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有請陸委會省副主委"},{"start":2.44,"end":5,"text":"我們先讓這個林佳和林部長休息一下"},{"start":5,"end":5.9,"text":"等一下稍後"},{"start":5.9,"end":6.66,"text":"副主委請"},{"start":6.66,"end":8.8,"text":"也會問到林部長 對"},{"start":10.64,"end":11.14,"text":"好"},{"start":11.88,"end":12.38,"text":"副主委"},{"start":12.38,"end":13.22,"text":"趕快喝水喔"},{"start":13.22,"end":14.22,"text":"是不是謝謝委員"},{"start":14.22,"end":14.72,"text":"呃"},{"start":15.22,"end":16.82,"text":"我們今天講到這個梅宣喔"},{"start":16.82,"end":20.22,"text":"因為陸委會是主管這個中國事務"},{"start":20.22,"end":21.62,"text":"所以說你知道"},{"start":21.62,"end":23.42,"text":"中共每年砸多少權"},{"start":23.42,"end":26.42,"text":"在進行全球的大外宣的行銷嗎"},{"start":26.42,"end":26.92,"text":"嗯"},{"start":26.92,"end":27.66,"text":"你有數字嗎"},{"start":27.96,"end":29.3,"text":"我們基本上能夠掌握的"},{"start":29.32,"end":31.66,"text":"大概也都是中共官方公布的這個數據"},{"start":31.66,"end":32.6,"text":"但基本上可能"},{"start":32.6,"end":35.2,"text":"他沒有公布的這個數字恐怕是更高"},{"start":35.2,"end":37.24,"text":"所以以譬如說以人員為例的話"},{"start":37.24,"end":39.88,"text":"像我們陸委會大概編制就是兩百多人喔"},{"start":39.88,"end":40.84,"text":"那我們知道"},{"start":40.84,"end":42.28,"text":"中共的這個對台事務的話"},{"start":42.28,"end":45.04,"text":"他的人員就有差不多將近數十萬人"},{"start":45.04,"end":46.24,"text":"那在預算上來講的話"},{"start":46.24,"end":48.82,"text":"他們更是宣稱說統戰是無上限"},{"start":48.82,"end":50.72,"text":"所以包含像梅宣啦"},{"start":50.72,"end":52.16,"text":"或包含像其他這個議題來講"},{"start":52.16,"end":53.36,"text":"我們我們我們出估啦"},{"start":53.36,"end":54.38,"text":"他的這個經費"},{"start":54.38,"end":56.42,"text":"大概遠遠是高過於我們這邊"},{"start":56.42,"end":57.620000000000005,"text":"好 我給你一個數字喔"},{"start":57.62,"end":59.419999999999995,"text":"這是我從自由時報找到的"},{"start":59.419999999999995,"end":61.62,"text":"那麼這是在今年三月的報導"},{"start":61.62,"end":63.32,"text":"就是中國全球的巡消費"},{"start":63.32,"end":65.92,"text":"是高達七十億美元到一百億美元"},{"start":65.92,"end":67.32,"text":"言下之意換算台幣"},{"start":67.32,"end":71.7,"text":"大概就是兩千兩百四十億到三千兩百億"},{"start":71.7,"end":73.06,"text":"陸委會一年預算多少"},{"start":73.06,"end":74.16,"text":"宣傳預算多少"},{"start":74.16,"end":75.6,"text":"宣傳宣傳就好"},{"start":75.6,"end":78.5,"text":"我們的這個梅宣費一年大概就是一千多塊"},{"start":78.5,"end":81.4,"text":"好 這真的果然是小蝦米對大鯨魚啦"},{"start":81.4,"end":83,"text":"這是幾百分之一啦"},{"start":83,"end":84.64,"text":"但是我要提到的是"},{"start":85.16,"end":87.3,"text":"我們今天談到的這種"},{"start":87.3,"end":89.74,"text":"所謂已經是勢力上的不對等"},{"start":89.74,"end":91.54,"text":"結果你們還被砍光光啦"},{"start":91.54,"end":94.54,"text":"但是我要先來就事實來做詢問"},{"start":94.54,"end":95.38,"text":"因為呢"},{"start":95.38,"end":97.24,"text":"我知道陸委會最近不斷的在公布"},{"start":97.24,"end":98.68,"text":"就是國人腹中"},{"start":98.68,"end":101.02,"text":"尤其是具有軍公教身份的時候"},{"start":101.02,"end":102.34,"text":"就會被盤查"},{"start":102.34,"end":103.82,"text":"但是現在竟然有媒體說"},{"start":103.82,"end":105.46000000000001,"text":"這個是個假消息"},{"start":105.46000000000001,"end":106.78,"text":"你們真的很慘耶"},{"start":106.78,"end":108.66,"text":"梅宣費被砍光就算了"},{"start":108.66,"end":109.96000000000001,"text":"你們現在公布新聞稿"},{"start":109.96000000000001,"end":111.52,"text":"還被媒體說是假消息"},{"start":111.52,"end":112.66,"text":"這到底是真的還假的"},{"start":112.67999999999999,"end":114.88,"text":"因為也有人來跟我陳情喔"},{"start":114.88,"end":118.28,"text":"就說他本身是高階軍官的家屬"},{"start":118.28,"end":120.46,"text":"結果他只是家屬"},{"start":120.46,"end":123.25999999999999,"text":"中共既然是已說"},{"start":123.25999999999999,"end":125.6,"text":"他入住投訴之後"},{"start":125.6,"end":128.4,"text":"他的小孩沒有登記身份證"},{"start":128.4,"end":130.8,"text":"然後他就隨便報了一個身份證"},{"start":130.8,"end":133,"text":"結果這個盤查的單位居然說"},{"start":133,"end":136,"text":"欸 這個身份證不對耶"},{"start":136,"end":137.44,"text":"他整個嚇到"},{"start":137.44,"end":138.54,"text":"我要問的就是"},{"start":138.54,"end":141.04,"text":"現在我們高階將領是不是整個"},{"start":141.06,"end":143.29999999999998,"text":"不只是他的個資全都外洩"},{"start":143.29999999999998,"end":144.29999999999998,"text":"連他的親屬"},{"start":144.29999999999998,"end":146.44,"text":"他的家人的個資都外洩"},{"start":146.44,"end":148.16,"text":"都遭到查核嗎"},{"start":148.16,"end":150.04,"text":"中國掌控台灣的資訊"},{"start":150.04,"end":151.89999999999998,"text":"一定要這麼嚴重嗎"},{"start":151.89999999999998,"end":153,"text":"跟委員報告說說"},{"start":153,"end":154.94,"text":"基本上這個東西不是個案喔"},{"start":154.94,"end":156.48,"text":"它應該是一個系統性的風險"},{"start":156.48,"end":158.28,"text":"正在逐步的提高當中"},{"start":158.28,"end":160.38,"text":"所以包含像是媒體報導出來的"},{"start":160.38,"end":163.48,"text":"這個高階軍官的子女的部分"},{"start":163.48,"end":164.92,"text":"還有前一陣子我們掌握到的"},{"start":164.92,"end":166.92,"text":"像是兩位警察的這個部分"},{"start":166.92,"end":169.06,"text":"甚至在更早以前有法官的這個部分"},{"start":169.08,"end":171.08,"text":"我們都發現到他們入境之後"},{"start":171.08,"end":173.58,"text":"就直接被特定的單位給帶走盤查"},{"start":173.58,"end":176.08,"text":"甚至是到他們下大的環境去詢問"},{"start":176.08,"end":177.66,"text":"那問的問題都非常的專業"},{"start":177.66,"end":179.06,"text":"而且都非常的針對性"},{"start":179.06,"end":181.72,"text":"所以顯然就是說他們事前就已經掌握到"},{"start":181.72,"end":183.72,"text":"要入境的這些人他們的背景"},{"start":183.72,"end":185.36,"text":"他們過去服務的一些單位"},{"start":185.36,"end":186.86,"text":"甚至他們工作的對象"},{"start":186.86,"end":189,"text":"所以才會問的非常的到位的問題"},{"start":189,"end":190.6,"text":"表示他們是有備而來"},{"start":190.6,"end":192.46,"text":"所以我們在這邊陸委會大概也還是"},{"start":192.46,"end":195.6,"text":"會針對特定的人事附入風險的部分"},{"start":195.6,"end":196.44,"text":"來提醒國人"},{"start":196.44,"end":198.84,"text":"包含像是從事國安單位的"},{"start":198.86,"end":200.86,"text":"或者是安全單位的一些公務人員"},{"start":200.86,"end":203.1,"text":"另外還有特定的這個宗教人士"},{"start":203.1,"end":205.76,"text":"現在非必要的話就請勿遣返"},{"start":205.76,"end":208.26,"text":"請勿遣往這個鹿港澳地區"},{"start":208.26,"end":210.26,"text":"那這個還是我們陸委會基本的這個政策"},{"start":210.26,"end":213.5,"text":"好其實我認為這個面對中國的"},{"start":213.5,"end":216.2,"text":"所謂的不論是法律戰心理戰"},{"start":216.2,"end":219.54,"text":"甚至於實質的就把手伸進台灣的滲透"},{"start":219.54,"end":221.64000000000001,"text":"我想其實在國防外交委員會的委員"},{"start":221.64000000000001,"end":223.74,"text":"因為還有其他的單位包括國安局"},{"start":223.74,"end":225.74,"text":"會來報告我們都非常的清楚"},{"start":225.74,"end":227.94,"text":"所以說面對這樣的消息"},{"start":228.04,"end":230.04,"text":"我覺得揭露是最重要的"},{"start":230.04,"end":232.04,"text":"所以本席還是鼓勵陸委會必須"},{"start":232.04,"end":234.04,"text":"定期的把這樣的資訊讓國人知道"},{"start":234.04,"end":234.54,"text":"是"},{"start":234.54,"end":236.54,"text":"好另外主席我要有請那個"},{"start":236.54,"end":238.54,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":238.54,"end":239.54,"text":"林部長"},{"start":239.54,"end":240.54,"text":"林部長"},{"start":240.54,"end":243.54,"text":"好那沈副主委還是稍後"},{"start":243.54,"end":245.54,"text":"因為我剛剛特別問到了"},{"start":245.54,"end":248.54,"text":"就是中國大外宣"},{"start":248.54,"end":250.04,"text":"其實不要講大外宣"},{"start":250.04,"end":252.04,"text":"他們在做他們的宣傳"},{"start":252.04,"end":256.04,"text":"一年就有2240億到3000億"},{"start":256.04,"end":257.54,"text":"之間的宣傳費"},{"start":257.64000000000004,"end":259.64000000000004,"text":"然後呢因為本席是媒體出來"},{"start":259.64000000000004,"end":261.64000000000004,"text":"所以本席特別去查了"},{"start":261.64000000000004,"end":264.64000000000004,"text":"中國一家官媒叫做中國日報"},{"start":264.64000000000004,"end":267.64000000000004,"text":"他在2016年到2020年"},{"start":267.64000000000004,"end":270.64000000000004,"text":"向美國媒體支付的廣告費"},{"start":270.64000000000004,"end":275.64000000000004,"text":"就高達新台幣6.08億元"},{"start":275.64000000000004,"end":277.64000000000004,"text":"一間官媒"},{"start":277.64000000000004,"end":280.64000000000004,"text":"都可以跟美國支付廣告費"},{"start":280.64000000000004,"end":282.64000000000004,"text":"他支付這個廣告費是為了什麼"},{"start":283.64000000000004,"end":284.64000000000004,"text":"部長你認為"},{"start":284.74,"end":287.74,"text":"為什麼官媒還要去買媒體"},{"start":287.74,"end":290.74,"text":"包括委員我們現在外館111個"},{"start":290.74,"end":292.74,"text":"我們很多外館都面對到"},{"start":292.74,"end":294.74,"text":"中共的大使不斷在刊登"},{"start":294.74,"end":295.74,"text":"在最大報"},{"start":295.74,"end":297.74,"text":"甚至有時候是半版更多的"},{"start":297.74,"end":300.74,"text":"他們的立場或聲明"},{"start":300.74,"end":303.74,"text":"我們當然也會反駁"},{"start":303.74,"end":305.74,"text":"不過相對來講聲量當然就沒有"},{"start":305.74,"end":306.74,"text":"強化那麼大"},{"start":306.74,"end":308.74,"text":"那在美國當然我們那個北美"},{"start":308.74,"end":309.74,"text":"市長"},{"start":309.74,"end":311.74,"text":"美國如果有那個"},{"start":311.74,"end":313.74,"text":"我們真的是沒有辦法去做"},{"start":313.84000000000003,"end":314.84000000000003,"text":"這些宣傳廣告"},{"start":314.84000000000003,"end":316.84000000000003,"text":"因為其實單單我們日常運作的運費"},{"start":316.84000000000003,"end":320.84000000000003,"text":"其實美國現在13變14個館"},{"start":320.84000000000003,"end":323.84000000000003,"text":"其實基本上都只能夠透過其他"},{"start":323.84000000000003,"end":327.84000000000003,"text":"免費的方式或是製造新聞"},{"start":327.84000000000003,"end":329.84000000000003,"text":"所以部長發臉書"},{"start":329.84000000000003,"end":331.84000000000003,"text":"然後陸委會副主委發臉書"},{"start":331.84000000000003,"end":333.84000000000003,"text":"然後台灣一個"},{"start":333.84000000000003,"end":335.84000000000003,"text":"今天聽說股市開盤"},{"start":335.84000000000003,"end":337.84000000000003,"text":"還漲了1000多點的"},{"start":337.84000000000003,"end":339.84000000000003,"text":"這樣一個經濟蓬勃的實績體"},{"start":339.84000000000003,"end":342.84000000000003,"text":"居然是要求部會首長去發臉書"},{"start":342.94,"end":343.94,"text":"那他們就去當網紅"},{"start":343.94,"end":345.94,"text":"我覺得你們去當網紅就好了"},{"start":345.94,"end":347.94,"text":"怎麼會有這樣的在野黨委員"},{"start":347.94,"end":348.94,"text":"這樣的提案我是不理解"},{"start":348.94,"end":350.94,"text":"但是回到嚴肅的話題"},{"start":350.94,"end":352.94,"text":"就以前一陣子"},{"start":352.94,"end":354.94,"text":"這個美日針對他們的"},{"start":354.94,"end":356.94,"text":"專屬經濟海域談判的背後"},{"start":356.94,"end":358.94,"text":"現在已經被揭露了"},{"start":358.94,"end":359.94,"text":"其實帶風向的背後"},{"start":359.94,"end":361.94,"text":"是有中國的認知戰"},{"start":361.94,"end":363.94,"text":"事實上部長你非常清楚"},{"start":363.94,"end":365.94,"text":"在美日的談判當中"},{"start":365.94,"end":366.94,"text":"根本沒有提到經濟海域"},{"start":366.94,"end":369.94,"text":"但是網路上所傳的這一個圖片"},{"start":369.94,"end":371.94,"text":"根本就是假消息"},{"start":372.04,"end":374.04,"text":"他用的是一個美國智庫"},{"start":374.04,"end":376.04,"text":"針對各國的經濟海域"},{"start":376.04,"end":378.04,"text":"所套上的一個圖"},{"start":378.04,"end":380.04,"text":"然後他特別的"},{"start":380.04,"end":382.04,"text":"只放上日本的"},{"start":382.04,"end":383.04,"text":"菲律賓的"},{"start":383.04,"end":385.04,"text":"但是故意"},{"start":385.04,"end":387.04,"text":"掠取台灣的經濟海域"},{"start":387.04,"end":390.04,"text":"然後就用這種假消息的方式"},{"start":390.04,"end":392.04,"text":"在做法律戰"},{"start":392.04,"end":393.04,"text":"認知戰"},{"start":393.04,"end":395.04,"text":"然後企圖其實是要"},{"start":395.04,"end":398.04,"text":"掩蓋當時中國騷擾我們東部海域"},{"start":398.04,"end":400.04,"text":"等於是一個裡應外合"},{"start":400.14000000000004,"end":402.14000000000004,"text":"但可悲的是"},{"start":402.14000000000004,"end":404.14000000000004,"text":"在我們國內有媒體"},{"start":404.14000000000004,"end":406.14000000000004,"text":"包括還有在野黨的政治人物"},{"start":406.14000000000004,"end":408.14000000000004,"text":"就配合著操作"},{"start":408.14000000000004,"end":410.14000000000004,"text":"這明明就是一個假圖假訊息"},{"start":410.14000000000004,"end":412.14000000000004,"text":"我想不止陸委會"},{"start":412.14000000000004,"end":414.14000000000004,"text":"包括外交部"},{"start":414.14000000000004,"end":416.14000000000004,"text":"當時也不斷的做澄清"},{"start":416.14000000000004,"end":417.14000000000004,"text":"對不對"},{"start":417.14000000000004,"end":419.14000000000004,"text":"部長當時外交部也澄清說"},{"start":419.14000000000004,"end":421.14000000000004,"text":"在那一次的談判當中"},{"start":421.14000000000004,"end":423.14000000000004,"text":"其實是不涉及所謂經濟海域的"},{"start":423.14000000000004,"end":425.14000000000004,"text":"那像面對這樣的狀況"},{"start":425.14000000000004,"end":427.14000000000004,"text":"尤其是中國"},{"start":427.14000000000004,"end":429.14000000000004,"text":"投入將近三千億"},{"start":429.24,"end":431.24,"text":"的媒體宣傳"},{"start":431.24,"end":433.24,"text":"甚至於一家中國日報"},{"start":433.24,"end":435.24,"text":"都可以數年來花六億"},{"start":435.24,"end":437.24,"text":"在買美國的媒體"},{"start":437.24,"end":439.24,"text":"那麼面對這種錯假訊息的時候"},{"start":439.24,"end":441.24,"text":"該怎麼應對"},{"start":441.24,"end":443.24,"text":"如果沒有宣傳費"},{"start":443.24,"end":445.24,"text":"宣傳費砍到零"},{"start":445.24,"end":447.24,"text":"陸委會沒有宣傳費"},{"start":447.24,"end":449.24,"text":"外交部沒有宣傳費"},{"start":449.24,"end":451.24,"text":"然後再加上裡應外合"},{"start":451.24,"end":453.24,"text":"那麼面對這種錯誤的訊息"},{"start":453.24,"end":455.24,"text":"我必須講哦"},{"start":455.24,"end":457.24,"text":"這個對於漁民來講"},{"start":457.34000000000003,"end":459.34000000000003,"text":"是會造成恐慌的"},{"start":459.34000000000003,"end":461.34000000000003,"text":"因為他們擔心他們接下來的"},{"start":461.34000000000003,"end":463.34000000000003,"text":"所謂作業的海域"},{"start":463.34000000000003,"end":465.34000000000003,"text":"是會被遭到限制"},{"start":465.34000000000003,"end":467.34000000000003,"text":"甚至於無法合法捕魚"},{"start":467.34000000000003,"end":469.34000000000003,"text":"但是對於台灣跟菲律賓之間"},{"start":469.34000000000003,"end":471.34000000000003,"text":"我們其實是有"},{"start":471.34000000000003,"end":473.34000000000003,"text":"台菲漁業執法的合作協定"},{"start":475.34000000000003,"end":477.34000000000003,"text":"台日也有漁業的作業協定"},{"start":477.34000000000003,"end":479.34000000000003,"text":"可是這些訊息"},{"start":479.34000000000003,"end":481.34000000000003,"text":"就會出不去啊"},{"start":481.34000000000003,"end":483.34000000000003,"text":"新聞稿有用嗎"},{"start":483.34000000000003,"end":485.34000000000003,"text":"而且國際上是不是"},{"start":485.44,"end":487.44,"text":"會對這樣的訊息錯誤帶了風向"},{"start":487.44,"end":489.44,"text":"因為中國正在加碼宣傳"},{"start":489.44,"end":491.44,"text":"所以我要問的是"},{"start":491.44,"end":493.44,"text":"面對這樣的狀況"},{"start":493.44,"end":495.44,"text":"外交部跟陸委會"},{"start":495.44,"end":497.44,"text":"那麼你們該怎麼來做"},{"start":497.44,"end":499.44,"text":"因為我必須要講哦"},{"start":499.44,"end":501.44,"text":"今天的報告特別提到的是"},{"start":501.44,"end":503.44,"text":"國際宣傳的時機"},{"start":503.44,"end":505.44,"text":"那麼顯然我相信"},{"start":505.44,"end":507.44,"text":"包括在我家內的國民黨委員"},{"start":507.44,"end":509.44,"text":"也都是同意要國際宣傳的"},{"start":509.44,"end":511.44,"text":"但是如果你們擁有經費了"},{"start":511.44,"end":513.4399999999999,"text":"你們要如何的"},{"start":513.5400000000001,"end":515.5400000000001,"text":"去做這樣的宣傳"},{"start":515.5400000000001,"end":517.5400000000001,"text":"而這樣的宣傳其實是捍衛"},{"start":517.5400000000001,"end":519.5400000000001,"text":"國家主權捍衛漁權"},{"start":519.5400000000001,"end":521.5400000000001,"text":"而且是第一線的"},{"start":521.5400000000001,"end":523.5400000000001,"text":"跟中國作戰"},{"start":523.5400000000001,"end":525.5400000000001,"text":"我會提出來這個事情是因為"},{"start":525.5400000000001,"end":527.5400000000001,"text":"血淋淋的教訓不只這一項"},{"start":527.5400000000001,"end":529.5400000000001,"text":"中國在做所謂認知作戰的"},{"start":529.5400000000001,"end":531.5400000000001,"text":"滲透甚至於"},{"start":531.5400000000001,"end":533.5400000000001,"text":"法律戰心理戰之外"},{"start":533.5400000000001,"end":535.5400000000001,"text":"他們是在灑金幣戰"},{"start":535.5400000000001,"end":537.5400000000001,"text":"那麼在這樣的"},{"start":537.5400000000001,"end":539.5400000000001,"text":"狀況底下我就請問"},{"start":539.5400000000001,"end":541.5400000000001,"text":"林部長還有"},{"start":541.64,"end":543.64,"text":"林副主委該怎麼樣應對"},{"start":545.64,"end":547.64,"text":"當然就是說"},{"start":547.64,"end":549.64,"text":"內容通路跟對象"},{"start":549.64,"end":551.64,"text":"我想宣傳"},{"start":551.64,"end":553.64,"text":"內容我們當然有嘛"},{"start":553.64,"end":555.64,"text":"可是如果你沒有通路"},{"start":555.64,"end":557.64,"text":"其實你有時候有些宣傳是針對特定的對象"},{"start":557.64,"end":559.64,"text":"是要投射"},{"start":559.64,"end":561.64,"text":"不能說我自己用我的社群媒體"},{"start":561.64,"end":563.64,"text":"然後全世界都來看沒有那麼"},{"start":563.64,"end":564.64,"text":"影響力"},{"start":564.64,"end":566.64,"text":"所以確實在宣傳上是要很精準"},{"start":566.64,"end":568.64,"text":"而這個是有一部分"},{"start":568.64,"end":570.64,"text":"會真的是跟媒宣的"},{"start":570.74,"end":572.74,"text":"投射"},{"start":572.74,"end":574.74,"text":"是需要預算的"},{"start":574.74,"end":576.74,"text":"你才能在很快的時間裡面"},{"start":576.74,"end":578.74,"text":"很精準的傳達"},{"start":578.74,"end":580.74,"text":"所以戰略溝通是"},{"start":580.74,"end":582.74,"text":"但宣傳是不可免的"},{"start":582.74,"end":584.74,"text":"這個部分我想"},{"start":584.74,"end":586.74,"text":"民主時代就是資訊"},{"start":586.74,"end":588.74,"text":"因為人民他做到的資訊會決定他的"},{"start":588.74,"end":590.74,"text":"判斷比如第一時間"},{"start":590.74,"end":592.74,"text":"這個其實你看中共的反應這麼快"},{"start":592.74,"end":594.74,"text":"包括武警傳包括所有"},{"start":594.74,"end":596.74,"text":"事實上他早就在我們東岸"},{"start":596.74,"end":598.74,"text":"在出路他現在"},{"start":598.84,"end":600.84,"text":"用這個中醫做理由又擴張"},{"start":600.84,"end":602.84,"text":"我們就變Defensive"},{"start":602.84,"end":604.84,"text":"因為我們好像我們是不是被批准狀況外"},{"start":604.84,"end":606.84,"text":"事實上當然其實他們也都有講"},{"start":606.84,"end":608.84,"text":"這不涉及第三方"},{"start":608.84,"end":610.84,"text":"我們跟日飛之間也有我們的漁權"},{"start":610.84,"end":612.84,"text":"談判的協議等等"},{"start":612.84,"end":614.84,"text":"但是講不清楚"},{"start":614.84,"end":616.84,"text":"我們就是沒有這樣的一個很快速可以精準"},{"start":616.84,"end":618.84,"text":"投射去做"},{"start":618.84,"end":620.84,"text":"媒宣這樣的預算的話"},{"start":620.84,"end":622.84,"text":"我們的影響力當然"},{"start":622.84,"end":624.84,"text":"其實決戰可能就在第一瞬間"},{"start":624.84,"end":626.84,"text":"因為人們的印象一形成之後"},{"start":626.94,"end":628.94,"text":"再多要去解釋其實都很難"},{"start":628.94,"end":630.94,"text":"因為新的議題又來了"},{"start":630.94,"end":632.94,"text":"沒錯 外審本席會特別提這一題"},{"start":632.94,"end":634.94,"text":"因為這一題在6月初的時候"},{"start":634.94,"end":636.94,"text":"其實是"},{"start":636.94,"end":638.94,"text":"在5月28號"},{"start":638.94,"end":640.94,"text":"日飛談判之後6月初"},{"start":640.94,"end":642.94,"text":"其實被繳了一尺"},{"start":642.94,"end":644.94,"text":"非常大的新聞操作"},{"start":644.94,"end":646.94,"text":"但是事實上現在再來回顧"},{"start":646.94,"end":648.94,"text":"很多人忘記了"},{"start":648.94,"end":650.94,"text":"但是他的既知影響已經認為是不是"},{"start":650.94,"end":652.94,"text":"日飛已經親門踏戶"},{"start":652.94,"end":654.94,"text":"最後給一點時間給陸委會"},{"start":654.94,"end":657.0400000000001,"text":"現在請陸委會回應"},{"start":685.0400000000001,"end":687.0400000000001,"text":"有利於他們的這種所謂的新聞跟訊息"},{"start":687.0400000000001,"end":689.0400000000001,"text":"未來就會變成是他們的資料庫"},{"start":689.0400000000001,"end":691.0400000000001,"text":"放在AI上面"},{"start":691.0400000000001,"end":693.0400000000001,"text":"讓提供給國際的社會來去做運用"},{"start":693.0400000000001,"end":695.0400000000001,"text":"所以如果在這個部分我們安靜了"},{"start":695.0400000000001,"end":697.0400000000001,"text":"或者這個部分我們沒有辦法適時的回應的話"},{"start":697.0400000000001,"end":699.0400000000001,"text":"在整個網路的世界上"},{"start":699.0400000000001,"end":701.0400000000001,"text":"在整個AI的這個輿情上面來講"},{"start":701.0400000000001,"end":703.0400000000001,"text":"就會對台灣非常的不利"},{"start":703.0400000000001,"end":705.0400000000001,"text":"那陸委會這邊建議幾個基本的做法"},{"start":705.0400000000001,"end":707.0400000000001,"text":"就是說我們對內的部分來講"},{"start":707.0400000000001,"end":709.0400000000001,"text":"還是要加大對於國人的一個試讀"},{"start":709.0400000000001,"end":711.0400000000001,"text":"就是有一些訊息的來源或者訊息的真偽"},{"start":711.0400000000001,"end":713.0400000000001,"text":"應該要持續的告訴國人說"},{"start":713.14,"end":715.14,"text":"要盡可能去多一些這個這個了解"},{"start":715.14,"end":717.14,"text":"再來第二個在國際上來說的話"},{"start":717.14,"end":719.14,"text":"我們有兩個做法"},{"start":719.14,"end":721.14,"text":"第一個是我們要尋找更多可以合作的夥伴"},{"start":721.14,"end":723.14,"text":"不一定是媒體本身"},{"start":723.14,"end":725.14,"text":"也包含像是國會議員有很多的友台小組"},{"start":725.14,"end":727.14,"text":"他們都可以在適當的時候替我們來講話"},{"start":727.14,"end":729.14,"text":"所以我們需要多多的跟他們來做溝通跟聯繫"},{"start":729.14,"end":731.14,"text":"那再來第三個的話"},{"start":731.14,"end":733.14,"text":"就是我們要掌握我們自己特有的這個資源"},{"start":733.14,"end":735.14,"text":"全世界現在都想了解兩岸"},{"start":735.14,"end":737.14,"text":"都想了解中國"},{"start":737.14,"end":739.14,"text":"最了解中國的是台灣"},{"start":739.14,"end":741.14,"text":"所以當我們有掌握到這個獨門資源的時候"},{"start":741.24,"end":743.24,"text":"我們大家想要透過了解中國"},{"start":743.24,"end":745.24,"text":"然後來跟台灣接觸"},{"start":745.24,"end":747.24,"text":"這個時候我們就有講話的機會"},{"start":747.24,"end":749.24,"text":"所以我們也非常希望這個大院可以支持我們"},{"start":749.24,"end":751.24,"text":"多多的在這個宣傳也好"},{"start":751.24,"end":753.24,"text":"或者說這個國際交流"},{"start":753.24,"end":755.24,"text":"或者說對於中國的國情的研發研究也好"},{"start":755.24,"end":757.24,"text":"的這個經費可以手下留情"},{"start":757.24,"end":759.24,"text":"好 本席特別要強調"},{"start":759.24,"end":761.24,"text":"台灣不是中國的一部分"},{"start":761.24,"end":763.24,"text":"這個部分其實他花三千億"},{"start":763.24,"end":765.24,"text":"在做宣傳"},{"start":765.24,"end":767.24,"text":"甚至於一家中國的媒體可以花六億"},{"start":767.24,"end":769.24,"text":"去買美國的媒體"},{"start":769.34,"end":771.34,"text":"他其實就是要用"},{"start":771.34,"end":773.34,"text":"所謂宣傳的方式掩蓋台灣"},{"start":773.34,"end":775.34,"text":"讓台灣沒辦法發聲"},{"start":775.34,"end":777.34,"text":"所以兩個部會就只能再辛苦一點了"},{"start":777.34,"end":779.34,"text":"加油 好 謝謝"},{"start":779.34,"end":781.34,"text":"拜託 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:12:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:12:31.265000+08:00","text":"主席，謝謝，有請陸委會沈副主委，我們先讓林佳龍林部長休息一下，稍後也會問到林部長。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:12:31.265000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:12:36.648571+08:00","text":"請陸委會。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:12:36.648571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:12:37.077143+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:12:38.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:12:49.189231+08:00","text":"副主委，我們今天講到媒宣，因為陸委會是主管中國事務，所以你知道中共每年砸多少錢在進行全球的大外宣行銷嗎？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:12:49.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:12:50.512000+08:00","text":"你有數字嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:12:50.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:13:19.250000+08:00","text":"我們基本上能夠掌握到大概也都是中共官方公布的數據，但沒有公布的數字恐怕是更高，譬如說以人員為例的話，我們陸委會編制就是兩百多人，我們知道中共的對臺事務人員差不多就有將近數十萬人，在預算上來講，他們更宣稱統戰是無上限，所以包含媒宣或包含其他議題，我們粗估相關經費遠遠高過於我們這邊。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:13:19.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:13:36.976667+08:00","text":"好，我給你一個數字，這是我從自由時報找到的，是在今年3月的報導，中國全球的行銷費高達70億美元到100億美元，言下之意，換算臺幣大概就是2,240億到3,200億，陸委會一年的宣傳預算多少？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:13:37.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:13:38.360000+08:00","text":"宣傳的部分就好。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:13:38.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:13:41.177778+08:00","text":"我們的媒宣費一年大概就是一千多萬。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:13:41.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:13:45.600000+08:00","text":"好，真的果然是小蝦米對大鯨魚，這是幾百分之一。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:13:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:13:54.180000+08:00","text":"但是我要提到的是我們今天談到的已經是勢力上的不對等，結果你們還被砍光光。是。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:13:54.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:14:15.533333+08:00","text":"但是我要先就事實詢問，因為我知道陸委會最近不斷公布國人赴中，尤其是具有軍公教身分的時候就會被盤查，但是現在竟然有媒體說這是個假消息，你們真的很慘，媒宣費被砍光就算了，你們現在公布的新聞稿還被媒體說是假消息，這到底是真的還假的？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:14:15.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:14:40.152000+08:00","text":"因為也有人來跟我陳情，他本身是高階軍官的家屬，他只是家屬，中共竟然以他入住投宿之後小孩沒有登記身分證，然後他就隨便報了一個身分證，結果這個盤查的單位居然說這個身分證不對，他整個嚇到！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:14:40.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:14:50.873333+08:00","text":"我要問的就是現在我們的高階將領是不是不只是他的個資全都外洩，連他的親屬、他的家人的個資都外洩，都遭到查核嗎？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:14:51.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:14:54.667500+08:00","text":"中國掌控臺灣的資訊已經到這麼嚴重嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:14:54.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:15:18.901429+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，說實話，這個東西不是個案，它應該是一個系統性的風險正在逐步提高當中，所以包含像是媒體報導的高階軍官子女的部分，還有前一陣子我們掌握到的像是兩位警察的部分，甚至在更早以前有法官的部分，我們發現他們入境之後就直接被特定的單位帶走盤查，甚至是到他們下榻的房間詢問。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:15:19.223636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:15:33.422222+08:00","text":"問的問題都非常專業，而且都非常針對性，顯然他們事前就已經掌握到要入境的這些人的背景、過去服務的單位甚至他們工作的對象，所以才會問非常到位的問題，表示他們是有備而來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:15:33.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:15:53.142353+08:00","text":"所以陸委會在此也還是會針對特定人士暴露風險的部分提醒國人，包含像是從事國安單位或者是安全單位的一些公務人員，另外還有特定的宗教人士，現在非必要的話請勿前往陸、港、澳地區，這個還是陸委會基本的政策。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:15:53.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:16:17.540000+08:00","text":"好，其實我認為面對中國所謂的不論是法律戰、心理戰，甚至於實質的把手伸進臺灣的滲透，我想其實在國防外交委員會的委員，因為還有其他的單位包括國安局會來報告，我們都非常清楚，面對這樣的消息我覺得揭露是最重要的，所以本席還是鼓勵陸委會必須定期把這樣的資訊讓國人知道。是。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:16:18.085455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:16:21.254286+08:00","text":"主席，有請外交部林佳龍部長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席（馬委員文君）","start":"2026-07-22T10:16:21.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:16:22.206667+08:00","text":"請林部長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:16:24.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:16:25.940000+08:00","text":"沈副主委請稍候。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:16:26.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:16:40.290000+08:00","text":"我剛剛特別問到中國大外宣，其實不要講大外宣，他們做宣傳一年要用2,240億到3,000億之間的宣傳費。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:16:41.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:17:07.440000+08:00","text":"因為本席來自媒體，所以本席有特別去查，中國一家官媒叫做中國日報，它在2016年到2020年向美國媒體支付的廣告費就高達新臺幣6.08億元，一間官媒都可以向美國支付廣告費，部長，你認為它為什麼要支付廣告費？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:17:07.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:17:10.467273+08:00","text":"為什麼官媒還要去買媒體？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:17:11.285455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:17:29.540000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們現在的外館共111個，很多外館都面對中共大使不斷的在最大報刊登宣傳，有時候甚至是用半版或更多的版面發表他們的立場或聲明，我們當然也會反駁，不過聲量相對來講當然就沒有那麼大。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:17:30.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:17:50.476364+08:00","text":"我們的北美司司長……在美國如果有那些情形，我們真的沒有辦法做這些宣傳廣告，因為單單我們日常運作的費用其實……現在美國由13個變成14個館，其實基本上幾乎都只能夠透過其他免費的方式，或是製造新聞……","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:17:50.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:17:52.554286+08:00","text":"所以部長發臉書。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:17:52.554286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:17:53.554286+08:00","text":"對，社群媒體。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:17:53.203636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:18:11.340000+08:00","text":"陸委會副主委發臉書，今天聽說股市開盤還漲了一千多點這樣一個經濟蓬勃的實體──臺灣，居然要求部會首長去發臉書，我覺得你們去當網紅就好了，在野黨委員怎麼會有這樣的提案？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:18:11.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:18:11.840000+08:00","text":"我無法理解。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:18:12.384444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:18:24.690000+08:00","text":"回到嚴肅的話題，就以前一陣子日、菲針對他們專屬經濟海域談判的背後，現在事實已經被揭露了，其實帶風向的背後有中國的認知戰。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:18:24.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:19:02.817778+08:00","text":"事實上部長你非常清楚，在美、日談判當中根本沒有提到經濟海域，但是網路上所傳的這個圖片根本就是假消息，它用的是美國智庫針對各國經濟海域所套上的一張圖，它特別只放上日本及菲律賓的，但是故意略去臺灣的經濟海域，就用這種假消息的方式做法律戰、認知戰，其實是企圖掩蓋當時中國騷擾我們東部海域，等於是裡應外合的方式。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:19:03.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:19:19.806667+08:00","text":"但可悲的是我們國內有媒體及在野黨的政治人物配合操作，這明明就是一個假圖、假訊息，我想不只陸委會，包括外交部當時也不斷的做澄清，對不對？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:19:20.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:19:25.832308+08:00","text":"部長，當時外交部有澄清，該次的談判當中其實不涉及所謂經濟海域。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:19:26.584444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:19:43.840000+08:00","text":"面對這樣的狀況，尤其是中國投入將近3,000億的媒體宣傳，甚至一家中國日報數年來都可以花6億買美國的媒體，那麼面對這種錯假訊息的時候，該怎麼應對？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:19:44.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:20:10.117778+08:00","text":"如果沒有宣傳費、宣傳費砍到零，陸委會沒有宣傳費，外交部也沒有宣傳費，再加上裡應外合面對這種錯誤的訊息，我必須講，這個部分對於漁民而言會造成恐慌，因為他們擔心接下來作業的海域會遭到限制，甚至無法合法捕魚。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:20:10.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:20:26.006667+08:00","text":"但是對於臺灣與菲律賓之間，我們其實有臺菲漁業執法的合作協定，臺日也有漁業的作業協定，可是這些訊息會出不去，新聞稿有用嗎？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:20:26.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:20:30.286154+08:00","text":"而且國際上是不是就會被這樣的錯誤訊息帶了風向？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:20:30.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:20:40.217778+08:00","text":"因為中國正在加碼宣傳，所以我要問的是，面對這樣的狀況外交部及陸委會該怎麼做？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:20:40.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:20:58.254286+08:00","text":"我必須要講，今天的報告特別提到國際宣傳的時機，很顯然的，我相信包括召委在內的國民黨委員也都同意要國際宣傳，但是如果你們擁有經費了，你們要如何去做這樣的宣傳？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:20:58.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:21:18.290000+08:00","text":"而這樣的宣傳其實是捍衛國家主權、捍衛漁權，而且是在第一線跟中國作戰，我會提出來這件事情是因為血淋淋的教訓不只這一項，中國在做所謂認知作戰的滲透，甚至於法律戰、心理戰之外，他們是在撒金幣戰。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:21:19.206667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:21:26.440000+08:00","text":"在這樣的狀況底下，我請問林部長還有沈副主委該如何應對？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:21:30.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:22:27.722353+08:00","text":"有關宣傳的內容、通路及對象，宣傳的內容我們當然有，可是問題是沒有通路，其實有時候宣傳是需要針對特定的對象投射，不能只用自己的社群媒體卻希望全世界都來看，沒有那個影響力，所以確實在宣傳上要很精準，有一部分真的跟媒宣的投射有關，是需要預算的，你才能在很快的時間內很精準的傳達，屬於戰略溝通是一回事，但宣傳是不可免的，這個部分我想民主時代資訊很重要，因為人民收到的資訊會決定他的判斷，比如你看中共第一時間的反應這麼快，包括武警船、包括所有……事實上他早就在我們東岸出入，他現在就用這個東西做為理由又擴張，我們就變成defensive，因為我們好像被批評為狀況外。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:22:28.609231+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:22:53.717778+08:00","text":"其實他們也都有講這不涉及第三方，我們跟日菲之間也有漁權談判協議等等，但是講不清楚，因為我們沒有這樣一個很快速，可以精準投射做媒宣的預算的話，我們的影響力當然……其實決戰可能就在第一瞬間，因為人們的印象一旦形成後，你後續再去多做解釋，其實都很難改變，因為新的議題又來了。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:22:53.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:23:15.690000+08:00","text":"沒錯，為什麼本席會特別提這一題，因為在5月28號日菲談判之後，6月初其實被攪了一池非常大的新聞操作，但是現在回顧，事實上很多人忘記了，但是他的既定印象已經認為日菲是不是已經侵門踏戶。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:23:15.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:23:19.777500+08:00","text":"最後一點時間給陸委會，不好意思主席，再請陸委會回應。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:23:19.777500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:23:37.908750+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:23:37.908750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:23:56.040000+08:00","text":"我大概花1分鐘的時間稍微提醒一下，前陣子我們有注意到習近平出席了上海的世界AI大會，他提到未來中國在AI要跟全球南方國家合作開源、開放，他的開源指的是他們會製造更多的訊息開放給這些南方國家做運用，目標還是要宣傳他的一中原則，所以中國未來在一些訊息認知戰上面會用更多的宣傳，就回到委員您剛剛提到的，他們有非常多的經費可以製造很多有利於他們的新聞及訊息，未來就會變成是他們放在AI上面的資料庫，提供給國際社會運用。","quality":0.176},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:23:56.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:24:05.840000+08:00","text":"所以如果在這個部分我們安靜了或者我們沒有辦法適時地回應的話，在整個網路世界及整個AI的輿情方面就會對臺灣非常不利。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:24:06.173333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:24:17.997143+08:00","text":"陸委會建議幾個基本的做法，對內的部分還是要加大對於國人的識讀，有些訊息的來源或者訊息的真偽應該要持續地告訴國人盡可能多做一些了解。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:24:18.447692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:24:32.034737+08:00","text":"第二個，在國際上有兩個做法：第一，我們要尋找更多可以合作的夥伴，不一定是媒體本身，也包含像是國會議員、很多的友臺小組，他們都可以在適當的時候替我們講話，所以我們需要多跟他們溝通及聯繫。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-22T10:24:32.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:25:00.240000+08:00","text":"再來第二，我們要掌握自己特有的資源，現在全世界都想了解兩岸、都想了解中國，最了解中國的是臺灣，所以當我們掌握到這個獨門資源的時候，可以讓更多國家想要透過我們了解中國進而跟臺灣接觸，這個時候我們就有講話的機會，所以我們也非常希望大院可以支持我們，無論是在宣傳也好、國際交流也好，或者對於中國國情研究的經費可以手下留情。好。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-22T10:25:00.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:25:20.740000+08:00","text":"本席特別要強調，臺灣不是中國的一部分，這個部分他花3,000億在做宣傳，甚至於一家中國的媒體可以花6億去買美國的媒體，他其實就是要用所謂宣傳的方式來掩蓋臺灣，讓臺灣沒辦法發聲，所以兩個部會就只能再辛苦一點了，加油！","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:25:21.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:25:23.840000+08:00","text":"好，拜託！謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:25:24.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:25:28.054286+08:00","text":"接下來請黃建賓委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":205,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時12分）主席，謝謝，有請陸委會沈副主委，我們先讓林佳龍林部長休息一下，稍後也會問到林部長。"],["主席：請陸委會。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：副主委，我們今天講到媒宣，因為陸委會是主管中國事務，所以你知道中共每年砸多少錢在進行全球的大外宣行銷嗎？你有數字嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我們基本上能夠掌握到大概也都是中共官方公布的數據，但沒有公布的數字恐怕是更高，譬如說以人員為例的話，我們陸委會編制就是兩百多人，我們知道中共的對臺事務人員差不多就有將近數十萬人，在預算上來講，他們更宣稱統戰是無上限，所以包含媒宣或包含其他議題，我們粗估相關經費遠遠高過於我們這邊。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我給你一個數字，這是我從自由時報找到的，是在今年3月的報導，中國全球的行銷費高達70億美元到100億美元，言下之意，換算臺幣大概就是2,240億到3,200億，陸委會一年的宣傳預算多少？宣傳的部分就好。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我們的媒宣費一年大概就是一千多萬。"],["林委員楚茵：好，真的果然是小蝦米對大鯨魚，這是幾百分之一。但是我要提到的是我們今天談到的已經是勢力上的不對等，結果你們還被砍光光。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["林委員楚茵：但是我要先就事實詢問，因為我知道陸委會最近不斷公布國人赴中，尤其是具有軍公教身分的時候就會被盤查，但是現在竟然有媒體說這是個假消息，你們真的很慘，媒宣費被砍光就算了，你們現在公布的新聞稿還被媒體說是假消息，這到底是真的還假的？因為也有人來跟我陳情，他本身是高階軍官的家屬，他只是家屬，中共竟然以他入住投宿之後小孩沒有登記身分證，然後他就隨便報了一個身分證，結果這個盤查的單位居然說這個身分證不對，他整個嚇到！我要問的就是現在我們的高階將領是不是不只是他的個資全都外洩，連他的親屬、他的家人的個資都外洩，都遭到查核嗎？中國掌控臺灣的資訊已經到這麼嚴重嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：跟委員報告，說實話，這個東西不是個案，它應該是一個系統性的風險正在逐步提高當中，所以包含像是媒體報導的高階軍官子女的部分，還有前一陣子我們掌握到的像是兩位警察的部分，甚至在更早以前有法官的部分，我們發現他們入境之後就直接被特定的單位帶走盤查，甚至是到他們下榻的房間詢問。問的問題都非常專業，而且都非常針對性，顯然他們事前就已經掌握到要入境的這些人的背景、過去服務的單位甚至他們工作的對象，所以才會問非常到位的問題，表示他們是有備而來。","所以陸委會在此也還是會針對特定人士暴露風險的部分提醒國人，包含像是從事國安單位或者是安全單位的一些公務人員，另外還有特定的宗教人士，現在非必要的話請勿前往陸、港、澳地區，這個還是陸委會基本的政策。"],["林委員楚茵：好，其實我認為面對中國所謂的不論是法律戰、心理戰，甚至於實質的把手伸進臺灣的滲透，我想其實在國防外交委員會的委員，因為還有其他的單位包括國安局會來報告，我們都非常清楚，面對這樣的消息我覺得揭露是最重要的，所以本席還是鼓勵陸委會必須定期把這樣的資訊讓國人知道。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好。主席，有請外交部林佳龍部長。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：請林部長。"],["林委員楚茵：沈副主委請稍候。我剛剛特別問到中國大外宣，其實不要講大外宣，他們做宣傳一年要用2,240億到3,000億之間的宣傳費。因為本席來自媒體，所以本席有特別去查，中國一家官媒叫做中國日報，它在2016年到2020年向美國媒體支付的廣告費就高達新臺幣6.08億元，一間官媒都可以向美國支付廣告費，部長，你認為它為什麼要支付廣告費？為什麼官媒還要去買媒體？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，我們現在的外館共111個，很多外館都面對中共大使不斷的在最大報刊登宣傳，有時候甚至是用半版或更多的版面發表他們的立場或聲明，我們當然也會反駁，不過聲量相對來講當然就沒有那麼大。我們的北美司司長……在美國如果有那些情形，我們真的沒有辦法做這些宣傳廣告，因為單單我們日常運作的費用其實……現在美國由13個變成14個館，其實基本上幾乎都只能夠透過其他免費的方式，或是製造新聞……"],["林委員楚茵：所以部長發臉書。"],["林部長佳龍：對，社群媒體。"],["林委員楚茵：陸委會副主委發臉書，今天聽說股市開盤還漲了一千多點這樣一個經濟蓬勃的實體──臺灣，居然要求部會首長去發臉書，我覺得你們去當網紅就好了，在野黨委員怎麼會有這樣的提案？我無法理解。","回到嚴肅的話題，就以前一陣子日、菲針對他們專屬經濟海域談判的背後，現在事實已經被揭露了，其實帶風向的背後有中國的認知戰。事實上部長你非常清楚，在美、日談判當中根本沒有提到經濟海域，但是網路上所傳的這個圖片根本就是假消息，它用的是美國智庫針對各國經濟海域所套上的一張圖，它特別只放上日本及菲律賓的，但是故意略去臺灣的經濟海域，就用這種假消息的方式做法律戰、認知戰，其實是企圖掩蓋當時中國騷擾我們東部海域，等於是裡應外合的方式。但可悲的是我們國內有媒體及在野黨的政治人物配合操作，這明明就是一個假圖、假訊息，我想不只陸委會，包括外交部當時也不斷的做澄清，對不對？部長，當時外交部有澄清，該次的談判當中其實不涉及所謂經濟海域。","面對這樣的狀況，尤其是中國投入將近3,000億的媒體宣傳，甚至一家中國日報數年來都可以花6億買美國的媒體，那麼面對這種錯假訊息的時候，該怎麼應對？如果沒有宣傳費、宣傳費砍到零，陸委會沒有宣傳費，外交部也沒有宣傳費，再加上裡應外合面對這種錯誤的訊息，我必須講，這個部分對於漁民而言會造成恐慌，因為他們擔心接下來作業的海域會遭到限制，甚至無法合法捕魚。但是對於臺灣與菲律賓之間，我們其實有臺菲漁業執法的合作協定，臺日也有漁業的作業協定，可是這些訊息會出不去，新聞稿有用嗎？而且國際上是不是就會被這樣的錯誤訊息帶了風向？因為中國正在加碼宣傳，所以我要問的是，面對這樣的狀況外交部及陸委會該怎麼做？","我必須要講，今天的報告特別提到國際宣傳的時機，很顯然的，我相信包括召委在內的國民黨委員也都同意要國際宣傳，但是如果你們擁有經費了，你們要如何去做這樣的宣傳？而這樣的宣傳其實是捍衛國家主權、捍衛漁權，而且是在第一線跟中國作戰，我會提出來這件事情是因為血淋淋的教訓不只這一項，中國在做所謂認知作戰的滲透，甚至於法律戰、心理戰之外，他們是在撒金幣戰。在這樣的狀況底下，我請問林部長還有沈副主委該如何應對？"],["林部長佳龍：有關宣傳的內容、通路及對象，宣傳的內容我們當然有，可是問題是沒有通路，其實有時候宣傳是需要針對特定的對象投射，不能只用自己的社群媒體卻希望全世界都來看，沒有那個影響力，所以確實在宣傳上要很精準，有一部分真的跟媒宣的投射有關，是需要預算的，你才能在很快的時間內很精準的傳達，屬於戰略溝通是一回事，但宣傳是不可免的，這個部分我想民主時代資訊很重要，因為人民收到的資訊會決定他的判斷，比如你看中共第一時間的反應這麼快，包括武警船、包括所有……事實上他早就在我們東岸出入，他現在就用這個東西做為理由又擴張，我們就變成defensive，因為我們好像被批評為狀況外。其實他們也都有講這不涉及第三方，我們跟日菲之間也有漁權談判協議等等，但是講不清楚，因為我們沒有這樣一個很快速，可以精準投射做媒宣的預算的話，我們的影響力當然……其實決戰可能就在第一瞬間，因為人們的印象一旦形成後，你後續再去多做解釋，其實都很難改變，因為新的議題又來了。"],["林委員楚茵：沒錯，為什麼本席會特別提這一題，因為在5月28號日菲談判之後，6月初其實被攪了一池非常大的新聞操作，但是現在回顧，事實上很多人忘記了，但是他的既定印象已經認為日菲是不是已經侵門踏戶。最後一點時間給陸委會，不好意思主席，再請陸委會回應。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是，謝謝委員。我大概花1分鐘的時間稍微提醒一下，前陣子我們有注意到習近平出席了上海的世界AI大會，他提到未來中國在AI要跟全球南方國家合作開源、開放，他的開源指的是他們會製造更多的訊息開放給這些南方國家做運用，目標還是要宣傳他的一中原則，所以中國未來在一些訊息認知戰上面會用更多的宣傳，就回到委員您剛剛提到的，他們有非常多的經費可以製造很多有利於他們的新聞及訊息，未來就會變成是他們放在AI上面的資料庫，提供給國際社會運用。所以如果在這個部分我們安靜了或者我們沒有辦法適時地回應的話，在整個網路世界及整個AI的輿情方面就會對臺灣非常不利。","陸委會建議幾個基本的做法，對內的部分還是要加大對於國人的識讀，有些訊息的來源或者訊息的真偽應該要持續地告訴國人盡可能多做一些了解。第二個，在國際上有兩個做法：第一，我們要尋找更多可以合作的夥伴，不一定是媒體本身，也包含像是國會議員、很多的友臺小組，他們都可以在適當的時候替我們講話，所以我們需要多跟他們溝通及聯繫。再來第二，我們要掌握自己特有的資源，現在全世界都想了解兩岸、都想了解中國，最了解中國的是臺灣，所以當我們掌握到這個獨門資源的時候，可以讓更多國家想要透過我們了解中國進而跟臺灣接觸，這個時候我們就有講話的機會，所以我們也非常希望大院可以支持我們，無論是在宣傳也好、國際交流也好，或者對於中國國情研究的經費可以手下留情。"],["林委員楚茵：好。本席特別要強調，臺灣不是中國的一部分，這個部分他花3,000億在做宣傳，甚至於一家中國的媒體可以花6億去買美國的媒體，他其實就是要用所謂宣傳的方式來掩蓋臺灣，讓臺灣沒辦法發聲，所以兩個部會就只能再辛苦一點了，加油！"],["林部長佳龍：好，拜託！謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請黃建賓委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-28","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","王義川","林楚茵","黃建賓","王安祥","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","許忠信","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","黃仁","沈伯洋"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2026-07-22"],"gazette_id":"1156601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「我國近年針對南海主權與法律地位之國際宣傳實績成效暨如何應對\n周邊國家擴大主權國際宣傳之具體反制策略」，併請海洋委員會、大陸委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156601_00015"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}