{"error":false,"id":["170593"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170593,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170593","日期":"2026-07-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-27","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":27,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-20T11:32:49+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-20T11:40:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:37","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/09ae2675330bc1e596ec2fa8d9978bf0462d4557d658398c4ecbf2277d917873f330b95b4a3246f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:32:49 - 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謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":3.14,"end":4.140000000000001,"text":"請顧部長"},{"start":13.01,"end":14.01,"text":"是 郭委員好"},{"start":14.01,"end":19.61,"text":"好 部長好 我想首先先肯定國防部願意來正視這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":19.61,"end":23.810000000000002,"text":"那麼包含我們的關鍵零組件的一個供應鏈"},{"start":23.810000000000002,"end":30.009999999999998,"text":"還有這個風險跟中斷 還有這個廠商履約能力不足這樣子的一個"},{"start":30.009999999999998,"end":35.01,"text":"實務上碰到的一些困境 來提供這個改善的一個措施"},{"start":35.01,"end":42.01,"text":"那但是我想要就以下三個問題再來請教一下這個部長"},{"start":42.01,"end":47.309999999999995,"text":"那我想部長 其實在報告當中有特別提到要建立這個替代的來源"},{"start":47.309999999999995,"end":50.01,"text":"跟第二的供應的一個來源"},{"start":50.01,"end":53.01,"text":"那但是我還是要提醒一下這個國防部"},{"start":53.01,"end":58.41,"text":"就是我們在推動所謂的複數得標 這樣子的一個制度其實已經很多年了"},{"start":58.41,"end":63.61,"text":"那原本的目的其實就是要希望透過多加的一個廠商的供應"},{"start":63.61,"end":67.00999999999999,"text":"那麼來降低所謂的單一的來源"},{"start":67.01,"end":72.01,"text":"那有可能會所謂的這個中間斷鏈的這樣的一個風險"},{"start":72.01,"end":76.61,"text":"但是其實從這個你們的專案報告上面來看"},{"start":76.61,"end":84.21000000000001,"text":"這個關鍵零組件的中斷 仍然是所謂的這個採購延宕的一個重要的一個非常重要的一個因素"},{"start":84.21000000000001,"end":87.81,"text":"那但是在實務上有沒有可能會出現一種狀況"},{"start":87.81,"end":93.81,"text":"就是說表面上也許是兩家或者是多家的這個廠商"},{"start":93.81,"end":98.61,"text":"但是他們的背後仍然是同一個外國的原廠"},{"start":98.61,"end":101.31,"text":"或者是同一個所謂的技術的一個核心"},{"start":101.31,"end":103.81,"text":"或者是同一個所謂的這個供應鏈"},{"start":103.81,"end":105.21000000000001,"text":"有沒有這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":105.21000000000001,"end":107.61,"text":"那我們因為這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":107.61,"end":111.41,"text":"有沒有其他的一些更進一步的一個因應的措施"},{"start":112.67999999999999,"end":114.08,"text":"跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":114.08,"end":118.08,"text":"因為每一個購案他的狀況都不同"},{"start":118.08,"end":124.38,"text":"如果說我們您講的是指說我們限制一定要在自主能夠生產的話"},{"start":124.94,"end":129.34,"text":"比如說我們這一次要招標的這些幾款的無人機跟無人艇"},{"start":129.34,"end":133.74,"text":"那我們就會在他製作樣機的過程當中"},{"start":133.74,"end":135.24,"text":"我們會去做一個防場"},{"start":135.24,"end":143.54,"text":"來確定他確實是在本土裡面製作無人機相關的這些所需要的"},{"start":143.54,"end":148.14,"text":"不管是硬體的或者是相關的軟體的部分"},{"start":148.14,"end":150.54,"text":"我想我為什麼會特別提到這點"},{"start":150.54,"end":152.34,"text":"當然我們是希望就是說"},{"start":152.34,"end":156.14,"text":"我們應該國防部要比較更精準的去掌握"},{"start":156.14,"end":159.34,"text":"掌握哪一些包含所謂的上游的供應鏈"},{"start":159.34,"end":162.73999999999998,"text":"那麼包含所謂的零組件的一個來源"},{"start":162.73999999999998,"end":164.34,"text":"然後核心的一個技術來源"},{"start":164.34,"end":166.64,"text":"還有所謂的替代的一個能力"},{"start":166.64,"end":169.04,"text":"不然其實我們剛剛所提到的"},{"start":169.04,"end":171.73999999999998,"text":"避免形式上的所謂的這個附屬的供應"},{"start":171.73999999999998,"end":176.94,"text":"但實質上其實有可能還是會產生所謂的這個鍛鍊的一個風險"},{"start":176.94,"end":179.24,"text":"所以我們要怎麼樣來加強這個部分"},{"start":179.24,"end":181.04,"text":"來提高我們的這個韌性"},{"start":181.04,"end":184.44,"text":"其實是我想要點出來的一個主要的一個問題"},{"start":184.44,"end":187.04,"text":"是 我想我們商情的訪查"},{"start":187.04,"end":193.04,"text":"他們這個廠商的這個產能的一個現況"},{"start":193.04,"end":195.84,"text":"那我們國防部以外"},{"start":195.84,"end":197.94,"text":"我們會跟經濟部來合作"},{"start":197.94,"end":200.14,"text":"那我們也會跟其他相關的單位"},{"start":200.14,"end":202.24,"text":"包括像公園院等等"},{"start":202.24,"end":205.04,"text":"來多了解產業界的一個狀況"},{"start":205.14,"end":208.14,"text":"好 我想這是需要非常精準的一個掌握"},{"start":208.14,"end":209.94,"text":"這個不是只有全面的了解"},{"start":209.94,"end":211.34,"text":"概括性的了解而已"},{"start":211.34,"end":212.94,"text":"好 那因為今天時間關係好"},{"start":212.94,"end":214.23999999999998,"text":"然後再來第二個問題"},{"start":214.23999999999998,"end":217.14,"text":"我想在面對我們一些不同類型的"},{"start":217.14,"end":218.84,"text":"履歷上的一個困難"},{"start":218.84,"end":222.04,"text":"那我想我們除了剛剛報告上面"},{"start":222.04,"end":224.34,"text":"有特別提到說要加強高風險"},{"start":224.34,"end":228.94,"text":"案件復廠審核這樣子的一個機制"},{"start":228.94,"end":230.84,"text":"但是我還是要提醒"},{"start":230.84,"end":234.44,"text":"因為有一些是因為廠商管理的問題"},{"start":234.44,"end":236.44,"text":"他們自己本身廠商管理的問題"},{"start":236.44,"end":239.74,"text":"那有一些其實是資金周轉的一個問題"},{"start":239.74,"end":240.84,"text":"那我舉例來講"},{"start":240.84,"end":243.44,"text":"像其實2014年這個"},{"start":243.44,"end":245.54,"text":"煉雷艦的一個資金的問題"},{"start":245.54,"end":247.54,"text":"其實當初其實有這樣子一個狀況"},{"start":247.54,"end":248.74,"text":"有的是廠商內部"},{"start":248.74,"end":250.24,"text":"有的是所謂資金問題"},{"start":250.24,"end":252.84,"text":"有的是所謂的這個零組件的供應中斷"},{"start":252.84,"end":255.94,"text":"那有的是國外原廠的出口的一個限制"},{"start":255.94,"end":257.54,"text":"或者是碰到一些"},{"start":257.54,"end":259.44,"text":"所謂的技術上的瓶頸也好"},{"start":259.44,"end":261.84,"text":"或人力上的一個不足"},{"start":261.84,"end":263.64,"text":"其實每一種問題"},{"start":263.64,"end":265.64,"text":"如果只採同一種方式"},{"start":265.64,"end":267.64,"text":"去經過所謂的查核啦"},{"start":267.64,"end":268.64,"text":"催辦啦"},{"start":268.64,"end":270.64,"text":"其實未必能夠真正解決"},{"start":270.64,"end":272.64,"text":"所謂的他履約的一個障礙"},{"start":272.64,"end":274.64,"text":"這一點我想部長應該同意吧"},{"start":276.41,"end":278.41,"text":"是 我想"},{"start":278.41,"end":280.41,"text":"任何在履約的過程當中"},{"start":280.41,"end":282.41,"text":"都還是會有一些風險"},{"start":282.41,"end":284.41,"text":"但是要將這個"},{"start":284.71,"end":285.71,"text":"最後總是"},{"start":285.71,"end":289.71,"text":"除了在這個履約過程當中的一個履約管理之外"},{"start":289.71,"end":293.71,"text":"那個驗收的一個相關的完善"},{"start":293.71,"end":297.71,"text":"來確保這個最後裝備的一個交互"},{"start":297.71,"end":299.71,"text":"合乎我們的規格"},{"start":299.71,"end":300.71,"text":"提供給部長就是說"},{"start":300.71,"end":303.71,"text":"我們因應不同的一個類型的問題"},{"start":303.71,"end":306.71,"text":"我們應該要採取不同的一個措施啦"},{"start":306.71,"end":309.71,"text":"就是說我們不能同一種標準去衡量"},{"start":309.71,"end":311.71,"text":"因為剛剛我所提到的"},{"start":311.71,"end":313.71,"text":"不管人力也好或者是技術上也好"},{"start":313.71,"end":314.71,"text":"或是他自己內部的問題"},{"start":314.71,"end":316.71,"text":"甚至他資金的一個周轉的問題"},{"start":316.71,"end":318.71,"text":"所以其實要因應他不同的問題"},{"start":318.71,"end":320.71,"text":"然後去反應"},{"start":320.71,"end":323.71,"text":"然後來做這樣子的一個輔導上的一個解決啦"},{"start":323.71,"end":324.71,"text":"好嗎"},{"start":324.71,"end":328.71,"text":"對 因為確實我們有各種不同的裝備的需求"},{"start":328.71,"end":330.71,"text":"那不同性質的需求"},{"start":330.71,"end":333.71,"text":"也會面臨不同的一個困難"},{"start":333.71,"end":336.71,"text":"像剛剛前一位委員提到了這些相關的這些"},{"start":336.71,"end":338.71,"text":"火藥原物料的這些供應"},{"start":338.71,"end":342.71,"text":"那這些也確實會涉及到這個"},{"start":342.71,"end":344.71,"text":"對"},{"start":343.81,"end":347.81,"text":"要拿到出去可是涉及到國際政治上面的一些相關的因素"},{"start":347.81,"end":353.81,"text":"那我們必須要將所有的可能都放在我們的考慮範圍之內"},{"start":353.81,"end":356.81,"text":"那如果說沒有辦法做到"},{"start":356.81,"end":358.81,"text":"我們就是依合約來執行這樣子"},{"start":358.81,"end":361.81,"text":"好 那部長其實我們看到這個報告當中"},{"start":361.81,"end":363.81,"text":"其實也特別提到說"},{"start":363.81,"end":366.81,"text":"要分階段來做這個檢驗的一個制度"},{"start":366.81,"end":369.81,"text":"那要來支持提早發現問題"},{"start":369.81,"end":371.81,"text":"提早改善的一個方向"},{"start":371.81,"end":373.81,"text":"那這個是一個比較大的方向"},{"start":373.81,"end":375.81,"text":"不過我還是要提醒就是說"},{"start":375.81,"end":378.81,"text":"如果我們的這個文文部跟廠商之間"},{"start":378.81,"end":380.81,"text":"對於所謂的技術的規範"},{"start":380.81,"end":382.81,"text":"或者是驗收的一個標準"},{"start":382.81,"end":386.81,"text":"還有就文件上要求如果沒有一次的一個認知"},{"start":386.81,"end":388.81,"text":"這個分階段的檢驗"},{"start":388.81,"end":392.81,"text":"有可能原本是希望它能夠加速所謂的這個進程"},{"start":392.81,"end":395.81,"text":"但是有沒有可能在每一個階段"},{"start":395.81,"end":398.81,"text":"我都要反覆的去補件重新的確認"},{"start":398.81,"end":400.81,"text":"反而造成了真實的一個延宕"},{"start":400.81,"end":402.81,"text":"有沒有可能會有這種狀況產生"},{"start":402.81,"end":407.81,"text":"我想我們用實際的那個"},{"start":408.57,"end":411.57,"text":"這個能力上面來管控"},{"start":411.57,"end":416.57,"text":"並不會要求它過多的這些文件上面的一個需求"},{"start":416.57,"end":418.57,"text":"而反而是應該實質的查驗"},{"start":418.57,"end":421.57,"text":"包括這個在房場的階段"},{"start":422.28,"end":425.28,"text":"還有它提供的這些樣機等等的"},{"start":425.28,"end":428.28,"text":"我想這個是我們主要關注的一個重點"},{"start":428.28,"end":431.28,"text":"我給您一個方向就是說"},{"start":431.28,"end":434.28,"text":"我們是不是可以把所謂的單純的驗收的把端"},{"start":434.28,"end":437.28,"text":"把它轉變成所謂的履約的輔導"},{"start":437.28,"end":440.28,"text":"然後在整個所有輔導的過程當中"},{"start":440.28,"end":443.28,"text":"去協助廠商可能降低錯誤跟延誤"},{"start":443.28,"end":445.28,"text":"那針對每一個部分"},{"start":445.28,"end":448.28,"text":"就不會再一直重複我剛剛所提到的這些問題"},{"start":448.28,"end":450.28,"text":"反而造成真實的一個延宕"},{"start":450.28,"end":454.28,"text":"您的意見是我們應該要做的"},{"start":454.28,"end":456.28,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":456.28,"end":458.28,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:32:49.828889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:32:51.851111+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T11:32:52.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:32:52.890000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:33:02.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:33:02.810000+08:00","text":"郭委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:33:03.217407+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:33:03.632222+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:33:04.254444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:33:23.782727+08:00","text":"首先先肯定國防部願意來正視這樣一個問題，包含我們關鍵零組件的供應鏈，還有風險跟中斷，還有廠商履約能力不足等實務上碰到的一些困境，來提供改善的措施。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:33:24.314348+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:34:00.782727+08:00","text":"但是我想要就以下三個問題再來請教一下部長，部長其實在報告當中有特別提到要建立替代的來源跟第二供應的來源，但我還是要提醒國防部，我們在推動複數決標的制度其實已經很多年，原本的目的其實就是希望透過多家廠商的供應來降低單一的來源，避免可能會有中間斷鏈這樣的風險。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:34:01.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:34:34.082727+08:00","text":"但是，從你們的專案報告上面來看，關鍵零組件的中斷，仍然是採購延宕一個非常重要的因素，但是在實務上有沒有可能會出現一種狀況，表面上也許是兩家，或者是多家的廠商，但是他們的背後仍然是同一個外國的原廠，或者是同一個技術核心，或者是同一個供應鏈，有沒有這樣子的狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:34:34.763846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:34:40.220000+08:00","text":"因為這樣子的狀況，我們有沒有其他更進一步因應的措施？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:34:41.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:35:16.869412+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為每一個構案的狀況都不同，如果您講的是指我們限制一定要能夠自主生產的話，譬如我們這次要招標的這幾款無人機跟無人艇，我們就會在他製作樣機的過程當中進行訪廠，來確定他確實是在本土裡面製作無人機，這些所需要的不管是相關的硬體或者是軟體的部分。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:35:17.509231+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:35:19.355385+08:00","text":"我為什麼會特別提到這點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:35:19.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:35:35.448333+08:00","text":"當然我們希望國防部應該更精準地去掌握，包含所謂的上游供應鏈、零組件的來源及核心技術來源，還有替代的能力。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:35:35.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:35:45.740000+08:00","text":"不然我們剛剛所提到的避免形式上所謂複數供應，但實質上有可能還是會產生斷鏈的一個風險。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:35:45.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:35:53.261053+08:00","text":"所以我們要怎麼樣來加強這個部分來提高我們的韌性，是我想要點出來主要的一個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:35:54.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:36:13.806667+08:00","text":"我們商情的訪查，關於廠商的產能現況，除了國防部以外，我們會跟經濟部來合作，我們也會跟其他相關的單位，包括像工研院等等，來多了解產業界的狀況。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:36:14.327500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:36:20.165000+08:00","text":"我想這需要非常精準的掌握，這個不是只有全面的了解、概括性的了解而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:36:20.630909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:36:23.095556+08:00","text":"因為今天時間關係，再來第二個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:36:23.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:36:48.533750+08:00","text":"我想在面對一些不同類型的履約上之困難，剛剛報告上面有特別提到要加強高風險案件赴廠審核這樣子的機制，但是我還是要提醒，因為有一些是因為廠商管理的問題，他們自己本身廠商管理的問題，那有一些其實是資金周轉的問題。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:36:48.923333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:37:10.573333+08:00","text":"我舉例來講，像2014年獵雷艦的資金問題，其實當初有這樣的狀況，有的是廠商內部，有的是資金問題，有的是零組件供應中斷，有的是國外原廠的出口限制，或者是碰到一些技術上的瓶頸也好，或人力上的不足。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:37:11.354286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:37:25.410000+08:00","text":"每一種問題如果只採同一種方式去經過查核、催辦，其實未必能夠真正解決履約的障礙，這一點我想部長應該同意吧？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:37:26.076667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:37:48.424286+08:00","text":"我想任何在履約的過程當中都還是會有一些風險，但是要將這一個……最後總是除了在這個履約過程當中的履約管理之外，驗收相關的完善來確保最後裝備的交付合乎我們的規格要求……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:37:48.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:37:55.510000+08:00","text":"所以提供給部長，我們因應不同類型的問題，應該要採取不同的措施啦！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:37:56.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:38:05.556154+08:00","text":"我們不能同一種標準去衡量，因為剛剛我所提到不管是人力也好，或者技術上也好，或是他自己內部問題，甚至他資金周轉的問題。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2026-07-20T11:38:05.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:38:13.210000+08:00","text":"所以要因應他不同的問題，然後去反應，再來做這樣子輔導上的一個解決，好嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:38:13.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:38:22.437273+08:00","text":"對，因為確實我們有各種不同的裝備需求，不同性質的需求也會面臨不同的困難。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:38:22.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:38:36.643333+08:00","text":"像剛剛前一位委員提到這些相關的火藥原物料供應，這些也確實會涉及到要拿到輸出許可證明，涉及到國際政治上面的一些相關因素。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:38:37.06000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