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謝謝主席 我們先請國發基金"},{"start":17.6,"end":19.04,"text":"國發會的"},{"start":20.26,"end":20.96,"text":"執秘的"},{"start":20.96,"end":22.400000000000002,"text":"對 國發會的"},{"start":23.14,"end":27.04,"text":"汪直淑"},{"start":27.24,"end":27.759999999999998,"text":"好"},{"start":28.279999999999998,"end":30.18,"text":"執秘你好 我想請教一下"},{"start":30.18,"end":31.919999999999998,"text":"因為我剛剛聽到這個"},{"start":32.18,"end":33.96,"text":"陳昭之委員有來問有關於"},{"start":33.96,"end":36.44,"text":"礦石智能獲得國發基金投資的這個事情"},{"start":36.44,"end":39.68,"text":"我想我們還是必須把事實來講清楚說明白"},{"start":39.68,"end":43.56,"text":"不能讓它變成是一個政治攻擊或是造謠的場域"},{"start":43.56,"end":45.28,"text":"所以我想問一下就是說"},{"start":45.28,"end":48.16,"text":"針對這一筆兩千萬的資金"},{"start":48.16,"end":50.32,"text":"據我所理解的"},{"start":50.32,"end":53.04,"text":"是國發基金取得公司股權的投資"},{"start":53.04,"end":55.16,"text":"它不是補助案 對嗎"},{"start":55.16,"end":55.92,"text":"對"},{"start":55.92,"end":56.64,"text":"好"},{"start":56.64,"end":61.480000000000004,"text":"那這個公司是依公開的創業天使的投資方案來申請"},{"start":61.480000000000004,"end":62.2,"text":"它"},{"start":62.2,"end":66.68,"text":"應該是有經過外部專家依既定的程序來審議 對嗎"},{"start":66.68,"end":69.2,"text":"然後有民間的投資人共同來投資的 對吧"},{"start":69.2,"end":69.7,"text":"是的"},{"start":69.7,"end":70.32,"text":"是的"},{"start":70.32,"end":75.56,"text":"所以外界所稱的兩次的投資其實是同一次的現金增資"},{"start":75.56,"end":78.96000000000001,"text":"國發基金其實根本後續沒有再投入 對嗎"},{"start":78.96000000000001,"end":79.68,"text":"對"},{"start":79.68,"end":80.32,"text":"好"},{"start":80.32,"end":84.52,"text":"那再來就是說根據公職人員利益衝突迴避法"},{"start":84.52,"end":85.64,"text":"其實我們"},{"start":85.64,"end":89.2,"text":"真正要檢驗的應該是公職人員有沒有介入"},{"start":89.2,"end":92.6,"text":"有沒有關說 有沒有影響 有沒有影響審查"},{"start":92.6,"end":95.48,"text":"那我這個部分是不是可以再澄清一下"},{"start":95.48,"end":97.6,"text":"你們是不是有符合相關的規定呢"},{"start":97.6,"end":99,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":99,"end":100.84,"text":"國發基金在做投資的時候"},{"start":100.84,"end":107.48,"text":"都是有遵照這個公職人員利益衝突迴避法的規定來辦理"},{"start":107.48,"end":108.88,"text":"好 了解 好 謝謝"},{"start":108.88,"end":110.24000000000001,"text":"那我想其實"},{"start":110.24000000000001,"end":112.04,"text":"國發會也好 經濟部也好"},{"start":112.04,"end":114.2,"text":"其實都說了非常非常多次"},{"start":114.2,"end":115.48,"text":"我會認為說"},{"start":115.52000000000001,"end":117.44,"text":"既然已經說了非常非常清楚的事情"},{"start":117.44,"end":120.92,"text":"不要一拿這個想要抹黑的事情一再的去造謠"},{"start":120.92,"end":124.04,"text":"只是為了自己的政治來圖利自己"},{"start":124.04,"end":126.52000000000001,"text":"所以我會認為這個民眾黨拜託"},{"start":126.52000000000001,"end":128.92000000000002,"text":"請你們停止這樣子的造謠跟抹黑"},{"start":128.92000000000002,"end":131.64000000000001,"text":"讓公務員們讓我們的制度上面可以好好做事"},{"start":131.64000000000001,"end":132.36,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":132.36,"end":134.92000000000002,"text":"那接下來我要請這個法務部"},{"start":136.56,"end":137.84,"text":"好 請政部長"},{"start":140.4,"end":141.8,"text":"好 部長我想請教一下"},{"start":141.8,"end":143.72,"text":"就是說我們來檢"},{"start":143.76,"end":147.28,"text":"這次這個食藥署清查的30批油品呢"},{"start":147.88,"end":149.08,"text":"這個陸陸續續啦"},{"start":149.08,"end":152.4,"text":"總共是一開始是不合格的是5批"},{"start":152.4,"end":155.68,"text":"然後後來又發現兩個油品的批號不合格"},{"start":155.68,"end":158.4,"text":"所以總共是有7批問題油品"},{"start":158.4,"end":161.96,"text":"然後後來我們又持續的去抽驗檢查"},{"start":161.96,"end":163.07999999999998,"text":"那目前呢"},{"start":163.07999999999998,"end":166.96,"text":"已經有下架2769公噸"},{"start":166.96,"end":169.88,"text":"然後還有5000多公噸的油品採預防性下架"},{"start":169.88,"end":171.56,"text":"那也已經進入了刑事審查"},{"start":171.6,"end":174.48,"text":"7月9號的時候我們進去搜索中聯油品"},{"start":174.48,"end":175.48,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":176.72,"end":179.72,"text":"同時呢我們也跟這個法院申請扣押"},{"start":179.72,"end":182.8,"text":"中聯福壽福茂跟泰山世間公司"},{"start":182.8,"end":185.36,"text":"名下的土地房屋等不動產對不對"},{"start":185.36,"end":185.72,"text":"是"},{"start":185.72,"end":186.84,"text":"那我想請教一下"},{"start":186.84,"end":188.44,"text":"因為在6月29號"},{"start":188.44,"end":192.76,"text":"中聯公司受到了第三方的這個檢驗結果"},{"start":192.76,"end":196.4,"text":"通報6月30號通報了台中市政府"},{"start":196.4,"end":199.04,"text":"那可是我看到你們法務部的報告"},{"start":199.04,"end":201.2,"text":"7月22號的報告只有寫說"},{"start":201.2,"end":203.79999999999998,"text":"7月2號召開平台會議"},{"start":203.79999999999998,"end":206.51999999999998,"text":"7月9號才執行搜索"},{"start":206.51999999999998,"end":208.79999999999998,"text":"我想問一下司法證據保全"},{"start":208.79999999999998,"end":210.56,"text":"有沒有所謂的黃金時間"},{"start":210.56,"end":213.56,"text":"因為如果我們拖的時間比較久的時候"},{"start":213.56,"end":218,"text":"那是不是就有可能讓他可以去整理三改內部的一些資料呢"},{"start":218,"end":220.04,"text":"那我們目前到底有沒有一個明確"},{"start":220.04,"end":221.48,"text":"在重大食安事件"},{"start":221.48,"end":226.6,"text":"我們多久的時間應該要即刻的來去進行搜索"},{"start":226.6,"end":228.07999999999998,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":228.07999999999998,"end":229.67999999999998,"text":"那個搜索的話"},{"start":230.24,"end":232.52,"text":"的確是要做證據的一個"},{"start":232.52,"end":233.16,"text":"保全"},{"start":233.16,"end":234.16,"text":"收集跟保全"},{"start":234.16,"end":234.88,"text":"對"},{"start":234.88,"end":236.88,"text":"那當然這個食安法沒有就"},{"start":236.88,"end":238.32,"text":"因為行政是做行政管理"},{"start":238.32,"end":241.92000000000002,"text":"他如果違反一些像通報等等的"},{"start":241.92000000000002,"end":245.52,"text":"或者也會製造這些的一些的刑責以外"},{"start":245.52,"end":246.60000000000002,"text":"他是一個犯罪行為"},{"start":246.60000000000002,"end":250.64000000000001,"text":"他不會就沒有就怎麼要證據保全做一個明確的規定"},{"start":250.64000000000001,"end":252.8,"text":"其實包括刑事訴訟也是一樣"},{"start":252.8,"end":255.52,"text":"因為這是每個案件的案情不同"},{"start":255.52,"end":257.12,"text":"那所以我沒有搜索的必要"},{"start":257.12,"end":259.12,"text":"就會跟法院申請搜索"},{"start":259.16,"end":260.44,"text":"那我想這部分"},{"start":260.44,"end":262.44,"text":"當我們要去搜索要跟法院申請搜索"},{"start":262.44,"end":265.04,"text":"但是我剛剛聽到你在前面的委員的質詢的時候"},{"start":265.04,"end":266.64,"text":"其實大家也都非常關切"},{"start":266.64,"end":269.12,"text":"因為可能到時候要做相關的民事求償"},{"start":269.12,"end":270.92,"text":"這個到時候可能就會求償無門"},{"start":270.92,"end":273.4,"text":"所以才會希望大家可以積極的去做"},{"start":273.4,"end":274.64,"text":"所以我想問一下就是說"},{"start":274.64,"end":275.72,"text":"所以現在目前就是說"},{"start":275.72,"end":277.72,"text":"我們並沒有一個明確的判斷標準"},{"start":277.72,"end":278.72,"text":"是在幾個小時之內"},{"start":278.72,"end":280.4,"text":"這個按照那個"},{"start":280.4,"end":282.76,"text":"我想那個我們證據一定要進搜索"},{"start":282.76,"end":284.96,"text":"一定要想擁有的一個證據資料"},{"start":284.96,"end":286.56,"text":"去證明搜索的必要"},{"start":286.56,"end":287.2,"text":"沒錯我同意"},{"start":287.2,"end":288,"text":"那我們要扣什麼東西"},{"start":288.04,"end":290.04,"text":"所以法院才有可能會核准嘛"},{"start":290.04,"end":292.04,"text":"才會準票因為是另撞的嘛"},{"start":292.04,"end":294.04,"text":"那這部分我想這件"},{"start":294.04,"end":296.04,"text":"7月2號我們有啟動平台"},{"start":296.04,"end":297.04,"text":"7月3號立案"},{"start":297.04,"end":299.04,"text":"我們7月9號就去搜第一次了"},{"start":299.04,"end":301.04,"text":"其實7月6號我們有去"},{"start":301.04,"end":303.04,"text":"有專案小組的有去那個"},{"start":303.04,"end":305.04,"text":"廠裡面到廠裡面去"},{"start":305.04,"end":307.04,"text":"調取相關資料"},{"start":307.04,"end":309.04,"text":"7月6號已經去調取相關資料"},{"start":309.04,"end":311.04,"text":"但是我想這個"},{"start":311.04,"end":313.04,"text":"調查相關資料我想要不要做一個"},{"start":313.04,"end":315.04,"text":"一個做怎麼樣的一個運用"},{"start":315.04,"end":317.04,"text":"我想檢察官會依照他們的"},{"start":317.08000000000004,"end":319.08000000000004,"text":"偵查策略來做一個一個來規劃"},{"start":319.08000000000004,"end":322.08000000000004,"text":"所以我們昨天也再搜索第二次了"},{"start":322.08000000000004,"end":324.08000000000004,"text":"好了解那我想提醒一下"},{"start":324.08000000000004,"end":326.08000000000004,"text":"就是說我們的食安法"},{"start":326.08000000000004,"end":328.08000000000004,"text":"49條同時是規範了故意跟過失"},{"start":328.08000000000004,"end":331.08000000000004,"text":"那這兩個的刑責差距其實是非常的大"},{"start":331.08000000000004,"end":333.08000000000004,"text":"那現在我們必須要去釐清的"},{"start":333.08000000000004,"end":335.08000000000004,"text":"不是只有油品有沒有超標而是"},{"start":335.08000000000004,"end":337.08000000000004,"text":"是要去查業者"},{"start":337.08000000000004,"end":339.08000000000004,"text":"知道了之後他到底怎麼做"},{"start":339.08000000000004,"end":341.08000000000004,"text":"因為如果他是尚未確認原因"},{"start":341.08000000000004,"end":343.08000000000004,"text":"所以他還是在合理的期間去"},{"start":343.08000000000004,"end":345.08000000000004,"text":"復業那他可能涉及的是過失嘛"},{"start":345.12,"end":347.12,"text":"對不對可是如果他是已經知道"},{"start":347.12,"end":350.12,"text":"油品有問題可是他還出貨"},{"start":350.12,"end":353.12,"text":"去販售那就應該不是過失了"},{"start":353.12,"end":356.12,"text":"所以他應該是涉及故意犯罪"},{"start":356.12,"end":358.12,"text":"所以我想請問一下部長就是說"},{"start":358.12,"end":361.12,"text":"我們是不是會就這個方面來去做調查"},{"start":361.12,"end":364.12,"text":"這個我想檢察官會針對這個"},{"start":364.12,"end":366.12,"text":"因為的確委員關係這問題也是檢察官"},{"start":366.12,"end":369.12,"text":"要努力去去積極去蒐證的"},{"start":369.12,"end":371.12,"text":"因為的確食安法是規定"},{"start":371.12,"end":374.12,"text":"有有有違反的之語"},{"start":374.16,"end":377.16,"text":"應該是第七條第五項"},{"start":377.16,"end":379.16,"text":"我忘了那個確定的條文"},{"start":379.16,"end":381.16,"text":"他裡面有之語"},{"start":381.16,"end":384.16,"text":"他就業者就要通報的意務了"},{"start":384.16,"end":386.16,"text":"通報的意務那這部分"},{"start":386.16,"end":389.16,"text":"當然如果說有這樣的一個"},{"start":389.16,"end":392.16,"text":"違反通報的意務那還在出貨"},{"start":392.16,"end":394.16,"text":"那可能會是不是故意犯"},{"start":394.16,"end":398.16,"text":"我想檢察官會去積極的去蒐集事件"},{"start":398.16,"end":400.16,"text":"來做一個試試認定"},{"start":400.16,"end":402.16,"text":"那還有第三個也是一個提醒就是說"},{"start":402.20000000000005,"end":404.20000000000005,"text":"他們因為後來又查到有漏報"},{"start":404.20000000000005,"end":405.20000000000005,"text":"因為原本是29P"},{"start":405.20000000000005,"end":408.20000000000005,"text":"後來又發現其實是30P"},{"start":408.20000000000005,"end":410.20000000000005,"text":"所以呢因為我看你們的報告"},{"start":410.20000000000005,"end":412.20000000000005,"text":"只有提到是否有延遲通報"},{"start":412.20000000000005,"end":414.20000000000005,"text":"但其實已經不是延遲通報"},{"start":414.20000000000005,"end":417.20000000000005,"text":"他還有漏報少報假報的問題"},{"start":417.20000000000005,"end":419.20000000000005,"text":"所以這個是不是可以去調查"},{"start":419.20000000000005,"end":421.20000000000005,"text":"如果明知業者是資料不實"},{"start":421.20000000000005,"end":422.20000000000005,"text":"可是還是提供給主管機關"},{"start":422.20000000000005,"end":424.20000000000005,"text":"或者是下游的業者"},{"start":424.20000000000005,"end":427.20000000000005,"text":"是否涉及刑法的登載不實之罪"},{"start":427.20000000000005,"end":430.20000000000005,"text":"行使不實文書甚至是詐欺等等"},{"start":430.24,"end":433.24,"text":"是否都已經納入我們檢察官調查的範圍呢"},{"start":433.24,"end":435.24,"text":"這個一定是會納入"},{"start":435.24,"end":436.24,"text":"我想檢察官在偵查犯罪"},{"start":436.24,"end":438.24,"text":"他會釐清各項的犯罪行為"},{"start":438.24,"end":440.24,"text":"就像我們關心的"},{"start":440.24,"end":442.24,"text":"這是故意蓋牌嘛"},{"start":442.24,"end":443.24,"text":"我覺得明知有"},{"start":443.24,"end":446.24,"text":"有這個疑慮或者是已經確定有了"},{"start":446.24,"end":447.24,"text":"我還在蓋牌不講"},{"start":447.24,"end":449.24,"text":"然後再出貨"},{"start":449.24,"end":452.24,"text":"那這樣我想這部分檢察官會全力來偵辦"},{"start":452.24,"end":454.24,"text":"如果有的話我們依照"},{"start":454.24,"end":457.24,"text":"依這個犯罪事實來起訴求刑"},{"start":457.24,"end":459.24,"text":"好謝謝那就是"},{"start":459.28000000000003,"end":460.28000000000003,"text":"接下來我請次長"},{"start":462.28000000000003,"end":464.28000000000003,"text":"好請您次長"},{"start":466.28000000000003,"end":467.28000000000003,"text":"委員長"},{"start":467.28000000000003,"end":468.28000000000003,"text":"好次長長"},{"start":468.28000000000003,"end":469.28000000000003,"text":"因為我想這個是"},{"start":469.28000000000003,"end":472.28000000000003,"text":"這個草案今天可能會通過行政院院會"},{"start":472.28000000000003,"end":473.28000000000003,"text":"那這就會是我們十年來"},{"start":473.28000000000003,"end":475.28000000000003,"text":"第一再一次的去針對食安"},{"start":475.28000000000003,"end":477.28000000000003,"text":"進行一個新的規範"},{"start":477.28000000000003,"end":479.28000000000003,"text":"那這一次會增加源頭管理的次數"},{"start":479.28000000000003,"end":481.28000000000003,"text":"以及一定的規模的業者"},{"start":481.28000000000003,"end":483.28000000000003,"text":"要自己設置這個實驗室"},{"start":483.28000000000003,"end":484.28000000000003,"text":"那這個勢必要跟業者"},{"start":484.28000000000003,"end":487.28000000000003,"text":"學校還有市場跟民眾來做好好的溝通"},{"start":487.32,"end":489.32,"text":"那我自己今天也會開座談會"},{"start":489.32,"end":491.32,"text":"來邀請我們的家長"},{"start":491.32,"end":492.32,"text":"還有相關的團體"},{"start":492.32,"end":494.32,"text":"還有這個醫師"},{"start":494.32,"end":496.32,"text":"食安專家來針對這個部分來做討論"},{"start":496.32,"end":498.32,"text":"那我現在想要針對幾個問題"},{"start":498.32,"end":499.32,"text":"來跟次長做討論"},{"start":499.32,"end":502.32,"text":"就是我們以預犯團的食安把關"},{"start":502.32,"end":504.32,"text":"我們以現在據我所知"},{"start":504.32,"end":507.32,"text":"我們現在從原料到門市上架"},{"start":507.32,"end":508.32,"text":"大概是五成"},{"start":508.32,"end":511.32,"text":"流程上就是從原料進貨"},{"start":511.32,"end":512.3199999999999,"text":"還有HACCP"},{"start":512.3199999999999,"end":513.3199999999999,"text":"成品放行"},{"start":513.3199999999999,"end":516.3199999999999,"text":"以及收到最後的物流跟門市的時候"},{"start":516.36,"end":518.36,"text":"目前基本上就是有五成"},{"start":518.36,"end":520.36,"text":"那如果加上政府的抽驗"},{"start":520.36,"end":521.36,"text":"現在是六成"},{"start":521.36,"end":522.36,"text":"對嗎"},{"start":522.36,"end":524.36,"text":"如果是以委員這邊提到"},{"start":524.36,"end":526.36,"text":"我們有這些不同層次的把關"},{"start":526.36,"end":529.36,"text":"當然不同的食品或者是原料"},{"start":529.36,"end":530.36,"text":"它還有一些不同的標準"},{"start":530.36,"end":531.36,"text":"沒錯 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