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紐的天然氣出口上的合約"},{"start":245.4,"end":249.4,"text":"兩邊的這個貿易將會繼續進行"},{"start":249.4,"end":251.4,"text":"然後談他提到說呢"},{"start":251.4,"end":254.4,"text":"這個辦事處並不會影響業務跟合約"},{"start":254.4,"end":256.4,"text":"這個辦事處什麼都沒有做"},{"start":256.4,"end":259.4,"text":"這個是自由時報的報導去引述的"},{"start":259.4,"end":261.4,"text":"那我想在這個時間"},{"start":261.4,"end":263.4,"text":"部長可能有一些要跟我們國人澄清"},{"start":263.4,"end":266.4,"text":"說明的我覺得可以趁這個機會"},{"start":266.4,"end":268.4,"text":"把整個事情就是說對方"},{"start":268.4,"end":270.4,"text":"做了這樣的一個說法"},{"start":270.4,"end":272.4,"text":"然後經過澳洲媒體的報導"},{"start":272.4,"end":275.4,"text":"再由自由時報報導出來"},{"start":275.4,"end":277.4,"text":"好那我想民眾會有些疑慮"},{"start":277.4,"end":280.4,"text":"那我也無法確定他是真的"},{"start":280.4,"end":282.4,"text":"所以今天算是部長您這邊"},{"start":282.4,"end":283.4,"text":"有一些什麼樣的想法"},{"start":283.4,"end":285.4,"text":"那你所掌握到的情況"},{"start":285.4,"end":287.4,"text":"能夠跟國人說的部分"},{"start":287.4,"end":289.4,"text":"那請簡總說一下"},{"start":289.4,"end":291.4,"text":"這不是就呈現他理不直氣不壯"},{"start":291.4,"end":293.4,"text":"怎麼會沒有經貿的關係"},{"start":293.4,"end":295.4,"text":"那採購不是經貿的關係嗎"},{"start":295.4,"end":298.4,"text":"那我們就因此我們回應嘛"},{"start":298.4,"end":300.4,"text":"所以說是有我們確實有經貿往來"},{"start":300.4,"end":303.4,"text":"至於他去講人家澳洲怎麼樣"},{"start":303.4,"end":305.4,"text":"這個是有一點月除太保"},{"start":305.4,"end":306.4,"text":"因為很奇怪嘛"},{"start":306.4,"end":308.4,"text":"表示他自己理虧嘛"},{"start":308.4,"end":311.4,"text":"那我們不願意去為其他國家代言"},{"start":311.4,"end":313.4,"text":"那意思是說所有的友盟都知道"},{"start":313.4,"end":315.4,"text":"台灣在那邊是有利無害的啊"},{"start":315.4,"end":317.4,"text":"是中共在那邊"},{"start":317.4,"end":321.4,"text":"想要去透過這個八牛嘛"},{"start":321.4,"end":324.4,"text":"去搞這些太平洋國家的這些地區"},{"start":324.4,"end":326.4,"text":"照著大家機權不寧"},{"start":326.4,"end":328.4,"text":"所以這個外交部長本身"},{"start":328.4,"end":330.4,"text":"你看他越講越說越流口"},{"start":330.4,"end":333.4,"text":"對啊那他為什麼會提到就是說"},{"start":333.4,"end":337.4,"text":"這個決定不會影響台灣跟八牛的"},{"start":337.4,"end":338.4,"text":"天然氣合約"},{"start":338.4,"end":340.4,"text":"他有這樣的一個自信心是"},{"start":340.4,"end":342.4,"text":"其來何至啊"},{"start":342.4,"end":344.4,"text":"我也不知道吃了什麼雄心豹子膽"},{"start":344.4,"end":346.4,"text":"OK 了解"},{"start":346.4,"end":348.4,"text":"那所以說其實他講的這個是不正"},{"start":348.4,"end":350.4,"text":"如果這是他所說的話"},{"start":350.4,"end":353.4,"text":"其實我們認為是不正確的一個說法嘛"},{"start":353.4,"end":354.4,"text":"可以怎麼講"},{"start":354.4,"end":355.4,"text":"對啊不正確"},{"start":355.4,"end":356.4,"text":"所以我就反駁他啦"},{"start":356.4,"end":358.4,"text":"好 那除了這個八牛之外"},{"start":358.4,"end":360.4,"text":"也要問一下"},{"start":360.4,"end":361.4,"text":"就是呢"},{"start":361.4,"end":362.4,"text":"關注到過去"},{"start":362.4,"end":364.4,"text":"像是先前南非政府"},{"start":364.4,"end":366.4,"text":"這個迫遷台灣代表處"},{"start":366.4,"end":368.4,"text":"那他們這個"},{"start":368.4,"end":370.4,"text":"我們要捍衛權力"},{"start":370.4,"end":371.4,"text":"像這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":371.4,"end":373.4,"text":"那當時也有一些談判"},{"start":373.4,"end":374.4,"text":"那我想要問一下"},{"start":374.4,"end":376.4,"text":"我們的這個談判進展如何"},{"start":376.4,"end":378.4,"text":"過了八個多月我們協商到哪裡了"},{"start":378.4,"end":381.4,"text":"在南非的駐外機構的權益"},{"start":381.4,"end":383.4,"text":"提出了什麼樣的保障"},{"start":383.4,"end":385.4,"text":"有落實下來的"},{"start":385.4,"end":386.4,"text":"我們跟南非的關係"},{"start":386.4,"end":388.4,"text":"也已經快兩年多"},{"start":389.4,"end":393.4,"text":"他就是要我們簽館改名降級"},{"start":393.4,"end":396.4,"text":"我們其實因為跟他有簽過"},{"start":396.4,"end":399.4,"text":"這個雙邊關係的協議"},{"start":399.4,"end":401.4,"text":"所以大家要照法律來"},{"start":401.4,"end":404.4,"text":"他現在國會議員去跟他外交部要"},{"start":404.4,"end":406.4,"text":"他也拿不出來"},{"start":406.4,"end":408.4,"text":"是要拿出來大家知道"},{"start":408.4,"end":410.4,"text":"那關係是什麼嘛"},{"start":410.4,"end":412.4,"text":"所以我們當然處境很艱辛"},{"start":412.4,"end":414.4,"text":"我們的外館人員"},{"start":414.4,"end":416.4,"text":"但是我們就堅守崗位"},{"start":416.4,"end":418.4,"text":"所以這個事情"},{"start":418.4,"end":420.4,"text":"目前的境度就各界都很關切"},{"start":420.4,"end":423.4,"text":"那我們也還就在"},{"start":423.4,"end":424.4,"text":"那個財產也是我們的"},{"start":424.4,"end":426.4,"text":"我們的外館"},{"start":426.4,"end":428.4,"text":"我們也繼續在運作"},{"start":428.4,"end":430.4,"text":"這如果說是中國"},{"start":430.4,"end":434.4,"text":"在那邊每次跟南非有什麼往來"},{"start":434.4,"end":436.4,"text":"就要求他要表達什麼"},{"start":436.4,"end":438.4,"text":"或要做一些什麼事情"},{"start":438.4,"end":440.4,"text":"真的搞得全世界天下大亂"},{"start":440.4,"end":441.4,"text":"不只是八牛"},{"start":441.4,"end":443.4,"text":"然後還有南非"},{"start":443.4,"end":445.4,"text":"其實包含是立陶宛"},{"start":445.4,"end":447.4,"text":"那這邊我也要問一下"},{"start":447.4,"end":449.4,"text":"就是先前立陶宛政府也說"},{"start":449.4,"end":452.4,"text":"要檢討我們立陶宛辦事處的名稱問題"},{"start":452.4,"end":455.4,"text":"然後他上個禮拜有講到說"},{"start":455.4,"end":457.4,"text":"以台灣的名字設太表處的決定"},{"start":457.4,"end":459.4,"text":"或許過於大膽等等的"},{"start":459.4,"end":461.4,"text":"然後他們的國會議員也質疑"},{"start":461.4,"end":463.4,"text":"我們對立陶宛的投資承諾"},{"start":463.4,"end":464.4,"text":"他們的外交部"},{"start":464.4,"end":465.4,"text":"今年六月的時候也談到說"},{"start":465.4,"end":467.4,"text":"經過我國跟立陶宛雙方同意"},{"start":467.4,"end":470.4,"text":"暫緩立陶宛的對台經濟合作計畫"},{"start":470.4,"end":472.4,"text":"那這個六月被針對的時候"},{"start":472.4,"end":474.4,"text":"那我們就講到說"},{"start":474.4,"end":476.4,"text":"因為立陶宛政府在改組"},{"start":476.4,"end":478.4,"text":"而七月十四號也已經成立了"},{"start":478.4,"end":479.4,"text":"新政府改組完畢了"},{"start":479.4,"end":481.4,"text":"請問在這個經濟合作計畫上面"},{"start":481.4,"end":483.4,"text":"我們有沒有新的消息跟進展"},{"start":483.4,"end":484.4,"text":"可以跟國人說明一下"},{"start":484.4,"end":485.4,"text":"有"},{"start":485.4,"end":489.4,"text":"那我們因為台立之間有經濟合作"},{"start":489.4,"end":492.4,"text":"這個項目的這個"},{"start":492.4,"end":494.4,"text":"諮商"},{"start":494.4,"end":496.4,"text":"那也在進行中"},{"start":496.4,"end":498.4,"text":"那至於說"},{"start":498.4,"end":500.4,"text":"您剛提到新的總理也有對外講"},{"start":500.4,"end":503.4,"text":"因為這也不會有什麼改名的問題"},{"start":503.4,"end":505.4,"text":"那他跟中國的往來"},{"start":505.4,"end":510.4,"text":"他希望尋求歐盟的這個標準"},{"start":510.4,"end":512.4,"text":"我們也予以尊重"},{"start":512.4,"end":514.4,"text":"可是台立之間的關係"},{"start":514.4,"end":516.4,"text":"跟中國不一定要有關係"},{"start":516.4,"end":519.4,"text":"所以我們雙邊怎麼樣加強關係"},{"start":519.4,"end":521.4,"text":"是他們最重視的"},{"start":521.4,"end":523.4,"text":"所以說他們跟中國之間的關係"},{"start":523.4,"end":524.4,"text":"說實在"},{"start":524.4,"end":526.4,"text":"中國到底會怎麼樣"},{"start":526.4,"end":527.4,"text":"我們也沒辦法替他決定"},{"start":527.4,"end":529.4,"text":"那因為時間有限"},{"start":529.4,"end":531.4,"text":"最後就是表達一下就是說"},{"start":531.4,"end":532.4,"text":"就是說"},{"start":532.4,"end":535.4,"text":"過去中國大陸對我們中華民國的外交"},{"start":535.4,"end":536.4,"text":"他可能用"},{"start":536.4,"end":539.4,"text":"比如說一些邦交國的斷交"},{"start":539.4,"end":541.4,"text":"這樣的方式來處理"},{"start":541.4,"end":544.4,"text":"那當然因為我們現在的邦交國數量也不多"},{"start":544.4,"end":546.4,"text":"那我們就是堅守自己的邦交國"},{"start":546.4,"end":548.4,"text":"這部分外交部也很辛苦"},{"start":548.4,"end":550.4,"text":"那我們也予以鼓勵"},{"start":550.4,"end":551.4,"text":"那加油"},{"start":551.4,"end":553.4,"text":"但是現在看起來"},{"start":553.4,"end":557.4,"text":"針對於很多的代表處的一些刁難"},{"start":557.4,"end":559.4,"text":"或者是說一些阻礙"},{"start":559.4,"end":563.4,"text":"好像變成是一個新的一個方向"},{"start":563.4,"end":566.4,"text":"那這一點我相信外交部也非常的清楚"},{"start":566.4,"end":569.4,"text":"那也希望能夠繼續為中華民國的外交努力"},{"start":569.4,"end":570.4,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":570.4,"end":571.4,"text":"對 謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:28.280000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:30.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:31.920000+08:00","text":"有請林佳龍部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:32.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:33.700000+08:00","text":"請林部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:36.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:37.086957+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:37.086957+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:38.417391+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:38.417391+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:57.208000+08:00","text":"我們都很關心巴紐關閉我國駐處的問題，第一個問題，報導寫巴紐這次是無預警的關閉，我想請問外交部是在什麼時候掌握到這個訊息的？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:58.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:17.114286+08:00","text":"我們就是看到他的外交部長貼臉書，事實上我們這個事情交涉很久，也知道他們有兩年的檢討期，但是部長利用他的次長跟亞太司長不在的時候，自己去貼了臉書……","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:17.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:23.114286+08:00","text":"貼了臉書，那他們政府體系……這個外交部部長貼臉書之後……","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:23.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:25.246154+08:00","text":"因為他們內部有不一樣的意見啊！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:25.246154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:26.246154+08:00","text":"好，這個我等一下會問你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:25.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:35+08:00","text":"因為既然有兩年的檢討，內閣會議通過了，但他這樣的突擊，其實他們內部有一些人很驚訝，很多友盟大家也覺得怎麼又來了？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:35.553846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:51.185714+08:00","text":"你剛剛講到這次是因為他們的外交部長卡琴科主導，巴紐裡面有不同的聲音跟意見，可不可以具體說明，巴紐政府裡面有哪一些官員是反對外交部長所做的這個決定？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:52.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:54.025000+08:00","text":"沒什麼人贊成啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:55.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:59.177778+08:00","text":"但因為他是外交部長，我想他用了一些手段……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:59.177778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:00.177778+08:00","text":"什麼樣的手段？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:48:00.177778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:01.177778+08:00","text":"可不可以講詳細一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:59.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:04.114286+08:00","text":"也因為這個樣子，我們需要去交涉，也需要一點時間。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:48:04.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:05.275000+08:00","text":"一些什麼樣的手段？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:48:05.275000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:06.275000+08:00","text":"就突擊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:48:05.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:10.650000+08:00","text":"你的意思是，整個巴紐裡面就只有外交部長一個人贊成要關閉？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:48:11.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:17+08:00","text":"其他國會、總理等等都不知道，然後也反對，是嗎？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:48:17+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:25.870588+08:00","text":"他當然有經過National Executive Council……即內閣行政的決定啦！","quality":0.179},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:48:25.870588+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:52.218182+08:00","text":"事實上，他們內閣先前有經過討論，是兩年的檢討期，所以我們為什麼說他這個行動，以及背後代表……因為其實外國的媒體都有報導，所以我們認為其實臺巴關係不能夠因為這樣的一個貼文就決定了，我們當然會繼續交涉。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:48:52.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:07.218182+08:00","text":"好，所以下一步我要詢問的就是部長有談到的，18號的時候你說要檢討我們跟巴紐天然氣的合約，經濟部昨天也說在審視，這幾天下來，我們最新的進度是什麼？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:07.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:12.212500+08:00","text":"我們對於巴紐的天然氣，接下來要採取什麼樣的一個作為？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:12.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:32.218182+08:00","text":"因為巴紐的天然氣採購，對臺灣來說，可能占的比例不到很高，但占巴紐輸出是相當高的比例，將近三分之一，他們國家也都了解，所以要關閉臺灣的代表處，其實是會傷害巴紐的利益。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:32.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:44.185714+08:00","text":"對啊，所以接下來，經過這幾天的評估，因為你從18號就有談到天然氣合約要重新檢討，到目前來說，我們暫定的腳步跟策略方向是什麼？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:44.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:56.114286+08:00","text":"因為有些底牌我不方便在這裡講，但基本上有長約跟短約，還有到現貨市場上採購，所以我們是有工具可以運用，但怎麼用會有效……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:56.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:50:00.177778+08:00","text":"好的，不能說的部分我們都尊重，就是想要了解一下。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:50:00.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:50:26.169231+08:00","text":"但是自由時報在17號的時候引述了一個澳洲媒體「澳洲人報」的內容，講到巴紐的外交部長透露在關閉巴紐代表處的數週前已經告知了澳洲的外交部長，此舉是要讓中國大陸了解北京對巴紐而言是重要的夥伴。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:50:26.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:50:47.185714+08:00","text":"然後他還講這個決定並不會影響臺灣跟巴紐天然氣出口商的合約，兩邊的貿易將會繼續進行，並且他提到這個辦事處並不會影響業務跟合約，這個辦事處什麼都沒有做，這個是自由時報的報導引述的。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:50:47.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:50:55.800000+08:00","text":"我想這時部長可能有一些要跟我們國人澄清的，我覺得可以趁這個機會把整個事情說明一下。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:50:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:17.114286+08:00","text":"對於他們這樣的說法，經過澳洲媒體的報導，再由自由時報報導出來，我想民眾會有些疑慮，但我也無法確定它是不是真的，所以今天部長有什麼樣的想法，依你所掌握到的情況，就能夠跟國人說的部分，請簡短的說明一下。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:17.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:19.246154+08:00","text":"這不是就呈現他理不直氣不壯啊！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:19.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:21.200000+08:00","text":"怎麼會沒有經貿關係？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:21.581818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:23.218182+08:00","text":"採購不是經貿關係嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:24.490909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:36.150000+08:00","text":"因此我們回應，我們確實有經貿往來，至於他去講人家澳洲怎麼樣，這個是有一點越俎代庖，很奇怪，表示他自己理虧嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:36.614286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:54.150000+08:00","text":"當然我們不願意去為其他國家代言，但意思是所有的友盟都知道臺灣在那邊是有利無害的，是中共在那邊想要透過巴紐去搞這些太平洋地區國家，弄得大家雞犬不寧！","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:54.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:57.400000+08:00","text":"所以這個外交部長本身，你看他越講越漏氣啊！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:58.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:10+08:00","text":"對啊，他為什麼會提到這個決定不會影響臺灣跟巴紐的天然氣合約，他有這樣的自信心是其來何自啊？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:10+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:11+08:00","text":"還是你也覺得……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:10.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:12.257143+08:00","text":"我也不知道他吃了什麼熊心豹子膽啦！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:12.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:13.900000+08:00","text":"OK，好，了解。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:14.542857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:22.200000+08:00","text":"所以如果這是他所說的話，其實我們認為是不正確的一個說法，可以這麼講？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:22.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:24.400000+08:00","text":"對啊，不正確，所以我就反駁他啦！好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:24.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:44.218182+08:00","text":"除了巴紐之外，也要問一下，我關注到過去像是先前南非政府迫遷臺灣代表處，我們也表達要捍衛權利這樣的訊息，當時也有一些談判，我想要問一下，我們的談判進展如何？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:44.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:46.257143+08:00","text":"過了八個多月，我們協商到哪裡了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:46.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:51.177778+08:00","text":"在南非駐外機構的權益提出了什麼樣的保障？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:51.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:53.066667+08:00","text":"針對有落實下來的部分。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:53.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:53:09.177778+08:00","text":"我們跟南非的關係也已經快兩年多，他就是要我們遷館、改名、降級，其實我們有跟他簽過雙邊關係的協議，所以大家要照法律來。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:53:09.614286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:53:18.114286+08:00","text":"現在他的國會議員去跟外交部要，他也拿不出來，事實上拿出來大家都知道關係是什麼嘛！","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:53:18.763636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:53:24.177778+08:00","text":"當然我們處境很艱辛，但是我們的外館人員就堅守崗位。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:53:24.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:53:26.066667+08:00","text":"所以這個事情……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:53:26.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:53:26.733333+08:00","text":"目前的進度？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:53:27.066667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:53:28.233333+08:00","text":"目前的進度就是各界都很關切啊！對啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:53:28.828571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:53:36.150000+08:00","text":"我們也還都在，外館也是我們的財產嘛，我們也繼續在運作啊！","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:53:36.150000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:53:37.150000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，還有另外一個地方……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:53:36.685714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:53:48.218182+08:00","text":"如果說是中國在那邊，每次跟南非有什麼往來就要求他要表達什麼，或要做一些什麼事情，真的搞得全世界天下大亂啦！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:53:48.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:54:11.218182+08:00","text":"其實不只是巴紐、南非，包含立陶宛，我也要問一下，先前立陶宛政府也說要檢討我們立陶宛辦事處的名稱問題，然後他上個禮拜有講到以臺灣的名字設代表處的決定或許過於大膽等等，他們的國會議員也質疑我們對立陶宛的投資承諾。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:54:11.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:54:18.185714+08:00","text":"並且他們的外交部今年6月的時候也談到，經過我國跟立陶宛雙方同意暫緩立陶宛對臺經濟合作計畫。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:54:19.127273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:54:32.288889+08:00","text":"在6月被針對的時候，我們就講到因為立陶宛政府在改組，而7月14號也已經成立了新政府，改組完畢了，請問在這個經濟合作計畫上面，我們有沒有新的消息跟進展，可以跟國人說明一下？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:54:32.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:55:00.114286+08:00","text":"有，因為臺立之間有經濟合作項目的諮商，也在進行中，至於您剛剛提到新的總理也有對外講，因為這也不會有什麼改名的問題，他跟中國的往來，他希望尋求歐盟的標準，我們也予以尊重。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:55:00.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:55:04.200000+08:00","text":"可是臺立之間的關係，跟中國不一定要有關係呀！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:55:04.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:55:15.300000+08:00","text":"所以我們雙邊怎麼樣加強關係是他們最重視的，至於他們跟中國之間的關係，說實在中國到底會怎麼樣，我們也沒辦法替他決定。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:55:15.685714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:55:39.066667+08:00","text":"因為時間有限，最後表達一下，過去中國大陸對我們中華民國的外交，他可能用比如一些邦交國的斷交方式來處理，當然因為我們現在的邦交國數量也不多，我們就是堅守自己的邦交國，這部分外交部也很辛苦，我們也予以鼓勵，加油！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-22T10:55:39.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:55:58.066667+08:00","text":"但是現在看起來，針對於很多代表處的一些刁難或者是一些阻礙，好像變成是一個新的方向，這一點我相信外交部也非常的清楚，也希望能夠繼續為中華民國的外交努力，好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T10:55:58.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:55:59.200000+08:00","text":"對，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:55:59.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:56:01.985714+08:00","text":"我們現在休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:56:02.285714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:56:03.428571+08:00","text":"休息（10時56分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:56:03.728571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:56:05.442857+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時2分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:56:05.742857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:56:08.885714+08:00","text":"各位請回座，我們繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:56:09.185714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:56:12.900000+08:00","text":"接下來請牛煦庭委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時46分）謝謝召委。有請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們都很關心巴紐關閉我國駐處的問題，第一個問題，報導寫巴紐這次是無預警的關閉，我想請問外交部是在什麼時候掌握到這個訊息的？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是看到他的外交部長貼臉書，事實上我們這個事情交涉很久，也知道他們有兩年的檢討期，但是部長利用他的次長跟亞太司長不在的時候，自己去貼了臉書……"],["徐委員巧芯：貼了臉書，那他們政府體系……這個外交部部長貼臉書之後……"],["林部長佳龍：因為他們內部有不一樣的意見啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，這個我等一下會問你……"],["林部長佳龍：因為既然有兩年的檢討，內閣會議通過了，但他這樣的突擊，其實他們內部有一些人很驚訝，很多友盟大家也覺得怎麼又來了？"],["徐委員巧芯：你剛剛講到這次是因為他們的外交部長卡琴科主導，巴紐裡面有不同的聲音跟意見，可不可以具體說明，巴紐政府裡面有哪一些官員是反對外交部長所做的這個決定？"],["林部長佳龍：沒什麼人贊成啊！但因為他是外交部長，我想他用了一些手段……"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼樣的手段？可不可以講詳細一點。"],["林部長佳龍：也因為這個樣子，我們需要去交涉，也需要一點時間。"],["徐委員巧芯：一些什麼樣的手段？"],["林部長佳龍：就突擊啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：你的意思是，整個巴紐裡面就只有外交部長一個人贊成要關閉？其他國會、總理等等都不知道，然後也反對，是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他當然有經過National Executive Council……即內閣行政的決定啦！事實上，他們內閣先前有經過討論，是兩年的檢討期，所以我們為什麼說他這個行動，以及背後代表……因為其實外國的媒體都有報導，所以我們認為其實臺巴關係不能夠因為這樣的一個貼文就決定了，我們當然會繼續交涉。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以下一步我要詢問的就是部長有談到的，18號的時候你說要檢討我們跟巴紐天然氣的合約，經濟部昨天也說在審視，這幾天下來，我們最新的進度是什麼？我們對於巴紐的天然氣，接下來要採取什麼樣的一個作為？"],["林部長佳龍：因為巴紐的天然氣採購，對臺灣來說，可能占的比例不到很高，但占巴紐輸出是相當高的比例，將近三分之一，他們國家也都了解，所以要關閉臺灣的代表處，其實是會傷害巴紐的利益。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，所以接下來，經過這幾天的評估，因為你從18號就有談到天然氣合約要重新檢討，到目前來說，我們暫定的腳步跟策略方向是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：因為有些底牌我不方便在這裡講，但基本上有長約跟短約，還有到現貨市場上採購，所以我們是有工具可以運用，但怎麼用會有效……"],["徐委員巧芯：好的，不能說的部分我們都尊重，就是想要了解一下。但是自由時報在17號的時候引述了一個澳洲媒體「澳洲人報」的內容，講到巴紐的外交部長透露在關閉巴紐代表處的數週前已經告知了澳洲的外交部長，此舉是要讓中國大陸了解北京對巴紐而言是重要的夥伴。然後他還講這個決定並不會影響臺灣跟巴紐天然氣出口商的合約，兩邊的貿易將會繼續進行，並且他提到這個辦事處並不會影響業務跟合約，這個辦事處什麼都沒有做，這個是自由時報的報導引述的。我想這時部長可能有一些要跟我們國人澄清的，我覺得可以趁這個機會把整個事情說明一下。對於他們這樣的說法，經過澳洲媒體的報導，再由自由時報報導出來，我想民眾會有些疑慮，但我也無法確定它是不是真的，所以今天部長有什麼樣的想法，依你所掌握到的情況，就能夠跟國人說的部分，請簡短的說明一下。"],["林部長佳龍：這不是就呈現他理不直氣不壯啊！怎麼會沒有經貿關係？採購不是經貿關係嗎？因此我們回應，我們確實有經貿往來，至於他去講人家澳洲怎麼樣，這個是有一點越俎代庖，很奇怪，表示他自己理虧嘛！當然我們不願意去為其他國家代言，但意思是所有的友盟都知道臺灣在那邊是有利無害的，是中共在那邊想要透過巴紐去搞這些太平洋地區國家，弄得大家雞犬不寧！所以這個外交部長本身，你看他越講越漏氣啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，他為什麼會提到這個決定不會影響臺灣跟巴紐的天然氣合約，他有這樣的自信心是其來何自啊？還是你也覺得……"],["林部長佳龍：我也不知道他吃了什麼熊心豹子膽啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好，了解。所以如果這是他所說的話，其實我們認為是不正確的一個說法，可以這麼講？"],["林部長佳龍：對啊，不正確，所以我就反駁他啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：好。除了巴紐之外，也要問一下，我關注到過去像是先前南非政府迫遷臺灣代表處，我們也表達要捍衛權利這樣的訊息，當時也有一些談判，我想要問一下，我們的談判進展如何？過了八個多月，我們協商到哪裡了？在南非駐外機構的權益提出了什麼樣的保障？針對有落實下來的部分。"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟南非的關係也已經快兩年多，他就是要我們遷館、改名、降級，其實我們有跟他簽過雙邊關係的協議，所以大家要照法律來。現在他的國會議員去跟外交部要，他也拿不出來，事實上拿出來大家都知道關係是什麼嘛！當然我們處境很艱辛，但是我們的外館人員就堅守崗位。所以這個事情……"],["徐委員巧芯：目前的進度？"],["林部長佳龍：目前的進度就是各界都很關切啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我們也還都在，外館也是我們的財產嘛，我們也繼續在運作啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：因為時間的關係，還有另外一個地方……"],["林部長佳龍：如果說是中國在那邊，每次跟南非有什麼往來就要求他要表達什麼，或要做一些什麼事情，真的搞得全世界天下大亂啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：其實不只是巴紐、南非，包含立陶宛，我也要問一下，先前立陶宛政府也說要檢討我們立陶宛辦事處的名稱問題，然後他上個禮拜有講到以臺灣的名字設代表處的決定或許過於大膽等等，他們的國會議員也質疑我們對立陶宛的投資承諾。並且他們的外交部今年6月的時候也談到，經過我國跟立陶宛雙方同意暫緩立陶宛對臺經濟合作計畫。在6月被針對的時候，我們就講到因為立陶宛政府在改組，而7月14號也已經成立了新政府，改組完畢了，請問在這個經濟合作計畫上面，我們有沒有新的消息跟進展，可以跟國人說明一下？"],["林部長佳龍：有，因為臺立之間有經濟合作項目的諮商，也在進行中，至於您剛剛提到新的總理也有對外講，因為這也不會有什麼改名的問題，他跟中國的往來，他希望尋求歐盟的標準，我們也予以尊重。可是臺立之間的關係，跟中國不一定要有關係呀！","所以我們雙邊怎麼樣加強關係是他們最重視的，至於他們跟中國之間的關係，說實在中國到底會怎麼樣，我們也沒辦法替他決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為時間有限，最後表達一下，過去中國大陸對我們中華民國的外交，他可能用比如一些邦交國的斷交方式來處理，當然因為我們現在的邦交國數量也不多，我們就是堅守自己的邦交國，這部分外交部也很辛苦，我們也予以鼓勵，加油！但是現在看起來，針對於很多代表處的一些刁難或者是一些阻礙，好像變成是一個新的方向，這一點我相信外交部也非常的清楚，也希望能夠繼續為中華民國的外交努力，好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：對，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時2分）"],["主席：各位請回座，我們繼續開會。","接下來請牛煦庭委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-28","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","王義川","林楚茵","黃建賓","王安祥","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","許忠信","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","黃仁","沈伯洋"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2026-07-22"],"gazette_id":"1156601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「我國近年針對南海主權與法律地位之國際宣傳實績成效暨如何應對\n周邊國家擴大主權國際宣傳之具體反制策略」，併請海洋委員會、大陸委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156601_00015"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}