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林教授部長有請"},{"start":2.6,"end":4.6000000000000005,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":13.82,"end":15.620000000000001,"text":"好 部長午安"},{"start":15.620000000000001,"end":16.62,"text":"各位好"},{"start":16.62,"end":20.22,"text":"最近這個中國大陸在南海可以說是動作頻頻"},{"start":20.22,"end":24.14,"text":"這個方法不管怎麼樣來使用"},{"start":24.14,"end":26.14,"text":"這個動作越來越大 是一個事實"},{"start":26.64,"end":30.54,"text":"那比如說最近不管是這個仁愛交惡中間的衝突"},{"start":30.54,"end":34.84,"text":"或者是開始談到所謂的八單群島自古屬於中國"},{"start":34.84,"end":37.8,"text":"這樣的一個新的敘事跑出來等等"},{"start":37.8,"end":40.84,"text":"那其實都彰顯著他們的野心勃勃"},{"start":40.84,"end":42.2,"text":"那關鍵的問題是這樣"},{"start":42.2,"end":44.040000000000006,"text":"就是說我們在因應這樣的狀況的時候"},{"start":44.040000000000006,"end":46.480000000000004,"text":"大家都關心著中華民國政府的態度是什麼"},{"start":46.480000000000004,"end":47.32,"text":"做了哪些事情"},{"start":47.32,"end":49.88,"text":"所以今天找了幾個問題就叫部長"},{"start":49.88,"end":51.6,"text":"這部長在報告的第四頁有寫到"},{"start":51.6,"end":54.400000000000006,"text":"說我們駐飛的代表處的人員非常的積極"},{"start":54.4,"end":57.1,"text":"出席了非常多場的南海的論壇"},{"start":57.1,"end":59.339999999999996,"text":"那麼因應這些局勢的"},{"start":59.339999999999996,"end":62.62,"text":"姑且講升溫吧 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我們這個駐處的同仁在參加很多場"},{"start":92.8,"end":95.8,"text":"南海相關一點論壇的時候"},{"start":95.8,"end":99.32000000000001,"text":"其實主要都是在去重申我們政府的既定的立場"},{"start":99.32000000000001,"end":102.60000000000001,"text":"就是我們跟南海其他聲索國多半都遵守國際法"},{"start":102.60000000000001,"end":106.60000000000001,"text":"還有聯合國海航公約以及秉持互相尊重的立場"},{"start":106.60000000000001,"end":108.60000000000001,"text":"透過對話跟國際會議等機制"},{"start":108.60000000000001,"end":110.60000000000001,"text":"透過和平的方式處理問題"},{"start":110.6,"end":111.89999999999999,"text":"四點原則嘛 對不對"},{"start":111.89999999999999,"end":114.3,"text":"所以你參加了很多的論壇數量非常多"},{"start":114.3,"end":115.5,"text":"但講的東西其實都一樣"},{"start":115.5,"end":117.5,"text":"而且是以前到現在都一樣 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":117.5,"end":119.5,"text":"應該是說只要參加這樣的議題"},{"start":119.5,"end":122.1,"text":"我們的助管人員都會重申政府的立場"},{"start":122.1,"end":123.5,"text":"OK 重申政府的立場"},{"start":123.5,"end":126.3,"text":"所以我部長 我之所以問這個問題就是這樣"},{"start":126.3,"end":129.7,"text":"就是說 這本來就是博弈 外交 對不對"},{"start":129.7,"end":133.29999999999998,"text":"我往前進一步 然後測試大家的一個反應"},{"start":133.29999999999998,"end":135.7,"text":"那現在看起來 我們的反應好像是我們停在原地不動"},{"start":135.7,"end":137.29999999999998,"text":"是這個方針嗎"},{"start":137.4,"end":141.20000000000002,"text":"因為中共它要把台海 東海 南海"},{"start":141.20000000000002,"end":144.20000000000002,"text":"其實都在全面發動 就是擴張嘛"},{"start":144.20000000000002,"end":146.20000000000002,"text":"我們當然要去找朋友啊"},{"start":146.20000000000002,"end":149.4,"text":"因為不然的話我們老是變成台海兩岸的問題"},{"start":149.4,"end":155.20000000000002,"text":"所以區域啊 這些有關於共同關切的這一些島礁領海"},{"start":155.20000000000002,"end":158.20000000000002,"text":"或是我們這些相關的議題"},{"start":158.20000000000002,"end":160.20000000000002,"text":"其實台灣就是利害關係了"},{"start":160.20000000000002,"end":163.4,"text":"我們希望積極的參與 不要被排除在外"},{"start":163.4,"end":166.20000000000002,"text":"你今天講積極的參與這些東西 大家都同意的"},{"start":166.29999999999998,"end":168.29999999999998,"text":"但我的意思是說 在局勢改變的時候"},{"start":168.29999999999998,"end":169.5,"text":"你的立場如果都沒有變"},{"start":169.5,"end":172.5,"text":"那可能這個 大家就不當一回事嘛"},{"start":172.5,"end":173.5,"text":"反正習慣成自然"},{"start":173.5,"end":177.2,"text":"那我們去找出交集 來促進共同的利益"},{"start":177.2,"end":180,"text":"有一些爭議 我們可以擱置一下"},{"start":180,"end":183.2,"text":"當然 但我的意思是說 當你這樣長期的一個主張的時候"},{"start":183.2,"end":185.1,"text":"對 大家都這樣說 但好像說一說"},{"start":185.1,"end":186.7,"text":"好像也沒有什麼實際的作為啊"},{"start":186.7,"end":188.2,"text":"請問這樣子長期的倡議"},{"start":188.2,"end":190.39999999999998,"text":"即便我們的立場是非常保守 而且不變"},{"start":190.39999999999998,"end":194.1,"text":"這這樣的一個情況之下 哪一些現實改變"},{"start":194.1,"end":198.1,"text":"有啊 比如說我們共同有一些可以維持區域和平穩定"},{"start":198.1,"end":200.6,"text":"大家都要資訊分享啦"},{"start":200.6,"end":207.6,"text":"包括像比如說這種涉及到跟可能海巡的交流啦"},{"start":207.6,"end":214.1,"text":"所有這些其實都是在找出跟我們的理念相近國家的交集"},{"start":214.1,"end":216.6,"text":"有些東西也只能做 不能夠說"},{"start":216.6,"end":219.6,"text":"視角來看 那個結論就是 中國大陸步步進逼"},{"start":219.6,"end":223.1,"text":"這些東西要維持同樣的聲明 或是類似的立場"},{"start":223.1,"end":225.6,"text":"我們顯然好像沒有辦法改變什麼事實 有這樣的可能性"},{"start":225.6,"end":227.6,"text":"當然 我們不是沒有扭轉的機會"},{"start":227.6,"end":232.6,"text":"因為菲律賓的小馬可斯 他們今年要擔任東協的峰會主席國"},{"start":232.6,"end":235.1,"text":"然後他們也明確的做了一個宣示"},{"start":235.1,"end":236.6,"text":"你看人家的宣示就是有不一樣"},{"start":236.6,"end":239.6,"text":"我不一樣的身分的時候 我可能有不一樣的角色 不一樣的宣示"},{"start":239.6,"end":241.6,"text":"比如說他要輪值 東協峰會的主席國"},{"start":241.6,"end":244.6,"text":"他就會講說 我要在COC談判 南海行為準則上面"},{"start":244.6,"end":247.1,"text":"我必須要推進他往前嘛"},{"start":247.1,"end":250.6,"text":"那當然 我們現在每一次也都講說"},{"start":250.6,"end":252.6,"text":"我們希望不要被排除在外"},{"start":252.6,"end":255.1,"text":"希望可以真的落實一些什麼樣的事情"},{"start":255.1,"end":259.6,"text":"那請問 正你剛剛講 我們維持四點原則 立場是不變的"},{"start":259.6,"end":261.6,"text":"對外態度看起來是比較保守"},{"start":261.6,"end":264.6,"text":"那請問 你能不能把握菲律賓輪值主席國這一次"},{"start":264.6,"end":267.1,"text":"在COC談判上取得具體的進展"},{"start":267.1,"end":269.6,"text":"我指的具體進展 比如說你真的真實的參與了一個談判"},{"start":269.6,"end":272.6,"text":"或者是有中華民國的一些共同的付出或努力"},{"start":272.6,"end":275.6,"text":"你聯合了所謂的民主大聯盟的盟邦等等"},{"start":275.6,"end":279.1,"text":"然後去具體推動南海行為準則的一些更具體的進展"},{"start":279.1,"end":281.1,"text":"外交部有沒有設立相關的一些KPI"},{"start":281.1,"end":282.6,"text":"我們可以期待這樣的事嗎"},{"start":282.6,"end":285.1,"text":"因為我們並不是所謂東協"},{"start":285.1,"end":291.1,"text":"在跟中國 包括在處理南海行為準則的被邀請"},{"start":291.1,"end":292.6,"text":"或者是成員"},{"start":292.6,"end":296.6,"text":"但是我們也透過學者專家各種方式去參與這個"},{"start":296.6,"end":299.1,"text":"包括一些論壇等等"},{"start":299.1,"end":303.1,"text":"那我們是有一些是雙邊關係 我們也可以去鏈接"},{"start":303.1,"end":305.1,"text":"因為事實上 我剛剛講的COC"},{"start":305.1,"end":307.6,"text":"你可以第二軌 可以雙邊 個別 都可以的"},{"start":307.6,"end":308.6,"text":"方法你可以多元"},{"start":308.6,"end":310.6,"text":"但具體來講 你有沒有什麼具體目標"},{"start":310.6,"end":313.6,"text":"具體目標就是我們的視點原則"},{"start":313.6,"end":316.6,"text":"我們的立場能夠宣示以外"},{"start":316.6,"end":319.6,"text":"我們希望各自爭議共同開發"},{"start":319.6,"end":321.1,"text":"我們從自己做起"},{"start":321.1,"end":325.1,"text":"當然我們跟各方都有一些可能的"},{"start":325.1,"end":328.6,"text":"就是說也可能有共同利益 也可能有衝突"},{"start":328.6,"end":329.6,"text":"那怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":329.6,"end":331.6,"text":"這就是當然除了外交之外"},{"start":331.6,"end":334.1,"text":"也涉及到各個單位也都有在進行"},{"start":334.1,"end":337.1,"text":"所以你的關鍵是你怎麼樣說服其他的國家"},{"start":337.1,"end":338.6,"text":"由我國家 對吧"},{"start":338.6,"end":340.6,"text":"然後共同透過什麼樣的行動"},{"start":340.6,"end":343.1,"text":"不過要簽訂這個南海行為準則"},{"start":343.1,"end":345.6,"text":"因為它意識性還有衝突很複雜"},{"start":345.6,"end":347.1,"text":"所以這個是目標"},{"start":347.1,"end":352.1,"text":"但是尤其現在跟非中的關係這麼緊張"},{"start":352.1,"end":354.1,"text":"真的是不容樂觀"},{"start":354.1,"end":357.1,"text":"但是我們也是密切關心"},{"start":357.1,"end":361.1,"text":"跟做一些我們希望能夠積極來去參與"},{"start":361.1,"end":362.1,"text":"部長你講了很多"},{"start":362.1,"end":363.6,"text":"但大底上你還是講說"},{"start":363.6,"end":365.6,"text":"我希望可以維持這視點原則的立場"},{"start":365.6,"end":368.1,"text":"但是對於這件事情是否推進你是悲觀的態度"},{"start":368.1,"end":369.1,"text":"是這個意思嗎"},{"start":369.1,"end":372.1,"text":"不是啦 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把我們矮化甚至否定的時候"},{"start":734.6,"end":736.6,"text":"我們怎麼知道"},{"start":736.6,"end":738.6,"text":"這個也恪行人員安全"},{"start":738.6,"end":740.6,"text":"我們也不能夠把雞蛋都放在同樣一個籃子裡面"},{"start":740.6,"end":743.6,"text":"所以你現在祭出這樣的一個手段之後"},{"start":743.6,"end":744.6,"text":"他們軟化了沒"},{"start":744.6,"end":745.6,"text":"我們要問的是成果"},{"start":745.6,"end":747.6,"text":"需要時間來消化"},{"start":747.6,"end":748.6,"text":"你還需要多久的時間"},{"start":748.6,"end":750.6,"text":"我們就持續交涉中"},{"start":750.6,"end":752.6,"text":"然後我們的友盟也溝通"},{"start":752.6,"end":753.6,"text":"然後他們也表示立場"},{"start":753.6,"end":754.6,"text":"也聲援台灣"},{"start":754.6,"end":757.6,"text":"而且也認為是中共的經濟脅迫"},{"start":757.6,"end":760.6,"text":"這個東西對台灣對我們的全球夥伴"},{"start":760.6,"end":765.6,"text":"進行這一種就是說這種打壓"},{"start":765.6,"end":768.6,"text":"這個是不符合這些"},{"start":768.6,"end":770.6,"text":"你講的這些大道理大家都知道"},{"start":770.6,"end":771.6,"text":"大家都知道"},{"start":771.6,"end":773.6,"text":"但問題是我們都是看很實際的東西"},{"start":773.6,"end":775.6,"text":"我跟委員報告其實表面上是"},{"start":775.6,"end":777.6,"text":"八牛跟台灣的關係"},{"start":777.6,"end":779.6,"text":"背後是更複雜的地緣政治"},{"start":779.6,"end":781.6,"text":"我們也是利害關係人"},{"start":781.6,"end":782.6,"text":"你都提了"},{"start":782.6,"end":784.6,"text":"我必須要去"},{"start":784.6,"end":786.6,"text":"你剛才回答馬文鈞委員質詢的時候"},{"start":786.6,"end":788.6,"text":"你有講有試射其他國家的態度"},{"start":788.6,"end":789.6,"text":"哪些國家"},{"start":789.6,"end":791.6,"text":"他們制裁裡面有角色"},{"start":791.6,"end":792.6,"text":"我不能替他們講"},{"start":792.6,"end":795.6,"text":"但是他們陸續都有表示意見"},{"start":795.6,"end":798.6,"text":"而且這個就是共同大家的利害關係"},{"start":798.6,"end":800.6,"text":"已經不是說台灣跟八牛之間"},{"start":800.6,"end":803.6,"text":"所以這些其他國家是阻止我們打這張牌"},{"start":803.6,"end":805.6,"text":"還是鼓勵我們打這張牌"},{"start":805.6,"end":808.6,"text":"應該說他們都樂見台灣留在八牛"},{"start":808.6,"end":810.6,"text":"所以他鼓勵你"},{"start":810.6,"end":811.6,"text":"所以我們大家一起來努力"},{"start":811.6,"end":813.6,"text":"我們也希望說太平洋不要被中國"},{"start":813.6,"end":815.6,"text":"他這個擴張"},{"start":815.6,"end":816.6,"text":"他那個三十斤吞"},{"start":816.6,"end":817.6,"text":"我講他們破壞約到"},{"start":817.6,"end":818.6,"text":"而且如果要簽安全協定"},{"start":818.6,"end":821.6,"text":"或透過控制他的基礎建設"},{"start":821.6,"end":822.6,"text":"港口機場"},{"start":822.6,"end":824.6,"text":"那個問題是很嚴重"},{"start":824.6,"end":826.6,"text":"像那個基里巴斯就是一個例子"},{"start":826.6,"end":828.6,"text":"現在很多地緣政治上面"},{"start":828.6,"end":829.6,"text":"天涯的國家"},{"start":829.6,"end":831.6,"text":"那問題是八牛政府被說服了沒"},{"start":831.6,"end":832.6,"text":"現在你講有外部在"},{"start":832.6,"end":834.6,"text":"沒有 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