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審查委員分別擬具勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案計30案2 審查委員黨團分別擬具就業服務法部分條文修正草案計12案本日會議討論思想採綜合詢答"},{"start":1780.482,"end":1804.091,"text":"經委員林國成 王育敏 蘇清泉 林建啟 徐欣盈 屠權吉及陳昭芝代表臺灣民眾黨黨團說明提案指去由勞動部部長說明後 委員林月琴等22人提出質詢均經勞動部部長 行政院主計總處基金預算處專門委員黃厚吉及財政部國庫署主任秘書羅信榮及各相關主管等即席答覆"},{"start":1804.871,"end":1822.547,"text":"決議一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆後請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案等三十案及就業服務法部分條文修正草案等十二案均另則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1825.762,"end":1852.33,"text":"好請問委員會上市議事錄有錯誤或疑慮之處沒有謝謝那我們就議事錄確定那本會議議程為第一邀請環境部部長列起報告業務概況並備質詢第二邀請環境部長就聯合國第三世界氣候峰會之後臺灣氣候治理方向與如何提升臺灣氣候變遷績效指標名次落實二零五零近年"},{"start":1853.8,"end":1869.33,"text":"排放路徑策略進行專題報告並備諮詢那以上業務報告及專題報告採綜合詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員第一位是陳昭之城委員第二位是王振旭王委員"},{"start":1873.27,"end":1889.916,"text":"環境部長 彭啟明氣候變遷署署長 蔡玲怡資源循環署署長 賴盈盈化學物質管理署署長 蔡孟玉環境管理署署長 顏旭明"},{"start":1892.509,"end":1903.554,"text":"國家環境研究院副院長 吳月春綜合規劃師 師長 洪淑慶環境保護師 副師長 呂雅文大氣環境師 師長 黃偉明水質保護師 師長 王玉斌環境資訊科技師 師長 張順興人事處 處長 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海沒有啦但是整個量能在國內的任何的議題都有我們的事所以我們的目標是希望以科學為基礎推動淨零轉型跟資源循環打造健康安全永續的臺灣而且我們現在做這些事情不是只有臺灣做也必須跟國際接軌我們希望跟全球共做"},{"start":1987.25,"end":2005.727,"text":"落實這些的目標但是我們要做這些事其實在過去幾個月從7月開始我們就不斷的遇到極端的天氣事件的影響包含丹納斯颱風這個有史以來最強的風造成嘉義布袋的衝擊然後完了之後就是近乎莫拉克等級的雨量"},{"start":2006.167,"end":2024.363,"text":"然後再下來這個華家沙颱風造成這個馬家安這個煙澀湖的一個事件所以也對造成說我們環境的議題就過去這幾個月本部的所有同仁都在忙在處理光電板處理這個實棉還有廢棄物的處理還有馬灘安的在後的環境復原那目前這幾個呢"},{"start":2026.324,"end":2048.459,"text":"馬太安的這個事情呢我們先說其實目前呢這個已經佔置了大概70幾萬噸未來我們預期會有100萬噸那目前呢我們會朝比較去化來處理因為這個量基本上是比很多的目前的掩埋廠到大上很多那第二個呢運用非洲豬瘟呢因為各位國人很關心的目前呢這個我們現在先以這個廚餘的應變清理順暢為最主要的目標來宣"},{"start":2052.522,"end":2069.132,"text":"鼓勵我們的國人能夠源頭減量特別是說如何要利水的部分我們過去一年平均是2100噸一天有2100噸這疫情期間大概降到1700多萬噸等於是說1700多噸所以效果是非常的好那另外一個是目前各個縣市的廚餘的"},{"start":2073.784,"end":2090.405,"text":"除以這個量能的處理目前來看的話我們目前大概48%是來做焚燒但是我們也經過我們的專家去做詢問了也評估會議大概有10%以下的"},{"start":2091.386,"end":2106.742,"text":"一般焚化爐它的量能如果是10%以下燒這個廚餘是沒有問題的但是我們會加強這個代澳新的這個衝擊還有實際上的一個操作那目前整個量能我們希望能夠盡快可以趕快起來的確現在大概還有一點點落差"},{"start":2107.242,"end":2135.632,"text":"那目前呢本部呢也派員去參與日本的廚餘的考察日本呢當然這個是我們可以參考的目標包含了他的家戶小吃呢他主要是以焚化為主然後他也會有生殖能跟肥料那其他的部分呢如果團散跟餐廳他的確是可以飼料化鍋肥料化的方式來進行這個都是我們現在在參考的我們期待呢這個這個禮拜政府跨部會的協調包含行政院來協調我們應該會對外界有一個正式的一個一個做法會出來"},{"start":2136.172,"end":2151.027,"text":"要不要落日或是說要不要禁這個因為這個涉及到很多的部會很多的單位還甚至廚餘的去化這不是一個單一部會可以解決的問題目前來說的話我們希望這個禮拜可以有更好的一個解決再進行對外宣布那其他的部分呢包含了這個"},{"start":2152.498,"end":2174,"text":"資源循環的轉型目前我們現在有兩個一個上次我報告過的稀有貴金屬留置國內塑造綠色台灣的品牌然後我們目前的這個法的部分還有環保技術研發都在進行當中而且我們現在有一個產業在推動那關於法的這個部分目前行政院正在審定當中我們希望最快的時間趕快送到大院來"},{"start":2174.6,"end":2189.987,"text":"我們最主要的是資源循環推動法是希望最大化的循環然後廢棄物心理法目標就是最小化的這個廢棄這個包含大家最關心的廢棄物的處理這個都在這個裡面我們希望能夠嚴懲不罰甚至從源頭的一個管理來做這些事情"},{"start":2190.487,"end":2211.022,"text":"那第二個是氣候變遷的這個NDC 3.0我們過去這一年多最大的努力就是把新的NDC往上提升因為過去是24加減1現在是28加減2而且我們現在目前這個目標還是僅次於日本雖然韓國也最近提出來了看起來很像比我們野心強一點但是韓國他的過去的"},{"start":2212.443,"end":2232.966,"text":"碳排還是持續在成長當中的我們目前過去這三年我們的減碳已經到了2024年去年的最新的數據是減量了6.7跟2005年相比所以我們按照這個速度今年2025的減碳目標我們預估會有9%到10%左右所以目前我們還是朝向減碳的一個目標其實在前進"},{"start":2233.667,"end":2249.634,"text":"那我们的这个很努力的在进行跨部会的调升这个气候的韧性包含了说我们对于热浪其实我们今年推动的热浪的这个影响那未来呢我们会推动更多的一个项目我们希望以科学治理在地行动还包含了教育跟青年一起来推动"},{"start":2250.214,"end":2277.701,"text":"那此外我們本部也協助政府機關有一個永續長聯盟所以我們現在正在積極的推動綠色採購那個綠色採購到去年為底為止公部門跟民間部門大概總共是891億台幣左右我們現在訂了一些指標在推動我們希望2030年可以到達10%也就是說到1650億當然這個因為公部門的預算有限的可是民間部門的採購是很大的"},{"start":2278.041,"end":2297.04,"text":"所以我們現在也在擴大綠色產品的認定我們希望透過政府來帶頭加上民間可以把這個我們的綠色的商品能夠帶動起來這個包含了國發會 國工程會還有金管會也一起在合作那本部也積極的透過公私協議的辦法來推動這個政府的永續政府的領航"},{"start":2297.68,"end":2318.522,"text":"除了这个政府的永续长联盟之外还包含了绿色成长联盟这个是台湾大的排探员一起去进行碳交易还有抗高温的对策因应高温的调试还有资源循环的联盟还有建立绿生活的大联盟一起来推动这个事情那此外呢本部呢也对于这个绿领人才我记得我们去年在这个时候在立法院的时候很多委员问我们说"},{"start":2319.022,"end":2341.863,"text":"很多民間的一個人課要30萬其實很多詐騙的行為目前這個大概都已經消失殆盡了我們本部積極的來推動綠領人才而且不是本部做 跟32所大學合作目前在初步上已經得到一個績效現在大概已經有2000多人受到訓練未來我們會以一年3500人作為一個目標另外一個空品的部分"},{"start":2342.523,"end":2368.016,"text":"我們今年特別推動了跨部會啟動校園空瓶的4層的一個防護網針對這個靠近工業區的學校然後它等於是常常會被告發的等等的我們會工業區的學校附近的總體檢還有第二個我們鼓勵各個縣市來推動校園的空瓶維護區然後讓污染的交通不要進去那第三個就是針對校園的污染的通報能夠特別給它加強"},{"start":2368.776,"end":2392.909,"text":"還有一個就是校園空品的一個管理那目前我們本部跟衛福部也啟動了一個雙次長的會議的平台也就是我們共同來召集來討論健康跟空氣的相關的研討會所以各位熟悉的空品或空污的專家都在這個裡面特別是很多重量級的學者我們希望找出來說到底我們的台灣的為什麼我們的肺癌率有全球八十幾個國家"},{"start":2394.589,"end":2417.758,"text":"這個致死率都是第一名我們台灣也是其中之一我們有沒有辦法找出來有一些除了空污之外有沒有一些生活上還有很多原因我們努力希望能夠從專家的角度科學精準的來做治療這個部分我們會跟衛福部會持續的來合作那在水的部分我們有一個透明淡水的計畫在這個禮拜會開始展開我們就希望透過流域透明的治理"},{"start":2418.138,"end":2436.978,"text":"的示範來推動希望來精準推出各類的污染的防治讓水質更可以穩定而且我們希望這個資訊可以公開讓民眾可以來參與我們初期會以淡水河作為一個目標來推動因為這個淡水河過去累積起來花了幾千億來整治那它當然有一定的成效但是還可以做得更好"},{"start":2437.838,"end":2460.6,"text":"此外我們對於檢警環的檢調的環保犯罪是毫不鬆手的像前幾天發生的越視界的影響對我來說破壞環境就是一種罪不分藍綠白只要有犯罪我們就移送法辦所以目前過去這一年多我們的犯罪所得大概總共有41億元掌握了很多人但是土石方的廢棄的問題"},{"start":2461.701,"end":2483.443,"text":"還是要妥善的解決因為這個如果沒有量能可以找到去化的話還是會偷到所以我們跟跨部會也積極的拓增去化的量能統一管理的強度而且智慧圍籬這個都在今年的預算還希望大院可以給我們支持智慧圍籬的這個計畫那修法的作業我們也在持續的進行當中此外呢因為我們國人呢對於這種所謂的"},{"start":2485.084,"end":2510.9,"text":"臭味特別是養豬養牛的臭味是影響很大所以本部呢在今年呢跟嘉義大學跟平哥大合作因為這兩個大學都是我們的農業的這個重點的一個學校我們在那個地方會跟他們合作希望能夠拼出這種所謂的生殖零廢棄物的處理的體系讓那個地方有一個帶頭的作用真的把它推動起來此外呢本部將會和那個運動部合作來推動運動永續因為這個運動呢是國人很喜歡的這個"},{"start":2514.762,"end":2542.425,"text":"各種的這個活動那如果運動的當中可以把永續把它帶進去其實對我們來說都是一個很有效的做法我們過去已經跟職棒聯盟一起合作了職棒球團合作了但是我們未來希望跟運動部擴展到各式各樣的活動此外呢本部也跟這個德國有一個密切的合作包含碳定價的基礎設施今年已經開始簽訂了我們希望現在今年開始碳費明年開始收明年下半年我們就有一個這個碳交易的平台的這個試營運"},{"start":2543.766,"end":2560.861,"text":"能夠來進行甚至呢綠色科技的報告我們也會跟德國密切的合作那跟巴拉圭的合作呢就是我前幾天在巴拉圭跟他們密切談到很多的地方總共有12項因為這個巴拉圭呢他本身的土地非常大他就我們簡單來說的話是一個很有效的一個做法"},{"start":2561.241,"end":2585.903,"text":"当然我必须说还是以台湾的减碳为优先但是有一些的国际上我们大型的企业如果需要国际的碳权的部分它可以透过巴拉圭台巴的合作我们不希望台湾有一些企业透过票率的手法来获得减碳而是有一个政府可以认可的可以合可的比较公平公正公开的方式来进行我们总共有12项的工作计划在明年会开始逐步的探讨当中"},{"start":2586.543,"end":2613.024,"text":"我們跟日本也有一些密切的合作就是包含了資源循環還有PFAS還有有機化學物的管理我們都積極在進行當中本部其實在今年終於在上個月獲得行政院的通過我們把過去三十幾年的監製師正式調整為環境資訊科技師原來的監測的工作會由大氣師來做一個整合的工作這樣的主要就是一個環境治理的AI化"},{"start":2613.484,"end":2630.411,"text":"那我們希望未來我們在本部的這個對內的行政行政效能的透明度可以提升另外一個對於對外回應的這個幅度可以更快這個就是本部最主要的目的這是我第一份報告那第二份報告要跟各位報告COVID-30的這個計畫"},{"start":2634.066,"end":2656.512,"text":"這個COP30前幾天有延了一天在巴西的貝倫舉行11月10號到21號召開那這個這次因為是NDC新一輪的NDC就是國家的簡單貢獻到2035的目標現在有120個國家都有提出了那目前這次的主要工作最主要的一個很大的標語就是全球工作"},{"start":2656.972,"end":2680.715,"text":"就是Global Mutual这个计划那这次这个会议大概跟往年相比小了一点点大概5万人左右因为那个交通不便然后旅馆又非常的贵那这次主要的结论其实我到早上都还一直在看他们的结论我觉得这次结论是比较松散一点点没有什么太大的让大家很惊讶的一个内容"},{"start":2681.135,"end":2700.175,"text":"例如说大家期待说森林的砍伐是不是可以更明确虽然巴西是一个雨林国家可是他对这样的一个部分并没有说的太多不过最重要的就是说因为巴黎气候协定10年来的如何去把这个速度把它落实可以把它明确化这个是他最主要的核心这里还是有很多的内容"},{"start":2700.835,"end":2725.166,"text":"例如说巴黎协定的6.2 6.4其实这个跟台湾未来都有关的这次都有一些持续上的进展那另外一个是巴黎协定的政策循环开始启动就是说2035年的减碳的量大概是多少全球都会来检视还有一个就是国际的合作因为这次其实很多谈到很多的调试调试其实的资金过去是一年要1200亿他们把它2035年要调高到"},{"start":2727.087,"end":2742.976,"text":"3000億 3000億其實這個量增加了很大可是這是許願池每個國家是不是有辦法拿那麼多錢到國際社會裡面來幫助其他的國家來做調適基金這個有待商榷那我國呢是很自主的務實的雖然我們不是UFCCC的會員國可是我們"},{"start":2743.516,"end":2765.835,"text":"自主的所有的做法都是跟联合国一样的一个标准我们呢提出了NDC 3.0而且我们也提出了两年期的透明度报告还有排放清测完全是跟国际接轨在做这个事情而且呢这次的会议呢我们国内的国人包含的NGO等等大概有百位的人参加大概参与了三十多场的这个周边的一个活动那我们除了这个之外"},{"start":2766.255,"end":2776.587,"text":"還有我們跟友邦的雙邊的對談友邦的外交的活動等等都持續在進行當中我們本部也持續的在進行"},{"start":2778.85,"end":2802.142,"text":"為了協助國人的這個能夠了解COVID本部呢在從去年開始就成立了COVID-30戰型中心很及時的讓我們國人縱使沒有去COVID也可以了解COVID的行為所以我們也設置了一個參與國際氣候行動的專區那我們這次呢提出的NDC 3.0最主要就是說我們剛剛講的減碳的目標其實目前呢因為我們提出這個減碳目標的時候也說到"},{"start":2805.207,"end":2828.055,"text":"國際很大的一個檢視那因為我們提出的這個NDC 3.0在網路上都有公佈總共有10個面向那大家都還目前我們收到的好評是非常的多那我也會主動這個寫信寄給這種相關的重要機構讓他們來能夠了解台灣雖然我們沒有辦法送到聯合國的公約裡面那目前我們國家的溫室氣體排放是持續的下降這裡面我們現在減了6.7%左右跟2005年相比"},{"start":2830.996,"end":2848.448,"text":"那我们我刚才说过2025年我们有机会是9%到10%这个呢如果有一个很大的变数就是再生能源的推量的速度如果再生能源如果太慢的话我个人是非常忧心因为这个会影响到我们减碳的一个幅度特别是电力排放系数能够是不是可以显度的一个降低"},{"start":2849.248,"end":2875.772,"text":"目前大家最關注的就是CCPI 看守德國這個評比目前因為這個評比我們過去它從2005年開始有這個評比下來我們台灣本來常常都是在末段班當中其實這個我們也瞭解的非常的多我在明天開始就瞭解很多不過這次有幾個數據包含了UAEP的排放差距的報告全球的排放還是持續在成長2.3可是我們台灣早就每年都在穩定的往下降"},{"start":2876.252,"end":2898.505,"text":"然後那個JRC的這個EDGAR的報告裡面台灣也是出現整量減量的方式而且在全球碳預算的這個國際的報告裡面台灣是35個經濟成長與碳排放脫鉤的國家之一所以我們會覺得這個報告它的評比結果其實無法反映這個真相那我自己因為過去常常參與在民間的時候就參與很多國際級的一個評審"},{"start":2900.406,"end":2916.893,"text":"我自己在2021年也曾經寫過一篇文章這個指出說這個評比不公正因為他在第一次我參加COVAX十幾年前我就有關注到他們的評比的方式很怪很不合理例如說各位可以看到這個這個是我看環境引用環境資訊他們整理的結果"},{"start":2917.333,"end":2939.788,"text":"你看我們亞洲日本韓國跟台灣這三個國家大概都是後段班那韓國呢其實他過去幾年那麼努力你看他還63名所以韓國的其實前幾年那個韓國的媒體對於他們這個評比在現場都引發很大的一個震端那他這裡面呢還有一些國家例如說他明明都在排放的很多沒有什麼簡單的機制可是他名次都在我們很前面"},{"start":2940.288,"end":2963.27,"text":"所以這個就其實出現了說這次的評比它到底是定性跟定量如何去計算是不是有一些問題所以我個人提出了五個評比方法論的正義它的目標設定我們台灣的它用這個人均的排放量來算是基本上對台灣是很不公平的第二個呢它忽略了實質減量的趨勢那第三個呢是評比評分機制的差異因為這裡面呢有很多主觀性的評比第四個呢是"},{"start":2964.091,"end":2983.121,"text":"我參與過國際的評比尤其是NDC要把它大家平在一起你一定要有一些複審的機制不是說一個人在台灣隨便找幾個人他說了算是要有一個複審的機制我在國際上評比不管評哪一個國家都是這樣那還有一個呢是國際間的共同質疑所以其實這個看守德國這個CCPI在國際上報導的評"},{"start":2984.702,"end":3002.662,"text":"這個量並沒有很多因為大家都知道它有它先進上的缺陷就是讓我們能夠鼓勵讓我們知道說我們還有進步的空間這個部分我們還是給予很大的肯定但是它的確有一些問題存在那我們未來呢我們不管是國際評比如何我們還是要往前走所以我們"},{"start":3003.503,"end":3029.717,"text":"有六大的創新的制度還有行動的計畫20項行動計畫還有配合的國家希望工程的這個策略我們能夠台灣未來可以綠色成長跟205年進行轉型目前呢今年的10月行政院已經全數核定我們在過去一年提出來各個部會的20項的檢探旗艦計畫這個都完全已經核定不過這個經費上呢我覺得還有還希望大院可以給我們很多的一個支持"},{"start":3030.157,"end":3057.996,"text":"那至於說跟巴拉圭的合作呢我們在10月的時候跟巴拉圭有簽訂一個在巴黎協定下的合作的備忘錄這個就是因為在國際上在國際的探權大概可以有5%可以由境外來獲得但是我不是說又花了這個5%去國外買而是說台灣的減碳的各種的技術可以到巴拉圭能夠來合作甚至巴拉圭有可以我們可以透過巴拉圭這樣的關係可以獲得台灣在減碳的部分的更大的一個成效"},{"start":3058.416,"end":3079.687,"text":"所以目前我在前幾天也在巴拉圭跟他們部長有三天的時間有密切的談包含了這個氣候治理循環經濟跟環境治理我們都開始建立這個環境的工作群組我們也會盤點未來我們會跟巴拉圭展開密切的交流一個合作那其他的部分我們本部也會強化氣候邊線的調適包含了未來的調適的這個新一輪的調適行動計畫從明年116年開始展開"},{"start":3084.91,"end":3112.263,"text":"這個部分我們會來預作準備也期待能夠在調試的部分因為減碳的部分因為按照目前這次COPE的這個機會的話我們2011年溫度會從現在的已經升為1.5可能會到2.5到2.8所以我們現在的減碳的這個雖然是很努力在減可是全球並沒有在這個趨勢上面所以我們的調試面對這個未來越熱的一個環境我們勢必要多做一些準備所以最後這次我們這個"},{"start":3114.359,"end":3143.224,"text":"COP30大會公布的備輪的政治套案跟全球共作其實跟我們的氣候治理我們的過去做的事情是一致的甚至我們提出我們的減碳目標都是經過大概4000多人次的一個公聽來完成所以我們會持續的來進行那未來面對氣候變遷還是要以科學為基礎然後要全球的共同行動那我們雖然提出NDCC 3.0這是一個未來的規劃如何落地落實這個就是我們很重要的目標我們本部會積極的率同各個部會一起來推動這個事情"},{"start":3143.644,"end":3170.312,"text":"以上所有報告 謝謝好 謝謝部長部長10分鐘我給你23分鐘但是很認真啦 也很積極相關的因應速度都很快我相信各位拜託這個部長 聆聽部長的報告不管是這個業務報告還是專題報告都非常的詳細加油啦 謝謝部長那接下來"},{"start":3172.233,"end":3197.535,"text":"本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始做詢打做一下宣告本會委員詢打時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於3月前提出預期不受理那暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理歷史提案10點半截止收案那現在請第一位委員陳昭芝來發言"},{"start":3202.024,"end":3222.12,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長請部長這位好剛剛您確實是清楚掌握報告快速謝謝部長那部長環境部去年8月的時候有討論這個國家環境保護計畫修正草案當時有一些環團他們批評的是說你移除了這個自然保育章節"},{"start":3223.342,"end":3237.602,"text":"包括這個山災的這個山區的治山防災管理還有陸域的 陸域生態保育還有海洋保育等等那我請問部長這個環團在存勤之後是否環境部有將這些項目再移回新計畫中呢"},{"start":3238.79,"end":3259.484,"text":"有的 這個我們其實這次很多人有肯定因為原來這個是最早寫是以環織布當年的環織布的架構可是後來變成環境布所以這些有一回在這個草案中我們師長要不要再說明一下沒關係 我們其實是清楚我要講的就是說其實後來協調會也做了一些說明其實環境布有做的是要讓大家知道"},{"start":3260.124,"end":3287.577,"text":"其實這是我們肯定有作效讓大家知道那因為外界不知情他們也不知道去哪裡查這個資料所以我下來就是要跟部長建議本席認為涉及凡是認為涉及國家整體發展計畫的部分都可以參考部長可以參考國土計畫專案中公開資訊的他的一個做法像是這個國土署還會在官方網站網站上設立這個計畫專區然後清楚告訴國人說這一次他們整個研議的時間有多久那分別召開了幾次這個諮詢會議"},{"start":3289.338,"end":3303.094,"text":"然後有多少次的部會的協商那也跟大家說明說大概召開了幾次說明會議說明會那並且他在最後每一次會議上面會附上當年出席的人那個會議的簡報還有這個會議紀錄等等這個做法就是請這個部長來參考"},{"start":3308.32,"end":3322.433,"text":"就是有做的事就因為現在的趨勢就是這樣部會在做很多事就像國人有個清楚他可以查閱查詢的地方那請問部長為了環境部這個有關國家環境保護計畫是否可以比照剛剛我談的這個模式呢因為目前你們還沒有做"},{"start":3323.324,"end":3342.381,"text":"這個我們會來研究一下收集一下因為我們很多會議都已經比照做得比他還公開了環保團隊剛剛我提到的那個地方沒有加入他們還是非常關心那是不是可以知道大概多久可以上架這個計畫專案讓大家了解整個進度我們一個月內完成可以照委員的建議"},{"start":3346.184,"end":3372.728,"text":"部長113年公開的國家環境保護計畫修正草案版本當中第六章大規環境有提到就是達到了這個所謂的全國空氣品質就是AQI降低了這個紅色警示的次數那另外一面就說也提到說PM2.5的改善成果是有效的但是我想請教部長空氣品質的管理目標現在指定在PM2.5這樣就夠了嗎 就可行嗎就是說"},{"start":3374.215,"end":3401.497,"text":"其實這件事 這個議題我在6月底有質詢過環境部但是那次您不在場是省次長在場就是空污跟罹患失智症的關聯性所以今天我想要再跟部長再談一次在6月24號的記者會上有一屆一屆代表跟環團召開記者會他們引用的是國際醫學期刊叫Lancet 叫士科博這個是大概排名前幾名的國際醫學期刊他們當中有指出空氣污染被確認為全球失智"},{"start":3402.418,"end":3421.073,"text":"的危險因子之一他們指出跟交通工具排放的廢棄有關的PM0.1的關聯性那沈次長當時也提到世界衛生組織在2021年的時候他的全球空氣品質指引他針對這個主要的空氣溫暖對人類健康影響部分他第一次提到了這個"},{"start":3422.074,"end":3435.955,"text":"就是超細 因為更細了叫PM0.1他會增加全身的發炎呼吸道疾病還有這個心臟血管等等的風險所以我想要請問彭部長你認為國家環境計畫現在只把PM2.5放在KPI裡面這樣夠嗎"},{"start":3438.3,"end":3458.872,"text":"謝謝委員的建議這個當然是不夠啦但是這個PM0.1它是屬於一個新型態的那我前幾個月有遇到美國的EPA的專家也在討論這個問題那他們也在嘗試很多歐洲的國家在設那也跟委員報告我們明年會設三個站那我們先來量量那個到底我們北中南各設一個站"},{"start":3459.352,"end":3474.228,"text":"部長我瞭解你有開始要注意到你剛剛報告總共我算過你至少講了三次科學那我就跟你談科學PM2.5已經很小了可是PM2.5會進入它吸入以後會進入我們全身循環全身都會受到影響但是PM0.1是25倍小啊"},{"start":3475.288,"end":3489.218,"text":"那它是更細啊那你知道我們血液跟大腦有個屏障叫做血腦屏障就是它會透過這個血腦屏障穿過去因為它太小了它會進到我們的大腦那大腦以後它又會碰到那個我們很重要的記憶跟認知的部分叫海馬回"},{"start":3490.098,"end":3498.784,"text":"那這個還蠻會破壞它的構造跟它的功能所以它會造成這個退化性的神經症還有很重要就是失智症那我要談的科學是這樣子這個台灣婦產科醫學秘書長他也引用了這個環境流行病學查治2025年最新發表論文的論文"},{"start":3509.251,"end":3536.005,"text":"蘇格蘭在1936年出生 572位長者他為研究對象 他發現七八十歲罹患失智症可以溯及母體胎兒的時候跟他這個幼兒期的空氣污染的這個因素很重要當然對於他們往後一生他們曝露的這個量也是有關所以失智的風險是跟這個PM0.1是關聯這個是有科學報告的所以在這個情況下所以剛剛你也提到你有開始考慮要把"},{"start":3536.985,"end":3561.541,"text":"PM0.1那到未來把關全國的空氣品質的一個指標是這樣嗎是這個也包圍因為我們在跟那個全球的包圍歐洲或是美國的專家在討論的時候他對於方法學0.1的方法學跟2.5是不一樣的所以我們現在明年會先設三個站北中南會先設一個站我們來真的來量看看然後來定出我們的國家的目標再出來逐步來定出來"},{"start":3561.801,"end":3582.218,"text":"那個10月底國家氣候變遷這個對策委員會有表示未來要加鹽加鹽 交通燃油成分的標準來降低這個就是力狀污染物的這個問題那過去政府已經針對這個重型客車重型貨車還有輕型貨車大概已經就做了要求那請問部長你對於新車呢新車這個力狀污染物質的做法你有沒有打算也要納入裡面預計什麼時候會上路"},{"start":3584.519,"end":3612.218,"text":"其實這個部分還在研議當中我們希望明年可以來就是這個明年可以來討論這個事情那您剛剛已經談到因為要監測嘛你要照片就要監測那你剛剛說是全國先三個三個當然是很不夠的不過就是說那你既然已經開始了那就是希望說能夠繼續因為這個科學證據是蠻多的部長還有一件事我今天一定要講上週五晚上台南烏樹林海軍的營區因為台南市環保局堆放大量的災後廢棄物"},{"start":3613.118,"end":3621.547,"text":"起火燃燒了我都不知道到現在為止到底這個火熄滅了沒有坦白說我一點都不意外但是我對行政機關毫無警示性這個感到生氣為什麼會生氣呢在10月7號的時候當地的農民跟前立委這個陳焦華有一起我們一起召開記者會"},{"start":3629.555,"end":3649.209,"text":"當天要求環境部跟台南市環保局都要出席可是台南市環保局缺席了可是農民對於廢棄物的堆置可能引起燃燒的憂慮我當時有要求環境部轉達台南市環保局後來第二次我在10月28號又召開了一次協調會也再度對環境部示警"},{"start":3649.969,"end":3676.229,"text":"但沒有人在意啊結果呢就出現了上禮拜五的這個火災啊起火燃燒啊我真的覺得這個有些官員對立委的協調會召開會那個聽聽就好就是根本不當一回事那這兩次會議我都清楚的告訴環境部那邊真的不適合堆放大量的易燃物的廢棄物不知道你知道為什麼嗎這是農民告訴我的你知道為什麼嗎他那個地方不適合放這個大量的易燃的廢棄物對"},{"start":3679.099,"end":3695.039,"text":"因為是當地的居民告訴我的那些廢棄物木頭如果放得非常高 現在可能燒光了我不知道 很多次就燒光了跟我以前在談的那個防爆管器配件也是這樣它這個堆得很高 緊鄰圍牆所以外面的人很容易碰到它隨便丟一個煙蒂就燒起來了耶"},{"start":3697.802,"end":3723.539,"text":"所以這個政府機關我當時就告訴他們但他不聽也聽不進去那如果當地居民當然生氣啊當然會生氣啊所以我想請問部長一句話民間隨意焚燒廢棄物都會引起空污的話都會開罰那請問台南市環保局他這次這個臨時廢棄物的堆置場起火燃燒而且很嚴重聽說會燒很多天而且嚴重的空氣污染請問台南市環保局要不要對自己開罰"},{"start":3724.76,"end":3749.546,"text":"這件事要不要人負責 要不要人受到處罰我今天希望部長給我一個明確的答案這個開罰是他們要自己罰自己他會嗎 他會這樣做嗎 有人這樣做嗎他們應該會這樣做 然後那也包圍啊可是你是主管機關啊他們裁罰是屬於地方啦那我們會要求他們說盡量因為那天其實發生的時候我在國外我們的同仁有近視去處理 那我昨天"},{"start":3750.246,"end":3764.582,"text":"前兩天知道的情況下已經那個已經熄了但是還是有一些魚煙那也跟委員報告因為從7月開始喔那個台南的那個露宿倒塌了幾萬顆啦所以他們現在焚化爐的量還不夠對就是木頭嘛然後易燃物他們都會燒嘛"},{"start":3765.683,"end":3787.175,"text":"但是但是我也提示我10月7號跟10月18號三個週然後也不過在一個年他就就產生了已經告訴環境部環境部聽耳不聞啊 聰耳不聞啊我們請他回去去督促台南市環保局啊我等一下我最在意的是他們不聽啊這麼清楚的這個點啊他們沒有不聽根本不在意啊然後燃燒了所以你說他們會開罰自己嗎真的嗎我要看開罰單"},{"start":3788.155,"end":3804.271,"text":"台南市環保局會開罰自己嗎這個按照我們過去的經歷是有這樣的例子那誰負責 誰會負責他們要自己去那我要看到那個開罰單可以嗎這是市政府的一個層級啦環境部可以要得到 我像你要啊我不能看嗎我們明明就提出警示開了兩次我花時間開記者會協調會結果就讓它發生了"},{"start":3807.894,"end":3823.023,"text":"不過我也跟委員報告因為其實這個台南市的量能它焚化爐新的一個還在蓋明年可以起來部長你請別說這是理由本來行政官員就是要做我們就是要做監督而且提醒了還帶著當地居民提醒了結果事情還是讓它發生這麼清楚的時間序他們大概都有記錄因為他們到立法院來開會都有時間序"},{"start":3829.506,"end":3845.78,"text":"所以我要看到您開發你剛剛講說藍綠白一樣不管顏色誰犯誰犯規誰都要處罰你剛剛講得很清楚別的事情那這件事我什麼時候可以看到開發單已經都發生火災了還沒有人要追究責任嗎"},{"start":3846.3,"end":3873.009,"text":"是 包委員那個如果有造成空氣污染已經造成空氣污染啦現在就是那個移空法來看還是要看它發生的原因啦他們調查發生的原因之後不是 原因就燒起來啦他管的地區啊原因他們調查完之後部長這樣不行你現在給他糊弄我跟你說我真的我也很尊重你剛剛對很多資料的這個掌握清楚但是這件事該做就要做我要看到開罰單"},{"start":3874.309,"end":3877.033,"text":"可以嗎我們要知道政府做錯事要對人民負責民間做錯事要政府做事也要對人民負責也要有責任歸屬尤其我提醒了在10月提醒兩次因為我去看過那實在太大了"},{"start":3890.31,"end":3909.962,"text":"那個大到整個台南倒掉的樹放阿固 你怕人家都不講 現在發生火災你就要推不行啦其實那個兩三個月我們要看開罰單 謝謝部長我們要看開罰單罰自己 自己做錯誰負責部長 我要看到開罰單 可以嗎你答應我了嗎我來瞭解一下 看怎麼去處理我要看到開罰單 好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 接下來請林月琴委員來做選擇"},{"start":3926.176,"end":3928.998,"text":"主席有請彭部長部長早上周宜蘭縣議會質詢縣府的時候指出近幾年環境稽查的次數砍半今年又突然激增"},{"start":3948.727,"end":3977.418,"text":"但平均罰還金額連年偏低醫院認為是縣府沒有認真查違規者根本罰不怕就敢亂盜才會讓環境蟑螂集團在宜蘭亂盜廢棄物我今天會在這裡問你是因為宜蘭的環保局回應媒體說主要是整體的執法模式是因中央的法令調整而改變還點名是空污法影響最大"},{"start":3978.158,"end":3986.444,"text":"你主責中央的環保的法令現在地方點名是中央修法造成請問部長你的回應是什麼好"},{"start":3994.01,"end":4016.469,"text":"他最主要是针对车辆的排气检验的部分因为空服法在修法的时候把原来使用中的三个字删除所以他的开法简单字上是法软偏低是因为你们的法规改变吗或是什么吗为什么他讲说是因为你空服法影响到他的论述可能有点问题所以你要不要澄清一下呢"},{"start":4017.304,"end":4043.489,"text":"好 我們來澄清因為它最主要是罰如果是你的那個沒有訂檢的話第一次就罰500元所以這個不需要所謂的稽查不用再去查它使用中因為它等於沒有被我們車牌辨識查到以後就直接罰500元對 所以我覺得你們要掌握評估不過地方政府裁罰的那個奏檢的時候和空法的法令調整之間的關聯是什麼"},{"start":4044.045,"end":4055.056,"text":"否則地方這樣講然後民眾也誤以為是這樣我覺得會有一些因為過去宜蘭從過去的陳定南現場就立下了環境治理的優良傳統先從議員的資料看"},{"start":4057.94,"end":4081.569,"text":"這牽扯廢棄物管理跟各種污染所以要請部長把情況弄清楚然後宜蘭是個案還是通案否則的話如果哪一個地方又這樣子講的話到底是什麼實際狀況如何所以再向我們辦公室來做說明再麻煩環境部這邊那部長我是一個長期關注社福跟兒少的立委所以這一年多來"},{"start":4082.293,"end":4111.325,"text":"只要環境部來為環委員會我幾乎都會再問社福族群跟兒少的環境跟氣候調適的議題從上一個會期一開始我就要求環境部用兒權公約來檢視你們的政策也要求在氣候調適的工作裡要從兒少跟社福的角度切入包括抗高溫的策略要多元的併進還要找更多部會來做合作才能對準兒少跟社福弱勢族群"},{"start":4113.165,"end":4134.652,"text":"更重要的是要有兒少實質的參與然後我也找到額蒙的資料請你們在辦法跟法規上參照並修正確保這些弱勢族群在氣候調適當中不會被遺漏的確我覺得部長大概你們也做了尤其事實上是兒少空屋的議題上你們也有給我明確的回應"},{"start":4135.572,"end":4159.933,"text":"那長者的這部分的獨居長者你們在台南也有事辦計畫這是好的可是說了這麼多上週氣候變遷署署長就是蔡玲署長面對民間團體到環境部去陳情兒少跟氣候調適的議題的時候只是說明說相關規劃跟思考必須因地制宜需要先跟部會盤點有哪些措施接下來再"},{"start":4160.914,"end":4170.354,"text":"找地方政府來談所以我想問 我問了一整年都已經到年底了而照的氣候調適措施還在盤點嗎"},{"start":4173.827,"end":4202.043,"text":"謝謝委員因為他當天談的是那個兒童的我的遊戲場那時候我在民間2016年就一直在琢磨著因為在美國ASTM他們在2011年就已經有一些標準在弄那台灣一直跟不上可是我的意思說那你們在跟部會還在盤點嗎團體跟民眾會不會覺得環境部對這一題完全狀況外好像是第一次聽到這個題目部長你要不要說明一下"},{"start":4203.884,"end":4224.639,"text":"跟委員說明其實我們已經在11月跟部會已經把就是高溫尤其是在健康議題那需要採取中程跟短期的措施先列出來那現在最主要的問題是在於說必須要有優先順序那所以我們署長這個大概不是只有健康權而已為什麼我今天這樣提"},{"start":4225.279,"end":4248.188,"text":"的確熱浪來潮的時候如果因為氣候對老人跟兒童就嬰兒是嚴重比較影響可是如果社福議題的話可能會牽扯到身障和安置機構弱勢家庭也就是貧窮家庭跟無家者這個都是我在質詢的時候都有提過的而且如果參照兒童權利公約為基礎的話"},{"start":4249.671,"end":4273.35,"text":"從社福到兒少族群的一些設定那一路我講到歐盟的做法都講了快一年了部長我想你很了解兒權公約跟26號意見書他在講的兒少的氣候權這一塊那我也想問說司署長都很熟嗎對兒權公約我說你們部內上次替官員辦兒權公約的賠利課程是什麼時候啊"},{"start":4277.754,"end":4299.338,"text":"因為各部會事上都要上課公務體系的人都要上課所有只要牽扯到有跟兒少有關係氣候權也是跟兒少有關係不知道有沒有上課我們有辦每年都會辦理然後是跟所有的人權都那包含主管嗎否則制定政策相關規劃的還是主管嗎"},{"start":4300.737,"end":4326.586,"text":"所以這是不是可以再麻煩能夠跟上 謝謝委員的建議這個我們會來做 事實上我們對於這個本來我們今年想要說年底有一個氣候變遷希望有一個兒少的這種氣候變遷大會來辦但是因為這個我們遇到災害很多啦所以就一直 我知道你們這陣子大家也很忙可是我就講了一年兒少的這些相關議題是不是可以放進去而且尤其是我關心的社福所以部長"},{"start":4327.606,"end":4349.556,"text":"Cops30就是30已經落幕了德國看守協會剛有報告指出台灣成績非常差部長回應是我國仍然有進步的空間我相信環境部一定會從各方面去做檢討也會說明這個報告中指數本身的限制我想等下很多委員會問可是我比較關心的是接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":4350.596,"end":4369.075,"text":"現行的國家氣候變遷調適行動方案112年到115年那明年就要結束了那照現在核定本的話國家氣候調適投入了數千億元計劃內兒少跟社福族群幾乎完全沒被看見"},{"start":4369.956,"end":4384.588,"text":"只在延伸紙計畫內而且只用健康權的角度帶過文字只出現在第一頁我剛剛講不是只有健康權後面沒有細緻的討論實際執行方案也就是每一年都會做的公財補助的無家者的"},{"start":4385.208,"end":4411.133,"text":"寒冬送暖部长从整体的人权观点来看儿少跟社福族群他们本来在这个气候变迁就会是一个弱势如果你只有从健康权够吗只剩下物资发放吗因为如果只有那个无家者的寒冬送暖那真的就只有物资发放他的生存权发展权跟参与权还有甚至游戏场的休闲游戏权"},{"start":4412.974,"end":4437.075,"text":"所以部長請你可不可以說明一下包委你這邊列的這個方案是衛福部那邊的那我們現在其實當然這個調試是環境部來主管的我們會其實我看到那個報告厚厚一本感覺錢很多但是他的整個計畫的目的跟國際上的調試以我的瞭解的確是跟國際上有落差所以我們其實真的我有跟我同仁在討論說如何把這個調試真的去"},{"start":4437.595,"end":4466.475,"text":"符合國際有沒有一個找一個好的一個做法能夠符合委員的期待來做但是目前這個所謂的兒少或是弱勢的部分的確我們我必須坦承說我們做的不多各個部會跨部會做的很不夠因為我覺得如果你說今天講衛福部國健所好了他們對健康可是重點是對於氣候的這一塊事實上還是掌握度比較高如果要對應說請衛福部去提出來一些東西他大概提不出來那甚至"},{"start":4466.895,"end":4477.841,"text":"今天我提的社福的安置機構甚至事實上是無家者甚至貧窮家庭他們越吹可能越熱越熱又要越吹的話事實上越貧窮這個課題之前都已經講過了所以"},{"start":4482.283,"end":4505.637,"text":"希望就是說部長這邊可能要先你出來你們自己對氣候的了解之後再去對應我們的衛福部所以我在民間的時候就一直講因為我剛剛講美國ASTM在2011年的時候就已經有對應的一些策略說那個遊戲場的高溫的一些對應策略那考量到今年夏天還有各種的天災你要救災優先"},{"start":4506.517,"end":4522.205,"text":"我沒有一直強求馬上要做可是現在看到是沒有上位的計畫的話各單位互踢皮球而是要跟社福族群的一些氣候調適發遊戲場在內因為我們現在燙傷的比例越來越高所以美國為什麼他們在"},{"start":4522.905,"end":4545.838,"text":"ASTM的準則裡邊事實上加裝了一些要件可是台灣現在這邊遊戲廠事實上是沒有跟上的所以如果你們只能一直在盤點的話我們就擔心新一期的行動方案一定要補這個結構性的缺口所以我要求環境部在新的方案當中是不是可以連結其他的部會用明確的章節把兒少跟社福族群"},{"start":4546.298,"end":4574.917,"text":"列為需要特殊對策的一個氣候脆弱族群重點是要有專款有清晰的分析行動計畫跟管考部長能不能做到委員這個其實我們有在討論這個事情包含了說我要說一個兒少的氣候變遷的會議就是把你說的要把它放進去那我也認同委員說是不是有一個專章來討論這個事情因為這個角度切法是不一樣的那我也覺得從未來從世代正義的角度委員你這樣的看法是對的我們可以"},{"start":4575.297,"end":4595.229,"text":"對 他們說環境就是他們的生命所以應該也要讓他們來參與也要把他們列入在你的所以想問116年期的新一期的行動方案是否已經啟動擬定如果已經啟動擬定的話預計的一個啟動跟完成時程那你們什麼時候可以給我把這些我剛剛講的兒少跟社福納進去規劃"},{"start":4597.57,"end":4620.324,"text":"報告委員 這明年我們就會來開始做明年115年就要準備116年的新的計畫所以明年我們就會嘗試一些兒少的相關的一個討論然後把這個宗旨這個利害關係的人都把它找到我相信部長你的行動力非常強希望要記得兒少跟社福 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝委員接下來請陳慶威委員來做懸答"},{"start":4633.531,"end":4656.222,"text":"謝謝主席我想請部長來請部長陳委員好部長好最近應該您也有看到因為我看到你有對新聞進行一些回應也就是我們現在被這個氣候變遷績效指標CPI評為非常低的一個等級不好意思幫我按一下下一張"},{"start":4657.577,"end":4671.023,"text":"那我們在這個排名是第59啦那我知道您對他有一些疑慮因為你對評分標準你可不可以簡短的講一下你認為他的評比為什麼對台灣不太公平"},{"start":4672.761,"end":4701.206,"text":"第一個是說它對於這個每個國家的人均的排碳比的目標台灣很嚴格所以我們其實它把我們跟韓國跟日本都打得特別低可是你看到像印度或是根本沒有在減碳的國家都在我們前面它的容許值就比較很高這第一個第二個是像這個如果要平這些東西你的排碳量一直持續的增加我們持續往下減可是在它的這個指標分數裡面完全表現不出來"},{"start":4702.046,"end":4727.835,"text":"最重要的是說因為我參加過國際這種評審他等於是把每一個人的成績單這不是考試喔是因為每一個人的考試是很單一的可是這個NDC是很複雜的如果可以很NDC排名排出來的話全世界無法排名的所以他把這個很定性的把它變成定量化其實這個都需要評審委員還有一個副審的機制因為我參與過國際的副審類似的工作我做過所以我認為他這樣做"},{"start":4729.355,"end":4737.001,"text":"他在臺灣只有找幾位NGO的人士來代表那我有點懷疑說他的副省的機制是不是那麼的完整報案下一張"},{"start":4738.397,"end":4762.678,"text":"當然之前我看2021年你們也曾經抗議過這件事但我覺得比較麻煩的是說很多國際組織所統計出來的報告對我們的評分其實我們的環境部從2021年然後至今像上次的這個IQ air等等公佈我們空污是全球第54名我們都會認為有爭議啦那我們認為有爭議也有我們的對於他的算法所不同的看法"},{"start":4764.219,"end":4789.813,"text":"那這邊的話我是想跟你具體的比較討論因為我看了整份環境部的報告那我發現說環境部的報告一直糾結在他的評分標準啊然後他的排名啊但是你卻沒有跟我們全國人民分析說其實他的報告後面有一整段的英文的建議所以我今天主要是想跟你討論一一的討論他英文的建議還有環境部在其中扮演的角色下一張"},{"start":4791.667,"end":4794.89,"text":"好我們看他一開始就在講說你剛提到的碳排我們從2005一直到2024其實是下降9.6%這也是你剛講的數據可是在CCPI他的認定10%是他的弱減量所以我們對於弱減量的目標都可能沒有辦法達成的話你有沒有什麼具體覺得你可以改進的地方"},{"start":4816.26,"end":4840.436,"text":"包委這個他們的建議也是國內的那三位的環團的專家寫提出的建議並不是CCPI他整體的建議這個就是他的問題他不是一個國際的專家一個統整的那個內容而是說每個在地的NGO被他那個國家自己打了一個分數這個就是他最大的問題但他裡面也有四個國際組織一起在評分其中也不乏你一直滿想加入的一些國際組織嘛"},{"start":4842.584,"end":4849.671,"text":"對所以你覺得這樣子9.6你很滿意了當然他的算法9.6要不要請我們署長來說明一下"},{"start":4851.195,"end":4874.861,"text":"跟委員報告他其實他的評比裡面他的數據的部分的話他的溫室氣體排放量他不是以我們的下降的趨勢他是設計的每一個國家他自己設了一個人均的排放量來作為評對他把我們台灣設成說我們到2030年的人均是2.26但是英國他又把他設成是4點多所以是"},{"start":4876.101,"end":4893.217,"text":"就是我們在跟CCPI在討論它不合理的地方你們有做一些回文嗎你們有做一些回覆嗎給CCPI嗎在過去幾年已經每一年你們都有回覆它好那我們下一張再來他這個也是給我們一個建議啦他的意思是說"},{"start":4894.218,"end":4922.177,"text":"我們由燃煤大幅的擴張LNG那他認為說我們在持續擴張LNG的使用削弱了整體的氣候的野心那他也說我們的政府是把天然氣包裝為乾淨的過度的燃料這個敘事具有誤導性所以在現行的政策中他認為我們是缺乏法律明定燃煤退場的時程也缺乏明確的化石燃料的減量的策略"},{"start":4924.358,"end":4951.303,"text":"可能沒有辦法具體的去參與這件事但是你有沒有考慮跟經濟部還有國發會一同來討論包委員這個German Watch它就是一個不大的NGO因為我十幾年前就有去跟他們argue他們評比每年都很奇怪我當面都有指責過你去上網查我以前有問他過例如說有一年英國全部啟動核能他把它變成第一名那我說是不是核能的因素我就直接問他他也答得很奇怪"},{"start":4951.604,"end":4960.424,"text":"那你覺得他給我們的建議是對的嗎因為他覺得我們沒有明定燃煤的退場時程這不是他的建議也缺乏化石的燃料減量的策略"},{"start":4961.082,"end":4980.83,"text":"他是針對他是這個那是三位本地的專家給的建議啦那基本上國際上對於這個LNG他的確還是一個過渡型的他相對的排汰量比較低然後他的這個比較乾淨一點點所以其實還是屬於一個過渡型的這個這個點是沒有錯但是他有他的看法可是他的意思是說我們沒有時程"},{"start":4981.67,"end":5003.555,"text":"我們沒有實成 具體的實成我們有實成我們到2030 2035甚至2050年那個能源配比都有一個目標所以你也沒有覺得他這樣子說我們過度包裝成乾淨的過度燃料你也覺得他這件事情講的不對其實他這個就是個人說的這個是expert某些專家說的就是國內那三位專家說的"},{"start":5004.383,"end":5022.804,"text":"好那我們下一張下一張的話前面你可能也必須要跟交通部去做一些溝通跟協調當然他對於我們全面的電動化運具公車啊汽機車等等好建物的碳中和執行的進度嚴重的落後並且除了主要都市以外呢公共運輸仍不發達這一點"},{"start":5025.347,"end":5052.942,"text":"我知道你也很努力你也很努力可是交通部也必須要跟上你的腳步那再來他就提到再生能源了他說再生能源很嚴重的是緩慢而且前後不一致我們本來2025年希望可以達到25%到目前只有達到15%他講出來他也我覺得他對我們的政府也有蠻深入的了解他覺得台灣其實舊根本是電網的基礎老舊整合能力不足所以限制了再生能源的發展再來土地的使用爭議還有生態衝擊"},{"start":5055.043,"end":5068.556,"text":"以及這些種種的貪瀆醜聞使得公共信任不足還有一些綠能廠商他退出台灣的時候也對國際媒體做一些投書這些他們都有去看所以這點你認為我們有改進的空間嗎這當然有改進的空間"},{"start":5071.418,"end":5087.093,"text":"過去我們的對於太陽光電不管是地方在蓋章的時候太多人可以蓋要蓋三十幾個章所以也給很多人上下其所的機會所以也造成一些弊案我們也看到了所以這個行政院也積極在處理這個事情那當然啦過去的光電的這個爭議或是風電的這個評估"},{"start":5090.616,"end":5116.263,"text":"這個大家都過去都有討論那我們也同意那我認為這個時候是一個重新建立一個信心的方式我們還是需要綠電因為這次的這個協定裡面還是呼應COVID-28的這個再生能源還是要成長的好那以上我總結因為你可能需要找國發會經濟部交通部內政部去做一個協調跟整合你認為你有辦法在三個月內做這件事情還是你覺得我們需要一起跟行政院院長做討論"},{"start":5118.344,"end":5136.183,"text":"報告委員你是針對CCPI給我們的建議我認為CCPI給我們的建議我們就看一看參考而已我們有自己的NDC的路徑聽到現在我覺得你對於他的再生能源你是願意採納的其他的你認為其實他的評比方法有失公允"},{"start":5137.205,"end":5150.886,"text":"有些他是我必须说就是有时候做事情的人跟倡议的人这是不一样的层次那我会参考他我们哪里做的不够会去看他但是他的是不是都对的有待讨论下一张"},{"start":5152.239,"end":5170.394,"text":"上個禮拜立法院有三讀通過嘛關於這個光電板環評地質法還有環評法觀光條例等等的那當然我們會這樣做是因為B案爆發的速度趕不上環境部修訂執法的速度啦那針對比如說山坡地"},{"start":5171.415,"end":5190.425,"text":"之前覺得太寬鬆或者是以前比較模糊地帶的水面型光電以及這個地質敏感區國家風景區等等一併納入環評的範圍所以我想先請教部長你對於整體修法的看法簡短說就可以了我是認可說能夠加嚴但是我比較遺憾的是說這個數字並沒有經過科學的討論或是公眾的參與決定這個多少MW要環評"},{"start":5196.721,"end":5212.767,"text":"好 那第二個問題 下一張第二個問題當然也是會有人民會有點擔心行政院跟環境部會不會對這次立法院的修法提出復議因為你剛有講你剛有講一些理由所以你覺得你會不會對這次的修法提出復議"},{"start":5214.08,"end":5235.456,"text":"這個部分我還要尊重行政院的最後的決定但是我覺得很可惜的是說因為黃國昌委員提那個案子的時候在大院質詢我的時候他覺得那個量可以來討論可是我們的所有的執法在規劃的空間的時候原來那個都在執法訂的那個執法其實可以有公聽的機會各界都可以來參與現在只有一方的能夠決定就決定了所以沒有公眾的參與"},{"start":5235.816,"end":5252.911,"text":"我剛剛大概有跟你講了一下因為這個執法從你們說要修一直到修修修修修拖了其實蠻久的然後你們沒有給出一個明確的時間那現在有一些人可能民團他也是出來講話他會怕說這個環評會塞車所以我也想在這邊幫他們問我想要在這邊幫他們問我想問你過去一年大概有幾個廣點的環評案你們有審你現在手上有數據嗎"},{"start":5262.66,"end":5286.059,"text":"光天有退回去幾個 但是也跟委員報告大概一年省幾個 這個是我們想知道的數據有些一定的量 因為之前是只有針對山坡地我們去年今年1月修改的那個之前是適用於別的主管 木地事業局管理局的規定例如說農業部還有水保署等等的相關的一個規定所以它都有它的一個規定不是不見得每一個都要送到環評"},{"start":5287.02,"end":5298.84,"text":"他不是說沒有環評我的意思是說你的量能因為有些人會怕你們的量能不足對於未來的環評量能不足所以想知道你過去大概一年是幾個案子未來會不會"},{"start":5300.373,"end":5322.406,"text":"目前只有三個啦但是未來如果按照委員這樣的話我們也擔心我們的同仁會爆糧因為三個大家對比看一些光電閉暗的新聞當然會覺得你一年才還平三個似乎也是顯得比較少嘛所以當然我們這邊是積極要幫你爭取喔我們是希望你未來就增加你的量能增加你的人手增加你的預算我們也希望你好好去做還平嘛"},{"start":5323.306,"end":5338.683,"text":"另外在政黨協商的時候次長曾經有說到說這個地質敏感脆弱區等等名詞沒有明確的定義這邊我也想請部長來說明一下針對次長的這個疑慮你覺得有沒有辦法利用韓式來做一個解決"},{"start":5341.651,"end":5349.979,"text":"跟委員報告因為那個地質敏感地區最後在立法院三讀的再修正的動議裡面其實已經有做一個比較明確的一個定義了因為本來是比較不明確那之後後來通過的這個法案裡面他其實是有很明確的依照地質法的規定是只有限定在地質遺跡地質敏感區跟山崩地滑的地質敏感區"},{"start":5364.912,"end":5379.553,"text":"所以這個應該在執行上就比較沒有問題因為我看到其他的部門農業部海委會他們也一樣也都可以針對地質敏感區有一些定義部長我看你咳嗽所以最後一個只要很簡短的回答我們就好了"},{"start":5380.554,"end":5409.634,"text":"這個母法呢因為技術問題所以我們那一天並沒有把這個國家公園列入可是接下來因為你們會依照三讀的結果來修執法可是執法你們原本裡面有這個國家公園的條款所以也有很多環團擔心法律真空的議題比如說你們在連帶修執法的時候會把國家公園相關的條款就誤刪了那變成三不管地帶可能會是個巨大的災難這點我也想請部長講一下有沒有可能會有這樣子的事情發生"},{"start":5410.575,"end":5430.735,"text":"不會啦 這個國家公園任何一個開發是嚴到不行的所以這個他們想太多了啦這個實質上實務不是這個樣子的對 所以它之後還會保留在你們的紙紡當中這個本來就在我們裡面都會有啦但是我們也跟委員報告因為那個討論這個到底光電環評等於是多少的量要多少我們現在變成全世界最嚴格的"},{"start":5431.693,"end":5449.232,"text":"其實我們是給你一個權利讓你去管轄因為之前你的權利偏少你這一整年來奔波你想想有多少都是因為環境的議題好 那我也希望我們未來可以合作祝你早日康復謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝接下來請王韻明委員發言"},{"start":5460.132,"end":5463.114,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請彭部長王委員好部長好 部長保重謝謝今天我要請教的是越世界這個怎麼變成垃圾山的這個議題我看到這一家這個祐宏公司事實上他是有合法去登記在案的一個公司"},{"start":5484.913,"end":5509.945,"text":"但是我看到整個過程他是不是用合法來掩護他的非法這個我覺得是環境部你們要非常注意的因為我去調出來之前這個地方政府裁罰他的紀錄事實上他過去違法的紀錄蠻多的甚至他有一塊空地他都在堆置這一些失業廢棄物或者是生活垃圾等等"},{"start":5510.865,"end":5533.243,"text":"但是這樣子的一個違法堆置其實地方政府通通都用42條來裁罰所以42條罰得很輕就是都不到三萬然後去上個課兩個小時為什麼違法堆置不是用比較重的這個廢清法46條而是用比較輕的42條"},{"start":5535.365,"end":5543.857,"text":"這是不是因為覺得他已經有合法登記了所以就重新處理這個事情你們有沒有去深入去探究"},{"start":5545.53,"end":5571.262,"text":"因為他是46條的第3款跟第10款的刑責其實他的你看他這個罰的這個費用都是十幾萬有幾萬到幾萬並不是只有6000塊啦所以其實是的確是他們都引用42條你回去看地方政府高雄市政府他罰的都是42條他沒有引用46條那之前的是用36條啦所以是6000到300萬不是不是之前這個"},{"start":5572.663,"end":5597.012,"text":"可能部長今天身體微恙我要跟你講那個要不要署長來回答他整個你自己去調出來你們到目前為止都沒有調出來我已經調出來他的整個裁罰紀錄裁罰紀錄裡面都是引用42條所以我就很納悶違法堆置這很多的那個理由都是違法堆置那違法堆置為什麼是引用42條呢署長你說那個"},{"start":5603.543,"end":5628.708,"text":"這裡我們的法案對於事業廢棄物會有6000到300萬他會依照他的程度那各個案不一樣所以有不一樣的裁判不過現在發生的這一案是引用46條而且移送檢調偵辦我知道啊 那之前的我要告訴你之前他已經多次違反而且非法堆置非法堆置為什麼是42條你要告訴我"},{"start":5629.688,"end":5652.055,"text":"是地方政府引用錯誤還是故意去用比較新的條文42條這個署長你要解釋啊保保委員應該是不會說引用錯誤啦他還是會經過那個因為他要用條文的時候在縣市政府裡面都會有類似而且他已經是多次違反了為什麼都是一直用42條"},{"start":5653.155,"end":5679.573,"text":"他會依照他堆置的量或地點犯罪的這個我覺得高雄市政府其實就是重新來處理嘛我不知道他為什麼要重新處理照道理來講他不是第一次喔他是多次已經是個累犯結果你在懲罰上面如果不是今天爆發出這個完全已經揭露在媒體把越世界變垃圾山這麼嚴重的情況"},{"start":5681.514,"end":5703.924,"text":"還要繼續縱放他嗎 繼續輕放嗎繼續用這種微不足道的來上課兩個小時然後懲罰都沒有超過五萬塊這個是不痛不癢啊所以我要求這個環境部你們要去督導地方政府啊就是說你到底你是怎麼在管理的我現在很擔心是以幼紅這一個案例來講"},{"start":5704.864,"end":5733.189,"text":"他就是去申請一個有啊他有登記啊他有登記在案啊他有一個牌照但是私底下又偷偷摸摸去勾結台南當地的這一些然後還我覺得最離譜的是把台南的家戶的垃圾也都敢這樣子運到這個越世界然後直接大量的十幾趟欸十幾趟的這個垃圾車就這樣子違法侵盜這個真的是無法無天啊所以我覺得你們應該要好好去督導啊"},{"start":5734.009,"end":5754.474,"text":"地方政府怎麼是這樣子在管理的呢如果說他是出犯 那沒有話講不是啊 你們自己去調出來看啊很多次了 非常多次了結果竟然是引用42條我覺得這個大有問題啊 好好去查一查吧另外一個我們來看一下"},{"start":5756.291,"end":5782.497,"text":"我們說中央要這個電子圍籬這個上次我也問過但是這一次你看他的手法他們自己一輛自駕車然後還可以去顧那個路口然後就可以這樣子違法的十幾趟的把這個垃圾堆到四五層樓高我們的公權力沒有辦法發現那我們的智慧圍籬射到哪裡去了"},{"start":5783.377,"end":5805.342,"text":"完全沒有辦法監控而且他們更大膽的是他可以跨縣市的犯案怎麼可以從台南然後運到高雄去我們的政府通通都不知道他不是偷運了一趟是高達十幾趟結果我們的智慧圍籬完全沒有效果這要怎麼改善我上次其實就問過你們說可以沒有問題沒有問題這個就有問題馬上就爆發出來了"},{"start":5812.881,"end":5815.245,"text":"這個情況我們未來還要編列23億5298萬1千元繼續要加裝這個智慧為理"},{"start":5822.859,"end":5843.461,"text":"如果連這一個都抓不到那以後我們裝的那個真的有辦法去達到阻嚇這一些非法的業者然後這樣子胡亂破壞我們的環境 青稻垃圾的問題嗎保委員 現在就是因為我們自衛委理是從明年度預算開始執行所以是說現在做的不夠"},{"start":5844.582,"end":5858.867,"text":"現在我們其實裝的數量相當的少不過效果很好就是說在一些重點那你高雄現在有裝嗎高雄有裝幾隻啦我們全國其實那他現在辦案的這個地方你們有裝嗎沒有那個數量實在太少"},{"start":5861.508,"end":5877.488,"text":"所以我們剛才委員講的23億那個部分是全國會有2000點那目前大概都是十幾點而已我們在重點繼續裝而已所以我們期待我們大院能夠支持這次的維理計畫我想會改善相當的多以上"},{"start":5878.479,"end":5905.08,"text":"我覺得這個真的是太誇張了這個業者他根本就是公然在挑戰我們的公權力發生這種事情這個如果上了國際媒體對台灣的形象傷害真的很大可以把一個觀光景點變成垃圾山感覺我們好像是無政府狀態所以這件事情中央跟地方都有督導不周的責任特別是地方政府怎麼可以長期縱容這樣子的一個"},{"start":5906.121,"end":5930.387,"text":"他號稱是合法的環保業者還是當地的里長然後渾然不知讓他可以在這邊大肆的破壞高雄的這個地貿環境這個真的是這個部長你今天身體不舒服你不用講很多話但是我希望你要知道這個是中央你對於地方政府如果有這樣的一個情況我也很擔心不是只有一例"},{"start":5931.147,"end":5956.857,"text":"你知道嗎從一個個案裡面我剛一再強調的有沒有人用合法來掩護非法這樣的一個問題我覺得是你們要有很高的敏感度那我覺得這次地方政府對於長期這樣的現象的漠視他甚至不敢去重罰我覺得這個都要看到啊地方是不是盤根錯節這樣的關係該展現公權力的時候完全沒有大肆的去整頓"},{"start":5957.717,"end":5975.843,"text":"我覺得這個是你作為中央主管機關作為部長你要好好去整頓好不好那最後一個我要講的是那個CCPR2026指標我剛好聽到你在回覆這個委員當然你會覺得說他們的績效這個不公平但是我要提醒部長"},{"start":5976.903,"end":5994.713,"text":"事實上在2020年的時候你自己也承認了人均碳排太高你當時不是部長的時候你也承認了那你現在作為部長你更有責任要來改善這樣的一個情況所以與其去批評人家的國際指標說哎呀他不公平"},{"start":5995.553,"end":6011.021,"text":"畢竟人家也是做了17年了怎麼樣的不公平他們持續性的對於63個國家去做這樣子的一個評估我們還是要敬佩人家這樣的一個精神不是只有說我們成績不好就說人家不公平"},{"start":6011.701,"end":6033.039,"text":"基本上台灣的表現 這幾年都不好都在倒數五名啊 不是倒數第五名就是倒數第四名 都在這邊徘徊而已所以它其實 這樣的一個指標還是有意義的它在提醒我們台灣 我們追求經濟發展的同時事實上我們減碳的速度 的確是不夠快的我們連台中火力發電廠燃煤機組要讓它關掉"},{"start":6036.922,"end":6058.162,"text":"這個連中央政府都有意見如果是這樣子的情況我們火力排放的比例佔的這麼高人家說我們溫室氣體排放表現是差的我們減排10%達不到我覺得它不是完全無所本這個真的是我們自己要好好思考的我們的能源政策就出了很大的問題"},{"start":6059.443,"end":6076.477,"text":"就是如果我們要一昧的我們根本做不到但我們高喊非核家園然後那個核能完全不用坦白講我們台灣能用的就很有限再生能源的發展坦白講也很有限我們地小人稠"},{"start":6077.418,"end":6091.806,"text":"所以我們不可能我們不是美國也不是中國大陸我們沒有大量的土地面積我們也沒有豐沛的水利資源所以再生能源本身我們就會受到一定的限制這個是我們要從能源政策好好的去盤點嘛"},{"start":6093.007,"end":6112.436,"text":"所以這件事情我覺得與其去挑戰說人家國際17年的評比指標說有一些不公平我們更需要做的其實是反省我們自己我們真的減碳的速度不夠快雖然有改善但是跟人家國際很多國家比較起來我們人均碳排真的就是高這個是你2020講過的"},{"start":6113.837,"end":6128.225,"text":"這也是事實啊你當時講的這句話我覺得很好啊這是事實啊務實的面對我覺得比較重要了所以我想這個部長你現在有權利就是如何檢探就是整個政府特別是"},{"start":6129.065,"end":6151.974,"text":"我覺得我們真的沒有不用核能的條件所以最近經濟部看起來好像有點醒了就是核三想要再研議了我覺得這是好的方向是晚了一點但是我們就承認在我們的天然能源結構條件不足的情況底下如果要減碳必須啟用部分的核能我覺得這是沒有辦法迴避的議題所以我希望這一題"},{"start":6153.114,"end":6166.318,"text":"這個部長 這個你現在有權利好好的把檢探工作做好 好不好好 謝謝委員好 祝你早日康復 謝謝接下來請邱政軍委員發言主席好 要請彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":6181.283,"end":6210.12,"text":"委員好 部長還好啦就坐四十幾個小時飛機啦可能被傳染 有點感冒質詢沒問題吧沒有問題沒有問題 備詢沒問題啦那我請問一下這個部長剛剛還是一樣就是CCPI的問題那排名 台灣排名是59名屬於全球性這個非常差的等級啦那這是評比用的是2023年跟2024年的排放營能源結構"},{"start":6211.241,"end":6224.898,"text":"那前两年那两年我们的核能还在运转再生能源也比前一年多一点也就是说就算有核电撑着再生能源勉强前进一点点我们依然只有59名"},{"start":6226.584,"end":6255.143,"text":"部長沒錯吧對 沒錯對啊 我們2023年2024年有八成都是靠這個石化燃料主要跟燃氣跟燃煤那到現在是現在有時候是火力全開火力發電全開那CCPI給台灣的評分理由很清楚天然氣被過度包裝成乾淨的能源那能源結構沒有朝1.5度C的路徑前進這個減排速度太慢再生能源進度落後"},{"start":6256.284,"end":6280.224,"text":"風電延宕那2025年核電正式退出火力必須補上那包含燃氣燃煤通通要往上拉這是你們政府的能源你們現在的能源規劃那部長我現在請問你一句非常簡單的問題那有核電的時候我們都是排到59名那明年在廢核火力全開的情況之下你認為CCPI的排名會進步嗎還是會退步"},{"start":6281.545,"end":6307.6,"text":"包委員因為CCPI它的評比有定向又有定性也就是說把很多的東西攪在一起所以基本上它的這個分數評比明智怎麼算出來就有很大的爭議那另外一個是你們是 你當然啦你是認為說它用人均排放不合理嘛對不對因為委員你講到核能像韓國它排在我們後面它的核能也佔了快要20%那我再問你那我現在意思就是說我們在未來這個部分有機會上升嗎"},{"start":6309.26,"end":6335.362,"text":"你有信心嗎我認為委員這個它並不是一個我說我等於是有人願意做這個評比我們都歡迎但是它如果是一個很有規模很有公信力它評比很正常的機構因為我只看到你在質疑就是說它用人均這個人均排放來評比不太公平那其他的你們表示說你們是默認還是怎麼樣"},{"start":6336.768,"end":6351.498,"text":"基本上這個就是一個NGO提出一些建議一些報告而已因為台灣把燃氣包裝成這個潔淨橋樑的燃料把天然氣宣傳成乾淨的過渡能源這是誤導性的做法嘛等於是直接打臉我們政府民進黨政府的能源政策"},{"start":6352.158,"end":6368.215,"text":"報告委員因為他有些專家會這樣認為但是國際上對於天然氣的排碳量還有它的污染的確都比較低所以我們現在選擇的就是說講我們好的那種專家我們才是比較認為他是專家那這種的專家就不是專家了"},{"start":6369.286,"end":6395.479,"text":"就是不一樣的看法嘛但是整個國際上 對 所以我們要聽誰的像我舉例 例如說新加坡沒有在裡面新加坡的這個燃氣大概占了95%所以基本上因為每個國家的地理條件因為全球暖化問題當然不會只有看這個碳排大國際研究早就說明天然氣只要2.7%因為甲烷的洩漏就比藍莓更髒 更暖化那甲烷的暖化威力是二氧化碳的86倍"},{"start":6397.06,"end":6415.561,"text":"那液化天然氣從開採壓縮液化運輸再到氣化每一段都會洩漏所以不管是IPCC這個1.5C的模型全球這個檢排路徑全部都把甲烷算進去風險這部分你們可能不知道"},{"start":6416.722,"end":6438.52,"text":"那个甲烷我们是我们台湾不是甲烷的出口这个进口我们是使用国那开采造成的碳排是属于那个国家但是有需求就有开采他自己就要算算在他自己的那我们是算说这个甲烷它本身的排量量多少所以他这样的这个说法有一点跟实际上的减碳的这个算法是不大一样的"},{"start":6438.76,"end":6464.572,"text":"那我再問一下就是說在這個淨零碳排的議題上我們環境部應該是要主導的怎麼感覺我們都是配合經濟部沒有 我們其實這個都是整個減碳的報告是經濟部是負責能源的部分那我們是負責整個匯整各個部會因為這個部分會不會影響環境我覺得你們要更清楚一點這是你們的業務不要被經濟部牽著走不要被經濟部牽著走"},{"start":6466.884,"end":6486.01,"text":"沒有 這個我們都是彼此在公平公正的在討論這個事情那風電因為光風電帶給我們人的影響之間我不認為再生能源成長率會有多少這個機會提升那我們未來有沒有能力降低這個燃氣的發電量還是只能往上衝"},{"start":6486.853,"end":6511.881,"text":"基本上燃氣現在規劃到2030 2035大概都不會超過50都40幾%那希望再生能源能夠順利能夠拉起來所以我們的確在國家的NDC3.0裡面就有制定一些能源的一個結構所以其實再生能源最多大概就到50%左右那消燃煤可以降到大概20%以上部長你在看 你在注意這個議題啦好不好不要被又被排到最後一名去了"},{"start":6512.541,"end":6526.952,"text":"不會 這個我再請教一下光除暗場要不要做環評光除暗場目前是應該是不用吧因為它是屬於在這個一些的設施的下面"},{"start":6528.048,"end":6556.867,"text":"不一定喔 有些是在社區旁邊跟委員報告 目前我們的還品相關法規裡面並沒有針對儲能設施去要求說要辦理還品因為儲能設施因為我看到就是說很多地方都在反對啦我都在反對這個問題也不是說今天才發生的一直以來這幾年我們陸陸續續看到民眾在抗爭那有些抗爭強一點的他就停下來了沒有抗爭的就繼續做所以我覺得這個部分你們有沒有想過要有一個規範"},{"start":6558.769,"end":6575.458,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前有收到有一些民眾會有一些擔憂跟疑慮那在我們修訂環評的認定標準的時候我們可以一起來把它做一個討論然後再看是不是把它納入我們的現在規定因為居民不了解我不敢說他一定會影響旁邊但是"},{"start":6576.138,"end":6591.632,"text":"我認為這個場地的使用應該要有一個規範出來讓業者或者民眾也比較懂這個要不然他隨時要設那民眾就恐慌而且他沒有經過環評也沒有說明會沒有說明沒有經過環評就沒有說明會沒有說明會這個老百姓就會"},{"start":6595.543,"end":6613.631,"text":"就會不懂不懂的話如果有人講什麼他們當然就會擔心因為這個部分因為離電池在旁邊第一會不會造成身體的影響第二會不會造成這個有風險就是萬一失火萬一失火這個我們消防的設施的規範是怎麼樣這些都是要納入考量的"},{"start":6615.602,"end":6642.07,"text":"這個我們會來討論那其實委員這個有一些再生能源或是新型態的或許是需要大家多一點瞭解不是說每一個都對我有害不然的話我們現在電動車也是一堆鋰電池在街上跑那是不是會有害所以基本上這個社會的溝通認知這個不一樣 車子當然你汽油也會爆炸你不能這樣講 對不對所以你不能把這個鋰電池把它裝成這個跟儲能廠我這是兩件事"},{"start":6643.19,"end":6657.737,"text":"這是兩件事情不要把它混為一堂問題這個是固定的如果它有危險它是固定的在我住的旁邊是長期在那裡的車子我有開才有上路才會有比較危險對不對 你不能這樣比較對不對"},{"start":6660.185,"end":6687.298,"text":"然後我們是希望你們把這個東西規範寫出來讓業者也好讓我們的老百姓也好都能夠比較清楚那最後一個就是說光電三法三讀後我看到很多光電業者跑去經濟部抗議他們說環評門檻提高會拖慢開發增加成本所以我現在要問的是環境部自己的立場這個光電環評加嚴經濟部本來就不樂見那你們之前態度也一直"},{"start":6688.078,"end":6703.881,"text":"不是要寫死要先觀察慢慢研議那現在已經我們國民黨民眾黨已經把環評的範圍寫進母法裡面你們反而不用去當壞人照理講環境部應該鬆一口氣那現在越來越反彈環境部的態度是什麼"},{"start":6704.523,"end":6727.242,"text":"包委員 這個其實我們都有規劃在我們的執法裡面要訂而且我們的執法如果一公告然後就要來做公聽本來就是這兩個月要做的事情那我記得黃國昌委員在大院質詢我說他要修改的時候他說那個數額可以來討論可是我覺得這一次修改因為上個禮拜我剛好在國外不好意思沒有參與到但是我是認為是在這個到底多少的量"},{"start":6728.102,"end":6746.79,"text":"要環評的部分的話沒有經過一個科學的討論就直接表決就過了我覺得這是我比較遺憾的地方那個可以討論那你會當這個環境永續的守門人嗎我們當然是守門人啊你不要遇到壓力等下要開後門給人家走了我不會因為那個法已經在母法在那邊我們要"},{"start":6747.61,"end":6772.269,"text":"環境部要改也是很困難我們也只能遵照大院的一個指示但是守護環境能夠不要破壞環境的一個情況下讓公眾能夠多了解什麼是環評然後多少要環評 衝擊是什麼這個也是很重要的好 謝謝部長好 謝謝接下來請王振旭委員來做詢問"},{"start":6774.807,"end":6784.626,"text":"那王委員宣導結束之後我們就休息十分鐘謝謝好 謝謝主席那還是要麻煩彭部長部長"},{"start":6788.701,"end":6808.591,"text":"王委員好部長辛苦 飛了40個小時再回到臺灣而且在這段時間參加那麼多的會議除了COP30以外還跑去巴拉圭進行一趟非常成功的一個兩國之間相關的一些協議跟討論很多重要的事情"},{"start":6809.031,"end":6835.82,"text":"非常感謝部長的辛勞我們也瞭解像今天在部長的報告裡面針對於這個非洲豬瘟的防疫工作所做的努力也看到有良好的成果不過我想還是有兩個部分再跟部長做請教一個就是出於化的這些政策完整規劃目前的進度跟未來的走向另外就是如果精進環評制度之下的具體策略"},{"start":6837,"end":6863.632,"text":"那有關於廚餘巨化政策完整的規劃的部分我們知道其實廚餘如何減量跟如何再利用就是未來一定會走的方向那在這一次的這個非洲豬瘟相關的應變作為裡面呢如何能夠讓這個源頭減量跟高質化的利用的具體目標跟配套的措施的確我們也看到很多"},{"start":6864.992,"end":6891.028,"text":"在我書面報告裡面有在講到目前的這個禁用期間各縣市的除了維持既有的處理的處理方式以外那必要的時候就變成需要焚化跟掩埋的方式來做輔助處理目前看起來好像是主要是從這個部分在做相關的因應那如果將來處於禁養政策變成是長期的方向的話呢"},{"start":6891.528,"end":6914.523,"text":"那如何能夠去把這個每天多出來495噸的這些廚藝能夠做有效的處置這個是未來大家非常關心的部分那不知道到目前為止剛剛部長提到說最近會再跟行政院各個部會來做相關的檢討那有沒有比較可以再說明的地方"},{"start":6915.143,"end":6929.597,"text":"報告委員因為我們也統計了各個縣市他對於這個的態度那也呈現了很不一樣的結果例如說有的縣市認為是全面禁用廚餘但是他的廚餘的怎麼去處理他沒有特別去關注"},{"start":6930.197,"end":6948.528,"text":"那有些縣市呢其實是希望有珍珠場共同珍珠場那有些縣市呢可以說是有條件的例如說可不可以讓他把這個生殖能的或是堆肥的部分能夠啟動之後再來花一年或一年半時間把它禁掉所以目前呢我們一個縣市一個縣市在溝通因為這些縣市都是地方政府"},{"start":6949.048,"end":6972.403,"text":"要來積極處理這個事情的但是我們中央也必須要有政策所以我們預計呢希望是這個禮拜能夠跨部會還有跟地方政府完全協商之後會正式提出一個政策出來是那記得上一次跟部長在我們這個委員會討論的時候如何把線性經濟轉變成為循環經濟這個是部長一直在提倡的觀念那也希望我們能夠往這個方向來執行"},{"start":6973.744,"end":6995.13,"text":"我們可以看一下其實日本他們這20年來真的非常用心的如何讓廚餘相關的這些政策能夠得到很好的改善尤其他們是希望能夠控制不管是非洲豬瘟或者是狂牛症帶來的這種影響川島教授他其實今年在聯合國農糧組織裡面"},{"start":6996.73,"end":7015.448,"text":"有報告了日本他們努力的方向從這個原來大量生產大量消費跟大量處置的單向社會裡面轉向我們所期待的循環型的社會那這部分他們為了要做這些事情制定了相當多的法"},{"start":7016.91,"end":7039.903,"text":"法規包括建立循環型的社會基本法這是在2000年他們就已經制定好後來又陸續制定了廢棄物的處理跟公共清潔法還有食品資源的回收等等那從他們的法令規定裡面就直接要求第一步最重要的就是要做這個抑制食品的廢棄就是發生廢棄"},{"start":7041.684,"end":7068.303,"text":"那其次呢才去做相關的這個廚餘尤其是在生廚餘的部分呢在還沒有到進到餐桌之前要去讓它有機會變成飼料化或肥料化這個是他們在做的一個模式展現出減量再利用跟安全三軸並行的方案在執行目前日本有關於這個廚餘減量或者是再利用的部分"},{"start":7068.863,"end":7089.904,"text":"那這部分也剛好上個禮拜部長有提到我也參加了相關的這個行程跟農業部還有環境部的同仁一起去了解他們日本目前執行的狀況如何能夠讓這個大家共同的來努力把這個發生的意志就是減量的部分可以確定的來執行"},{"start":7091.105,"end":7110.9,"text":"他們在因應這個過程裡面就發明也發揮了他們的創意提出一個叫EcoFit這樣的環保飼料的名詞讓大家都能夠知道因為透過EcoFit就可以讓廚餘得到很好的一個再利用的方式"},{"start":7111.56,"end":7138.805,"text":"他們這個再利用同時可以減少在日本準備相關的飼料防小育的這些成本事實上就可以適度的降低所以未來在規劃的部分部長有沒有一些想法或者是針對於日本的這樣的做法可以提供給國人做參考或者是未來在制定政策的方向可以給大家一些更多的了解"},{"start":7139.987,"end":7167.906,"text":"對 謝謝委員的建議因為日本的這個概念非常好因為我們上禮拜我們有同仁也跟著委員去看去日本看了那基本上呢跟我之前收集到的資料也都一樣例如說家戶的廚餘或是小吃的廚餘因為裡面的很複雜就不要進到這個養豬的這個內容裡面那其他的部分如果是餐廳或是說一些比較好的這個事業處理的造成的這個食品的廢棄物的話他就可以或許就可以照日本的這樣在走"},{"start":7168.366,"end":7196.62,"text":"所以目前日本我們跟農業部因為這個部分是農業部在主政我們跟農業部一起來配合來協助所以目前的確日本的廚餘的處理方法是我們的選項的重要參考指標之一其實上個禮拜我們去桃園考察桃園的生殖能中心也有相關非常好的一些技術可以把廚餘轉化成為飼料或者飼料營養液甚至是有機肥料包括對於一些土地土壤的改善"},{"start":7197.04,"end":7222.271,"text":"事實上都有幫助我們上次去看縱圖的時候其實是很期待往這個方向來做一個研議這個部分就麻煩部長持續的用心好 謝謝好 那再過來就是有關環評法跟環評制度總檢討這個部分我們環評上路已經三十年了可是只做了四次的小幅的修正那去年底委託這個環境法律人協會來辦理一個環評的總體檢"},{"start":7226.933,"end":7256.068,"text":"到了今年我們看到檢討的報告檢討報告目前針對執法還有修法的具體策略不知道部長這邊有沒有掌握有 我們預計其實這兩個月都有找各個利害團體來進行一些討論 公聽目前我們預計年底就會提出環境影響評估的制度的精進的措施就是今年會年底會提出一個措施我們希望如果法令要修改的話明年可以來做這個事情"},{"start":7256.488,"end":7274.828,"text":"但是我也發現就是說大家對於環評想像的很不一樣有些人希望越嚴越好有些人希望越快越好那有些人希望說這個不要拖了時間太久造成整個經濟發展等於是這個出現了很大的分歧我們希望能夠透過這次的這個精進的檢討能夠來解決這個問題"},{"start":7276.69,"end":7294.918,"text":"是 其實部長講到一個重點就是大家認為環評是聯合遊戲那結果其實不應該是這個樣子我們希望有更好的思維模式那在這個報告裡面其實有提到目前事業主管機關在環評程序上的角色可能有點弱化"},{"start":7295.658,"end":7321.808,"text":"就是好像所有重責單全部都是環境部其他的單位的配合或者是相關的一些處置會相對比較不足那如果是這個風險評估的這個權責措置或者是跨部會的環境議題全部由來環境部來承擔實權的話似乎我們期待有不同的方式來做相關的考量那這個部分部長可不可以有什麼更好的一些想法"},{"start":7322.769,"end":7346.01,"text":"最近我們也在嘗試有一些案例就是說有些可能未來會有爭議的我們希望說他們在前緣就可以有更好的協作平臺來溝通把這個利害關係者在前面先溝通完成那這個其實國外有一些例如說以生態為主的一個方案我們已經在嘗試當中那我們希望那個可以成功那目前的確委員提到的就是重點所有的壓力全部在我們身上因為我們有否決權"},{"start":7347.051,"end":7369.408,"text":"所以全部都在我們的身上那這個呢對於很多的目的事業主管機關單位他可能就直接丟到我們這邊反正壞人我們來做所以就造成很大的衝擊我們希望說因為很多的國家不是像臺灣這樣的制度所以我們也希望說未來可以經由大家的討論找出來一個臺灣可以稍微再更好的一個方式再走現在目前還沒有答案但是我覺得現在的問題是蠻大的"},{"start":7370.973,"end":7384.806,"text":"是 我們希望Ecosystems應該從源頭就開始不是到最後的才透過環境部來做最後處理這樣其實是不是理想的一種方式來因應這個社會的或者是環境的變遷"},{"start":7386.127,"end":7413.766,"text":"最後就再請教一下部長有關因應這個氣候變遷如何遵循國際相關的這個標準跟落實跨國的合作那剛剛好多人也提到您早上提到了這個相關CCPI在評比上的一些問題不過還是要請教就是說未來如何在這個COP30之後呢有關於國際合作還有國內跨部會之間如何共同來因應這種氣候變遷帶來的問題"},{"start":7417.247,"end":7436.772,"text":"謝謝委員因為這次其實我也跟很多的友邦都有還有非友邦也進行一些面對面的這個雙邊的一個會議其實大家都很肯定我們台灣過去在制定NDC的一個做法特別是過去這一年多很不一樣的這個企圖心那未來呢我是覺得有一個深水區就是說因為"},{"start":7437.492,"end":7463.117,"text":"巴黎氣候協定這個COP裡面的實際上政府的談判是很重要的那可是我們並沒有在那個裡面所以我未來我們跟雙邊的合作能夠瞭解國際的甚至一起去我們的檢探也可以跟國際的檢探去做連結這個部分是我們要突破的所以這個也就是說為什麼要到巴拉圭花三天時間跟他們好好細談建立一種連結的關係甚至我們的友邦貝里斯等等我們都會積極在做"},{"start":7464.625,"end":7490.65,"text":"好所以不管是針對人民健康糧食安全或者是生態永續這個的確除了需要跨國合作以外那我們自己政府這個跨部門的合作也非常非常的重要那期待如果部長有在這個合作或者是在這些處理過程裡面有一些會議的記錄報告的話可不可以提供給我們做參考好可以可以那就麻煩部長好謝謝"},{"start":7494.229,"end":7505.001,"text":"好 謝謝王偉 謝謝部長重新公告黃雄偉 訓導結束後再休息十分鐘謝謝主席 我們請部長來 請部長"},{"start":7520.62,"end":7542.035,"text":"部長好部長我今天想要請教就是我們那個資源回收的這個區塊那我們知道就是說在前一陣子因為非洲豬瘟的關係所以我們那個廚餘回收生廚餘或熟廚餘可能就沒辦法養豬那其實一般的民眾他對於"},{"start":7542.875,"end":7571.349,"text":"到底这个果皮到底是生厨余或者熟厨余其实有的会搞不清楚那另外就是说有的县市他也不收这个果皮那有的县市收果皮所以我觉得说环境部针对这一部分你们是不是要制定一个标准让地方政府可以依循所以部长我想请教就是说像你如果你有吃香蕉的话那这个香蕉皮"},{"start":7572.67,"end":7581.342,"text":"這個香蕉皮是廚餘是可以丟到這個生廚餘裡這個桶子裡面或者是直接丟到垃圾桶是"},{"start":7582.659,"end":7603.255,"text":"保委員因為各縣市他處女生熟處女有的是以前是養豬有的豬他是不吃一些果皮的所以這些果皮會跑到堆肥裡面可是有一些地方他可能是堆肥的又不夠"},{"start":7604.136,"end":7623.354,"text":"或者是各个设施不一样所以他们在对清洁队员在收的时候就会指导这些民众你应该把它放在什么地方依照各地方设施的不同所以是依照各地方设施不同然后它到底是身处于或者是垃圾或者是"},{"start":7624.935,"end":7640.661,"text":"這到底可不可以回收就是按照地方政府的規定原則上中央有一個定定有一個指導原則像三十王振旭這個委員你有提到那帳號到底是什麼這件事情"},{"start":7641.101,"end":7662.204,"text":"所以我們確實有一張不過執行面確實有時候在地方政府我們可以再跟他們多多宣導還是依照我們那一張去做那他們最主要考慮的是他們的這個設施的能量跟他的類別所以他會有小小的一個差異但是差異不大"},{"start":7663.01,"end":7689.487,"text":"差異不大那我想請教就是剛剛講的這個香蕉皮那它到底是這個廚餘還是垃圾一般是做堆肥去的堆肥所以是生廚餘對生廚餘那我想請教就是這個西瓜皮然後橘子皮柚子皮這種軟果皮它到底是這個也會去堆肥因為豬不喜歡吃酸的東西像這些鳳梨或橘子皮這類的"},{"start":7690.347,"end":7718.282,"text":"好 那有的縣市它根本這種果皮它根本也都不收嘛就像基隆它就只有收熟廚餘嘛那其他生廚餘它是不收的因為它沒有那個處理的這個堆肥的量所以它直接焚燒好 那像那個椰子殼啊然後那個榴槤殼有的縣市是收有那個台北市 新北市 高雄市它是另外包的話它是收喔"},{"start":7719.488,"end":7734.264,"text":"所以我都覺得說應該環境部針對生廚餘 熟廚餘或者是這些果皮到底可不可以回收我覺得應該也要有一個統一的標準吧"},{"start":7735.906,"end":7758.222,"text":"那如果说这个县市它的设备不足是不是可以协调各县市政府也许它可以做成堆肥嘛就像刚刚署长讲的可以做成堆肥那如果说它的设施不足的话是不是应该也要去协调地方政府这个我们看到资源回收车都说这个回收这个就是资源嘛"},{"start":7759.062,"end":7788.037,"text":"對啊那個垃圾可以回收就是資源回收車都是這樣說的所以我是不是可以建議就是環境部針對這一部分應該要有更讓民眾可以知道就是說那這些軟的果皮是不是可以做成堆肥或者是就是可以回收那有時候這個現實是這樣子另外一個現實又不一樣好像真的還蠻混亂的所以我是不是可以建議環境部針對這一部分是不是應該要做一個統一"},{"start":7789.465,"end":7803.685,"text":"是 謝謝委員建議我們來做一個指引跟一個統一不過剛才特別提到的真的確實都是會產生爭議的譬如說椰子殼等等之類的"},{"start":7804.522,"end":7825.028,"text":"那這種個別的我們對個別鄉市政跟縣市政府再來做了解他不收的原因確實是什麼有一些是快速堆肥有一些是傳統堆肥一般傳統堆肥還好快速堆肥的話有一些料他們就會選那是不是在縣府裡面做一個統一的調度這個我們來"},{"start":7826.869,"end":7846.368,"text":"來做協調是好那我再請教就是說從非洲豬瘟爆發到現在我們現在是廚餘禁止養豬那現在大部分縣市的這個廚餘都怎麼去化大概每個縣市不一樣那像我們目前統計出來大概48%是進到焚化爐"},{"start":7848.632,"end":7860.883,"text":"就直接進到焚化爐那你現在還是除於禁養豬那直接進到焚化爐這個所有的收除魚那湯湯水水全部都進到焚化爐那這個焚化爐的壽命就會減短"},{"start":7862.604,"end":7885.141,"text":"因為他那個我們現在說鼓勵要瀝乾就是湯湯水水少一些所以基本上現在你看那個廚藝的量我們統計現在1000大概1700噸左右之前是平均是2100所以少了很多因為就是湯湯水水那如果要進這個焚化爐他一定要把這個水能夠瀝乾才能夠進去不是說直接把那個一桶的收水直接倒進去不是這樣的"},{"start":7885.841,"end":7910.658,"text":"所以我是不是在這邊也要請部長就是說我在上禮拜在經濟委員會的時候我有問農業部的陳部長就是說我們現在目前是除以禁止養豬所有的養豬協會他們是希望除以就不要再養豬了全台灣目前還有差不多8%左右"},{"start":7914.401,"end":7927.555,"text":"這個養豬場他是用廚餘養豬那是不是可以因為廚餘的這個去化的部分就是在環境部那到底要不要養豬是農業部的責任那如果說未來真的廚餘禁止養豬的話後續"},{"start":7929.556,"end":7944.543,"text":"廚餘要怎麼去處理就回到這個環境部這邊要來處理要來傷腦筋了所以我是不是可以請教部長雖然這個前一陣子我們這個署長這邊也有在各北中南各開就是讓所有的養豬場"},{"start":7946.483,"end":7971.135,"text":"如果你是用廚餘養豬的話政府會補助就是真主的一些設備真主的監控的設備那是不是可以建議未來因為既然這些養豬協會有這樣的建議就是廚餘不要再養豬因為像我們這一次單一個案的一個廠家就影響到整個全台灣15天淨運淨載"},{"start":7974.096,"end":8000.366,"text":"那也影響到各這個跟豬肉有關的所有的行業所有的產業那這個產業大約有2000億的這個產值所以我既然就是說這個養豬協會有這樣的一個建議那這個農業部的部長也有說要跟環境部這邊再來討論溝通那我想請教部長如果未來當然我們知道現在目前廚餘是直接進到這個焚化爐"},{"start":8001.707,"end":8015.849,"text":"那這個也不是一個永久之計那未來我們廚餘如果禁止養豬的話如果溝通完之後這個未來的目標是廚餘禁止養豬那你們環境部要怎麼去處理去化這些廚餘"},{"start":8016.978,"end":8044.328,"text":"包委員那個當然如果說現在全面禁用的話對於我們環境的設施的處理會是一個非常大的壓力但是目前我們也特別也找過專家諮詢會等於焚化爐大概可以接受10%的這個廚餘在裡面如果立竿的話日本也是這樣在做的所以理論上10%是可以目前我們如果全面禁用可能很辛苦可能也有一些爭議可能也可以過得了那第二個是有人建議說是不是有點落日"},{"start":8044.728,"end":8064.63,"text":"可能一年或是一年半那這個就等我們環保設施的量能夠起來這是最好那也有人說家戶廚餘不要進去只事業廚餘進去就好了所以現在其實大概有五六種方案在那邊那這個部分可能要行政院跨部會協調才能夠來解決我們希望盡早在這個禮拜可不可以對外說明有一個結果"},{"start":8065.652,"end":8081.594,"text":"我希望就是說儘快因為從10月中一直到現在其實一個多月的時間那你廚餘如果全部都進到這個焚化爐其實造成焚化爐未來可能會有一個很大的傷害所以我希望就是說"},{"start":8082.414,"end":8104.622,"text":"環境部跟農業部這邊應該要儘速趕快去溝通未來廚餘的去化問題那如果目標未來的目標短程目標或者是遠程目標最終就是廚餘要禁止養豬的話那你們應該也要再去想一下這些廚餘要怎麼去化不要再造成這個像台中市一樣直接把廚餘直接倒到這個坑"},{"start":8106.323,"end":8121.257,"text":"這個坑裡面去其實這個都造成這個環境二度的一個傷害所以我希望就是說環境部應該要未雨綢繆趕快去想一下未來廚餘要怎麼去化有 我們現在都在一直在進行兩部在協商當中好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝部長我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8206.937,"end":8208.268,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8944.622,"end":8966.453,"text":"好 接下來請蘇青園召委來做詢問主席辛苦了 謝謝主席那我請部長 然後我們請原署長原署長辛苦了蘇委員好"},{"start":8970.444,"end":8994.615,"text":"部長 我今天來問你比較實際的比較Practical的問題你剛剛早上報 說這幾年來沒有啦 這半年來啦 古年的山左右颱風近年又風頹風頹 雲加南被淡若溼 洋流 一個接一個然後這個都是非常嚴重"},{"start":8995.996,"end":9019.035,"text":"好 下一張那我們有去考察我們嘉義的那幾個滯洪池啊新莊農場啊等等來 你看這個這就是現場用碎的機器搞一搞之後就上車就走了旁邊看到的全部都是各位看到這樣"},{"start":9025.728,"end":9030.45,"text":"這樣不會大馬路旁邊這樣不會造成污染嗎那再來這些能源公司像我們去看的那個溫啊那個自容池六十幾公頃到現在來 下一張你看這個這今天已經有人搬過了到十一月十八"},{"start":9054.878,"end":9065.183,"text":"光電辦公室還泡在水裡不然你很辛苦啦 袁世榮你也很辛苦 大家都很辛苦但是我看你是不會這樣善後啦 不會這樣切磋創業啦這個地方 這個地方 一開始開發的公司什麼雲啦 什麼報啦 什麼泰商啦 連那個泰國的"},{"start":9079.912,"end":9103.656,"text":"什麼MP Energy這是一個做糖的公司做糖業的公司居然再來台灣做人家的二包我們的A廠商去套地去跟銀行拿錢搬錢出來開始蓋蓋完之後就把這個金銀就丟給B然後A就拍拍屁股 獲利了結就走人了"},{"start":9104.568,"end":9131.179,"text":"然後這個也不是你環境部的事情嘛你也沒有辦法固定什麼現在這個美公司 它死了 輸到訪台了這就訪台了 迷迷茫茫這公司一間一間有交叉持股沒什麼 幾大堆啦 原金啦 泰商啦美國的外國的 英商 貝萊德啦 朝陽啦好 骨肉骨粟的幾大堆這裡都在轉來轉去那現在"},{"start":9135.941,"end":9146.433,"text":"颱風吹了 這些騙子亂七八糟 到現在你給他花了三百萬 三百萬 三百萬他敢不敢他敢不敢 我就不省了"},{"start":9149.966,"end":9171.629,"text":"保護委員我們總共實際上才罰了五次總共九百萬那另外環保局那邊也罰了一次一百萬所以有一千萬這一個他繳交的狀況是他們現在還在讓他這一個什麼那個訴願期間所以後續還是會要求"},{"start":9172.351,"end":9196.279,"text":"他還可以掃蕩 掃蕩之後還可以行政訴訟要替你報告的是 屏東那裡 古泥山作颱風古泥很多事情 山作颱風之後有幾個地方 光電板也壞掉了壞掉之後呢 他就要行政部署嘛行政部署 那產險公司 差不多大約都要賠一半"},{"start":9197.754,"end":9204.848,"text":"賠一半 另外一半他就要再貸款確實是他就要自己心底想清楚嘛現在這理工師他現在站到"},{"start":9209.656,"end":9227.928,"text":"把台電拿到的錢就是差不多去納銀行的平均利息償還 差不多二十年嘛像我自己這剛好三年而已三年後你現在一大片受傷那麼慘重他要再去銀行貸第二次款請問會有銀行貸給他嗎銀行是不是在笑啊不然你還要付錢啊"},{"start":9234.134,"end":9253.234,"text":"這不是我的事這不是我的事你說我給你賠我給你賠輸 來 不會沒剩我的 沒有我的嘛這年輕人 大家都孤兒要第二屆要貸款給你不可能嘛所以你說屏東那些地方一地方都要繳多少千萬萬千萬萬的這個他只要一半自己拿下去"},{"start":9256.768,"end":9280.483,"text":"這個B公司A公司就賺掉了我們也賺掉了 獲利掉了現在這個B公司就是客家維持我們四個現在出這個大方胎之後銀行如果還小小的在地上貸款還在建資之後也是恢復到以前繼續發展對不對 沒錯這樣對不對對 這營運模式是這樣如果再一個方胎來現在方胎要來賺什麼現在這集團企業像你說的一年這麼多年"},{"start":9285.922,"end":9300.17,"text":"整個環境部都在疲於奔命啊 我看原署長好可憐的呢去一個出國團隊出來 我命還要死啊現在回來之後 每天就睡在房間 每天就在房間灰頭土臉 這樣命到臉黏臉 這樣 這樣也會被罵啊這 你們這做得這樣 太辛苦了"},{"start":9308.398,"end":9319.826,"text":"這個公司他如果要貸款 現在的銀行會貸給他 我說我來賺啦如果貸給他 銀行有價值 再一屆風災來 又叫掃損我們就再貸三屆 那不可能的事情嘛所以就在擺爛 就在拼的那裡你突然間在那裡回到現場 不斷地說 如果沒有人來請"},{"start":9332.091,"end":9348.476,"text":"人家說戴匯球場 你不要再整個戴匯球場了 糟糕糟糕擺我們撤退 搞不好就丟在那邊搞什麼 搞什麼 我們大家在全民買單這個是很糟糕的事情耶 北京 這要怎麼 你想要怎麼"},{"start":9350.687,"end":9364.976,"text":"這個善後的解決是他們一定要按照法規來處理那目前的那個我知道有幾家那個圓心永興是那個他們想要想要這個再重新開始但是這個還要還慢慢長路"},{"start":9366.042,"end":9380.95,"text":"對啊 你只要說他們要第二天來認證擔保評 重複也比較有可能所以我看我自己單獨自己在做套路的人很失勢不是在親差公共上上槓不然你行政會開發基金再開啟什麼沒可能"},{"start":9384.844,"end":9399.183,"text":"所以這一定要我們探視好 我問你33個案場這33個案場是幾個要復原幾個要放棄了你知不知道那應該不是你的事啦這是能源署的事能源署 能源署今天到來"},{"start":9399.844,"end":9422.836,"text":"沒有沒有 今天是我的業務報告不是能源署這不是能源署的事 你看這三十三個地方後面還有一個風災來 又多三十三個地方整個台灣都沒有了所以我們這種極端氣候下我們台灣這種這樣子脆弱的地形地貌我們有辦法承受這種嗎那這一次也是一個很大的教訓啊衛德都回來 將你們的COP 13"},{"start":9427.998,"end":9444.33,"text":"結論是什麼 結論就是漸漸的減少使用石化燃料然後再生能源要含有核能 很清楚的 妥協也好我看好像會場聽了一個半小時 一個半小時在說結論"},{"start":9447.574,"end":9454.877,"text":"我們台灣現在 我們也不及格 你訓練一些歷齡的人 現在要來輔導你現在說實話 我們台灣現在歷齡的人 訓練一堆人這些人的訓練 我看三萬多個 你是要請幾個"},{"start":9468.058,"end":9487.217,"text":"沒有啦沒有啦 委員那個是平均啦我們比平均薪資還多個5%左右啦對啦 有比較高啦不是4萬他那個藥咖在公聽會啦說什麼請不請戴克老師請不人要做老師啦正當我老師還在找忙頭腦現在不然要做戴克老師薪水太多嘛你一天要發7萬大家就要來了啦 對不對"},{"start":9491.297,"end":9499.246,"text":"我們總統常常都在說我們的首都多關 都多關台府那裡假的這才是條件啊你把他弄多關 要不然這些孩子啊讓你上課 衝衝而已喔現在去到工廠我是希望像那個"},{"start":9509.318,"end":9533.356,"text":"消防的 顧問公司來給我們來給我們 給大家公司做輔導跟他們說你做什麼 做什麼 做什麼這要有種性質啦 跟你說要怎麼輔導不是說一間公司要請一個 公司要怎麼請得上去不然我講話有理嗎有啊 有啊行政要幫忙提高啊 行政六七八萬這樣就 大家這麼的孩子什麼 什麼"},{"start":9537.691,"end":9544.517,"text":"CVAM 叫Carbon嘛Carbon這一類的那這個是國內實際的那將來你這個打算怎麼做訓練了多少人了"},{"start":9550.9,"end":9571.258,"text":"現在的需求的人就是兩萬多人但是需求這是現在在上面要的你分年幾個我們一年大概明年開今年大概會到兩千多人那明年會到三千五百人另外三千還是多了一千多人多了 額外額外所以是兩千多到三千多對你不知道五六年就沒了沒有 這個需求量應該還會更大還會更大"},{"start":9577.421,"end":9590.769,"text":"這如果訓練所有給每間公司的減碳、碳稅、碳費什麼的,整個都可以,現在兩個國家都不可以支持,一個是美國,一個是中國大陸,這全世界都在想什麼,這兩個國家,像川普說的那些笑的,說的那些都笑的,就做笑話這麼講的,你跟歐盟在那裡說,有沒有好?"},{"start":9602.597,"end":9618.392,"text":"現在美國的美國是短暫的啦是那個一些可能是暫時的美國短暫 美國我看它還會浮浪很久它還要久很久現在石化 岳岩油什麼都在浪啊"},{"start":9619.229,"end":9637.539,"text":"我跟美國的Google跟很多ICT的公司有基民他們都很堅定的支持這些事情聯邦政府是比較沒有但是ICT產業都是很支持的所以我們這個路這樣走是對的是是沒問題啦沒問題訓練這些人將來有出路有可以輔導我們的工程有有謝謝有啦好謝謝謝謝有啦好"},{"start":9648.706,"end":9651.79,"text":"好 接下來請廖偉雄 趙偉來做詢問謝謝趙偉 請彭部長來 部長"},{"start":9667.561,"end":9687.505,"text":"廖委員好部長好 辛苦了坐了這麼久的飛機然後有感冒那部長我先第一個要問前幾天這個台南後壁的烏樹林的廢棄物的站置場起火燃燒首先我想問到現在是不是還在燜燒現在火已經停了但是還是有一些燜燒的煙會跑出來所以還是有燜燒的狀況對不對對"},{"start":9690.846,"end":9709.916,"text":"去年其實我也就講過垃圾戰事場垃圾山遍佈全台的議題你當時是說2026解決全台的戰事垃圾山但是這個台南的這個戰事場發生火災請問部長除了監控全台的戰事場的量這個增加之外要怎麼"},{"start":9711.156,"end":9727.829,"text":"預防這種因為附近沒有監視器所以容易發生不明原因的大火的這種戰事場的狀況好 謝謝委員因為這個是屬於台南發生丹納斯的風災大量的露宿還有家庭的廢棄物出來他們找到一個附近他們當然多了三四個點"},{"start":9728.69,"end":9753.627,"text":"在放這個這些東西啦那他們其實在我們這個丹納市的特別條例預算裡面都有編定一個預算如何去去化這些事情所以這個是一個短暫的過程但是我們預估這個去化也要需要到明年才能夠完成所以這個是一個過程當中發生這個事件我們也感到很遺憾部長這兩個點還是一樣這個災後廢棄屋到底怎麼處理而且要多久時間處理這是一回事另外"},{"start":9754.528,"end":9768.921,"text":"你說因為這個風災然後戰事之後發生這件事情如果當時現場有任何一條人命或任何公安意外怎麼辦這是不是一個很嚴重的問題怎麼聽起來好像有一個理由就"},{"start":9769.702,"end":9793.337,"text":"就讓人覺得好像就可以帶過去一樣沒有沒有 這個其實因為它是一個戰制的過程然後它必須還是因為這個大多數是可燃的我們燒的地方還是樹木為主樹木的素質部長等一下我再進一步問到底有哪些狀況因為這個其實也很特別因為針對這個氣象署的足量的雨量資料11月份台南間車站有降雨4天"},{"start":9794.218,"end":9810.368,"text":"那有總共譬如說永康監測站下了6天的雨那這個火災的原因到底是什麼這個現在還要等到他們消防單位來鑑定是會有人為的狀況嗎還是他純粹是有這個高熱物質在裡面悶燒這個現在還不知道"},{"start":9811.468,"end":9825.378,"text":"因為本席其實曾經掉月2019年到2023年全國49處的垃圾站置場5年間就發生了72起火災那其實以台南這個仁德掩埋場之前發生火災也只用空污法才罰了5000元"},{"start":9827.279,"end":9855.431,"text":"我覺得根本不痛不癢那這個部分到底要怎麼處理啊那另外去年我在問的時候你也部長也被詢說要答應要偵射移動式的滅火水塔偵射也沒有新的進度這樣子面對這樣子的狀況要怎麼處理包委員這個是屬於新的這個是新的戰制我知道就是因為風災後可是我的意思一樣有很多這樣子的戰制場那你要到底要怎麼管理才不會再發生這樣子的問題"},{"start":9856.913,"end":9869.76,"text":"我們舊的是有啦但是新的部分的話我們會再跟同仁來討論說跟環保局再確認說不是因為你新設的時候你當時就應該要要求他們是不是就要做管理這是不是代表流程上管理上都有疏忽"},{"start":9872.35,"end":9885.962,"text":"因為你說這個量體非常大那我想要進一步說的就是這樣子看起來長期的監管失靈會不會導致我們現在很多面對這樣的事情只重視文件的審查而不是實體的管控"},{"start":9886.963,"end":9907.624,"text":"甚至在第一線的時候這些管理是不是也只是簡單的去對這些相關的數字那像這樣子新的戰車場出現的時候究竟有什麼樣的SOP因為我要進一步的指出喔當發生這樣的火災現在目前為止請問你們只有公布說PM2.5 PM10的指標是不是"},{"start":9909.652,"end":9929.265,"text":"對嗎可是裡面究竟有沒有其他相關的有毒物質包含著這個戴奧辛啊或者是膚男啊或者是氯化氫這些這些有沒有去檢測難道燒的時候你說真的只有樹木嗎不會有一些塑膠嗎不會有一些其他的有毒的這個廢棄物在裡面燃燒嗎"},{"start":9931.839,"end":9959.352,"text":"更有報告 烏樹林這個場是颱風之後集中的一個場那其實它是暫時的一個場在整個台南的計畫裡面它也有提特別條例也有預算準備把它清除那不幸的在這段期間它發生不過我們初步雖然在這個火災調查不過最可能的一些原因樹木堆積多了確實它在這個"},{"start":9960.852,"end":9988.618,"text":"熟化的過程會產生一些木質的一些氣體出來那是比較容易燃燒的可能是這個原因在烏樹林的這個場剛開始但是署長你可以確定裡面沒有其他的有毒物質在燃燒嗎因為我說真的啦你們現在只講常常只講說這個空品預警只有講PM2.5或PM10的這些常見的指標那請問有沒有其他的有毒物那住在附近的這些居民怎麼辦"},{"start":9989.338,"end":10017.112,"text":"你們有沒有什麼相關的配套所以現在就兩個問題嘛你要怎麼去檢討精進第一個你的戰事場出現之後你要怎麼去管理他不會發生這樣的事情第二個當發生這樣的事情的時候你們的公布的這些指標還有沒有其他的有毒物質的去鑑定對不對第三個現在常常的短期戰事場都變成永久戰事啊他可以申請再延長申請再延長你到底什麼時候可以把它處理完"},{"start":10023.814,"end":10047.213,"text":"跟委員報告其實這塊地是先跟國防部借的一塊地台南跟國防部也有在討論它的去化國防部希望他趕快把它處理掉所以實際上他到今年12月開始他就要啟動他的減量往外運的一個過程他的進度大概是這個樣子"},{"start":10047.833,"end":10066.728,"text":"沒有署長我要跟你說這是一個事件而已但是最近發生的事件太多了這只是你只是解釋這個事件我要講的事情是你結構性系統性管理上面制度上面你到底要怎麼精進今天發生這個大火你們說要燒多久之前是不是說要燒七天一個禮拜還是要多少時間"},{"start":10067.714,"end":10089.147,"text":"目前火勢已經控制下來了那現在門燒之後呢會不會又再燒起來呢應該不會現在的消防跟環保單位的人都在現場看不過委員的建議我覺得很好就是說天災的後續這個戰事場的管理上面我們確實可以再精進例如"},{"start":10090.027,"end":10116.865,"text":"引進跟一般掩埋場一樣的這些設施譬如說紅外線的感應如果溫度有增加的話那這部分可以做一些應該是要要求暫置的時候就要趕快把這個相關的管理上放上去因為你要預防這樣的事情發生嘛你發生之後你去公佈這些數據然後你要再去檢測有毒物對附近的居民是都已經是很大的傷害謝謝委員的建議這個我們真的可以來"},{"start":10117.505,"end":10146.585,"text":"對再來就是你們越世界的垃圾我也想要請問一下其實當時這個11月5號本席也在委員會執行行政執行行政院核定的112年到117年你們預防環保犯罪暨智慧環保打造綠色幸福家園計劃你們說提報終止那另外要提一個強化全國廢棄物流向的遠端數位管理智慧決策計劃那舊的計劃被你們終止新的計劃現在行政院還沒有核定對不對部長"},{"start":10147.866,"end":10171.562,"text":"那個預算已經有了但是行政院還沒有核定對嘛行政院還沒有核定嘛那個明年的預算已經編進去但我真的是比較想要請問一下這兩個計畫到底有什麼差別哪一個新的計畫真的比較厲害嗎剛剛你們有講到有關於所謂智慧維尼的系統喔這些這兩個計畫之間到底為什麼你要廢掉原本的然後要用新的是技術更新還是你更有把握可以追蹤的好"},{"start":10172.574,"end":10193.246,"text":"是原計劃我們把它精進成後來非法去資源端監控計劃那這計劃可以包含前計劃所以我們就把前計劃經費不要重複不要跌闖價值我們就把它處理掉那這個自衛委理計劃目前我們預算有匡列"},{"start":10194.247,"end":10215.195,"text":"希望大院來執行剛剛署長你是有說現在已經有一些智慧維理的使用對不對是 我們先做先導型的示範計畫從我們自己的業務會裡面去做處理所以其實目前你們示範覺得效果很好很好那因為世界這個事情是等一下沒有放到智慧維理因為點數不夠所以沒放在那個地方"},{"start":10216.135,"end":10239.541,"text":"對 所以我就想問嘛發生這種事情誰會想到會有人把它倒在這個觀光景點那你們這樣未來要佈置點的時候這種地方你要怎麼涵蓋到會 會把它涵蓋到會把它涵蓋進去全國有2000點所以未來2000點你會把它全部的佈建進去是 依照我們分析的那個情道的熱點跟可能的區域去做佈設"},{"start":10241.251,"end":10261.826,"text":"甚至也跟委員報告未來的所有的CCTV監視器經過如果我們的廢清法修正之後我們也會跟警政單位借接所以以後這些東西都跑不掉所以你確定以後用這樣子的管理方式就不會再有人亂倒垃圾都可以掌握得到因為現在其實要的確有一點時間差那未來的話這個時間差可以降到最少"},{"start":10262.586,"end":10282.626,"text":"部長我覺得這個真的是很嚴重的問題最近好幾次環境部我想這都是現在大家很關注的議題到處有這種所謂的廢棄屋亂清道的部分我要請本席要請你們趕快不要再等了因為你也說過任何一個破壞環境都是罪嘛好不好好再來我想要再問"},{"start":10284.989,"end":10298.517,"text":"就是有關於光電環評修法的部分因為其實上個禮拜前個禮拜大院已經通過修法了嘛對不對可是我今天看到你們的報告你們寫的"},{"start":10299.898,"end":10325.271,"text":"好像跟修法的內容是不一樣的今天委員會發的資料你們說山坡地這個裝置容量兩萬千瓦以上或面積15公頃以上者均需實施環評這是代表你們不想要認大院修過的法嗎部長我手上我手上這一本啊今天委員會發的報告你們的環境部的報告第18頁第18頁"},{"start":10329.253,"end":10346.298,"text":"這是代表還是你們的報告沒有更新是超到還是說你們不想要認是這個意思嗎第18頁今天的報告是18頁上面第二行好像版本不一樣"},{"start":10347.772,"end":10360.177,"text":"可能版本不一樣我們我們應該是我們會遵照大院來進行會遵照大院因為你們你們今天這個印出來的報告可能你們後來是還有更新還是怎麼樣所以舊的報告是沒有寫到是不是"},{"start":10365.851,"end":10387.95,"text":"跟委員報告 我們現在報告是有更新在17月我們已經有把大院通過11月14號三讀通過的內容放進去我今天這份 我這個報告是我早上來委員會的時候拿的可是我們手上的是有更新過的我們確實已經把我來簽到的時候拿到這個好 所以你們有改你們會遵照大院的這個修法對不對是好 OK 因為我要告訴部長其實這真的"},{"start":10389.637,"end":10404.336,"text":"讓民怨四起啊本席在民間的時候大家也聽到說什麼山野光電板水野光電板海野光電板都覺得說環境部到底在做什麼我知道你前面有講過你們希望討論所以但是本席要告訴你們的意思就是說在"},{"start":10404.776,"end":10424.001,"text":"能源轉型的過程當中就是發生一大堆的弊案重生而且過去環境部多次的說要修研要去重新檢討環評的標準才導致現在我們要去不得不透過修法在母法上面給你們這樣子的一個更上位的法令要求你們嚴格去執行"},{"start":10425.041,"end":10447.797,"text":"所以部長這部分希望你們可以尊重大院的決議我也期待就是說大院在決定那個量子的時候因為委員我們40幾個在執法裡面現在全部拉到母法之後這變成一個很特別的一個特例那黃國昌召委他其實在大院的時候也說那個數值可以來大家來討論可是我很遺憾的那個沒有經過太多的討論"},{"start":10448.277,"end":10469.103,"text":"部長因為你們研議研議又再研議研議了非常的久本席在這裡聽到多次的質詢你們在研議的過程中就開始有很多的業者不斷的要增大加大他的開發這不得不逼著大院必須要儘速的修法要求環境部好好的落實不要再破壞我們的國土尤其在敏感區域謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":10474.642,"end":10491.674,"text":"有請趙偉還有部長接下來請楊耀委員來做詢問謝謝趙偉 趙偉我請一下彭部長來請部長"},{"start":10495.579,"end":10512.484,"text":"我們這次非洲豬瘟引起很多關於處於去化的討論很多縣市可能將來也都會禁止處於養豬避免有一些傳染的風險"},{"start":10516.705,"end":10538.878,"text":"台灣每天的廚餘大概有超過六成是靠餵養組織來處理是 現在 對那經過這一次的事情以後呢可能有一大部分都是直接進入焚化爐可是呢這個不只會對焚化爐的設備造成影響也會產生到外"},{"start":10540.802,"end":10569.552,"text":"戴奧鑫等等的空污的問題所以有幾個問題請教部長就是在這一次的事件中有專家提出日本相關的處理廚餘養豬的方式是比較先進的那他們也沒有非洲豬瘟的問題主要是因為先將廚餘區域集中處理而且乾燥飼料化我們未來有沒有可能"},{"start":10570.744,"end":10573.599,"text":"考慮統一由中央政府集中處"},{"start":10575.925,"end":10601.503,"text":"全程來管理珍珠中心避免個別業者違規的情形謝謝委員的這個問題其實這個部分我們其實跟農業部一直不斷的在討論這個問題至於說這個珍珠中心的共同珍珠這個是農業部在主政當然我們在溝通過程當中因為上禮拜有一群委員跟我們的團隊也有到日本去看"},{"start":10601.983,"end":10627.655,"text":"那非常贊同委員你說的這個意見那共同珍珠中心是有它的必要性存在但是那個農業部他們有特別提到說臺灣的這個國情都覺得說自己組的會比較好別人組的可能到我這邊是不是可以得到一個認證所以這個部分我們有聽到多方的意見都在辯論當中所以現在我們希望這個禮拜可以有一個更完整的一個答案出來"},{"start":10629.057,"end":10649.57,"text":"對 當然沒有一個政策是可以十全十美不過假如說個別徵組就是有的時候多數的守法合規的業者有時候會被受到波及個別徵組的部分個別徵組我之前也有講過就是要怎麼去徵"},{"start":10650.57,"end":10660.178,"text":"要怎麼去監控這個也是有問題所以假如說全國統一處理的珍珠中心可能"},{"start":10662.743,"end":10691.12,"text":"環境部跟農業部有一個共同的政策方向甄主中心是屬於農業部在主政我們是處理這個廚餘委員你剛才說到的現在如果完全禁的話當然大概有將近50%的廚餘會進到焚化爐的確會造成我們現在很大的壓力我們是希望是不是有一個落日有一個時間點然後把各個縣市的廚餘的處理量能夠拉起來所以這個部分方案還在討論當中"},{"start":10692.766,"end":10712.336,"text":"都需要有一個落日的時間所以在這段時間裡面呢環境部這邊要怎麼降低需要燃燒的廚餘看是先乾燥處理還是怎麼樣減少空氣汙染"},{"start":10715.837,"end":10727.391,"text":"對我們現在只能說第一個是一定要瀝水把水瀝掉瀝乾然後他在燒的時候然後那個焚化爐的操作他一定要溫度不能降低所以他有一定的操作的一個流程"},{"start":10727.895,"end":10750.791,"text":"那目前我們看那個各個焚化爐操作是沒有什麼太大問題而且我們也找過專家還有焚化爐專家去討論大概可以10%的廚餘在焚化爐運作都沒有不會產生大躍興的問題但是我們還是會未來這一個月會叫他們再額外再測一次大躍興可是假如只有一層可以進入焚化爐那其他的呢"},{"start":10751.611,"end":10766.444,"text":"我現在大概有四成八進到焚化爐其他的話可能是堆肥或是生殖能等等反正就是必須要再就是假如說"},{"start":10768.865,"end":10792.271,"text":"廚餘的部分要進入焚化爐先前的把關還是很重要環境部可能要去落實這樣子的一個政策方向碳費的繳納明年就要上路我想要請問一下部長看看環境部這邊到底準備好了沒有因為我們"},{"start":10792.911,"end":10821.011,"text":"大概明年五月就要實質繳納對不對對嘛那依照今年的排放量申請來申報繳納攤費呢大概環境部這邊規範的收費對象有有兩百八十一間公司五百個工廠他們申報了嘛"},{"start":10821.876,"end":10842.404,"text":"報告委員現在最新的數字是465個廠252家公司然後大概現在已經有430個廠提出自主減量計畫也就是說他不想要繳300塊他只要繳50或100那剩下大概35個廠他可能就在那個邊緣他只要繳一點點錢而已所以基本上呢目前我們來看的話"},{"start":10843.164,"end":10871.681,"text":"因為他自己要提自主減碳計畫他就要符合我們國家減碳的目標所以我是覺得碳費的制度在這次來說的話因為這樣的誘因反而是蠻不錯的一個結果部長我先說因為你來環境部也一年半了其實我對你的政策落實的能力是很肯定的所以也希望我們就是因為碳費的繳納"},{"start":10873.202,"end":10902.082,"text":"就是已經要實施了嘛所以有一些相關的問題可以先行做規劃的要規劃出來那大概第一年預估可以收入多少大概40億左右40億好那40億呢有40億的收入那這一些呢就是這一些錢必須要挹注在溫室氣體管理的基金對不對對然後專款專用"},{"start":10903.102,"end":10922.692,"text":"你們現在有沒有就是以後收入要支出的方向有部長就利用這個機會把它詳細的說一下大概有20億是最主要是要集中在減碳例如說有些減碳的技術或是說各個"},{"start":10924.093,"end":10946.975,"text":"不管任何的單位不管是中央地方的單位假設提出一個可以有效的減碳的量我們就可以直接來補助給他研發的計畫大概20億左右雖然不多但是很有用那第二個是有一些綠色的這個項目可以一些銀行的融資我們可以補貼這個利息大概有幾億的附近那調適我們也編列了大概3到5億左右"},{"start":10947.875,"end":10960.985,"text":"調適因為氣候變態調適會越來越嚴重那目前這個部分會由我們這邊主動來編列那其他的部分呢包含了這個國際合作還有甚至我們環境部氣候署他本身的運作所以大概呢total大概是40億左右的預算"},{"start":10962.745,"end":10989.801,"text":"所以就是大概是用來補助綠色融資然後地方政府的相關的就是他一定要提出一個實際上可以減碳的量那我們可以來卓越給他補助地方政府提還是一般的企業也可以我們還是以事業為主以事業為主 就是公司行號"},{"start":10991.022,"end":11020.442,"text":"是不是鼓勵那個例如說他要減碳的他要繳的碳費他如果要減得更多我們就鼓勵補助給他一些希望他更積極的去減那這個的審核跟把關一定要很小心因為畢竟不是假如是給地方政府有的時候比較不會有產生很多問題那直接補助給民間企業的話這個部分可能相關的機制"},{"start":11021.277,"end":11045.636,"text":"也要趕快去做一定的規劃我還是希望我們碳費收了還是可以用在減碳的部分剛剛部長的說明我覺得大概就是這樣子的方向應該是很不錯的謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":11062.797,"end":11089.837,"text":"請劉建國委員發言部長你先休息 先坐一下你辛苦了 又感冒所以聽我講幾句好不好讓你緩衝一下我沒有像其他委員都沒有這樣處理尤其楊委員都是這個樣子你知道立法院有八個委員會那我們這個委員會正確名稱叫什麼嗎"},{"start":11092.827,"end":11117.841,"text":"你不用回答我 你知道就點頭 不知道就搖頭很長喔 對不對那其他委員會為什麼這麼精簡經濟部 國發會在隸屬經濟委員會就經濟兩個字 對不對那交通部也轄管很多嘛 就叫交通委員會然後司法法制多兩個字交易文化多兩個字除此之外 財政這樣那為什麼我們這個委員會"},{"start":11119.782,"end":11133.548,"text":"的這個整個證明這麼長你知道主要原因嗎 不知道那主席是不知道 不知道他的簽名叫做社會福利基於衛生環境委員會"},{"start":11134.648,"end":11155.926,"text":"那我必須要特別跟部長講說台灣就是要打造一個社會福利一個多樣然後非常非常興盛的一個福利國家我想這是一個打造的目標但是我們把打造的目標放在最前面後面最重要最重要的強化的這樣的一個重中之重還是在環境"},{"start":11157.478,"end":11176.812,"text":"所以當環境好了環境好了 很多事情可以迎刃而解環境不好了 衛生醫療的支出會增加社會福利就會遭受到排擠所以我是用這樣來詮釋我覺得環境部是在整個這個未緩委員會來講是重中之重"},{"start":11177.912,"end":11200.507,"text":"然後看到部長這麼積極的因應了相關的一些作為參與在其他的國家這樣的一個代表台灣爭取很多的這樣的一個訊息的流通還有國家的整個地位的這樣的一個提升然後打造這個整個全世界的對環境保護的這樣的議題的這樣的一個"},{"start":11202.408,"end":11225.297,"text":"一個展現我想這個對台灣都是一個非常正向的幫助但是我們要在國外講的非常理直氣壯那在台灣的環境保護就真的要做到實質的有一定程度的這樣的一個進步跟進展我想這是無庸置疑的那我現在回歸到我今天要特別強調的主題請部長看一下頭影片"},{"start":11227.505,"end":11252.536,"text":"這個蘇丹隆 一個蘇丹隆 尤其是紅色真的很恐怖陰影籠罩全台 史丹魯環真的是名存實亡為什麼要這麼講 兩年 這兩年台灣民眾持續籠罩在蘇丹隆的恐懼之下去年是辣椒粉用吃的 今年是連化妝品都有 用抹的當初因為平安的事件 所以行政院提出了史丹魯環的構想並在105年成立了讀畫局"},{"start":11253.696,"end":11263.327,"text":"作為食安環的第一環112年更改制為環境部化學物質管理署同時也制定毒性及關注化學物質管理法"},{"start":11264.383,"end":11293.763,"text":"那這一切就是要落實源頭的管控這個法律當時琢磨很深的除了主席之外還有我然後我們至今你有沒有自己貪白我們如今這個蘇丹瓦的原料不斷從國外被進口並且用在食品化妝品上每次都是食藥署查驗到這也很奇怪那環境部在這個地方的功能是發生什麼事情這是第一件事情"},{"start":11294.723,"end":11321.224,"text":"那這一次出問題的是紅色護方原料紅色護方原料是從新加坡進口那進口商現場超過5批 5批中就有3批驗出大量的這個蘇灘紅的這個紅色素 蘇灘紅色素分別是在今年1月 2月 10月然後這些原料提供給我們台灣的14家業者12家的化妝品業者 次成產品在台灣販售"},{"start":11323.889,"end":11338.386,"text":"環境部的化學水質是源頭的管理無庸置疑但是在蘇灘紅的辣椒粉還是這次試驗中我覺得化學水的源頭管理似乎已經把只有 似乎只有是把蘇灘紅列為毒化物"},{"start":11340.322,"end":11363.299,"text":"那就這樣而已 今天沒有其他具體的作為單純進口的蘇丹農或列管的化學物質 毒化物流向是很好追蹤 去管控的嘛 對不對但是齁 但是這是基本功啊你目前的蘇丹農 辣椒農 或是這次付放的原料在國外已經混合調製好的產品 輸入國內等於是毫無監管 毫無門檻"},{"start":11365.721,"end":11384.43,"text":"這是很奇怪一件事情嘛然後 去年蘇丹農是有人檢舉喔沒有人檢舉也不知道要讓民眾吃多久那這次是因為國際間傳出有化妝品參入蘇丹農的這色素原料的訊息才促使食藥署動起來才發現這個蘇丹農化妝品已經在台灣內部販售了是這個樣子喔"},{"start":11388.649,"end":11412.228,"text":"所以我這邊就要提醒說環境部必須要面對這樣的一個課題如果在邊境就可以發現這些劣管的化學或毒化物的原料甚至於這個是複方的部分只要有它被我們劣管了只要它被我們關注的這個相關的化學物品基本上哪怕它是複方比例多少我們都應該列為追蹤"},{"start":11414.568,"end":11442.789,"text":"不然這件事情會層出不窮所以我是希望我們要確保這些不會再流到所謂的食品廠或是藥裝廠甚至會不會有另外什麼樣的產業我都不清楚所以我在本週三有特別在這個變更議程再加一個有關於此次蘇丹農化專品的專案報告我要請環境部當天一定要提出如何強化源頭管理的監導報告"},{"start":11443.956,"end":11451.189,"text":"可以吧 可以啦齁好 署長你要不要 署長啦 署長 你是部長部長你請坐 我沒請你起來你 署長你要講兩句嗎你講好才講 時間要夠"},{"start":11457.611,"end":11478.664,"text":"你講不好 我就告訴你兩句而已來 第一句謝謝 謝謝委員那這個部分我們禮拜三會跟大家來做報告那簡單跟各位報告一下基本上化學物質的管理在我們台灣市各個部門依照各自的法令去管理所以像比如說這上面講的這個蘇丹紅4號"},{"start":11481.266,"end":11502.092,"text":"目前是依化妝品衛生管理法去做後面的一個監督跟管理這個是大家分工合作去進行的對 大家分工合作去進行但是我剛剛提到的問題基本上好像他這個副方進來的時候你們也沒有辦法去掌握也沒有辦法去管控也不曉得他的流向"},{"start":11505.188,"end":11513.786,"text":"這個源頭管理是不是有很大的盲點還是當時我們在修電網的過程裡面有遺漏什麼地方是不是要牽涉到神安火的修正了"},{"start":11514.927,"end":11533.699,"text":"這個部分我們會再跟食藥署來做討論目前在化學署這邊的規定就是1ppm以上比如以這個來講它今天檢測出來的只有1.3ppm它的濃度其實是低於我們在讀管法你剛剛講1ppm 現在講1.3ppm不是 我說1%1%"},{"start":11536.541,"end":11561.739,"text":"我們管的是1%化妝品這一邊的現在檢測出來是1.3ppm遠低於我們現在在獨管法裡面所管的那個濃度所以目前的整個在安健護的權責裡面是由食藥署依照化妝品衛生管理法的規定要去做後面的追蹤但是這個直接從邊境進口進來的時候"},{"start":11565.498,"end":11585.569,"text":"食藥署就必須要去做檢測進來的時候財政部海關這邊跟食藥署這邊就要去做一些申報勾結的一個這一些的一個管理這個資料都會在化學雲端裡面看得到目前是這樣化學雲端就是在這一個範圍裡面沒有功能"},{"start":11587.046,"end":11598.204,"text":"沒有任何的分配上的責任這件事目前的情形是在食藥署那如果高於1%以上那我們這邊就會要求"},{"start":11600.489,"end":11615.247,"text":"進口或者是輸入的或者使用的都要去取得核可還要申報相關的資料這些資料我們都可以進行相關的勾結但是現在到這裡有個問題嘛你說一定要高於1%你們才會就是連結到你們對不對"},{"start":11617.95,"end":11632.767,"text":"這個業者他可能要進口業者他之前會規避這樣的一個比例嘛他如果每次這樣規避比例他永遠就是沒有辦法被你們所查緝到嘛可是他可以依照目前食藥署可以依照化妝品管理法"},{"start":11633.408,"end":11648.651,"text":"的規定去做後面的勾擊跟後面的追蹤所以你現在提醒我就是說食藥署從頭到尾就是沒有很積極的然後很認真的然後去做勾擊然後去接到這樣的訊息的時候他才願意主動去查驗才有辦法去把這些抓出來是不是這樣"},{"start":11649.251,"end":11670.298,"text":"其實 你那天 禮拜三的時候你就必須要這樣講清楚喔我不是要叫你們活熊吐槽啦因為食安團太重要了每一個部位有一定的功能那原種管理基本上我一直會認定是在我們環境部嘛那但是剛剛聽署長這麼講還是有這樣的一個一個任期上的一個分門別列的責任的歸屬嘛"},{"start":11671.238,"end":11697.75,"text":"這個我要尊重啊 對不對那我們是要討論這樣的一個制度是不是有檢討的空間還是我要討論說這個制度定在這個地方那是有執行單位況持他的職務才導致每每都要接收到檢舉還是什麼訊息他們才有辦法在邊境裡面去查緝大法這不對啊 這我們當時七年修了八次的食安法那顯然在立法上就有很大的疏失啊我們也必須要檢討啊"},{"start":11700.473,"end":11724.723,"text":"對不對跟委員報告那個食藥署是依照產品的後端去做整個一個查驗結果查驗到化妝品裡面有這一些蘇丹紅4號所以後面就啟動了相關的預防性的下架的這樣的一個措施對 他是成品之後他去查驗嘛他是接到這樣的國際間的訊息嘛他才去做這個動作嘛"},{"start":11725.703,"end":11744.057,"text":"那我現在強調的是這些東西這些原料進口商把這些有檢出蘇蘭榮4號的紅色方原料進口進來在邊境進來的時候到底誰應該負起更大的責任嗎我要強調是這樣啊是你環境部還是你食藥署"},{"start":11746.676,"end":11760.714,"text":"雖然現在沒辦法打呼我沒關係我們星期三請你把相關的一些因應作為跟其他報告就提出來我們好好來討論好不好好謝謝因為時間到了請回不然你還是坐著我再講一下主席給我一點時間因為我請長都給你很久時間"},{"start":11764.318,"end":11784.111,"text":"在部長任內 台灣連續兩年被這個看守德國公佈嘛這個氣候變遷表現指標CCPI的為後端班我知道部長很不服氣啦剛剛在詢詢答覆的相關的這些委員的時候都有特別提到那本來是要還是要請部長看一下這一個看守德國的數據他是會說話的"},{"start":11786.913,"end":11801.943,"text":"2024、2025到至今2026我們台灣是從61名又上升到59名嘛 對不對表示台灣仍然在進步只是這個進步齁 有一點比較不如預期嘛 好但是台灣的民視緩慢在進步同時還有一個數據 也請部長看一下2024是36.94 2025是34.892026會不會來到這個33.64"},{"start":11813.955,"end":11825.871,"text":"這個媽媽氣候行動聯盟的徐理事長特別提出平衡方式跟過去一樣但多數國家的分數都在下降這會不會顯示整體全球對氣候變遷因應的動力正在減弱"},{"start":11827.239,"end":11848.019,"text":"這是一件事情那這些數據其實真正正在發出警訊全球對抗氣候變遷的態度意思是不是正在隨著政治環境的改變有鬆懈或是緩慢腳步台灣是不是也如此那本期預測明年看守德國給出來的平穩及民智可能都會更差"},{"start":11849.198,"end":11863.459,"text":"那部長知道 知道什麼原因嗎我在這邊提供 今天有很多委員特別追尋你啦上上週 這個兩個禮拜前啦 就14日我們立法院已經通過 三讀通過針對太陽能的環評法在沒有經過本委員會的一個討論下"},{"start":11864.64,"end":11881.391,"text":"也沒有公聽會 那草案直接近乎二讀那在野黨當然也人數啦 優勢就通過了嘛這個現有國有地 大致上就這樣太安人的新環評法 國有地公有地不論規模皆需環評 大致上這樣嘛山坡水面型 5公頃以上100萬人以上需環評 不分地別"},{"start":11882.552,"end":11905.192,"text":"這應該是40公尺或是40百萬瓦以上灰屋頂光電皆需環屏應該是沒有錯然後報導就出來了嘛葉哲替代工協會陳棟喊出台灣能源轉型大挫敗更由葉哲表示我就不需要再講了產業如為政治鬥爭下的這樣的如同棄嬰但是我現在"},{"start":11907.074,"end":11933.639,"text":"在部長這個國家氣候變遷對策委員會中的一個報告積極設定減碳性目標這不定不可嘛如果依照目前這個狀況環境部明年要如果跟看守德國解釋台灣正朝向這個綠能轉型我們可以逐步在2030 2035達成減煤20% 9%同時再生能源分別可以提高到30至36%"},{"start":11935.783,"end":11961.821,"text":"這你寫的嗎 這你報告的嗎這都沒辦法我們也跟經濟部討論 我跟人員所討論有一個版我很擔心因為這個法過了之後整個再生能源的產業會重挫然後這個目標很有可能都會達不到所以委員你提到的明年的優先真的是我們現在的優先"},{"start":11963.376,"end":11979.213,"text":"再看兩則新聞 不只如此我們要跟國際進行啊部長剛剛從巴拉圭回來而已嘛韓國綠電佔比以橫耍台灣業者講什麼話就不再講了啦他們的日照時數都沒有比我們台灣多咧他們現在的佔比橫耍台灣"},{"start":11980.334,"end":12009.204,"text":"這是很衝突跟矛盾的啦齁另外一個是他們的總統齁李在民總統確實百日燃燃能源路線轉向綠電總統有意他們李總統有意暫緩新核電廠能源交由環境部掌管齁啊大致上是這樣講強調他們強調這個能源政策啦應集中在同一部位以加快解決問題的速度啦齁另外一個透過再生能源再生能源滿足路易增長的電力需求是唯一可行的解決方案"},{"start":12010.124,"end":12034.986,"text":"這個我大致上截取重點這是他們這個新任的李總統特別明確的公開的這樣做這個表達那我現在要請教部長目前問題已經不是在看走德國的公佈數據到底公不公平是本席本來就希望能迎頭趕上韓國這樣人員轉型的先進國家我們台灣現在人用超車是不是未來連車尾燈都看不到"},{"start":12036.147,"end":12049.64,"text":"還有 面對這樣的狀況 環境部要如何因應新法的產業衝擊是要用環評法的程序 還是你要降低暗場的環評壓力還是有相關的配套措施"},{"start":12052.606,"end":12068.915,"text":"繼續來努力這個綠能然後台積電他未來可能還有很多很多產業未來面對的綠能的這些情況的這樣的一個占比這樣的檢探這個很多面向都必須要再做討論還有經濟部現在已經規劃要加強屋頂太陽能那環境部"},{"start":12072.837,"end":12089.922,"text":"修法已經過了一週多了我現在沒有看到我們環境部有實質的一個處理方向要不要簡單說明一下我們現在其實經濟部有要求說要跟我們來討論說因應這樣的一個新的修法我們的衝擊有多大是不是要提出一些想法出來那目前我們還在研商當中"},{"start":12090.962,"end":12104.121,"text":"那我是認為是依照目前的這樣的做法的確對再生能源的一個發展會對臺灣造成很大的影響那這個就影響到我們未來的產業他在淨零的目標裡面達不到國家的要求這個後面的影響是非常大的"},{"start":12105.233,"end":12119.512,"text":"好 我還是希望部長盡快做相關的一些然後具體的書面資料就給我們做參考最後 我在為什麼這次在總質詢我選擇經濟委員會我特別跟卓院長講對不起 把他降級了卓院長講 廚餘"},{"start":12123.237,"end":12152.24,"text":"處理的事情不能再拖了一個台塑從原有幫於縣政府10噸拉到30噸都可以做了台灣沒有任何的理由中央政府更沒有任何的藉口在講說最後的這些處理養豬的方式不能解決中央承擔起這樣的責任啦要快速的因應啦擴大可以處理量能轉化為有機質的回料的地方"},{"start":12153.291,"end":12174.457,"text":"一瞬間一個步驟然後快速的趕快的去做溝通去做積極的怎樣的一個資源到位就可以馬上解決掉了我們不能再花生一次我們中央也責無旁貸啊是不能再拖了拜託部長 謝謝我們這個禮拜 這禮拜會希望有一個結果謝謝 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝劉建國委員"},{"start":12185.427,"end":12186.609,"text":"請盧縣議委員發言主席有請彭部長委員好"},{"start":12201.67,"end":12226.429,"text":"我們先看一下這次我們的排名剛剛趙委有提到不過還是要再講一下我們目前是在66個排名裡面的第59也就是說倒數我們只不過贏了幾個國家我們的分數確實是很低有大概幾個面向就是說碳排放 資源再利用還有能源使用的方式還有政策面我一直在想部長你有沒有想過要如何前進"},{"start":12228.406,"end":12256.097,"text":"包委我們有自己前進的目標啦但是這個評估的這個方法他是就三個本地的這個專家委員我沒有批評他們但是就是說其實整個制度設計如果更好的話我們應該不是這樣的分數那我再 下幾個質詢就是他針對這些分數可以增加的部分我希望你能夠放在心裡面因為我覺得這個報告裡面25頁真正提到原住民的部分那是在第18頁的其中的只有"},{"start":12257.317,"end":12280.777,"text":"一行而已所以我总觉得国家很像对原住民都不够重视那我们就看我们之前说希望能够建立参与机制这些那我们目前都没有看到这个部分那我们就来看看公正转型然后就是我们的温室气体管理基金这个部分希望我们有一个代表在里面可是看了这个专家学者或者说民间团体"},{"start":12281.477,"end":12301.352,"text":"或多沒有看到 反而看到一些你們對人權 兒福青年這些就是注重他們的一些諮詢可是關於原住民族的代表裡面一個都沒有那我希望說如果現在是還沒有的話是不是有可能在近幾年裡面設置我們的管理基金裡面能夠有原住民族代表"},{"start":12302.589,"end":12318.267,"text":"包委 這個原住民代表是在我們公正轉型裡面那我們的未來的溫室氣體管理基金呢的確有一塊我們會跟國發會合作因為公正轉型是國發會在負責的我們會把這個原住民的意見把它納入更多那我們現在都看到你們在辦企業就是說在"},{"start":12319.768,"end":12348.728,"text":"算是说它的多少的碳税或什么可是我们没有看到你们看到原住民的土地可以帮忙吸收多少税那我一直在看原住民55个乡你看哪个部落的气候脆弱度最高土石流的风险最大其实这些在制定碳费分配比例的前置作业我觉得应该要多努力不然我们想把分数提前的话我们刚刚看到一个政策面的一个执行其实这个其实都是在一个评比里面所以我就在想"},{"start":12349.769,"end":12361.93,"text":"有沒有可能看到原住民主土地自然碳會盤點的相關報告我們需要知道涉及原住民主土地可以貢獻多少碳會我覺得這個部分有沒有在進行"},{"start":12362.421,"end":12391.4,"text":"有 我們這個跟那個園民會還有跟農業部有在盤點這些的量有多少正在進行當中OK 那我之前有看到7月8號的我們的溫室氣體基金的那個管理的那個會議記錄看到那個未來的45億就是大概有40億是你說11.6是在政策18億是在縣市的一些減碳的一個計畫4億大概在調適2億在公正轉型那5分的話是在企業的一些融資或者是利息的一些補貼"},{"start":12392.801,"end":12409.709,"text":"可是你知道這次的COP30他們在熱帶森林基金這個部分他明確指定20%是要提供給原住民的一個基金的使用就是回饋他們對真正對森林的一些貢獻度所以我希望這個"},{"start":12410.749,"end":12428.165,"text":"以後問世氣體基金你看這個剛才我們所講的這些大概五個項目裡面完全沒有針對原住民部分的一個所謂的貢獻度所以為什麼我們一直強調說我們的這個管理基金裡面應該要有原住民然後我們的環評委員應該要有原住民因為我們"},{"start":12429.318,"end":12458.027,"text":"我們整個在看台灣的這個地圖裡面我們的森林還有我們原住民居住的範圍確確實實是佔了我們國土的比例非常大可是你的報告裡面25頁只提到一行然後你們在做這些基金的會議的時候預測的時候完全沒有這些考量在裡面我是希望你身為部長應該要把這些我們國際已經在重視的這個方向應該要把它放在裡面"},{"start":12458.902,"end":12467.803,"text":"好 謝謝委員 委員你的建議很好那我們會例如說你剛才講到森林攤會跟原民的部分我們會跟農業部跟原民會我們有一個平臺啦我們會來解決這個問題"},{"start":12468.717,"end":12494.631,"text":"对了 为了确保公正转型跟落实科学的治理本席还是希望环境不能够补齐的基础数据优先完成原住民土地生态服务价值跟冲击的评估在完成上述评估跟建立利益共享机制之前针对涉及原住民主土地的自主减量计划我觉得应该要暂缓核定以避免不可逆的权益损害"},{"start":12498.848,"end":12509.328,"text":"這個委員我們來研究一下但是我們認為是說在公正轉型裡面把原住民的權益放進去這個我們會把它放進去而且我們有便利一部分的經費來做這個事情"},{"start":12510.387,"end":12531.352,"text":"我另外一個少部分的時間跟你說上次我們有去過我們獅子鄉的西瓜園的種植還是在證明說我們屏東對環境的一些污染的一些落差第一次在你剛就任的時候我有提到馬家鄉的倉營的問題就是隔壁的畜牧場"},{"start":12532.112,"end":12546.417,"text":"那現在是種植西瓜園的部分也都是以蒼蠅為伍的這個環境那我是覺得到目前為止還沒有看到屏東縣政府很正向的去處理這個問題明明我們看到60%以上的那個"},{"start":12547.837,"end":12570.416,"text":"種植面積是非法種植的也就是說真正合理有租約權的是大概30幾%而已那我是覺得如果說縣政府遲遲不對這些事情來解決的話我覺得中央是不是應該適度的去關心或是說為什麼這個進度這麼慢因為民眾已經跟倡議維護60年了他們說他們能不能有一個喘息的空間"},{"start":12571.817,"end":12598.835,"text":"如果說他們30幾%是合法的那至少這個60幾%停止種植的話至少這個蒼蠅的數量會大大減少很多好 這個我們再來跟那個屏東縣環保局再來討論對 那我也希望說我們之前追在追的那個馬家鄉的這個法灣村的還有現在返山溪 豐港溪這個部分部落族人的生活的範圍裡面所受到的這些"},{"start":12599.755,"end":12625.796,"text":"蒼蠅的衝擊我是覺得身為部長你看看我們現在一直在說我們國家很進步然後現在的我們的很像是可以讓世人去挖墓像看的可是如果你讓一個遊客或者觀光客外國的人去那邊的話你會真的會你會覺得說這個這個環境根本就不像在台灣很像在菲律賓或是在印尼好 這個委員我會來加油我會來再盯緊好 那我們就繼續追蹤這些以上的問題謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":12630.033,"end":12631.715,"text":"謝謝盧縣議委員接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":12682.493,"end":12699.384,"text":"主席有請部長部長好這次這個花蓮縣馬太安溪淹社福這個因為潰壩一流造成"},{"start":12700.761,"end":12719.936,"text":"光復鄉鳳林鎮還有萬隆鄉的很多的一個社區部落嚴重的災情不僅僅是社區部落還包括包含很多的這個農田而這個跟環境部有關的部分以我們這個光復鄉的這個清潔隊也是這個損毀包含這個"},{"start":12728.595,"end":12753.717,"text":"它的垃圾場也都被沖毀被沖了之後當然就到這個相關的這些家屋或者是這些農田所以家屋的部分很多的志工這個去把它挖走了那現在留在的留在那個比較後面的這些比較"},{"start":12755.117,"end":12766.005,"text":"燕买比较多的这些房子或者是农田所以都是废弃物都是很多的废弃物我们看这个房子"},{"start":12767.847,"end":12784.181,"text":"很多的國軍或是志工或是相關的單位包括你們的環保單位把它清除了但是還留了很多的這些廢土而廢土裡面都有廢棄物所以這個部分就是這樣所以"},{"start":12787.355,"end":12813.572,"text":"这个按照废弃物清理法第八条的规定一因为天然灾害这个的情势自有自现有废弃物储存回收清除处理设施相关的这些污染环境就绝对会有污染环境相关的这些人体健康也都会有产生危害质疑中央主管机关应会同"},{"start":12814.412,"end":12833.418,"text":"中央墓地事業主管機關及有關機關來去處理當然中央主管機關廢棄物清理法的主管機關是環境部那中央墓地事業主管機關那可能就會涉及到以現在的這些廢土廢棄物的話大概"},{"start":12834.454,"end":12859.734,"text":"大部分在家屋附近或者是農田所以可能會跟農業部也有關係所以這個部分要請環境部要積極的處理我們剛看的這個照片是現在還存在的鄉親一直在問什麼時候挖走 什麼時候挖走"},{"start":12860.99,"end":12875.131,"text":"是這樣的一個情形所以這個部分這個環境部有什麼樣的報告委員那個我簡單回顧一下我們環境部是負責整個光復箱或是其他鳳林箱幾個這個廢棄物跟這個泥土"},{"start":12876.532,"end":12901.775,"text":"這個挖起來之後到這個站置場那個地方那這是我們在處理那如果這個垃圾這個掩埋場垃圾飄到農田上面那目前我們在這個前進指揮所協調所裡面規劃是農業部在主政那還有一個呢一些砂石掩蓋的這個農田也是農業部在主政的那我們分工是很明確那這個部分是由農業部來協助來清除完成這個部分我還是要回到這個條文"},{"start":12903.737,"end":12927.948,"text":"所以你們要去中央主管機關要去會同中央目的事業主管機關所以是不是能夠趕快協調他們趕快把他移走啊因為這個網路一直在傳啊什麼時候清掉啊什麼時候清掉什麼時候挖走啊是不是因為還沒有經費他如果是在農田上面的話那這個農業部在主政"},{"start":12929.154,"end":12949.886,"text":"農業部那如果說是一般的這樣算不算農田所以變成推來推去沒有推沒有推這個應該就是在農田如果是廢就是說房屋旁邊光復鄉野埋場飄出去農田的附近的那個田上面都是農田因為法律是說你要會同所以你們去協調好不好有協調好了因為"},{"start":12952.959,"end":12965.227,"text":"這個打錯了 就你們的經費啊特別預算裡面的辦理災後沙土混雜廢棄物辦理沙土混雜廢棄物所以這個部分"},{"start":12967.011,"end":12986.262,"text":"對所以他畢竟還是留到布加歐附近或者是這個農田這按照法律的話是你們要要去會同嗎所以趕快去協調可以嗎可以可以既然你們在這個整個災害應變的時候是"},{"start":12988.025,"end":13015.487,"text":"協調所裡面有去做分工但是人民不清楚所以裡面趕快去協調就是委員我再報告一下就是說在協調所的當中我們那個指揮官紀連城指揮官有在跟我們協調例如說在光復掩埋場飄出來的垃圾到農田附近那這個就是農業部主政然後如果土砂把這個農田掩蓋的大概600公頃剛剛那個大概10公頃另外一個是600公頃把那個農田蓋住的話"},{"start":13016.267,"end":13028.161,"text":"這兩個都是農業部在主政好 那個趕快去協調 好不好可以 好 謝謝好 謝謝政委 謝謝部長接下來請謝榮介委員來做詢問"},{"start":13044.73,"end":13046.051,"text":"你看這個影片喔這是兩個小時以前大概10點鐘的時候現場的影片台南市"},{"start":13070.546,"end":13092.151,"text":"那當時颱風來的時候這已經燒了幾天了那剛剛你們署長說全部控制住了早上在台南市議會消防局長說還要三天那你認為我們是應該再犧牲三天的空屋"},{"start":13094.205,"end":13114.85,"text":"還是現在把它撲滅那為什麼說要不要撲滅因為撲滅以後燃燒不完全還要再一次清潤早上市政府給議員的答覆是說原本的估計的清潤費用大概3到5億那現在把它燒光就省下了3到5億"},{"start":13116.314,"end":13140.657,"text":"你的看法如何不可能 這個是不可以用燒的這個是違反空污法的 不可以的你知道這裡面有混雜一些當時因為颱風破不得已也有一些石棉瓦有一些阿魯米有一些塑膠天花板還有營建廢棄物加上一些木頭廢棄就是樹木倒塌的全部都堆置在這裡"},{"start":13142.233,"end":13167.146,"text":"那以你的角度 中央的角度 如何來看待這 我跟你講 這是任何一個縣市都可能包括花蓮堆置的 都有可能會發生喔台南市是說 他們有請保全喔 在現場顧啦而且這個里長就之前一個多月前就已經有燒過 沒穩起來所以大家在懷疑 是不是調桿要燒的"},{"start":13169.315,"end":13187.034,"text":"你的看法如何 包委員不會啦這個這個燒東西這個影響到這個空污是不允許的絕對不可能是政府故意燒的那你認為現在就是只測到剩下消防隊只剩下一組就繼續有文他說這個深層"},{"start":13189.841,"end":13204.669,"text":"很深層啊繼續溫大概還要溫三天我也不要因為你剛才說的我有去這個廠看過他們環保局有分例如說實棉區然後這個營建的區然後樹木區都有分一重一重的"},{"start":13205.129,"end":13229.597,"text":"那我所了解的這燒的這塊是樹木因為台南的這個樹所以樹木可以燒不可以燒啊也不可以燒這個我相信可能是那你認為要不要建議台南市現在即刻把它撲滅那剩下該清運的還是清運該進紅化爐還是進紅化爐有沒有這種建議這個目前我們有編定這個特別條例的預算裡面他們大概有"},{"start":13230.377,"end":13256.25,"text":"3到5億左右 就是處理這一塊我知道嘛 所以現在3到5億省下來了嘛不可能省下來了 不可能燒成灰也要處理啊燒成灰那量就沒那麼多嘛不可能 這個還是要去處理好 那你建議是讓它繼續完全燃燒不可以 這個會影響到因為最近的這個天氣沒有下雨那是不是部長要做個建議啦"},{"start":13257.27,"end":13267.857,"text":"因為剛剛也台南市議會也剛執行結束嘛這是現場的影片這就是兩個小時以前的影片你如何建議"},{"start":13271.343,"end":13290.437,"text":"報告委員 台南為了撲滅這顆火已經協調自來水公司裝設臨時的消防水準所以它的效率變比較高我們正式建議它要把它撲滅正式建議所以是現在正式建議從開始我們態度就是應該儘速把它撲滅"},{"start":13296.681,"end":13302.944,"text":"所以市政府是不聽你的建議這很認真 因為這個量實在是十幾萬噸我知道十幾萬噸 可以撲滅不撲滅的話因為為什麼鄉親會這樣質疑因為不是第一次"},{"start":13312.563,"end":13330.78,"text":"那在這邊大家有提出警告好大家都很認真現在的現況就是這樣現在的現況就是這樣所以部長還是建議即刻撲滅要撲滅剩下我們再來善後處理你的補助款不會減少"},{"start":13332.609,"end":13343.977,"text":"不會吧不會 看因為已經燒掉60%了所以扣掉60%的補助款後面還是有灰還有各種的 不會全額還是按照原本的3到5億補助款"},{"start":13345.796,"end":13372.09,"text":"是不是我們還是依照那個實際花包的數額所以就不是這個3到5億的就是以到時候清運的實際金額這個不會影響到台南的財政等等之類的這個跟財政無所謂我們要的是一個態度那環境部現在正式建議台南市政府應該要即刻強力的"},{"start":13372.87,"end":13385.805,"text":"把這個火源撲滅 是不是是好 謝謝好 謝謝謝委員 謝謝部長接下來請圖權紀委做詢問"},{"start":13398.602,"end":13426.413,"text":"好 謝謝主席請我們彭部長部長辛苦了部長好彭部長辛苦了感冒還要接受那麼多質詢部長 請問一下我們經濟部有說因為現在綠能的發展沒有達標那現在又因為他認為沒有達標的原因他要來修這個環評法"},{"start":13428.277,"end":13443.889,"text":"那我們來了解一下我們現在根據經濟部統計再生能源發電的結構我們看從105年到今年生殖能及廢棄物它的發電從28.3%降到12%可是當然太陽光電從8.7%增加到41.7%風力發電也從11.4%增加到28.8%"},{"start":13456.698,"end":13472.854,"text":"那從這個數據來看我們看起來再生能源發電的結構是不平衡的那當然就是針對光電跟風電它是一直在成長可是我們不了解說為什麼生殖能"},{"start":13473.795,"end":13495.015,"text":"廢棄物發電這個部分它是降低的那而且在行政院在2017年就有推出多元化垃圾處理計畫那當初也有規劃剩餘生殖能發電它那時候有講最少要有三座生殖能的發電廠可是目前喔"},{"start":13496.161,"end":13506.25,"text":"我們看到只有台中跟桃園兩座所以針對這部分應該再生能源發電應該針對生殖能電廠這部分是不是應該要來加強"},{"start":13507.893,"end":13530.986,"text":"對 謝謝委員 這個其實這次的這個無溫的這個廚餘的處理就是我們其實一直要鼓勵這個生殖能但是我們所知道像桃園桃園那個案子他們把這個焚化爐弄在一起而且是用一個中心的方式讓大家可以理解其實這個生殖能的中心因為附近的居民很容易把它變成一個零幣設施所以推動起來很好但是就會常常遇到一些阻礙"},{"start":13532.734,"end":13541.689,"text":"可是照這樣來看其實生食能處理中心你看它又可以處理垃圾然後桃園這個又可以處理"},{"start":13542.583,"end":13571.031,"text":"熟廚魚熟廚魚他又因為用豔陽處理還可以發電那所以針對這部分應該炒著這部分我們行政院當初就有規劃多元化垃圾處理這一部分那目標應該要去達到應該像這個又可以處理垃圾又可以處理廚魚然後又可以發電我們應該要炒這一方面去發展才對報告委員因為目前我所知道的是南投他已經有招標了然後另外一個是"},{"start":13571.912,"end":13578.283,"text":"台南也願意要蓋 高雄也願意要蓋所以其實目前很多的縣市他願意來蓋這些東西來解決廚藝的問題所以我們是鼓勵的"},{"start":13579.958,"end":13605.307,"text":"對啊 所以因為我們看我們今天提這個意思是說經濟部針對這個發電的部分因為他現在要修這個環評法我覺得說重點應該不能只通通放在光電跟風電上面那再生能源發電有很多的方式像我們剛剛提的生殖能源中心就是一個很好處理垃圾處理魚又可以發電那這部分"},{"start":13606.027,"end":13620.6,"text":"因為環評法的主管單位是環境部所以部長是不是應該有什麼建議其實這一次如果光電修的話我是覺得如果這個能夠在討論的過程當中有一些科學的討論甚至在本委員會"},{"start":13621.781,"end":13647.143,"text":"很好的辯論會更好但是這樣提了之後就會造成說整個再生能源因為我們現在變成全世界再生能源環評最嚴格的一個國家這個到底是不是很好的一個做法會不會影響到後續再生能源的發展這個都要觀察那我們等待這個經濟部能源署他們去算出來因為他們有口頭跟我說他們這個淨零的目標2030 2035恐怕都達不到他們有特別提醒我"},{"start":13647.603,"end":13672.618,"text":"那我還沒有接到他們的報告所以未來我們會跟他們再討論所以如果因應這個修法之後的衝擊我認為在再生能源以太陽能來說的話一定會非常大的所以我說今天提出這個部分就是說希望說我們再生能源真的不是只有光電只有風電像我們提這個生殖能中心發電廠就是一個非常好的方式而且加上"},{"start":13673.298,"end":13696.578,"text":"現在剛好有非洲豬瘟的問題那它又可以處理垃圾又可以處理廚餘所以這個我覺得環境部也可以朝著這一方面提出一個好的建議我們其實為了因應豬瘟的廚餘未來有可能會不為豬我們要整個去化的能量要把它拉起來所以的確是有很多的縣市有告訴我們說他們有這個需求那也在這個規劃當中了"},{"start":13698.399,"end":13726.488,"text":"好 因為這個我們上個禮拜就是為了這個部分去考察我們桃園觀音生殖能處理中心那還有一個就是我們虹橋科技因為虹橋科技我才發現它是得過我們經濟部國家產業創新獎而且它好像是我們唯一能夠把這個廚餘完整回收處理它液體的部分處理完以後可以做豬的飼料"},{"start":13727.228,"end":13748.553,"text":"固體的部分可以做成我們有機肥料而且等於說廚餘它可以百分之百的做這循環經濟 百分之百的處理這部分部長了解嗎了解 我們很鼓勵這樣的堆肥廠能夠興建不過其實這個有些縣市想要蓋但是也會遇到附近居民的抗爭所以這個溝通還是一個大問題對 可是我們發現"},{"start":13752.134,"end":13767.249,"text":"它占地小 處理量能大你看我們那去我們才了解那齊大立委說怎麼有這麼好的技術它才800平方公尺一天可以處理100噸以上的廚餘甚至他說其實可以處理更多"},{"start":13768.15,"end":13787.02,"text":"所以像这么好的技术我们也发现连很多其他的国外的业者通通都来台湾来这边来考察所以我说奇怪台湾自己有这么好的技术怎么不去好好推广可以完善的把这个厨艺全部完整的处理"},{"start":13787.935,"end":13816.485,"text":"有 這個部分很多的縣市都願意來興建這樣的措施已經在進行當中了那我們是希望他們一兩年內可以把這個量能夠起來不是只有靠焚化而已好 所以我是建議不要到時候台灣的技術結果國外的推廣做得比我們好結果我們台灣好的技術都沒有好好去把它好好的去發揮尤其剛好我說現在剛好這個非洲是非洲豬瘟的問題應該可以好好的來研議可以 這個我們會來做"},{"start":13818.188,"end":13845.496,"text":"好 那還有現在針對我們IMO的部分那據我們了解我們收取碳費的中央政府機關是環境部那在規定氣候變遷因應法中也有規定那我們國際海事組織IMO現在早就有計畫要收碳費那我們想說IMO這個通過之後"},{"start":13846.932,"end":13874.68,"text":"收取碳費 我們交通部 航港局預計也有要跟進那以後這個費用是交通部收還是環境部來收報告委員 這個還沒有研議因為IMO我知道川普是公開反對的所以這個因為美國是最大的航運的一個進出口的國家所以這件事情還沒有我們部會還沒有開始在討論當中我們會看未來的進展"},{"start":13875.909,"end":13880.59,"text":"對啊 因為據我們了解這個碳費收取是環境部"},{"start":13882.219,"end":13910.588,"text":"沒有 這是歐盟的碳稅歐盟的CBAN 歐盟的碳關稅所以這個制度還沒有像CBAN這麼的完善所以都還在討論當中還沒有這個結果我們會留下注意所以針對目前我們當然我們碳費收取還是環境部所以IMO的部分還沒有做實際的討論還沒有 還沒有到那個階段那如果它這個通過的話到底如果這個通過會有可能是交通部來收這個錢嗎"},{"start":13912.122,"end":13934.411,"text":"這個還沒有討論例如說好無舉例船到臺灣他也會排放空污在臺灣海峽那我們是不是以後要收空污費這個我們也在討論這個話題當中或是說他進到這個我們的港他用到我們的岸電那我們是要收他一些費用所以這個部分都還在我們會看這個IMO他未來的發展他的這個法規法制化的這個程度而定"},{"start":13935.151,"end":13959.42,"text":"因為我們看這個船舶它是屬於碳排高的部分所以到時候它是高碳排的部分可能對於我們整個空污也會很大的影響那當然就像部長講的你說因為現在還不確定所以還沒有進入討論還沒有 好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來請林淑雯委員來做詢問"},{"start":13967.055,"end":13991.56,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請我們這個彭部長部長今天很多的立委質詢到關於台南後壁丹拉斯風災之後的這個烏樹林戰事場的火災這種狀況戰事場無人看守然後你們的那個廢木堆這個廢木材啦還有"},{"start":13992.643,"end":14017.159,"text":"還有這個什麼還有土石還有垃圾垃圾還有石棉瓦石棉瓦還有營建廢棄物對四種四種堆積如山現在大火燒了幾座山來來土石不會燒嘛垃圾那邊燒起來了還有廢木材也燒起來了石棉瓦也燒起來了石棉瓦不會燒石棉瓦不會燒好"},{"start":14018.888,"end":14033.086,"text":"那你們剛剛這樣子一直聽下來大家講說火災的原因歸咎於早氣自然天氣乾燥還有其他原因嗎應該就是這些原因"},{"start":14033.977,"end":14057.495,"text":"講了這些好像是不可抗力的自然現象但是我今天要跟你講這個就是從科學的角度跟我一直跟你講過的災害廢棄物佔置場管理的問題來講從科學的角度來看這完全不是不可抗力的自然現象這絕對是政府管理失當的結果"},{"start":14059.689,"end":14077.711,"text":"災後大家都知道災後的災害廢棄物這個佔滯特別是風災之後的斷肢殘業受潮加劇的堆製大家都知道這樣的堆製最後一定會有劇烈的微生物作用台灣目前的做法你們的做法"},{"start":14078.251,"end":14097.205,"text":"就是沒有任何的管理我跟你質詢很久講災後廢棄物嘛你們說你們要去討論嗎可是到現在你們也沒有任何的作業的指導出來你們現在都政府都中央沒有任何的指導指引然後地方政府沒有任何的管理就是盡量堆"},{"start":14097.865,"end":14117.01,"text":"堆得越高越好因為平面空間有限找得到的容納場地太少所以盡量堆 堆到盡量塞 盡量滿可是你們完全忽略了物理跟化學的極限這簡直是在各個地方堆置大型的生化炸彈為什麼呢"},{"start":14118.61,"end":14142.989,"text":"你們就一直堆可是你知道耗氧發酵跟豔氧發酵並存你上面的堆製在表層是耗氧這個分解產生熱量可是在底層的因為缺氧進行了豔氧分解一定勢必會產生早氣再來講蓄熱效應當堆製的高度過高你們這個堆製最高幾米這個應該有到十幾米左右"},{"start":14146.986,"end":14164.845,"text":"20米 20米所以在這裡是堆到四層樓 五層 六層樓 七層樓高堆那麼高 它內部的熱量無法散發溫度會持續飆升 蓄熱效應第三 自然點"},{"start":14166.426,"end":14190.034,"text":"當內部的溫度超過80度C甚至更高而且甲烷的濃度達高到爆炸的下陷一旦接觸到空氣或因為塌陷產生火花就會瞬間的引爆就一定勢必會燒起來所以我們你會覺得說就是這樣子堆啊保庭有感覺就是這樣就這樣子堆嗎 是嗎"},{"start":14192.867,"end":14206.917,"text":"這個包委員我有去看過一些國家的最近去看的其實他們都有一定的處理的做法而且我也觀察到不會臭不會臭然後而且他復土的程序都做得很完整我知道災禍廢棄物是很臨時的"},{"start":14209.259,"end":14225.931,"text":"但是我們從制度面整個政府從過去到現在從來沒有在災害的基礎上學到教訓不斷的累積教訓然後得到一套指引和方法我現在跟你講日本環境省發布的災害廢棄物的對策指引我也跟你講過了"},{"start":14227.092,"end":14237.639,"text":"災害廢棄物的對策指針針對臨時堆置場人家制定了非常細緻的技術規範這個指引的核心精神像在這個災害廢棄物他就講不是怎麼堆而他的核心精神就是要防止它怎麼防止它燒起來"},{"start":14248.425,"end":14267.693,"text":"所以也只去研究日本環境省的技術文件台灣 你們都沒有去研究台灣政府 我跟你們講了幾個月了也沒有去看 也沒有研究阿蘇丁你有看嗎 你有研究嗎台灣跟日本避開我們缺少的三大關鍵管理技術是什麼"},{"start":14269.4,"end":14294.185,"text":"你有去看那份指引嗎 你就不知道 不知道我就跟你講啊在這個指引上就跟你講啊 叫你去看 要看嗎委員我們現在有內部在座討論討論了什麼就是我們會訂定我們的災害護照我現在說台灣缺少的跟日本這個管理指引缺少了三大關鍵的管理技術是什麼 你有沒有想法"},{"start":14297.037,"end":14320.971,"text":"呃 請委員指導你都沒有啦 你說太多就沒記住了委員你上次跟我說了之後 我有交代他們我們要開始去研議這個東西如果有去研議這麼長久了不看就不看啊我告訴你 我直接告訴你日本的指引明確的指出為了防止火災 佔置場的堆置必須遵守物理極限不能夠因為垃圾多就無限的堆高"},{"start":14321.972,"end":14347.566,"text":"他們的精神就是怎麼防止它燒起來那你就要去檢視第一個高度的限制日本可燃性廢棄物的堆置高度嚴格限制在幾公尺以下 你知道嗎蘇丁你知道嗎 柏丁不知道這是藍面的蘇丁你知道日本嚴格限制在堆置幾公尺以下嗎我們一般的堆置是在五公尺日本就是說五公尺"},{"start":14348.208,"end":14371.4,"text":"如果沒有經過破碎的修繭樹枝甚至建議要低到3公尺理想值是2公尺科學的理由是因為超過5公尺堆體內部會發熱速度將大於表面的散熱速度導致熱量急劇的升高累積蓄熱那台灣的現況你們這個烏樹林占智場"},{"start":14374.901,"end":14391.527,"text":"20米20公尺六七層樓高新峰也埋藏的堆積也是在這種高度的熱力學上注定必然一定會發生自然這個不是意外不是不可抗拒的不是是必然的"},{"start":14393.267,"end":14406.696,"text":"這是管理的問題啊第二個這個物理的極限第二個面積跟體積的極限日本規範單一一塊區塊的底面積不得超過200平方公尺大概60幾平"},{"start":14408.357,"end":14429.746,"text":"而且單一堆體的體積要控制在2000立方公尺以內原因是因為限制燃燒的量體確保火災萬一真的發生了消防的水柱要可以立刻噴灑到堆體的中心而且怪手可以在短時間內將火源挖出你看你們這幾天剛才洩露的那些硬品觸目驚心"},{"start":14436.704,"end":14462.178,"text":"台灣的現象就是整片連綿不斷的垃圾長城一旦燒起來根本沒有辦法斷絕火路沒有 你們毫無規範這個絕對不是不可抗拒的自然現象這個是人為不當的管理因為政府毫無管理的機制 毫無管理"},{"start":14463.078,"end":14469.723,"text":"第三 這個在物理的極限裡面還有一個叫距離原則日本規範一堆和一堆之間要保留兩公尺以上的防火區隔理由就是防止輻射熱導致火勢跳燒並作為緊急時重機具的作業通道和消防車的行進路線而台灣呢 你看這個台南火災堆置 堆置那麼滿"},{"start":14490.339,"end":14506.231,"text":"消防車只能在遠遠的噴水也噴不到中心 堆點的中心然後那麼高也噴不到下面怪手也沒辦法進去開闢防火巷這個完全缺乏隔離距離的這個後果所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":14508.719,"end":14515.663,"text":"這個還是物理上的限制日本還怎麼做主動式的監測和排氣的機制戰智場喔平平都是災害廢棄物的戰智場而已喔他們在氣體排放在早氣的監測和排放他們怎麼規定呢日本規定在堆體的中間要先預埋塞多孔管像瓦斯透氣管"},{"start":14534.774,"end":14543.132,"text":"讓內部的甲烷和發酵的熱氣能夠導出避免累積達到這個爆炸的下限我們都沒辦法 什麼沒辦法"},{"start":14546.581,"end":14575.78,"text":"因為沒有規範中央沒有指引地方也不用做溫度的監測日本必須在管理單位必須定期測量堆體深層的溫度他的指引特別提到堆體深層的溫度往往比氣溫滯後一兩個月才達到高峰所以他會到10月才會反映到8月的熱度他會往後遞延"},{"start":14576.821,"end":14600.051,"text":"所以必須要長期監測如果測得到一氧化碳的濃度超過10ppmv就視為是內部悶燒的危險訊號我們台灣做什麼 什麼都沒做然後等到冒煙燒起來 聞到臭味然後再來處理所以台灣這個方法有弄好嗎完全 完全落後太多"},{"start":14601.178,"end":14627.685,"text":"那他們日本在於這個預防火災的熱跟氣上面他還有第三個做法他們一旦監測到溫度異常的升高就馬上要出動重機具去翻堆將內部熱料翻出散熱而且他們指引建議數個禮拜至少要翻堆一次不可以長期靜置你這個地方要靜置多久你剛剛講明年才會解決對吧"},{"start":14630.426,"end":14640.998,"text":"這樣子也沒有翻堆你對照日本就知道說我們真的是落後太多更不要講我上一次的質詢已經講過的他們這個指引是在未以籌謀防範還沒發生的時候各個地方就要預先選址"},{"start":14649.628,"end":14674.065,"text":"日本要求市挺村在平時就必須依照這個災害廢棄物的處理計畫選定候選的用地包括要遠離住宅區 地址要穩固具備防止地下水污染設施蛤 蛤 阿爛咧 咱現在只有具備防止污染地下水設施的設備嗎有布設防水布嗎 有沒有"},{"start":14679.068,"end":14695.772,"text":"前端要分類 進入戰制場以前必須區分成金屬 電氣 電池 瓦斯罐和可燃廢氣物這種都要分開因為你電池 瓦斯罐 廢氣的電氣可能都會引燃周邊的木材或塑膠"},{"start":14697.253,"end":14722.685,"text":"我們其實都混在一起啦雖然你們說這個石棉一堆廢棄土石方一堆這比較容易看得到但垃圾廢棄樹枝尤其是垃圾垃圾上面有沒有電池有沒有不知道有沒有分類沒有所以把這種潛在的火種電池啦打火機啦跟燃料枯枝啦泡棉啦垃圾打包在一起風險就是這麼高"},{"start":14724.252,"end":14748.658,"text":"所以我們在這裡我真的是語重心長全台灣一共有幾處的災害廢棄物佔據場正在運作部長大概災害廢棄物災害廢棄物現在台南有幾座幾座台南有三座吧三座蘇町自己都不知道 寶町真的不知道花蓮有兩座"},{"start":14751.747,"end":14752.889,"text":"這一年來風災後 新啟用的戰製廠有幾處"},{"start":14758.137,"end":14767.019,"text":"也不知道 你看什麼都不知道那個您說的其實上次前兩次質詢我都有聽在這個裡面我問這個最簡單 你書長要知道戰智場有幾位你也不知道災害廢棄物現在戰智正在運作的有幾個場子你不知道書長你很漏氣這關書長有夠急嗎我好像很不講話 還沒也沒好"},{"start":14784.093,"end":14801.929,"text":"目前對製的物品品的類別比例怎麼用就是說純風災的這個倒木還是有多少民生垃圾還是有多少的營建土石方的廢棄物比例是怎麼樣每一個站置場比例是怎麼樣比例要怎麼樣才能知道說這個整個預防火燒起來啊"},{"start":14811.227,"end":14830.72,"text":"有多少場子具備了防止地下水污染的阻隔設施有沒有 全部都沒有 完全都沒有 是不是全部都沒有有多少場子有這個溫度監測的機制全部都沒有 完全都沒有 暫置的都沒有不是暫置的就有嗎"},{"start":14835.122,"end":14856.677,"text":"那現在日本環境省明確規定規範高度戰制的高度5公尺間隔2公尺你有沒有辦法好這樣講好了有沒有辦法在最短的時間裡面你們可以制定出一個台灣版的災害廢棄物戰制場的防災安全指引有沒有可能一個月"},{"start":14863.976,"end":14893.539,"text":"包委員 那個因為我們是進行中我們是不是兩個月之內把它訂出來好 災害廢棄物 戰事場 防災安全指引那要把下列的項目列為強制查核項目第一堆置高度的上限5公尺強制防火間隔距離2公尺定期每週深層溫度監測如果地方政府違反指引導致火災中央是否有相對應的懲處或補助扣減的機制也要去研議 可以嗎"},{"start":14894.445,"end":14922.247,"text":"可以好 接下來跟部長講說因為你說我諮詢了你們去看看了以後沒有訂出來也是不好所以災害廢棄物我們的處理絕對不能夠繼續抱著且戰且走的心態應該要去積極的參考日本的災害廢棄物的對策指引而且長期要研議要去擬定災害廢棄物戰制設置和管理的技術規範"},{"start":14923.908,"end":14940.382,"text":"不能夠再這樣子永遠萬年的以不變應萬變就讓它稍稍的就剛好先廢棄不用處理不用再進焚化爐直接入不用再勞煩焚化爐了啦直接入天焚燒啦我也懷疑說你是不是天天要這樣讓它稍稍的都不用再改變是不是這樣比較方便是不是這樣"},{"start":14948.903,"end":14955.875,"text":"把廢棄物 堆置到這個等排隊進焚化爐還要花一年的時間這張來修 修一半以上都不用進焚化爐這樣是不是比較方便"},{"start":14960.694,"end":14970.282,"text":"不會啦 不會這樣做我哪有這種感覺的感覺沒有啦沒有啦希望沒有啦我們會來改進啦好 我說的長期災害廢棄物戰車場設置和管理技術規格半年內你出來兩個月內災害廢棄物戰車場的防災安全指引兩個月內訂出來"},{"start":14981.511,"end":15004.953,"text":"因為我知道日本常常遇到大型的例如說地震的災害廢棄物的處理我們會再來評估說實際上去了解說他們到底怎麼做的因為有時候日本寫的跟他們不是只有地震型的他們也有很多複合式的他們複合式的而我們剛好恰巧今年未來極端氣候下未來不知道"},{"start":15005.794,"end":15027.685,"text":"就剛好這麼嚴重這麼多然後需要這麼多的戰智場而我們的戰智場連一個防水這個不要污染地下水的這個基本設施都沒有更不要講其他的這個災害還為了戰智引起其他更大的環境災害這樣子是不對的所以兩個月跟六個月啊好 謝謝接下來請武力法院來做詢問"},{"start":15043.443,"end":15063.54,"text":"謝謝主席 再次有請部長部長去年您上任以來我透過您的臉書實際上我也有跟過你一起去關心我們原鄉的資源回收廠"},{"start":15065.321,"end":15081.248,"text":"其中在1月12號也就是今年的年初因為我自己是來自馬家鄉因為我們鄉公所我們從這個照片中您也有親自去您可以看得到他們有幾個問題第一個就是"},{"start":15082.208,"end":15104.551,"text":"他們的這些資源回收的垃圾爆量那您當天有看到 有兩層樓那麼高那另外呢 這個也是原鄉普遍的一個現象就是我們要等資源回收車很久原因是什麼 因為幅員遼闊所以經常收收收 哇 滿了"},{"start":15106.172,"end":15129.039,"text":"他又要再回去再過來所以也變成大家在等候這個垃圾車的時間就是不確定性很高因為我們有很獨特的一個地理環境的一些劣勢所以很多的原鄉都很期待能夠有垃圾車能夠有資源回收車"},{"start":15130.279,"end":15147.144,"text":"可是部長我當然也要謝謝您因為我上個月10月27號我才剛去台東的鹽坪鄉因為當時前幾年他們有爭取想要有個好的資源回收場但是它的規模我們都說是環保園區因為會給他們作業廠房"},{"start":15150.865,"end":15154.566,"text":"然後呢也會有洗車台設備的機房有地棒天車吊車等等他們非常的高興我想很多的原鄉應該都很需要那在這裡可是我看到我特別來所知110年到114年原鄉申請垃圾車跟核定的狀況您看看"},{"start":15175.25,"end":15203.816,"text":"僅核定率是39% 4成不到如果以今年來看的話他的核定率更是一成不到7%我之所以會來這個地方質詢是因為地方有陳情那我之所以又來這個地方質詢是因為他們的陳情一直看不到結果好的結果所以我想請教一下部長您的看法"},{"start":15207.028,"end":15228.858,"text":"包委員 我們垃圾車確實需求的比較多我們的經費比較少一點所以它有一定的條件譬如說它要15年以上然後20萬公里等等之類的要求這些會優先把它做太亂這個就是重點了"},{"start":15232.399,"end":15248.565,"text":"為什麼 我剛剛一直強調原鄉有它獨特的地理環境條件不一樣服務員遼闊 那個車子要跑我以前諮詢有講過 很陡有時候那個廚餘桶還會流支出來"},{"start":15250.211,"end":15263.505,"text":"所以我才會講說要針對原鄉不同的環境去訂定不同的條件讓我們原鄉的這個垃圾的問題可以被解決所以到底有沒有這樣的思維我們應該要有這樣的思維啊"},{"start":15266.485,"end":15284.395,"text":"報告委員 這一個原鄉車子消磨也很恐怖對 原鄉跟濱海地區我們另訂有比較宽的規定就是說它如果是相當陡的或者是濱海地區易腐蝕的這個部分可以縮短它的年限那什麼時候可以看到這個"},{"start":15285.49,"end":15308.587,"text":"不過這個我們如果有這種狀況我們會去現場請同仁看一下是不是他操作或保養的狀況我們去輔導如果真的這車子不能再使用我們會給他們做一個補助署長110年到114年核定率39%今年度核定率7%所以我不希望一拖再拖"},{"start":15310.089,"end":15328.232,"text":"這個問題要正視 因為我們是為國家 我們是為地球我希望 如果這是政府很重要的政策目標不夠錢就編錢啊博巴委員 因為那個明年財化法過後這個我們的 明年的這個預算幾乎是零了"},{"start":15329.108,"end":15355.112,"text":"所以部長要把我們的困難要講出來我們要請我們的行政院支持那這個部分其實是人民會成為我們的底氣我們背後支持的力量我希望我們很快的可以看到那我也希望大概兩週後可以給我回覆意見好不好因為這今年的大概就原來的量比較少"},{"start":15355.532,"end":15374.067,"text":"那明年的這個財化法過後這個垃圾的處理都是屬於地方的事務所以我們在這個編列預算裡面明年真的沒有這樣的預算了我們就是要想辦法啊因為很重要啊我們的政府如果因為很重要的一件事就說沒有錢"},{"start":15376.128,"end":15402.095,"text":"這個老百姓聽不下去所以我還是希望我們可以來檢討可以來討論也給我一個回覆好嗎那不好意思主席我其實有兩題另外一個問題就關於廚餘那因為時間的關係我也快速的來問當然我們知道廚餘禁止養豬的政策我們不知道會不會成為長期的方向那我其實是很想聽聽看你可不可以簡單的回答"},{"start":15402.735,"end":15426.523,"text":"現在我們這個禮拜我們跟農業部已經溝通好一個意見大概有好幾個方案這個禮拜會內部再協商然後在行政院的部分再協商如果我們希望趕快看這禮拜或下禮拜趕快對外宣布因為有太多的不一樣的利害團體給我們一些想法例如說雖然說大家覺得說禁養廚藝是一個趨勢可是也有一些黑豬的業者說"},{"start":15427.583,"end":15444.729,"text":"一定要有然後因為是從戰略的考量因為廚餘畢竟它是一個資源循環那有的可以有共同徵組那有的是覺得說是不是還有一些更好的方式能夠來處理所以現在每個縣市都不一樣所以我們現在正在彙整當中那我其實"},{"start":15446.48,"end":15473.838,"text":"覺得無論如何從源頭減量絕對是重要的所以呢我們也看到有兩個養豬大縣雲林屏東他們地方政府是有在補助那個廚餘機啦但是我想講的是說你看這個雲林補助上限兩成屏東補助上限四成我常常覺得被詬病政府就是補助的思維就是很喜歡說補助幾成幾成"},{"start":15476.34,"end":15501.328,"text":"可是你這樣子補助的時候一點意義都沒有因為只有中產階級他才會去做這件事他沒有辦法被普遍的接受其實很多人很想但是你這樣的補助模式他就做不到那況且我們說如果中央可以來全面的來協助這個很重要為什麼因為非洲豬瘟的發生他不是那個豬場啊"},{"start":15502.828,"end":15526.318,"text":"我們是大家一同的都是受災戶啊這個對我們整個國家的整體的影響是很嚴重的我們並不是說在哪一個縣哪一個豬場發生所以我覺得這個中央來做我是今天是希望部長因為時間的關係我是很希望啦如果有一些事情真的是攸關全國人民的"},{"start":15526.778,"end":15530.001,"text":"經濟也好 安全也好我覺得就應該要提出這樣的一個政策思維我們怎麼樣全民來落實另外我們最近原鄉那個糞尿的那個造成那個什麼西瓜蚊子滿天飛所以我特別想要請教就是現在大家都在幫忙找方法"},{"start":15548.298,"end":15569.727,"text":"過去改變人類世界蜜蜂農業產寶寶人類的紡織業現在說黑水盟也會改變我們未來的世界所以我相信部長您一定在這個方面應該了解很多而且可以成為一個循環經濟那它也可以讓我們可以養雞 養蛋"},{"start":15572.788,"end":15591.275,"text":"我知道的是你們很支持但是我都沒有看到相關的預算而且這個黑水盟他被使用的管署才其他裡面的1.9%所以黑水盟竟然已經成為主要的政策目標方向我不知道你們未來有沒有想要提出積極的計畫"},{"start":15592.615,"end":15600.579,"text":"我們目前有一個計畫在整合支持當中那部長我為我原鄉爭取一個啦我是希望說我們原鄉給我們有沒有可能給我們一個事辦計畫我們原鄉很適合養雞呀也很適合需要這樣的一個廚餘的那個處理方式可不可以選定一個地方給我們原鄉一個事辦計畫嘛以後全國可以來觀摩"},{"start":15616.246,"end":15633.046,"text":"OK 好 我們請我們徐安署來規劃一下這樣的內容好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請陳培委員陳培委員陳培委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在請戴思寶委員戴思寶委員戴思寶委員不在請葉圓芝委員"},{"start":15645.051,"end":15672.082,"text":"主席好 麻煩請環境部長來 部長葉維好部長好 我們先來關心一下高雄垃圾山事情因為那一個廠商原本是民進黨里長後來被開除黨籍就是連民進黨都覺得他做了一些很違反黨域的事情那他是4年有13次違規的堆置然後他堆置的廢棄物還引發兩次火災但是他卻可以一直營業"},{"start":15673.146,"end":15685.231,"text":"然後他被裁罰了總共六七萬居然十萬塊錢賴皮不繳我問一下當然部長你會說這是高雄市政府的事情但是你作為一個最高的環境的主管機關你覺得看到這樣的事情你覺得會不會很離譜"},{"start":15686.612,"end":15714.563,"text":"這當然離譜啊這個但是我們還是要依法行政啦然後我會再了解一下他為什麼不叫你覺得很離譜嘛然後依法行政就代表說現在的法好像已經沒有辦法符合現狀了嘛那中央就應該從制度性的做一些改變啦我們有要修廢清法好那現在喔這一個案件大家覺得誇張的是他的模式是這樣啦就是他租了一個鐵皮屋廠房嘛然後當作垃圾的站置區然後趁大家不注意的時候又把垃圾偷盜到越視界嘛是這樣嘛"},{"start":15715.373,"end":15726.957,"text":"那這其實也凸顯一個管理上的問題其實這應該是全國性的問題就是說他們去申請那個執照很容易然後申請執照然後這個不換的違規又說沒有關係可以繼續的營業"},{"start":15728.959,"end":15756.634,"text":"然後罰單案可以不繳然後所以還可以隨便找什麼轉運站然後隨便找一個轉運站就可以堆置垃圾然後再找機會去偷盜然後他去挑全國各縣市哪個縣市管理比較鬆當然你會說那高雄管理比較鬆這不是中央的問題那高雄鬆不鬆那就是高雄的問題但是在制度上一定是可以改變否則的話為什麼會出現這個情況所以您說要修廢清法修了之後就可以改善嗎"},{"start":15757.154,"end":15782.868,"text":"第一個是加重刑責第二個是我們會透過智慧維力的方式明年開始會啟動像這樣的話會抓得更快現在等於是說要有一個時間差要去看那對於這種那對於這個清運業者 清除業者因為他申請執照很容易嘛然後他到底這些垃圾去哪裡感覺上好像一開始沒有辦法防避嘛你現在都是事後嘛就是他偷盜之後嘛我現在講的是在事先的管理面"},{"start":15783.744,"end":15797.903,"text":"管裡面的話當然就要對這些清除業者要加強他的這個管控那你剛才講過他的罰則並沒有很好的不是罰則 罰則是事後啦我是講說因為其實本來制度上就有一些事前的管制比如說GPS啊或者是各種"},{"start":15798.993,"end":15822.66,"text":"做法但現在看起來看起來沒有用所以我覺得環境部是不是可以討論一下就這些清除業者的管制上不能讓他這樣子隨便偷到因為現在包含了最近的廚餘也需要已清的業者來清理那當然已清的業者只有清除業者我們必須也要再重新一些思考能夠能不能更有效的管理這個是第一個問題就是我覺得不能都推給高雄"},{"start":15823.4,"end":15849.924,"text":"因為當然高雄最近問題很多這不是我們今天在立法院要講啦但是中央應該是要站在一個制度面看看跟地方討論一下說現在的管理到底出了什麼問題明明機制在那邊就是會有那麼多不但漏洞不過還是就是想做壞事的人他就偷雞摸狗做這些事情這是我們一定要但是我剛舉的那個案例你都覺得很誇張啊十三次違規然後兩次火災然後還可以繼續營業這真的很奇怪啦"},{"start":15850.504,"end":15878.632,"text":"那第二就是台南現在垃圾山火災的事情相信部長你也都很清楚嘛剛剛很多人在問那我首先我有兩個問題第一個這個事情因為火災的地方是一個原本的軍營嘛是環保局借來非製風災的佔置物然後引發火災那事後裁罰的話如果找不到到底是誰縱火的話搞不好自燃還是怎麼樣我不知道你有掌握火災發生原因嗎目前這還在調查中那到時候如果"},{"start":15880.848,"end":15910.405,"text":"找不到調查找不到火災的發生原因的話他就是處罰行為就是處罰就是可以規則的行為人就是台南市環保局啊環保局要自己開罰自己那求援兼裁判那這個部分環境部要怎麼去監督呢這個以前有太多這樣的案例了要自己罰自己那自己罰自己當然就罰最輕啊因為台南市那個環保局以前在110年的時候也發生類似的案子啊後來就罰幾千塊啊那環境部都沒有角色"},{"start":15911.975,"end":15935.829,"text":"這個是屬於罰者完全沒有角色當然我們自己罰自己罰個最輕然後還累犯然後這個環境部都也不關心然後也沒有角色不會啦報告委員這個是一個意外啦意外發生我們當然不希望他可以發生那所以我們未來會對於這種所謂的這種戰志的這個場我們是不是來做一個通盤的檢討要不要更好的規範這是我們未來要做的那現在總共類似這種戰志場多少"},{"start":15938.269,"end":15947.803,"text":"這個有一個叫野埋場那這個戰智場台南我記得這次是風災後特殊的意外有三個全國多少那嘉義的應該清掉了你有沒有回答"},{"start":15949.453,"end":15971.767,"text":"因為這個戰智場有的就是我們的規劃說都是放在掩埋場裡面戰智所以如果真的是放在外面我們這裡的資料大概是七個七個因為風災之後去戰智七個台南這是其中一個台南本身就有三個那你們對於戰智場管理是怎麼樣"},{"start":15972.862,"end":15987.857,"text":"目前因為他站置的時間原來規劃的不是太長那所以就是怕去化太慢了嗎就是有一些警衛在那裡看這個環境部也要有一個監督的機制不然放在那邊如果不是發生火災搞不好"},{"start":15988.562,"end":16008.36,"text":"就在那邊堆在那邊天荒地老所以這個管理的問題啦好不好再加強一下好像部長是太辛苦了所以感冒是不是我最後一個問因為我看到這個台南的火災事件之後附近的居民很憂心啊就問一個問題就是說裡面有沒有被丟石棉瓦"},{"start":16009.857,"end":16030.778,"text":"那個我剛剛他們那個有查證明是沒有石棉瓦沒有石棉瓦其他的有啦所以網友可以那石棉瓦就是風災這個有很多屋頂啊什麼被摧毀了你石棉瓦你分離是不是你把石棉瓦拿到另外一個地方去堆置是不是石棉瓦有特別堆置的不是你們有做這個分離的動作是不是有有有"},{"start":16032.519,"end":16057.228,"text":"沒有 那網友比較放心但是實棉網大家會特別問是因為實棉它實棉網完整是沒問題但是它如果破裂的話就會引發大家可以看到就是很多癌症的問題實棉纖維嘛吸進去然後實棉其實它你們在處理這個也有一個我覺得有一個問題跟剛剛我們討論差不多就是它現在你沒辦法焚化嘛對不對你現在是要用什麼方式去去化"},{"start":16057.988,"end":16081.69,"text":"他首先第一個是要把它破碎固化掩埋啦要把它固化掩埋只能夠掩埋那掩埋是最終處理方式嗎請問一下我們現在有幾個實棉的最終處理的掩埋廠有三個廠因為我們可以看一下現在環境部要做這個事情的時候我覺得他"},{"start":16082.928,"end":16103.697,"text":"因為風災的關係 像譬如說以台南來講的話它就有54709棟當然不是每一個都有遇到風災 有破損啦但是它產生的量一定會增加嘛一定會增加 全台灣是24萬棟那有一個數據 其實看得非常清楚就是之前環境部說要解決失眠這個問題的時候因為那時候沒有發生風災 112年所以處理的量就是少"},{"start":16107.88,"end":16129.577,"text":"113年開始就開始變多114年因為這個數據統計到七月底所以比較少我相信如果統計到今年底的話因為有遇到七月以後的風災一定大量可是大家現在就會懷疑說我們到底有沒有足夠的量可以去處理這些失眠像您剛剛講有三個掩埋場那個量夠嗎"},{"start":16131.406,"end":16158.358,"text":"因為第一個我們現在50萬噸50萬噸是沒有壞的然後現在這次大概壞了一兩萬噸左右那一兩萬噸去處理這個是沒有問題然後每年有一個固定去化的量我們預估是沒有問題你確定沒有問題沒有問題那我們現在正在研發這種所謂的熱處理的方式把它化學把它的體積變小所以目前也正在研發當中我們希望未來沒有問題那你在追蹤處理之前你也是用站置對不對"},{"start":16159.919,"end":16183.079,"text":"呃他在十年戰志嗎十秒站好那請問一下十年專屬於十年戰志場全國有幾個呃現在大量的就是在晨曦然後大多數大概幾個請請這個十年的處理的最終場會直接發生了後他馬上就運走所以其實有一個流程在那邊好那那如果是戰志的話會不會出現台南火燒垃圾山的狀況呃十年就是"},{"start":16184.111,"end":16208.381,"text":"隔熱不可燃防火啊所以才那麼大家會喜歡用或者是說其他的對環境破壞的方式會不會不會不會他其實就用太空包包在那個地方然後就有侵略者來把他運走好那因為因為實名大家很關心啊所以我覺得不會不會好謝謝好謝謝接下來請張雅玲委員張雅玲委員張雅玲委員不在請陳議員來做選擇"},{"start":16220.922,"end":16221.644,"text":"麻煩請彭部長委員好"},{"start":16229.338,"end":16250.704,"text":"部長好多保重我們今天針對環境部的業務報告有發現你們這次的報告呢有減少使用了專業比較減少使用很多的這個專業術語跟這個冷冰冰的科學數據那因此要給你們肯定"},{"start":16251.465,"end":16272.636,"text":"然後因為我們來未還委員會是要溝通的而不是說要讓你們來這裡賣弄專業然後講一大堆專有名詞去粉飾一些問題那我們在這邊透過討論都是為了共同讓台灣有更好的環境資源跟永續發展我相信部長應該很認同這一點對 謝謝"},{"start":16274.666,"end":16280.436,"text":"針對這次的報告唯一比較晚提供的是巴西貝倫舉行的聯合國氣候變化大會"},{"start":16286.343,"end":16309.537,"text":"那這次大會被外界解讀幾乎是原住民的文化博覽會許多自然資源豐沛族群多元的國家都選擇以這個我們原住民文化作為展館的亮點那會場當中呢我們可以看到許多穿著各式傳統服飾的與會者穿梭往來"},{"start":16310.638,"end":16318.907,"text":"整個大會彷彿是一個化身的另類的世界博覽會為什麼會這個樣子本來在巴黎協定604"},{"start":16325.871,"end":16352.427,"text":"调的这个产生的这个巴黎协定碳权机制的额度机制让拥有良好自然资源的这些国家呢可以借由交易碳权来抵消碳排放但是呢真正的碳权绝对不是只有靠盘点土地跟森林面积关键在于全球最重要的这些自然"},{"start":16353.328,"end":16380.82,"text":"碳會的儲量幾乎都是和我們原住民族的這個傳統領域高度重疊的地方那這些土地跟自然資源的治理原住民族與在地的這些社群在文化土地權利跟治理所扮演的角色才是所有自然碳會的專業到底能不能成立的基礎我想不知道部長認不認同這樣的一個論述"},{"start":16383.927,"end":16410.53,"text":"謝謝委員 這個我蠻認同的因為我也觀察到這次在巴西里那個貝倫有大量的原住民其實那個非常的多他幾乎是在整個站館裡面有一半全部是原住民在那邊讓我很訝異那我們其實過去我們很少特別去提到說我們的碳匯跟原住民的關聯有部分提到但是沒有具體的去實施所以這次剛好我們有派出一個青年圓夢計畫有一個年輕朋友他就是原住民"},{"start":16411.53,"end":16422.498,"text":"我有跟他講說這個部分未來是不是可以有一些更好的論述從國外好的經驗帶回來臺灣也可以參考來做因為我們過去臺灣這個部分有倡議但是沒有落地"},{"start":16423.887,"end":16444.121,"text":"我想只跟一個原住民的年輕人講也是不夠的在這次的大會最具存在感的國家我想應該就是印尼印尼在這次COP30的淡黃區他們一口氣展示了40個原住民有關的探專案的攤位"},{"start":16446.663,"end":16468.81,"text":"如果全數都取得認證的話他們就可以產生超過9000萬個的碳權這是相當驚人的數據那印尼的目標在這個COP30期間促成高達10億美元的碳權交易把自己定位在亞洲氣候金融和綠色投資的重要樞紐就是連"},{"start":16471.572,"end":16483.41,"text":"這個主辦國巴西也都強調原住民在他們國家環境資源的治理所扮演的角色那這些訊息我想請教一下部長你們的戰情中心有沒有收集回來"},{"start":16486.823,"end":16511.208,"text":"這個比較個別在國家管的這些訊息的話我們現在還陸續在整理當中所以現在在網站上確實還沒有放進來是沒有放進來還是沒有收集到有收集到但他們在整理當中那我很期待看到你們整理好之後的成果那我在去年的這個COVID-19已經有提醒過環境部了我們可以看一下"},{"start":16512.729,"end":16540.531,"text":"幫大家看一下簡報幫大家回憶一下我們台灣有16個原住民族那本席當然也是以身為原住民的立委為榮我們對於這個土地資源的使用跟維護當然傳承了我們祖先非常多的智慧而且是我們文化當中不可或缺的支柱我們非常樂意在共創多贏的這個前提下"},{"start":16541.212,"end":16549.038,"text":"一一起來參與自然資源的維護貢獻我們原住民族的力量哦那呃在"},{"start":16550.474,"end":16571.605,"text":"为了为这个台湾的在未来的这个PNCM的这个碳权交易的制度可以争取更多的扣抵碳排的费用那么只要环境部呢可以关注到这样的一个重点台湾原住民的这个土地参与与治理都会成为我们台湾的骄傲"},{"start":16573.835,"end":16593.074,"text":"因此本席具體建議我們也可以比照COP30辦理這個全國性原住民文化的這個碳排的研討但是我想我會希望說我們在辦理這樣的研討之前你們可以規劃一下到原鄉到"},{"start":16593.695,"end":16613.409,"text":"比較多的部落到各個部落去說明讓族人更了解才會有更多的參與不僅中央與地方政府也邀請對於碳費需求的廠商一起來投入資源發展原住民的土地資源維護的計畫"},{"start":16614.77,"end":16639.979,"text":"然後我們把這樣的成果呢分享到國際也可以賺取我們台灣這個探權交易的額度不曉得部長同不同意本席的建議好謝謝委員這個其實我有接觸到巴西有一些州政府然後甚至這個巴拉圭然後甚至像印尼他們其實都有類似的原住民跟這個森林碳會的合結合的合作那委員提到的部分我們會來參考因為台灣部"},{"start":16641.58,"end":16649.569,"text":"可能我們土地小所以我們的經濟優異沒有像那些國家這麼的大但是我覺得臺灣還是有機會的那委員提的建議很好我們會請氣候署來做規劃然後來辦相關的研討會"},{"start":16652.602,"end":16667.466,"text":"然後跟原民的部落來對談我們會來做我剛剛有一個提醒重要提醒就是說在我們辦理這樣子的一個研討之前這樣的一個計畫之前我會希望說你們可以這個點廣一點"},{"start":16671.187,"end":16694.506,"text":"去宣傳宣導這樣子的一件有意義的事情因為我當然我也不希望說對於我們未來要推動這樣的一件事情好像變成只有少數人在參與在把持那我希望是可以全面性的參與做這樣特別的提醒可以 這個我們來做到時候委員給我們指導"},{"start":16696.581,"end":16712.282,"text":"好那我最後要用兩張圖片來表達環境部綠色飲食的看法你們在報告第5頁說我們每天有495公噸的這個廚餘處理的切口那我們人口數扣除這個"},{"start":16715.145,"end":16734.457,"text":"喝奶品的這個嬰幼兒我們用這個2000萬的人口來計算的話每人每天呢只要減少除以25公克其實就可以達標了不是很困難你們去統計一下喔其實這個原住民"},{"start":16735.157,"end":16759.591,"text":"比人口比较高的这个比例比较高的县市啊例如说花东地区那是不是我们厨余的这个人均的产生量是最少的我只是推估啦那这个应该是一个有趣的我们计算跟研究大家可以去看一下假如是的话"},{"start":16760.592,"end":16789.495,"text":"那麼在這個我們原住民美食或者是烹煮的方式或許也可以提供給大家去參考就是說減少廚餘的這個部分但我覺得就是說當然烹煮方式不是唯一的參考的一個方式其實在原住民的整個飲食文化跟習慣我們從準備這個備料開始我們的餐具"},{"start":16790.546,"end":16805.789,"text":"跟我們食物的原料的備料的採集其實我們很重要的一個重點就是我們大概吃多少"},{"start":16806.75,"end":16829.92,"text":"就補多少沒有像很多就是過多過多的這種準備我想這個是這樣的一個習慣是很重要的我也相信沒有過度油膩的這些食材是比較容易消化跟下肚的這個部分我覺得大家"},{"start":16831.02,"end":16858.336,"text":"環境部這邊可以作為一個減少廚餘的一個參考依據那建議你們去研究推廣大概就是說讓大家去我們原鄉到原住民的部落也可以多多的去學習品嘗這些美食跟烹調的方式跟我們的飲食文化的習慣謝謝 也不知道委員那個因為我們為了要減少廚餘有準備跟農業部跟"},{"start":16859.981,"end":16874.278,"text":"還有這個教育部有一個重新實農跟實質教育的結合那現在正在規劃當中到時候也請委員來給我們一些指導看如何針對這個原民部落或是大家跟原民部落學習這樣的一個做法好 了解 好 謝謝"},{"start":16882.229,"end":16901.709,"text":"好 謝謝本次會議詢討全部結束委員張雅琳 陳悲瑜所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在作為下決定報告及詢討完畢第二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆 委員另要求期限者從期鎖定那本次會議到此結束 現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}