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10:06:57","會議時間":"2026-07-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查：\n（一）\t本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「能源管理法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）\t本院委員蔡其昌等19人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）\t本院委員鍾佳濱等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）\t本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案。\n二、審查：\n（六）\t行政院函請審議「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」。\n（七）\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）\t本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案。\n（九）\t本院委員徐欣瑩等16人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「能源管理法第二條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等23人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）\t本院委員陳亭妃等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）\t本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n（第十三案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查。））","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施局長瓊華","start":2.69721875,"end":4.03034375,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":4.03034375,"end":4.283468750000001,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":10.57784375,"end":14.087843750000001,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":14.324093750000003,"end":15.825968750000001,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":19.16721875,"end":22.01909375,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施局長瓊華","start":20.36534375,"end":21.512843750000002,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":22.187843750000003,"end":32.26221875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":32.447843750000004,"end":35.46846875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":35.78909375,"end":37.69596875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":37.79721875,"end":41.37471875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":42.08346875,"end":44.20971875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":44.260343750000004,"end":46.42034375,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":46.63971875,"end":48.32721875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":48.96846875,"end":49.45784375,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":49.626593750000005,"end":53.65971875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":53.99721875,"end":55.617218750000006,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":56.22471875,"end":59.633468750000006,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"龔部長明鑫","start":60.13971875,"end":60.156593750000006,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":60.156593750000006,"end":61.05096875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"龔部長明鑫","start":60.22409375,"end":60.291593750000004,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"龔部長明鑫","start":61.70909375,"end":62.94096875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳署長志偉","start":62.94096875,"end":62.97471875,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":62.97471875,"end":63.025343750000005,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳署長志偉","start":63.025343750000005,"end":84.81096875,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":72.27284375,"end":72.47534375000001,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":74.80409375,"end":74.82096875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳署長志偉","start":85.03034375,"end":86.32971875000001,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":85.08096875000001,"end":86.22846875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":86.32971875000001,"end":86.58284375000001,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳署長志偉","start":86.58284375000001,"end":88.91159375000001,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":88.91159375000001,"end":95.02034375000001,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳署長志偉","start":95.02034375000001,"end":95.25659375000001,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":95.25659375000001,"end":95.81346875000001,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳署長志偉","start":95.81346875000001,"end":95.88096875000001,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":95.88096875000001,"end":95.89784375,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳署長志偉","start":95.89784375,"end":102.19221875000001,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":101.04471875,"end":110.74784375,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":111.23721875000001,"end":119.13471875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳署長志偉","start":118.34159375,"end":119.05034375000001,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳署長志偉","start":119.13471875,"end":119.23596875000001,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":119.23596875000001,"end":124.60221875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"邱委員志偉","start":124.95659375000001,"end":126.72846875,"speaker_score":0.972},{"speaker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rt":382.5,"end":384.5,"text":"持續來做一些討論"},{"start":384.5,"end":385.5,"text":"持續的"},{"start":385.5,"end":386.5,"text":"但是我覺得你光開完座談會"},{"start":386.5,"end":388.5,"text":"總要解決這些問題"},{"start":388.5,"end":391.5,"text":"你要有一個完整的一個報告"},{"start":391.5,"end":392.5,"text":"是"},{"start":392.5,"end":393.5,"text":"這些完整的報告"},{"start":393.5,"end":395.5,"text":"就是說要牽涉到"},{"start":395.5,"end":397.5,"text":"如何解決買不到問題"},{"start":397.5,"end":399.5,"text":"如何解決沒地蓋的問題"},{"start":399.5,"end":401.5,"text":"如何解決整合問題"},{"start":401.5,"end":403.5,"text":"報告不要說給你半年"},{"start":403.5,"end":405.5,"text":"半年會不會太久"},{"start":405.5,"end":407.5,"text":"半年可以嗎"},{"start":407.5,"end":408.5,"text":"可以啊"},{"start":408.5,"end":409.5,"text":"因為母法通過半年"},{"start":409.5,"end":411.5,"text":"我們一定要出"},{"start":411.5,"end":412.5,"text":"所以你要把這個問題"},{"start":412.5,"end":414.5,"text":"三個月啦"},{"start":414.5,"end":415.5,"text":"初步的解決"},{"start":415.5,"end":417.5,"text":"三個月提出一個報告好不好"},{"start":417.5,"end":418.5,"text":"好"},{"start":418.5,"end":421.5,"text":"另外電網內心的問題"},{"start":421.5,"end":423.5,"text":"一停電就造成民生"},{"start":423.5,"end":426.5,"text":"或者是工業生產很大的問題"},{"start":426.5,"end":428.5,"text":"所以停電是一個夢業"},{"start":428.5,"end":430.5,"text":"所以你從109到114年"},{"start":430.5,"end":432.5,"text":"停電的三小時次數"},{"start":432.5,"end":434.5,"text":"一直在增加"},{"start":434.5,"end":435.5,"text":"所以這部分"},{"start":435.5,"end":437.5,"text":"如果有一個統計"},{"start":437.5,"end":438.5,"text":"有一個資料庫"},{"start":438.5,"end":441.5,"text":"你要盤點整個一位風災"},{"start":441.5,"end":443.5,"text":"或者過去有停電記錄"},{"start":443.5,"end":444.5,"text":"三個小時的"},{"start":444.5,"end":446.5,"text":"屬於高風險地區"},{"start":446.5,"end":448.5,"text":"我們要進行結構的整"},{"start":448.5,"end":449.5,"text":"強化"},{"start":449.5,"end":450.5,"text":"強化"},{"start":450.5,"end":452.5,"text":"有沒有這相關的資料"},{"start":454.5,"end":456.5,"text":"那個台電公司有沒有代表"},{"start":456.5,"end":458.5,"text":"這個部分我們有資料"},{"start":458.5,"end":459.5,"text":"那我們是不是會後"},{"start":459.5,"end":461.5,"text":"再提供給委員"},{"start":461.5,"end":462.5,"text":"這個資料提供給我"},{"start":462.5,"end":464.5,"text":"但是最重要的是說"},{"start":464.5,"end":466.5,"text":"你們針對這個高風險地區"},{"start":466.5,"end":467.5,"text":"除了盤點之外"},{"start":467.5,"end":470.5,"text":"你們去強化那個防災韌性"},{"start":470.5,"end":472.5,"text":"跟陷入的維護"},{"start":472.5,"end":475.5,"text":"讓這三小時不會常常出現"},{"start":475.5,"end":476.5,"text":"其實報告委員"},{"start":476.5,"end":477.5,"text":"其實我們都會針對"},{"start":477.5,"end":479.5,"text":"這些比較高風險"},{"start":479.5,"end":480.5,"text":"或者是說"},{"start":480.5,"end":482.5,"text":"去盤點相關的一些熱區"},{"start":482.5,"end":484.5,"text":"去做一個加強的"},{"start":484.5,"end":486.5,"text":"一個重點的巡視"},{"start":486.5,"end":487.5,"text":"跟防範的對策"},{"start":487.5,"end":490.5,"text":"你們台電總公司要有個對策"},{"start":490.5,"end":492.5,"text":"要有個政策方向"},{"start":492.5,"end":494.5,"text":"然後要各分處去執行"},{"start":494.5,"end":496.5,"text":"把他所轄下的熱點"},{"start":496.5,"end":497.5,"text":"三個小時以上"},{"start":497.5,"end":499.5,"text":"停電的過去的這些記錄"},{"start":499.5,"end":502.5,"text":"要加強他整個韌性的強化"},{"start":502.5,"end":503.5,"text":"是 石邦委員"},{"start":503.5,"end":505.5,"text":"我們都是朝這個方向去努力"},{"start":505.5,"end":506.5,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":507.5,"end":508.5,"text":"謝謝邱章偉"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:58:39.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:58:39.853846+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:58:40.030769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:58:43.112500+08:00","text":"是不是請經濟部龔部長及能源署吳署長？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T09:58:43.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:58:44.350000+08:00","text":"請龔部長、吳署長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:58:44.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T09:58:48+08:00","text":"召委好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:58:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:58:55.794118+08:00","text":"部長、署長，關於能源管理法修法，幾個本席的條文跟你討論一下。是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:58:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:59:30.200000+08:00","text":"第七條的部分，我的著重點跟院版的不太一樣，你們把相關的折舊刪除掉，而我是要求你們在儲存安全存量有更明確的規範，比方數量基準、設備類型、安全存量、替代方式等等，這個部分是不是可以有一個由中央主管機關，就是能源署、經濟部，制定一個更明確的儲存設備跟儲存安全存量相關的做法，這個可行嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T09:59:30.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:59:31.785714+08:00","text":"是，由吳署長來說明一下。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:59:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:59:32.666667+08:00","text":"請吳署長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:59:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:59:41.323529+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前在子法裡面本來就有規定，像適用對象還有它的……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:59:41.687500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:59:42.812500+08:00","text":"現在的子法就有嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:59:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:59:53.800000+08:00","text":"有，就是我們有一個「能源供應事業及能源用戶達應辦理能源管理法規定事項之能源供應數量、使用數量基準及應儲存之安全存量」的規定，有類似的規定。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:59:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:59:56.321429+08:00","text":"所以已經在子法上有相關規定了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:59:56.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:59:58.222222+08:00","text":"對，有類似的規定。類似？對。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T09:59:58.444444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T09:59:59.777778+08:00","text":"有沒有更明確的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:04.785714+08:00","text":"比方適用對象、基準、類型、安全存量，還有替代方式等等。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:10.291667+08:00","text":"我跟召委報告一下，比如像能源供應事業的話，就有規定能源供應數量基準……","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:10.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:16.361111+08:00","text":"好，我了解，署長，是不是這一條我不放進去，但是你們在相關的子法裡面訂得更明確一點？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:16.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:17.166667+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:17.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:17.500000+08:00","text":"好、OK。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:18.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:35.300000+08:00","text":"另外，關於第九條的部分，我看你們的報告，好像也有相關的子法在執行嘛，就是針對查核機制、節能目標、執行計畫之準則等等部分，在子法裡面有嗎？","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:37.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:47.375000+08:00","text":"我們是有規定，就是他要報的計畫，報完以後，我們現在是改……以前是核備，比較不明確，我們現在改成核定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:47.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:48.884615+08:00","text":"核定的話，那你要有相關的查核……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:49.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:51.318182+08:00","text":"有，我們有相關的查核機制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:51.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:52.300000+08:00","text":"訂在哪裡呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:52.710526+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:56.289474+08:00","text":"它另外有一條……子法裡面有定一個公告怎麼查核、查核方式……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:56.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:57.700000+08:00","text":"現在子法定了嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:57.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:00:58.100000+08:00","text":"還是還在定？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:00:58.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:01.166667+08:00","text":"原來就有一個子法，因為這是一個……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:01.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:09.264706+08:00","text":"所以原來就有這個子法，針對我這邊所羅列的能源查核制度、執行計畫準則等相關機制，都有嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:09.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:17.333333+08:00","text":"都有類似的規定，因為現在本來就有大用戶一年要節電1%跟1.5%，所以我們有相關的一些規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:17.333333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:18.500000+08:00","text":"至於委員的這些意見，我會把……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:18.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:22.500000+08:00","text":"我希望如果我這部分不放進去，你們相關的子法要制定得更完整一點。好。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:23.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:25.214286+08:00","text":"第七條跟第九條。是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:25.730769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:41.269231+08:00","text":"另外就是第十條的部分，契約容量達一定容量的用戶，一定期限裝置一定容量以上的自用發電設備跟儲能設備，這些是要用子法來做規範嗎？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:41.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:48.911765+08:00","text":"是，因為再生能源條例也是類似這樣的體例。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:49.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:52.388889+08:00","text":"所以你用子法，那子法什麼時候會出來呢？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:52.714286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:55.285714+08:00","text":"子法通常是母法通過以後的半年。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:55.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:01:56.357143+08:00","text":"半年之內會出來？對。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:01:56.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:02.500000+08:00","text":"所以會很清楚地規範相關的部分，包括裝置容量、設備種類、設置方式等等。是。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:03.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:07.227273+08:00","text":"好，另外，這個是五年以內嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:07.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:12.166667+08:00","text":"再生能源它的規定是說在當年度1月1日……","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:12.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:18.166667+08:00","text":"那是再生能源給予的寬限期，或者是磨合期。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:18.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:21.500000+08:00","text":"這個我們將來也會有類似的期間……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:21.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:23.166667+08:00","text":"寬限期。對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:23.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:24.357143+08:00","text":"那期限是多少呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:25.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:34.277778+08:00","text":"由子法訂定，但是因為再生能源條例是五年嘛，我們用這個基準來跟相關業者做討論。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:34.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:36.250000+08:00","text":"好，那可能會定多久？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:36.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:38.300000+08:00","text":"就是用五年作為基準。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:38.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:39.300000+08:00","text":"也是用五年。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:39.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:42.300000+08:00","text":"對，就是問問他們看可不可以做到啦，意思是這樣。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:42.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:44.318182+08:00","text":"如果他們回答說做不到呢？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:44.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:47.214286+08:00","text":"我們當然也會判斷啦，他要講一個理由。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:50.357143+08:00","text":"他如果用十年，你們可以接受嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:50.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:53.312500+08:00","text":"我們還是用五年作為基準來討論啦。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:53.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:02:55.300000+08:00","text":"你制定下去，他就要遵守。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:02:56.833333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:00.772727+08:00","text":"也一定要讓他可以做得到。是啦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:01.318182+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:05.366667+08:00","text":"如果業界普遍反映而跟你們陳情要求十年，你們會接受嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:05.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:07.214286+08:00","text":"那真的太久了啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:07.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:10.250000+08:00","text":"你覺得合理的期限大概是多久？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:10.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:11.566667+08:00","text":"就是我們用……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:11.833333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:12.100000+08:00","text":"五年啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:12.633333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:14.233333+08:00","text":"用五年作為基準來討論。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:15.045455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:32.250000+08:00","text":"另外繼續請教第十條，這一條其實還是有相關的問題，你跟電業法做一些配套去思考，會有買不到的問題、沒有地蓋的問題，還有整合的問題等等，這些會造成窒礙難行的情況。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:33.045455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:38.269231+08:00","text":"徒有相關的法定義務，但是難以去履行這些法定義務。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:39.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:41.375000+08:00","text":"部長跟署長有沒有看到這個問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:41.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:47.318182+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛跟委員報告，就是為什麼我們要跟相關利害關係人討論，希望讓他們可以做……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:47.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:49.300000+08:00","text":"相關利害關係人有多少人？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:49.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:51+08:00","text":"七百多戶。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:52.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:53+08:00","text":"七百多戶？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:53.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:55.100000+08:00","text":"如果用5 MW作為標準……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:55.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:56.300000+08:00","text":"5 MW有七百多戶。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:56.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:57.785714+08:00","text":"對，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:57.785714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:03:59.357143+08:00","text":"你們有召開相關的會議了嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:03:59.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:04:02.333333+08:00","text":"召開了兩場，後續還會召開。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:04:04.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:04:06.277778+08:00","text":"七百多戶主要是分布在哪裡？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳署長志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:04:06.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:04:19.300000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有的是在園區，有的是在工業區，我們現在是在臺北開過1場，高雄也開過1場，後續還會陸續到比較集中的區域去開說明會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:04:19.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:04:25.214286+08:00","text":"這三個問題都很難處理，買不到，真的就是買不到！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:04:25.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:04:34.214286+08:00","text":"然後你要他自行設置、自行使用，他就要找地啊，沒有地怎麼蓋？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:04:34.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:04:42.100000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛跟委員報告，就是我們還是要跟這些利害關係人討論，而且新舊可能要求會有不一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:04:42.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:04:46.166667+08:00","text":"這個部分你們還要討論多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:04:46.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:04:53.250000+08:00","text":"就是持續跟這些廠商在一些座談會上來做討論。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:04:53.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:05:14.214286+08:00","text":"持續，但是我覺得開完座談會，總要解決這些問題，你要有一個完整的報告，這個報告要牽涉到如何解決買不到的問題、如何解決沒地蓋的問題、如何解決整合的問題，不要說給你半年，半年會不會太久？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:05:14.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:05:16.100000+08:00","text":"半年可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-22T10:05:16.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:05:20.166667+08:00","text":"可以啊，因為母法通過半年我們一定要出子法……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:05:20.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:05:24.300000+08:00","text":"對，所以你在3個月內要提出初步的解決方案。對。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:05:24.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:05:26.500000+08:00","text":"3個月提出一個報告，好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:05:27.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:06:01.277778+08:00","text":"另外是電網韌性的問題，一停電就造成民生或工業生產很大的問題，所以停電是一個夢魘，從109到114年停電逾3小時的次數一直在增加，這部分要有一個統計的資料庫，你要盤點因為風災或過去有停電紀錄逾3個小時的地區，針對屬於高風險地區，進行結構的強化，請問有沒有相關的資料？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:06:04.045455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:06:05.318182+08:00","text":"台電公司有沒有代表？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃專業總管理師美蓮","start":"2026-07-22T10:06:05.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:06:10.166667+08:00","text":"這個部分我們有資料，是不是會後再提供給委員？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:06:10.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:06:24.227273+08:00","text":"把這個資料提供給我，但是最重要是針對高風險地區，除了盤點之外，你們要去強化防災的韌性跟線路的維護，讓逾3小時停電不會常常出現。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"黃專業總管理師美蓮","start":"2026-07-22T10:06:24.833333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:06:35.833333+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實我們都會針對比較高風險的或者是……去盤點相關的熱區，加強重點的巡視跟防範。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:06:36.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:06:50.409091+08:00","text":"你們台電總公司要有一個對策，要有一個政策方向，然後要各分處去執行，把它轄下的熱點，過去有停電3個小時以上紀錄的，強化它整個韌性。","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"黃專業總管理師美蓮","start":"2026-07-22T10:06:51.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:06:54.333333+08:00","text":"是，報告委員，我們都是朝這個方向去努力。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2026-07-22T10:06:54.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:06:55.166667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:06:55.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:06:58.809524+08:00","text":"謝謝邱召委，謝謝部長、署長。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:06:59.109524+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:07:01.966667+08:00","text":"接下來有請陳超明委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1416,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（9時58分）謝謝主席。是不是請經濟部龔部長及能源署吳署長？"],["主席：請龔部長、吳署長。"],["龔部長明鑫：召委好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長、署長，關於能源管理法修法，幾個本席的條文跟你討論一下。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員志偉：第七條的部分，我的著重點跟院版的不太一樣，你們把相關的折舊刪除掉，而我是要求你們在儲存安全存量有更明確的規範，比方數量基準、設備類型、安全存量、替代方式等等，這個部分是不是可以有一個由中央主管機關，就是能源署、經濟部，制定一個更明確的儲存設備跟儲存安全存量相關的做法，這個可行嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，由吳署長來說明一下。"],["邱委員志偉：請吳署長。"],["吳署長志偉：跟委員報告，目前在子法裡面本來就有規定，像適用對象還有它的……"],["邱委員志偉：現在的子法就有嗎？"],["吳署長志偉：有，就是我們有一個「能源供應事業及能源用戶達應辦理能源管理法規定事項之能源供應數量、使用數量基準及應儲存之安全存量」的規定，有類似的規定。"],["邱委員志偉：所以已經在子法上有相關規定了。"],["吳署長志偉：對，有類似的規定。"],["邱委員志偉：類似？"],["吳署長志偉：對。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有更明確的？比方適用對象、基準、類型、安全存量，還有替代方式等等。"],["吳署長志偉：我跟召委報告一下，比如像能源供應事業的話，就有規定能源供應數量基準……"],["邱委員志偉：好，我了解，署長，是不是這一條我不放進去，但是你們在相關的子法裡面訂得更明確一點？"],["吳署長志偉：好，沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：好、OK。另外，關於第九條的部分，我看你們的報告，好像也有相關的子法在執行嘛，就是針對查核機制、節能目標、執行計畫之準則等等部分，在子法裡面有嗎？"],["吳署長志偉：我們是有規定，就是他要報的計畫，報完以後，我們現在是改……以前是核備，比較不明確，我們現在改成核定。"],["邱委員志偉：核定的話，那你要有相關的查核……"],["吳署長志偉：有，我們有相關的查核機制。"],["邱委員志偉：訂在哪裡呢？"],["吳署長志偉：它另外有一條……子法裡面有定一個公告怎麼查核、查核方式……"],["邱委員志偉：現在子法定了嗎？還是還在定？"],["吳署長志偉：原來就有一個子法，因為這是一個……"],["邱委員志偉：所以原來就有這個子法，針對我這邊所羅列的能源查核制度、執行計畫準則等相關機制，都有嗎？"],["吳署長志偉：都有類似的規定，因為現在本來就有大用戶一年要節電1%跟1.5%，所以我們有相關的一些規定。至於委員的這些意見，我會把……"],["邱委員志偉：我希望如果我這部分不放進去，你們相關的子法要制定得更完整一點。"],["吳署長志偉：好。"],["邱委員志偉：第七條跟第九條。"],["吳署長志偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外就是第十條的部分，契約容量達一定容量的用戶，一定期限裝置一定容量以上的自用發電設備跟儲能設備，這些是要用子法來做規範嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，因為再生能源條例也是類似這樣的體例。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你用子法，那子法什麼時候會出來呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：子法通常是母法通過以後的半年。"],["邱委員志偉：半年之內會出來？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以會很清楚地規範相關的部分，包括裝置容量、設備種類、設置方式等等。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，另外，這個是五年以內嗎？再生能源它的規定是說在當年度1月1日……"],["龔部長明鑫：那是再生能源給予的寬限期，或者是磨合期。這個我們將來也會有類似的期間……"],["邱委員志偉：寬限期。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員志偉：那期限是多少呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：由子法訂定，但是因為再生能源條例是五年嘛，我們用這個基準來跟相關業者做討論。"],["邱委員志偉：好，那可能會定多久？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是用五年作為基準。"],["邱委員志偉：也是用五年。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，就是問問他們看可不可以做到啦，意思是這樣。"],["邱委員志偉：如果他們回答說做不到呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們當然也會判斷啦，他要講一個理由。"],["邱委員志偉：他如果用十年，你們可以接受嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們還是用五年作為基準來討論啦。"],["邱委員志偉：你制定下去，他就要遵守。"],["龔部長明鑫：也一定要讓他可以做得到。"],["邱委員志偉：是啦。如果業界普遍反映而跟你們陳情要求十年，你們會接受嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：那真的太久了啦！"],["邱委員志偉：你覺得合理的期限大概是多久？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是我們用……"],["邱委員志偉：五年啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：用五年作為基準來討論。"],["邱委員志偉：另外繼續請教第十條，這一條其實還是有相關的問題，你跟電業法做一些配套去思考，會有買不到的問題、沒有地蓋的問題，還有整合的問題等等，這些會造成窒礙難行的情況。徒有相關的法定義務，但是難以去履行這些法定義務。部長跟署長有沒有看到這個問題？"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我剛剛跟委員報告，就是為什麼我們要跟相關利害關係人討論，希望讓他們可以做……"],["邱委員志偉：相關利害關係人有多少人？"],["龔部長明鑫：七百多戶。"],["邱委員志偉：七百多戶？"],["龔部長明鑫：如果用5 MW作為標準……"],["邱委員志偉：5 MW有七百多戶。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，以上。"],["邱委員志偉：你們有召開相關的會議了嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：召開了兩場，後續還會召開。"],["邱委員志偉：七百多戶主要是分布在哪裡？"],["吳署長志偉：跟委員報告，有的是在園區，有的是在工業區，我們現在是在臺北開過1場，高雄也開過1場，後續還會陸續到比較集中的區域去開說明會。"],["邱委員志偉：這三個問題都很難處理，買不到，真的就是買不到！然後你要他自行設置、自行使用，他就要找地啊，沒有地怎麼蓋？"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我剛剛跟委員報告，就是我們還是要跟這些利害關係人討論，而且新舊可能要求會有不一樣。"],["邱委員志偉：這個部分你們還要討論多久？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是持續跟這些廠商在一些座談會上來做討論。"],["邱委員志偉：持續，但是我覺得開完座談會，總要解決這些問題，你要有一個完整的報告，這個報告要牽涉到如何解決買不到的問題、如何解決沒地蓋的問題、如何解決整合的問題，不要說給你半年，半年會不會太久？半年可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：可以啊，因為母法通過半年我們一定要出子法……"],["邱委員志偉：對，所以你在3個月內要提出初步的解決方案。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員志偉：3個月提出一個報告，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["邱委員志偉：另外是電網韌性的問題，一停電就造成民生或工業生產很大的問題，所以停電是一個夢魘，從109到114年停電逾3小時的次數一直在增加，這部分要有一個統計的資料庫，你要盤點因為風災或過去有停電紀錄逾3個小時的地區，針對屬於高風險地區，進行結構的強化，請問有沒有相關的資料？台電公司有沒有代表？"],["黃專業總管理師美蓮：這個部分我們有資料，是不是會後再提供給委員？"],["邱委員志偉：把這個資料提供給我，但是最重要是針對高風險地區，除了盤點之外，你們要去強化防災的韌性跟線路的維護，讓逾3小時停電不會常常出現。"],["黃專業總管理師美蓮：報告委員，其實我們都會針對比較高風險的或者是……去盤點相關的熱區，加強重點的巡視跟防範。"],["邱委員志偉：你們台電總公司要有一個對策，要有一個政策方向，然後要各分處去執行，把它轄下的熱點，過去有停電3個小時以上紀錄的，強化它整個韌性。"],["黃專業總管理師美蓮：是，報告委員，我們都是朝這個方向去努力。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱召委，謝謝部長、署長。","接下來有請陳超明委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-19-22","speakers":["邱志偉","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","洪毓祥","呂玉玲","陳超明","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","傅崐萁","蔡易餘","張嘉郡","賴瑞隆"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2026-07-22"],"gazette_id":"1156601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查：(一)本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「能源管理法第七條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員蔡其昌等19人擬具\n「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員鍾佳濱等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一\n條文草案」案；二、審查：(六)行政院函請審議「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員郭國文等\n16人擬具「能源管理法增訂第十九條之二及第二十七條之一條文草案」案、(九)本院委員徐欣瑩\n等16人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具\n「能源管理法第二條條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員楊瓊瓔等23人擬具「能源管理法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員陳亭妃等20人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案、 (十\n三)本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「能源管理法部分條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156601_00016"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}