{"error":false,"id":["170593"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170593,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170593","日期":"2026-07-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-27","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":27,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-20T11:32:49+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-20T11:40:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:37","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/09ae2675330bc1e596ec2fa8d9978bf0462d4557d658398c4ecbf2277d917873f330b95b4a3246f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:32:49 - 11:40:26","會議時間":"2026-07-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍軍品採購履約爭議與違約致獲裝期程延宕採購策略精進作為」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":4.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.902218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.121593750000002,"end":27.824093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.07721875,"end":29.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.102218750000002,"end":34.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.02971875,"end":35.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.32909375,"end":49.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.048468750000005,"end":63.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.565343750000004,"end":71.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.93534375,"end":111.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.87846875000001,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.91221875000001,"end":113.80221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.74596875,"end":124.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.93971875000001,"end":138.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.47346875,"end":145.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.45971875,"end":148.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.40471875,"end":146.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.15971875,"end":162.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.18284375000002,"end":184.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":194.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.29596875000001,"end":205.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.29846875,"end":275.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.43721875,"end":208.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.40971875,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.71221875000003,"end":300.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.00534375,"end":324.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.48659375,"end":342.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.39784375,"end":325.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.80846875000003,"end":359.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.48534375,"end":402.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.20846875,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.57471875000005,"end":421.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.27721875000003,"end":428.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.48721875,"end":428.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.75721875000005,"end":451.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.23096875000005,"end":455.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.55909375000005,"end":454.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.96409375,"end":457.57971875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.54,"end":3.14,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":3.14,"end":4.140000000000001,"text":"請顧部長"},{"start":13.01,"end":14.01,"text":"是 郭委員好"},{"start":14.01,"end":19.61,"text":"好 部長好 我想首先先肯定國防部願意來正視這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":19.61,"end":23.810000000000002,"text":"那麼包含我們的關鍵零組件的一個供應鏈"},{"start":23.810000000000002,"end":30.009999999999998,"text":"還有這個風險跟中斷 還有這個廠商履約能力不足這樣子的一個"},{"start":30.009999999999998,"end":35.01,"text":"實務上碰到的一些困境 來提供這個改善的一個措施"},{"start":35.01,"end":42.01,"text":"那但是我想要就以下三個問題再來請教一下這個部長"},{"start":42.01,"end":47.309999999999995,"text":"那我想部長 其實在報告當中有特別提到要建立這個替代的來源"},{"start":47.309999999999995,"end":50.01,"text":"跟第二的供應的一個來源"},{"start":50.01,"end":53.01,"text":"那但是我還是要提醒一下這個國防部"},{"start":53.01,"end":58.41,"text":"就是我們在推動所謂的複數得標 這樣子的一個制度其實已經很多年了"},{"start":58.41,"end":63.61,"text":"那原本的目的其實就是要希望透過多加的一個廠商的供應"},{"start":63.61,"end":67.00999999999999,"text":"那麼來降低所謂的單一的來源"},{"start":67.01,"end":72.01,"text":"那有可能會所謂的這個中間斷鏈的這樣的一個風險"},{"start":72.01,"end":76.61,"text":"但是其實從這個你們的專案報告上面來看"},{"start":76.61,"end":84.21000000000001,"text":"這個關鍵零組件的中斷 仍然是所謂的這個採購延宕的一個重要的一個非常重要的一個因素"},{"start":84.21000000000001,"end":87.81,"text":"那但是在實務上有沒有可能會出現一種狀況"},{"start":87.81,"end":93.81,"text":"就是說表面上也許是兩家或者是多家的這個廠商"},{"start":93.81,"end":98.61,"text":"但是他們的背後仍然是同一個外國的原廠"},{"start":98.61,"end":101.31,"text":"或者是同一個所謂的技術的一個核心"},{"start":101.31,"end":103.81,"text":"或者是同一個所謂的這個供應鏈"},{"start":103.81,"end":105.21000000000001,"text":"有沒有這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":105.21000000000001,"end":107.61,"text":"那我們因為這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":107.61,"end":111.41,"text":"有沒有其他的一些更進一步的一個因應的措施"},{"start":112.67999999999999,"end":114.08,"text":"跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":114.08,"end":118.08,"text":"因為每一個購案他的狀況都不同"},{"start":118.08,"end":124.38,"text":"如果說我們您講的是指說我們限制一定要在自主能夠生產的話"},{"start":124.94,"end":129.34,"text":"比如說我們這一次要招標的這些幾款的無人機跟無人艇"},{"start":129.34,"end":133.74,"text":"那我們就會在他製作樣機的過程當中"},{"start":133.74,"end":135.24,"text":"我們會去做一個防場"},{"start":135.24,"end":143.54,"text":"來確定他確實是在本土裡面製作無人機相關的這些所需要的"},{"start":143.54,"end":148.14,"text":"不管是硬體的或者是相關的軟體的部分"},{"start":148.14,"end":150.54,"text":"我想我為什麼會特別提到這點"},{"start":150.54,"end":152.34,"text":"當然我們是希望就是說"},{"start":152.34,"end":156.14,"text":"我們應該國防部要比較更精準的去掌握"},{"start":156.14,"end":159.34,"text":"掌握哪一些包含所謂的上游的供應鏈"},{"start":159.34,"end":162.73999999999998,"text":"那麼包含所謂的零組件的一個來源"},{"start":162.73999999999998,"end":164.34,"text":"然後核心的一個技術來源"},{"start":164.34,"end":166.64,"text":"還有所謂的替代的一個能力"},{"start":166.64,"end":169.04,"text":"不然其實我們剛剛所提到的"},{"start":169.04,"end":171.73999999999998,"text":"避免形式上的所謂的這個附屬的供應"},{"start":171.73999999999998,"end":176.94,"text":"但實質上其實有可能還是會產生所謂的這個鍛鍊的一個風險"},{"start":176.94,"end":179.24,"text":"所以我們要怎麼樣來加強這個部分"},{"start":179.24,"end":181.04,"text":"來提高我們的這個韌性"},{"start":181.04,"end":184.44,"text":"其實是我想要點出來的一個主要的一個問題"},{"start":184.44,"end":187.04,"text":"是 我想我們商情的訪查"},{"start":187.04,"end":193.04,"text":"他們這個廠商的這個產能的一個現況"},{"start":193.04,"end":195.84,"text":"那我們國防部以外"},{"start":195.84,"end":197.94,"text":"我們會跟經濟部來合作"},{"start":197.94,"end":200.14,"text":"那我們也會跟其他相關的單位"},{"start":200.14,"end":202.24,"text":"包括像公園院等等"},{"start":202.24,"end":205.04,"text":"來多了解產業界的一個狀況"},{"start":205.14,"end":208.14,"text":"好 我想這是需要非常精準的一個掌握"},{"start":208.14,"end":209.94,"text":"這個不是只有全面的了解"},{"start":209.94,"end":211.34,"text":"概括性的了解而已"},{"start":211.34,"end":212.94,"text":"好 那因為今天時間關係好"},{"start":212.94,"end":214.23999999999998,"text":"然後再來第二個問題"},{"start":214.23999999999998,"end":217.14,"text":"我想在面對我們一些不同類型的"},{"start":217.14,"end":218.84,"text":"履歷上的一個困難"},{"start":218.84,"end":222.04,"text":"那我想我們除了剛剛報告上面"},{"start":222.04,"end":224.34,"text":"有特別提到說要加強高風險"},{"start":224.34,"end":228.94,"text":"案件復廠審核這樣子的一個機制"},{"start":228.94,"end":230.84,"text":"但是我還是要提醒"},{"start":230.84,"end":234.44,"text":"因為有一些是因為廠商管理的問題"},{"start":234.44,"end":236.44,"text":"他們自己本身廠商管理的問題"},{"start":236.44,"end":239.74,"text":"那有一些其實是資金周轉的一個問題"},{"start":239.74,"end":240.84,"text":"那我舉例來講"},{"start":240.84,"end":243.44,"text":"像其實2014年這個"},{"start":243.44,"end":245.54,"text":"煉雷艦的一個資金的問題"},{"start":245.54,"end":247.54,"text":"其實當初其實有這樣子一個狀況"},{"start":247.54,"end":248.74,"text":"有的是廠商內部"},{"start":248.74,"end":250.24,"text":"有的是所謂資金問題"},{"start":250.24,"end":252.84,"text":"有的是所謂的這個零組件的供應中斷"},{"start":252.84,"end":255.94,"text":"那有的是國外原廠的出口的一個限制"},{"start":255.94,"end":257.54,"text":"或者是碰到一些"},{"start":257.54,"end":259.44,"text":"所謂的技術上的瓶頸也好"},{"start":259.44,"end":261.84,"text":"或人力上的一個不足"},{"start":261.84,"end":263.64,"text":"其實每一種問題"},{"start":263.64,"end":265.64,"text":"如果只採同一種方式"},{"start":265.64,"end":267.64,"text":"去經過所謂的查核啦"},{"start":267.64,"end":268.64,"text":"催辦啦"},{"start":268.64,"end":270.64,"text":"其實未必能夠真正解決"},{"start":270.64,"end":272.64,"text":"所謂的他履約的一個障礙"},{"start":272.64,"end":274.64,"text":"這一點我想部長應該同意吧"},{"start":276.41,"end":278.41,"text":"是 我想"},{"start":278.41,"end":280.41,"text":"任何在履約的過程當中"},{"start":280.41,"end":282.41,"text":"都還是會有一些風險"},{"start":282.41,"end":284.41,"text":"但是要將這個"},{"start":284.71,"end":285.71,"text":"最後總是"},{"start":285.71,"end":289.71,"text":"除了在這個履約過程當中的一個履約管理之外"},{"start":289.71,"end":293.71,"text":"那個驗收的一個相關的完善"},{"start":293.71,"end":297.71,"text":"來確保這個最後裝備的一個交互"},{"start":297.71,"end":299.71,"text":"合乎我們的規格"},{"start":299.71,"end":300.71,"text":"提供給部長就是說"},{"start":300.71,"end":303.71,"text":"我們因應不同的一個類型的問題"},{"start":303.71,"end":306.71,"text":"我們應該要採取不同的一個措施啦"},{"start":306.71,"end":309.71,"text":"就是說我們不能同一種標準去衡量"},{"start":309.71,"end":311.71,"text":"因為剛剛我所提到的"},{"start":311.71,"end":313.71,"text":"不管人力也好或者是技術上也好"},{"start":313.71,"end":314.71,"text":"或是他自己內部的問題"},{"start":314.71,"end":316.71,"text":"甚至他資金的一個周轉的問題"},{"start":316.71,"end":318.71,"text":"所以其實要因應他不同的問題"},{"start":318.71,"end":320.71,"text":"然後去反應"},{"start":320.71,"end":323.71,"text":"然後來做這樣子的一個輔導上的一個解決啦"},{"start":323.71,"end":324.71,"text":"好嗎"},{"start":324.71,"end":328.71,"text":"對 因為確實我們有各種不同的裝備的需求"},{"start":328.71,"end":330.71,"text":"那不同性質的需求"},{"start":330.71,"end":333.71,"text":"也會面臨不同的一個困難"},{"start":333.71,"end":336.71,"text":"像剛剛前一位委員提到了這些相關的這些"},{"start":336.71,"end":338.71,"text":"火藥原物料的這些供應"},{"start":338.71,"end":342.71,"text":"那這些也確實會涉及到這個"},{"start":342.71,"end":344.71,"text":"對"},{"start":343.81,"end":347.81,"text":"要拿到出去可是涉及到國際政治上面的一些相關的因素"},{"start":347.81,"end":353.81,"text":"那我們必須要將所有的可能都放在我們的考慮範圍之內"},{"start":353.81,"end":356.81,"text":"那如果說沒有辦法做到"},{"start":356.81,"end":358.81,"text":"我們就是依合約來執行這樣子"},{"start":358.81,"end":361.81,"text":"好 那部長其實我們看到這個報告當中"},{"start":361.81,"end":363.81,"text":"其實也特別提到說"},{"start":363.81,"end":366.81,"text":"要分階段來做這個檢驗的一個制度"},{"start":366.81,"end":369.81,"text":"那要來支持提早發現問題"},{"start":369.81,"end":371.81,"text":"提早改善的一個方向"},{"start":371.81,"end":373.81,"text":"那這個是一個比較大的方向"},{"start":373.81,"end":375.81,"text":"不過我還是要提醒就是說"},{"start":375.81,"end":378.81,"text":"如果我們的這個文文部跟廠商之間"},{"start":378.81,"end":380.81,"text":"對於所謂的技術的規範"},{"start":380.81,"end":382.81,"text":"或者是驗收的一個標準"},{"start":382.81,"end":386.81,"text":"還有就文件上要求如果沒有一次的一個認知"},{"start":386.81,"end":388.81,"text":"這個分階段的檢驗"},{"start":388.81,"end":392.81,"text":"有可能原本是希望它能夠加速所謂的這個進程"},{"start":392.81,"end":395.81,"text":"但是有沒有可能在每一個階段"},{"start":395.81,"end":398.81,"text":"我都要反覆的去補件重新的確認"},{"start":398.81,"end":400.81,"text":"反而造成了真實的一個延宕"},{"start":400.81,"end":402.81,"text":"有沒有可能會有這種狀況產生"},{"start":402.81,"end":407.81,"text":"我想我們用實際的那個"},{"start":408.57,"end":411.57,"text":"這個能力上面來管控"},{"start":411.57,"end":416.57,"text":"並不會要求它過多的這些文件上面的一個需求"},{"start":416.57,"end":418.57,"text":"而反而是應該實質的查驗"},{"start":418.57,"end":421.57,"text":"包括這個在房場的階段"},{"start":422.28,"end":425.28,"text":"還有它提供的這些樣機等等的"},{"start":425.28,"end":428.28,"text":"我想這個是我們主要關注的一個重點"},{"start":428.28,"end":431.28,"text":"我給您一個方向就是說"},{"start":431.28,"end":434.28,"text":"我們是不是可以把所謂的單純的驗收的把端"},{"start":434.28,"end":437.28,"text":"把它轉變成所謂的履約的輔導"},{"start":437.28,"end":440.28,"text":"然後在整個所有輔導的過程當中"},{"start":440.28,"end":443.28,"text":"去協助廠商可能降低錯誤跟延誤"},{"start":443.28,"end":445.28,"text":"那針對每一個部分"},{"start":445.28,"end":448.28,"text":"就不會再一直重複我剛剛所提到的這些問題"},{"start":448.28,"end":450.28,"text":"反而造成真實的一個延宕"},{"start":450.28,"end":454.28,"text":"您的意見是我們應該要做的"},{"start":454.28,"end":456.28,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":456.28,"end":458.28,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}