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不一樣"},{"start":102.65,"end":106.65,"text":"你如果不是做行政職公職的話你不用來這裡啊"},{"start":106.65,"end":108.65,"text":"我們不會去質詢特聘研究員"},{"start":108.65,"end":110.65,"text":"所以還是不一樣"},{"start":110.65,"end":114.65,"text":"院長的工作是同仁推薦提名"},{"start":114.65,"end":117.65,"text":"然後林仙委員會審查"},{"start":117.65,"end":121.65,"text":"然後再經由這個我們的評議會投票"},{"start":121.65,"end":122.65,"text":"當然有程序嘛"},{"start":122.65,"end":124.65,"text":"不可能是從天而降嘛"},{"start":124.65,"end":126.65,"text":"我的意思是說你個人的意願"},{"start":126.65,"end":128.65,"text":"因為那個時候行政院長的時候你就說"},{"start":128.65,"end":130.65,"text":"那是你最後的公職"},{"start":130.65,"end":132.65,"text":"院長都是從特聘研究員"},{"start":132.65,"end":134.65,"text":"都是從院士當中選的"},{"start":134.65,"end":136.65,"text":"這兩回事 別的特聘研究員沒有說"},{"start":136.65,"end":138.65,"text":"沒有說他的前一個是他的最後公職"},{"start":138.65,"end":140.65,"text":"但你有這樣的承諾嗎"},{"start":140.65,"end":142.65,"text":"可能是因為你做過副總統這麼高的位置"},{"start":142.65,"end":144.65,"text":"再去接行政院長"},{"start":144.65,"end":146.65,"text":"也許你覺得要跟社會大眾一個承諾"},{"start":146.65,"end":148.65,"text":"這個是我最後一個公職"},{"start":148.65,"end":150.65,"text":"可是下來之後你又接了中研院院長"},{"start":150.65,"end":152.65,"text":"我覺得這就是有打破承諾啦"},{"start":152.65,"end":154.65,"text":"我也有聽你早上回答其他委員啦"},{"start":154.65,"end":156.65,"text":"但我覺得那個說法"},{"start":156.65,"end":158.65,"text":"你喜歡學術是一回事"},{"start":158.65,"end":160.65,"text":"但你再任公職又是另外一回事"},{"start":160.65,"end":162.65,"text":"這是一個承諾問題"},{"start":162.65,"end":164.65,"text":"那我現在就凝結中研院院長"},{"start":164.65,"end":166.65,"text":"這個事情跟你請教一下"},{"start":166.65,"end":168.65,"text":"第一個"},{"start":169.32,"end":173.32,"text":"因為院長你現在是75歲了嘛"},{"start":173.32,"end":175.32,"text":"那我們都知道中研院院長"},{"start":175.32,"end":177.32,"text":"是可以做5年啦"},{"start":177.32,"end":179.32,"text":"所以你卸任大概是80歲"},{"start":179.32,"end":181.32,"text":"那中研院院長可以再任一次嘛"},{"start":181.32,"end":183.32,"text":"所以再接一次就是"},{"start":183.32,"end":185.32,"text":"可能會到85歲卸任"},{"start":185.32,"end":187.32,"text":"您目前是"},{"start":187.32,"end":189.32,"text":"應該是做得好就繼續連任嘛"},{"start":189.32,"end":193.32,"text":"這個我是天主徒啦"},{"start":193.32,"end":195.32,"text":"天主的安排"},{"start":195.32,"end":197.32,"text":"才是我最後的衣櫃啦"},{"start":197.32,"end":199.32,"text":"不是這個說什麼相關"},{"start":199.32,"end":201.32,"text":"我是問說"},{"start":201.32,"end":203.32,"text":"你做到這一任到80歲嘛"},{"start":203.32,"end":205.32,"text":"我現在的安排就是做到80歲"},{"start":205.32,"end":207.32,"text":"所以到時候沒有考慮要連任是不是"},{"start":207.32,"end":209.32,"text":"連不連任我就講"},{"start":209.32,"end":211.32,"text":"到時候看天主的安排"},{"start":211.93,"end":213.93,"text":"我說老實話"},{"start":213.93,"end":215.93,"text":"當任中研院院長我也是掙扎了一段時間"},{"start":215.93,"end":217.93,"text":"也掙扎"},{"start":217.93,"end":219.93,"text":"所以意思就是說你現在目前的規劃只有到80"},{"start":219.93,"end":221.93,"text":"但是我到時候"},{"start":221.93,"end":223.93,"text":"再看看嘛對不對"},{"start":223.93,"end":225.93,"text":"如果做得好或是有人在推薦你什麼"},{"start":225.93,"end":227.93,"text":"你就繼續做嘛"},{"start":227.93,"end":229.93,"text":"我想這是假設性的問題啦"},{"start":229.93,"end":231.93,"text":"因為這個以前"},{"start":231.93,"end":233.93,"text":"中研院院長年紀最大"},{"start":233.93,"end":235.93,"text":"是退休是李遠哲嗎"},{"start":235.93,"end":237.93,"text":"不是"},{"start":237.93,"end":239.93,"text":"你搞錯了"},{"start":239.93,"end":241.93,"text":"吳大友是幾歲"},{"start":241.93,"end":243.93,"text":"他開始擔任的時候"},{"start":243.93,"end":245.93,"text":"我記得是77"},{"start":245.93,"end":247.93,"text":"退下來的時候"},{"start":247.93,"end":249.93,"text":"他87還是88"},{"start":249.93,"end":251.93,"text":"所以那個"},{"start":251.93,"end":253.93,"text":"你就算85也沒有"},{"start":253.93,"end":255.93,"text":"超過他啦"},{"start":255.93,"end":257.93,"text":"我想這是假設性的問題啦"},{"start":257.93,"end":259.93,"text":"今天在這裡討論沒有意思"},{"start":259.93,"end":261.93,"text":"沒有意思沒關係"},{"start":261.93,"end":263.93,"text":"然後再來第二個"},{"start":263.93,"end":265.93,"text":"這個就不是假設性問題"},{"start":265.93,"end":267.93,"text":"第二個問題是因為"},{"start":267.93,"end":269.93,"text":"院長您我們都期許"},{"start":269.93,"end":271.93,"text":"中研院院長應該要很行政中立"},{"start":271.93,"end":273.93,"text":"但因為過去您"},{"start":273.93,"end":275.93,"text":"政治的背景"},{"start":275.93,"end":277.93,"text":"比較多啦"},{"start":277.93,"end":279.93,"text":"你也服選非常多次"},{"start":279.93,"end":281.93,"text":"你在你的位置上尤其是在"},{"start":281.93,"end":283.93,"text":"特聘研究員的位置上也有做過"},{"start":283.93,"end":285.93,"text":"服選"},{"start":285.93,"end":287.93,"text":"我不知道說您現在"},{"start":287.93,"end":289.93,"text":"當了院長還會不會"},{"start":289.93,"end":291.93,"text":"服選因為好像我記得2022年"},{"start":291.93,"end":293.93,"text":"那時候是特聘研究員嘛"},{"start":293.93,"end":295.93,"text":"那時候還擔任民進黨台北市長"},{"start":295.93,"end":297.93,"text":"候選人陳時中的主任委員"},{"start":297.93,"end":299.93,"text":"然後多次幫他站台"},{"start":299.93,"end":301.93,"text":"但那時候你說按照規定"},{"start":301.93,"end":303.93,"text":"雖然是按照規定但是相較"},{"start":303.93,"end":305.93,"text":"其他的特聘研究員您的站台次數"},{"start":305.93,"end":307.93,"text":"跟參與政黨的活動的次數"},{"start":307.93,"end":309.93,"text":"是明顯高於其他的特聘研究員"},{"start":309.93,"end":311.93,"text":"那現在又不一樣了"},{"start":311.93,"end":313.93,"text":"現在是中研院院長"},{"start":313.93,"end":315.93,"text":"就不可以了"},{"start":315.93,"end":317.93,"text":"絕對不會是服選嘛不會參加服選嘛"},{"start":317.93,"end":319.93,"text":"就是行政中立法裡面"},{"start":319.93,"end":321.93,"text":"就規定的很清楚"},{"start":321.93,"end":323.93,"text":"我做什麼角色就扮演這個角色"},{"start":323.93,"end":325.93,"text":"一定不會參與服選"},{"start":325.93,"end":327.93,"text":"那對於通方政黨背書這些呢"},{"start":329.26,"end":333.26,"text":"我想你現在又問了很多假設性的問題"},{"start":333.26,"end":335.26,"text":"這不是假設性問題"},{"start":335.26,"end":337.26,"text":"該遵守行政中立的我一定遵守"},{"start":337.26,"end":339.26,"text":"我覺得前一任廖俊志院長"},{"start":339.26,"end":341.26,"text":"就蠻有風骨的"},{"start":341.26,"end":343.26,"text":"譬如說"},{"start":343.26,"end":345.26,"text":"剛剛我看到其他委員在講能源的問題"},{"start":345.26,"end":347.26,"text":"行政院一直告訴大家說"},{"start":347.26,"end":349.26,"text":"台灣不缺電"},{"start":349.26,"end":351.26,"text":"但廖俊志院長根據他的分析研究"},{"start":351.26,"end":353.26,"text":"其實那時候我也在這邊問他"},{"start":353.26,"end":355.26,"text":"他就擺明了他說2050年"},{"start":355.26,"end":357.26,"text":"我們要做到淨銀碳排"},{"start":357.26,"end":359.26,"text":"同時間又要不缺電"},{"start":359.26,"end":361.26,"text":"是非常困難的事情"},{"start":361.26,"end":363.26,"text":"我覺得他就有把知識份子的那種"},{"start":363.26,"end":365.26,"text":"擔憂講出來"},{"start":365.26,"end":367.26,"text":"他的數據跟行政院的數據就不一樣"},{"start":367.26,"end":369.26,"text":"因為行政院總是喜歡粉飾太平"},{"start":369.26,"end":371.26,"text":"但中研院的研究不一樣"},{"start":371.26,"end":373.26,"text":"他就很大聲講出來"},{"start":373.26,"end":375.26,"text":"所以我們期許過程"},{"start":375.26,"end":377.26,"text":"我也會這樣子"},{"start":377.26,"end":379.26,"text":"40到哪裡我就講到哪裡"},{"start":379.26,"end":381.26,"text":"絕對沒有所謂的政黨考慮"},{"start":381.26,"end":383.26,"text":"你放心"},{"start":383.26,"end":385.26,"text":"然後再來喔院長"},{"start":385.26,"end":387.26,"text":"剛剛我提到年紀的問題"},{"start":387.26,"end":389.26,"text":"其實不是說年紀大不好"},{"start":389.26,"end":391.26,"text":"年紀大但是能夠奉獻社會"},{"start":391.26,"end":393.26,"text":"都是好事"},{"start":393.26,"end":395.26,"text":"我在之前有一個提案"},{"start":395.26,"end":397.26,"text":"跟院長報告"},{"start":397.26,"end":399.26,"text":"因為你做過行政院院長"},{"start":399.26,"end":401.26,"text":"跟你們報告"},{"start":401.26,"end":403.26,"text":"我是很關心教育"},{"start":403.26,"end":405.26,"text":"現在教育的現場發生掉失慌的問題"},{"start":405.26,"end":407.26,"text":"找不到老師"},{"start":407.26,"end":409.26,"text":"正式老師有的考上不報到"},{"start":409.26,"end":411.26,"text":"以前都說有流浪老師"},{"start":411.26,"end":413.26,"text":"現在是代理老師找不到"},{"start":413.26,"end":415.26,"text":"其中一個原因"},{"start":415.26,"end":417.26,"text":"當然就是環境不好"},{"start":417.26,"end":419.26,"text":"老師不受到尊重"},{"start":419.26,"end":421.26,"text":"被濫述"},{"start":421.26,"end":423.26,"text":"有一個部分原因是業界的薪資比較高"},{"start":423.26,"end":425.26,"text":"像所以理化老師那些都比較難找"},{"start":425.26,"end":427.26,"text":"有很多原因"},{"start":427.26,"end":429.26,"text":"所以我就提一個案"},{"start":429.26,"end":431.26,"text":"學校因為"},{"start":430.19,"end":432.19,"text":"找不到人怎麼辦呢"},{"start":432.19,"end":434.19,"text":"就拜託退休老師回來幫忙"},{"start":434.06,"end":436.06,"text":"然後退休老師"},{"start":436.06,"end":438.06,"text":"因為他們有受一個在就業的薪資上限"},{"start":438.06,"end":440.06,"text":"大概不能超過最低薪資"},{"start":440.06,"end":442.06,"text":"所以他能夠幫忙就有限"},{"start":442.53,"end":444.53,"text":"然後所以有些行政人員"},{"start":444.53,"end":446.53,"text":"跟我講這個事情我說好那我來修"},{"start":446.53,"end":448.53,"text":"我至少讓那些願意回來幫忙的"},{"start":448.53,"end":450.53,"text":"那些退休老師"},{"start":450.53,"end":452.53,"text":"他可以在薪資上限這可以有些彈性"},{"start":452.53,"end":454.53,"text":"不要受到這個限制"},{"start":454.53,"end":456.53,"text":"因為現在是找不到人請他們回來"},{"start":456.53,"end":458.53,"text":"結果就被民進黨立委"},{"start":458.53,"end":460.53,"text":"還有被什麼民進黨附隨組織公督盟"},{"start":460.53,"end":462.53,"text":"萬罵"},{"start":462.53,"end":464.53,"text":"說我這是在養雙薪匪毛"},{"start":464.53,"end":466.53,"text":"說我這個是擋了年輕人的"},{"start":466.53,"end":468.53,"text":"身千"},{"start":468.53,"end":470.53,"text":"然後公督盟講說這個就是"},{"start":470.53,"end":472.53,"text":"能撈就撈啊"},{"start":472.53,"end":474.53,"text":"能混就混"},{"start":474.53,"end":476.53,"text":"我不能接受這樣的說法"},{"start":476.53,"end":478.53,"text":"人家是回來幫忙"},{"start":478.53,"end":480.53,"text":"請問現在校園"},{"start":480.53,"end":482.53,"text":"如果那麼好待的話"},{"start":482.53,"end":484.53,"text":"學校需要去拜託退休老師回來嗎"},{"start":484.53,"end":486.53,"text":"怎麼可以罵人家能混就混"},{"start":486.53,"end":488.53,"text":"所以只要退休老師回來"},{"start":488.53,"end":490.53,"text":"就是肥貓嗎"},{"start":490.53,"end":492.53,"text":"這個您也算是"},{"start":492.53,"end":494.53,"text":"您不算退休啦"},{"start":494.53,"end":496.53,"text":"可是您也算是離開公職"},{"start":496.53,"end":498.53,"text":"再換一個工作"},{"start":498.53,"end":500.53,"text":"你可以接受我剛講的民進黨立委"},{"start":500.53,"end":502.53,"text":"還有附隨組織公督盟這樣亂罵嗎"},{"start":502.53,"end":504.53,"text":"你可以接受嗎"},{"start":504.53,"end":506.53,"text":"我想在學校如果"},{"start":506.53,"end":508.53,"text":"實質缺乏的情況下"},{"start":508.53,"end":510.53,"text":"有人約你回來幫忙喔"},{"start":510.53,"end":512.53,"text":"這是一件好事情"},{"start":512.53,"end":514.53,"text":"而且現在的人的健康狀況也很好"},{"start":514.53,"end":516.53,"text":"他的經驗教學經驗"},{"start":516.53,"end":518.53,"text":"也對學生的教育會有所幫助的"},{"start":518.53,"end":520.53,"text":"是嗎那你"},{"start":520.53,"end":522.53,"text":"那為什麼公督盟要說他們是能撈就撈"},{"start":522.53,"end":524.53,"text":"能混就混"},{"start":524.53,"end":526.53,"text":"可以這樣亂罵嗎"},{"start":526.8,"end":528.8,"text":"是不是我們在務實解決問題"},{"start":528.8,"end":530.8,"text":"所以剛剛我問你年紀這樣我沒有說不好"},{"start":530.8,"end":532.8,"text":"其實你剛剛如果說你願意"},{"start":532.8,"end":534.8,"text":"再做一任我會說很棒"},{"start":535.68,"end":537.68,"text":"對大家要就事論事"},{"start":537.68,"end":539.68,"text":"我說這是假設性問題"},{"start":539.68,"end":541.68,"text":"沒有沒有我說我不為難你"},{"start":541.68,"end":543.68,"text":"因為你可能有不好說的原因"},{"start":543.68,"end":545.68,"text":"但我問這個問題不是要去質疑你"},{"start":545.68,"end":547.68,"text":"我們是要我們是覺得好的人才"},{"start":547.68,"end":549.68,"text":"而且就像我剛講"},{"start":549.68,"end":551.68,"text":"他們回來是解決問題"},{"start":551.68,"end":553.68,"text":"居然被罵成這個樣子"},{"start":553.68,"end":555.68,"text":"我認為您"},{"start":555.68,"end":557.68,"text":"作為一個這個在公務門"},{"start":557.68,"end":559.68,"text":"服務很久的也應該"},{"start":559.68,"end":561.68,"text":"出來講講話啦然後再來問一下"},{"start":561.68,"end":563.68,"text":"石安啦最後那個主席再給"},{"start":563.68,"end":565.68,"text":"我一點時間石安的問題我跟請教一下"},{"start":565.68,"end":567.68,"text":"因為我印象當中我們那時候"},{"start":567.68,"end":569.68,"text":"這一任立委剛就任的時候"},{"start":569.68,"end":571.68,"text":"剛好就發生幾起石安事件"},{"start":571.68,"end":573.68,"text":"蘇丹紅還有"},{"start":573.68,"end":575.68,"text":"西部特首"},{"start":575.68,"end":577.68,"text":"所以當時行政院長陳建仁"},{"start":577.68,"end":579.68,"text":"有到我們立法院做石安報告"},{"start":579.68,"end":581.68,"text":"那我們有機會這個"},{"start":581.68,"end":583.68,"text":"看到您的報告"},{"start":583.68,"end":585.68,"text":"那您當時就講說"},{"start":585.68,"end":587.68,"text":"我記得那時候石安報告"},{"start":587.68,"end":589.68,"text":"我總結幾個字就是"},{"start":589.68,"end":591.68,"text":"馬英九好爛爛蔡英文好棒棒"},{"start":591.68,"end":593.68,"text":"那個時候您的報告"},{"start":593.68,"end":595.68,"text":"就呈現這個狀況因為您提到"},{"start":595.68,"end":597.68,"text":"馬政府時代2008有"},{"start":597.68,"end":599.68,"text":"奶粉的三聚氰胺事件2011"},{"start":599.68,"end":601.68,"text":"有塑化劑事件2013有毒澱粉"},{"start":601.68,"end":603.68,"text":"20132014還有"},{"start":603.68,"end":605.68,"text":"油品的問題好很爛"},{"start":606.52,"end":608.52,"text":"的系統性問題但是在2016年"},{"start":608.52,"end":610.52,"text":"蔡英文積極推動石安五環之後"},{"start":610.52,"end":612.52,"text":"這些都變"},{"start":612.52,"end":614.52,"text":"石安問題都從系統性問題"},{"start":614.52,"end":616.52,"text":"轉為個案包括"},{"start":616.52,"end":618.52,"text":"西部特羅包括蘇丹紅啊這些"},{"start":618.52,"end":620.52,"text":"都是個案個案沒辦法"},{"start":620.52,"end":622.52,"text":"我們我們只能解決系統性問題"},{"start":622.52,"end":624.52,"text":"可是您卸任之後您是"},{"start":624.52,"end":626.52,"text":"2024年5月卸任"},{"start":626.52,"end":628.52,"text":"那最近又發生石安"},{"start":628.52,"end":630.52,"text":"問題又有這個"},{"start":630.52,"end":632.52,"text":"癌油的事情"},{"start":632.15,"end":634.15,"text":"那請問這次個案還是系統性問題"},{"start":634.15,"end":636.15,"text":"這一次因為"},{"start":636.15,"end":638.15,"text":"廠商延遲通報隱蔽"},{"start":638.15,"end":640.15,"text":"資料然後使得所有"},{"start":640.15,"end":642.15,"text":"的這一個油品下架"},{"start":642.15,"end":644.15,"text":"受到影響而且不只是"},{"start":644.15,"end":646.15,"text":"油品本身所以是系統性"},{"start":646.15,"end":648.15,"text":"問題所以他就造成了"},{"start":648.15,"end":650.15,"text":"不同行業都受到影響"},{"start":650.15,"end":652.15,"text":"所以這是一個系統性的問題對嘛"},{"start":652.15,"end":654.15,"text":"所以您在2024年的時候石安"},{"start":654.15,"end":656.15,"text":"報告"},{"start":655.46,"end":657.46,"text":"就有點誇大了嘛"},{"start":657.46,"end":659.46,"text":"實際上石安五環就只有漏洞"},{"start":659.46,"end":661.46,"text":"如果沒有漏洞怎麼後面會發生系統性問題"},{"start":661.46,"end":663.46,"text":"西部特羅我想你很清楚"},{"start":663.46,"end":665.46,"text":"我沒有在講"},{"start":665.46,"end":667.46,"text":"就只有一個實驗室"},{"start":667.46,"end":669.46,"text":"我現在不是講個案"},{"start":669.46,"end":671.46,"text":"因為你那個時候講的意思是說"},{"start":671.46,"end":673.46,"text":"我們石安五環已經讓"},{"start":673.46,"end":675.46,"text":"石安的問題已經得到很好的"},{"start":675.46,"end":677.46,"text":"保護所以不會再發生系統性"},{"start":677.46,"end":679.46,"text":"問題了嘛那時候是蠻"},{"start":679.46,"end":681.46,"text":"自信的講出這樣的話嘛"},{"start":681.46,"end":683.46,"text":"這一次是廠商你不管"},{"start":683.46,"end":685.46,"text":"因為"},{"start":685.46,"end":687.46,"text":"我後來也看了大概2024年"},{"start":687.46,"end":689.46,"text":"3月的時候"},{"start":689.46,"end":691.46,"text":"您去參加石安匯報之後的才市"},{"start":691.46,"end":693.46,"text":"你就是說要加強"},{"start":693.46,"end":695.46,"text":"在後市場管理部分"},{"start":695.46,"end":697.46,"text":"後市場管理就是源頭管理之後"},{"start":697.46,"end":699.46,"text":"你就說也需要食品業者"},{"start":699.46,"end":701.46,"text":"研議自律並加強自主"},{"start":701.46,"end":703.46,"text":"檢驗然後"},{"start":703.46,"end":705.46,"text":"而且要確定原料安全性其實"},{"start":705.46,"end":707.46,"text":"那時候你就看到這個問題了嘛"},{"start":707.46,"end":709.46,"text":"看到這個問題沒辦法杜絕現在又發生"},{"start":709.46,"end":711.46,"text":"一樣的問題那就代表有一些"},{"start":711.46,"end":713.46,"text":"做為了畏罪"},{"start":713.46,"end":715.46,"text":"當然是不能都靠廠商啊"},{"start":715.46,"end":717.46,"text":"如果都靠廠商的話那政府要幹嘛"},{"start":717.46,"end":719.46,"text":"所以中央跟地方也要"},{"start":719.46,"end":721.46,"text":"有密合"},{"start":721.46,"end":723.46,"text":"那個時候就是有一點太過於自信"},{"start":723.46,"end":725.46,"text":"就覺得馬英就很爛蔡政府很棒"},{"start":725.46,"end":727.46,"text":"實際上後來賴政府也發生"},{"start":727.46,"end":729.46,"text":"系統性的問題嘛所以我覺得"},{"start":729.46,"end":731.46,"text":"政府不能夠太傲慢"},{"start":731.46,"end":733.46,"text":"要謙卑"},{"start":733.46,"end":735.46,"text":"我現在問你一個問題"},{"start":735.46,"end":737.46,"text":"那你那時候就自得其滿"},{"start":737.46,"end":739.46,"text":"就馬英就很爛爛啊蔡正文好棒棒啊"},{"start":739.46,"end":741.46,"text":"事實是西部特羅"},{"start":741.46,"end":743.46,"text":"這是一個真的是個案嘛"},{"start":743.46,"end":745.46,"text":"可是後來又蘇丹紅嘛"},{"start":745.46,"end":747.46,"text":"蘇丹紅就是兩個廠商進入的時候"},{"start":747.46,"end":749.46,"text":"而且"},{"start":749.01,"end":751.01,"text":"當時是已經在"},{"start":751.01,"end":753.01,"text":"這當時是雲林縣發現的嘛"},{"start":753.01,"end":755.01,"text":"那是不是系統性問題嘛結果有沒有"},{"start":755.01,"end":757.01,"text":"我現在講的是"},{"start":757.01,"end":759.01,"text":"你的食安報告"},{"start":759.01,"end":761.01,"text":"你當時食安報告的意思是說自從蔡政府"},{"start":761.01,"end":763.01,"text":"推出食安五環之後"},{"start":763.01,"end":765.01,"text":"那都沒有系統性"},{"start":765.01,"end":767.01,"text":"都是個案就是很自得意嘛"},{"start":767.01,"end":769.01,"text":"就是我們很棒"},{"start":769.01,"end":771.01,"text":"但是現在又有啦所以是賴的問題嘛"},{"start":771.01,"end":773.01,"text":"所以是賴的問題嘛"},{"start":773.01,"end":775.01,"text":"所以系統性問題一直都存在"},{"start":775.01,"end":777.01,"text":"只是看它什麼時候爆發嘛"},{"start":777.01,"end":779.01,"text":"那我覺得所以政府要謙卑"},{"start":779.01,"end":781.01,"text":"那我想問"},{"start":781.01,"end":783.01,"text":"我想問院長今天"},{"start":783.01,"end":785.01,"text":"卓院長到現在都不願意道歉"},{"start":785.01,"end":787.01,"text":"他"},{"start":787.01,"end":789.01,"text":"他雖然有感到不好意思但不是對"},{"start":789.01,"end":791.01,"text":"整件事情道歉他只有針對"},{"start":791.01,"end":793.01,"text":"後來又發現一批問題"},{"start":793.01,"end":795.01,"text":"有道歉一開始沒有稽查到"},{"start":795.01,"end":797.01,"text":"一開始只有29批後來又"},{"start":797.01,"end":799.01,"text":"冒一批他對這個事情感到抱歉"},{"start":799.01,"end":801.01,"text":"但對整件事情包括"},{"start":801.01,"end":803.01,"text":"一開始的時候食藥署在7月"},{"start":803.01,"end":805.01,"text":"3號就選擇蓋牌不願意公佈"},{"start":805.01,"end":807.01,"text":"第二層食品的流向"},{"start":807.01,"end":809.01,"text":"然後被大家罵爆之後又改口"},{"start":809.01,"end":811.01,"text":"隔了兩天改成說20%"},{"start":811.01,"end":813.01,"text":"的問題有的成分以下的"},{"start":813.01,"end":815.01,"text":"不用公佈只有20%以上"},{"start":815.01,"end":817.01,"text":"後來被罵爆之後"},{"start":817.01,"end":819.01,"text":"後來又改成說忽然間非常"},{"start":819.01,"end":821.01,"text":"開始看中這個事情總統也才"},{"start":821.01,"end":823.01,"text":"開始發臉書對這個事情"},{"start":823.01,"end":825.01,"text":"表示重視卓院長一開始"},{"start":825.01,"end":827.01,"text":"的蓋牌反反覆覆在這段時間"},{"start":827.01,"end":829.01,"text":"讓更多的國人吃到了"},{"start":829.01,"end":831.01,"text":"致癌物"},{"start":831.01,"end":833.01,"text":"然後目前為止都一直沒有告訴大家"},{"start":833.01,"end":835.01,"text":"到底發生原因是什麼可是"},{"start":835.01,"end":837.01,"text":"不道歉就是不道歉我不知道你有沒有"},{"start":837.01,"end":839.01,"text":"還沒有在關心立法院發生事上"},{"start":839.01,"end":841.01,"text":"禮拜二十三那個專報"},{"start":841.01,"end":843.01,"text":"信用界委員問卓院長"},{"start":843.01,"end":845.01,"text":"說你願意道歉嗎卓院長說"},{"start":845.01,"end":847.01,"text":"我都已經聲表遺憾了"},{"start":847.01,"end":849.01,"text":"我說要深切檢討不然怎麼樣今天"},{"start":849.01,"end":851.01,"text":"是道歉專報嗎就是傲慢到"},{"start":851.01,"end":853.01,"text":"不行"},{"start":852.22,"end":854.22,"text":"那但是如果"},{"start":854.22,"end":856.22,"text":"2014年那個時候民進黨"},{"start":856.22,"end":858.22,"text":"要求江奕樺道歉下台"},{"start":858.22,"end":860.22,"text":"為福島下台江奕樺在"},{"start":860.22,"end":862.22,"text":"國會鞠躬跟大家"},{"start":862.22,"end":864.22,"text":"感到抱歉我想問一下"},{"start":864.22,"end":866.22,"text":"院長如果今天還是你做"},{"start":866.22,"end":868.22,"text":"行政院長的話你會用"},{"start":868.22,"end":870.22,"text":"謙卑的態度道歉嗎"},{"start":870.22,"end":872.22,"text":"還是一樣凹到底就是說"},{"start":872.22,"end":874.22,"text":"我已經"},{"start":873.38,"end":875.38,"text":"我已經深刻反省又怎麼樣"},{"start":876.32,"end":878.32,"text":"我覺得你會用哪個態度"},{"start":878.32,"end":880.32,"text":"謙卑是我一向的做法那你會道歉嗎"},{"start":881.65,"end":883.65,"text":"這一個是假設性的問題"},{"start":883.65,"end":885.65,"text":"又假設性又不會的"},{"start":885.65,"end":887.65,"text":"如果現在就是現在如果您施行這院長的話"},{"start":887.65,"end":889.65,"text":"這假設性問題"},{"start":889.65,"end":891.65,"text":"如果你這是假如你是"},{"start":891.65,"end":893.65,"text":"所以這是假設性問題對不對"},{"start":894.47,"end":896.47,"text":"但是你說謙卑是你的態度嗎"},{"start":896.47,"end":898.47,"text":"對謙卑是一向是我的"},{"start":898.47,"end":900.47,"text":"現在的行政院講說他們沒有蓋牌"},{"start":900.47,"end":902.47,"text":"是廠商蓋牌"},{"start":902.47,"end":904.47,"text":"但是我們講的行政院蓋牌是指7月3號"},{"start":904.47,"end":906.47,"text":"他第一時間不願意公佈第二層的"},{"start":906.47,"end":908.47,"text":"流向那個就是我們講的蓋牌"},{"start":908.47,"end":910.47,"text":"到7月5號才公佈20%"},{"start":910.47,"end":912.47,"text":"所以這段期間"},{"start":912.47,"end":914.47,"text":"大家不斷在吃那個本鞭皮"},{"start":915.45,"end":917.45,"text":"這樣子算謙卑嗎"},{"start":917.45,"end":919.45,"text":"然後民進黨發言人說"},{"start":919.45,"end":921.45,"text":"又不是我逼你吃了跟我大喊聲幹嘛"},{"start":922.17,"end":924.17,"text":"民進黨的議員講說"},{"start":924.34,"end":928.34,"text":"725上街頭就是什麼在野黨利用無知的民眾"},{"start":928.34,"end":930.34,"text":"現在民眾希望吃的健康是無知"},{"start":931.56,"end":933.56,"text":"你覺得夠謙卑嗎"},{"start":933.52,"end":935.52,"text":"這不是假的性問題吧"},{"start":936,"end":938,"text":"你覺得夠謙卑嗎"},{"start":938.8,"end":940.8,"text":"你覺得夠謙卑嗎"},{"start":940.42,"end":942.42,"text":"對 我覺得"},{"start":942.97,"end":944.97,"text":"不是我們今天質詢的問題"},{"start":944.97,"end":946.97,"text":"我知道不是 但是因為現在國人最關心這件事情"},{"start":946.97,"end":948.97,"text":"然後你跟大家不一樣的地方就在於你做過行政院長嘛"},{"start":948.97,"end":950.97,"text":"所以從一開始到現在才會有人問有的問題嘛"},{"start":950.97,"end":952.97,"text":"我覺得質詢應該問質詢的問題"},{"start":952.97,"end":954.97,"text":"我覺得質詢應該問質詢的問題"},{"start":954.97,"end":956.97,"text":"我現在就在問這個事啊"},{"start":956.97,"end":958.97,"text":"民眾關心的啊"},{"start":958.97,"end":960.97,"text":"大家關心啊"},{"start":960.97,"end":962.97,"text":"超過九分鐘"},{"start":962.04,"end":964.04,"text":"好 我知道"},{"start":964.04,"end":966.04,"text":"但是 不好意思"},{"start":966.04,"end":968.04,"text":"你剛剛講說你會秉持知識分子的風骨啦"},{"start":968.04,"end":970.04,"text":"言所當言"},{"start":970.04,"end":972.04,"text":"但到最後有點批評執政黨你又縮回去"},{"start":972.04,"end":974.04,"text":"我希望"},{"start":974.04,"end":976.04,"text":"我希望這個"},{"start":976.22,"end":978.22,"text":"中研院長陳彥仁可以跳脫政黨"},{"start":978.22,"end":980.22,"text":"我一定會"},{"start":980.22,"end":982.22,"text":"講到該什麼就講什麼"},{"start":982.22,"end":984.22,"text":"我一定會"},{"start":984.22,"end":986.22,"text":"但是你不要在不該質詢的題目上"},{"start":986.22,"end":988.22,"text":"政黨會不該質詢"},{"start":988.22,"end":990.22,"text":"你還管我要質詢什麼"},{"start":990.22,"end":992.22,"text":"我們院長這個太傲慢了吧"},{"start":992.22,"end":994.22,"text":"沒有"},{"start":994.22,"end":996.22,"text":"大家關心這一題嘛"},{"start":996.22,"end":998.22,"text":"中研院沒有"},{"start":998.22,"end":1000.22,"text":"中研院跟什麼都有關啊"},{"start":1000.22,"end":1002.22,"text":"中研院做研究 研究就要跟事實接軌"},{"start":1002.22,"end":1004.22,"text":"所以中研院院長是什麼都有關啊"},{"start":1004.22,"end":1006.22,"text":"所以沒有不見上綱啦"},{"start":1006.22,"end":1008.22,"text":"中研院學術就是要跟事實做連結啦"},{"start":1008.22,"end":1010.22,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":1010.22,"end":1012.22,"text":"好 謝謝彥仁"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:37:47.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:37:48.936000+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請院長，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T11:37:49.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:37:50.188000+08:00","text":"好，有請院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:37:50.188000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:37:53.650000+08:00","text":"葉委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:37:53.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:37:56.221429+08:00","text":"院長好，先恭喜院長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:37:56.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:38:01.450000+08:00","text":"因為今天是院長第一次來，想跟院長請教幾個問題。是。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:38:01.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:38:11.983333+08:00","text":"第一個，院長您在之前擔任副總統的時候，主要是在推動年金改革，我記得你那時候為了推動，也告訴大家其實你也會受到影響。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:38:12.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:38:24.983333+08:00","text":"您當時說退休之後，你可領10萬元，但是如果改革之後，每個月是領6萬3,000元，若省吃儉用是夠的，以身作則，表示不是只有大家受影響，你也有受影響。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:38:25.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:38:28.587500+08:00","text":"但實際上你完全沒受到影響，為什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:38:28.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:38:43.864286+08:00","text":"因為你從2017年到現在2026年都還沒退休，你在2020年卸下副總統的職務，應該沒多久就立刻接聘了中研院的特聘研究員，當時月薪也是49萬。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:38:45.007143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:12.441667+08:00","text":"再來，特聘研究員做到2023年就當行政院院長，但你那時候可能就是……我不知道，你有做個承諾，因為你告訴大家說，其實你也沒有那麼喜歡當官，行政院院長就是你最後的公職，但沒有想到行政院院長卸任之後，你又回特聘研究員，現在又接了中研院院長，其實你有打破你當時的說法。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:12.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:18.983333+08:00","text":"我是有看到你早上有回應說學術工作不一樣，學術工作你就做特聘研究員就好了，為什麼一定要做院長？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:19.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:27.364286+08:00","text":"這不一樣，你如果不是做行政職、公職的話，你不用來這裡，我們不會去質詢特聘研究員，所以還是不一樣。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:27.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:38.383333+08:00","text":"院長的工作是同仁推薦提名，由同仁提名、遴選委員會審查，再經由我們的評議會投票……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:38.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:39.483333+08:00","text":"當然有程序嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:39.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:47.400000+08:00","text":"不可能是從天而降，我的意思是說你個人的意願，因為那個時候擔任行政院院長時，你就說那是你最後的公職，其實真的是……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:47.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:51.427778+08:00","text":"以往的院長都是從院士當中選的……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:51.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:52.078571+08:00","text":"不是，這兩回事。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:52.221429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:57.205556+08:00","text":"別的特聘研究員沒有說他的前一個工作是他的最後公職，但您有這樣的承諾嘛！","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:57.205556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:39:58.205556+08:00","text":"就看工作的定義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:39:57.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:05.450000+08:00","text":"可能因為你做過副總統這麼高的位置，再去接行政院長，也許你覺得要給社會大眾承諾：這是我最後的公職。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:40:05.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:09.316667+08:00","text":"可是下來之後你又接了中研院院長，我覺得這就是打破承諾。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:40:09.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:19.400000+08:00","text":"早上我有聽你回答其他委員時提到的那個說法，但我覺得你喜歡學術是一回事，但再任公職又是另外一回事，這是一個承諾問題。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:40:19.816667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:23.050000+08:00","text":"我現在就你接任中研院院長這件事跟你請教。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:40:23.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:29.229091+08:00","text":"第一個，院長現在是75歲，對不對？對。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:40:30.501818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:42.034286+08:00","text":"我們都知道中研院院長可以做5年，所以你卸任時大概是80歲；中研院院長可以再任一次，而再接一次可能會到85歲卸任。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:40:42.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:45.986667+08:00","text":"目前應該是做得好就會繼續連任，沒錯吧？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:40:47.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:53.431111+08:00","text":"我是天主教徒，天主的安排才是我最後的依歸。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:40:54.542222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:56.097778+08:00","text":"這是什麼相關？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:40:56.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:40:59.875556+08:00","text":"我是問你這任做到80歲……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:00.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:02.138182+08:00","text":"我現在的安排就是做到80歲。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:02.586667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:04.186667+08:00","text":"到時候沒有考慮要連任，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:04.605714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:06.034286+08:00","text":"對於延不延任我講過……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:06.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:08.097778+08:00","text":"到時候看天主的安排？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:09.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:12.812353+08:00","text":"說老實話，擔任中研院院長我也掙扎一段時間。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:12.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:14.263333+08:00","text":"也掙扎過？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:15.152222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:20.644286+08:00","text":"意思就是目前的規劃只到80歲，但到時候再看看，對不對？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:20.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:24.263333+08:00","text":"如果做得好或是有人再推薦你，你就繼續做？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:24.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:26.566364+08:00","text":"我想這是假設性的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:26.566364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:28.263333+08:00","text":"好，沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:28.263333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:32.430000+08:00","text":"以前中研院院長年紀最大退休的是李遠哲？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:32.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:37.263333+08:00","text":"不是，你搞錯了，是吳大猷。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:38.263333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:38.596667+08:00","text":"吳大猷幾歲退？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:38.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:42.430000+08:00","text":"從他開始擔任，我記得是……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:42.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:44.596667+08:00","text":"退下來時候。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:44.596667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:46.930000+08:00","text":"我記得是87還88歲。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:46.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:51.930000+08:00","text":"所以你就算85歲退，也沒有超過他。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:52.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:56.748182+08:00","text":"我想這是假設性的問題，今天在這裡討論這個沒有意思。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:56.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:57.787143+08:00","text":"沒有意思？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:41:58.072857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:41:58.644286+08:00","text":"好，沒關係。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:42:00.072857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:42:02.730000+08:00","text":"第二個就不是假設性問題了。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:42:05.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:42:27.130000+08:00","text":"我們都期許中研院院長要行政中立，但過去因為你的政治背景比較多，也輔選過非常多次，你在你的位置上，尤其是在特聘研究員的位置上也有做過輔選，不知道現在當了院長還會不會輔選？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:42:28.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:42:36.680000+08:00","text":"我記得2022年你還是特聘研究員時，擔任民進黨臺北市長候選人陳時中的競選主任委員，多次幫他站臺。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:42:37.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:42:46.776154+08:00","text":"那時候你說是按照規定，雖然是按照規定，但相較其他的特聘研究員，你站臺的次數與參與政黨活動的次數明顯高於其他特聘研究員。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:42:47.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:42:50.680000+08:00","text":"現在又不一樣了，現在是中研院院長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:42:50.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:42:52.530000+08:00","text":"就不可以了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:42:52.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:42:53.730000+08:00","text":"絕對不會去輔選？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:42:53.996667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:42:54.663333+08:00","text":"不會參加輔選？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:42:55.374444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:00.776154+08:00","text":"這在行政中立法裡規定得很清楚，我做什麼角色就扮演什麼角色。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:00.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:02.680000+08:00","text":"一定不會參與輔選？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:03.096667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:04.763333+08:00","text":"對於幫政黨背書這些呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:06.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:09.510000+08:00","text":"你現在又問了很多假設性的問題……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:09.510000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:10.510000+08:00","text":"這不是假設性問題！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:10.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:12.010000+08:00","text":"這不是假設性問題！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:12.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:14.106154+08:00","text":"該遵守行政中立的我一定遵守……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:14.106154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:15.106154+08:00","text":"這個不是假設性問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:14.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:38.010000+08:00","text":"我覺得前任的廖俊智院長就蠻有風骨，譬如剛剛其他委員在講能源問題，因為行政院一直告訴大家臺灣不缺電，但廖俊智院長根據他的分析研究……其實那時候我有在這邊問他，他就擺明了說：2050年要做到淨零碳排，同時間又要不缺電是非常困難的事情。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:38.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:41.860000+08:00","text":"我覺得他就有把知識分子的擔憂講出來……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:41.860000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:42.860000+08:00","text":"我也會講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:42.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:44.126667+08:00","text":"而且他的數據跟行政院的數據不一樣。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:44.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:50.010000+08:00","text":"因為行政院總是喜歡粉飾太平，但中研院的研究不一樣，所以他就很大聲講出來。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:50.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:51.760000+08:00","text":"我們期許過去……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:43:52.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:43:59.593333+08:00","text":"我也會evidence-based，事實到哪裡我就講到哪裡，絕對沒有所謂的政黨考慮，你放心。","quality":0.634},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:44:00.831429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:44:06.060000+08:00","text":"再來，剛剛我提到年紀問題，其實並不是說年紀大不好。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:44:06.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:44:09.760000+08:00","text":"雖然年紀大，但能夠奉獻社會都是好事。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:44:10.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:44:19.974286+08:00","text":"我之前有一個提案在此跟院長報告，因為你做過行政院院長，所以跟你報告，畢竟我很關心教育。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:44:20.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:44:24.805455+08:00","text":"現在教育現場發生教師荒，找不到老師。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:44:24.987273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:44:30.060000+08:00","text":"有的考上正式老師但不報到；代理老師……以前都說有流浪老師，現在是連代理老師也找不到，即便幾十招也招找不到人。","quality":0.542},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:44:30.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:44:43.860000+08:00","text":"其中一個原因當然就是環境不好，老師不受到尊重，被濫訴；有一部分原因是因為業界的薪資比較高，所以理化老師比較難找，總之有很多原因。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:44:44.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:44:48.940000+08:00","text":"為此我提了一個案，也就是當學校找不到老師時怎麼辦呢？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:44:49.371818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:44:51.008182+08:00","text":"可以拜託退休老師回來幫忙。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:44:51.726667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:44:58.860000+08:00","text":"不過退休老師有受再就業的薪資上限，不能超過最低薪資，所以能幫的忙就有限。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:45:00.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:45:11.280000+08:00","text":"由於有行政人員跟我講這件事，我說我來修法，至少讓那些願意回來幫忙的退休老師可以在薪資上限這點有些彈性，不要受到限制。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:45:11.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:45:23.348182+08:00","text":"因為現在是找不到人所以請他們回來，結果被民進黨立委、被民進黨附隨組織公督盟亂罵，說這是在養雙薪肥貓，說我擋了年輕人的升遷。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:45:25.893636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:45:31.030000+08:00","text":"公督盟說這就是公務人員能撈就撈，能混就混！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:45:31.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:45:41.387143+08:00","text":"我不能接受這樣的說法，人家是回來幫忙，結果罵人家能混就混，現在校園如果那麼好待的話，學校還需要去拜託退休老師回來嗎？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:45:41.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:45:43.348182+08:00","text":"怎麼可以罵人家能混就混！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:45:43.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:45:47.130000+08:00","text":"只要退休老師回來就是肥貓嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:45:49.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:45:59.387143+08:00","text":"院長，您不算退休，可是也算離開公職再換一個工作，你可以接受我剛剛講的，民進黨立委、還有其附隨組織公督盟這樣的亂罵嗎？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:45:59.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:01.196667+08:00","text":"你可以接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:02.101429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:15.530000+08:00","text":"在學校缺乏師資的情況下，如果有人願意回來幫忙是一件好事情，而且現在的人健康狀況也很好，其教學經驗也對學生的教育有所幫助。是嘛！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:17.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:21.030000+08:00","text":"為什麼公督盟要說他們能撈就撈，能混就混？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:21.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:23.244286+08:00","text":"可以這樣亂罵嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:24.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:25.633333+08:00","text":"我們只是要務實解決問題。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:26.035294+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:34.430000+08:00","text":"我剛剛問你年紀，但我沒有說不好，如果你剛剛說願意再做一任，其實我會說很棒，大家要就事論事……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:35.124444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:36.457778+08:00","text":"這是假設性問題……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:36.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:42.537143+08:00","text":"沒有，所以我不為難你，因為你可能有不好說的原因，而且我問這個問題不是要質疑你。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:42.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:50.457778+08:00","text":"我覺得好的人才……就像我剛剛講的，他們回來幫忙是為了解決問題，居然被罵成這樣子？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:53.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:46:57.295385+08:00","text":"你在公部門服務很久，也應該出來講講話。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:46:57.910769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:47:01.805000+08:00","text":"再來我問一下食安，請主席再給我一點時間，我請教食安問題。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:47:03.013333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:47:10.280000+08:00","text":"在我印象當中，這任立委剛就任時就發生幾起食安事件，蘇丹紅，還有……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:47:10.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:47:11.680000+08:00","text":"西布特羅。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:47:11.680000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:47:12.680000+08:00","text":"西布特羅的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:47:12.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:47:20.346667+08:00","text":"所以當時的行政院長陳建仁有到立法院做食安報告，我有機會看到你的報告。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:47:20.965714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:47:28.513333+08:00","text":"您當時就講說……我把我記得的食安報告用幾個字總結：馬英九好爛爛，蔡英文好棒棒。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:47:28.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:47:44.520000+08:00","text":"那時候你的報告呈現了這個狀況，你提到在馬政府時代，2008年有奶粉的三聚氰胺事件，2011年有塑化劑事件，2013年有毒澱粉事件，2013年、2014年還有油品問題，很爛，是系統性問題！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:47:44.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:47:59.366154+08:00","text":"但是在2016年蔡英文積極推動食安五環之後，這些食安問題都從系統性問題轉為個案，包括西布特羅，包括蘇丹紅，這些都是個案，個案沒辦法，我們只能解決系統性問題。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:47:59.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:11.007143+08:00","text":"可是你卸任之後，你是在2024年5月卸任，最近又發生食安問題，又有癌油的事情，請問這是個案還是系統性問題？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:11.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:21.750000+08:00","text":"這次因為廠商延遲通報，隱蔽資料，使相關油品下架受到影響，而且不只是油品本身……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:21.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:23.372222+08:00","text":"所以是系統性問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:23.372222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:24.483333+08:00","text":"還是個案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:24.483333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:28.721429+08:00","text":"造成不同行業都受到影響，所以這是一個系統性問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:28.864286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:33.888571+08:00","text":"對，所以你在2024年的食安報告就有點誇大了。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:34.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:36.293333+08:00","text":"實際上食安五環就是有漏洞……沒有……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:36.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:38.348889+08:00","text":"如果沒有漏洞，怎麼後面會發生系統性問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:38.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:44.210000+08:00","text":"對於西布特羅，我想委員很清楚，我不用再講，西布特羅就只有一個實驗室……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:44.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:46.210000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，我現在不是講個案。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:46.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:54.904444+08:00","text":"因為你那時候講的意思是，食安五環已經讓食安得到很好的保護，所以不會再發生系統性問題了。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:55.348889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:48:58.060000+08:00","text":"那時候是蠻自信地講出這樣的話……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:48:58.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:00.237778+08:00","text":"這一次是廠商檢驗出來，但沒有通報……不管！","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:00.237778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:02.682222+08:00","text":"當然是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:02.682222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:11.710000+08:00","text":"院長，後來在2024年3月，你去參加食安會報之後裁示，要加強後市場管理……","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:11.710000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:13.229231+08:00","text":"Postmarket……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:13.229231+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:21.960000+08:00","text":"就是源頭管理，你說需要食品業者嚴以自律，並加強自主檢驗，而且要確定原料安全性。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:22.126667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:28.860000+08:00","text":"其實那時候你就看到問題了，看到問題卻沒辦法杜絕，所以現在又發生一樣的問題，就代表有一些應作為而未作為……","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:28.860000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:30.460000+08:00","text":"這是因為不肖廠商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:30.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:32.060000+08:00","text":"當然不能都靠廠商！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:32.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:34.174286+08:00","text":"如果都靠廠商的話政府要幹什麼？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:34.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:37.793333+08:00","text":"所以中央跟地方要有密切合作……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:38.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:52.237778+08:00","text":"院長，我的意思是那時候就有一點太過自信，你就覺得馬英九很爛，蔡政府很棒，但實際上賴政府後來也發生系統性的問題，所以我覺得政府不能太傲慢，要謙卑、要謙卑，我先問你一個問題……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:52.237778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:53.237778+08:00","text":"我沒有傲慢……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:52.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:49:56.193333+08:00","text":"你那時候就是志得意滿，覺得馬英九很爛爛、蔡政府好棒棒……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:49:56.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:00.060000+08:00","text":"沒有，我講是事實，事實上西布特羅真的是個案。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:00.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:02.237778+08:00","text":"可是後來又有蘇丹紅嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:02.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:04.031429+08:00","text":"蘇丹紅就是兩個廠商進口的……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:04.031429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:08.191818+08:00","text":"是不是系統性問題？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:08.191818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:09.646364+08:00","text":"當時是雲林縣發現的，對不對？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:10.143333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:11.076667+08:00","text":"這是不是系統性問題？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:11.343333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:11.876667+08:00","text":"結果上游有沒有回收？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:12.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:25.676667+08:00","text":"我現在講的是你的食安報告，你當時食安報告的意思是，自從蔡政府推出食安五環之後都沒有系統性問題，都是個案，就是很志得意滿、我們很棒。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:25.676667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:26.676667+08:00","text":"這是事實。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:26.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:27.743333+08:00","text":"但是現在又有啦，所以是賴的問題嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:27.743333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:28.743333+08:00","text":"現在這一次的狀況剛才講過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:28.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:29.510000+08:00","text":"所以是賴的問題嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:30.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:33.828182+08:00","text":"所以系統性問題一直都存在，只是看它什麼時候爆發嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:34.737273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:35.828182+08:00","text":"所以政府要謙卑……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:36.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:36.510000+08:00","text":"謙卑我……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:38.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:50:55.856154+08:00","text":"我想問院長，今天卓院長到現在都不願意道歉，他雖然感到不好意思，但不是對整件事情道歉，他只有針對一開始沒有稽查到後來又發現的1批問題油道歉，一開始只有29批，後來又冒出1批，他對這件事情感到抱歉。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:50:56.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:20.610000+08:00","text":"但對整件事情，包括一開始食藥署在7月3號就選擇蓋牌，不願意公布第二層食品的流向，被大家罵爆之後隔了2天又改口，改成20%問題油成分以下的不用公布，只有20%以上才公布，後來被罵爆之後又改成忽然間開始非常看重這件事情，總統也才開始在臉書發言表達對這件事情的重視。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:20.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:32.885000+08:00","text":"卓院長一開始的蓋牌反反覆覆，在這段時間讓更多的國人吃到了致癌物，到目前為止卻一直沒有告訴大家到底發生的原因是什麼，可是不道歉就是不道歉。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:33.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:41.100909+08:00","text":"我不知道你還有沒有在關心立法院發生的事，在上禮拜二的食安專報，謝龍介委員問卓院長：你願意道歉嗎？","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:41.282727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:46.919091+08:00","text":"卓院長說：我都已經深表遺憾了，要深切檢討，不然怎麼樣，今天是道歉專報嗎？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:47.100909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:49.010000+08:00","text":"就是傲慢到不行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:49.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:59.886667+08:00","text":"但如果是江宜樺，2014年民進黨要求江宜樺道歉、衛福部部長下臺，江宜樺在國會鞠躬向國人表達抱歉。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:00.108889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:06.970000+08:00","text":"我想問一下院長，如果今天還是你當行政院院長的話，你會用謙卑的態度道歉嗎？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:07.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:12.198182+08:00","text":"還是一樣拗到底，就是說我已經深刻反省，又怎麼樣？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:13.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:15.120000+08:00","text":"你會用哪個態度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:15.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:16.386667+08:00","text":"謙卑是我一向的做法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:16.653333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:17.186667+08:00","text":"你會道歉嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:18.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:20.450000+08:00","text":"這是假設性的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:20.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:21.900000+08:00","text":"又是假設性問題，又不回答？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:21.900000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:23.316667+08:00","text":"當然啊，因為你要看事實的……","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:23.316667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:24.538889+08:00","text":"現在如果您是行政院長的話。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:24.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:30.483333+08:00","text":"這是假設性問題，「如果」就是假如你是，所以這是假設性問題，對不對？這是……","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:31.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:33.136667+08:00","text":"但是你說謙卑是你的態度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:33.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:35.247778+08:00","text":"對，謙卑一向是我的態度。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:35.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:50.379091+08:00","text":"現在行政院講他們沒有蓋牌，而是廠商蓋牌，但是我們講的行政院蓋牌是指7月3號它第一時間不願意公布第二層的流向，那是我們講的蓋牌，到7月5號才公布20%，這段期間大家不斷在吃「苯駢芘」，對不對？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:52.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:54.164286+08:00","text":"這樣算謙卑嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:54.894444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:58.316667+08:00","text":"而且民進黨發言人說：又不是我逼你吃的，跟我大小聲幹嘛？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:59.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:05.104706+08:00","text":"民進黨的議員說725上街頭就是在野黨利用無知的民眾。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:05.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:07.186154+08:00","text":"現在民眾希望吃的健康就是無知喔？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:08.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:10.274286+08:00","text":"你覺得夠謙卑嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:10.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:12.297778+08:00","text":"這不是假設性的問題吧？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:14.714286+08:00","text":"你覺得夠謙卑嗎？院長。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:17.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:21.788182+08:00","text":"對，這不是我們今天質詢的問題。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:21.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:27.864737+08:00","text":"我知道不是，但是因為現在國人最關心這件事情，而你跟大家不一樣的地方在於你當過行政院長，所以從一開始到現在才會有人問油的問題嘛。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:27.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:29.816154+08:00","text":"我覺得質詢應該問質詢的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:29.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:37.170000+08:00","text":"我現在就問這件事，這是民眾所關心，是大家關心的問題。","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:37.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:39.570000+08:00","text":"超過9分鐘了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:39.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:42.706667+08:00","text":"好，我知道，不好意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:43.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:48.915000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講你會秉持知識分子的風骨，言所當言，但到最後有點批評執政黨時，你又縮回去了。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:48.915000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:49.915000+08:00","text":"沒有，我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:49.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:55.066154+08:00","text":"我希望中研院院長陳建仁可以跳脫政黨，該……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:55.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:56.720000+08:00","text":"我一定會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:57.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:58.997778+08:00","text":"該講什麼就講什麼。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:59.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:00.720000+08:00","text":"我一定會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:00.720000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:01.720000+08:00","text":"不要懼怕，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:01.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:02.934286+08:00","text":"但是你不要質詢不該質詢的題目。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:03.791429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:04.934286+08:00","text":"這怎麼會不該質詢？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:05.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:12.970000+08:00","text":"你還管我要質詢什麼，院長太傲慢了吧，大家關心這一題嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:13.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:14.820000+08:00","text":"中研院沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:15.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:20.934286+08:00","text":"中研院跟什麼都有關，中研院院長做研究，研究就要與事實接軌，所以中研院院長和什麼都有關。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:20.934286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:21.934286+08:00","text":"無限上綱。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:21.664444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:26.553333+08:00","text":"沒有無限上綱，中研院學術就是要與事實做連結，謝謝。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:27.053333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:31.910476+08:00","text":"好，謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，也請院長回座。","quality":0.176},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:32.210476+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:49.067619+08:00","text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束，對於委員質詢的時候，要求提供的相關資料或者來不及答復的部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:49.367619+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:55:02.224762+08:00","text":"另外，今天有林宜瑾委員、傅崐萁委員、吳宗憲委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":763,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時37分）主席，麻煩請院長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，有請院長。"],["陳院長建仁：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：院長好，先恭喜院長。因為今天是院長第一次來，想跟院長請教幾個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["葉委員元之：第一個，院長您在之前擔任副總統的時候，主要是在推動年金改革，我記得你那時候為了推動，也告訴大家其實你也會受到影響。您當時說退休之後，你可領10萬元，但是如果改革之後，每個月是領6萬3,000元，若省吃儉用是夠的，以身作則，表示不是只有大家受影響，你也有受影響。但實際上你完全沒受到影響，為什麼呢？因為你從2017年到現在2026年都還沒退休，你在2020年卸下副總統的職務，應該沒多久就立刻接聘了中研院的特聘研究員，當時月薪也是49萬。","再來，特聘研究員做到2023年就當行政院院長，但你那時候可能就是……我不知道，你有做個承諾，因為你告訴大家說，其實你也沒有那麼喜歡當官，行政院院長就是你最後的公職，但沒有想到行政院院長卸任之後，你又回特聘研究員，現在又接了中研院院長，其實你有打破你當時的說法。我是有看到你早上有回應說學術工作不一樣，學術工作你就做特聘研究員就好了，為什麼一定要做院長？這不一樣，你如果不是做行政職、公職的話，你不用來這裡，我們不會去質詢特聘研究員，所以還是不一樣。"],["陳院長建仁：院長的工作是同仁推薦提名，由同仁提名、遴選委員會審查，再經由我們的評議會投票……"],["葉委員元之：當然有程序嘛！不可能是從天而降，我的意思是說你個人的意願，因為那個時候擔任行政院院長時，你就說那是你最後的公職，其實真的是……"],["陳院長建仁：以往的院長都是從院士當中選的……"],["葉委員元之：不是，這兩回事。別的特聘研究員沒有說他的前一個工作是他的最後公職，但您有這樣的承諾嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：就看工作的定義。"],["葉委員元之：可能因為你做過副總統這麼高的位置，再去接行政院長，也許你覺得要給社會大眾承諾：這是我最後的公職。可是下來之後你又接了中研院院長，我覺得這就是打破承諾。早上我有聽你回答其他委員時提到的那個說法，但我覺得你喜歡學術是一回事，但再任公職又是另外一回事，這是一個承諾問題。","我現在就你接任中研院院長這件事跟你請教。第一個，院長現在是75歲，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["葉委員元之：我們都知道中研院院長可以做5年，所以你卸任時大概是80歲；中研院院長可以再任一次，而再接一次可能會到85歲卸任。目前應該是做得好就會繼續連任，沒錯吧？"],["陳院長建仁：我是天主教徒，天主的安排才是我最後的依歸。"],["葉委員元之：這是什麼相關？我是問你這任做到80歲……"],["陳院長建仁：我現在的安排就是做到80歲。"],["葉委員元之：到時候沒有考慮要連任，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：對於延不延任我講過……"],["葉委員元之：到時候看天主的安排？"],["陳院長建仁：說老實話，擔任中研院院長我也掙扎一段時間。"],["葉委員元之：也掙扎過？意思就是目前的規劃只到80歲，但到時候再看看，對不對？如果做得好或是有人再推薦你，你就繼續做？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這是假設性的問題。"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係。以前中研院院長年紀最大退休的是李遠哲？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，你搞錯了，是吳大猷。"],["葉委員元之：吳大猷幾歲退？"],["陳院長建仁：從他開始擔任，我記得是……"],["葉委員元之：退下來時候。"],["陳院長建仁：我記得是87還88歲。"],["葉委員元之：所以你就算85歲退，也沒有超過他。"],["陳院長建仁：我想這是假設性的問題，今天在這裡討論這個沒有意思。"],["葉委員元之：沒有意思？好，沒關係。","第二個就不是假設性問題了。我們都期許中研院院長要行政中立，但過去因為你的政治背景比較多，也輔選過非常多次，你在你的位置上，尤其是在特聘研究員的位置上也有做過輔選，不知道現在當了院長還會不會輔選？我記得2022年你還是特聘研究員時，擔任民進黨臺北市長候選人陳時中的競選主任委員，多次幫他站臺。那時候你說是按照規定，雖然是按照規定，但相較其他的特聘研究員，你站臺的次數與參與政黨活動的次數明顯高於其他特聘研究員。現在又不一樣了，現在是中研院院長……"],["陳院長建仁：就不可以了。"],["葉委員元之：絕對不會去輔選？不會參加輔選？"],["陳院長建仁：這在行政中立法裡規定得很清楚，我做什麼角色就扮演什麼角色。"],["葉委員元之：一定不會參與輔選？對於幫政黨背書這些呢？"],["陳院長建仁：你現在又問了很多假設性的問題……"],["葉委員元之：這不是假設性問題！這不是假設性問題！"],["陳院長建仁：該遵守行政中立的我一定遵守……"],["葉委員元之：這個不是假設性問題。我覺得前任的廖俊智院長就蠻有風骨，譬如剛剛其他委員在講能源問題，因為行政院一直告訴大家臺灣不缺電，但廖俊智院長根據他的分析研究……其實那時候我有在這邊問他，他就擺明了說：2050年要做到淨零碳排，同時間又要不缺電是非常困難的事情。我覺得他就有把知識分子的擔憂講出來……"],["陳院長建仁：我也會講……"],["葉委員元之：而且他的數據跟行政院的數據不一樣。因為行政院總是喜歡粉飾太平，但中研院的研究不一樣，所以他就很大聲講出來。我們期許過去……"],["陳院長建仁：我也會evidence-based，事實到哪裡我就講到哪裡，絕對沒有所謂的政黨考慮，你放心。"],["葉委員元之：再來，剛剛我提到年紀問題，其實並不是說年紀大不好。雖然年紀大，但能夠奉獻社會都是好事。我之前有一個提案在此跟院長報告，因為你做過行政院院長，所以跟你報告，畢竟我很關心教育。","現在教育現場發生教師荒，找不到老師。有的考上正式老師但不報到；代理老師……以前都說有流浪老師，現在是連代理老師也找不到，即便幾十招也招找不到人。其中一個原因當然就是環境不好，老師不受到尊重，被濫訴；有一部分原因是因為業界的薪資比較高，所以理化老師比較難找，總之有很多原因。","為此我提了一個案，也就是當學校找不到老師時怎麼辦呢？可以拜託退休老師回來幫忙。不過退休老師有受再就業的薪資上限，不能超過最低薪資，所以能幫的忙就有限。由於有行政人員跟我講這件事，我說我來修法，至少讓那些願意回來幫忙的退休老師可以在薪資上限這點有些彈性，不要受到限制。因為現在是找不到人所以請他們回來，結果被民進黨立委、被民進黨附隨組織公督盟亂罵，說這是在養雙薪肥貓，說我擋了年輕人的升遷。公督盟說這就是公務人員能撈就撈，能混就混！我不能接受這樣的說法，人家是回來幫忙，結果罵人家能混就混，現在校園如果那麼好待的話，學校還需要去拜託退休老師回來嗎？怎麼可以罵人家能混就混！只要退休老師回來就是肥貓嗎？院長，您不算退休，可是也算離開公職再換一個工作，你可以接受我剛剛講的，民進黨立委、還有其附隨組織公督盟這樣的亂罵嗎？你可以接受嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：在學校缺乏師資的情況下，如果有人願意回來幫忙是一件好事情，而且現在的人健康狀況也很好，其教學經驗也對學生的教育有所幫助。"],["葉委員元之：是嘛！為什麼公督盟要說他們能撈就撈，能混就混？可以這樣亂罵嗎？我們只是要務實解決問題。我剛剛問你年紀，但我沒有說不好，如果你剛剛說願意再做一任，其實我會說很棒，大家要就事論事……"],["陳院長建仁：這是假設性問題……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，所以我不為難你，因為你可能有不好說的原因，而且我問這個問題不是要質疑你。我覺得好的人才……就像我剛剛講的，他們回來幫忙是為了解決問題，居然被罵成這樣子？你在公部門服務很久，也應該出來講講話。","再來我問一下食安，請主席再給我一點時間，我請教食安問題。在我印象當中，這任立委剛就任時就發生幾起食安事件，蘇丹紅，還有……"],["陳院長建仁：西布特羅。"],["葉委員元之：西布特羅的事情。所以當時的行政院長陳建仁有到立法院做食安報告，我有機會看到你的報告。您當時就講說……我把我記得的食安報告用幾個字總結：馬英九好爛爛，蔡英文好棒棒。那時候你的報告呈現了這個狀況，你提到在馬政府時代，2008年有奶粉的三聚氰胺事件，2011年有塑化劑事件，2013年有毒澱粉事件，2013年、2014年還有油品問題，很爛，是系統性問題！但是在2016年蔡英文積極推動食安五環之後，這些食安問題都從系統性問題轉為個案，包括西布特羅，包括蘇丹紅，這些都是個案，個案沒辦法，我們只能解決系統性問題。可是你卸任之後，你是在2024年5月卸任，最近又發生食安問題，又有癌油的事情，請問這是個案還是系統性問題？"],["陳院長建仁：這次因為廠商延遲通報，隱蔽資料，使相關油品下架受到影響，而且不只是油品本身……"],["葉委員元之：所以是系統性問題？還是個案？"],["陳院長建仁：造成不同行業都受到影響，所以這是一個系統性問題。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以你在2024年的食安報告就有點誇大了。實際上食安五環就是有漏洞……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有……"],["葉委員元之：如果沒有漏洞，怎麼後面會發生系統性問題？"],["陳院長建仁：對於西布特羅，我想委員很清楚，我不用再講，西布特羅就只有一個實驗室……"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，我現在不是講個案。因為你那時候講的意思是，食安五環已經讓食安得到很好的保護，所以不會再發生系統性問題了。那時候是蠻自信地講出這樣的話……"],["陳院長建仁：這一次是廠商檢驗出來，但沒有通報……"],["葉委員元之：不管！當然是！院長，後來在2024年3月，你去參加食安會報之後裁示，要加強後市場管理……"],["陳院長建仁：Postmarket……"],["葉委員元之：就是源頭管理，你說需要食品業者嚴以自律，並加強自主檢驗，而且要確定原料安全性。其實那時候你就看到問題了，看到問題卻沒辦法杜絕，所以現在又發生一樣的問題，就代表有一些應作為而未作為……"],["陳院長建仁：這是因為不肖廠商……"],["葉委員元之：當然不能都靠廠商！如果都靠廠商的話政府要幹什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：所以中央跟地方要有密切合作……"],["葉委員元之：院長，我的意思是那時候就有一點太過自信，你就覺得馬英九很爛，蔡政府很棒，但實際上賴政府後來也發生系統性的問題，所以我覺得政府不能太傲慢，要謙卑、要謙卑，我先問你一個問題……"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有傲慢……"],["葉委員元之：你那時候就是志得意滿，覺得馬英九很爛爛、蔡政府好棒棒……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我講是事實，事實上西布特羅真的是個案。"],["葉委員元之：可是後來又有蘇丹紅嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：蘇丹紅就是兩個廠商進口的……"],["葉委員元之：是不是系統性問題？"],["陳院長建仁：當時是雲林縣發現的，對不對？"],["葉委員元之：這是不是系統性問題？"],["陳院長建仁：結果上游有沒有回收？"],["葉委員元之：我現在講的是你的食安報告，你當時食安報告的意思是，自從蔡政府推出食安五環之後都沒有系統性問題，都是個案，就是很志得意滿、我們很棒。"],["陳院長建仁：這是事實。"],["葉委員元之：但是現在又有啦，所以是賴的問題嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：現在這一次的狀況剛才講過……"],["葉委員元之：所以是賴的問題嗎？所以系統性問題一直都存在，只是看它什麼時候爆發嘛！所以政府要謙卑……"],["陳院長建仁：謙卑我……"],["葉委員元之：我想問院長，今天卓院長到現在都不願意道歉，他雖然感到不好意思，但不是對整件事情道歉，他只有針對一開始沒有稽查到後來又發現的1批問題油道歉，一開始只有29批，後來又冒出1批，他對這件事情感到抱歉。但對整件事情，包括一開始食藥署在7月3號就選擇蓋牌，不願意公布第二層食品的流向，被大家罵爆之後隔了2天又改口，改成20%問題油成分以下的不用公布，只有20%以上才公布，後來被罵爆之後又改成忽然間開始非常看重這件事情，總統也才開始在臉書發言表達對這件事情的重視。卓院長一開始的蓋牌反反覆覆，在這段時間讓更多的國人吃到了致癌物，到目前為止卻一直沒有告訴大家到底發生的原因是什麼，可是不道歉就是不道歉。","我不知道你還有沒有在關心立法院發生的事，在上禮拜二的食安專報，謝龍介委員問卓院長：你願意道歉嗎？卓院長說：我都已經深表遺憾了，要深切檢討，不然怎麼樣，今天是道歉專報嗎？就是傲慢到不行。但如果是江宜樺，2014年民進黨要求江宜樺道歉、衛福部部長下臺，江宜樺在國會鞠躬向國人表達抱歉。我想問一下院長，如果今天還是你當行政院院長的話，你會用謙卑的態度道歉嗎？還是一樣拗到底，就是說我已經深刻反省，又怎麼樣？你會用哪個態度？"],["陳院長建仁：謙卑是我一向的做法。"],["葉委員元之：你會道歉嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這是假設性的問題。"],["葉委員元之：又是假設性問題，又不回答？"],["陳院長建仁：當然啊，因為你要看事實的……"],["葉委員元之：現在如果您是行政院長的話。"],["陳院長建仁：這是假設性問題，「如果」就是假如你是，所以這是假設性問題，對不對？這是……"],["葉委員元之：但是你說謙卑是你的態度。"],["陳院長建仁：對，謙卑一向是我的態度。"],["葉委員元之：現在行政院講他們沒有蓋牌，而是廠商蓋牌，但是我們講的行政院蓋牌是指7月3號它第一時間不願意公布第二層的流向，那是我們講的蓋牌，到7月5號才公布20%，這段期間大家不斷在吃「苯駢芘」，對不對？這樣算謙卑嗎？而且民進黨發言人說：又不是我逼你吃的，跟我大小聲幹嘛？民進黨的議員說725上街頭就是在野黨利用無知的民眾。現在民眾希望吃的健康就是無知喔？你覺得夠謙卑嗎？這不是假設性的問題吧？你覺得夠謙卑嗎？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：對，這不是我們今天質詢的問題。"],["葉委員元之：我知道不是，但是因為現在國人最關心這件事情，而你跟大家不一樣的地方在於你當過行政院長，所以從一開始到現在才會有人問油的問題嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得質詢應該問質詢的問題。"],["葉委員元之：我現在就問這件事，這是民眾所關心，是大家關心的問題。"],["主席：超過9分鐘了。"],["葉委員元之：好，我知道，不好意思。你剛剛講你會秉持知識分子的風骨，言所當言，但到最後有點批評執政黨時，你又縮回去了。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我……"],["葉委員元之：我希望中研院院長陳建仁可以跳脫政黨，該……"],["陳院長建仁：我一定會。"],["葉委員元之：該講什麼就講什麼。"],["陳院長建仁：我一定會。"],["葉委員元之：不要懼怕，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：但是你不要質詢不該質詢的題目。"],["葉委員元之：這怎麼會不該質詢？你還管我要質詢什麼，院長太傲慢了吧，大家關心這一題嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：中研院沒有……"],["葉委員元之：中研院跟什麼都有關，中研院院長做研究，研究就要與事實接軌，所以中研院院長和什麼都有關。"],["陳院長建仁：無限上綱。"],["葉委員元之：沒有無限上綱，中研院學術就是要與事實做連結，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，也請院長回座。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束，對於委員質詢的時候，要求提供的相關資料或者來不及答復的部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。","另外，今天有林宜瑾委員、傅崐萁委員、吳宗憲委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-21","speakers":["伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","柯志恩","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","蔡春綢","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","羅智強","吳沛憶","洪孟楷","許忠信","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","林宜瑾","傅崐萁","吳宗憲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-20"],"gazette_id":"1156501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長陳建仁列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}