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35.85,"end":437.85,"text":"然後就在外面在外面標"},{"start":437.85,"end":438.85,"text":"標了之後"},{"start":438.85,"end":440.85,"text":"外面的廠商"},{"start":440.85,"end":441.85,"text":"根本沒有能力"},{"start":441.85,"end":444.85,"text":"可以幫我們買到這些這個砲彈"},{"start":444.85,"end":446.85,"text":"所以請問我們到底在幹嘛"},{"start":446.85,"end":448.85,"text":"部長你不覺得很離譜嗎"},{"start":449.82,"end":451.82,"text":"連續這三個案子"},{"start":451.82,"end":453.82,"text":"你不覺得很離譜嗎"},{"start":453.82,"end":455.82,"text":"我現在都可以封你是解約部長"},{"start":457.48,"end":458.48,"text":"跟委員說"},{"start":458.48,"end":461.48,"text":"5月6月7月連續的這些標案全部解約"},{"start":461.48,"end":464.48,"text":"這是之前大家都質疑的案子"},{"start":464.48,"end":465.48,"text":"你們說沒問題"},{"start":465.48,"end":466.48,"text":"不要質疑"},{"start":466.48,"end":468.48,"text":"質疑的話你們就是"},{"start":468.48,"end":469.48,"text":"不利於我們的國防"},{"start":469.48,"end":470.48,"text":"會有國安問題"},{"start":471.5,"end":472.5,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":473.36,"end":474.36,"text":"拿手"},{"start":474.91,"end":475.91,"text":"通通沒有辦法"},{"start":475.91,"end":476.91,"text":"呂月"},{"start":477.63,"end":478.63,"text":"陳偉還笑"},{"start":478.63,"end":479.63,"text":"確實嘛"},{"start":481.37,"end":482.37,"text":"大家會不會生氣啊"},{"start":483.52,"end":484.52,"text":"我來講就是說"},{"start":484.52,"end":486.52,"text":"我們對於很多的軍購案"},{"start":486.52,"end":488.52,"text":"有一些你受制於美國"},{"start":488.52,"end":491.52,"text":"你必須要美國賣給你"},{"start":491.52,"end":492.52,"text":"美國要履約"},{"start":492.52,"end":493.52,"text":"美國要交貨"},{"start":493.52,"end":495.52,"text":"那這個都不是啊"},{"start":495.52,"end":496.52,"text":"而且最離譜是"},{"start":496.52,"end":498.52,"text":"我們原來是自己可以做的捏"},{"start":499.6,"end":500.6,"text":"自己可以做然後"},{"start":501.27,"end":502.27,"text":"不錯了"},{"start":502.62,"end":504.62,"text":"給外面去買"},{"start":504.62,"end":506.62,"text":"找了一堆熱量七八糟的公司"},{"start":508.37,"end":510.37,"text":"剛才我在講那個福麥公司"},{"start":511.75,"end":512.75,"text":"那個案子"},{"start":512.75,"end":514.75,"text":"甚至連監察院"},{"start":514.75,"end":516.75,"text":"最近針對我們國防部的採購"},{"start":516.75,"end":518.75,"text":"都提出了問題啊"},{"start":518.75,"end":519.75,"text":"說你根本找一個"},{"start":520.93,"end":522.93,"text":"根本看起來就是沒有辦法去履約的公司"},{"start":522.93,"end":523.93,"text":"然後你標給他說"},{"start":523.93,"end":525.93,"text":"我全部符合規定"},{"start":526.68,"end":527.68,"text":"其結果如何"},{"start":528.99,"end":529.99,"text":"所以啊"},{"start":530.46,"end":531.46,"text":"部長"},{"start":532.08,"end":534.08,"text":"這麼多案子你覺得國防部要不要檢討"},{"start":534.08,"end":535.08,"text":"你說"},{"start":536.18,"end":537.18,"text":"怎麼給我們交代"},{"start":538.98,"end":539.98,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":539.98,"end":540.98,"text":"監察院"},{"start":540.98,"end":541.98,"text":"我在請問部長"},{"start":546.11,"end":547.11,"text":"監察院"},{"start":547.11,"end":548.11,"text":"部長你無言以退了嗎"},{"start":548.11,"end":549.11,"text":"我是說明"},{"start":549.11,"end":550.11,"text":"監察院來的案子"},{"start":550.11,"end":551.11,"text":"我們都已經說明了"},{"start":551.11,"end":553.11,"text":"監察院整個看我們的履約啦"},{"start":553.11,"end":554.11,"text":"他有幾個"},{"start":554.11,"end":555.11,"text":"一個"},{"start":555.11,"end":556.11,"text":"精進的建議啊"},{"start":556.11,"end":557.11,"text":"我們整個案子的招標"},{"start":557.11,"end":558.11,"text":"是沒有違失的"},{"start":558.11,"end":559.11,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":559.11,"end":560.11,"text":"另外再跟委員報告"},{"start":560.11,"end":561.11,"text":"在10秒鐘"},{"start":561.11,"end":562.11,"text":"所以這些案子"},{"start":562.11,"end":563.11,"text":"全部沒有違失"},{"start":563.11,"end":564.11,"text":"全部合格"},{"start":564.11,"end":567.11,"text":"只是他們都沒有辦法履約"},{"start":567.11,"end":568.11,"text":"我要講的是"},{"start":568.11,"end":569.11,"text":"未來"},{"start":569.11,"end":571.11,"text":"我不曉得還有沒有類似的案例"},{"start":572.09,"end":575.09,"text":"所以我們其實在一些的規格上面"},{"start":575.09,"end":578.09,"text":"在一些就是你要確定"},{"start":578.09,"end":579.09,"text":"廠商能不能履約"},{"start":579.09,"end":582.09,"text":"我們要有更多的具體的"},{"start":582.09,"end":583.09,"text":"好"},{"start":583.09,"end":584.09,"text":"的相關的政策"},{"start":584.09,"end":585.09,"text":"不要到時候"},{"start":585.09,"end":586.09,"text":"最後"},{"start":587.72,"end":588.72,"text":"一翻兩瞪眼"},{"start":588.72,"end":589.72,"text":"好不好"},{"start":589.72,"end":590.72,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":590.72,"end":591.72,"text":"我想"},{"start":591.72,"end":593.72,"text":"不管是火藥的原物料的採購"},{"start":593.72,"end":594.72,"text":"我們在有一些"},{"start":594.72,"end":597.72,"text":"包括我們國造的艦"},{"start":597.72,"end":598.72,"text":"或者是潛艦等等"},{"start":598.72,"end":600.72,"text":"我們一些商源的取得"},{"start":600.72,"end":601.72,"text":"都並不容易啦"},{"start":601.72,"end":602.72,"text":"那有"},{"start":602.72,"end":606.72,"text":"如果我們會按照我們的這個合約的"},{"start":608.14,"end":610.14,"text":"這個履約的這個保證的機制"},{"start":610.14,"end":612.14,"text":"我們來好好的進行規劃"},{"start":612.14,"end":614.14,"text":"那沒有辦法履約這個部分"},{"start":614.14,"end":616.14,"text":"也有相關的解約的機制"},{"start":616.14,"end":619.14,"text":"劃款跟莫說裡的保證金等等"},{"start":619.14,"end":621.14,"text":"都會依照合約來進行這樣"},{"start":622.62,"end":624.62,"text":"該依約的當然是依約你是大律師"},{"start":624.62,"end":627.62,"text":"但是問題不要再發生這些類似的狀況"},{"start":627.62,"end":628.62,"text":"好以上"},{"st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27:07.560000+08:00","text":"延宕了兩、三年，現在要重新招標嘛，這個案子你不是又要重新招標嗎？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:27:07.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:27:09.320000+08:00","text":"所以不就是延宕嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:27:09.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:27:21.073333+08:00","text":"我們一直在講，我們很多的軍事採購延宕，當時我們有的是怪美國，美國都沒有履約，美國都沒有交貨，但問題是現在這個案子跟美國沒有關係啊！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:27:22.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:27:30.985556+08:00","text":"從無人機反制系統到現在裝潢公司、賣馬桶的公司去標RDX，這跟美國有什麼關係？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:27:31.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:27:33.133333+08:00","text":"這不就是我們自己的問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:27:33.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:27:34.745000+08:00","text":"不需要檢討嗎？部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:27:35.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:27:49.163333+08:00","text":"RDX的對外採購，我想這個既然在國際上會受到種種壓力的影響，我們現在的規劃就是我們要自己來興建RDX的生產線。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:27:49.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:27:59.292222+08:00","text":"原本是放在1.25兆的特別預算，現在1.25兆這個案子沒有通過嘛，那我們會放在我們的追加預算或者是公務預算裡面。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:01.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:04.262857+08:00","text":"問題是我們原來就有預算不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:04.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:06.869333+08:00","text":"原來預算金額高達八億多，現在怎麼樣？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:07.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:10.950000+08:00","text":"現在沒有辦法履約，然後又要再生一筆預算出來是吧？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:11.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:17.115714+08:00","text":"您現在講的是RDX還是另外一個案？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:17.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:18.140000+08:00","text":"RDX啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:18.140000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:19.140000+08:00","text":"那個不是公務預算，是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:18.818571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:22.790000+08:00","text":"RDX的那個是基金的部分嘛。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:24.065714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:29.646000+08:00","text":"我覺得真好笑欸，不管是無人機反制系統，你怎麼開標？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:29.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:30.550000+08:00","text":"你怎麼招標？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:30.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:32.710000+08:00","text":"不是先有預算，你才招標嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:33.076667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:35.743333+08:00","text":"這個RDX不也是有預算，你才招標嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:36.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:40.310000+08:00","text":"然後你現在告訴我，你又要再來編預算，什麼意思啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:40.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:41.550000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:41.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:50.285385+08:00","text":"你們這些標案亂七八糟，然後沒有辦法履約之後再來編預算，我們怎麼樣，一頭牛要被你們剝兩層皮是吧？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:50.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:56.812857+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們RDX不是用公務預算，是用我們基金的預算去購買的，這邊跟委員說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:57.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:28:57.927143+08:00","text":"所以未來怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:28:58.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:29:02.503333+08:00","text":"現在我們要建立自主的產線，這個部分當然要放入預算內的。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:29:03.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:29:08.641429+08:00","text":"兩個概念是不一樣的，一個是我們對外採購，另一個是要建立自主的產線。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:29:08.641429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:29:10.400000+08:00","text":"建立自主產線是用公務預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:29:10.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:29:14.653333+08:00","text":"我們原來很多有自主的產線，你們偏偏要對外去標。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:29:15.070667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:29:29.246667+08:00","text":"除了這一個案子要解約之外，來，我們看下一個案子，這個也是我們的召委曾經質詢過的105公厘砲彈，以前是我們自己在做，後來呢？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:29:29.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:29:40.568571+08:00","text":"就變成也是向外面買，結果也碰到了一個拿到輸出許可有問題的，所以請問一下，這個案子怎麼樣，是不是也要解約？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:29:41.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:29:51.053333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個案子我們在5月份就已經辦理解約，並且我們也是一樣依照合約罰款再加上沒收履約保證金，我們罰了韓華大概約四億餘元，以上說明。","quality":0.581},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:29:56.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:29:58.220000+08:00","text":"一共罰多少？約4億。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:29:59.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:02.020000+08:00","text":"一共罰4億，這個標案的金額一共多少？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:02.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:07.290000+08:00","text":"這個標案是約臺幣18.4億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:09.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:10.250000+08:00","text":"18.4億，然後罰4億？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:10.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:11.250000+08:00","text":"是，就按照合約……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:10.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:12.318182+08:00","text":"請問一下未來這個怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:12.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:16.166667+08:00","text":"這個原來是我們205兵工廠自己做的啊。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:17.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:26.450000+08:00","text":"我們兵工廠自己做的是因為在107年這個產線就拆掉了，為了因應，我們在今年的5月份就已經拿到輸出許可……","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:26.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:33.275000+08:00","text":"產線拆掉之後到外面買，然後現在沒辦法拿到那個輸入許可，我們到底在搞什麼？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:33.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:34.683333+08:00","text":"請問在搞什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:34.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:49.668182+08:00","text":"原來可以自己來生產的，把產線拆了之後，然後就到外面標，標了之後，外面的廠商根本沒有能力可以幫我們買到這些砲彈原料，所以請問我們到底在幹嘛？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:49.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:51.650000+08:00","text":"部長，你不覺得很離譜嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:52.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:56.570000+08:00","text":"連續這三個案子，你不覺得很離譜嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:30:56.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:30:58.666154+08:00","text":"我現在都可以封你是解約部長了。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:31:00.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:31:01.230000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:31:01.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:31:15.166667+08:00","text":"5月、6月、7月連續的這些標案全部解約，這些之前大家都質疑的案子，你們說沒問題，不要質疑，質疑的話就是不利於我們的國防，會有國安問題，結果呢？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:31:15.166667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:31:20.630000+08:00","text":"「noo-sut」（門都沒有、沒機會了）通通沒有辦法履約。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:31:20.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:31:25.245000+08:00","text":"陳委員還笑，確實嘛，大家會不會生氣啊？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:31:26.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:31:38.234286+08:00","text":"我要講的就是，我們對於很多的軍購案，有一些你是受制於美國，你必須要美國賣給你，美國要履約，美國要交貨，但這個都不是啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:31:38.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:31:41.186667+08:00","text":"而且最離譜的是我們原來是自己可以做的呢！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:31:42.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:31:49.453333+08:00","text":"自己可以做，然後不做了，到外面去買，找了一堆亂七八糟的公司。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:31:51.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:32:10.480000+08:00","text":"剛才我在講那個福麥公司的案子，甚至連監察院最近針對我們國防部的採購都提出了問題，說你找一個根本看起來就是沒有辦法去履約的公司，然後你標給他，說我全部符合規定，其結果如何？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:32:11.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:32:16.955000+08:00","text":"所以，部長，這麼多案子，你覺得國防部要不要檢討？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:32:17.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:32:20.037143+08:00","text":"你說怎麼給我們交代？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:32:21.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:32:23.646667+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，監察院提的案子……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:32:23.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:32:30.998889+08:00","text":"我在請問部長，還是部長已經無言以對了嗎？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:32:31.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:32:33.985000+08:00","text":"我是說明監察院來的案子，我們都已經說明了……部長？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:32:34.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:32:41.860000+08:00","text":"監察院看我們的整個履約，他有幾個精進的建議，但我們整個案子的招標是沒有違失的，以上說明。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2026-07-20T12:32:42.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:32:43.776667+08:00","text":"另外再跟委員報告，再10秒鐘……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:32:44.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:32:49.837273+08:00","text":"部長，所以這些案子全部沒有違失，全部都合格，只是他們都沒有辦法履約。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:32:50.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:33:12.386667+08:00","text":"我要講的是，未來我不曉得還有沒有類似的案例，所以我們其實在一些規格上面，就是你要確定廠商能不能履約，我們要有更多具體的相關政策，不要到時候最後一翻兩瞪眼，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:33:12.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:33:43.594545+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我想不管是火藥原物料的採購，我們在有一些包括我們國造的艦艇或者是潛艦等等，我們一些商源的取得都並不容易，我們會按照我們合約的履約保證機制來好好的進行規劃，沒有辦法履約這個部分也有相關的解約機制，包括罰款跟沒收履約保證金等等都會依照合約來進行。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-20T12:33:45.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:33:52.800000+08:00","text":"該依約的當然是依約，你是大律師，但是問題不要再發生這些類似的狀況。以上。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T12:33:53.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:34:09.014286+08:00","text":"我們其實主要是希望不要持續發生，因為比例太高了，我們要的不是相關的這些罰款跟履約保證金，這個我們可能還要再次強調一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T12:34:09.314286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:34:13.028571+08:00","text":"接下來請葉元之委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時23分）謝謝主席，我請顧立雄部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你們今天的報告最主要就是來檢討相關軍事採購的履約狀況，稍早之前，因為我之前也已經提出無人機反制系統，創未來根本三次都補考不及格，所以國防部決定要解約，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是，國防部會來進行解約，逾期罰款跟沒收履約保證金。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，就是會解約、罰款，還有沒收履約保證金，但是創未來的無人機反制系統無法履約已經不是最近以來的第一宗，我想請問一下，之前我們立法院及很多社會大眾非常關注的就是一個臺南的室內裝修公司，過去長期以來進口馬桶、賣馬桶的公司竟然可以標到高達5.9億的RDX的炸藥標案，這個案子也曾經引起非常多的質疑。我想請問一下，這個標案後來履約了嗎？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員說明，當時的合約條款就是在簽訂合約後180天內要拿到輸出許可，這家公司到7月6號已經逾期的天數達20%就是36天，已經達到解約條件，所以我們就依合約，剛剛也跟馬委員補充報告，他的履約保證金是4,123萬，然後逾期的罰款是4,275萬，總共罰款金額8,398萬，加計要刊登不良廠商名單，以上說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以這個廠商會做處理，對不對？就是包括履約保證金跟罰款要罰他8,390萬，對不對？"],["林局長文祥：98萬，是。"],["王委員鴻薇：8,398萬。所以，我們提出這個案子覺得它非常不合理，當時部長還認為我們是不實指控，現在是不實指控嗎？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：這個我想我們已經一再說明，我們過去對於這種RDX或者類似的火藥原物料等等的，我們都是採同樣的招標規格來進行的，我們當時也已經一再說明，他沒有辦法履約，我們就按照合約規定來處理，我們從來沒有去幫任何一個廠商講說他一定……"],["王委員鴻薇：現在部長說沒有幫他背書的意思囉？"],["顧部長立雄：不是，我們當時一再的說明，我們已經找過所有相關資料，歷來有關火藥原物料的規格都是一致的……"],["林局長文祥：規格20年來都一致。"],["顧部長立雄：20年來都是一致的，我們沒有去有什麼規格特別為誰量身定做的狀況嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，到目前為止，你還認為你們這個規格是正確的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個規格我們的錢也編了，標案也標出去了，然後浪費時間啊！就跟無人機反制系統也是一樣啊！延宕了兩、三年，現在要重新招標嘛，這個案子你不是又要重新招標嗎？所以不就是延宕嗎？我們一直在講，我們很多的軍事採購延宕，當時我們有的是怪美國，美國都沒有履約，美國都沒有交貨，但問題是現在這個案子跟美國沒有關係啊！從無人機反制系統到現在裝潢公司、賣馬桶的公司去標RDX，這跟美國有什麼關係？這不就是我們自己的問題嗎？不需要檢討嗎？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：RDX的對外採購，我想這個既然在國際上會受到種種壓力的影響，我們現在的規劃就是我們要自己來興建RDX的生產線。原本是放在1.25兆的特別預算，現在1.25兆這個案子沒有通過嘛，那我們會放在我們的追加預算或者是公務預算裡面。"],["王委員鴻薇：問題是我們原來就有預算不是嗎？原來預算金額高達八億多，現在怎麼樣？現在沒有辦法履約，然後又要再生一筆預算出來是吧？"],["顧部長立雄：您現在講的是RDX還是另外一個案？"],["王委員鴻薇：RDX啊！"],["林局長文祥：那個不是公務預算，是……"],["顧部長立雄：RDX的那個是基金的部分嘛。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得真好笑欸，不管是無人機反制系統，你怎麼開標？你怎麼招標？不是先有預算，你才招標嗎？這個RDX不也是有預算，你才招標嗎？然後你現在告訴我，你又要再來編預算，什麼意思啊！"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，我們……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們這些標案亂七八糟，然後沒有辦法履約之後再來編預算，我們怎麼樣，一頭牛要被你們剝兩層皮是吧？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員說明，我們RDX不是用公務預算，是用我們基金的預算去購買的，這邊跟委員說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以未來怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：現在我們要建立自主的產線，這個部分當然要放入預算內的。兩個概念是不一樣的，一個是我們對外採購，另一個是要建立自主的產線。"],["林局長文祥：建立自主產線是用公務預算。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們原來很多有自主的產線，你們偏偏要對外去標。除了這一個案子要解約之外，來，我們看下一個案子，這個也是我們的召委曾經質詢過的105公厘砲彈，以前是我們自己在做，後來呢？就變成也是向外面買，結果也碰到了一個拿到輸出許可有問題的，所以請問一下，這個案子怎麼樣，是不是也要解約？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，這個案子我們在5月份就已經辦理解約，並且我們也是一樣依照合約罰款再加上沒收履約保證金，我們罰了韓華大概約四億餘元，以上說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：一共罰多少？"],["林局長文祥：約4億。"],["王委員鴻薇：一共罰4億，這個標案的金額一共多少？"],["林局長文祥：這個標案是約臺幣18.4億。"],["王委員鴻薇：18.4億，然後罰4億？"],["林局長文祥：是，就按照合約……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下未來這個怎麼樣？這個原來是我們205兵工廠自己做的啊。"],["林局長文祥：我們兵工廠自己做的是因為在107年這個產線就拆掉了，為了因應，我們在今年的5月份就已經拿到輸出許可……"],["王委員鴻薇：產線拆掉之後到外面買，然後現在沒辦法拿到那個輸入許可，我們到底在搞什麼？請問在搞什麼？原來可以自己來生產的，把產線拆了之後，然後就到外面標，標了之後，外面的廠商根本沒有能力可以幫我們買到這些砲彈原料，所以請問我們到底在幹嘛？部長，你不覺得很離譜嗎？連續這三個案子，你不覺得很離譜嗎？我現在都可以封你是解約部長了。"],["林局長文祥：跟委員說明……"],["王委員鴻薇：5月、6月、7月連續的這些標案全部解約，這些之前大家都質疑的案子，你們說沒問題，不要質疑，質疑的話就是不利於我們的國防，會有國安問題，結果呢？「noo-sut」（門都沒有、沒機會了）通通沒有辦法履約。","陳委員還笑，確實嘛，大家會不會生氣啊？我要講的就是，我們對於很多的軍購案，有一些你是受制於美國，你必須要美國賣給你，美國要履約，美國要交貨，但這個都不是啊！而且最離譜的是我們原來是自己可以做的呢！自己可以做，然後不做了，到外面去買，找了一堆亂七八糟的公司。剛才我在講那個福麥公司的案子，甚至連監察院最近針對我們國防部的採購都提出了問題，說你找一個根本看起來就是沒有辦法去履約的公司，然後你標給他，說我全部符合規定，其結果如何？所以，部長，這麼多案子，你覺得國防部要不要檢討？你說怎麼給我們交代？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員說明，監察院提的案子……"],["王委員鴻薇：我在請問部長，還是部長已經無言以對了嗎？"],["林局長文祥：我是說明監察院來的案子，我們都已經說明了……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長？"],["林局長文祥：監察院看我們的整個履約，他有幾個精進的建議，但我們整個案子的招標是沒有違失的，以上說明。另外再跟委員報告，再10秒鐘……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，所以這些案子全部沒有違失，全部都合格，只是他們都沒有辦法履約。我要講的是，未來我不曉得還有沒有類似的案例，所以我們其實在一些規格上面，就是你要確定廠商能不能履約，我們要有更多具體的相關政策，不要到時候最後一翻兩瞪眼，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想不管是火藥原物料的採購，我們在有一些包括我們國造的艦艇或者是潛艦等等，我們一些商源的取得都並不容易，我們會按照我們合約的履約保證機制來好好的進行規劃，沒有辦法履約這個部分也有相關的解約機制，包括罰款跟沒收履約保證金等等都會依照合約來進行。"],["王委員鴻薇：該依約的當然是依約，你是大律師，但是問題不要再發生這些類似的狀況。以上。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們其實主要是希望不要持續發生，因為比例太高了，我們要的不是相關的這些罰款跟履約保證金，這個我們可能還要再次強調一下。","接下來請葉元之委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-27","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","牛煦庭","王義川","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","王安祥","黃建賓","許忠信","謝龍介","郭昱晴","洪孟楷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