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林教授部長有請"},{"start":2.6,"end":4.6000000000000005,"text":"請林部長"},{"start":13.82,"end":15.620000000000001,"text":"好 部長午安"},{"start":15.620000000000001,"end":16.62,"text":"各位好"},{"start":16.62,"end":20.22,"text":"最近這個中國大陸在南海可以說是動作頻頻"},{"start":20.22,"end":24.14,"text":"這個方法不管怎麼樣來使用"},{"start":24.14,"end":26.14,"text":"這個動作越來越大 是一個事實"},{"start":26.64,"end":30.54,"text":"那比如說最近不管是這個仁愛交惡中間的衝突"},{"start":30.54,"end":34.84,"text":"或者是開始談到所謂的八單群島自古屬於中國"},{"start":34.84,"end":37.8,"text":"這樣的一個新的敘事跑出來等等"},{"start":37.8,"end":40.84,"text":"那其實都彰顯著他們的野心勃勃"},{"start":40.84,"end":42.2,"text":"那關鍵的問題是這樣"},{"start":42.2,"end":44.040000000000006,"text":"就是說我們在因應這樣的狀況的時候"},{"start":44.040000000000006,"end":46.480000000000004,"text":"大家都關心著中華民國政府的態度是什麼"},{"start":46.480000000000004,"end":47.32,"text":"做了哪些事情"},{"start":47.32,"end":49.88,"text":"所以今天找了幾個問題就叫部長"},{"start":49.88,"end":51.6,"text":"這部長在報告的第四頁有寫到"},{"start":51.6,"end":54.400000000000006,"text":"說我們駐飛的代表處的人員非常的積極"},{"start":54.4,"end":57.1,"text":"出席了非常多場的南海的論壇"},{"start":57.1,"end":59.339999999999996,"text":"那麼因應這些局勢的"},{"start":59.339999999999996,"end":62.62,"text":"姑且講升溫吧 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我們這個駐處的同仁在參加很多場"},{"start":92.8,"end":95.8,"text":"南海相關一點論壇的時候"},{"start":95.8,"end":99.32000000000001,"text":"其實主要都是在去重申我們政府的既定的立場"},{"start":99.32000000000001,"end":102.60000000000001,"text":"就是我們跟南海其他聲索國多半都遵守國際法"},{"start":102.60000000000001,"end":106.60000000000001,"text":"還有聯合國海航公約以及秉持互相尊重的立場"},{"start":106.60000000000001,"end":108.60000000000001,"text":"透過對話跟國際會議等機制"},{"start":108.60000000000001,"end":110.60000000000001,"text":"透過和平的方式處理問題"},{"start":110.6,"end":111.89999999999999,"text":"四點原則嘛 對不對"},{"start":111.89999999999999,"end":114.3,"text":"所以你參加了很多的論壇數量非常多"},{"start":114.3,"end":115.5,"text":"但講的東西其實都一樣"},{"start":115.5,"end":117.5,"text":"而且是以前到現在都一樣 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":117.5,"end":119.5,"text":"應該是說只要參加這樣的議題"},{"start":119.5,"end":122.1,"text":"我們的助管人員都會重申政府的立場"},{"start":122.1,"end":123.5,"text":"OK 重申政府的立場"},{"start":123.5,"end":126.3,"text":"所以我部長 我之所以問這個問題就是這樣"},{"start":126.3,"end":129.7,"text":"就是說 這本來就是博弈 外交 對不對"},{"start":129.7,"end":133.29999999999998,"text":"我往前進一步 然後測試大家的一個反應"},{"start":133.29999999999998,"end":135.7,"text":"那現在看起來 我們的反應好像是我們停在原地不動"},{"start":135.7,"end":137.29999999999998,"text":"是這個方針嗎"},{"start":137.4,"end":141.20000000000002,"text":"因為中共它要把台海 東海 南海"},{"start":141.20000000000002,"end":144.20000000000002,"text":"其實都在全面發動 就是擴張嘛"},{"start":144.20000000000002,"end":146.20000000000002,"text":"我們當然要去找朋友啊"},{"start":146.20000000000002,"end":149.4,"text":"因為不然的話我們老是變成台海兩岸的問題"},{"start":149.4,"end":155.20000000000002,"text":"所以區域啊 這些有關於共同關切的這一些島礁領海"},{"start":155.20000000000002,"end":158.20000000000002,"text":"或是我們這些相關的議題"},{"start":158.20000000000002,"end":160.20000000000002,"text":"其實台灣就是利害關係了"},{"start":160.20000000000002,"end":163.4,"text":"我們希望積極的參與 不要被排除在外"},{"start":163.4,"end":166.20000000000002,"text":"你今天講積極的參與這些東西 大家都同意的"},{"start":166.29999999999998,"end":168.29999999999998,"text":"但我的意思是說 在局勢改變的時候"},{"start":168.29999999999998,"end":169.5,"text":"你的立場如果都沒有變"},{"start":169.5,"end":172.5,"text":"那可能這個 大家就不當一回事嘛"},{"start":172.5,"end":173.5,"text":"反正習慣成自然"},{"start":173.5,"end":177.2,"text":"那我們去找出交集 來促進共同的利益"},{"start":177.2,"end":180,"text":"有一些爭議 我們可以擱置一下"},{"start":180,"end":183.2,"text":"當然 但我的意思是說 當你這樣長期的一個主張的時候"},{"start":183.2,"end":185.1,"text":"對 大家都這樣說 但好像說一說"},{"start":185.1,"end":186.7,"text":"好像也沒有什麼實際的作為啊"},{"start":186.7,"end":188.2,"text":"請問這樣子長期的倡議"},{"start":188.2,"end":190.39999999999998,"text":"即便我們的立場是非常保守 而且不變"},{"start":190.39999999999998,"end":194.1,"text":"這這樣的一個情況之下 哪一些現實改變"},{"start":194.1,"end":198.1,"text":"有啊 比如說我們共同有一些可以維持區域和平穩定"},{"start":198.1,"end":200.6,"text":"大家都要資訊分享啦"},{"start":200.6,"end":207.6,"text":"包括像比如說這種涉及到跟可能海巡的交流啦"},{"start":207.6,"end":214.1,"text":"所有這些其實都是在找出跟我們的理念相近國家的交集"},{"start":214.1,"end":216.6,"text":"有些東西也只能做 不能夠說"},{"start":216.6,"end":219.6,"text":"視角來看 那個結論就是 中國大陸步步進逼"},{"start":219.6,"end":223.1,"text":"這些東西要維持同樣的聲明 或是類似的立場"},{"start":223.1,"end":225.6,"text":"我們顯然好像沒有辦法改變什麼事實 有這樣的可能性"},{"start":225.6,"end":227.6,"text":"當然 我們不是沒有扭轉的機會"},{"start":227.6,"end":232.6,"text":"因為菲律賓的小馬可斯 他們今年要擔任東協的峰會主席國"},{"start":232.6,"end":235.1,"text":"然後他們也明確的做了一個宣示"},{"start":235.1,"end":236.6,"text":"你看人家的宣示就是有不一樣"},{"start":236.6,"end":239.6,"text":"我不一樣的身分的時候 我可能有不一樣的角色 不一樣的宣示"},{"start":239.6,"end":241.6,"text":"比如說他要輪值 東協峰會的主席國"},{"start":241.6,"end":244.6,"text":"他就會講說 我要在COC談判 南海行為準則上面"},{"start":244.6,"end":247.1,"text":"我必須要推進他往前嘛"},{"start":247.1,"end":250.6,"text":"那當然 我們現在每一次也都講說"},{"start":250.6,"end":252.6,"text":"我們希望不要被排除在外"},{"start":252.6,"end":255.1,"text":"希望可以真的落實一些什麼樣的事情"},{"start":255.1,"end":259.6,"text":"那請問 正你剛剛講 我們維持四點原則 立場是不變的"},{"start":259.6,"end":261.6,"text":"對外態度看起來是比較保守"},{"start":261.6,"end":264.6,"text":"那請問 你能不能把握菲律賓輪值主席國這一次"},{"start":264.6,"end":267.1,"text":"在COC談判上取得具體的進展"},{"start":267.1,"end":269.6,"text":"我指的具體進展 比如說你真的真實的參與了一個談判"},{"start":269.6,"end":272.6,"text":"或者是有中華民國的一些共同的付出或努力"},{"start":272.6,"end":275.6,"text":"你聯合了所謂的民主大聯盟的盟邦等等"},{"start":275.6,"end":279.1,"text":"然後去具體推動南海行為準則的一些更具體的進展"},{"start":279.1,"end":281.1,"text":"外交部有沒有設立相關的一些KPI"},{"start":281.1,"end":282.6,"text":"我們可以期待這樣的事嗎"},{"start":282.6,"end":285.1,"text":"因為我們並不是所謂東協"},{"start":285.1,"end":291.1,"text":"在跟中國 包括在處理南海行為準則的被邀請"},{"start":291.1,"end":292.6,"text":"或者是成員"},{"start":292.6,"end":296.6,"text":"但是我們也透過學者專家各種方式去參與這個"},{"start":296.6,"end":299.1,"text":"包括一些論壇等等"},{"start":299.1,"end":303.1,"text":"那我們是有一些是雙邊關係 我們也可以去鏈接"},{"start":303.1,"end":305.1,"text":"因為事實上 我剛剛講的COC"},{"start":305.1,"end":307.6,"text":"你可以第二軌 可以雙邊 個別 都可以的"},{"start":307.6,"end":308.6,"text":"方法你可以多元"},{"start":308.6,"end":310.6,"text":"但具體來講 你有沒有什麼具體目標"},{"start":310.6,"end":313.6,"text":"具體目標就是我們的視點原則"},{"start":313.6,"end":316.6,"text":"我們的立場能夠宣示以外"},{"start":316.6,"end":319.6,"text":"我們希望各自爭議共同開發"},{"start":319.6,"end":321.1,"text":"我們從自己做起"},{"start":321.1,"end":325.1,"text":"當然我們跟各方都有一些可能的"},{"start":325.1,"end":328.6,"text":"就是說也可能有共同利益 也可能有衝突"},{"start":328.6,"end":329.6,"text":"那怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":329.6,"end":331.6,"text":"這就是當然除了外交之外"},{"start":331.6,"end":334.1,"text":"也涉及到各個單位也都有在進行"},{"start":334.1,"end":337.1,"text":"所以你的關鍵是你怎麼樣說服其他的國家"},{"start":337.1,"end":338.6,"text":"由我國家 對吧"},{"start":338.6,"end":340.6,"text":"然後共同透過什麼樣的行動"},{"start":340.6,"end":343.1,"text":"不過要簽訂這個南海行為準則"},{"start":343.1,"end":345.6,"text":"因為它意識性還有衝突很複雜"},{"start":345.6,"end":347.1,"text":"所以這個是目標"},{"start":347.1,"end":352.1,"text":"但是尤其現在跟非中的關係這麼緊張"},{"start":352.1,"end":354.1,"text":"真的是不容樂觀"},{"start":354.1,"end":357.1,"text":"但是我們也是密切關心"},{"start":357.1,"end":361.1,"text":"跟做一些我們希望能夠積極來去參與"},{"start":361.1,"end":362.1,"text":"部長你講了很多"},{"start":362.1,"end":363.6,"text":"但大底上你還是講說"},{"start":363.6,"end":365.6,"text":"我希望可以維持這視點原則的立場"},{"start":365.6,"end":368.1,"text":"但是對於這件事情是否推進你是悲觀的態度"},{"start":368.1,"end":369.1,"text":"是這個意思嗎"},{"start":369.1,"end":372.1,"text":"不是啦 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把我們矮化甚至否定的時候"},{"start":734.6,"end":736.6,"text":"我們怎麼知道"},{"start":736.6,"end":738.6,"text":"這個也恪行人員安全"},{"start":738.6,"end":740.6,"text":"我們也不能夠把雞蛋都放在同樣一個籃子裡面"},{"start":740.6,"end":743.6,"text":"所以你現在祭出這樣的一個手段之後"},{"start":743.6,"end":744.6,"text":"他們軟化了沒"},{"start":744.6,"end":745.6,"text":"我們要問的是成果"},{"start":745.6,"end":747.6,"text":"需要時間來消化"},{"start":747.6,"end":748.6,"text":"你還需要多久的時間"},{"start":748.6,"end":750.6,"text":"我們就持續交涉中"},{"start":750.6,"end":752.6,"text":"然後我們的友盟也溝通"},{"start":752.6,"end":753.6,"text":"然後他們也表示立場"},{"start":753.6,"end":754.6,"text":"也聲援台灣"},{"start":754.6,"end":757.6,"text":"而且也認為是中共的經濟脅迫"},{"start":757.6,"end":760.6,"text":"這個東西對台灣對我們的全球夥伴"},{"start":760.6,"end":765.6,"text":"進行這一種就是說這種打壓"},{"start":765.6,"end":768.6,"text":"這個是不符合這些"},{"start":768.6,"end":770.6,"text":"你講的這些大道理大家都知道"},{"start":770.6,"end":771.6,"text":"大家都知道"},{"start":771.6,"end":773.6,"text":"但問題是我們都是看很實際的東西"},{"start":773.6,"end":775.6,"text":"我跟委員報告其實表面上是"},{"start":775.6,"end":777.6,"text":"八牛跟台灣的關係"},{"start":777.6,"end":779.6,"text":"背後是更複雜的地緣政治"},{"start":779.6,"end":781.6,"text":"我們也是利害關係人"},{"start":781.6,"end":782.6,"text":"你都提了"},{"start":782.6,"end":784.6,"text":"我必須要去"},{"start":784.6,"end":786.6,"text":"你剛才回答馬文鈞委員質詢的時候"},{"start":786.6,"end":788.6,"text":"你有講有試射其他國家的態度"},{"start":788.6,"end":789.6,"text":"哪些國家"},{"start":789.6,"end":791.6,"text":"他們制裁裡面有角色"},{"start":791.6,"end":792.6,"text":"我不能替他們講"},{"start":792.6,"end":795.6,"text":"但是他們陸續都有表示意見"},{"start":795.6,"end":798.6,"text":"而且這個就是共同大家的利害關係"},{"start":798.6,"end":800.6,"text":"已經不是說台灣跟八牛之間"},{"start":800.6,"end":803.6,"text":"所以這些其他國家是阻止我們打這張牌"},{"start":803.6,"end":805.6,"text":"還是鼓勵我們打這張牌"},{"start":805.6,"end":808.6,"text":"應該說他們都樂見台灣留在八牛"},{"start":808.6,"end":810.6,"text":"所以他鼓勵你"},{"start":810.6,"end":811.6,"text":"所以我們大家一起來努力"},{"start":811.6,"end":813.6,"text":"我們也希望說太平洋不要被中國"},{"start":813.6,"end":815.6,"text":"他這個擴張"},{"start":815.6,"end":816.6,"text":"他那個三十斤吞"},{"start":816.6,"end":817.6,"text":"我講他們破壞約到"},{"start":817.6,"end":818.6,"text":"而且如果要簽安全協定"},{"start":818.6,"end":821.6,"text":"或透過控制他的基礎建設"},{"start":821.6,"end":822.6,"text":"港口機場"},{"start":822.6,"end":824.6,"text":"那個問題是很嚴重"},{"start":824.6,"end":826.6,"text":"像那個基里巴斯就是一個例子"},{"start":826.6,"end":828.6,"text":"現在很多地緣政治上面"},{"start":828.6,"end":829.6,"text":"天涯的國家"},{"start":829.6,"end":831.6,"text":"那問題是八牛政府被說服了沒"},{"start":831.6,"end":832.6,"text":"現在你講有外部在"},{"start":832.6,"end":834.6,"text":"沒有 它現在還是這樣子"},{"start":834.6,"end":835.6,"text":"還是這樣子"},{"start":835.6,"end":837.6,"text":"我們才剛開始在交涉中"},{"start":837.6,"end":840.6,"text":"這個部長既然你都話都講出來了"},{"start":840.6,"end":841.6,"text":"大家其實有期待"},{"start":841.6,"end":843.6,"text":"我講外交上可以操之在"},{"start":843.6,"end":845.6,"text":"有條件的時候有的時候要強硬以對"},{"start":845.6,"end":847.6,"text":"我們現在先爭取點時間"},{"start":847.6,"end":848.6,"text":"可以做交涉"},{"start":848.6,"end":850.6,"text":"然後有空間之後"},{"start":850.6,"end":852.6,"text":"我們也希望這個事情有轉圜的"},{"start":852.6,"end":853.6,"text":"我最後就提醒你"},{"start":853.6,"end":854.6,"text":"你要一段時間來操作"},{"start":854.6,"end":855.6,"text":"因為總是要試探一下"},{"start":855.6,"end":856.6,"text":"這本錢也都理解"},{"start":856.6,"end":857.6,"text":"這是外交的常理"},{"start":857.6,"end":859.6,"text":"但是問題是你不能到最後"},{"start":859.6,"end":860.6,"text":"拖著拖著"},{"start":860.6,"end":862.6,"text":"輿論風頭過了就傳過水無痕"},{"start":862.6,"end":863.6,"text":"這樣就非常不好"},{"start":863.6,"end":865.6,"text":"就表示你疑似要打這張牌"},{"start":865.6,"end":866.6,"text":"但沒有獲知任何的效果"},{"start":866.6,"end":867.6,"text":"你也沒有辦法貫徹"},{"start":867.6,"end":868.6,"text":"那我覺得在外交上"},{"start":868.6,"end":870.6,"text":"他就會留下負面的印象"},{"start":870.6,"end":872.6,"text":"因為人家就吃定你軟弱"},{"start":872.6,"end":873.6,"text":"不能這樣子"},{"start":873.6,"end":874.6,"text":"這我提醒一下部長"},{"start":874.6,"end":876.6,"text":"不管你最後的結果"},{"start":876.6,"end":877.6,"text":"你要換到具體的成果"},{"start":877.6,"end":878.6,"text":"要跟國人大眾說清楚說明"},{"start":878.6,"end":879.6,"text":"不然這張牌就白打"},{"start":879.6,"end":880.6,"text":"不要說指紋柔體響"},{"start":880.6,"end":881.6,"text":"不見得忍下來好不好"},{"start":881.6,"end":882.6,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":882.6,"end":883.6,"text":"辛苦部長謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:02:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:02:24.709091+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:02:24.945455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:02:25.890909+08:00","text":"有請林佳龍部長。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T11:02:26.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:02:28.100000+08:00","text":"請林部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:02:37.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:02:37.820000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:02:38.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:02:39.260000+08:00","text":"部長，午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:02:40.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:02:49.986154+08:00","text":"最近中國大陸在南海可以說是動作頻頻，方法不管怎麼樣來使用，動作越來越大是一個事實。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:02:50.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:04.622857+08:00","text":"比如最近不管是仁愛礁中間的衝突，或者是開始談到所謂巴丹群島自古屬於中國這樣的一個新的敘事跑出來等，其實都彰顯著他們的野心勃勃。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:04.991111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:10.344444+08:00","text":"關鍵問題是我們在因應這樣狀況的時候，大家都關心中華民國政府態度是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:10.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:11.180000+08:00","text":"做了哪些事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:11.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:13.697143+08:00","text":"所以今天找幾個問題就教部長。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:14.012308+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:29.868889+08:00","text":"部長在報告第4頁有提到，我們駐菲代表處人員非常積極出席非常多場的南海論壇，我們因應這些局勢姑且講升溫或者對手動作增加，我們在論壇裡面都談了一些什麼樣的重點？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:30.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:30.842222+08:00","text":"他談話的內容是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:31.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:34.978000+08:00","text":"參與是一定參與的，但問題是你在參與的時候，做了哪一些的主張？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:35.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:36.756000+08:00","text":"是不是請部長說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:36.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:39.630909+08:00","text":"來，我請亞太司副司長來說明一下。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:39.630909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:40.630909+08:00","text":"可以，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:39.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:50.600000+08:00","text":"我們頻繁地與臺菲有一些交流合作，包括辦論壇，所以這個方式其實也可以邀請更多國家來參加，透過菲律賓做一個平臺。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:50.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:03:52.550000+08:00","text":"司長來補充，沒關係。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉副司長昆豪","start":"2026-07-22T11:03:52.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:04:14.418182+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們駐處的同仁在參加很多場南海相關議題論壇的時候，其實主要都是在重申我們政府的既定立場，就是我們跟南海其他聲索國多半都遵守國際法、聯合國海洋法公約，以及秉持互相尊重的立場，透過對話跟國際會議等機制，透過和平方式處理問題……","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:04:14.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:04:15.737500+08:00","text":"四點原則嘛，對不對？是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:04:15.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:04:21.382353+08:00","text":"所以你參加了很多的論壇，數量非常多，但講的東西其實都一樣，而且是以前到現在都一樣，是這個意思嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉副司長昆豪","start":"2026-07-22T11:04:21.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:04:26.255556+08:00","text":"應該是說，只要參加這樣的議題，我們駐館人員都會重申政府的立場。OK！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:04:26.411111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:04:27.344444+08:00","text":"重申政府的立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:04:27.966667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:04:33.473333+08:00","text":"部長，我之所以問這個問題就是，這本來就是博弈外交，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:04:33.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:04:37.088235+08:00","text":"我往前進一步，測試大家的反應。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:04:37.409091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:04:41.033333+08:00","text":"現在看起來，我們的反應好像是停在原地不動，這是我國的方針嗎？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:04:41.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:05:07.200000+08:00","text":"因為中共現在把臺海、東海及南海都全面在發動，也就是擴張，我們大家去找朋友，因為不然的話，我們老是變成臺海兩岸的問題，所以區域有關於大家共同關切的這一些島礁領海或相關的議題，其實臺灣就是利害關係人，我們希望積極的參與，不要被排除在外。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:05:07.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:05:17.357143+08:00","text":"你今天講積極參與這些東西，當然大家都同意的，但我的意思是，在局勢改變的時候，你的立場如果都沒有變，可能大家就不當一回事，反正習慣成自然。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:05:17.357143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:05:18.357143+08:00","text":"我要再追問……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:05:17.731250+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:05:24.139130+08:00","text":"我們去找出交集來促進共同的利益，有一些爭議我們可以擱置一下。當然。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:05:24.278261+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:05:30.453846+08:00","text":"但我的意思是，當你這樣長期的一個主張的時候，大家都這樣說，但好像說一說，好像也沒有什麼實際作為。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:05:30.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:05:38.281818+08:00","text":"請問這樣長期的倡議，即便我們的立場是非常保守而且不變，這樣的情況之下，哪一些現實改變了？有啊！","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:05:38.463636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:05:44.322222+08:00","text":"比如我們共同有一些可以維持區域和平穩定，大家都要資訊分享啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:05:44.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:06:00.391667+08:00","text":"包括像比如這種涉及可能與海巡的交流，所有這些其實都是在找出跟我們理念相近國家的交集，有些東西只能做、不能夠說。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:06:00.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:06:09.491304+08:00","text":"部長，從國際關係視角來看，結論就是中國大陸步步進逼，這些東西要維持同樣的聲明，或者是類似的立場，但顯然好像沒有辦法改變什麼事實，有這樣可能性。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:06:09.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:06:16.400000+08:00","text":"當然我們不是沒有扭轉的機會，因為菲律賓的小馬可仕，他們今年要擔任東協峰會的主席國，對不對？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:06:16.957143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:06:30.850000+08:00","text":"他們也明確地做了一個宣示，你看人家的宣示就是不一樣，我不一樣身分的時候，我可能有不一樣的角色、不一樣的宣示，比如他要輪值東協峰會的主席國，他就會講，我要在談判南海行為準則（COC）上面，我必須要推進它往前嘛！","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:06:31.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:06:38.943750+08:00","text":"我們每一次也都講，我們希望不要被排除在外，希望可以真的落實一點什麼樣的事情。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:06:39.918182+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:06:50.921429+08:00","text":"你剛剛提到我們維持四點原則立場是不變的，對外態度看起來是比較保守，請問你能不能把握菲律賓輪值主席國這一次在COC的談判上取得具體的進展？","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:06:51.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:07:02.940909+08:00","text":"我指的具體進展比如你真實參與了一個談判，或者是有中華民國一些共同的付出或努力，你聯合了所謂民主大聯盟的盟邦等等，再具體推動南海行為準則一些更具體的進展。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:07:03.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:07:06.463636+08:00","text":"外交部有沒有設立相關的一些KPI，我們可以期待這樣的事嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:07:06.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:07:22.787500+08:00","text":"因為我們並不是所謂東協成員，跟中國在處理南海行為準則時沒有被邀請，但是我們也透過學者、專家各種方式去參與包括一些論壇等等。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:07:23.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:07:28.946154+08:00","text":"我們是有一些是雙邊關係也可以去鏈結，因為事實上你剛剛講的COC……是啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:07:29.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:07:32.457143+08:00","text":"你可以用各式各樣的方式像第二軌、雙邊、個別都可以的，方法你可以多元嘛！","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:07:32.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:07:34.466667+08:00","text":"但具體來講，你有沒有什麼具體目標？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:07:34.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:07:43.350000+08:00","text":"具體目標就是我們的四點原則，我們的立場能夠宣誓以外，希望擱置爭議、共同開發。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:07:43.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:07:57.921429+08:00","text":"我們從自己做起，當然我們跟各方都可能有一些共同利益，也可能有衝突，怎麼樣去處理，這就是當然除了外交之外，也會涉及到各個單位，這也都有在進行。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:07:58.766667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:02.350000+08:00","text":"關鍵是你怎麼樣說服其他的國家，就友我國家，對吧！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:02.933333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:04.433333+08:00","text":"共同透過什麼樣的行動及方式，把你的四點原則……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:04.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:09.407692+08:00","text":"不過要簽訂南海行為準則，因為它異質性及衝突很複雜……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:09.407692+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:10.407692+08:00","text":"對，這是核心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:09.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:17.814286+08:00","text":"所以這個是目標，但是尤其現在菲中關係這麼緊張，真的是不容樂觀。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:17.814286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:18.814286+08:00","text":"所以你覺得不樂觀。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:18.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:20.800000+08:00","text":"但是我們也密切關心啦！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:22.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:24.850000+08:00","text":"我們希望能夠積極來參與。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:25.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:32.933333+08:00","text":"部長，你講了很多，但大體上，你還是講說我希望可以維持這四點原則的立場，但對於這件事情是否推進，你是悲觀的態度，是這個意思嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:33.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:33.500000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:33.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:35.900000+08:00","text":"菲律賓今年是東協的主席國……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:36.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:36.850000+08:00","text":"他有擔任主席國的機會吧！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:37.281818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:38.918182+08:00","text":"當然他會努力想要去推嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:38.918182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:39.918182+08:00","text":"我們也……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:39.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:43.475000+08:00","text":"有中菲的摩擦在背後，當然你某一些層面，因為你有其他國家的聲明啊！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:43.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:49.400000+08:00","text":"其實大體上都跟我們四點原則很像，但他能不能具體改變現實現狀，推動這COC呢？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:49.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:51.266667+08:00","text":"你是悲觀的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:51.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:53.100000+08:00","text":"不容樂觀啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:53.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:54.100000+08:00","text":"不容樂觀。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:54.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:55.100000+08:00","text":"當然我們是密切關心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:53.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:08:58.418182+08:00","text":"沒關係，你講實話，我心態都很開放，因為這本來就是大家就事論事啦！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:08:59.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:09:13.377778+08:00","text":"我最後做一點提醒有關於這個題目，這報告內容也有提到，你們在宣傳的部分，因為今天很多委員都講媒宣費用很重要等等，你說我們曝光了113萬次，安排58場國際媒體專訪。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:09:13.742857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:09:22.400000+08:00","text":"我就很好奇了，你說20篇的社群貼文及113萬次的曝光，58次的專訪都是談南海的題目嗎？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:09:22.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:09:36.200000+08:00","text":"他們基本上只要來自於東協或是印太國家都會關心南海問題，其實南海的不確定性跟可能會擦槍走火的機會要密切注意。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:09:36.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:09:37.200000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你會後提供資料給我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:09:36.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:09:45.523077+08:00","text":"我很好奇，比如大家談臺海，它也都可能會擦邊，有可能專門談南海、可能談東南亞、可能談東協等等，有的談經濟、有的談政治，對不對？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:09:45.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:09:55.400000+08:00","text":"你講了很空泛，一百多萬次的曝光好像非常有效果，但本席是很關注，到底花了多少的力道跟集中度，在討論南海相關的議題？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:09:55.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:02.475000+08:00","text":"所以這個還是要麻煩一下外交部的同仁，你稍微整理一下，針對你們媒體曝光的詳細細目做個簡單的報告，會後提供給我。","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:02.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:09.457143+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，包括G7及現在IP4，他們都會提到臺海、東海跟南海，甚至把它並列。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:09.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:12.488889+08:00","text":"沒關係，你就整理出來就好，因為我覺得這些東西……好。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:12.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:15.433333+08:00","text":"我在受訪的時候，也是很強調這都互相關聯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:15.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:16.600000+08:00","text":"還有包含你受訪的內容嘛！好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:16.933333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:20.314286+08:00","text":"屬不屬於這個範圍之內，這要好好檢視一下。好。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:20.690909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:30.475000+08:00","text":"最後本席建議一下，因為馬總統的時代及陳水扁總統的時代，其實都有登島宣示主權等相關一些比較大的動作。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:30.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:37.457143+08:00","text":"這某些層面，我剛一開始問你，我說我們現在對這件事情總體態度來講，你還是四點原則都不變，你的說法都不變。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:37.933333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:45.433333+08:00","text":"具體來講說，你能不能在峰會裡把握機會推動，你也講你必須保守看待，這我都理解，但有些事情是我們可以做的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:45.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:10:56.266667+08:00","text":"我們海委會因為是主管機關，我們管碧玲主委也到了太平島，這些都是行為的表示。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:10:56.711111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:01.350000+08:00","text":"要思考一下這件事情，因為我是覺得這件事情完全可以做得到，操之在己嘛！","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:02.028571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:14.400000+08:00","text":"它有一定的政治宣誓的意味，你這樣才有角色，如果對方是步步進逼，我們是沉默以對，或者是保守以對的時候，難免被人家操作成習慣成自然、船過水無痕，那就危險了。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:14.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:23.377778+08:00","text":"所以你如果走多邊的狀況或是雙邊的時候，就會遇到一些障礙，以致於沒辦法推進的時候，我們可以操作一些操之在我的啦！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:23.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:24.457143+08:00","text":"這樣子才能夠安定……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:24.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:30.418182+08:00","text":"委員所言非常對，我們就是希望操之在己，就自己不斷地去落實。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:30.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:33.457143+08:00","text":"所以你會建議一下我們賴總統也登島宣示一下主權嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:33.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:39.350000+08:00","text":"有些東西我也沒辦法在這裡說，但是以前有這個例子，對不對？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:39.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:52.350000+08:00","text":"我們現在海委會主委也已經都有去，至於其他因為這涉及到很複雜的地緣政治上的連鎖反應，我們是說這曾經有，就是代表我們可以。當然。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:52.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:54.400000+08:00","text":"但是什麼樣的方式適合？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:54.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:11:59.200000+08:00","text":"這個都要盱衡大局來作整體評估。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:59.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:00.200000+08:00","text":"思考一下啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:11:59.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:08.457143+08:00","text":"外交部的處境一向都很艱難，本席完全都理解，但是處境艱難的時候，你可以做一些什麼來安定國內，我覺得這是很重要的，因為該我們講話的時候，這種聲音不能少。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:08.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:22.457143+08:00","text":"所以花一點點時間，我要請教一下，當馬文君委員、徐巧芯委員，我們都很關心巴紐這件事情，因為部長難得強硬，我有講嘛，我有引用你答詢的內容，我們的天然氣占巴紐輸出的三分之一，這是很大的數字，對吧？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:22.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:33.350000+08:00","text":"所以這其實是大家非常、非常關注的題目，但好像只聞樓梯響，你說我們不排除動用這樣子的外交籌碼，但後續呢？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:33.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:40.314286+08:00","text":"我們到底決定要用鐵腕，來鐵拳教育一下這些動不動就關閉我們代表處的這些國家了沒？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:40.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:48.350000+08:00","text":"我會這樣講當然也是跟經濟部有會過意見，最主要是因為對方的外交部部長說我們沒有經貿關係往來，明明就有啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:48.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:49.350000+08:00","text":"就有啊，對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:48.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:50.377778+08:00","text":"你不能睜眼睛說瞎話啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:50.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:52.446154+08:00","text":"這件事情是不是也是操之在我？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:52.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:12:59.100000+08:00","text":"當然，我們怎麼樣做……因為我們的外交不只是為了表態，而是要有效。是啊！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:59.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:11.350000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛講說我們本來的能源政策，或是一些所謂的油氣採購，政府本來就不斷在……因為最近包括中東的戰事，包括我們跟美國要採購及投資天然氣……","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:11.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:13.600000+08:00","text":"你是說巴紐在地的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:13.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:17.400000+08:00","text":"這些都必須放在整體上來評估……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:17.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:20.433333+08:00","text":"巴紐天然氣的總量會不會影響我國內經濟，你們自己評估，你總要評估嘛！","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:21.377778+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:27.314286+08:00","text":"你看中東戰事發生之後，我們在現貨市場上的調度其實相當靈活。對啊！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:27.781818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:32.475000+08:00","text":"針對一些長約我們也在檢討，比如我們跟卡達，因為我們現在有了經驗……","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:32.475000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:33.475000+08:00","text":"那就是有狀況嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:32.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:34.200000+08:00","text":"我們會轉換……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:34.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:35.200000+08:00","text":"你回答問題就好，到底……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:34.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:39+08:00","text":"因為從太平洋另外一邊過來的油氣，大概比較不會涉及戰爭的危險。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:39+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:40+08:00","text":"我們足不足以操作？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:39.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:41.466667+08:00","text":"你回答我，我們現在足不足以打天然氣這張牌？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:41.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:43.155556+08:00","text":"我們能不能夠打這張牌？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:43.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:44.488889+08:00","text":"我們有沒有這個條件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:44.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:46.266667+08:00","text":"外交是基於互惠平等嘛！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:46.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:48.433333+08:00","text":"如果對方不對我們平等對待，對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:48.822222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:50.377778+08:00","text":"又傷害我們的利益……是啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:50.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:58.369231+08:00","text":"我們當然必須要做檢討及必要的因應，這個部分我向委員報告，我們跟經濟部都有良好的討論。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:58.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:00.418182+08:00","text":"所以經濟部現在回饋的意見是什麼？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:00.885714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:04.400000+08:00","text":"但是有一些行為，比如在現貨市場上，我們有一些就可以不買啊！對啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:04.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:05.800000+08:00","text":"但是，是不是……因為我不是……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:05.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:06.800000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛問這個問題，就是問你現在的動作是什麼嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:12.433333+08:00","text":"我們不是為了不買，我們是為了希望讓對方了解我們的關係是有經貿的往來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:12.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:14.100000+08:00","text":"所以你要先嚇嚇他，對吧？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:14.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:15.100000+08:00","text":"簡單來說，就是這樣，是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:14.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:15.100000+08:00","text":"不是這樣講啦！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:16.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:18.377778+08:00","text":"是告訴他說：你講的不是事實。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:18.377778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:19.377778+08:00","text":"我們確實……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:18.781818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:20.418182+08:00","text":"我的意思是說對方回應了沒？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:20.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:24.377778+08:00","text":"你現在說不排除動用天然氣，我姑且講你先嚇嚇他，對吧？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:25.061538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:28.433333+08:00","text":"經貿方面，其實大家都是互惠嘛，不要說因為他們把它政治化，當然我們要提醒……","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:29.266667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:30.377778+08:00","text":"巴紐善意回應了沒？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:30.377778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:31.377778+08:00","text":"他了解這個事情的嚴重性嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:30.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:38.292308+08:00","text":"因為你看，我們跟他買天然氣，他卻把我們矮化，甚至否定的時候……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:38.292308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:39.292308+08:00","text":"就是過分嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:38.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:40.266667+08:00","text":"我們怎麼知道……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:40.266667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:41.266667+08:00","text":"當然嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:40.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:42.377778+08:00","text":"這個也涉及能源安全啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:42.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:44.500000+08:00","text":"我也不能夠把雞蛋都放在同樣一個籃子裡面？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:44.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:48.433333+08:00","text":"是啊，所以你現在祭出這樣一個手段之後，他們軟化了沒？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:48.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:49.475000+08:00","text":"我們要問的是成果。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:49.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:51.314286+08:00","text":"需要時間來消化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:51.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:52.488889+08:00","text":"你還需要多久的時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:52.488889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:53.488889+08:00","text":"這部分我們要關注。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:53.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:12.225000+08:00","text":"我們持續交涉中，然後也跟我們的友盟溝通，他們也表示聲援臺灣的立場，而且認為是中共的經濟脅迫，對臺灣、對我們的全球夥伴進行這種打壓，這個是不符合這些……","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:12.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:14.446154+08:00","text":"你講的這些大道理，大家都知道啦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:15.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:17.466667+08:00","text":"但問題是我們都是看很實際的東西嘛，所以你一定要繼續……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:17.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:23.418182+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，表面上是巴紐跟臺灣的關係，背後是更複雜的地緣政治。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:23.418182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:24.418182+08:00","text":"對，你剛剛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:23.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:25.377778+08:00","text":"所以我們也是利害關係人。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:25.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:26.600000+08:00","text":"你都提了，我跟你講說，有事涉……","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:28.200000+08:00","text":"我必須要去……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:28.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:33.350000+08:00","text":"你剛才回答馬文君委員的質詢時，有講事涉其他國家的態度，哪些國家？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:33.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:35.377778+08:00","text":"他們在裡面有角色，是因為他背後有角色，還是說代表……","quality":0.318},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:35.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:44.433333+08:00","text":"我不能替他們講，但是他們陸續都有表示意見，而且這個就是大家共同的利害關係，已經不是臺灣跟巴紐之間而已。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:44.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:49.400000+08:00","text":"所以這些其他國家是阻止我們打這張牌，還是鼓勵我們打這張牌？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:49.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:51.957143+08:00","text":"應該說，他們都樂見臺灣留在巴紐。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:52.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:54.266667+08:00","text":"所以他鼓勵你這樣處理嘛！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:54.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:59.200000+08:00","text":"所以大家一起來努力嘛，我們也希望太平洋不要被中國擴張……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:59.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:01.800000+08:00","text":"人家就是蠶食鯨吞嘛，我講他的動作愈來愈大。","quality":0.211},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:01.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:11.200000+08:00","text":"如果要簽一些安全協定或透過控制他的基礎建設，包括港口、機場，那個問題是很嚴重，像吉里巴斯就是一個例子，現在很多……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:11.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:12.200000+08:00","text":"這都很多，斑斑可考，我都理解啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:11.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:13.400000+08:00","text":"很多地緣政治上面，太平洋的國家現在也覺得……","quality":0.474},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:13.753846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:15.446154+08:00","text":"問題是巴紐政府被說服了沒？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:15.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:16.350000+08:00","text":"像你講的有外部的力量，有提醒……","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:16.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:18.400000+08:00","text":"沒有，他現在還是這樣子啊。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:18.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:19.400000+08:00","text":"還是這樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:19.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:21.400000+08:00","text":"我們才剛開始交涉中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:22.028571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:25.457143+08:00","text":"部長，既然你話都講出來了，大家其實會有期待。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:25.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:29.466667+08:00","text":"我講嘛，外交上可以操之在我、有條件時，有的時候要強硬以對，這部分本席是支持你啦！","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:29.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:32.400000+08:00","text":"我們現在先爭取時間可以做交涉……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:32.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:33.400000+08:00","text":"好，你要爭取時間……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:33.171429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:36.446154+08:00","text":"有空間之後，我們也希望這個事件有轉圜的餘地。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:36.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:54.400000+08:00","text":"我最後提醒你啦，就是你要有一段時間來操作，因為總是要試探一下，本席也都理解，這是外交的常理，但問題是不能到最後就是拖著、拖著，等到輿論風頭過了，就船過水無痕，這樣非常不好，表示你疑似要打這張牌，但沒有獲知任何的效果，也沒有辦法貫徹，我覺得在外交上就會留下負面的印象。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:54.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:55.400000+08:00","text":"是，我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:54.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:56.400000+08:00","text":"因為吃定你軟弱嘛，對不對？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:56.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:57.400000+08:00","text":"不能這樣子，好不好？好。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:57.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:05.488889+08:00","text":"我提醒一下部長，不管你最後的結果，你換到具體成果，要跟國人大眾清楚說明，要不然這張牌就白打，不要只聞樓梯響、不見人下來，好不好？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"林部長佳龍","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:05.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:06.266667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:06.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:07.433333+08:00","text":"辛苦部長，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:07.933333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:09.361905+08:00","text":"謝謝牛委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:09.661905+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:13.376190+08:00","text":"接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":363,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時2分）謝謝主席。有請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，午安。最近中國大陸在南海可以說是動作頻頻，方法不管怎麼樣來使用，動作越來越大是一個事實。比如最近不管是仁愛礁中間的衝突，或者是開始談到所謂巴丹群島自古屬於中國這樣的一個新的敘事跑出來等，其實都彰顯著他們的野心勃勃。關鍵問題是我們在因應這樣狀況的時候，大家都關心中華民國政府態度是什麼？做了哪些事情？所以今天找幾個問題就教部長。","部長在報告第4頁有提到，我們駐菲代表處人員非常積極出席非常多場的南海論壇，我們因應這些局勢姑且講升溫或者對手動作增加，我們在論壇裡面都談了一些什麼樣的重點？他談話的內容是什麼？參與是一定參與的，但問題是你在參與的時候，做了哪一些的主張？是不是請部長說明一下？"],["林部長佳龍：來，我請亞太司副司長來說明一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以，請。"],["林部長佳龍：我們頻繁地與臺菲有一些交流合作，包括辦論壇，所以這個方式其實也可以邀請更多國家來參加，透過菲律賓做一個平臺。"],["牛委員煦庭：司長來補充，沒關係。"],["劉副司長昆豪：報告委員，我們駐處的同仁在參加很多場南海相關議題論壇的時候，其實主要都是在重申我們政府的既定立場，就是我們跟南海其他聲索國多半都遵守國際法、聯合國海洋法公約，以及秉持互相尊重的立場，透過對話跟國際會議等機制，透過和平方式處理問題……"],["牛委員煦庭：四點原則嘛，對不對？"],["劉副司長昆豪：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你參加了很多的論壇，數量非常多，但講的東西其實都一樣，而且是以前到現在都一樣，是這個意思嗎？"],["劉副司長昆豪：應該是說，只要參加這樣的議題，我們駐館人員都會重申政府的立場。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK！重申政府的立場。部長，我之所以問這個問題就是，這本來就是博弈外交，對不對？我往前進一步，測試大家的反應。現在看起來，我們的反應好像是停在原地不動，這是我國的方針嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為中共現在把臺海、東海及南海都全面在發動，也就是擴張，我們大家去找朋友，因為不然的話，我們老是變成臺海兩岸的問題，所以區域有關於大家共同關切的這一些島礁領海或相關的議題，其實臺灣就是利害關係人，我們希望積極的參與，不要被排除在外。"],["牛委員煦庭：你今天講積極參與這些東西，當然大家都同意的，但我的意思是，在局勢改變的時候，你的立場如果都沒有變，可能大家就不當一回事，反正習慣成自然。我要再追問……"],["林部長佳龍：我們去找出交集來促進共同的利益，有一些爭議我們可以擱置一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然。但我的意思是，當你這樣長期的一個主張的時候，大家都這樣說，但好像說一說，好像也沒有什麼實際作為。請問這樣長期的倡議，即便我們的立場是非常保守而且不變，這樣的情況之下，哪一些現實改變了？"],["林部長佳龍：有啊！比如我們共同有一些可以維持區域和平穩定，大家都要資訊分享啦！包括像比如這種涉及可能與海巡的交流，所有這些其實都是在找出跟我們理念相近國家的交集，有些東西只能做、不能夠說。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，從國際關係視角來看，結論就是中國大陸步步進逼，這些東西要維持同樣的聲明，或者是類似的立場，但顯然好像沒有辦法改變什麼事實，有這樣可能性。當然我們不是沒有扭轉的機會，因為菲律賓的小馬可仕，他們今年要擔任東協峰會的主席國，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們也明確地做了一個宣示，你看人家的宣示就是不一樣，我不一樣身分的時候，我可能有不一樣的角色、不一樣的宣示，比如他要輪值東協峰會的主席國，他就會講，我要在談判南海行為準則（COC）上面，我必須要推進它往前嘛！我們每一次也都講，我們希望不要被排除在外，希望可以真的落實一點什麼樣的事情。","你剛剛提到我們維持四點原則立場是不變的，對外態度看起來是比較保守，請問你能不能把握菲律賓輪值主席國這一次在COC的談判上取得具體的進展？我指的具體進展比如你真實參與了一個談判，或者是有中華民國一些共同的付出或努力，你聯合了所謂民主大聯盟的盟邦等等，再具體推動南海行為準則一些更具體的進展。外交部有沒有設立相關的一些KPI，我們可以期待這樣的事嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們並不是所謂東協成員，跟中國在處理南海行為準則時沒有被邀請，但是我們也透過學者、專家各種方式去參與包括一些論壇等等。我們是有一些是雙邊關係也可以去鏈結，因為事實上你剛剛講的COC……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！你可以用各式各樣的方式像第二軌、雙邊、個別都可以的，方法你可以多元嘛！但具體來講，你有沒有什麼具體目標？"],["林部長佳龍：具體目標就是我們的四點原則，我們的立場能夠宣誓以外，希望擱置爭議、共同開發。我們從自己做起，當然我們跟各方都可能有一些共同利益，也可能有衝突，怎麼樣去處理，這就是當然除了外交之外，也會涉及到各個單位，這也都有在進行。"],["牛委員煦庭：關鍵是你怎麼樣說服其他的國家，就友我國家，對吧！共同透過什麼樣的行動及方式，把你的四點原則……"],["林部長佳龍：不過要簽訂南海行為準則，因為它異質性及衝突很複雜……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，這是核心。"],["林部長佳龍：所以這個是目標，但是尤其現在菲中關係這麼緊張，真的是不容樂觀。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你覺得不樂觀。"],["林部長佳龍：但是我們也密切關心啦！我們希望能夠積極來參與。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你講了很多，但大體上，你還是講說我希望可以維持這四點原則的立場，但對於這件事情是否推進，你是悲觀的態度，是這個意思嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是啦！菲律賓今年是東協的主席國……"],["牛委員煦庭：他有擔任主席國的機會吧！"],["林部長佳龍：當然他會努力想要去推嘛！我們也……"],["牛委員煦庭：有中菲的摩擦在背後，當然你某一些層面，因為你有其他國家的聲明啊！其實大體上都跟我們四點原則很像，但他能不能具體改變現實現狀，推動這COC呢？你是悲觀的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不容樂觀啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：不容樂觀。"],["林部長佳龍：當然我們是密切關心。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你講實話，我心態都很開放，因為這本來就是大家就事論事啦！我最後做一點提醒有關於這個題目，這報告內容也有提到，你們在宣傳的部分，因為今天很多委員都講媒宣費用很重要等等，你說我們曝光了113萬次，安排58場國際媒體專訪。我就很好奇了，你說20篇的社群貼文及113萬次的曝光，58次的專訪都是談南海的題目嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：他們基本上只要來自於東協或是印太國家都會關心南海問題，其實南海的不確定性跟可能會擦槍走火的機會要密切注意。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你會後提供資料給我。我很好奇，比如大家談臺海，它也都可能會擦邊，有可能專門談南海、可能談東南亞、可能談東協等等，有的談經濟、有的談政治，對不對？你講了很空泛，一百多萬次的曝光好像非常有效果，但本席是很關注，到底花了多少的力道跟集中度，在討論南海相關的議題？所以這個還是要麻煩一下外交部的同仁，你稍微整理一下，針對你們媒體曝光的詳細細目做個簡單的報告，會後提供給我。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，包括G7及現在IP4，他們都會提到臺海、東海跟南海，甚至把它並列。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你就整理出來就好，因為我覺得這些東西……"],["林部長佳龍：好。我在受訪的時候，也是很強調這都互相關聯。"],["牛委員煦庭：還有包含你受訪的內容嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：屬不屬於這個範圍之內，這要好好檢視一下。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後本席建議一下，因為馬總統的時代及陳水扁總統的時代，其實都有登島宣示主權等相關一些比較大的動作。這某些層面，我剛一開始問你，我說我們現在對這件事情總體態度來講，你還是四點原則都不變，你的說法都不變。具體來講說，你能不能在峰會裡把握機會推動，你也講你必須保守看待，這我都理解，但有些事情是我們可以做的。"],["林部長佳龍：我們海委會因為是主管機關，我們管碧玲主委也到了太平島，這些都是行為的表示。"],["牛委員煦庭：要思考一下這件事情，因為我是覺得這件事情完全可以做得到，操之在己嘛！它有一定的政治宣誓的意味，你這樣才有角色，如果對方是步步進逼，我們是沉默以對，或者是保守以對的時候，難免被人家操作成習慣成自然、船過水無痕，那就危險了。所以你如果走多邊的狀況或是雙邊的時候，就會遇到一些障礙，以致於沒辦法推進的時候，我們可以操作一些操之在我的啦！這樣子才能夠安定……"],["林部長佳龍：委員所言非常對，我們就是希望操之在己，就自己不斷地去落實。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你會建議一下我們賴總統也登島宣示一下主權嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有些東西我也沒辦法在這裡說，但是以前有這個例子，對不對？我們現在海委會主委也已經都有去，至於其他因為這涉及到很複雜的地緣政治上的連鎖反應，我們是說這曾經有，就是代表我們可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然。"],["林部長佳龍：但是什麼樣的方式適合？這個都要盱衡大局來作整體評估。"],["牛委員煦庭：思考一下啦！外交部的處境一向都很艱難，本席完全都理解，但是處境艱難的時候，你可以做一些什麼來安定國內，我覺得這是很重要的，因為該我們講話的時候，這種聲音不能少。所以花一點點時間，我要請教一下，當馬文君委員、徐巧芯委員，我們都很關心巴紐這件事情，因為部長難得強硬，我有講嘛，我有引用你答詢的內容，我們的天然氣占巴紐輸出的三分之一，這是很大的數字，對吧？所以這其實是大家非常、非常關注的題目，但好像只聞樓梯響，你說我們不排除動用這樣子的外交籌碼，但後續呢？我們到底決定要用鐵腕，來鐵拳教育一下這些動不動就關閉我們代表處的這些國家了沒？"],["林部長佳龍：我會這樣講當然也是跟經濟部有會過意見，最主要是因為對方的外交部部長說我們沒有經貿關係往來，明明就有啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：就有啊，對啊！"],["林部長佳龍：你不能睜眼睛說瞎話啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：這件事情是不是也是操之在我？"],["林部長佳龍：當然，我們怎麼樣做……因為我們的外交不只是為了表態，而是要有效。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["林部長佳龍：所以我剛剛講說我們本來的能源政策，或是一些所謂的油氣採購，政府本來就不斷在……因為最近包括中東的戰事，包括我們跟美國要採購及投資天然氣……"],["牛委員煦庭：你是說巴紐在地的……"],["林部長佳龍：這些都必須放在整體上來評估……"],["牛委員煦庭：巴紐天然氣的總量會不會影響我國內經濟，你們自己評估，你總要評估嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：你看中東戰事發生之後，我們在現貨市場上的調度其實相當靈活。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！"],["林部長佳龍：針對一些長約我們也在檢討，比如我們跟卡達，因為我們現在有了經驗……"],["牛委員煦庭：那就是有狀況嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：我們會轉換……"],["牛委員煦庭：你回答問題就好，到底……"],["林部長佳龍：因為從太平洋另外一邊過來的油氣，大概比較不會涉及戰爭的危險。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們足不足以操作？你回答我，我們現在足不足以打天然氣這張牌？我們能不能夠打這張牌？我們有沒有這個條件？"],["林部長佳龍：外交是基於互惠平等嘛！如果對方不對我們平等對待，對不對？又傷害我們的利益……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然必須要做檢討及必要的因應，這個部分我向委員報告，我們跟經濟部都有良好的討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以經濟部現在回饋的意見是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：但是有一些行為，比如在現貨市場上，我們有一些就可以不買啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！"],["林部長佳龍：但是，是不是……因為我不是……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我剛剛問這個問題，就是問你現在的動作是什麼嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：我們不是為了不買，我們是為了希望讓對方了解我們的關係是有經貿的往來。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你要先嚇嚇他，對吧？簡單來說，就是這樣，是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是這樣講啦！是告訴他說：你講的不是事實。我們確實……"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是說對方回應了沒？你現在說不排除動用天然氣，我姑且講你先嚇嚇他，對吧？"],["林部長佳龍：經貿方面，其實大家都是互惠嘛，不要說因為他們把它政治化，當然我們要提醒……"],["牛委員煦庭：巴紐善意回應了沒？他了解這個事情的嚴重性嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為你看，我們跟他買天然氣，他卻把我們矮化，甚至否定的時候……"],["牛委員煦庭：就是過分嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：我們怎麼知道……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：這個也涉及能源安全啊！我也不能夠把雞蛋都放在同樣一個籃子裡面？"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊，所以你現在祭出這樣一個手段之後，他們軟化了沒？我們要問的是成果。"],["林部長佳龍：需要時間來消化。"],["牛委員煦庭：你還需要多久的時間？這部分我們要關注。"],["林部長佳龍：我們持續交涉中，然後也跟我們的友盟溝通，他們也表示聲援臺灣的立場，而且認為是中共的經濟脅迫，對臺灣、對我們的全球夥伴進行這種打壓，這個是不符合這些……"],["牛委員煦庭：你講的這些大道理，大家都知道啦！但問題是我們都是看很實際的東西嘛，所以你一定要繼續……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，表面上是巴紐跟臺灣的關係，背後是更複雜的地緣政治。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你剛剛……"],["林部長佳龍：所以我們也是利害關係人。"],["牛委員煦庭：你都提了，我跟你講說，有事涉……"],["林部長佳龍：我必須要去……"],["牛委員煦庭：你剛才回答馬文君委員的質詢時，有講事涉其他國家的態度，哪些國家？他們在裡面有角色，是因為他背後有角色，還是說代表……"],["林部長佳龍：我不能替他們講，但是他們陸續都有表示意見，而且這個就是大家共同的利害關係，已經不是臺灣跟巴紐之間而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這些其他國家是阻止我們打這張牌，還是鼓勵我們打這張牌？"],["林部長佳龍：應該說，他們都樂見臺灣留在巴紐。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以他鼓勵你這樣處理嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：所以大家一起來努力嘛，我們也希望太平洋不要被中國擴張……"],["牛委員煦庭：人家就是蠶食鯨吞嘛，我講他的動作愈來愈大。"],["林部長佳龍：如果要簽一些安全協定或透過控制他的基礎建設，包括港口、機場，那個問題是很嚴重，像吉里巴斯就是一個例子，現在很多……"],["牛委員煦庭：這都很多，斑斑可考，我都理解啊！"],["林部長佳龍：很多地緣政治上面，太平洋的國家現在也覺得……"],["牛委員煦庭：問題是巴紐政府被說服了沒？像你講的有外部的力量，有提醒……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，他現在還是這樣子啊。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是這樣子？"],["林部長佳龍：我們才剛開始交涉中。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，既然你話都講出來了，大家其實會有期待。我講嘛，外交上可以操之在我、有條件時，有的時候要強硬以對，這部分本席是支持你啦！"],["林部長佳龍：我們現在先爭取時間可以做交涉……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你要爭取時間……"],["林部長佳龍：有空間之後，我們也希望這個事件有轉圜的餘地。"],["牛委員煦庭：我最後提醒你啦，就是你要有一段時間來操作，因為總是要試探一下，本席也都理解，這是外交的常理，但問題是不能到最後就是拖著、拖著，等到輿論風頭過了，就船過水無痕，這樣非常不好，表示你疑似要打這張牌，但沒有獲知任何的效果，也沒有辦法貫徹，我覺得在外交上就會留下負面的印象。"],["林部長佳龍：是，我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為吃定你軟弱嘛，對不對？不能這樣子，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我提醒一下部長，不管你最後的結果，你換到具體成果，要跟國人大眾清楚說明，要不然這張牌就白打，不要只聞樓梯響、不見人下來，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-28","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","王義川","林楚茵","黃建賓","王安祥","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","許忠信","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","黃仁","沈伯洋"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2026-07-22"],"gazette_id":"1156601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「我國近年針對南海主權與法律地位之國際宣傳實績成效暨如何應對\n周邊國家擴大主權國際宣傳之具體反制策略」，併請海洋委員會、大陸委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156601_00015"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}