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有請陸委會省副主委"},{"start":2.44,"end":5,"text":"我們先讓這個林佳和林部長休息一下"},{"start":5,"end":5.9,"text":"等一下稍後"},{"start":5.9,"end":6.66,"text":"副主委請"},{"start":6.66,"end":8.8,"text":"也會問到林部長 對"},{"start":10.64,"end":11.14,"text":"好"},{"start":11.88,"end":12.38,"text":"副主委"},{"start":12.38,"end":13.22,"text":"趕快喝水喔"},{"start":13.22,"end":14.22,"text":"是不是謝謝委員"},{"start":14.22,"end":14.72,"text":"呃"},{"start":15.22,"end":16.82,"text":"我們今天講到這個梅宣喔"},{"start":16.82,"end":20.22,"text":"因為陸委會是主管這個中國事務"},{"start":20.22,"end":21.62,"text":"所以說你知道"},{"start":21.62,"end":23.42,"text":"中共每年砸多少權"},{"start":23.42,"end":26.42,"text":"在進行全球的大外宣的行銷嗎"},{"start":26.42,"end":26.92,"text":"嗯"},{"start":26.92,"end":27.66,"text":"你有數字嗎"},{"start":27.96,"end":29.3,"text":"我們基本上能夠掌握的"},{"start":29.32,"end":31.66,"text":"大概也都是中共官方公布的這個數據"},{"start":31.66,"end":32.6,"text":"但基本上可能"},{"start":32.6,"end":35.2,"text":"他沒有公布的這個數字恐怕是更高"},{"start":35.2,"end":37.24,"text":"所以以譬如說以人員為例的話"},{"start":37.24,"end":39.88,"text":"像我們陸委會大概編制就是兩百多人喔"},{"start":39.88,"end":40.84,"text":"那我們知道"},{"start":40.84,"end":42.28,"text":"中共的這個對台事務的話"},{"start":42.28,"end":45.04,"text":"他的人員就有差不多將近數十萬人"},{"start":45.04,"end":46.24,"text":"那在預算上來講的話"},{"start":46.24,"end":48.82,"text":"他們更是宣稱說統戰是無上限"},{"start":48.82,"end":50.72,"text":"所以包含像梅宣啦"},{"start":50.72,"end":52.16,"text":"或包含像其他這個議題來講"},{"start":52.16,"end":53.36,"text":"我們我們我們出估啦"},{"start":53.36,"end":54.38,"text":"他的這個經費"},{"start":54.38,"end":56.42,"text":"大概遠遠是高過於我們這邊"},{"start":56.42,"end":57.620000000000005,"text":"好 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這真的果然是小蝦米對大鯨魚啦"},{"start":81.4,"end":83,"text":"這是幾百分之一啦"},{"start":83,"end":84.64,"text":"但是我要提到的是"},{"start":85.16,"end":87.3,"text":"我們今天談到的這種"},{"start":87.3,"end":89.74,"text":"所謂已經是勢力上的不對等"},{"start":89.74,"end":91.54,"text":"結果你們還被砍光光啦"},{"start":91.54,"end":94.54,"text":"但是我要先來就事實來做詢問"},{"start":94.54,"end":95.38,"text":"因為呢"},{"start":95.38,"end":97.24,"text":"我知道陸委會最近不斷的在公布"},{"start":97.24,"end":98.68,"text":"就是國人腹中"},{"start":98.68,"end":101.02,"text":"尤其是具有軍公教身份的時候"},{"start":101.02,"end":102.34,"text":"就會被盤查"},{"start":102.34,"end":103.82,"text":"但是現在竟然有媒體說"},{"start":103.82,"end":105.46000000000001,"text":"這個是個假消息"},{"start":105.46000000000001,"end":106.78,"text":"你們真的很慘耶"},{"start":106.78,"end":108.66,"text":"梅宣費被砍光就算了"},{"start":108.66,"end":109.96000000000001,"text":"你們現在公布新聞稿"},{"start":109.96000000000001,"end":111.52,"text":"還被媒體說是假消息"},{"start":111.52,"end":112.66,"text":"這到底是真的還假的"},{"start":112.67999999999999,"end":114.88,"text":"因為也有人來跟我陳情喔"},{"start":114.88,"end":118.28,"text":"就說他本身是高階軍官的家屬"},{"start":118.28,"end":120.46,"text":"結果他只是家屬"},{"start":120.46,"end":123.25999999999999,"text":"中共既然是已說"},{"start":123.25999999999999,"end":125.6,"text":"他入住投訴之後"},{"start":125.6,"end":128.4,"text":"他的小孩沒有登記身份證"},{"start":128.4,"end":130.8,"text":"然後他就隨便報了一個身份證"},{"start":130.8,"end":133,"text":"結果這個盤查的單位居然說"},{"start":133,"end":136,"text":"欸 這個身份證不對耶"},{"start":136,"end":137.44,"text":"他整個嚇到"},{"start":137.44,"end":138.54,"text":"我要問的就是"},{"start":138.54,"end":141.04,"text":"現在我們高階將領是不是整個"},{"start":141.06,"end":143.29999999999998,"text":"不只是他的個資全都外洩"},{"start":143.29999999999998,"end":144.29999999999998,"text":"連他的親屬"},{"start":144.29999999999998,"end":146.44,"text":"他的家人的個資都外洩"},{"start":146.44,"end":148.16,"text":"都遭到查核嗎"},{"start":148.16,"end":150.04,"text":"中國掌控台灣的資訊"},{"start":150.04,"end":151.89999999999998,"text":"一定要這麼嚴重嗎"},{"start":151.89999999999998,"end":153,"text":"跟委員報告說說"},{"start":153,"end":154.94,"text":"基本上這個東西不是個案喔"},{"start":154.94,"end":156.48,"text":"它應該是一個系統性的風險"},{"start":156.48,"end":158.28,"text":"正在逐步的提高當中"},{"start":158.28,"end":160.38,"text":"所以包含像是媒體報導出來的"},{"start":160.38,"end":163.48,"text":"這個高階軍官的子女的部分"},{"start":163.48,"end":164.92,"text":"還有前一陣子我們掌握到的"},{"start":164.92,"end":166.92,"text":"像是兩位警察的這個部分"},{"start":166.92,"end":169.06,"text":"甚至在更早以前有法官的這個部分"},{"start":169.08,"end":171.08,"text":"我們都發現到他們入境之後"},{"start":171.08,"end":173.58,"text":"就直接被特定的單位給帶走盤查"},{"start":173.58,"end":176.08,"text":"甚至是到他們下大的環境去詢問"},{"start":176.08,"end":177.66,"text":"那問的問題都非常的專業"},{"start":177.66,"end":179.06,"text":"而且都非常的針對性"},{"start":179.06,"end":181.72,"text":"所以顯然就是說他們事前就已經掌握到"},{"start":181.72,"end":183.72,"text":"要入境的這些人他們的背景"},{"start":183.72,"end":185.36,"text":"他們過去服務的一些單位"},{"start":185.36,"end":186.86,"text":"甚至他們工作的對象"},{"start":186.86,"end":189,"text":"所以才會問的非常的到位的問題"},{"start":189,"end":190.6,"text":"表示他們是有備而來"},{"start":190.6,"end":192.46,"text":"所以我們在這邊陸委會大概也還是"},{"start":192.46,"end":195.6,"text":"會針對特定的人事附入風險的部分"},{"start":195.6,"end":196.44,"text":"來提醒國人"},{"start":196.44,"end":198.84,"text":"包含像是從事國安單位的"},{"start":198.86,"end":200.86,"text":"或者是安全單位的一些公務人員"},{"start":200.86,"end":203.1,"text":"另外還有特定的這個宗教人士"},{"start":203.1,"end":205.76,"text":"現在非必要的話就請勿遣返"},{"start":205.76,"end":208.26,"text":"請勿遣往這個鹿港澳地區"},{"start":208.26,"end":210.26,"text":"那這個還是我們陸委會基本的這個政策"},{"start":210.26,"end":213.5,"text":"好其實我認為這個面對中國的"},{"start":213.5,"end":216.2,"text":"所謂的不論是法律戰心理戰"},{"start":216.2,"end":219.54,"text":"甚至於實質的就把手伸進台灣的滲透"},{"start":219.54,"end":221.64000000000001,"text":"我想其實在國防外交委員會的委員"},{"start":221.64000000000001,"end":223.74,"text":"因為還有其他的單位包括國安局"},{"start":223.74,"end":225.74,"text":"會來報告我們都非常的清楚"},{"start":225.74,"end":227.94,"text":"所以說面對這樣的消息"},{"start":228.04,"end":230.04,"text":"我覺得揭露是最重要的"},{"start":230.04,"end":232.04,"text":"所以本席還是鼓勵陸委會必須"},{"start":232.04,"end":234.04,"text":"定期的把這樣的資訊讓國人知道"},{"start":234.04,"end":234.54,"text":"是"},{"start":234.54,"end":236.54,"text":"好另外主席我要有請那個"},{"start":236.54,"end":238.54,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":238.54,"end":239.54,"text":"林部長"},{"start":239.54,"end":240.54,"text":"林部長"},{"start":240.54,"end":243.54,"text":"好那沈副主委還是稍後"},{"start":243.54,"end":245.54,"text":"因為我剛剛特別問到了"},{"start":245.54,"end":248.54,"text":"就是中國大外宣"},{"start":248.54,"end":250.04,"text":"其實不要講大外宣"},{"start":250.04,"end":252.04,"text":"他們在做他們的宣傳"},{"start":252.04,"end":256.04,"text":"一年就有2240億到3000億"},{"start":256.04,"end":257.54,"text":"之間的宣傳費"},{"start":257.64000000000004,"end":259.64000000000004,"text":"然後呢因為本席是媒體出來"},{"start":259.64000000000004,"end":261.64000000000004,"text":"所以本席特別去查了"},{"start":261.64000000000004,"end":264.64000000000004,"text":"中國一家官媒叫做中國日報"},{"start":264.64000000000004,"end":267.64000000000004,"text":"他在2016年到2020年"},{"start":267.64000000000004,"end":270.64000000000004,"text":"向美國媒體支付的廣告費"},{"start":270.64000000000004,"end":275.64000000000004,"text":"就高達新台幣6.08億元"},{"start":275.64000000000004,"end":277.64000000000004,"text":"一間官媒"},{"start":277.64000000000004,"end":280.64000000000004,"text":"都可以跟美國支付廣告費"},{"start":280.64000000000004,"end":282.64000000000004,"text":"他支付這個廣告費是為了什麼"},{"start":283.64000000000004,"end":284.64000000000004,"text":"部長你認為"},{"start":284.74,"end":287.74,"text":"為什麼官媒還要去買媒體"},{"start":287.74,"end":290.74,"text":"包括委員我們現在外館111個"},{"start":290.74,"end":292.74,"text":"我們很多外館都面對到"},{"start":292.74,"end":294.74,"text":"中共的大使不斷在刊登"},{"start":294.74,"end":295.74,"text":"在最大報"},{"start":295.74,"end":297.74,"text":"甚至有時候是半版更多的"},{"start":297.74,"end":300.74,"text":"他們的立場或聲明"},{"start":300.74,"end":303.74,"text":"我們當然也會反駁"},{"start":303.74,"end":305.74,"text":"不過相對來講聲量當然就沒有"},{"start":305.74,"end":306.74,"text":"強化那麼大"},{"start":306.74,"end":308.74,"text":"那在美國當然我們那個北美"},{"start":308.74,"end":309.74,"text":"市長"},{"start":309.74,"end":311.74,"text":"美國如果有那個"},{"start":311.74,"end":313.74,"text":"我們真的是沒有辦法去做"},{"start":313.84000000000003,"end":314.84000000000003,"text":"這些宣傳廣告"},{"start":314.84000000000003,"end":316.84000000000003,"text":"因為其實單單我們日常運作的運費"},{"start":316.84000000000003,"end":320.84000000000003,"text":"其實美國現在13變14個館"},{"start":320.84000000000003,"end":323.84000000000003,"text":"其實基本上都只能夠透過其他"},{"start":323.84000000000003,"end":327.84000000000003,"text":"免費的方式或是製造新聞"},{"start":327.84000000000003,"end":329.84000000000003,"text":"所以部長發臉書"},{"start":329.84000000000003,"end":331.84000000000003,"text":"然後陸委會副主委發臉書"},{"start":331.84000000000003,"end":333.84000000000003,"text":"然後台灣一個"},{"start":333.84000000000003,"end":335.84000000000003,"text":"今天聽說股市開盤"},{"start":335.84000000000003,"end":337.84000000000003,"text":"還漲了1000多點的"},{"start":337.84000000000003,"end":339.84000000000003,"text":"這樣一個經濟蓬勃的實績體"},{"start":339.84000000000003,"end":342.84000000000003,"text":"居然是要求部會首長去發臉書"},{"start":342.94,"end":343.94,"text":"那他們就去當網紅"},{"start":343.94,"end":345.94,"text":"我覺得你們去當網紅就好了"},{"start":345.94,"end":347.94,"text":"怎麼會有這樣的在野黨委員"},{"start":347.94,"end":348.94,"text":"這樣的提案我是不理解"},{"start":348.94,"end":350.94,"text":"但是回到嚴肅的話題"},{"start":350.94,"end":352.94,"text":"就以前一陣子"},{"start":352.94,"end":354.94,"text":"這個美日針對他們的"},{"start":354.94,"end":356.94,"text":"專屬經濟海域談判的背後"},{"start":356.94,"end":358.94,"text":"現在已經被揭露了"},{"start":358.94,"end":359.94,"text":"其實帶風向的背後"},{"start":359.94,"end":361.94,"text":"是有中國的認知戰"},{"start":361.94,"end":363.94,"text":"事實上部長你非常清楚"},{"start":363.94,"end":365.94,"text":"在美日的談判當中"},{"start":365.94,"end":366.94,"text":"根本沒有提到經濟海域"},{"start":366.94,"end":369.94,"text":"但是網路上所傳的這一個圖片"},{"start":369.94,"end":371.94,"text":"根本就是假消息"},{"start":372.04,"end":374.04,"text":"他用的是一個美國智庫"},{"start":374.04,"end":376.04,"text":"針對各國的經濟海域"},{"start":376.04,"end":378.04,"text":"所套上的一個圖"},{"start":378.04,"end":380.04,"text":"然後他特別的"},{"start":380.04,"end":382.04,"text":"只放上日本的"},{"start":382.04,"end":383.04,"text":"菲律賓的"},{"start":383.04,"end":385.04,"text":"但是故意"},{"start":385.04,"end":387.04,"text":"掠取台灣的經濟海域"},{"start":387.04,"end":390.04,"text":"然後就用這種假消息的方式"},{"start":390.04,"end":392.04,"text":"在做法律戰"},{"start":392.04,"end":393.04,"text":"認知戰"},{"start":393.04,"end":395.04,"text":"然後企圖其實是要"},{"start":395.04,"end":398.04,"text":"掩蓋當時中國騷擾我們東部海域"},{"start":398.04,"end":400.04,"text":"等於是一個裡應外合"},{"start":400.14000000000004,"end":402.14000000000004,"text":"但可悲的是"},{"start":402.14000000000004,"end":404.14000000000004,"text":"在我們國內有媒體"},{"start":404.14000000000004,"end":406.14000000000004,"text":"包括還有在野黨的政治人物"},{"start":406.14000000000004,"end":408.14000000000004,"text":"就配合著操作"},{"start":408.14000000000004,"end":410.14000000000004,"text":"這明明就是一個假圖假訊息"},{"start":410.14000000000004,"end":412.14000000000004,"text":"我想不止陸委會"},{"start":412.14000000000004,"end":414.14000000000004,"text":"包括外交部"},{"start":414.14000000000004,"end":416.14000000000004,"text":"當時也不斷的做澄清"},{"start":416.14000000000004,"end":417.14000000000004,"text":"對不對"},{"start":417.14000000000004,"end":419.14000000000004,"text":"部長當時外交部也澄清說"},{"start":419.14000000000004,"end":421.14000000000004,"text":"在那一次的談判當中"},{"start":421.14000000000004,"end":423.14000000000004,"text":"其實是不涉及所謂經濟海域的"},{"start":423.14000000000004,"end":425.14000000000004,"text":"那像面對這樣的狀況"},{"start":425.14000000000004,"end":427.14000000000004,"text":"尤其是中國"},{"start":427.14000000000004,"end":429.14000000000004,"text":"投入將近三千億"},{"start":429.24,"end":431.24,"text":"的媒體宣傳"},{"start":431.24,"end":433.24,"text":"甚至於一家中國日報"},{"start":433.24,"end":435.24,"text":"都可以數年來花六億"},{"start":435.24,"end":437.24,"text":"在買美國的媒體"},{"start":437.24,"end":439.24,"text":"那麼面對這種錯假訊息的時候"},{"start":439.24,"end":441.24,"text":"該怎麼應對"},{"start":441.24,"end":443.24,"text":"如果沒有宣傳費"},{"start":443.24,"end":445.24,"text":"宣傳費砍到零"},{"start":445.24,"end":447.24,"text":"陸委會沒有宣傳費"},{"start":447.24,"end":449.24,"text":"外交部沒有宣傳費"},{"start":449.24,"end":451.24,"text":"然後再加上裡應外合"},{"start":451.24,"end":453.24,"text":"那麼面對這種錯誤的訊息"},{"start":453.24,"end":455.24,"text":"我必須講哦"},{"start":455.24,"end":457.24,"text":"這個對於漁民來講"},{"start":457.34000000000003,"end":459.34000000000003,"text":"是會造成恐慌的"},{"start":459.34000000000003,"end":461.34000000000003,"text":"因為他們擔心他們接下來的"},{"start":461.34000000000003,"end":463.34000000000003,"text":"所謂作業的海域"},{"start":463.34000000000003,"end":465.34000000000003,"text":"是會被遭到限制"},{"start":465.34000000000003,"end":467.34000000000003,"text":"甚至於無法合法捕魚"},{"start":467.34000000000003,"end":469.34000000000003,"text":"但是對於台灣跟菲律賓之間"},{"start":469.34000000000003,"end":471.34000000000003,"text":"我們其實是有"},{"start":471.34000000000003,"end":473.34000000000003,"text":"台菲漁業執法的合作協定"},{"start":475.34000000000003,"end":477.34000000000003,"text":"台日也有漁業的作業協定"},{"start":477.34000000000003,"end":479.34000000000003,"text":"可是這些訊息"},{"start":479.34000000000003,"end":481.34000000000003,"text":"就會出不去啊"},{"start":481.34000000000003,"end":483.34000000000003,"text":"新聞稿有用嗎"},{"start":483.34000000000003,"end":485.34000000000003,"text":"而且國際上是不是"},{"start":485.44,"end":487.44,"text":"會對這樣的訊息錯誤帶了風向"},{"start":487.44,"end":489.44,"text":"因為中國正在加碼宣傳"},{"start":489.44,"end":491.44,"text":"所以我要問的是"},{"start":491.44,"end":493.44,"text":"面對這樣的狀況"},{"start":493.44,"end":495.44,"text":"外交部跟陸委會"},{"start":495.44,"end":497.44,"text":"那麼你們該怎麼來做"},{"start":497.44,"end":499.44,"text":"因為我必須要講哦"},{"start":499.44,"end":501.44,"text":"今天的報告特別提到的是"},{"start":501.44,"en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外審本席會特別提這一題"},{"start":632.94,"end":634.94,"text":"因為這一題在6月初的時候"},{"start":634.94,"end":636.94,"text":"其實是"},{"start":636.94,"end":638.94,"text":"在5月28號"},{"start":638.94,"end":640.94,"text":"日飛談判之後6月初"},{"start":640.94,"end":642.94,"text":"其實被繳了一尺"},{"start":642.94,"end":644.94,"text":"非常大的新聞操作"},{"start":644.94,"end":646.94,"text":"但是事實上現在再來回顧"},{"start":646.94,"end":648.94,"text":"很多人忘記了"},{"start":648.94,"end":650.94,"text":"但是他的既知影響已經認為是不是"},{"start":650.94,"end":652.94,"text":"日飛已經親門踏戶"},{"start":652.94,"end":654.94,"text":"最後給一點時間給陸委會"},{"start":654.94,"end":657.0400000000001,"text":"現在請陸委會回應"},{"start":685.0400000000001,"end":687.0400000000001,"text":"有利於他們的這種所謂的新聞跟訊息"},{"start":687.0400000000001,"end":689.0400000000001,"text":"未來就會變成是他們的資料庫"},{"start":689.0400000000001,"end":691.0400000000001,"text":"放在AI上面"},{"start":691.0400000000001,"end":693.0400000000001,"text":"讓提供給國際的社會來去做運用"},{"start":693.0400000000001,"end":695.0400000000001,"text":"所以如果在這個部分我們安靜了"},{"start":695.0400000000001,"end":697.0400000000001,"text":"或者這個部分我們沒有辦法適時的回應的話"},{"start":697.0400000000001,"end":699.0400000000001,"text":"在整個網路的世界上"},{"start":699.0400000000001,"end":701.0400000000001,"text":"在整個AI的這個輿情上面來講"},{"start":701.0400000000001,"end":703.0400000000001,"text":"就會對台灣非常的不利"},{"start":703.0400000000001,"end":705.0400000000001,"text":"那陸委會這邊建議幾個基本的做法"},{"start":705.0400000000001,"end":707.0400000000001,"text":"就是說我們對內的部分來講"},{"start":707.0400000000001,"end":709.0400000000001,"text":"還是要加大對於國人的一個試讀"},{"start":709.0400000000001,"end":711.0400000000001,"text":"就是有一些訊息的來源或者訊息的真偽"},{"start":711.0400000000001,"end":713.0400000000001,"text":"應該要持續的告訴國人說"},{"start":713.14,"end":715.14,"text":"要盡可能去多一些這個這個了解"},{"start":715.14,"end":717.14,"text":"再來第二個在國際上來說的話"},{"start":717.14,"end":719.14,"text":"我們有兩個做法"},{"start":719.14,"end":721.14,"text":"第一個是我們要尋找更多可以合作的夥伴"},{"start":721.14,"end":723.14,"text":"不一定是媒體本身"},{"start":723.14,"end":725.14,"text":"也包含像是國會議員有很多的友台小組"},{"start":725.14,"end":727.14,"text":"他們都可以在適當的時候替我們來講話"},{"start":727.14,"end":729.14,"text":"所以我們需要多多的跟他們來做溝通跟聯繫"},{"start":729.14,"end":731.14,"text":"那再來第三個的話"},{"start":731.14,"end":733.14,"text":"就是我們要掌握我們自己特有的這個資源"},{"start":733.14,"end":735.14,"text":"全世界現在都想了解兩岸"},{"start":735.14,"end":737.14,"text":"都想了解中國"},{"start":737.14,"end":739.14,"text":"最了解中國的是台灣"},{"start":739.14,"end":741.14,"text":"所以當我們有掌握到這個獨門資源的時候"},{"start":741.24,"end":743.24,"text":"我們大家想要透過了解中國"},{"start":743.24,"end":745.24,"text":"然後來跟台灣接觸"},{"start":745.24,"end":747.24,"text":"這個時候我們就有講話的機會"},{"start":747.24,"end":749.24,"text":"所以我們也非常希望這個大院可以支持我們"},{"start":749.24,"end":751.24,"text":"多多的在這個宣傳也好"},{"start":751.24,"end":753.24,"text":"或者說這個國際交流"},{"start":753.24,"end":755.24,"text":"或者說對於中國的國情的研發研究也好"},{"start":755.24,"end":757.24,"text":"的這個經費可以手下留情"},{"start":757.24,"end":759.24,"text":"好 本席特別要強調"},{"start":759.24,"end":761.24,"text":"台灣不是中國的一部分"},{"start":761.24,"end":763.24,"text":"這個部分其實他花三千億"},{"start":763.24,"end":765.24,"text":"在做宣傳"},{"start":765.24,"end":767.24,"text":"甚至於一家中國的媒體可以花六億"},{"start":767.24,"end":769.24,"text":"去買美國的媒體"},{"start":769.34,"end":771.34,"text":"他其實就是要用"},{"start":771.34,"end":773.34,"text":"所謂宣傳的方式掩蓋台灣"},{"start":773.34,"end":775.34,"text":"讓台灣沒辦法發聲"},{"start":775.34,"end":777.34,"text":"所以兩個部會就只能再辛苦一點了"},{"start":777.34,"end":779.34,"text":"加油 好 謝謝"},{"start":779.34,"end":781.34,"text":"拜託 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}