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決定技術出口"},{"start":531,"end":534,"text":"如果目前的修法方向並沒有強制保留原始的檢體"},{"start":534,"end":536,"text":"檢驗的數據"},{"start":536,"end":538,"text":"修改軌跡跟會議記錄"},{"start":538,"end":540,"text":"那法務部要怎麼樣來去做"},{"start":540,"end":542,"text":"跟我們報告檢察官偵辦犯罪"},{"start":542,"end":545,"text":"尤其現在這種科技是利用科技而犯罪的"},{"start":545,"end":546,"text":"反走過必留痕跡"},{"start":546,"end":547,"text":"所以他利用科技去犯罪"},{"start":547,"end":550,"text":"檢察官他一定可以循著這個留下"},{"start":550,"end":552,"text":"也就是說他就算是"},{"start":552,"end":555,"text":"沒有他就算沒有保留原始的檢體"},{"start":555,"end":557,"text":"沒有沒有就是修改的軌跡跟會議記錄"},{"start":557,"end":559,"text":"你們也都可以查得出來是這樣嗎"},{"start":559,"end":562,"text":"當然證據保留越多"},{"start":562,"end":564,"text":"當然對檢察官的偵辦法就是越有利"},{"start":564,"end":566,"text":"如果他完全沒有保持原始的資料的話"},{"start":566,"end":568,"text":"那基本上你們就算是"},{"start":568,"end":570,"text":"科技現在科技非常發達"},{"start":570,"end":572,"text":"他都沒有原始的資料你要怎麼查"},{"start":572,"end":574,"text":"這就假如來講如果透過行政管制的方面"},{"start":574,"end":578,"text":"可以讓業者都留下這些記錄資料"},{"start":578,"end":580,"text":"所以我剛剛講的就是這樣"},{"start":580,"end":582,"text":"只要業者存心隱匿他銷毀原始的資料"},{"start":582,"end":584,"text":"我們根本無從查起"},{"start":584,"end":586,"text":"你就沒有東西你要怎麼查"},{"start":586,"end":588,"text":"所以說針對"},{"start":588,"end":591,"text":"中視院板的這個就要確定"},{"start":591,"end":593,"text":"那請問法務部知不知道"},{"start":593,"end":596,"text":"就是是不是有強制保存原始資料"},{"start":596,"end":598,"text":"這樣子的一個修法"},{"start":598,"end":600,"text":"這部分我們本部當然就有參加"},{"start":600,"end":602,"text":"其中相關的法制的意見"},{"start":602,"end":606,"text":"那就這一個是不是要保留相關的資料的部分"},{"start":606,"end":608,"text":"當然我們要尊重主管機關"},{"start":608,"end":610,"text":"所以沒有就對了"},{"start":610,"end":614,"text":"所以就你得知是沒有強制保存原始的資料"},{"start":614,"end":616,"text":"這部分我沒有參與那個會議"},{"start":616,"end":618,"text":"那可能這部分我覺得"},{"start":618,"end":621,"text":"也是要請這個法務部這邊"},{"start":621,"end":623,"text":"因為當然主管機關是衛福部"},{"start":623,"end":626,"text":"可是事實上當重大的這個食安修法"},{"start":626,"end":628,"text":"發生問題之後"},{"start":628,"end":631,"text":"這個還是檢調單位要來去真正找出真相嗎"},{"start":631,"end":633,"text":"好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:12:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:07.833333+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們請法務部黃政次。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:12.250000+08:00","text":"請黃次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:12.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:13.250000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:13.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:14.250000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:13.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:21.625000+08:00","text":"次長，您知不知道今年1到5月份的毒駕案件有幾件？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:22.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:31.666667+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我現在手上的數字是從預防性羈押修法到現在這兩個月，整個毒駕的統計，我們檢察官處理的是4,272件。","quality":0.638},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:32.615385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:35.692308+08:00","text":"相比去年同期增加多少？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:36.615385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:39.846154+08:00","text":"它是增加了，但是增加的比率我現在我手上沒有相關數字。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:55.764706+08:00","text":"我現在手邊上有的資料是警政署公布的，毒駕1到5月份是6,730件，比去年同期的2,399件暴增了大概將近三倍，所以毒駕很嚴重，我相信次長也非常清楚。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:13:56.461538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:13:59.846154+08:00","text":"不管是部長、次長，法務部也都一直強調毒駕零容忍嘛！對。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:17.807692+08:00","text":"所以針對這次行政院版的修法，我們看到的是，雖然提高了毒駕的刑度，但是毒駕致死最低的刑度只有五年，最高也不過十二年，再犯致死也只是七年以上有期徒刑或是無期徒刑。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:32.812500+08:00","text":"但是面對毒駕案件的快速增長，政府如果沒有拿出魄力，真正嚇阻毒駕再犯者，就有可能會讓這些受害者甚至是受害者家庭承受一輩子的痛苦。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:14:33.476190+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:14:59.800000+08:00","text":"我們認為毒駕跟酒駕不一樣，喝酒本身並沒有犯罪，是酒駕才犯罪，但吸毒本身就已經犯罪了，吸毒又再上路，根本就是故意犯罪，所以我們認為如果只是調高刑度從五年到十二年，針對再犯也不過是無期徒刑的話，事實上沒有辦法產生什麼嚇阻作用啦！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:00.952381+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:07.812500+08:00","text":"次長，法務部認為，以現在所要提高的刑度來看，就有辦法對這些毒駕或是再犯者產生嚇阻作用嗎？","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:09.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:18.789474+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，除了提高刑度之外，我們還可以從沒收他的交通工具以及不得假釋等多重管道著手。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:19.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:21.833333+08:00","text":"委員提到的是最高刑度無期徒刑是不是……","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:25.714286+08:00","text":"對，為什麼最高刑度不能判處死刑呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:36.384615+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果毒駕者的主觀意識是知道毒駕之後會撞死人，無論直接或間接故意，還這麼做的話就是殺人罪，殺人罪最高就可以判處死刑。","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:37.473684+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:15:50.764706+08:00","text":"既然是殺人罪，故意殺人致死的話就是殺人罪，為什麼在刑法第一百八十五條的修正當中不能將最高刑度比照殺人致死呢？","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:15:51.461538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:02.818182+08:00","text":"委員，這是規範不同的行為態樣，我們這次處理的是毒駕致死，致死是導致死亡，毒駕的部分是故意犯沒有錯，但致死的部分是過失犯，所以兩個行為……","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:08.500000+08:00","text":"為什麼致死……他毒駕上路其實就是故意的啊！","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:10.428571+08:00","text":"對，但是他故意……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:10.428571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:11.428571+08:00","text":"為什麼不算故意致死呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:10.714286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:17.791667+08:00","text":"他故意的是，毒駕是故意的，但是致死，個案上他不一定知道他開車是故意要去撞死人。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:25.750000+08:00","text":"請問一下，我們如果在刑度上增加，讓法官有多一個裁量的刑度，這樣有什麼問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:32.818182+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們規定多少刑度涉及每個罪的罪責，涉及每個罪的比例原則……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:32.818182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:33.818182+08:00","text":"你說不符合比例原則嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:35.357143+08:00","text":"還涉及整個法中各個罪的衡平。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:53.809524+08:00","text":"那針對這個……我想你也聽到民間一般的聲音，大家都認為現在毒駕這麼嚴重，前兩天臺中發生的毒駕事故又造成一人死亡，而且是在警局前面，你說這樣的行為不是故意嗎？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:55.833333+08:00","text":"那要怎麼樣舉證他是故意呢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:16:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:16:59.789474+08:00","text":"如果他故意要用這個手段去殺人，他就是故意啊，他就是殺人罪！","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:02.823529+08:00","text":"對啊，可是問題是現在的刑度並沒有……故意如果致死的話是沒有。","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:03.666667+08:00","text":"不是、不是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:03.888889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:09.777778+08:00","text":"我剛才講到，如果他就是要用毒駕的方式去殺人的話，這當然就不用另外規定，我們刑法……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:16.812500+08:00","text":"我的意思就是說，現在的狀況為什麼不能在……你剛剛一直強調我們現在的刑法裡面就有故意致人於死可以處死刑……","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:18.714286+08:00","text":"對，故意殺人就可以求處死刑。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:19.888889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:39.812500+08:00","text":"關於這樣的刑度，比如刑法第一百八十五條針對毒駕的部分，如果再加上這樣的刑度，你剛剛說不符合比例原則，可能有一些什麼刑度等問題，可是事實上你看刑法第二百八十六條的虐兒致死，是不是最高可以判處死刑？","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:41.052632+08:00","text":"對，當時在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:42.368421+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:46.777778+08:00","text":"刑法第三百二十八條第三項強盜致死是不是可以判處死刑？","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:50.454545+08:00","text":"對，跟委員報告，加重結果犯最重……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:50.454545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:51.454545+08:00","text":"對啊，這兩個都可以判處死刑！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:50.818182+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:17:56.500000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，加重結果犯最重到死刑的部分，我們的第三百二十八條做了一個非常例外的處理，上個會期對第二百八十六條也做了特別處理。","quality":0.397},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:17:57.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:18:00.800000+08:00","text":"對啊，為什麼毒駕致死不能有一個例外的情形？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:18:01.421053+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:18:13.666667+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，就刑法的理論應該是這樣，但是第三百二十八條及第二百八十六條這兩條最重到死刑，那是大院後來的決定，部裡面當然就尊重大院的決定，本法也一樣，刑法的理論……一樣？","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:18:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:18:23.750000+08:00","text":"也就是說，如果我們增加毒駕致死最高刑度是死刑的話，法務部也會尊重我們立法院的決定？","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:18:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:18:25.913043+08:00","text":"當然，因為大院已經通過這樣的法律了，我們當然只有尊重。好。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:18:26.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:18:48.888889+08:00","text":"另外再請教一下，有關這次中聯毒油事件，卓榮泰院長也坦承中聯油脂相關業者疑似召開蓋牌會議，行政機關當時無從得知，就算是問業者，業者當然不會據實回報，所以他們才會隱匿嘛！","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:18:49.869565+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:19:07.730769+08:00","text":"這次政院所提出的修法方向，仍集中在提高檢驗頻率、擴大通報、強化追溯跟建立下架的程序，但是這些制度都是必須在先取得異常資訊之後才能啟動。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:19:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:19:17.454545+08:00","text":"也就是說，業者如果隱匿的話，政府根本就不知道，檢調也只能在問題產品流入市場、證據可能滅失後才介入。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:19:18.714286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:19:22.821429+08:00","text":"這樣是不是增加我們檢調辦案的困難呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:19:23.153846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:19:24.230769+08:00","text":"法務部要怎麼處理呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:19:25.307692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:19:35.375000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，食品安全衛生法的主管機關是衛福部，修法是從行政管制或相關的預防面修法，這個跟我們法務部的職掌沒有關係啦，這個部分我們要尊重……","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:19:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:19:51.818182+08:00","text":"我現在指的是說，當你們檢調要介入做調查的時候，因為剛剛我講的這些可能被隱匿、業者不通報的狀況……我們可以看一下，這個禮拜四院會大概會提出食安法的修法，也公布了十大修法重點。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:19:53.476190+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:19:58.875000+08:00","text":"請問究竟有哪一項能夠在業者不通報的狀況之下，檢調可以主動發現？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:19:59.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:20:19.800000+08:00","text":"修法重點是增訂高風險食品業者自主檢驗頻率、增訂通報機制、增訂相關通報責任，請問在業者不通報的狀況之下，檢調怎麼能夠發現呢？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:20:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:20:29.833333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們檢察官偵辦一定是因為告訴、告發或其他情事，知有犯罪嫌疑者就開始啟動偵辦，所以不是只有通報這件事情，像相關的吹哨者法案、相關內部人的檢舉……","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:20:30.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:20:33.818182+08:00","text":"以這件中聯油脂案，你們是怎麼樣開始介入調查的呢？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:20:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:20:36.200000+08:00","text":"本案開始調查當然是因為……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:20:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:20:41.600000+08:00","text":"對啊，就是因為南僑主動提出來嘛！對。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:20:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:20:54.846154+08:00","text":"要不然的話，事實上，中聯在6月15號的會議決定蓋牌，如果不是南僑有良心的提出、通報這個毒油事件的話，我們可能現在還每天在吃毒油。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:20:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:21:02.750000+08:00","text":"所以針對這個事件，以目前看到的修法方向，檢調好像也沒有辦法得知，除非業者主動通報。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:21:03.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:21:08.833333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們檢察官介入偵辦的前提就是要有犯罪嫌疑才偵辦，如果相關的行政處理流程沒有……","quality":0.683},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:21:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:21:13.833333+08:00","text":"所以檢調單位也沒辦法，只要沒有人提出來，也沒辦法，不能主動追查？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:21:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:21:17.586207+08:00","text":"我們主動追查的前提是因為告訴、告發、自首或其他情事知有犯罪嫌疑者。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:21:18.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:21:21.857143+08:00","text":"等於只要業者隱匿，就沒有辦法得到這樣的狀況了。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:21:22.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:21:26.900000+08:00","text":"再請教您最後一點，這個可能跟你們辦案有關。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:21:27.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:21:47.555556+08:00","text":"如果業者刪除內部郵件、覆寫異常數據、銷毀留樣或是重新採樣後反覆複查，以掩蓋第一次的異常，請問一下，檢察官針對這樣的狀況，如何證明是誰先知道、誰下令隱匿、誰決定繼續出貨？","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:21:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:21:56.272727+08:00","text":"如果目前的修法方向並沒有強制保留原始檢體、檢驗數據、修改軌跡跟會議紀錄，法務部要怎麼樣偵辦？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:21:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:22:06.785714+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，檢察官偵辦犯罪，尤其現在這種利用科技犯罪的，凡走過必留痕跡，他利用科技犯罪，檢察官一定可以循著留下來的蛛絲馬跡……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:22:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:22:15.857143+08:00","text":"也就是說，就算沒有保留原始的檢體，修改軌跡跟會議紀錄，你們也都可以查得出來，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:22:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:22:20.866667+08:00","text":"當然，證據保留越多，對檢察官的偵辦就越有利。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:22:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:22:28.857143+08:00","text":"對啊，如果完全沒有保持原始資料的話，基本上就算現在科技非常發達，如果沒有原始的資料，你要怎麼查？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:22:29.117647+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:22:34.714286+08:00","text":"就檢察官來講，如果透過行政管制方面，可以讓業者多留下一些紀錄、資料，當然是最好的。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:22:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:22:40.750000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛講的就是這樣啊，只要業者存心隱匿，銷毀了原始的資料，我們根本無從查起啊！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:22:41.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:22:43.400000+08:00","text":"就沒有東西，你要怎麼查？所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:22:43.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:22:46.909091+08:00","text":"任何犯罪都會有委員講的這種狀況。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:22:46.909091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:22:54.750000+08:00","text":"周四院版就要確定了，請問法務部知不知道，是不是有強制保存原始資料的修法？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:22:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:23:04.818182+08:00","text":"這個部分本部當然有參加及提供相關的法制意見，至於是不是要保留相關資料的部分，當然我們要尊重主管機關……","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:23:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:23:06.714286+08:00","text":"所以沒有就對了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:23:06.714286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:23:07.714286+08:00","text":"衛福部才是主管機關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:23:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:23:11+08:00","text":"所以就您得知，沒有強制保存原始的資料，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"黃次長謀信","start":"2026-07-22T11:23:11.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:23:12.833333+08:00","text":"我沒有參與那個會議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-22T11:23:13.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-22T11:23:29.333333+08:00","text":"這個部分，我覺得也要請法務部……當然，主管機關是衛福部，可是事實上，發生重大的食安問題之後，還是檢調單位要真正找出真相嘛！謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T11:23:29.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:23:31.261905+08:00","text":"謝謝許委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-22T11:23:31.561905+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-22T11:23:34.704762+08:00","text":"接下來請李坤城委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1106,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時13分）謝謝主席，我們請法務部黃政次。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：次長好。次長，您知不知道今年1到5月份的毒駕案件有幾件？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我現在手上的數字是從預防性羈押修法到現在這兩個月，整個毒駕的統計，我們檢察官處理的是4,272件。"],["許委員宇甄：相比去年同期增加多少？"],["黃次長謀信：它是增加了，但是增加的比率我現在我手上沒有相關數字。"],["許委員宇甄：我現在手邊上有的資料是警政署公布的，毒駕1到5月份是6,730件，比去年同期的2,399件暴增了大概將近三倍，所以毒駕很嚴重，我相信次長也非常清楚。不管是部長、次長，法務部也都一直強調毒駕零容忍嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["許委員宇甄：所以針對這次行政院版的修法，我們看到的是，雖然提高了毒駕的刑度，但是毒駕致死最低的刑度只有五年，最高也不過十二年，再犯致死也只是七年以上有期徒刑或是無期徒刑。但是面對毒駕案件的快速增長，政府如果沒有拿出魄力，真正嚇阻毒駕再犯者，就有可能會讓這些受害者甚至是受害者家庭承受一輩子的痛苦。","我們認為毒駕跟酒駕不一樣，喝酒本身並沒有犯罪，是酒駕才犯罪，但吸毒本身就已經犯罪了，吸毒又再上路，根本就是故意犯罪，所以我們認為如果只是調高刑度從五年到十二年，針對再犯也不過是無期徒刑的話，事實上沒有辦法產生什麼嚇阻作用啦！次長，法務部認為，以現在所要提高的刑度來看，就有辦法對這些毒駕或是再犯者產生嚇阻作用嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，除了提高刑度之外，我們還可以從沒收他的交通工具以及不得假釋等多重管道著手。委員提到的是最高刑度無期徒刑是不是……"],["許委員宇甄：對，為什麼最高刑度不能判處死刑呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果毒駕者的主觀意識是知道毒駕之後會撞死人，無論直接或間接故意，還這麼做的話就是殺人罪，殺人罪最高就可以判處死刑。"],["許委員宇甄：既然是殺人罪，故意殺人致死的話就是殺人罪，為什麼在刑法第一百八十五條的修正當中不能將最高刑度比照殺人致死呢？"],["黃次長謀信：委員，這是規範不同的行為態樣，我們這次處理的是毒駕致死，致死是導致死亡，毒駕的部分是故意犯沒有錯，但致死的部分是過失犯，所以兩個行為……"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼致死……他毒駕上路其實就是故意的啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對，但是他故意……"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼不算故意致死呢？"],["黃次長謀信：他故意的是，毒駕是故意的，但是致死，個案上他不一定知道他開車是故意要去撞死人。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，我們如果在刑度上增加，讓法官有多一個裁量的刑度，這樣有什麼問題嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我們規定多少刑度涉及每個罪的罪責，涉及每個罪的比例原則……"],["許委員宇甄：你說不符合比例原則嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：還涉及整個法中各個罪的衡平。"],["許委員宇甄：那針對這個……我想你也聽到民間一般的聲音，大家都認為現在毒駕這麼嚴重，前兩天臺中發生的毒駕事故又造成一人死亡，而且是在警局前面，你說這樣的行為不是故意嗎？那要怎麼樣舉證他是故意呢？"],["黃次長謀信：如果他故意要用這個手段去殺人，他就是故意啊，他就是殺人罪！"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，可是問題是現在的刑度並沒有……故意如果致死的話是沒有。"],["黃次長謀信：不是、不是！我剛才講到，如果他就是要用毒駕的方式去殺人的話，這當然就不用另外規定，我們刑法……"],["許委員宇甄：我的意思就是說，現在的狀況為什麼不能在……你剛剛一直強調我們現在的刑法裡面就有故意致人於死可以處死刑……"],["黃次長謀信：對，故意殺人就可以求處死刑。"],["許委員宇甄：關於這樣的刑度，比如刑法第一百八十五條針對毒駕的部分，如果再加上這樣的刑度，你剛剛說不符合比例原則，可能有一些什麼刑度等問題，可是事實上你看刑法第二百八十六條的虐兒致死，是不是最高可以判處死刑？"],["黃次長謀信：對，當時在……"],["許委員宇甄：刑法第三百二十八條第三項強盜致死是不是可以判處死刑？"],["黃次長謀信：對，跟委員報告，加重結果犯最重……"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，這兩個都可以判處死刑！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，加重結果犯最重到死刑的部分，我們的第三百二十八條做了一個非常例外的處理，上個會期對第二百八十六條也做了特別處理。"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，為什麼毒駕致死不能有一個例外的情形？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，就刑法的理論應該是這樣，但是第三百二十八條及第二百八十六條這兩條最重到死刑，那是大院後來的決定，部裡面當然就尊重大院的決定，本法也一樣，刑法的理論……"],["許委員宇甄：一樣？也就是說，如果我們增加毒駕致死最高刑度是死刑的話，法務部也會尊重我們立法院的決定？"],["黃次長謀信：當然，因為大院已經通過這樣的法律了，我們當然只有尊重。"],["許委員宇甄：好。","另外再請教一下，有關這次中聯毒油事件，卓榮泰院長也坦承中聯油脂相關業者疑似召開蓋牌會議，行政機關當時無從得知，就算是問業者，業者當然不會據實回報，所以他們才會隱匿嘛！這次政院所提出的修法方向，仍集中在提高檢驗頻率、擴大通報、強化追溯跟建立下架的程序，但是這些制度都是必須在先取得異常資訊之後才能啟動。也就是說，業者如果隱匿的話，政府根本就不知道，檢調也只能在問題產品流入市場、證據可能滅失後才介入。這樣是不是增加我們檢調辦案的困難呢？法務部要怎麼處理呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，食品安全衛生法的主管機關是衛福部，修法是從行政管制或相關的預防面修法，這個跟我們法務部的職掌沒有關係啦，這個部分我們要尊重……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在指的是說，當你們檢調要介入做調查的時候，因為剛剛我講的這些可能被隱匿、業者不通報的狀況……我們可以看一下，這個禮拜四院會大概會提出食安法的修法，也公布了十大修法重點。請問究竟有哪一項能夠在業者不通報的狀況之下，檢調可以主動發現？修法重點是增訂高風險食品業者自主檢驗頻率、增訂通報機制、增訂相關通報責任，請問在業者不通報的狀況之下，檢調怎麼能夠發現呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們檢察官偵辦一定是因為告訴、告發或其他情事，知有犯罪嫌疑者就開始啟動偵辦，所以不是只有通報這件事情，像相關的吹哨者法案、相關內部人的檢舉……"],["許委員宇甄：以這件中聯油脂案，你們是怎麼樣開始介入調查的呢？"],["黃次長謀信：本案開始調查當然是因為……"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，就是因為南僑主動提出來嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["許委員宇甄：要不然的話，事實上，中聯在6月15號的會議決定蓋牌，如果不是南僑有良心的提出、通報這個毒油事件的話，我們可能現在還每天在吃毒油。所以針對這個事件，以目前看到的修法方向，檢調好像也沒有辦法得知，除非業者主動通報。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們檢察官介入偵辦的前提就是要有犯罪嫌疑才偵辦，如果相關的行政處理流程沒有……"],["許委員宇甄：所以檢調單位也沒辦法，只要沒有人提出來，也沒辦法，不能主動追查？"],["黃次長謀信：我們主動追查的前提是因為告訴、告發、自首或其他情事知有犯罪嫌疑者。"],["許委員宇甄：等於只要業者隱匿，就沒有辦法得到這樣的狀況了。","再請教您最後一點，這個可能跟你們辦案有關。如果業者刪除內部郵件、覆寫異常數據、銷毀留樣或是重新採樣後反覆複查，以掩蓋第一次的異常，請問一下，檢察官針對這樣的狀況，如何證明是誰先知道、誰下令隱匿、誰決定繼續出貨？如果目前的修法方向並沒有強制保留原始檢體、檢驗數據、修改軌跡跟會議紀錄，法務部要怎麼樣偵辦？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢察官偵辦犯罪，尤其現在這種利用科技犯罪的，凡走過必留痕跡，他利用科技犯罪，檢察官一定可以循著留下來的蛛絲馬跡……"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說，就算沒有保留原始的檢體，修改軌跡跟會議紀錄，你們也都可以查得出來，是這樣嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：當然，證據保留越多，對檢察官的偵辦就越有利。"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，如果完全沒有保持原始資料的話，基本上就算現在科技非常發達，如果沒有原始的資料，你要怎麼查？"],["黃次長謀信：就檢察官來講，如果透過行政管制方面，可以讓業者多留下一些紀錄、資料，當然是最好的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我剛剛講的就是這樣啊，只要業者存心隱匿，銷毀了原始的資料，我們根本無從查起啊！就沒有東西，你要怎麼查？所以……"],["黃次長謀信：任何犯罪都會有委員講的這種狀況。"],["許委員宇甄：周四院版就要確定了，請問法務部知不知道，是不是有強制保存原始資料的修法？"],["黃次長謀信：這個部分本部當然有參加及提供相關的法制意見，至於是不是要保留相關資料的部分，當然我們要尊重主管機關……"],["許委員宇甄：所以沒有就對了？"],["黃次長謀信：衛福部才是主管機關。"],["許委員宇甄：所以就您得知，沒有強制保存原始的資料，是這樣嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我沒有參與那個會議。"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分，我覺得也要請法務部……當然，主管機關是衛福部，可是事實上，發生重大的食安問題之後，還是檢調單位要真正找出真相嘛！謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許委員。","接下來請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-26","speakers":["翁曉玲","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","張智倫","林倩綺","林沛祥","張雅琳","沈發惠","范雲","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","傅崐萁","柯志恩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-22"],"gazette_id":"1156502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院、司法院函請審議「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、\n(二)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖\n先翔等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三及第一百八十五條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(五)委員徐\n欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三及第一百八十五條之四條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三及第一百八十五條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(七)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、\n(八)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(九)委員邱\n若華等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(十)委員萬美玲等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三及第一百八十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員\n陳亭妃等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃秀芳等\n20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員林思銘等21人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第\n一百八十五條之三及第一百八十五條之五條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「中\n華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員張智倫等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百\n八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條\n之三、第一百八十五條之四及第一百八十五條之五條文修正草案」案、(二十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中\n華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(二十二)委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(二十三)委員王義川等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第\n一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(二十四)委員賴士葆等25人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八\n十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(二十五)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條\n之三及第一百八十五條之五條文修正草案」案、(二十六)委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「中華民國刑法\n第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(二十七)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百\n八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(二十八)委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五\n條之三條文修正草案」案、(二十九)委員王育敏等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三\n條文修正草案」案、(三十)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正\n草案」案、(三十一)委員王美惠等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」\n案、( 三十二) 委員陳素月等17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、\n(三十三)委員林淑芬等26人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(三十\n四)委員李坤城等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(三十五)委\n員盧縣一等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三及第一百八十五條之五條文修正草案」\n案、( 三十六) 委員謝龍介等16 人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、\n(三十七)委員羅智強等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(三十\n八)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(三十九)委\n員李彥秀等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(四十)委員許宇甄\n等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(四十一)委員萬美玲等17人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、( 四十二) 委員林楚茵等17 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(四十三)委員羅美玲等16人擬具「中華\n民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(四十四)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(四十五)委員張宏陸等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第一\n百八十五條之三及第一百八十五條之五條文修正草案」案、(四十六)委員李柏毅等16人擬具「中\n華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(四十七)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(四十八)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、 ( 四十九) 委員蔡易餘等16 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(五十)委員徐富癸等17人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(五十一)委員何欣純等19人擬具「中華民國刑法\n第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(五十二)委員林宜瑾等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百\n八十五條之三條文修正草案」案、(五十三)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五\n條之三條文修正草案」案、(五十四)委員劉建國等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三\n條文修正草案」案、(五十五)委員賴惠員等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修\n正草案」案、( 五十六) 委員郭昱晴等16 人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1156502_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}