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CMK48"},{"start":50.62,"end":53.62,"text":"那金額大概是差不多"},{"start":53.62,"end":55.62,"text":"當然這個有些已經到貨"},{"start":55.62,"end":56.62,"text":"有些可能還沒"},{"start":56.62,"end":58.62,"text":"這些的狀況目前"},{"start":58.62,"end":61.62,"text":"是不是國防部比較officially承認的"},{"start":61.62,"end":63.62,"text":"比較屬於重大的延宕的項目"},{"start":63.62,"end":66.62,"text":"方委員那個您上面這個這兩個數字"},{"start":66.62,"end":68.62,"text":"可能都跟實際有點落差"},{"start":68.62,"end":72.62,"text":"第一個 我們目前執行中的案子一共是25案"},{"start":72.62,"end":74.62,"text":"然後已經"},{"start":74.62,"end":76.62,"text":"實際執行中的案子一共25案"},{"start":76.62,"end":78.62,"text":"總金額的部分是"},{"start":78.62,"end":81.62,"text":"換算成台幣大概是9500多億台幣"},{"start":81.62,"end":85.62,"text":"那在這9500多億台幣裡面"},{"start":85.62,"end":87.62,"text":"已經完成交付的部分"},{"start":87.62,"end":89.62,"text":"已經超過5700億"},{"start":89.62,"end":91.62,"text":"那也就是說"},{"start":91.62,"end":93.62,"text":"目前還沒有執行中"},{"start":93.62,"end":96.62,"text":"還在執行中的最大的一個延宕的部分"},{"start":96.62,"end":98.62,"text":"就是16V Block軌道"},{"start":98.62,"end":100.62,"text":"那這個案子裡面"},{"start":100.62,"end":102.62,"text":"2400..."},{"start":103.78,"end":105.78,"text":"M48那個重煤的部分"},{"start":105.78,"end":107.78,"text":"跟AGM-147"},{"start":107.78,"end":109.78,"text":"因為還沒有完成預約"},{"start":109.78,"end":112.78,"text":"所以他的初期付款的兩個案子的值是很低的"},{"start":112.78,"end":115.78,"text":"目前這兩個案子已經付出去的"},{"start":115.78,"end":117.78,"text":"大概是台幣4億多"},{"start":117.78,"end":123.78,"text":"但是還是跟我們當時所提出來的建軍的規劃還是delay嗎"},{"start":124.23,"end":126.23,"text":"對這兩個案子delay"},{"start":142.79,"end":144.79,"text":"除了這樣子之外"},{"start":144.79,"end":147.79,"text":"就是說我們有沒有去做歷屆的統計"},{"start":147.79,"end":153.79,"text":"就是目前整個我們歷屆這樣子的採購的延宕的一個項目"},{"start":153.79,"end":155.79,"text":"原因的分析"},{"start":155.79,"end":157.79,"text":"然後以及因為這樣的延宕"},{"start":157.79,"end":160.79,"text":"所以我在當時的戰略的準備"},{"start":160.79,"end":162.79,"text":"有沒有一些的配套"},{"start":162.79,"end":164.79,"text":"有沒有做這樣子的一個分析"},{"start":164.79,"end":167.79,"text":"我們這個部分我們當然做過分析"},{"start":167.79,"end":170.79,"text":"跟我們目前對美軍購的部分"},{"start":170.79,"end":172.79,"text":"受到最大..."},{"start":172.79,"end":174.79,"text":"因為今天的題目他沒有對美軍購"},{"start":174.79,"end":176.79,"text":"我是說軍購的延宕"},{"start":176.79,"end":178.79,"text":"所以我意思是說"},{"start":179.77,"end":181.77,"text":"可能有對美軍購的部分"},{"start":181.77,"end":183.77,"text":"對不對對美軍購的部分"},{"start":183.77,"end":186.77,"text":"那另外一個的話可能就是我們自己要照"},{"start":186.77,"end":189.77,"text":"對不對不管是跟國外的技術合作要照"},{"start":189.77,"end":191.77,"text":"那這個"},{"start":191.55,"end":193.55,"text":"我們召委也是非常關心"},{"start":193.55,"end":195.55,"text":"對不對不管海關全國人都關心"},{"start":195.55,"end":197.55,"text":"我經濟部去考察台船的時候"},{"start":197.55,"end":199.55,"text":"他也是說"},{"start":199.55,"end":201.55,"text":"這個也是造成我的一些的工廠"},{"start":201.55,"end":203.55,"text":"對不對的一些產能上的混亂"},{"start":203.55,"end":207.55,"text":"等等這些都有一些連帶的影響"},{"start":209.11,"end":211.11,"text":"為什麼這樣"},{"start":229.35,"end":231.35,"text":"就是說實在的這個凡事都有計畫"},{"start":231.35,"end":233.35,"text":"但計畫永遠趕不上變化"},{"start":233.35,"end":235.35,"text":"就如同你們今天分析的"},{"start":235.35,"end":237.35,"text":"不管是供應鏈"},{"start":237.35,"end":239.35,"text":"不管是廠商自我感覺異常良好"},{"start":239.35,"end":243.35,"text":"對不對或者是當時我們在訂這個需求規格"},{"start":243.35,"end":246.35,"text":"可是因為就在需要有一些的需求的變更"},{"start":246.35,"end":248.35,"text":"這我們都可以理解"},{"start":248.35,"end":250.35,"text":"對不對但是"},{"start":250.3,"end":253.3,"text":"我們就產業的採購國防的採購也都是一樣"},{"start":253.3,"end":255.3,"text":"那個大體的精神是這樣"},{"start":255.3,"end":257.3,"text":"我會去把它分析出來"},{"start":257.3,"end":259.3,"text":"然後因為這樣子的延宕"},{"start":259.3,"end":261.3,"text":"所以造成比如說"},{"start":261.3,"end":263.3,"text":"我的製程"},{"start":263.3,"end":264.3,"text":"因為這樣子的原物料"},{"start":264.3,"end":266.3,"text":"因為這樣的東西我形成了"},{"start":266.3,"end":268.3,"text":"不管是戰略的空窗或什麼"},{"start":268.3,"end":270.3,"text":"我現在意思說假設"},{"start":270.49,"end":274.49,"text":"我去把省區部我們預算中心以及這些相關的報告"},{"start":274.49,"end":276.49,"text":"做出來歷屆的"},{"start":276.49,"end":278.49,"text":"我大概整理出來像這些可能都是"},{"start":278.49,"end":282.49,"text":"那這些有些可能是採購的"},{"start":282.49,"end":284.49,"text":"那另外還有一種就是說"},{"start":284.85,"end":286.85,"text":"像這個是我們自己建的"},{"start":287.55,"end":288.55,"text":"就連我們自己建"},{"start":288.55,"end":291.55,"text":"不管是左營二港口或是特戰獨立等等"},{"start":291.55,"end":293.55,"text":"這是國內製造的"},{"start":293.55,"end":295.55,"text":"對不對那因為我們委制它"},{"start":295.55,"end":296.55,"text":"造成的delay"},{"start":296.55,"end":298.55,"text":"這是第二類型"},{"start":299.09,"end":301.09,"text":"第三種類型是說"},{"start":301.09,"end":302.09,"text":"我也買了"},{"start":302.09,"end":303.09,"text":"他也交了"},{"start":303.09,"end":305.09,"text":"可是我在驗的時候發現"},{"start":305.09,"end":307.09,"text":"規格不符合"},{"start":307.32,"end":308.32,"text":"那規格不符合"},{"start":308.32,"end":310.32,"text":"我們也不能說他採購延宕"},{"start":310.32,"end":312.32,"text":"但是就是對我的戰略"},{"start":312.32,"end":314.32,"text":"或者是對當初的行程要求"},{"start":314.32,"end":316.32,"text":"所以我的意思我舉例子就是說"},{"start":316.32,"end":318.32,"text":"我們應該"},{"start":318.88,"end":320.88,"text":"為什麼今天把採購室主任叫上來"},{"start":320.88,"end":323.88,"text":"我是身為一個採購的一個主管的話"},{"start":323.88,"end":325.88,"text":"我會把過去這些歷屆分析出來"},{"start":325.88,"end":327.88,"text":"那原因是什麼"},{"start":327.88,"end":328.88,"text":"對不對"},{"start":328.88,"end":329.88,"text":"然後我們怎麼去改善"},{"start":329.88,"end":332.88,"text":"然後這個改善的措施將來是怎麼樣子"},{"start":332.88,"end":333.88,"text":"是不是"},{"start":333.88,"end":334.88,"text":"有"},{"start":335.42,"end":336.42,"text":"真的改善"},{"start":336.42,"end":338.42,"text":"就是你一次滾動式的檢討"},{"start":339.72,"end":342.72,"text":"我們今天沒有說要跟挑各位毛病都沒有"},{"start":342.72,"end":343.72,"text":"絕對都是各位不要看到"},{"start":343.72,"end":345.72,"text":"我就很defense這樣子"},{"start":345.72,"end":346.72,"text":"非常防禦性沒有"},{"start":346.72,"end":348.72,"text":"就是全力跟各位探討"},{"start":348.72,"end":350.72,"text":"因為這些東西都會碰到問題"},{"start":352.01,"end":354.01,"text":"像創未來我不曉得中科院院長在吧"},{"start":356.3,"end":358.3,"text":"創未來我問一個問題"},{"start":358.3,"end":360.3,"text":"我今天不是要單獨問創未來"},{"start":360.3,"end":362.3,"text":"但是我現在的意思是說"},{"start":362.3,"end":363.3,"text":"創立未來的話"},{"start":363.3,"end":366.3,"text":"他當時在做我們是屬於研發型的採購"},{"start":366.3,"end":367.3,"text":"還是說"},{"start":368.34,"end":369.34,"text":"我那個項目下去之後"},{"start":369.34,"end":372.34,"text":"他就真的要交到軍隊去馬上使用的"},{"start":373.61,"end":375.61,"text":"反制無人機那一塊"},{"start":375.62,"end":377.62,"text":"這比較像研發型的採購"},{"start":377.62,"end":379.62,"text":"比較像研發型的採購"},{"start":379.62,"end":381.62,"text":"所以在研發的過程當中"},{"start":381.62,"end":383.62,"text":"如果有他跟我們一般的"},{"start":383.62,"end":385.62,"text":"馬上用的採購是不一樣"},{"start":385.62,"end":387.62,"text":"跟委員報告這個可能要分兩階段"},{"start":387.62,"end":391.62,"text":"這個陸軍參謀長之前已經做過充分的說明"},{"start":391.62,"end":394.62,"text":"報告委員您講這個最主要"},{"start":394.62,"end":396.62,"text":"他是一個研發"},{"start":396.62,"end":399.62,"text":"那我要簡單的說"},{"start":399.62,"end":400.62,"text":"就是我們"},{"start":401.4,"end":404.4,"text":"當時找了國內的這個廠商"},{"start":404.4,"end":408.4,"text":"他在各方面沒有辦法有一家"},{"start":408.4,"end":411.4,"text":"單獨能夠做出一個整合"},{"start":411.4,"end":413.4,"text":"因為那是在112年的"},{"start":413.4,"end":415.4,"text":"111年8月發生的事"},{"start":415.4,"end":418.4,"text":"在112年提出這樣的一個研發的需求"},{"start":418.4,"end":421.4,"text":"那所以是由4家的4系統商"},{"start":421.4,"end":424.4,"text":"我們那這個研究案的主要精神"},{"start":424.4,"end":426.4,"text":"其實就是在整合"},{"start":427.2,"end":429.2,"text":"我的意思是這樣子"},{"start":429.2,"end":431.2,"text":"因為我有做過這些採購"},{"start":431.2,"end":433.2,"text":"或者是上次的非常熟悉"},{"start":433.2,"end":435.2,"text":"所以為什麼一直這樣問的問題就是說"},{"start":435.2,"end":437.2,"text":"他如果是屬於研發型的採購"},{"start":437.2,"end":439.2,"text":"就一開始就是講清楚"},{"start":439.2,"end":441.2,"text":"他可以是落out"},{"start":441.2,"end":443.2,"text":"然後你研發了幾型之後"},{"start":443.2,"end":446.2,"text":"比如說我進到Prototype 1 2 3"},{"start":446.2,"end":447.2,"text":"不管是哪一個level"},{"start":447.2,"end":449.2,"text":"或是他的成熟度達不到"},{"start":449.2,"end":451.2,"text":"我們就要想辦法"},{"start":451.72,"end":453.72,"text":"要嘛就是找國內的法人再幫他"},{"start":453.72,"end":456.72,"text":"要嘛就是真的要再找另外一家"},{"start":456.72,"end":458.72,"text":"因為像當初我們在美商去做這些"},{"start":458.72,"end":460.72,"text":"美國的軍事系統的時候"},{"start":460.72,"end":463.72,"text":"他採取的措施就是Thotogram"},{"start":463.72,"end":465.72,"text":"以後今天這些委員在講的"},{"start":465.72,"end":468.72,"text":"你應該是多套研發多套採制"},{"start":468.72,"end":471.72,"text":"AB系統兩家廠商人員不能夠互通的"},{"start":471.72,"end":473.72,"text":"所以兩個同時並軌研發的時候"},{"start":473.72,"end":475.72,"text":"A有問題"},{"start":475.72,"end":476.72,"text":"那B不代表會有問題"},{"start":476.72,"end":478.72,"text":"因為完全是isolated的"},{"start":478.72,"end":480.72,"text":"所以我說你要把研發採購"},{"start":480.72,"end":482.72,"text":"跟這個所謂的"},{"start":482.72,"end":484.72,"text":"我真的要買上去就直接用了"},{"start":484.72,"end":486.72,"text":"這個東西是不太一樣"},{"start":486.72,"end":488.72,"text":"那在你的採購的標準跟程序"},{"start":488.72,"end":490.72,"text":"不然我覺得"},{"start":491.11,"end":493.11,"text":"他可能是一個好東西"},{"start":493.11,"end":494.11,"text":"也可能是幫國內自治"},{"start":494.11,"end":496.11,"text":"可是你們講不清楚嘛"},{"start":497.26,"end":499.26,"text":"這個是我給你的建議"},{"start":499.26,"end":500.26,"text":"是跟委員報告"},{"start":500.26,"end":501.26,"text":"因為一個是那個"},{"start":501.26,"end":504.26,"text":"112年的一個委託研究案"},{"start":504.26,"end":506.26,"text":"另外現在的這個驗收"},{"start":506.26,"end":509.26,"text":"沒有過的是113年開始的一個"},{"start":509.26,"end":511.26,"text":"26套的一個採購案"},{"start":511.26,"end":513.26,"text":"這兩個剛剛你有做過一些說明"},{"start":513.26,"end":514.26,"text":"對對我都知道"},{"start":514.26,"end":517.26,"text":"我是說因為如果他這26套採購案沒過"},{"start":517.26,"end":519.26,"text":"那表示他當時的研發的成果"},{"start":519.26,"end":521.26,"text":"是有問題的啦"},{"start":521.26,"end":522.26,"text":"有瑕疵啦"},{"start":522.26,"end":524.26,"text":"所以你看這個就不是了嘛"},{"start":524.26,"end":526.26,"text":"沒有必然的關係"},{"start":526.26,"end":528.26,"text":"這兩個案其實研究案"},{"start":528.26,"end":530.26,"text":"跟後面這個採購案沒有過"},{"start":530.26,"end":532.26,"text":"它其實沒有必然的關係"},{"start":532.26,"end":534.26,"text":"所以這兩個研發做到的人形不一樣"},{"start":536.03,"end":538.03,"text":"我剛才就說沒有必然的關係"},{"start":538.55,"end":540.55,"text":"不是沒有必然的關係"},{"start":540.55,"end":542.55,"text":"你這樣子邏輯上會有問題啦"},{"start":542.9,"end":544.9,"text":"反正中科院長知道我在講什麼"},{"start":544.9,"end":547.9,"text":"就是說你研發型的採購這邊完了"},{"start":547.9,"end":549.9,"text":"之後如果你確認他滿足一個標準"},{"start":549.9,"end":551.9,"text":"下一個當然是做你的採購"},{"start":551.9,"end":552.9,"text":"這沒有問題"},{"start":554.48,"end":556.48,"text":"我現在是說你要去分清楚"},{"start":556.48,"end":558.48,"text":"那將來這個會比較好"},{"start":558.48,"end":559.48,"text":"我再問一下"},{"start":559.48,"end":561.48,"text":"回去也再做個報告就是說"},{"start":562.14,"end":564.14,"text":"我們剛剛列的這些東西"},{"start":564.14,"end":566.14,"text":"我希望是這樣子"},{"start":566.14,"end":568.14,"text":"因為我今天問題很多"},{"start":568.14,"end":570.14,"text":"我來不及在五分鐘內做完"},{"start":570.14,"end":572.14,"text":"但是我要遵守這個朝偉的規定"},{"start":572.14,"end":574.14,"text":"所以其他的我就書面報告"},{"start":574.14,"end":576.14,"text":"我覺得光一個採購"},{"start":576.14,"end":579.14,"text":"請各位學習一下我們科技業產業界"},{"start":579.14,"end":581.14,"text":"那整個採購的儀表板"},{"start":581.14,"end":583.14,"text":"進度分析以及可能的backup"},{"start":583.14,"end":586.14,"text":"這些東西也是希望能夠確實做好"},{"start":586.14,"end":587.14,"text":"好不好"},{"start":587.14,"end":589.14,"text":"然後尤其想要在這邊要知道"},{"start":589.14,"end":590.14,"text":"你要告訴我"},{"start":590.14,"end":593.14,"text":"這裡頭歷練來採購的這些項目"},{"start":593.14,"end":595.14,"text":"哪一些是特別預算"},{"start":595.14,"end":596.14,"text":"哪些是年度預算"},{"start":596.14,"end":598.14,"text":"這個是我想要知道的"},{"start":598.14,"end":599.14,"text":"好不好 以上謝謝"},{"start":600.61,"end":601.61,"text":"謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:14.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:20.423333+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請國防部部長還有採購室主任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:20.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:22.430000+08:00","text":"請顧部長、採購室趙主任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:22.430000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:29.005714+08:00","text":"洪委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:29.005714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:51:30.434286+08:00","text":"部長好、主任好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:51:31.306667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:17.453333+08:00","text":"今天的題目是「國軍軍品採購履約爭議與違約致獲裝期程延宕採購策略精進作為」，首先問一下，我查了整個國防部在立法院的相關報告或者對外的說明，目前我們確認比較officially的包含F-16V、AGM-154C、MK-48，金額大概是差不多……當然有些已經到貨，有些可能還沒，這些狀況目前是不是國防部officially承認比較屬於重大的延宕項目？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:17.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:22.420000+08:00","text":"報告委員，您簡報上的這兩個數字可能都跟實際有點落差。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:22.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:54.334286+08:00","text":"第一個，我們目前實際執行中的案子一共25案，總金額的部分換算成臺幣大概是九千五百多億，在這九千五百多億臺幣裡面，已經完成交付的部分已經超過五千七百億，也就是目前還在執行中的最大延宕部分就是F-16V Block 70，這個案子裡面2,400億的軍……","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:54.334286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:52:58.530000+08:00","text":"那AGM跟MK-48都OK了？","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-20T11:52:58.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:11.494286+08:00","text":"MK-48重雷的部分跟AGM-154C因為還沒有完成議約，所以這兩個案子的初期付款的值是很低的，目前這兩個案子已經付出去大概臺幣四億多，所以……","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:11.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:17.335556+08:00","text":"但是跟當時所提出來的建軍規劃還是delay嘛。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:18.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:20.048182+08:00","text":"對，這兩個案子delay。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:20.048182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:36.790000+08:00","text":"對嘛，所以這是你們比較正式說明是delay的部分，現在不管它付不付款嘛，我現在是說正式跟我……比如假設原本是2026年要到，它可能現在變成是2028年，不管是什麼因素，可能就是延後、delay了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:36.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:56.540000+08:00","text":"除了這樣之外，有沒有去做歷屆的統計，就是對於歷屆採購延宕項目的原因分析，以及因為這樣的延宕，而在當時的戰略準備有沒有一些配套？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:56.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:53:58.623333+08:00","text":"有沒有做這樣子的分析？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-20T11:53:59.218571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:05.647143+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個部分我們當然做過分析，目前對美軍購的部分，受到最大……","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:06.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:27.857692+08:00","text":"不見得是對美軍購，因為今天的題目沒有對美軍購，我是說軍購的延宕，我的意思是一個可能有對美軍購的部分，另外一個可能就是我們自己要造，不管是跟國外的技術合作要不要造，這個部分召委也是非常關心啦，對不對？","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:28.011538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:29.396154+08:00","text":"不管海鯤號，全國人都關心啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:29.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:41.242308+08:00","text":"我和經濟部去考察台船的時候，他也是說這個也會造成一些工廠在產能上的混亂等等，這些都有連帶的影響。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:43.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:44.710000+08:00","text":"我為什麼這樣問？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:44.710000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:50.970952+08:00","text":"因為我今天看這個報告，我是想知道到底有沒有做過這樣的分析？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:50.970952+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:54:57.231905+08:00","text":"你們都說有嘛，可能事後交個報告給我好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:54:57.231905+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T11:55:03.492857+08:00","text":"因為我們在產業裡頭做採購很重要的事情，就是希望如期如質嘛！","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:55:03.492857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:55:42.118182+08:00","text":"但是說實在的，凡事都有計畫，但計畫永遠趕不上變化，就如同你們今天分析的，不管是供應鏈或是廠商自我感覺異常良好，抑或當時訂的需求規格因為作戰需要有一些變更，這些我們都可以理解，但是產業採購、國防採購都一樣，大體的精神是這樣，就是去把它分析出來，因為這樣子的延宕，比如製程因為原物料等等因素，而形成了戰略空窗什麼的。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:55:42.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:56:07.913636+08:00","text":"我現在意思是假設我把審計部、預算中心以及這些歷屆相關的報告整理出來，像這些可能都是，有些可能是採購的，另外還有一種就是像這個是我們自己建的，不管是左營二港口擴建、特戰突擊艇等等，這些是國內製造的，對不對？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:56:08.277273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:56:12.216667+08:00","text":"因為我們委製，造成了delay，這是第二類型。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:56:13.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:56:28.138182+08:00","text":"第三種類型是我也買了，它也交貨了，可是檢驗時發現規格不符合，針對規格不符合我們也不能算它採購延宕，但是對我們的戰力或者是跟當初的要求不合。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:56:32.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:56:52.238182+08:00","text":"為什麼今天把採購室主任叫上來，我舉例子就是如果我身為採購主管的話，我會把過去歷屆報告分析出來，了解原因是什麼，然後怎麼去改善，以及這個改善措施將來怎麼樣執行、是不是有真的改善，就是滾動式的檢討。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:56:53.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:57:07.743333+08:00","text":"我今天沒有要挑各位毛病，我都沒有，各位不要看到我就很defense，非常地防禦性，我就是全力跟各位探討，因為這些東西都會碰到問題，像創未來，不曉得中科院院長在嗎？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:57:10.966667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:57:20.112500+08:00","text":"我問一個問題，我今天不是要單獨問創未來，但我意思是創未來當時在做，是屬於研發型的採購？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:57:20.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:57:25.940000+08:00","text":"還是那個項目下去之後，就真的要交到軍隊來馬上使用？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:57:27.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:57:29.360000+08:00","text":"關於反制無人機那一塊。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-20T11:57:29.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:57:31.420000+08:00","text":"這個比較像研發型的採購。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:57:31.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:57:39.420000+08:00","text":"比較像研發型的採購，所以在研發的過程當中，如果有，它跟我們一般馬上用的採購不一樣？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:57:39.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:57:45.397778+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個可能要分兩階段，陸軍參謀長之前已經做過充分的說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳參謀長建義","start":"2026-07-20T11:57:45.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:57:50.286667+08:00","text":"報告委員，您講的這個部分，最主要它是一個研發。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳參謀長建義","start":"2026-07-20T11:57:51.048571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:58:20.114286+08:00","text":"我簡單地說，就是我們當時找了國內的廠商，但在各方面沒有一家有辦法能夠單獨做出整合，那是111年8月發生的事，在112年提出這樣的研發需求，所以是由四家的次系統商，我們這個研究案的主要精神其實就在整合。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:58:23.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:58:34.950000+08:00","text":"好，因為我也做過採購，所以我非常熟悉，所以我為什麼這樣問，就是如果它是屬於研發型的採購，一開始就講清楚，它可以roll out對不對？","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:58:35.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:58:50.489231+08:00","text":"然後你研發了幾型之後，比如進到prototype 1、2、3，不管是哪一個level，或是它的成熟度達不到，我們就要想辦法，要嘛就是找國內的法人再幫它，要嘛就是要找另外一家。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:58:50.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:59:02.220000+08:00","text":"因為像當初我們在美商做這些美國軍事系統的時候，採取的措施就是Fault Tolerance，也就是今天這些委員在講的，一定是多套研發、多套採製啊！","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:59:02.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:59:33.037778+08:00","text":"AB系統兩家廠商，人員不能夠互通的嘛，所以兩個同時併軌研發的時候，A有問題，那B不代表會有問題，因為完全是isolated的，所以你要把研發採購跟所謂我真的要買上去就直接用了，這是不太一樣的，在你的採購標準跟程序，我覺得它可能是一個好東西，也可能是幫國內自製，可是你們講不清楚，這個是我給你的建議。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T11:59:33.426667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:59:47.106154+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為一個是112年的委託研究案，另外，現在這個驗收沒有過的是113年開始的一個26套採購案，這兩個剛剛已經有做過一些說明，兩個不一樣。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T11:59:47.426667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T11:59:58.078182+08:00","text":"對，我都知道，我是說因為如果這26套採購案沒過，表示它當時的研發成果是有問題、有瑕疵的，所以你看這個就不是了嘛，所以我說部長剛剛回答……","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"陳參謀長建義","start":"2026-07-20T11:59:58.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:00:06.060000+08:00","text":"沒有必然的關係，其實研究案跟後面這個採購案沒有過，這兩案其實沒有必然的關係。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:00:06.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:00:08.126667+08:00","text":"所以這兩個研發做的原型不一樣？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳參謀長建義","start":"2026-07-20T12:00:10.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:00:11.863333+08:00","text":"我剛才就說沒有必然的關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:00:12.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:00:32.257778+08:00","text":"不是沒有必然的關係，你這樣子邏輯上會有問題，反正中科院院長知道我在講什麼，就是研發型採購這邊完了之後，如果你確認它滿足標準，下一個當然是做採購，這沒有問題，我現在意思是你要去分清楚，將來會比較好。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:00:32.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:00:47.958182+08:00","text":"我再問一下，你們回去也再做個報告，就是我們剛剛列的這些東西，因為我今天要問的問題很多，來不及在5分鐘內問完，但是我要遵守召委的規定，所以其他部分就請書面報告回復。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:00:48.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:01:00.806667+08:00","text":"我覺得光是一個採購，請各位學習一下科技業、產業界，整個採購的儀表板、進度分析以及可能的back up，這些東西我希望能夠確實做好，好不好？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:01:01.473333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:01:09.997143+08:00","text":"尤其我在這邊想要知道，你要告訴我這裡頭歷年來採購的項目，哪一些是特別預算，哪些是年度預算？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:01:10.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:01:11.917778+08:00","text":"這個是我想要知道的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:01:12.568571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:01:12.997143+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:01:14.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:01:15.110000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T12:01:15.610000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:01:19.324286+08:00","text":"接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["洪委員毓祥：（11時51分）謝謝主席，有請國防部部長還有採購室主任。"],["主席：請顧部長、採購室趙主任。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員毓祥：部長好、主任好。今天的題目是「國軍軍品採購履約爭議與違約致獲裝期程延宕採購策略精進作為」，首先問一下，我查了整個國防部在立法院的相關報告或者對外的說明，目前我們確認比較officially的包含F-16V、AGM-154C、MK-48，金額大概是差不多……當然有些已經到貨，有些可能還沒，這些狀況目前是不是國防部officially承認比較屬於重大的延宕項目？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，您簡報上的這兩個數字可能都跟實際有點落差。第一個，我們目前實際執行中的案子一共25案，總金額的部分換算成臺幣大概是九千五百多億，在這九千五百多億臺幣裡面，已經完成交付的部分已經超過五千七百億，也就是目前還在執行中的最大延宕部分就是F-16V Block 70，這個案子裡面2,400億的軍……"],["洪委員毓祥：那AGM跟MK-48都OK了？"],["黃司長文啓：MK-48重雷的部分跟AGM-154C因為還沒有完成議約，所以這兩個案子的初期付款的值是很低的，目前這兩個案子已經付出去大概臺幣四億多，所以……"],["洪委員毓祥：但是跟當時所提出來的建軍規劃還是delay嘛。"],["黃司長文啓：對，這兩個案子delay。"],["洪委員毓祥：對嘛，所以這是你們比較正式說明是delay的部分，現在不管它付不付款嘛，我現在是說正式跟我……比如假設原本是2026年要到，它可能現在變成是2028年，不管是什麼因素，可能就是延後、delay了。除了這樣之外，有沒有去做歷屆的統計，就是對於歷屆採購延宕項目的原因分析，以及因為這樣的延宕，而在當時的戰略準備有沒有一些配套？有沒有做這樣子的分析？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，這個部分我們當然做過分析，目前對美軍購的部分，受到最大……"],["洪委員毓祥：不見得是對美軍購，因為今天的題目沒有對美軍購，我是說軍購的延宕，我的意思是一個可能有對美軍購的部分，另外一個可能就是我們自己要造，不管是跟國外的技術合作要不要造，這個部分召委也是非常關心啦，對不對？不管海鯤號，全國人都關心啦！我和經濟部去考察台船的時候，他也是說這個也會造成一些工廠在產能上的混亂等等，這些都有連帶的影響。我為什麼這樣問？因為我今天看這個報告，我是想知道到底有沒有做過這樣的分析？你們都說有嘛，可能事後交個報告給我好不好？因為我們在產業裡頭做採購很重要的事情，就是希望如期如質嘛！但是說實在的，凡事都有計畫，但計畫永遠趕不上變化，就如同你們今天分析的，不管是供應鏈或是廠商自我感覺異常良好，抑或當時訂的需求規格因為作戰需要有一些變更，這些我們都可以理解，但是產業採購、國防採購都一樣，大體的精神是這樣，就是去把它分析出來，因為這樣子的延宕，比如製程因為原物料等等因素，而形成了戰略空窗什麼的。我現在意思是假設我把審計部、預算中心以及這些歷屆相關的報告整理出來，像這些可能都是，有些可能是採購的，另外還有一種就是像這個是我們自己建的，不管是左營二港口擴建、特戰突擊艇等等，這些是國內製造的，對不對？因為我們委製，造成了delay，這是第二類型。","第三種類型是我也買了，它也交貨了，可是檢驗時發現規格不符合，針對規格不符合我們也不能算它採購延宕，但是對我們的戰力或者是跟當初的要求不合。","為什麼今天把採購室主任叫上來，我舉例子就是如果我身為採購主管的話，我會把過去歷屆報告分析出來，了解原因是什麼，然後怎麼去改善，以及這個改善措施將來怎麼樣執行、是不是有真的改善，就是滾動式的檢討。","我今天沒有要挑各位毛病，我都沒有，各位不要看到我就很defense，非常地防禦性，我就是全力跟各位探討，因為這些東西都會碰到問題，像創未來，不曉得中科院院長在嗎？我問一個問題，我今天不是要單獨問創未來，但我意思是創未來當時在做，是屬於研發型的採購？還是那個項目下去之後，就真的要交到軍隊來馬上使用？關於反制無人機那一塊。"],["李院長世強：這個比較像研發型的採購。"],["洪委員毓祥：比較像研發型的採購，所以在研發的過程當中，如果有，它跟我們一般馬上用的採購不一樣？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個可能要分兩階段，陸軍參謀長之前已經做過充分的說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，您講的這個部分，最主要它是一個研發。我簡單地說，就是我們當時找了國內的廠商，但在各方面沒有一家有辦法能夠單獨做出整合，那是111年8月發生的事，在112年提出這樣的研發需求，所以是由四家的次系統商，我們這個研究案的主要精神其實就在整合。"],["洪委員毓祥：好，因為我也做過採購，所以我非常熟悉，所以我為什麼這樣問，就是如果它是屬於研發型的採購，一開始就講清楚，它可以roll out對不對？然後你研發了幾型之後，比如進到prototype 1、2、3，不管是哪一個level，或是它的成熟度達不到，我們就要想辦法，要嘛就是找國內的法人再幫它，要嘛就是要找另外一家。因為像當初我們在美商做這些美國軍事系統的時候，採取的措施就是Fault Tolerance，也就是今天這些委員在講的，一定是多套研發、多套採製啊！AB系統兩家廠商，人員不能夠互通的嘛，所以兩個同時併軌研發的時候，A有問題，那B不代表會有問題，因為完全是isolated的，所以你要把研發採購跟所謂我真的要買上去就直接用了，這是不太一樣的，在你的採購標準跟程序，我覺得它可能是一個好東西，也可能是幫國內自製，可是你們講不清楚，這個是我給你的建議。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為一個是112年的委託研究案，另外，現在這個驗收沒有過的是113年開始的一個26套採購案，這兩個剛剛已經有做過一些說明，兩個不一樣。"],["洪委員毓祥：對，我都知道，我是說因為如果這26套採購案沒過，表示它當時的研發成果是有問題、有瑕疵的，所以你看這個就不是了嘛，所以我說部長剛剛回答……"],["陳參謀長建義：沒有必然的關係，其實研究案跟後面這個採購案沒有過，這兩案其實沒有必然的關係。"],["洪委員毓祥：所以這兩個研發做的原型不一樣？"],["陳參謀長建義：我剛才就說沒有必然的關係。"],["洪委員毓祥：不是沒有必然的關係，你這樣子邏輯上會有問題，反正中科院院長知道我在講什麼，就是研發型採購這邊完了之後，如果你確認它滿足標準，下一個當然是做採購，這沒有問題，我現在意思是你要去分清楚，將來會比較好。","我再問一下，你們回去也再做個報告，就是我們剛剛列的這些東西，因為我今天要問的問題很多，來不及在5分鐘內問完，但是我要遵守召委的規定，所以其他部分就請書面報告回復。我覺得光是一個採購，請各位學習一下科技業、產業界，整個採購的儀表板、進度分析以及可能的back up，這些東西我希望能夠確實做好，好不好？尤其我在這邊想要知道，你要告訴我這裡頭歷年來採購的項目，哪一些是特別預算，哪些是年度預算？這個是我想要知道的。以上，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-27","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","牛煦庭","王義川","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","王安祥","黃建賓","許忠信","謝龍介","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","洪毓祥","賴士葆","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","葉元之","陳冠廷","黃仁","王定宇"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2026-07-20"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍軍品採購履約爭議與違約致獲裝期程延宕採購策略精進作\n為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156401_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}