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6-07-22T09:16:10.846154+08:00","text":"剛才說沒有設置的話就罰錢，請問，你們要怎麼協助他們？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:16:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:16:20.777778+08:00","text":"報告委員，這就是我剛剛提到的，為什麼我們要跟相關利害關係人做具體討論，要實際可行才可以。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:16:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:16:22.800000+08:00","text":"相關的利害關係人是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:16:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:16:23.666667+08:00","text":"比如說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:16:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:16:25.818182+08:00","text":"就是剛剛你提到的所謂用電大戶。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:16:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:16:30.666667+08:00","text":"是我講的這些商辦、商場或者AI資料中心？對、對。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:16:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:16:46.800000+08:00","text":"最近有一個業者來找我討論，他們想要在這些商辦或者大型商場設置所謂的高效率天然氣發電機組，部長，你知道這件事情嗎？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:16:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:16:48.750000+08:00","text":"就是固定式的這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:16:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:17:04.800000+08:00","text":"對，固定式的所謂天然氣發電機組，可是現在法令規定不清楚，這些天然氣機組的設置是屬於經濟部主管，還是地方政府主管？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:17:05.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:17:29.700000+08:00","text":"譬如設在臺北市的商場或所謂的辦公大樓裡，可是臺北市又有都市計畫相關管理條例，部長，這個當然是很細節，所以未來你們在子法的討論上，是不是應該跨部會來討論相關子法的訂定？對。","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:17:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:17:44.727273+08:00","text":"我們不能一開始就告訴他們不設的話要罰錢，而是應該告訴他們要怎麼設，包括這些儲電設備、發電設備在都會地區能夠怎麼設？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:17:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:17:49.800000+08:00","text":"其實這些現在大概都還是一個很模糊的概念，能不能請部長說明一下？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:17:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:18:06.800000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，就像你講的、這個事實上是非常多元而複雜，所以我們會找利害關係人，包括地方政府、相關消防單位，跨單位、跨機構討論，讓這個方向可以具體可行往下走。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:18:08.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:18:11.750000+08:00","text":"好，這個部分什麼時候要開始具體進行？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:18:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:18:19.727273+08:00","text":"只要這個法案通過後，一般在半年內子法就要設立完成……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:18:20.909091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:18:40.818182+08:00","text":"部長，如果要等法令通過後，才把子法設立完成，我覺得時序上可能會有一點慢，是不是現在就應該到各地區聽取各業界或者未來有可能被列為用電大戶的你所謂的利害關係人的意見跟想法？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:18:41.444444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:18:55.882353+08:00","text":"現在他們很多應該都有想要設置儲能或自用發電的供電設備，但礙於法令規定，可能窒礙難行，他們也不知道要怎麼申請，所以是不是請你們能夠聽取他們的意見？","quality":0.716},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:18:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:19:09.777778+08:00","text":"是、是，我們初步已經辦過兩場，後續還會持續辦理，如果大家對今天的討論方向可以認同，那我們會加緊辦理，把場次再擴充。好。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:19:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:19:43.777778+08:00","text":"另外再請教部長，你們的第六條之一提到所謂的供應事業要去識別化，並公布他們的一些用電資訊等等，部長覺得這會不會涉及個資法，或者對於有些營業秘密……雖然你們把公司名字弄掉，但其實有心人還是很容易推估、很容易判別。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:19:44.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:19:51.857143+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們所謂的去識別化，就是要做到讓它沒有辦法判讀，要做到這個部分，不是只有……","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:19:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:20:02.785714+08:00","text":"你覺得以現在的科技進程跟現在的網路搜尋，如何讓它做到沒有辦法判別？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:20:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:20:40.500000+08:00","text":"我覺得很難，你只要公布是在哪一個工業區、哪一個區塊、哪一個地段、用電量多少，其實很容易追溯，這個部分你們應該再好好的、慎重的思考，甚至我覺得這個跟本席提的法條其實是有一些關聯性，我的法條提到，任何人不得故意散播影響國家能源供應、國家能源基礎設施跟違反科學依據的能源相關不實謠言或假訊息，這你支持嗎？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:20:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:20:43.812500+08:00","text":"我們開放討論，方向上我們也覺得是支持……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:20:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:20:48.800000+08:00","text":"部長，散播對國家能源不實的訊息，你還跟我說要開放討論！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:20:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:20:52.750000+08:00","text":"我問你支不支持，你連「支持」這兩個字都不敢講……有啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:20:52.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T09:20:53.750000+08:00","text":"我有講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:20:53.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T09:20:54.750000+08:00","text":"你哪有講？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:20:53.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:20:55.666667+08:00","text":"你是講說要開放討論。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:20:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:20:58.727273+08:00","text":"後面我說方向上我支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:21:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:21:02.750000+08:00","text":"部長，我想是這樣啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-22T09:21:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:21:57.666667+08:00","text":"其實我很不想跟你大聲，但你剛剛講的這一些，對於用電業者、公司的所謂去識別化部分，在機敏資料的保護上，我覺得你們可能還要再持續考慮、三思，還要再更緊密的思考，因為我不認為你這樣講，別人就完全推估不出來或者找不出來這些企業大戶的用電資訊，我覺得本席提的法案對於國家的能源基礎建設是非常重大的，我也期待行政院能夠支持，不要跟我講說你開放討論，因為我覺得散播不實謠言這個區塊，不管在哪一個方位上來講，政府都應該大力打擊這些散播假訊息者，好不好？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:21:57.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T09:21:58.666667+08:00","text":"同意、同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T09:21:58.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:21:59.400000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝邱議瑩委員，部長先回座。","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T09:21:59.900000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T09:22:03.614286+08:00","text":"我們先來確定上次會議議事錄。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T09:22:03.914286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T09:22:08.771429+08:00","text":"請問在場委員，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T09:22:09.071429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T09:22:11.928571+08:00","text":"（無）沒有錯誤，議事錄確定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T09:22:12.228571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T09:22:14.228571+08:00","text":"好，繼續進行質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T09:22:14.528571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T09:22:17.671429+08:00","text":"下一位質詢請陳亭妃委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1145,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時13分）謝謝主席。我請一下龔部長。"],["主席：請經濟部龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：邱委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。我想請教部長，今天討論能源管理法的修正草案，先來看第十條。剛剛您的報告裡頭也很清楚地談到，我們在第十條的修正內容是希望這些用電大戶能夠自行設置所謂的發電跟儲能設備，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，請教第一個問題，您所謂用電大戶，大概用電多少算是用電大戶，依照我們的再生能源管理條例是5,000瓩算是用電大戶，這個標準有沒有改變？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們是希望在子法裡面來做一些討論，會跟相關業者也做一些討論，不過大致上……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以用電大戶的定義，你還沒有定出來？多少叫做用電大戶，這個要在子法裡面做討論？"],["龔部長明鑫：對、對。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是你母法裡面就直接寫用電大戶，我不知道什麼叫用電大戶，到時候我要怎麼跟你繼續討論下去？"],["龔部長明鑫：事實上，大致上剛剛委員提到的這個，我們會衡平一下……"],["邱委員議瑩：如果是比照再生能源條例的這5,000瓩，算是用電大戶，未來的標準會改變嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：子法大致上是這個方向，我們還會跟利害關係人做一些討論，不過委員剛剛提的是一個大概的基礎，會以那個為基礎。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，第二個問題想請教，如果你這樣子界定所謂用電大戶的定義之後，我們的這個條文內容寫得非常清楚，要他設置自用發電及儲能設備，而這些用電大戶未來不可能只有工廠，對不對？有可能是大型商辦、大型商場，或是一些企業的總部、資料中心等等，未來這些AI大數據資料中心很可能會設立在所謂的都會區，我進一步請教，都會區裡的這些建築，非常有可能缺乏所謂的大面積可以讓他們做儲能設備，或者有大面積可以讓他們做所謂的太陽能光電，那它要如何符合條文規定設置自用發電跟儲能設備？如果沒有足夠的空間，它不是不設，而是根本沒有腹地可以設，請教要怎麼辦？剛才說沒有設置的話就罰錢，請問，你們要怎麼協助他們？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，這就是我剛剛提到的，為什麼我們要跟相關利害關係人做具體討論，要實際可行才可以。"],["邱委員議瑩：相關的利害關係人是誰？比如說。"],["龔部長明鑫：就是剛剛你提到的所謂用電大戶。"],["邱委員議瑩：是我講的這些商辦、商場或者AI資料中心？"],["龔部長明鑫：對、對。"],["邱委員議瑩：最近有一個業者來找我討論，他們想要在這些商辦或者大型商場設置所謂的高效率天然氣發電機組，部長，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是固定式的這個……"],["邱委員議瑩：對，固定式的所謂天然氣發電機組，可是現在法令規定不清楚，這些天然氣機組的設置是屬於經濟部主管，還是地方政府主管？譬如設在臺北市的商場或所謂的辦公大樓裡，可是臺北市又有都市計畫相關管理條例，部長，這個當然是很細節，所以未來你們在子法的討論上，是不是應該跨部會來討論相關子法的訂定？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：我們不能一開始就告訴他們不設的話要罰錢，而是應該告訴他們要怎麼設，包括這些儲電設備、發電設備在都會地區能夠怎麼設？其實這些現在大概都還是一個很模糊的概念，能不能請部長說明一下？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，跟委員報告，就像你講的、這個事實上是非常多元而複雜，所以我們會找利害關係人，包括地方政府、相關消防單位，跨單位、跨機構討論，讓這個方向可以具體可行往下走。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，這個部分什麼時候要開始具體進行？"],["龔部長明鑫：只要這個法案通過後，一般在半年內子法就要設立完成……"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，如果要等法令通過後，才把子法設立完成，我覺得時序上可能會有一點慢，是不是現在就應該到各地區聽取各業界或者未來有可能被列為用電大戶的你所謂的利害關係人的意見跟想法？現在他們很多應該都有想要設置儲能或自用發電的供電設備，但礙於法令規定，可能窒礙難行，他們也不知道要怎麼申請，所以是不是請你們能夠聽取他們的意見？"],["龔部長明鑫：是、是，我們初步已經辦過兩場，後續還會持續辦理，如果大家對今天的討論方向可以認同，那我們會加緊辦理，把場次再擴充。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。另外再請教部長，你們的第六條之一提到所謂的供應事業要去識別化，並公布他們的一些用電資訊等等，部長覺得這會不會涉及個資法，或者對於有些營業秘密……雖然你們把公司名字弄掉，但其實有心人還是很容易推估、很容易判別。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們所謂的去識別化，就是要做到讓它沒有辦法判讀，要做到這個部分，不是只有……"],["邱委員議瑩：你覺得以現在的科技進程跟現在的網路搜尋，如何讓它做到沒有辦法判別？我覺得很難，你只要公布是在哪一個工業區、哪一個區塊、哪一個地段、用電量多少，其實很容易追溯，這個部分你們應該再好好的、慎重的思考，甚至我覺得這個跟本席提的法條其實是有一些關聯性，我的法條提到，任何人不得故意散播影響國家能源供應、國家能源基礎設施跟違反科學依據的能源相關不實謠言或假訊息，這你支持嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們開放討論，方向上我們也覺得是支持……"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，散播對國家能源不實的訊息，你還跟我說要開放討論！我問你支不支持，你連「支持」這兩個字都不敢講……"],["龔部長明鑫：有啊！我有講啊！"],["邱委員議瑩：你哪有講？你是講說要開放討論。"],["龔部長明鑫：後面我說方向上我支持。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我想是這樣啦！其實我很不想跟你大聲，但你剛剛講的這一些，對於用電業者、公司的所謂去識別化部分，在機敏資料的保護上，我覺得你們可能還要再持續考慮、三思，還要再更緊密的思考，因為我不認為你這樣講，別人就完全推估不出來或者找不出來這些企業大戶的用電資訊，我覺得本席提的法案對於國家的能源基礎建設是非常重大的，我也期待行政院能夠支持，不要跟我講說你開放討論，因為我覺得散播不實謠言這個區塊，不管在哪一個方位上來講，政府都應該大力打擊這些散播假訊息者，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：同意、同意。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱議瑩委員，部長先回座。","我們先來確定上次會議議事錄。請問在場委員，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤？（無）沒有錯誤，議事錄確定。","好，繼續進行質詢。下一位質詢請陳亭妃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-19-22","speakers":["邱志偉","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","洪毓祥","呂玉玲","陳超明","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","傅崐萁","蔡易餘","張嘉郡","賴瑞隆"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2026-07-22"],"gazette_id":"1156601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查：(一)本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「能源管理法第七條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員蔡其昌等19人擬具\n「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員鍾佳濱等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一\n條文草案」案；二、審查：(六)行政院函請審議「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員郭國文等\n16人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案、(九)本院委員徐欣瑩\n等16人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具\n「能源管理法第二條條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員楊瓊瓔等23人擬具「能源管理法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員陳亭妃等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、 (十\n三)本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156601_00016"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}