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這個"},{"start":101.36,"end":103.36,"text":"網路的一個降速呢"},{"start":103.36,"end":105.36,"text":"這是因為今年第一次弄"},{"start":105.36,"end":107.36,"text":"所以我想 這個部分"},{"start":107.36,"end":109.36,"text":"行政院確實"},{"start":109.36,"end":111.36,"text":"也會進一步再做一個比較完整"},{"start":111.36,"end":113.36,"text":"的一個說明"},{"start":113.36,"end":115.36,"text":"那 呃 演練這一個"},{"start":115.36,"end":117.36,"text":"在這個通訊網路"},{"start":117.36,"end":119.36,"text":"這一個降速而受阻的情況之下"},{"start":119.36,"end":121.36,"text":"那 呃 讓民眾"},{"start":121.36,"end":123.36,"text":"呃 能夠理解"},{"start":123.36,"end":125.36,"text":"確實在這個"},{"start":125.36,"end":127.36,"text":"緊急的狀態之下確實"},{"start":127.36,"end":129.36,"text":"也有發生這種問題的可能性"},{"start":129.36,"end":131.36,"text":"這樣子"},{"start":131.55,"end":133.55,"text":"我今天主要是"},{"start":133.55,"end":135.55,"text":"特別要提到這個時間點跟我們"},{"start":135.55,"end":137.55,"text":"為什麼要做這件事情"},{"start":137.68,"end":139.68,"text":"主要是要提醒所有的"},{"start":139.68,"end":141.68,"text":"我們的國民說 所有"},{"start":141.68,"end":143.68,"text":"類似這樣子的狀況"},{"start":143.68,"end":145.68,"text":"我們事先提醒 那是在做一些"},{"start":145.68,"end":147.68,"text":"預備的演練"},{"start":148.48,"end":150.48,"text":"中方他是可能在任何一個時間點"},{"start":150.48,"end":152.48,"text":"在我們沒有任何準備的狀況之下"},{"start":152.48,"end":154.48,"text":"對我們"},{"start":153.9,"end":155.9,"text":"產生 或者是對我們"},{"start":155.9,"end":157.9,"text":"做出任何的敵情的"},{"start":157.9,"end":159.9,"text":"攻擊威脅"},{"start":159.9,"end":161.9,"text":"那包含剛才講到的"},{"start":161.9,"end":163.9,"text":"我們現在是這樣網速"},{"start":163.9,"end":165.9,"text":"那可能最後會是斷網速"},{"start":165.9,"end":167.9,"text":"就是直接中共可能直接幫我們斷網速"},{"start":167.9,"end":169.9,"text":"跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":169.9,"end":171.9,"text":"這個環空演習裡面之前"},{"start":171.9,"end":173.9,"text":"你看就有做警報發放"},{"start":173.9,"end":175.9,"text":"疏散避難 交通管制"},{"start":175.9,"end":177.9,"text":"等等這些演練"},{"start":177.9,"end":179.9,"text":"那也都是 呃 從某些地區"},{"start":179.9,"end":181.9,"text":"然後逐步的再擴大嘛"},{"start":181.9,"end":183.9,"text":"行動網路的一個"},{"start":183.9,"end":185.9,"text":"一個降速 這個也是"},{"start":185.9,"end":187.9,"text":"在我們可能的這個"},{"start":189.15,"end":191.15,"text":"設想的情況範圍之內"},{"start":191.15,"end":193.15,"text":"所以 呃 讓民眾來"},{"start":193.15,"end":195.15,"text":"來知道可能會有這個狀況"},{"start":195.15,"end":197.15,"text":"我想 呃 當然我"},{"start":197.15,"end":199.15,"text":"我想各位很多委員都指教說"},{"start":199.15,"end":201.15,"text":"可能還需要做更多的說明"},{"start":201.15,"end":203.15,"text":"那 我 我不太確定"},{"start":203.15,"end":205.15,"text":"我不太確定 我原因是因為"},{"start":205.15,"end":207.15,"text":"我們之所以要做這樣的演練"},{"start":207.15,"end":209.15,"text":"不就是要做好"},{"start":209.15,"end":211.15,"text":"第一個是有突發狀況的 第二個是"},{"start":211.15,"end":213.15,"text":"沒有突發狀況的事前演練"},{"start":213.15,"end":215.15,"text":"所以 當然"},{"start":215.15,"end":217.15,"text":"第一次的這種演練的話"},{"start":217.15,"end":219.15,"text":"也先說明可以降低民眾的恐慌"},{"start":220,"end":222,"text":"但是俄羅斯也沒有給烏克蘭機會"},{"start":222,"end":224,"text":"讓他們去演練喔 所以"},{"start":224,"end":226,"text":"我還是認為 有人"},{"start":226,"end":228,"text":"今天早上有記者詢問說"},{"start":228,"end":230,"text":"那為什麼選擇在這個時間點"},{"start":230,"end":232,"text":"為什麼不想說再往後延一點"},{"start":232,"end":234,"text":"等到民眾更能夠準備好"},{"start":234.27,"end":238.27,"text":"可是這樣的變成說 我永遠都不知道什麼時候才是正確的時間點"},{"start":238.27,"end":240.27,"text":"永遠都不知道什麼時候才可以做第一次這樣的演練"},{"start":241.28,"end":243.28,"text":"所以我認為 有相關的做法是正確的"},{"start":245.51,"end":246.01,"text":"過"},{"start":246.34,"end":248.34,"text":"我們也要注意幾件事情喔"},{"start":248.34,"end":250.34,"text":"我想 欸 我們的這個軍事情報處處長也有在嗎"},{"start":255.65,"end":256.15,"text":"是"},{"start":257.24,"end":259.24,"text":"我擔心的是 有沒有可能"},{"start":259.24,"end":261.24,"text":"中共已經確知 我們8月的這兩次"},{"start":261.24,"end":263.24,"text":"一次是北部 一次是中部的這個時間點"},{"start":263.24,"end":265.24,"text":"一次是北部 一次是中部的這個時間點"},{"start":265.24,"end":267.24,"text":"那在這個時間點裡面 他們可能會給我們降網速"},{"start":267.24,"end":269.24,"text":"中共有沒有辦法"},{"start":269.24,"end":271.24,"text":"或者是還有有沒有"},{"start":271.24,"end":273.24,"text":"這樣子 有沒有接獲相關的情報"},{"start":273.24,"end":275.24,"text":"也會在同樣的時間點"},{"start":275.24,"end":277.24,"text":"直接執行降我們網速"},{"start":277.24,"end":279.24,"text":"斷我們的網速 然後進行把它"},{"start":279.24,"end":281.24,"text":"歸咎成為我國"},{"start":281.24,"end":283.24,"text":"內部技術 或者是"},{"start":283.24,"end":285.24,"text":"技術性的 沒有辦法恢復網速"},{"start":285.24,"end":287.24,"text":"然後歸咎在我們的行政部門上面"},{"start":287.24,"end":289.24,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":290.58,"end":292.58,"text":"它在我們做演練的時候"},{"start":292.85,"end":294.85,"text":"直接執行攻擊"},{"start":294.85,"end":296.85,"text":"在執行攻擊之後"},{"start":296.2,"end":298.2,"text":"來否認他們執行攻擊"},{"start":298.2,"end":300.2,"text":"因為我們也是在那個時間點"},{"start":300.2,"end":302.2,"text":"對我國的部分地區"},{"start":302.2,"end":304.2,"text":"做出網速的降速"},{"start":304.83,"end":306.83,"text":"那就是圍棋行動"},{"start":306.83,"end":308.83,"text":"那這樣子的圍棋行動在俄羅斯對烏克蘭的行動中多次出現"},{"start":308.83,"end":310.83,"text":"那有沒有接獲相關的情報"},{"start":310.83,"end":312.83,"text":"以及如果真的要這麼處理的話"},{"start":312.83,"end":314.83,"text":"你們要怎麼樣去反制"},{"start":314.83,"end":316.83,"text":"是 委員的提醒"},{"start":316.83,"end":318.83,"text":"可能我們會來加以"},{"start":318.83,"end":320.83,"text":"轉達 主要就是因為過去"},{"start":320.83,"end":322.83,"text":"在一些"},{"start":322.46,"end":324.46,"text":"相關可能的一些"},{"start":325.08,"end":327.08,"text":"場合包括不管是"},{"start":327.08,"end":329.08,"text":"針對性軍演 或者是怎麼樣"},{"start":329.08,"end":331.08,"text":"我們都會成立這個相關的一些"},{"start":331.08,"end":333.08,"text":"跨部會的一個小組"},{"start":333.08,"end":335.08,"text":"跟"},{"start":335.08,"end":337.08,"text":"相關的部會"},{"start":337.08,"end":339.08,"text":"來做好這個"},{"start":339.08,"end":341.08,"text":"有關資安的"},{"start":341.08,"end":343.08,"text":"聯防的一個"},{"start":343.08,"end":345.08,"text":"機制 那你現在提到"},{"start":345.08,"end":347.08,"text":"這個問題 我覺得是可以"},{"start":347.08,"end":349.08,"text":"來考量"},{"start":350.09,"end":352.09,"text":"可能的問題"},{"start":352.09,"end":354.09,"text":"我們希望他不要防身"},{"start":354.09,"end":356.09,"text":"他不是做資安的防護而已"},{"start":356.09,"end":358.09,"text":"因為他是 你防護"},{"start":358.09,"end":360.09,"text":"是一回事 但是這個其實是情報的操作"},{"start":361.78,"end":363.78,"text":"那還有甚至是資訊的這個操作"},{"start":363.78,"end":365.78,"text":"那他就不是單純的技術問題"},{"start":365.78,"end":367.78,"text":"就是說這個"},{"start":367.78,"end":369.78,"text":"怎麼樣防止中共的網軍"},{"start":369.78,"end":371.78,"text":"怎麼樣防止中共的這個"},{"start":371.78,"end":373.78,"text":"Cyber的攻擊 然後可能什麼"},{"start":373.78,"end":375.78,"text":"DDoS等等 不是"},{"start":375.78,"end":377.78,"text":"他這麼做的話 他是要把這個東西"},{"start":377.78,"end":379.78,"text":"把它轉移成為"},{"start":379.78,"end":381.78,"text":"是我們行政端上面"},{"start":381.78,"end":383.78,"text":"技術上的失敗 無法把"},{"start":383.78,"end":385.78,"text":"網速往回提升 所以"},{"start":385.78,"end":387.78,"text":"萬一有這樣的情報第一時間也要跟民眾"},{"start":387.78,"end":389.78,"text":"講說這也是有可能的風險"},{"start":390.5,"end":392.5,"text":"如果我是中共的話 我一定會在那個時間點"},{"start":392.5,"end":394.5,"text":"做出相應的做法 因為沒有"},{"start":394.5,"end":396.5,"text":"任何證據"},{"start":396.26,"end":398.26,"text":"那我先入"},{"start":397.67,"end":399.67,"text":"無止盡的資訊戰跟輿論戰"},{"start":399.67,"end":401.67,"text":"因為你不會知道什麼是真實的"},{"start":401.67,"end":403.67,"text":"是 您的意見 我想我們會轉達"},{"start":403.67,"end":405.67,"text":"給相關的這些"},{"start":405.67,"end":407.67,"text":"部會 包括NCC說法部等等"},{"start":407.67,"end":409.67,"text":"我請他們再做個"},{"start":409.67,"end":411.67,"text":"這個研判"},{"start":411.67,"end":413.67,"text":"麻煩軍情單位"},{"start":413.67,"end":415.67,"text":"也可能要做好準備"},{"start":415.67,"end":417.67,"text":"因為我們事先提醒"},{"start":417.67,"end":419.67,"text":"事先把它講出來"},{"start":419.67,"end":421.67,"text":"我們應該會大家互相來協作"},{"start":421.67,"end":423.67,"text":"OK 這個蠻重要的"},{"start":423.67,"end":425.67,"text":"那第二點喔 關於採購的部分"},{"start":425.67,"end":427.67,"text":"關於採購的部分"},{"start":427.19,"end":429.19,"text":"那今天我聽到很多"},{"start":429.19,"end":431.19,"text":"呃"},{"start":430.75,"end":432.75,"text":"很多委員都有提到一些"},{"start":432.75,"end":434.75,"text":"延宕啦 一些細節"},{"start":434.75,"end":436.75,"text":"或者是單指哪一個"},{"start":436.75,"end":438.75,"text":"比方哪一個廠啊 哪一件事情"},{"start":438.75,"end":440.75,"text":"我"},{"start":440.64,"end":442.64,"text":"我覺得 這樣子的方式"},{"start":442.64,"end":444.64,"text":"沒有辦法解決我們一些潛在"},{"start":444.64,"end":446.64,"text":"應該說根本上的問題"},{"start":446.64,"end":448.64,"text":"你今天 我們最開始我們提出的"},{"start":448.64,"end":450.64,"text":"五項經濟作為喔"},{"start":450.64,"end":452.64,"text":"其實都是在我們現有的政府採購法"},{"start":452.64,"end":454.64,"text":"的框架裡面喔"},{"start":454.64,"end":456.64,"text":"那 基本上"},{"start":456.67,"end":458.67,"text":"你們沒有提到"},{"start":458.67,"end":460.67,"text":"一些我們可能會遇到最大的問題"},{"start":460.67,"end":462.67,"text":"比方說OTA啊"},{"start":462.67,"end":464.67,"text":"比方說 美國的這個聯邦採購法"},{"start":464.67,"end":466.67,"text":"為什麼當初聯邦採購法"},{"start":466.67,"end":468.67,"text":"沒有辦法在美國有效的"},{"start":468.67,"end":470.67,"text":"執行國防快速的變革"},{"start":471.62,"end":473.62,"text":"廢事"},{"start":473.62,"end":475.62,"text":"要採購某一個武器裝備的時候"},{"start":475.62,"end":477.62,"text":"這個武器裝備搞不好已經過世了"},{"start":478.34,"end":480.34,"text":"這是20年前的事情"},{"start":480.34,"end":482.34,"text":"這是30年前的事情"},{"start":482.34,"end":484.34,"text":"但現在是每半年"},{"start":483.09,"end":485.09,"text":"在烏克朗的話基本上是每三個禮拜"},{"start":485.09,"end":487.09,"text":"甚至是每兩個禮拜就是一個循環"},{"start":487.09,"end":489.09,"text":"就是一個循環"},{"start":489.09,"end":491.09,"text":"那麼技術就必須要革新"},{"start":491.09,"end":493.09,"text":"那這樣的狀況之下"},{"start":493.09,"end":495.09,"text":"單純的用各位的五項經濟作為"},{"start":495.09,"end":497.09,"text":"可能沒有辦法直接解決這樣的問題"},{"start":497.09,"end":499.09,"text":"他必須要有修法端"},{"start":499.09,"end":501.09,"text":"來去做"},{"start":502.08,"end":504.08,"text":"每次我們聽到包含這個"},{"start":504.08,"end":506.08,"text":"DIO"},{"start":506.08,"end":508.08,"text":"我們的這個國防專精小組成立"},{"start":508.08,"end":510.08,"text":"那我常常聽到就是說"},{"start":510.08,"end":512.0799999999999,"text":"我們現有的政府採購法等等等等"},{"start":512.0799999999999,"end":514.0799999999999,"text":"然後沒有辦法用很快速的方式"},{"start":514.0799999999999,"end":516.0799999999999,"text":"去採購 那也沒有"},{"start":516.0799999999999,"end":518.0799999999999,"text":"像OTA這種其他的交易授權的方式"},{"start":518.0799999999999,"end":520.0799999999999,"text":"也沒有MTA"},{"start":520.0799999999999,"end":522.0799999999999,"text":"這種中間層的採購的方式"},{"start":522.0799999999999,"end":524.0799999999999,"text":"也沒有美國的各種"},{"start":524.0799999999999,"end":526.0799999999999,"text":"的各樣的採購的新的法規"},{"start":526.0799999999999,"end":528.0799999999999,"text":"去做處理"},{"start":528.0799999999999,"end":530.0799999999999,"text":"所以他還就是選在那裡"},{"start":530.08,"end":532.08,"text":"還是放在那邊"},{"start":532.08,"end":534.08,"text":"所以儘管我們有一個"},{"start":533.52,"end":535.52,"text":"國防創新小組"},{"start":535.52,"end":537.52,"text":"那他可能就只是一個大型的"},{"start":537.52,"end":539.52,"text":"名片交換的一個公司"},{"start":540.45,"end":542.45,"text":"他跟很多美國的創新的這些企業"},{"start":542.45,"end":544.45,"text":"交換名片"},{"start":544.45,"end":546.45,"text":"那有的時候他們才有辦法交換"},{"start":546.45,"end":548.45,"text":"有的時候別人找不到我們"},{"start":548.45,"end":550.45,"text":"因為我們到現在也沒有網站"},{"start":550.45,"end":552.45,"text":"我們是2024年2月DIO成立"},{"start":552.45,"end":554.45,"text":"那今年是2026年7月"},{"start":556.28,"end":558.28,"text":"那重點不是網站的建立而已"},{"start":558.28,"end":560.28,"text":"重點是背後的採購的這個原理"},{"start":560.99,"end":562.99,"text":"怎麼樣可以快速的來去"},{"start":562.99,"end":564.99,"text":"尋訪這些商人"},{"start":564.99,"end":566.99,"text":"而商人又可以快速的找到"},{"start":567.05,"end":569.05,"text":"DiU或Dio"},{"start":569.05,"end":571.05,"text":"我不知道我們現在的做法"},{"start":571.05,"end":573.05,"text":"我們的網站是要怎麼來去處理"},{"start":573.05,"end":575.05,"text":"快速找到我們的這些需求之後"},{"start":575.05,"end":577.05,"text":"他們才能夠提供他們的"},{"start":577.05,"end":579.05,"text":"解決方案可是他們提供他們的解決方案之後"},{"start":579.05,"end":581.05,"text":"如果又要走到"},{"start":581.05,"end":583.05,"text":"Coinface的採購流程的話"},{"start":583.53,"end":585.53,"text":"如果還是要走到無項的精進方案的話"},{"start":585.53,"end":587.53,"text":"我們遇到的問題還是一樣"},{"start":588.61,"end":590.61,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":591.11,"end":593.11,"text":"我認為部長可以大膽的來去思考一下"},{"start":593.11,"end":595.11,"text":"我們的"},{"start":596.22,"end":598.22,"text":"採購方案"},{"start":597.79,"end":599.79,"text":"有沒有需要"},{"start":599.57,"end":601.57,"text":"成立"},{"start":601.08,"end":603.08,"text":"快速迭代的這種狀況"},{"start":603.14,"end":605.14,"text":"要去做修正的"},{"start":605.14,"end":607.14,"text":"我們提出來"},{"start":605.71,"end":607.71,"text":"提出來我們的法案不見得"},{"start":607.71,"end":609.71,"text":"應該說在現在的國會環境可能沒有辦法"},{"start":611.55,"end":613.55,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":613.55,"end":615.55,"text":"但是一個開始"},{"start":615.55,"end":617.55,"text":"就是有一個草案讓我們來去看"},{"start":617.55,"end":619.55,"text":"有一個草案讓國內外的這個產業能夠知道"},{"start":619.55,"end":621.55,"text":"我們現在"},{"start":621.93,"end":623.93,"text":"如果有一天在我們國會"},{"start":624.84,"end":626.84,"text":"在更有利的環境"},{"start":626.84,"end":628.84,"text":"更友善的環境下可以去推動"},{"start":628.84,"end":630.84,"text":"這個部分我還是"},{"start":630.84,"end":632.84,"text":"很希望能夠去思考一下"},{"start":632.84,"end":634.84,"text":"不然我們就算有這個國防創新小組"},{"start":634.84,"end":636.84,"text":"就算有想要創新的目的"},{"start":636.84,"end":638.84,"text":"但是如果沒有以法規"},{"start":638.84,"end":640.84,"text":"做拘處"},{"start":640.84,"end":642.84,"text":"如果沒有辦法用快速採購快速武獲的方式的話"},{"start":642.84,"end":644.84,"text":"那我們還是會在原來的問題打轉"},{"start":644.84,"end":646.84,"text":"那這不是同仁們的錯"},{"start":646.84,"end":648.84,"text":"這只是結構上面"},{"start":648.84,"end":650.84,"text":"法律上面就是這樣子"},{"start":652.27,"end":654.27,"text":"部長有什麼簡單的回應嗎"},{"start":654.27,"end":656.27,"text":"是這個"},{"start":656.27,"end":658.27,"text":"因為採購法的修正"},{"start":658.27,"end":660.27,"text":"我們當然很願意來跟這個"},{"start":662.09,"end":664.09,"text":"公共工程委員會來討論"},{"start":664.09,"end":666.09,"text":"那我們現行的"},{"start":666.09,"end":668.09,"text":"能夠做法"},{"start":668.09,"end":670.09,"text":"當然就是說"},{"start":670.09,"end":672.09,"text":"如果有特別預算通過"},{"start":672.09,"end":674.09,"text":"有一個多年期"},{"start":674.09,"end":676.09,"text":"在交裝之後我們會有一個"},{"start":676.09,"end":678.09,"text":"叫做"},{"start":677.63,"end":679.63,"text":"回饋的資訊平台"},{"start":679.63,"end":681.63,"text":"這個回饋的資訊平台我們就"},{"start":681.63,"end":683.63,"text":"就"},{"start":683.25,"end":685.25,"text":"依照回饋"},{"start":685.25,"end":687.25,"text":"就回饋他們部隊的使用狀況"},{"start":687.25,"end":689.25,"text":"還有這個國際上"},{"start":689.25,"end":691.25,"text":"迭代更新的一些狀況"},{"start":691.25,"end":693.25,"text":"那我們就結合"},{"start":693.25,"end":695.25,"text":"公務員院、中科院"},{"start":695.25,"end":697.25,"text":"還有整平司啦"},{"start":697.25,"end":699.25,"text":"還有原廠還有這些軍種"},{"start":699.25,"end":701.25,"text":"我們就以一個"},{"start":701.25,"end":703.25,"text":"螺旋式的開發的概念"},{"start":703.25,"end":705.25,"text":"來逐步更新這個採購的規格"},{"start":705.25,"end":707.25,"text":"現在是在確保"},{"start":707.25,"end":709.25,"text":"就是說我們分年都能夠獲得"},{"start":709.25,"end":711.25,"text":"最新的機種"},{"start":711.25,"end":713.25,"text":"機型"},{"start":713.25,"end":715.25,"text":"那現在這個就是我們現在"},{"start":715.25,"end":717.25,"text":"在採購還沒有"},{"start":717.25,"end":719.25,"text":"修法的情況之下我們能夠"},{"start":719.25,"end":721.25,"text":"做到的部分"},{"start":721.25,"end":723.25,"text":"部長我先趕快點一下"},{"start":723.25,"end":725.25,"text":"因為你剛剛講到一個部分我覺得不錯"},{"start":725.25,"end":727.25,"text":"我還是想要回應"},{"start":727.25,"end":729.25,"text":"我為什麼一直在講這個"},{"start":729.25,"end":731.25,"text":"國防傳遞新小組的網站"},{"start":731.25,"end":733.25,"text":"我不是在講網站其實我是講的是平台"},{"start":733.25,"end":735.25,"text":"那這個平台的意義就是"},{"start":735.25,"end":737.25,"text":"像Break One一樣,烏克蘭那個平台"},{"start":737.25,"end":739.25,"text":"對我們這個就是"},{"start":739.25,"end":741.25,"text":"已經過兩年半沒關係"},{"start":741.25,"end":743.25,"text":"既然要做就不要只做這樣"},{"start":743.25,"end":745.25,"text":"就不要只做一種門面式的網站"},{"start":745.25,"end":747.25,"text":"而已,你就把它"},{"start":747.25,"end":749.25,"text":"思考成為一個平台,剛才你提到"},{"start":749.25,"end":751.25,"text":"很好啊,回饋嘛就是"},{"start":751.25,"end":753.25,"text":"怎麼樣把部隊的使用狀況回饋"},{"start":753.25,"end":755.25,"text":"我們現在是在和平時期"},{"start":755.25,"end":757.25,"text":"所以我們沒有作戰狀況,我們沒有像烏克蘭一樣"},{"start":757.25,"end":759.25,"text":"說,欸這一個武器的系統"},{"start":759.25,"end":761.25,"text":"它使用的狀況,它打擊的狀況"},{"start":761.25,"end":763.25,"text":"很好,所以我們可以馬上回饋"},{"start":764.08,"end":766.08,"text":"但我們有演習,我們有訓練"},{"start":766.08,"end":768.08,"text":"我們會有藍方跟紅方嗎"},{"start":769.18,"end":771.18,"text":"會嗎?會有這樣的對抗嗎?"},{"start":771.18,"end":773.18,"text":"會有演習,會有訓練,然後我們會有"},{"start":773.18,"end":775.18,"text":"商情的延續"},{"start":775.18,"end":777.18,"text":"所以上,我們儘量"},{"start":777.18,"end":779.18,"text":"學習烏克蘭Break One的"},{"start":779.18,"end":781.18,"text":"這個概念,然後來回饋"},{"start":781.18,"end":783.18,"text":"那個,不管是"},{"start":783.18,"end":785.18,"text":"透過訓練演性跟那個"},{"start":785.18,"end":787.18,"text":"商情"},{"start":787.18,"end":789.18,"text":"的一個收言"},{"start":789.18,"end":791.18,"text":"得到的一些"},{"start":791.18,"end":793.18,"text":"一些迭代的一些"},{"start":793.18,"end":795.18,"text":"創新的已經功能,然後我們來"},{"start":795.18,"end":797.18,"text":"在這個整個系統裡面"},{"start":797.18,"end":799.18,"text":"做互相回饋,那這個"},{"start":799.18,"end":801.18,"text":"誘因就是說,它願意做"},{"start":801.18,"end":803.18,"text":"迭代創新的話,它當然就會在"},{"start":803.18,"end":805.18,"text":"下一次的最有力標裡面"},{"start":805.18,"end":807.18,"text":"得到加分"},{"start":807.21,"end":809.21,"text":"好"},{"start":808.68,"end":810.68,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":809.81,"end":811.81,"text":"好,謝謝部長"},{"start":811.26,"end":813.26,"text":"好"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:44:48.363333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:44:48.696667+08:00","text":"你好，請部長。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T12:44:49.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:44:50.500000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:44:50.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:44:58.150000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:44:58.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:45:11.160000+08:00","text":"部長，網路降速及相關演練大概是在8月13號會執行，這個時間點應該沒錯吧？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:45:12.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:45:19.343333+08:00","text":"應該是分兩個時段，有包含14個縣市。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:45:20.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:45:21.676667+08:00","text":"是，包含14個縣市……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:45:22.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:45:23.610000+08:00","text":"也包括嘉義。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:45:24.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:45:25.760000+08:00","text":"也有包括我們嘉義。對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:45:26.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:45:37.760000+08:00","text":"所以中部是在8月10號，北部的話是在8月13號，而中部最南應該是到我們嘉義。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:45:38.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:45:48.996667+08:00","text":"對，中部從苗栗一直到嘉義，北部是從宜蘭一直到新竹。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:45:49.996667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:45:54.830000+08:00","text":"這部分是配合我國的漢光演習？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:45:55.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:45:58.610000+08:00","text":"這個所採的時段……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:45:58.610000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:46:00.360000+08:00","text":"時間點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:46:00.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:46:26.960000+08:00","text":"時段確實是在我們漢光演習的時間，因為之前全社會防衛韌性演習都會希望能夠結合漢光演習實施，所以才會有在漢光演習的時間搭配漢光的進程做相關的全社會防衛韌性演練。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:46:27.693333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:46:57.193333+08:00","text":"而行動網路的降速，因為今年是第一次弄，所以我想這個部分，行政院確實也會進一步再做一個比較完整的說明，演練在通訊網路降速而受阻的情況之下，讓民眾能夠理解，在緊急的狀態之下確實也有發生這種問題的可能性。了解。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:46:59.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:47:35.650000+08:00","text":"我今天特別提到這個時間點，跟我們為什麼要做這件事情，主要是要提醒我們所有國民，類似這樣子的狀況，事先提醒是在做預備的演練，中方是可能在任何一個時間點、在我們沒有任何準備的狀況之下，對我們產生或者是對我們做出任何攻擊威脅，包含剛才講到的，現在是降網速，可能最後會斷網，就是中共可能直接把我們斷網，這些狀況基本上都有可能。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:47:35.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:48:08.968182+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，防空演習之前就有做警報發放、疏散避難、交通管制等等這些演練，也都是從某些地區逐步擴大，而行動網路的降速也是在我們可能設想的情況範圍之內，讓民眾知道可能會有這個狀況，當然很多委員都指教可能還需要做更周延的說明……","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:48:09.721429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:48:20.968182+08:00","text":"我不太確定，原因是因為我們之所以要做這樣的演練，不就是要做好第一個是有突發狀況的、第二個是沒有突發狀況的事前演練。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:48:22.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:48:41.800000+08:00","text":"當然第一次的這種演練，事先說明可以降低民眾的恐慌，但是俄羅斯也沒有給烏克蘭機會讓他們去演練，所以我還是認為……今天早上有記者詢問為什麼選擇在這個時間點，為什麼不再往後延一點，等到民眾更能夠準備好？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:48:42.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:48:48.179091+08:00","text":"可是這樣變成永遠都不知道什麼時候才是正確的時間點，永遠都不知道什麼時候才可以做第一次這樣的演練。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:48:49.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:49:03.650000+08:00","text":"所以我認為有相關的做法是正確的，不過我們也要注意幾件事情，軍事情報處處長有在嗎？是。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:49:05.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:49:11.115000+08:00","text":"我擔心的是有沒有可能中共已經確知我們8月這兩次，一次是北部、一次是中部的時間點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:49:13.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:49:34.811429+08:00","text":"在這個時間裡面他們可能會給我們降網速，中共有沒有辦法或者是有沒有接獲相關的情報，也會在同樣的時間點直接執行降我們的網速、斷我們的網路，然後直接把它歸咎成為我國內部技術或者是技術性沒有辦法恢復網速，然後歸咎於我們的行政部門？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:49:35.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:49:58.648182+08:00","text":"也就是，在我們演練的時候直接執行攻擊，執行攻擊之後再否認他們執行攻擊，因為我們也是在那個時間點對我國的部分地區做出網路的降速，那就是「偽旗行動」，這樣子的「偽旗行動」在俄羅斯對烏克蘭的行動中多次出現，你們有沒有接獲相關情報？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:49:58.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:50:02.607778+08:00","text":"以及如果真的會這麼處理的話，你們要怎麼樣反制？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:50:02.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:50:31.330000+08:00","text":"是，委員的提醒，可能我們會來加以轉達，主要是因為過去在一些可能的相關場合，包括不管是針對性軍演或者是怎麼樣，我們都會成立相關的跨部會小組，包括跟相關部會做好有關資安的聯防機制。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:50:31.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:50:36.413333+08:00","text":"至於你現在提到的這個問題，我覺得是可以來考量。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:50:38.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:51:03.530000+08:00","text":"部長，我今天提到這個可能的問題，我們希望它不要發生，它不是做資安的防護而已，因為防護是一回事，但這其實是情報的操作，甚至是資訊的操作，那它就不是單純的技術問題，包括怎麼樣防止中共的網軍、怎麼樣防止中共的cyber攻擊、然後DDoS等等，不是！","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:51:03.922857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:51:13.030000+08:00","text":"而是這麼做的話，他們是要把這個東西轉移成為是我們行政端技術上的失敗，無法把網速往回提升。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:51:13.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:51:29.516154+08:00","text":"所以萬一有這樣的情報，第一時間也要跟民眾說，這也是有可能的風險，如果我是中共的話，我一定會在那個時間點做出相應的做法，因為沒有任何證據，它會陷入無止境的資訊戰跟輿論戰，因為你不會知道什麼是真的。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:51:29.836667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:51:39.170000+08:00","text":"您的意見，我想我們會轉達給相關的部會，包括NCC、數發部等等，我請他們再做個研判。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:51:39.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:51:47.384286+08:00","text":"OK，麻煩軍情單位可能也要做好準備，因為我們事先提醒、事先把它講出來……","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:51:47.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:51:49.503333+08:00","text":"對，我們應該會大家互相協作。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:51:50.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:51:51.420000+08:00","text":"這個滿重要的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:51:51.836667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:52:14.417778+08:00","text":"第二點，關於採購的部分，今天我聽到很多委員都有提到一些延宕、一些細節，或者單指哪一個場、哪一件事情，但我覺得這樣子的方式沒有辦法解決一些根本上的問題。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:52:15.409231+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:52:38.447778+08:00","text":"最開始提出的五項精進作為其實都是在我們現有的政府採購法框架裡面，基本上你們沒有提到一些可能會遇到的最大問題，比方OTA、比方為什麼當初美國的聯邦採購法沒有辦法在美國有效執行國防快速的變革？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:52:38.447778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:52:41.620000+08:00","text":"因為曠日費時！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:52:41.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:52:58.890000+08:00","text":"等到要採購某一個武器裝備的時候，這個武器裝備搞不好已經過時了，這是20年前的事情、這是30年前的事情，但現在是每半年……在烏克蘭的話基本上是每三個禮拜，甚至是每兩個禮拜就是一個循環，技術就必須要革新。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:52:59.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:53:08.423333+08:00","text":"在這樣的狀況之下，單純地用各位的五項精進作為可能沒有辦法直接解決這樣的問題，它必須要有修法端去做。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:53:10.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:53:39.746667+08:00","text":"每次我們聽到DIO（國防創新小組）成立，最常聽到的就是現有的政府採購法等等，然後沒有辦法用很快速的方式去採購，也沒有像OTA這種其他的交易授權方式，也沒有MTA這種中間層的採購方式，也沒有美國各種各樣的採購新法規去做處理，所以它就還是懸在那裡、還是放在那邊！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:53:40.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:54:20.896154+08:00","text":"所以儘管我們有一個國防創新小組，但它可能就只是一個大型的名片交換公司，它跟很多美國的創新企業交換名片，有些時候他們也沒辦法交換、有時候別人找不到我們，因為我們到現在也沒有網站，2024年2月DIO成立，今年是2026年7月底，其實重點不是網站的建立而已，重點是背後的採購原理怎麼樣可以快速尋訪這些商源，而商源又可以快速找到DIU或DIO，我不知道我們現在的做法、我們的網站是要怎麼去處理。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:54:21.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:54:35.348182+08:00","text":"快速找到我們這些需求之後，他們才能夠提供他們的解決方案，可是他們提供解決方案之後，如果又要走到曠日廢時的採購流程的話、如果還是要走到五項精進方案的話，我們遇到的問題還是一樣！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:54:37.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:54:52.473333+08:00","text":"這個部分，我認為部長可以大膽的思考一下，我們的採購法有沒有需要針對快速迭代這種狀況要做修正，然後提出來？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:54:53.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:55:16.673333+08:00","text":"但是提出來，我們提出來的法案不見得……應該說在現在的國會環境可能沒有辦法修正通過，但是是一個開始，就是有一個草案可以讓我們去看，有一個草案，可以讓國內外的產業知道，如果有一天我們國會的環境變得更有利、更友善，就可以去推動。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:55:16.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:55:38.617778+08:00","text":"這個部分我還是很希望能夠去思考一下，不然我們就算有這個國防創新小組，就算有想要創新的目的，但是如果沒有法規作基礎，如果沒有辦法用快速採購、快速武獲的方式的話，我們還是會在原來的問題上打轉，這不是同仁們的錯，只是結構上面、法律上面就是這樣子。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:55:40.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:55:42.088182+08:00","text":"部長有什麼簡單的回應嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:55:42.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:56:48.850000+08:00","text":"是，因為採購法的修正，我們當然很願意來跟公共工程委員會討論，我們現行的作法就是，特別預算通過有一個多年期，我們在交裝之後會有一個叫做回饋的資訊平台，我們在這個回饋資訊平台上回饋他們部隊的使用狀況，還有國際上迭代更新的狀況，我們會結合工研院、中科院、整評司、原廠還有各軍種，以一個螺旋式的開發概念來逐步更新採購的規格，現在是在確保我們分年都能夠獲得最新的機型，這是我們在採購法沒有修法的情況之下能夠做到的部分。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:56:49.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:56:54.964286+08:00","text":"部長，我先趕快點一下，因為你剛剛講到一個部分，我覺得不錯，還是想要回應。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:56:55.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:56:59.050000+08:00","text":"我為什麼一直在講國防創新小組的網站？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:56:59.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:57:05.027778+08:00","text":"我不是在講網站，其實我講的是平台，這個平台的意義就像烏克蘭Brave 1那個平台一樣……","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:57:05.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:57:06.964286+08:00","text":"對，我們這個就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:57:07.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:57:16.173077+08:00","text":"所以為什麼它……已經過兩年半，沒關係，既然要做就不要只做一種門面式的網站而已，你就把它思考成為一個平台。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:57:16.480769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:57:18.500000+08:00","text":"剛才你提到的很好，回饋嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:57:18.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:57:35.880000+08:00","text":"就是怎麼樣回饋部隊的使用狀況，我們現在是在和平時期，我們沒有作戰狀況，沒有辦法像烏克蘭一樣，可以馬上回饋這一個武器的系統使用的狀況、打擊的狀況很好，但我們有演習、有訓練，我們會有藍方跟紅方嘛，有嗎？對。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:57:37.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:57:38.846667+08:00","text":"會有這樣的對抗嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-20T12:57:39.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:58:14.680000+08:00","text":"會有演習、會有訓練，然後我們會有商情的研析，所以我們儘量學習烏克蘭Brave 1的概念，然後來回饋，不管是透過訓練、演訓或商情的蒐研得到的迭代創新及功能，我們在這整個系統裡面互相回饋，這個誘因就在於如果他願意做迭代創新的話，當然就會在下一次的最有利標裡面得到加分。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-20T12:58:15.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-20T12:58:18.610000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-20T12:58:19.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-20T12:58:48.824286+08:00","text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束；本日會議有黃仁委員、王定宇委員、洪毓祥委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，刊登公報；委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復的部分，或要求補充資料者，請國防部二周內以書面答復，委員有約定期限者，從其所定。","quality":0.01}]},"gazette":{"lineno":842,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時44分）你好，請部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，網路降速及相關演練大概是在8月13號會執行，這個時間點應該沒錯吧？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是分兩個時段，有包含14個縣市。"],["陳委員冠廷：是，包含14個縣市……"],["顧部長立雄：也包括嘉義。"],["陳委員冠廷：也有包括我們嘉義。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以中部是在8月10號，北部的話是在8月13號，而中部最南應該是到我們嘉義。"],["顧部長立雄：對，中部從苗栗一直到嘉義，北部是從宜蘭一直到新竹。"],["陳委員冠廷：這部分是配合我國的漢光演習？"],["顧部長立雄：這個所採的時段……"],["陳委員冠廷：時間點……"],["顧部長立雄：時段確實是在我們漢光演習的時間，因為之前全社會防衛韌性演習都會希望能夠結合漢光演習實施，所以才會有在漢光演習的時間搭配漢光的進程做相關的全社會防衛韌性演練。而行動網路的降速，因為今年是第一次弄，所以我想這個部分，行政院確實也會進一步再做一個比較完整的說明，演練在通訊網路降速而受阻的情況之下，讓民眾能夠理解，在緊急的狀態之下確實也有發生這種問題的可能性。"],["陳委員冠廷：了解。我今天特別提到這個時間點，跟我們為什麼要做這件事情，主要是要提醒我們所有國民，類似這樣子的狀況，事先提醒是在做預備的演練，中方是可能在任何一個時間點、在我們沒有任何準備的狀況之下，對我們產生或者是對我們做出任何攻擊威脅，包含剛才講到的，現在是降網速，可能最後會斷網，就是中共可能直接把我們斷網，這些狀況基本上都有可能。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，防空演習之前就有做警報發放、疏散避難、交通管制等等這些演練，也都是從某些地區逐步擴大，而行動網路的降速也是在我們可能設想的情況範圍之內，讓民眾知道可能會有這個狀況，當然很多委員都指教可能還需要做更周延的說明……"],["陳委員冠廷：我不太確定，原因是因為我們之所以要做這樣的演練，不就是要做好第一個是有突發狀況的、第二個是沒有突發狀況的事前演練。當然第一次的這種演練，事先說明可以降低民眾的恐慌，但是俄羅斯也沒有給烏克蘭機會讓他們去演練，所以我還是認為……今天早上有記者詢問為什麼選擇在這個時間點，為什麼不再往後延一點，等到民眾更能夠準備好？可是這樣變成永遠都不知道什麼時候才是正確的時間點，永遠都不知道什麼時候才可以做第一次這樣的演練。所以我認為有相關的做法是正確的，不過我們也要注意幾件事情，軍事情報處處長有在嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我擔心的是有沒有可能中共已經確知我們8月這兩次，一次是北部、一次是中部的時間點？在這個時間裡面他們可能會給我們降網速，中共有沒有辦法或者是有沒有接獲相關的情報，也會在同樣的時間點直接執行降我們的網速、斷我們的網路，然後直接把它歸咎成為我國內部技術或者是技術性沒有辦法恢復網速，然後歸咎於我們的行政部門？也就是，在我們演練的時候直接執行攻擊，執行攻擊之後再否認他們執行攻擊，因為我們也是在那個時間點對我國的部分地區做出網路的降速，那就是「偽旗行動」，這樣子的「偽旗行動」在俄羅斯對烏克蘭的行動中多次出現，你們有沒有接獲相關情報？以及如果真的會這麼處理的話，你們要怎麼樣反制？"],["顧部長立雄：是，委員的提醒，可能我們會來加以轉達，主要是因為過去在一些可能的相關場合，包括不管是針對性軍演或者是怎麼樣，我們都會成立相關的跨部會小組，包括跟相關部會做好有關資安的聯防機制。至於你現在提到的這個問題，我覺得是可以來考量。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我今天提到這個可能的問題，我們希望它不要發生，它不是做資安的防護而已，因為防護是一回事，但這其實是情報的操作，甚至是資訊的操作，那它就不是單純的技術問題，包括怎麼樣防止中共的網軍、怎麼樣防止中共的cyber攻擊、然後DDoS等等，不是！而是這麼做的話，他們是要把這個東西轉移成為是我們行政端技術上的失敗，無法把網速往回提升。所以萬一有這樣的情報，第一時間也要跟民眾說，這也是有可能的風險，如果我是中共的話，我一定會在那個時間點做出相應的做法，因為沒有任何證據，它會陷入無止境的資訊戰跟輿論戰，因為你不會知道什麼是真的。"],["顧部長立雄：您的意見，我想我們會轉達給相關的部會，包括NCC、數發部等等，我請他們再做個研判。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，麻煩軍情單位可能也要做好準備，因為我們事先提醒、事先把它講出來……"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們應該會大家互相協作。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個滿重要的。","第二點，關於採購的部分，今天我聽到很多委員都有提到一些延宕、一些細節，或者單指哪一個場、哪一件事情，但我覺得這樣子的方式沒有辦法解決一些根本上的問題。最開始提出的五項精進作為其實都是在我們現有的政府採購法框架裡面，基本上你們沒有提到一些可能會遇到的最大問題，比方OTA、比方為什麼當初美國的聯邦採購法沒有辦法在美國有效執行國防快速的變革？因為曠日費時！等到要採購某一個武器裝備的時候，這個武器裝備搞不好已經過時了，這是20年前的事情、這是30年前的事情，但現在是每半年……在烏克蘭的話基本上是每三個禮拜，甚至是每兩個禮拜就是一個循環，技術就必須要革新。在這樣的狀況之下，單純地用各位的五項精進作為可能沒有辦法直接解決這樣的問題，它必須要有修法端去做。","每次我們聽到DIO（國防創新小組）成立，最常聽到的就是現有的政府採購法等等，然後沒有辦法用很快速的方式去採購，也沒有像OTA這種其他的交易授權方式，也沒有MTA這種中間層的採購方式，也沒有美國各種各樣的採購新法規去做處理，所以它就還是懸在那裡、還是放在那邊！所以儘管我們有一個國防創新小組，但它可能就只是一個大型的名片交換公司，它跟很多美國的創新企業交換名片，有些時候他們也沒辦法交換、有時候別人找不到我們，因為我們到現在也沒有網站，2024年2月DIO成立，今年是2026年7月底，其實重點不是網站的建立而已，重點是背後的採購原理怎麼樣可以快速尋訪這些商源，而商源又可以快速找到DIU或DIO，我不知道我們現在的做法、我們的網站是要怎麼去處理。快速找到我們這些需求之後，他們才能夠提供他們的解決方案，可是他們提供解決方案之後，如果又要走到曠日廢時的採購流程的話、如果還是要走到五項精進方案的話，我們遇到的問題還是一樣！","這個部分，我認為部長可以大膽的思考一下，我們的採購法有沒有需要針對快速迭代這種狀況要做修正，然後提出來？但是提出來，我們提出來的法案不見得……應該說在現在的國會環境可能沒有辦法修正通過，但是是一個開始，就是有一個草案可以讓我們去看，有一個草案，可以讓國內外的產業知道，如果有一天我們國會的環境變得更有利、更友善，就可以去推動。這個部分我還是很希望能夠去思考一下，不然我們就算有這個國防創新小組，就算有想要創新的目的，但是如果沒有法規作基礎，如果沒有辦法用快速採購、快速武獲的方式的話，我們還是會在原來的問題上打轉，這不是同仁們的錯，只是結構上面、法律上面就是這樣子。部長有什麼簡單的回應嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，因為採購法的修正，我們當然很願意來跟公共工程委員會討論，我們現行的作法就是，特別預算通過有一個多年期，我們在交裝之後會有一個叫做回饋的資訊平台，我們在這個回饋資訊平台上回饋他們部隊的使用狀況，還有國際上迭代更新的狀況，我們會結合工研院、中科院、整評司、原廠還有各軍種，以一個螺旋式的開發概念來逐步更新採購的規格，現在是在確保我們分年都能夠獲得最新的機型，這是我們在採購法沒有修法的情況之下能夠做到的部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我先趕快點一下，因為你剛剛講到一個部分，我覺得不錯，還是想要回應。我為什麼一直在講國防創新小組的網站？我不是在講網站，其實我講的是平台，這個平台的意義就像烏克蘭Brave 1那個平台一樣……"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們這個就是……"],["陳委員冠廷：所以為什麼它……已經過兩年半，沒關係，既然要做就不要只做一種門面式的網站而已，你就把它思考成為一個平台。剛才你提到的很好，回饋嘛！就是怎麼樣回饋部隊的使用狀況，我們現在是在和平時期，我們沒有作戰狀況，沒有辦法像烏克蘭一樣，可以馬上回饋這一個武器的系統使用的狀況、打擊的狀況很好，但我們有演習、有訓練，我們會有藍方跟紅方嘛，有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：會有這樣的對抗嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：會有演習、會有訓練，然後我們會有商情的研析，所以我們儘量學習烏克蘭Brave 1的概念，然後來回饋，不管是透過訓練、演訓或商情的蒐研得到的迭代創新及功能，我們在這整個系統裡面互相回饋，這個誘因就在於如果他願意做迭代創新的話，當然就會在下一次的最有利標裡面得到加分。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束；本日會議有黃仁委員、王定宇委員、洪毓祥委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，刊登公報；委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復的部分，或要求補充資料者，請國防部二周內以書面答復，委員有約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-27","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳永康","牛煦庭","王義川","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","王安祥","黃建賓","許忠信","謝龍介","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","洪毓祥","賴士葆","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","葉元之","陳冠廷","黃仁","王定宇"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2026-07-20"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍軍品採購履約爭議與違約致獲裝期程延宕採購策略精進作\n為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156401_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}