來"},{"start":752.56,"end":754.56,"text":"進行這個相關的"},{"start":754.56,"end":756.56,"text":"正常的採購作業程序"},{"start":756.56,"end":758.56,"text":"那最有利標的這個部分"},{"start":758.56,"end":760.56,"text":"我們都也會請部外的委員來進行評選"},{"start":760.56,"end":762.56,"text":"我想"},{"start":762.56,"end":764.56,"text":"這個都是"},{"start":764.56,"end":766.56,"text":"我根本辛苦"},{"start":766.56,"end":768.56,"text":"在依法再進行沒有什麼問題"},{"start":768.56,"end":770.56,"text":"但是立法院把你罷官以後"},{"start":770.56,"end":772.56,"text":"你們自己要先做第一審的罷官"},{"start":772.56,"end":774.56,"text":"不需要"},{"start":774.56,"end":776.56,"text":"我們不需要"},{"start":776.56,"end":778.56,"text":"我也不知道說"},{"start":778.56,"end":780.56,"text":"有的就是我們本地的地下全部人員"},{"start":782.27,"end":784.27,"text":"每年本地的地下全部人員"},{"start":784.27,"end":786.27,"text":"到底收集多少資料"},{"start":786.27,"end":788.27,"text":"你們才可以對他們這麼好"},{"start":792.43,"end":794.43,"text":"看了這個報告"},{"start":794.43,"end":796.43,"text":"我實在說我真鬱悶"},{"start":796.53,"end":798.53,"text":"你會覺得我一路給你們支持你們的威聲"},{"start":799.64,"end":801.64,"text":"對不對"},{"start":801.19,"end":803.19,"text":"我沒像人家說今天要怎樣問你"},{"start":803.19,"end":805.19,"text":"你來說明我都支持你"},{"start":806.88,"end":808.88,"text":"結果你給我"},{"start":809.81,"end":811.81,"text":"這個案件我為什麼要問你"},{"start":811.81,"end":813.81,"text":"因為調查局有人跟我說"},{"start":815.67,"end":817.67,"text":"我問說為什麼不翻案"},{"start":818.97,"end":820.97,"text":"甚至那個資安的"},{"start":821.96,"end":823.96,"text":"那個茶葉行"},{"start":823.96,"end":825.96,"text":"他就自己說他是人頭"},{"start":825.96,"end":827.96,"text":"我問法務部"},{"start":827.96,"end":829.96,"text":"你們為什麼不調查他"},{"start":829.96,"end":831.96,"text":"他說有"},{"start":828.66,"end":830.66,"text":"所以我現在才來跟你們"},{"start":831.77,"end":833.77,"text":"問問是不是因為來調查你"},{"start":833.77,"end":835.77,"text":"調查料"},{"start":835.8,"end":837.8,"text":"茶葉行沒有"},{"start":838.28,"end":840.28,"text":"目前沒有"},{"start":839.55,"end":841.55,"text":"目前沒有"},{"start":841.77,"end":843.77,"text":"茶葉電機店沒有來調查你"},{"start":843.77,"end":845.77,"text":"沒有"},{"start":845.77,"end":847.77,"text":"他是因為他是資安的服務"},{"start":848.24,"end":850.24,"text":"那個案子是一個資安服務"},{"start":850.24,"end":852.24,"text":"目前正在履約當中"},{"start":852.24,"end":854.24,"text":"從今年的1月1號到明年的12月30號"},{"start":854.24,"end":856.24,"text":"目前履約進度是正常"},{"start":857.97,"end":859.97,"text":"好,這樣我再來問調查局"},{"start":859.97,"end":861.97,"text":"好,就這樣,謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:18:07+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:18:10.340000+08:00","text":"我請部長。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T11:18:10.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:18:10.500000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:18:13.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:18:17.870000+08:00","text":"部長，剛剛許忠信委員用心良苦。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:18:19.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:18:34.360000+08:00","text":"其實你們國防部沒有所謂的買方市場，因為長期以來你們把我們的任何軍事採購都變成賣方市場，我們再有優勢也沒有用，這很可惜。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:18:35.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:18:45.620000+08:00","text":"他剛才說的那個L/C概念很好，當然存入之後，國防部是受益人，後面履約的時候，國防部就不用去當壞人嘛！","quality":0.622},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:18:45.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:18:49+08:00","text":"沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:18:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:18:59.674286+08:00","text":"部長，我請教你，你今天的報告是針對違約的精進作為，現在RDX這個案件的進度如何？","quality":0.472},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:19:00.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:19:07.406667+08:00","text":"我上次問你的時候，我說本來要請召委帶我們去印度場勘，對不對？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:19:11.682222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:19:13.237778+08:00","text":"結果現在這個案件怎麼樣？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:19:14.025714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:19:15.454286+08:00","text":"決標之後，進行得怎麼樣？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:19:16.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:19:24.220000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，關於這個案子，現在福麥公司沒有按照契約於180日曆天取得輸出許可，在7月6日……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:19:27.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:19:29.103333+08:00","text":"等一下，你們那個時候說有喔！","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:19:29.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:19:35.370000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有，合約都是要180天之後取得，才會往下走。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:19:35.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:19:39.770000+08:00","text":"你那個時候跟我說他可以取得，我才會說我們去印度場勘。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:19:45.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:19:50.224444+08:00","text":"這樣等於6個月前你就已經知道他沒辦法，難怪！","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:19:50.891111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:19:57.526667+08:00","text":"他是做裝潢的，在我們臺南，我是去跟多少人探聽才探聽到的。","quality":0.44},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:00.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:01.438571+08:00","text":"現在確定他不行？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:02.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:07.630000+08:00","text":"他在7月6日就超過36天，所以解約，罰四千多萬。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:07.630000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:10.030000+08:00","text":"解約了嗎？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:10.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:10.780000+08:00","text":"目前正在送案。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:12.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:15.780000+08:00","text":"要罰他四千多萬，他沒錢，但是他的押標金有多少？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:16.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:17.783333+08:00","text":"他的押標金……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:20.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:21.223333+08:00","text":"2,500萬的樣子。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:21.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:24.778889+08:00","text":"差不多，因為我這裡的資料沒寫，差不多兩千多萬……","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:25.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:27.640000+08:00","text":"兩千多萬的押標金。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:27.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:29.640000+08:00","text":"同時刊登為不良廠商，還給他停權。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:30.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:41.928571+08:00","text":"停權，他的資本額就一點點，是1人公司，他準備40、50間要給你用，所以你可以再出40、50個標案，他都能吃得下。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:45.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:20:49.490000+08:00","text":"這實在是真的有夠離譜，你知道嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:20:49.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:21:04.760000+08:00","text":"你當時跟我們講很緊張，如果不趕快採購，對我們的建軍備戰會很有影響，讓我們的戰力會嚴重下降。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:21:06.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:21:33.293333+08:00","text":"那個時候講到我對你們的預算都支持，你看我這樣真心換絕情，對你們這麼相挺，你們居然給我「放管」，今天國民黨這些國防委員會的委員都笑我說：你都說不要刪他們的預算，結果你看他們今天這樣，之前跟你講山盟海誓，現在跟你講昨晚不好意思，那張合約不好意思，沒辦法。","quality":0.598},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:21:33.293333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:21:40.750000+08:00","text":"部長，這樣要怎麼辦？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:21:40.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:21:55.358182+08:00","text":"委員關切的這個案子，來源輸出國一旦曝光的話，政治上的壓力會形成，但是無論如何，沒有按照契約來提供輸出許可證明的話……","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:21:55.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:22:03.358182+08:00","text":"部長，當時該保密的，我們都讓你保密，是你們國防部選擇可以公開的部分才公開喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:22:03.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:22:12.540000+08:00","text":"是，我們就是依約來累計相關沒收履約保證金及罰款的作法……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:22:13.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:22:14.740000+08:00","text":"罰款已經通知對方了嗎？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:22:18.147143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:22:22.890000+08:00","text":"按照部權，我們會報到國防採購室，國防採購室就會依合約通知……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:22:22.890000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:22:24.490000+08:00","text":"所以還沒通知嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:22:24.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:22:25.290000+08:00","text":"沒有，很快就會通知他。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:22:25.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:22:33.920000+08:00","text":"他脫產了，他個人現在也沒資產了，父子都沒有了，都處理好了。","quality":0.36},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:22:34.586667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:22:39.520000+08:00","text":"我給你建議，你要去看看當時那個押標金是誰轉給他的。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:22:41.831818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:22:50.528182+08:00","text":"我再請教你一個問題，法務部有沒有單位向你們調這個案子還有硝基胍那個案子的資料？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:22:52.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:23:02.494286+08:00","text":"法務部來查明了，監察院也都來看了，基本上，我們回復整個採購流程是沒有什麼其他的……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:23:02.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:23:04.530000+08:00","text":"流程不會有問題啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:23:05.113333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:23:08.180000+08:00","text":"都來調過了，臺南地檢署也來調過了，我們都依規定回復他們。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:23:08.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:23:19.636667+08:00","text":"我跟大家報告，為什麼他不拿出來源證明？","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:23:21.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:23:29.280000+08:00","text":"因為人家在查了，這筆錢、這塊肉，他吃不下了、吞不下了，趕快「放管」。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:23:33.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:23:49.464444+08:00","text":"各位鄉親，你看我們的建軍案這麼嚴肅，我這樣一路支持他們的預算，現在在查了，我知道在查，地方也有人說有被調問，查了要怎麼樣？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:23:49.686667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:24:05.740000+08:00","text":"因為這個案子如果成案，繼續走下去成交了，後面再來抓，會比較大尾，大尾的就抓到了，所以這叫做斷尾求生，現在趕快斬一斬，趁事情還沒敗露，趕快斬一斬、放棄。","quality":0.523},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:24:10.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:24:12.623333+08:00","text":"這樣吃虧的會變成採購單位，你現在變成「目睭金金人傷重」！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:24:18.531111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:24:35.124615+08:00","text":"你算挺他，這後面是什麼人我不知道，你算挺他，拜託他可以顧其他的國防軍購預算，幫忙一下，而我們不用你挺，就幫你忙，你有沒有要報兩件讓我們「鼻芳」？","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:24:41.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:24:42.996154+08:00","text":"我覺得這實在是很沒意思。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:24:46.008462+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:24:48.316154+08:00","text":"臺南地檢署總共跟你調幾個案件的資料，你知道嗎？","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:24:50.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:24:51.890000+08:00","text":"調幾個案件的資料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:24:54.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:24:54.901905+08:00","text":"這不是機密嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:24:54.901905+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:24:55.901905+08:00","text":"這可以說明嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:24:55.092381+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:24:57.949524+08:00","text":"他只有來調一個RDX而已，其他都沒有。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:24:59.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:25:01.340000+08:00","text":"韓國的火藥也沒有嗎？","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:25:04.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:25:06.316154+08:00","text":"韓國的韓華也是因為曝光解約。","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:25:08.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:25:10.702353+08:00","text":"是因為曝光解約，還是他無法履約而解約？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:25:11.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:25:14.695000+08:00","text":"沒有按照合約取得輸出許可，一律解約，我們沒有去做其他另外的想法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:25:14.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:25:16.695000+08:00","text":"所以你基本上有一個把關的態度嘛！對。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:25:25.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:25:43.524545+08:00","text":"我是要跟部長說，我們知道我們的軍事採購很困難，在國際上算是「啞口壓死囝」，真的就算是買方的市場，也會變成賣方市場，這真的是中華民國的無奈。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:25:45.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:25:59.923333+08:00","text":"但我們支持你，你要給我們一個交代，有時候我們問你，但你動不動就用政治對抗，國民黨這些立委都要叛國、要擋預算，不是這樣啦，不要這樣，你用這種態度我是不能接受的。","quality":0.729},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:26:00.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:26:01.266471+08:00","text":"我問你，國防部的預算，我有擋一毛錢嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:26:01.266471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:26:02.266471+08:00","text":"有凍結一毛錢嗎，有沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:26:02.266471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:26:03.266471+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:26:01.384118+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:26:33.628182+08:00","text":"該給你就給你，你講得那麼危險，臺灣很危險，錢都給你了，結果你看一條一條都「罟起來滴湯」，這是你們業務單位……一而再、再而三，你們採購案辦成這樣，如果我當國防部長，我會記你警告、口頭警告。","quality":0.564},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:26:36.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:26:38.290000+08:00","text":"部長，你會這樣做嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:26:39.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:26:41.404286+08:00","text":"你會不會這樣做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:26:42.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:26:59.533333+08:00","text":"採購案一件一件都開花，當初來立法院報告的時候都說很緊急，會來不及，但是一件一件通通開花，甚至法務單位都介入要調查。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:27:02.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:27:29.555000+08:00","text":"我很誠懇在這裡跟你說，提供一個意見，一些案件不要再挺了，叫他們走正道，找健全的公司，我說的就是針對後面這些無人機產業，臺灣有很多投入無人機產業研發5年、10年、15年以上的公司，我跟你說，如果要做無人機，我也可以做，你知道嗎？","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:27:29.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:27:42.450000+08:00","text":"但是君子要避嫌，因為我知道你們不會給我啊，我做過飛機，你知道嗎？","quality":0.107},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:27:42.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:27:46.868182+08:00","text":"我也做過船，我還做過戰車，你知道嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:27:49.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:27:52.630000+08:00","text":"我40年前就在開玩具工廠了，你知道嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:27:54.416667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:28:12.244286+08:00","text":"如果以現在無人機的組裝，對我來說是毫無困難，但是你們掌握前端的授權，當你決定授權要給誰，變成他拿到了。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:28:12.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:28:36.653333+08:00","text":"我在這裡很正式跟部長說，不要再有這種給一個統包，最後分包到真正做的……沒有幫助到我們整個臺灣原本投入研發生產的這些無人機產業，什麼綠友友、賴友友，誰的友都不重要了，大家要用心為臺灣的國防來打拼啦！","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:28:39.925294+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:28:41.572353+08:00","text":"我知道臺灣投入無人機研發的很多耶！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:28:45.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:29:23.263333+08:00","text":"標案給這些工廠，給這些研發者，我們都支持，不要再找一些新的像裝潢公司的、賣鞋子的，稅籍做線材的，這等於是拿我們的錢當資本、當老闆，然後最上游給他，他下面也是去找真正投入無人機產業研發的這些業者，這樣就枉費所有委員支持你們的預算了，不需要這樣。","quality":0.734},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:29:26.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:29:45.157778+08:00","text":"我是覺得對這些案件、韓國這個案件、福麥這個案件，以及……現在進來的硝基胍純度多少，你有驗了嗎？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:29:46.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:29:50.850000+08:00","text":"我們的合約規範硝基胍就是99，還沒有到，還沒有交貨，交貨期要到11月。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:29:52.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:29:56.064286+08:00","text":"現在他有跟你提，確定會準時交貨嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:29:56.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:29:58.064286+08:00","text":"我們依合約辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:30:00.082222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:30:05.574286+08:00","text":"不要說依合約辦理，你評估現在他準時可以交貨的機率有百分之幾，有沒有六成以上？","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:30:10.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:30:11.010000+08:00","text":"沒辦法？沒有？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:30:11.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:30:15.195000+08:00","text":"沒關係，坦白說，因為差不多外面大家都知道了嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:30:16.653333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:30:19.166154+08:00","text":"委員，我想合約的期限還沒有到之前……","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:30:19.166154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:30:21.820000+08:00","text":"你不方便說啦！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:30:21.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:30:21.820000+08:00","text":"沒關係……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:30:23.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:30:43.337778+08:00","text":"廠商也沒有提到有什麼延誤的情況，我們當然就是依合約來辦理，剛剛軍備局長也說明得很清楚，而我們其他相關武器獲得的規劃跟採購的計畫，我們都會依法來進行相關正常的採購作業程序。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:30:43.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:30:55.393333+08:00","text":"最有利標這個部分，我們也會請部外的委員來進行評選，我想這個都是依法在進行，沒有什麼問題。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:30:55.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:31:02.360000+08:00","text":"好啦，國軍很辛苦，但是立法院幫你把關以外，你們自己要先做第一審的把關，不需要挺這些「阿沙不魯」的人，「沒路用」啦！","quality":0.468},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:31:03.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:31:15.088182+08:00","text":"我也不知道有的還是我們本黨的地下情報人員，擔任本黨的地下情報人員到底要蒐集多少資料，你們才能對他這麼好？","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:31:19.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:31:23.180000+08:00","text":"看到這些報告，我說實在的很鬱悶啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:31:23.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:31:27.973333+08:00","text":"你有感覺到我一路支持你們的預算，對不對？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:31:28.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:31:37.355455+08:00","text":"我沒有像人家說今天要怎樣，明天要怎樣，你們來說明我都很支持，結果你看這個案件！","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:31:37.537273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:31:38.628182+08:00","text":"我為什麼要問你們？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:31:38.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:31:44.447778+08:00","text":"因為調查局有人跟我說，我問他們為什麼不辦案？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:31:45.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:31:56.737778+08:00","text":"甚至資安的茶葉行，他就自己說他是人頭，我問法務部你們為什麼不調問他？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:31:56.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:31:58.293333+08:00","text":"他說：有啊。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:31:55.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:32:02.103333+08:00","text":"所以我今天才會來問你，看他們是不是有來跟你調資料？","quality":0.391},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T11:32:05.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:32:06.780000+08:00","text":"報告委員，目前沒有。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:32:09.679091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:32:11.770000+08:00","text":"他們沒有來跟你調茶葉店嗎？沒有。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-20T11:32:13.133636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:32:23.017778+08:00","text":"因為他是資安的服務，那個案子是一個資安服務，目前正在履約當中，從今年的1月1號到明年的12月31日，目前履約進度是正常。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2026-07-20T11:32:24.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:32:28.636667+08:00","text":"好，那我再來問調查局。謝謝。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T11:32:29.136667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:32:32.850952+08:00","text":"接下來請郭昱晴委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（11時18分）我請部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["謝委員龍介：部長，剛剛許忠信委員用心良苦。其實你們國防部沒有所謂的買方市場，因為長期以來你們把我們的任何軍事採購都變成賣方市場，我們再有優勢也沒有用，這很可惜。他剛才說的那個L/C概念很好，當然存入之後，國防部是受益人，後面履約的時候，國防部就不用去當壞人嘛！","沒關係。部長，我請教你，你今天的報告是針對違約的精進作為，現在RDX這個案件的進度如何？我上次問你的時候，我說本來要請召委帶我們去印度場勘，對不對？結果現在這個案件怎麼樣？決標之後，進行得怎麼樣？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，關於這個案子，現在福麥公司沒有按照契約於180日曆天取得輸出許可，在7月6日……"],["謝委員龍介：等一下，你們那個時候說有喔！"],["林局長文祥：沒有、沒有、沒有，合約都是要180天之後取得，才會往下走。"],["謝委員龍介：你那個時候跟我說他可以取得，我才會說我們去印度場勘。這樣等於6個月前你就已經知道他沒辦法，難怪！他是做裝潢的，在我們臺南，我是去跟多少人探聽才探聽到的。現在確定他不行？"],["林局長文祥：他在7月6日就超過36天，所以解約，罰四千多萬。"],["謝委員龍介：解約了嗎？"],["林局長文祥：目前正在送案。"],["謝委員龍介：要罰他四千多萬，他沒錢，但是他的押標金有多少？"],["林局長文祥：他的押標金……"],["謝委員龍介：2,500萬的樣子。"],["林局長文祥：差不多，因為我這裡的資料沒寫，差不多兩千多萬……"],["謝委員龍介：兩千多萬的押標金。"],["林局長文祥：同時刊登為不良廠商，還給他停權。"],["謝委員龍介：停權，他的資本額就一點點，是1人公司，他準備40、50間要給你用，所以你可以再出40、50個標案，他都能吃得下。","這實在是真的有夠離譜，你知道嗎？你當時跟我們講很緊張，如果不趕快採購，對我們的建軍備戰會很有影響，讓我們的戰力會嚴重下降。那個時候講到我對你們的預算都支持，你看我這樣真心換絕情，對你們這麼相挺，你們居然給我「放管」，今天國民黨這些國防委員會的委員都笑我說：你都說不要刪他們的預算，結果你看他們今天這樣，之前跟你講山盟海誓，現在跟你講昨晚不好意思，那張合約不好意思，沒辦法。部長，這樣要怎麼辦？"],["顧部長立雄：委員關切的這個案子，來源輸出國一旦曝光的話，政治上的壓力會形成，但是無論如何，沒有按照契約來提供輸出許可證明的話……"],["謝委員龍介：部長，當時該保密的，我們都讓你保密，是你們國防部選擇可以公開的部分才公開喔！"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們就是依約來累計相關沒收履約保證金及罰款的作法……"],["謝委員龍介：罰款已經通知對方了嗎？"],["林局長文祥：按照部權，我們會報到國防採購室，國防採購室就會依合約通知……"],["謝委員龍介：所以還沒通知嘛！"],["林局長文祥：沒有，很快就會通知他。"],["謝委員龍介：他脫產了，他個人現在也沒資產了，父子都沒有了，都處理好了。我給你建議，你要去看看當時那個押標金是誰轉給他的。","我再請教你一個問題，法務部有沒有單位向你們調這個案子還有硝基胍那個案子的資料？"],["林局長文祥：法務部來查明了，監察院也都來看了，基本上，我們回復整個採購流程是沒有什麼其他的……"],["謝委員龍介：流程不會有問題啦！"],["林局長文祥：都來調過了，臺南地檢署也來調過了，我們都依規定回復他們。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟大家報告，為什麼他不拿出來源證明？因為人家在查了，這筆錢、這塊肉，他吃不下了、吞不下了，趕快「放管」。","各位鄉親，你看我們的建軍案這麼嚴肅，我這樣一路支持他們的預算，現在在查了，我知道在查，地方也有人說有被調問，查了要怎麼樣？因為這個案子如果成案，繼續走下去成交了，後面再來抓，會比較大尾，大尾的就抓到了，所以這叫做斷尾求生，現在趕快斬一斬，趁事情還沒敗露，趕快斬一斬、放棄。這樣吃虧的會變成採購單位，你現在變成「目睭金金人傷重」！你算挺他，這後面是什麼人我不知道，你算挺他，拜託他可以顧其他的國防軍購預算，幫忙一下，而我們不用你挺，就幫你忙，你有沒有要報兩件讓我們「鼻芳」？我覺得這實在是很沒意思。","臺南地檢署總共跟你調幾個案件的資料，你知道嗎？調幾個案件的資料？這不是機密嘛！這可以說明嘛！"],["林局長文祥：他只有來調一個RDX而已，其他都沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：韓國的火藥也沒有嗎？"],["林局長文祥：韓國的韓華也是因為曝光解約。"],["謝委員龍介：是因為曝光解約，還是他無法履約而解約？"],["林局長文祥：沒有按照合約取得輸出許可，一律解約，我們沒有去做其他另外的想法。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你基本上有一個把關的態度嘛！"],["林局長文祥：對。"],["謝委員龍介：我是要跟部長說，我們知道我們的軍事採購很困難，在國際上算是「啞口壓死囝」，真的就算是買方的市場，也會變成賣方市場，這真的是中華民國的無奈。但我們支持你，你要給我們一個交代，有時候我們問你，但你動不動就用政治對抗，國民黨這些立委都要叛國、要擋預算，不是這樣啦，不要這樣，你用這種態度我是不能接受的。我問你，國防部的預算，我有擋一毛錢嗎？有凍結一毛錢嗎，有沒有？對不對？該給你就給你，你講得那麼危險，臺灣很危險，錢都給你了，結果你看一條一條都「罟起來滴湯」，這是你們業務單位……一而再、再而三，你們採購案辦成這樣，如果我當國防部長，我會記你警告、口頭警告。部長，你會這樣做嗎？你會不會這樣做？採購案一件一件都開花，當初來立法院報告的時候都說很緊急，會來不及，但是一件一件通通開花，甚至法務單位都介入要調查。","我很誠懇在這裡跟你說，提供一個意見，一些案件不要再挺了，叫他們走正道，找健全的公司，我說的就是針對後面這些無人機產業，臺灣有很多投入無人機產業研發5年、10年、15年以上的公司，我跟你說，如果要做無人機，我也可以做，你知道嗎？但是君子要避嫌，因為我知道你們不會給我啊，我做過飛機，你知道嗎？我也做過船，我還做過戰車，你知道嗎？我40年前就在開玩具工廠了，你知道嗎？如果以現在無人機的組裝，對我來說是毫無困難，但是你們掌握前端的授權，當你決定授權要給誰，變成他拿到了。","我在這裡很正式跟部長說，不要再有這種給一個統包，最後分包到真正做的……沒有幫助到我們整個臺灣原本投入研發生產的這些無人機產業，什麼綠友友、賴友友，誰的友都不重要了，大家要用心為臺灣的國防來打拼啦！我知道臺灣投入無人機研發的很多耶！標案給這些工廠，給這些研發者，我們都支持，不要再找一些新的像裝潢公司的、賣鞋子的，稅籍做線材的，這等於是拿我們的錢當資本、當老闆，然後最上游給他，他下面也是去找真正投入無人機產業研發的這些業者，這樣就枉費所有委員支持你們的預算了，不需要這樣。我是覺得對這些案件、韓國這個案件、福麥這個案件，以及……現在進來的硝基胍純度多少，你有驗了嗎？"],["林局長文祥：我們的合約規範硝基胍就是99，還沒有到，還沒有交貨，交貨期要到11月。"],["謝委員龍介：現在他有跟你提，確定會準時交貨嗎？"],["林局長文祥：我們依合約辦理。"],["謝委員龍介：不要說依合約辦理，你評估現在他準時可以交貨的機率有百分之幾，有沒有六成以上？沒辦法？沒有？沒關係，坦白說，因為差不多外面大家都知道了嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我想合約的期限還沒有到之前……"],["謝委員龍介：你不方便說啦！沒關係……"],["顧部長立雄：廠商也沒有提到有什麼延誤的情況，我們當然就是依合約來辦理，剛剛軍備局長也說明得很清楚，而我們其他相關武器獲得的規劃跟採購的計畫，我們都會依法來進行相關正常的採購作業程序。最有利標這個部分，我們也會請部外的委員來進行評選，我想這個都是依法在進行，沒有什麼問題。"],["謝委員龍介：好啦，國軍很辛苦，但是立法院幫你把關以外，你們自己要先做第一審的把關，不需要挺這些「阿沙不魯」的人，「沒路用」啦！我也不知道有的還是我們本黨的地下情報人員，擔任本黨的地下情報人員到底要蒐集多少資料，你們才能對他這麼好？看到這些報告，我說實在的很鬱悶啦！你有感覺到我一路支持你們的預算，對不對？我沒有像人家說今天要怎樣，明天要怎樣，你們來說明我都很支持，結果你看這個案件！我為什麼要問你們？因為調查局有人跟我說，我問他們為什麼不辦案？甚至資安的茶葉行，他就自己說他是人頭，我問法務部你們為什麼不調問他？他說：有啊。所以我今天才會來問你，看他們是不是有來跟你調資料？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，目前沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：他們沒有來跟你調茶葉店嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：沒有。因為他是資安的服務，那個案子是一個資安服務，目前正在履約當中，從今年的1月1號到明年的12月31日，目前履約進度是正常。"],["謝委員龍介：好，那我再來問調查局。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請郭昱晴委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-27","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","牛煦庭","王義川","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","王安祥","黃建賓","許忠信","謝龍介","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","洪毓祥","賴士葆","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","葉元之","陳冠廷","黃仁","王定宇"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2026-07-20"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍軍品採購履約爭議與違約致獲裝期程延宕採購策略精進作\n為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156401_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}