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我生前已經處分了財產"},{"start":694,"end":696,"text":"就不是被繼承遺產了"},{"start":696,"end":698,"text":"這個 所以你們這個"},{"start":698,"end":700,"text":"你們要採這個制度 所以會衍生非常多的問題"},{"start":700,"end":702,"text":"要圓這個制度"},{"start":702,"end":704,"text":"就會衍生很多的問題"},{"start":704,"end":706,"text":"好好的研究一下"},{"start":706,"end":708,"text":"我們整體來做一些研究 謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":708,"end":710,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":710,"end":712,"text":"好 謝謝吳明睿 趙偉"},{"start":712,"end":714,"text":"接下來我們請顏寬恒委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:40:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:40:42.545455+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:40:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:40:43.750000+08:00","text":"請莊部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:40:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:40:47.666667+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:40:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:41:08.600000+08:00","text":"莊部長，剛剛聽你的報告，土地稅跟房屋稅是要授權地方政府對於婚育宅或是有未成年子女的房屋稅跟土地稅得為減免，還要經過地方自治條例由地方的議會來訂定嘛？對。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:41:10.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:41:15.818182+08:00","text":"這裡面的稅損是估計50到70億，請問這個是怎麼算出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:41:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:41:29.733333+08:00","text":"因為既然是「得」，地方議會要訂定自治條例，他也不一定會訂定，或是他訂定的額度，你有規定嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:41:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:41:30.833333+08:00","text":"是沒有，沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:41:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:41:40.823529+08:00","text":"我們第一個就是以單一自住，也就是目前他是屬於在全國自用住宅裡面只有單一一戶的，這樣的家庭裡面是新婚或是有……","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:41:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:41:43.882353+08:00","text":"我的問題是你的稅損是怎麼算出來的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:41:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:41:54.800000+08:00","text":"我們稅損是看單一自住裡面，114年有315萬戶、115年有318萬戶，我們以這樣的戶數之下去做一定比例的推估。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:41:55.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:42:06.666667+08:00","text":"但問題是地方政府要給他減免多少也是不確定，地方議會要不要訂自治條例給予減免也不確定，所以你怎麼有辦法去估算出來？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:42:07.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:42:14.777778+08:00","text":"第一個，我們當然是用最大的來估，假設降為全免的情況下來做估計的數字。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:42:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:42:37.750000+08:00","text":"好，我要跟你講，剛剛有很多委員提出說這是叫「中央請客、地方買單」，我要跟你講，你的回答如果只有針對土地稅跟房屋稅減免這一部分，聽起來好像你在對這些婚育的、對這些年輕人不怎麼友善，因為你還不願意補嘛！","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:42:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:43:26.500000+08:00","text":"但是你要知道少子女對策是套餐，有的要給錢、有的要給補助，有的公立幼兒園等等已經給了一大堆福利政策跟補貼了，這個只是錦上添花的一小部分，地方政府要不要減免、地方議會要不要通過自治條例都還在未定之天，所以好像在這裡跟你講50億、70億你也不肯負擔，好像中央政府很對不起這些人，我覺得你的回答針對問題是沒有錯，但是我們應該要再拉一個更高的層次來看，中央政府對於這些年輕人跟婚育有非常多的照顧，包括0到18歲一個月5,000塊不是嗎？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:43:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:43:34.750000+08:00","text":"然後幾歲以後還有一半要存專戶，存專戶是存5,000、領5,000，不是嗎？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:43:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:43:36.333333+08:00","text":"還是存2,500、領2,500？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:43:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:44:08.733333+08:00","text":"第一個，對於未成年子女，政府真的是如同委員所說的是整套的，這只是其中的一小項而已，包含育兒津貼，還有公托、幼托的時候，政府給予相關的補助，剛才還有提到這次新的成長津貼，成長津貼就是0到6歲的時候，每一個孩子每個月5,000塊是給家長，6歲以後到18歲就一半，2,500是給個人，然後2,500是存到專戶去，到他18歲滿的時候可以有第一桶金，這是政府整體的支出。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:44:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:44:09.222222+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:44:09.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:44:26.900000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說我們在看這個問題的時候要看政府整體，你在財政部考量政策的時候，別的委員講的也有點道理，中央政府給地方規定要對這些年輕人減稅，但是你強調「得」，所以他可以減、可以不減。是。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:44:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:44:34.777778+08:00","text":"但是問題是，如果居住在地方縣市，我舉個例子，臺北市有減，我新北市沒減，我心情就不好了。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:44:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:44:39.875000+08:00","text":"為什麼同樣是中華民國的國民，偏偏待遇差這麼多？","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:44:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:44:54.750000+08:00","text":"但是如果用「應」的話，你是擔心被落實中央請客、地方買單，所以你是少多少就應該要補多少，過去地方都是用這樣的邏輯嘛！","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:44:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:45:12.764706+08:00","text":"不過我跟你講，這裡你還要再考量一個小問題，我不知道你有沒有考量到，如果你這個減免沒有上限的話，假設減多少你補多少，地方為了要選票，我全部都免掉，我免得越多越好，變成每一個地方的補助會不一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:45:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:45:26.714286+08:00","text":"所以我覺得你這個政策的思考可能要再周延一點，如果地方政府真的訂這個條例，它能夠免的範圍最多到哪裡，是不是也要訂一個屋頂？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:45:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:45:36.600000+08:00","text":"這樣子你再來考量中央跟地方要不要一起適當地來負擔這個政策，我們來補助一部分，是不是合理？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:45:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:45:55.777778+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，第一個，在範圍上已經是以單一自住，也就是本人、配偶及未成年子女全國只有一間房子，這樣的範圍裡面對於婚育家庭得以自用住宅，而這一類的家庭目前房屋稅只有1%，比基本的1.2%還低。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:45:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:45:56.500000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:45:57.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:03.857143+08:00","text":"自用住宅的地價稅也是千分之二，已經是地價稅最低的，在這個範圍裡面去做酌減。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:11.833333+08:00","text":"我如果是新北市，如果免多少中央補多少的話，新北市政府那些議員就全部都免掉、都免收，全部都由中央補啊！","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:25.857143+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是你那個政策要考慮周延，我沒有要在這裡跟你講你應該要怎麼確定，因為畢竟這是財政部的職權，我是在這邊跟你互相切磋這個政策，所以要考量的很多。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:25.857143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:26.857143+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:40.800000+08:00","text":"中央政府其實給予很大的照顧，在這一方面沒有辦法……你已經照顧了99分，最後這1分有人跟你argue，好像變成是你對不起人一樣，不要產生這樣錯誤的概念跟印象。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:41.833333+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教，謝謝。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:46:43.857143+08:00","text":"我覺得千萬不要造成這樣的印象。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:46:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:04.750000+08:00","text":"第二個，中央政府的立場也不適宜讓每個地方政府的自治條例訂的不一樣，因為臺灣沒有多大的面積，所有國人都是希望別的地方政府享有的權益，我也要有；別的地方有的權益，我也要有。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:23.833333+08:00","text":"我舉個例子：以前新北市鄰長車馬補助費一個月1,500，但是臺北市2,500、桃園市2,500，被批評了很多年之後，現在侯市長從善如流，宣布7月1號開始也調為2,500，前面那幾年新北市的鄰長就說我們就矮人一截，也不能這樣說。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:31.777778+08:00","text":"所以如果地方的標準不一樣的話，大家感受也不好，這個也是得考慮看看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:41.777778+08:00","text":"最後，談到今天大法官會議解釋違憲這部分，就我念法律的角度來看，它真正的根源在哪裡呢？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:48.666667+08:00","text":"其實稅法有一個最基本、最高的原則，就是拿到錢的人繳稅，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:47:58.818182+08:00","text":"我做生意的營業稅，也是因為我做了這個生意有賺錢，所以我繳稅；所得稅更是，我有多少所得我才繳稅。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:47:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:48:13.750000+08:00","text":"但是因為你在遺產稅的時候是採總額擬制，使得沒有收到錢的人有可能要繳稅，這就是這次被解釋為違憲的最根本原因。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:48:14.615385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:06.090909+08:00","text":"我上次有在這邊跟你提過，日本的遺產稅是拿到遺產的人繳稅，它不是擬制整體，一個被繼承人有多少遺產可以被幾個人繼承、怎麼分配，這個清清楚楚，在日本沒有問題，因為如果你要讓我遺產更自由的話，例如我一直都跟長子住，很孝順，我遺囑裡面要給他50%；我也很照顧小兒子跟小女兒，但是他們經濟已經不錯了，我各給他們25%，我舉三個人繼承的案例，在日本就很清楚那三個小孩拿到的遺產，該去繳多少遺產稅。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:14.666667+08:00","text":"臺灣不是，你用擬制，假設有一個小兒子說：為什麼我是25%？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:16.500000+08:00","text":"我不要繳。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:17.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:24.750000+08:00","text":"那個案子就拖著，然後財產怎麼分配、怎麼分割，有時候都搞不清楚。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:27.555556+08:00","text":"我就不要分割，就告到法院去。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:49:54.777778+08:00","text":"所以誰收到多少錢、拿到多少錢，由他來繳稅，這樣子的制度日本已經實施非常多年，也沒什麼弊端；我們臺灣，你們就說因為過去的歷史，我們是擬制被繼承人的遺產總額，所以我們現在的稅制衍生非常多繼承上的問題，也衍生出這樣的案例。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:49:55.545455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:50:14.692308+08:00","text":"雖然針對大法官會議解釋本席也有提出修正案，但是這都只是局部的修正，根本的原因不解決，將來還會出現極端的案例，再聲請大法官會議解釋，大法官又再根據這個來考量，因為大法官的考量很清楚，沒有收到錢，為什麼要繳遺產稅？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:50:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:50:18.833333+08:00","text":"這是認為違憲、違反平等權的最大根本原因。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:50:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:50:36.750000+08:00","text":"所以你能不能考量，他繼承到多少遺產，就由他繼承遺產裡面照遺產稅該繳的稅率去繳，你覺得這樣是不是會比較清楚？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:50:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:50:37.600000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:50:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:50:59.800000+08:00","text":"委員在上次也有提過這樣的提議，我們知道，第一個遺產稅的計算當然回歸到繼承的制度，在民法裡面繼承一開始就是公同共有的狀態，除非他們去做遺產的協議分割，最不行的時候就判決分割，所以在公同共有的狀態其實沒有所謂的應有部分跟持分，所以我們課稅的時候就以遺產總額來扣。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:07.875000+08:00","text":"沒有，公同共有也有應有部分也有持分，只是公同共有的狀態之下，依照法律擬制，公同共有沒有結束之前沒有辦法分割。是。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:39.833333+08:00","text":"所以如果我們要用個別繼承人取得多少遺產以後，去分別計算遺產稅的話，那整個體制……我想這個部分委員提過很多次，第一個，我們可能會不會介入到遺產繼承人之間相互協議分割的一些狀態，他們如果一直沒有能夠達成協議的話，我們的遺產稅就沒有辦法開課，所以這個部分，委員的建議我們願意來做一個研議，或許我們可以做一個研究，也就是從整個遺產繼承的制度一直到後面遺產稅的課徵，我們可以做整體的討論。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:45.818182+08:00","text":"這個很容易，去日本取經就好了，日本就是照這樣的制度執行非常多年，你去日本取經就可以了。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:47.600000+08:00","text":"好，我們也可以去蒐集其他國際案子執行的情況。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:51:49.818182+08:00","text":"我跟你講，照臺灣這種制度很少啦！是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:51:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:03.600000+08:00","text":"這裡有一個最大的問題，就是你們為什麼要把被繼承人死亡之前兩年內的財產再算回來變成遺產？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:04.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:23.714286+08:00","text":"結果原因是因為你要採總額制度，不然照民法的原理，我生前已經處分的財產就不是被繼承的遺產了，你們要採這個制度所以會衍生非常多的問題，要圓這個制度就又會生很多的問題，好好的研究一下。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:26.333333+08:00","text":"我們整體來做一些研究，謝謝委員的指教。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:28.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:28.750000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳秉叡召委。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T10:52:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T10:52:31.818182+08:00","text":"接下來我們請顏寬恒委員。","quality":1}]},"gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（10時40分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：莊部長，剛剛聽你的報告，土地稅跟房屋稅是要授權地方政府對於婚育宅或是有未成年子女的房屋稅跟土地稅得為減免，還要經過地方自治條例由地方的議會來訂定嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：這裡面的稅損是估計50到70億，請問這個是怎麼算出來？因為既然是「得」，地方議會要訂定自治條例，他也不一定會訂定，或是他訂定的額度，你有規定嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是沒有，沒有錯。我們第一個就是以單一自住，也就是目前他是屬於在全國自用住宅裡面只有單一一戶的，這樣的家庭裡面是新婚或是有……"],["吳委員秉叡：我的問題是你的稅損是怎麼算出來的？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們稅損是看單一自住裡面，114年有315萬戶、115年有318萬戶，我們以這樣的戶數之下去做一定比例的推估。"],["吳委員秉叡：但問題是地方政府要給他減免多少也是不確定，地方議會要不要訂自治條例給予減免也不確定，所以你怎麼有辦法去估算出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們當然是用最大的來估，假設降為全免的情況下來做估計的數字。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，我要跟你講，剛剛有很多委員提出說這是叫「中央請客、地方買單」，我要跟你講，你的回答如果只有針對土地稅跟房屋稅減免這一部分，聽起來好像你在對這些婚育的、對這些年輕人不怎麼友善，因為你還不願意補嘛！但是你要知道少子女對策是套餐，有的要給錢、有的要給補助，有的公立幼兒園等等已經給了一大堆福利政策跟補貼了，這個只是錦上添花的一小部分，地方政府要不要減免、地方議會要不要通過自治條例都還在未定之天，所以好像在這裡跟你講50億、70億你也不肯負擔，好像中央政府很對不起這些人，我覺得你的回答針對問題是沒有錯，但是我們應該要再拉一個更高的層次來看，中央政府對於這些年輕人跟婚育有非常多的照顧，包括0到18歲一個月5,000塊不是嗎？然後幾歲以後還有一半要存專戶，存專戶是存5,000、領5,000，不是嗎？還是存2,500、領2,500？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，對於未成年子女，政府真的是如同委員所說的是整套的，這只是其中的一小項而已，包含育兒津貼，還有公托、幼托的時候，政府給予相關的補助，剛才還有提到這次新的成長津貼，成長津貼就是0到6歲的時候，每一個孩子每個月5,000塊是給家長，6歲以後到18歲就一半，2,500是給個人，然後2,500是存到專戶去，到他18歲滿的時候可以有第一桶金，這是政府整體的支出。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道。我的意思是說我們在看這個問題的時候要看政府整體，你在財政部考量政策的時候，別的委員講的也有點道理，中央政府給地方規定要對這些年輕人減稅，但是你強調「得」，所以他可以減、可以不減。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是問題是，如果居住在地方縣市，我舉個例子，臺北市有減，我新北市沒減，我心情就不好了。為什麼同樣是中華民國的國民，偏偏待遇差這麼多？但是如果用「應」的話，你是擔心被落實中央請客、地方買單，所以你是少多少就應該要補多少，過去地方都是用這樣的邏輯嘛！不過我跟你講，這裡你還要再考量一個小問題，我不知道你有沒有考量到，如果你這個減免沒有上限的話，假設減多少你補多少，地方為了要選票，我全部都免掉，我免得越多越好，變成每一個地方的補助會不一樣。所以我覺得你這個政策的思考可能要再周延一點，如果地方政府真的訂這個條例，它能夠免的範圍最多到哪裡，是不是也要訂一個屋頂？這樣子你再來考量中央跟地方要不要一起適當地來負擔這個政策，我們來補助一部分，是不是合理？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，第一個，在範圍上已經是以單一自住，也就是本人、配偶及未成年子女全國只有一間房子，這樣的範圍裡面對於婚育家庭得以自用住宅，而這一類的家庭目前房屋稅只有1%，比基本的1.2%還低。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：自用住宅的地價稅也是千分之二，已經是地價稅最低的，在這個範圍裡面去做酌減。"],["吳委員秉叡：我如果是新北市，如果免多少中央補多少的話，新北市政府那些議員就全部都免掉、都免收，全部都由中央補啊！所以我的意思是你那個政策要考慮周延，我沒有要在這裡跟你講你應該要怎麼確定，因為畢竟這是財政部的職權，我是在這邊跟你互相切磋這個政策，所以要考量的很多。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：中央政府其實給予很大的照顧，在這一方面沒有辦法……你已經照顧了99分，最後這1分有人跟你argue，好像變成是你對不起人一樣，不要產生這樣錯誤的概念跟印象。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：我覺得千萬不要造成這樣的印象。第二個，中央政府的立場也不適宜讓每個地方政府的自治條例訂的不一樣，因為臺灣沒有多大的面積，所有國人都是希望別的地方政府享有的權益，我也要有；別的地方有的權益，我也要有。我舉個例子：以前新北市鄰長車馬補助費一個月1,500，但是臺北市2,500、桃園市2,500，被批評了很多年之後，現在侯市長從善如流，宣布7月1號開始也調為2,500，前面那幾年新北市的鄰長就說我們就矮人一截，也不能這樣說。所以如果地方的標準不一樣的話，大家感受也不好，這個也是得考慮看看。","最後，談到今天大法官會議解釋違憲這部分，就我念法律的角度來看，它真正的根源在哪裡呢？其實稅法有一個最基本、最高的原則，就是拿到錢的人繳稅，對不對？我做生意的營業稅，也是因為我做了這個生意有賺錢，所以我繳稅；所得稅更是，我有多少所得我才繳稅。但是因為你在遺產稅的時候是採總額擬制，使得沒有收到錢的人有可能要繳稅，這就是這次被解釋為違憲的最根本原因。我上次有在這邊跟你提過，日本的遺產稅是拿到遺產的人繳稅，它不是擬制整體，一個被繼承人有多少遺產可以被幾個人繼承、怎麼分配，這個清清楚楚，在日本沒有問題，因為如果你要讓我遺產更自由的話，例如我一直都跟長子住，很孝順，我遺囑裡面要給他50%；我也很照顧小兒子跟小女兒，但是他們經濟已經不錯了，我各給他們25%，我舉三個人繼承的案例，在日本就很清楚那三個小孩拿到的遺產，該去繳多少遺產稅。臺灣不是，你用擬制，假設有一個小兒子說：為什麼我是25%？我不要繳。那個案子就拖著，然後財產怎麼分配、怎麼分割，有時候都搞不清楚。我就不要分割，就告到法院去。所以誰收到多少錢、拿到多少錢，由他來繳稅，這樣子的制度日本已經實施非常多年，也沒什麼弊端；我們臺灣，你們就說因為過去的歷史，我們是擬制被繼承人的遺產總額，所以我們現在的稅制衍生非常多繼承上的問題，也衍生出這樣的案例。雖然針對大法官會議解釋本席也有提出修正案，但是這都只是局部的修正，根本的原因不解決，將來還會出現極端的案例，再聲請大法官會議解釋，大法官又再根據這個來考量，因為大法官的考量很清楚，沒有收到錢，為什麼要繳遺產稅？這是認為違憲、違反平等權的最大根本原因。所以你能不能考量，他繼承到多少遺產，就由他繼承遺產裡面照遺產稅該繳的稅率去繳，你覺得這樣是不是會比較清楚？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。委員在上次也有提過這樣的提議，我們知道，第一個遺產稅的計算當然回歸到繼承的制度，在民法裡面繼承一開始就是公同共有的狀態，除非他們去做遺產的協議分割，最不行的時候就判決分割，所以在公同共有的狀態其實沒有所謂的應有部分跟持分，所以我們課稅的時候就以遺產總額來扣。"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有，公同共有也有應有部分也有持分，只是公同共有的狀態之下，依照法律擬制，公同共有沒有結束之前沒有辦法分割。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。所以如果我們要用個別繼承人取得多少遺產以後，去分別計算遺產稅的話，那整個體制……我想這個部分委員提過很多次，第一個，我們可能會不會介入到遺產繼承人之間相互協議分割的一些狀態，他們如果一直沒有能夠達成協議的話，我們的遺產稅就沒有辦法開課，所以這個部分，委員的建議我們願意來做一個研議，或許我們可以做一個研究，也就是從整個遺產繼承的制度一直到後面遺產稅的課徵，我們可以做整體的討論。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個很容易，去日本取經就好了，日本就是照這樣的制度執行非常多年，你去日本取經就可以了。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們也可以去蒐集其他國際案子執行的情況。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，照臺灣這種制度很少啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：這裡有一個最大的問題，就是你們為什麼要把被繼承人死亡之前兩年內的財產再算回來變成遺產？結果原因是因為你要採總額制度，不然照民法的原理，我生前已經處分的財產就不是被繼承的遺產了，你們要採這個制度所以會衍生非常多的問題，要圓這個制度就又會生很多的問題，好好的研究一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們整體來做一些研究，謝謝委員的指教。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡召委。","接下來我們請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":408,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-23","speakers":["吳秉叡","林楚茵","張智倫","賴士葆","林倩綺","林德福","郭國文","賴惠員","劉書彬","李坤城","林思銘","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王世堅","羅明才","鍾佳濱","許忠信","陳玉珍"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2026-07-22"],"gazette_id":"1156601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「遺產及贈與稅法」12案：（詢答）(一)本院委員吳秉叡等19人、委員郭昱晴等16人、\n委員林楚茵等16人、委員王美惠等17人、委員李坤城等19人、委員郭國文等21人分別擬具「遺產\n及贈與稅法部分條文修正草案」等6案、(二)本院委員賴惠員等16人擬具「遺產及贈與稅法第六\n條、第十五條及第十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員王鴻薇等18人、委員林思銘等18\n人分別擬具「遺產及贈與稅法第十五條條文修正草案」等2案、(四)本院委員張智倫等17人擬具\n「遺產及贈與稅法第十五條及第十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員李彥秀等16人擬具\n「遺產及贈與稅法第十五條、第十七條之一及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員賴士\n葆等26 人擬具「遺產及贈與稅法第三十條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案；二、審查「土地稅\n法」9案：（詢答）(一)本院委員李坤城等18人、委員馬文君等20人分別擬具「土地稅法增訂第\n十七條之一條文草案」等2案、(二)行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等 18人、委員傅崐萁等19\n人、委員李彥秀等18人、委員林倩綺等19人、委員賴士葆等41人、委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人\n分別擬具「土地稅法第十七條之一及第十九條條文修正草案」等7案；三、審查「房屋稅條例」9\n案：（詢答）(一)本院委員李坤城等19人、委員馬文君等21人分別擬具「房屋稅條例增訂第五條\n之一條文草案」等2案、(二)行政院函請審議、本院委員王美惠等19人、委員傅崐萁等19人、委\n員李彥秀等18人、委員林倩綺等19人、委員賴士葆等41人、委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人分別擬\n具「房屋稅條例第五條之一及第六條條文修正草案」等7案","agenda_id":"1156601_00017"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}