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謝謝主席 我們先請國發基金"},{"start":17.6,"end":19.04,"text":"國發會的"},{"start":20.26,"end":20.96,"text":"執秘的"},{"start":20.96,"end":22.400000000000002,"text":"對 國發會的"},{"start":23.14,"end":27.04,"text":"汪直淑"},{"start":27.24,"end":27.759999999999998,"text":"好"},{"start":28.279999999999998,"end":30.18,"text":"執秘你好 我想請教一下"},{"start":30.18,"end":31.919999999999998,"text":"因為我剛剛聽到這個"},{"start":32.18,"end":33.96,"text":"陳昭之委員有來問有關於"},{"start":33.96,"end":36.44,"text":"礦石智能獲得國發基金投資的這個事情"},{"start":36.44,"end":39.68,"text":"我想我們還是必須把事實來講清楚說明白"},{"start":39.68,"end":43.56,"text":"不能讓它變成是一個政治攻擊或是造謠的場域"},{"start":43.56,"end":45.28,"text":"所以我想問一下就是說"},{"start":45.28,"end":48.16,"text":"針對這一筆兩千萬的資金"},{"start":48.16,"end":50.32,"text":"據我所理解的"},{"start":50.32,"end":53.04,"text":"是國發基金取得公司股權的投資"},{"start":53.04,"end":55.16,"text":"它不是補助案 對嗎"},{"start":55.16,"end":55.92,"text":"對"},{"start":55.92,"end":56.64,"text":"好"},{"start":56.64,"end":61.480000000000004,"text":"那這個公司是依公開的創業天使的投資方案來申請"},{"start":61.480000000000004,"end":62.2,"text":"它"},{"start":62.2,"end":66.68,"text":"應該是有經過外部專家依既定的程序來審議 對嗎"},{"start":66.68,"end":69.2,"text":"然後有民間的投資人共同來投資的 對吧"},{"start":69.2,"end":69.7,"text":"是的"},{"start":69.7,"end":70.32,"text":"是的"},{"start":70.32,"end":75.56,"text":"所以外界所稱的兩次的投資其實是同一次的現金增資"},{"start":75.56,"end":78.96000000000001,"text":"國發基金其實根本後續沒有再投入 對嗎"},{"start":78.96000000000001,"end":79.68,"text":"對"},{"start":79.68,"end":80.32,"text":"好"},{"start":80.32,"end":84.52,"text":"那再來就是說根據公職人員利益衝突迴避法"},{"start":84.52,"end":85.64,"text":"其實我們"},{"start":85.64,"end":89.2,"text":"真正要檢驗的應該是公職人員有沒有介入"},{"start":89.2,"end":92.6,"text":"有沒有關說 有沒有影響 有沒有影響審查"},{"start":92.6,"end":95.48,"text":"那我這個部分是不是可以再澄清一下"},{"start":95.48,"end":97.6,"text":"你們是不是有符合相關的規定呢"},{"start":97.6,"end":99,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":99,"end":100.84,"text":"國發基金在做投資的時候"},{"start":100.84,"end":107.48,"text":"都是有遵照這個公職人員利益衝突迴避法的規定來辦理"},{"start":107.48,"end":108.88,"text":"好 了解 好 謝謝"},{"start":108.88,"end":110.24000000000001,"text":"那我想其實"},{"start":110.24000000000001,"end":112.04,"text":"國發會也好 經濟部也好"},{"start":112.04,"end":114.2,"text":"其實都說了非常非常多次"},{"start":114.2,"end":115.48,"text":"我會認為說"},{"start":115.52000000000001,"end":117.44,"text":"既然已經說了非常非常清楚的事情"},{"start":117.44,"end":120.92,"text":"不要一拿這個想要抹黑的事情一再的去造謠"},{"start":120.92,"end":124.04,"text":"只是為了自己的政治來圖利自己"},{"start":124.04,"end":126.52000000000001,"text":"所以我會認為這個民眾黨拜託"},{"start":126.52000000000001,"end":128.92000000000002,"text":"請你們停止這樣子的造謠跟抹黑"},{"start":128.92000000000002,"end":131.64000000000001,"text":"讓公務員們讓我們的制度上面可以好好做事"},{"start":131.64000000000001,"end":132.36,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":132.36,"end":134.92000000000002,"text":"那接下來我要請這個法務部"},{"start":136.56,"end":137.84,"text":"好 請政部長"},{"start":140.4,"end":141.8,"text":"好 部長我想請教一下"},{"start":141.8,"end":143.72,"text":"就是說我們來檢"},{"start":143.76,"end":147.28,"text":"這次這個食藥署清查的30批油品呢"},{"start":147.88,"end":149.08,"text":"這個陸陸續續啦"},{"start":149.08,"end":152.4,"text":"總共是一開始是不合格的是5批"},{"start":152.4,"end":155.68,"text":"然後後來又發現兩個油品的批號不合格"},{"start":155.68,"end":158.4,"text":"所以總共是有7批問題油品"},{"start":158.4,"end":161.96,"text":"然後後來我們又持續的去抽驗檢查"},{"start":161.96,"end":163.07999999999998,"text":"那目前呢"},{"start":163.07999999999998,"end":166.96,"text":"已經有下架2769公噸"},{"start":166.96,"end":169.88,"text":"然後還有5000多公噸的油品採預防性下架"},{"start":169.88,"end":171.56,"text":"那也已經進入了刑事審查"},{"start":171.6,"end":174.48,"text":"7月9號的時候我們進去搜索中聯油品"},{"start":174.48,"end":175.48,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":176.72,"end":179.72,"text":"同時呢我們也跟這個法院申請扣押"},{"start":179.72,"end":182.8,"text":"中聯福壽福茂跟泰山世間公司"},{"start":182.8,"end":185.36,"text":"名下的土地房屋等不動產對不對"},{"start":185.36,"end":185.72,"text":"是"},{"start":185.72,"end":186.84,"text":"那我想請教一下"},{"start":186.84,"end":188.44,"text":"因為在6月29號"},{"start":188.44,"end":192.76,"text":"中聯公司受到了第三方的這個檢驗結果"},{"start":192.76,"end":196.4,"text":"通報6月30號通報了台中市政府"},{"start":196.4,"end":199.04,"text":"那可是我看到你們法務部的報告"},{"start":199.04,"end":201.2,"text":"7月22號的報告只有寫說"},{"start":201.2,"end":203.79999999999998,"text":"7月2號召開平台會議"},{"start":203.79999999999998,"end":206.51999999999998,"text":"7月9號才執行搜索"},{"start":206.51999999999998,"end":208.79999999999998,"text":"我想問一下司法證據保全"},{"start":208.79999999999998,"end":210.56,"text":"有沒有所謂的黃金時間"},{"start":210.56,"end":213.56,"text":"因為如果我們拖的時間比較久的時候"},{"start":213.56,"end":218,"text":"那是不是就有可能讓他可以去整理三改內部的一些資料呢"},{"start":218,"end":220.04,"text":"那我們目前到底有沒有一個明確"},{"start":220.04,"end":221.48,"text":"在重大食安事件"},{"start":221.48,"end":226.6,"text":"我們多久的時間應該要即刻的來去進行搜索"},{"start":226.6,"end":228.07999999999998,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":228.07999999999998,"end":229.67999999999998,"text":"那個搜索的話"},{"start":230.24,"end":232.52,"text":"的確是要做證據的一個"},{"start":232.52,"end":233.16,"text":"保全"},{"start":233.16,"end":234.16,"text":"收集跟保全"},{"start":234.16,"end":234.88,"text":"對"},{"start":234.88,"end":236.88,"text":"那當然這個食安法沒有就"},{"start":236.88,"end":238.32,"text":"因為行政是做行政管理"},{"start":238.32,"end":241.92000000000002,"text":"他如果違反一些像通報等等的"},{"start":241.92000000000002,"end":245.52,"text":"或者也會製造這些的一些的刑責以外"},{"start":245.52,"end":246.60000000000002,"text":"他是一個犯罪行為"},{"start":246.60000000000002,"end":250.64000000000001,"text":"他不會就沒有就怎麼要證據保全做一個明確的規定"},{"start":250.64000000000001,"end":252.8,"text":"其實包括刑事訴訟也是一樣"},{"start":252.8,"end":255.52,"text":"因為這是每個案件的案情不同"},{"start":255.52,"end":257.12,"text":"那所以我沒有搜索的必要"},{"start":257.12,"end":259.12,"text":"就會跟法院申請搜索"},{"start":259.16,"end":260.44,"text":"那我想這部分"},{"start":260.44,"end":262.44,"text":"當我們要去搜索要跟法院申請搜索"},{"start":262.44,"end":265.04,"text":"但是我剛剛聽到你在前面的委員的質詢的時候"},{"start":265.04,"end":266.64,"text":"其實大家也都非常關切"},{"start":266.64,"end":269.12,"text":"因為可能到時候要做相關的民事求償"},{"start":269.12,"end":270.92,"text":"這個到時候可能就會求償無門"},{"start":270.92,"end":273.4,"text":"所以才會希望大家可以積極的去做"},{"start":273.4,"end":274.64,"text":"所以我想問一下就是說"},{"start":274.64,"end":275.72,"text":"所以現在目前就是說"},{"start":275.72,"end":277.72,"text":"我們並沒有一個明確的判斷標準"},{"start":277.72,"end":278.72,"text":"是在幾個小時之內"},{"start":278.72,"end":280.4,"text":"這個按照那個"},{"start":280.4,"end":282.76,"text":"我想那個我們證據一定要進搜索"},{"start":282.76,"end":284.96,"text":"一定要想擁有的一個證據資料"},{"start":284.96,"end":286.56,"text":"去證明搜索的必要"},{"start":286.56,"end":287.2,"text":"沒錯我同意"},{"start":287.2,"end":288,"text":"那我們要扣什麼東西"},{"start":288.04,"end":290.04,"text":"所以法院才有可能會核准嘛"},{"start":290.04,"end":292.04,"text":"才會準票因為是另撞的嘛"},{"start":292.04,"end":294.04,"text":"那這部分我想這件"},{"start":294.04,"end":296.04,"text":"7月2號我們有啟動平台"},{"start":296.04,"end":297.04,"text":"7月3號立案"},{"start":297.04,"end":299.04,"text":"我們7月9號就去搜第一次了"},{"start":299.04,"end":301.04,"text":"其實7月6號我們有去"},{"start":301.04,"end":303.04,"text":"有專案小組的有去那個"},{"start":303.04,"end":305.04,"text":"廠裡面到廠裡面去"},{"start":305.04,"end":307.04,"text":"調取相關資料"},{"start":307.04,"end":309.04,"text":"7月6號已經去調取相關資料"},{"start":309.04,"end":311.04,"text":"但是我想這個"},{"start":311.04,"end":313.04,"text":"調查相關資料我想要不要做一個"},{"start":313.04,"end":315.04,"text":"一個做怎麼樣的一個運用"},{"start":315.04,"end":317.04,"text":"我想檢察官會依照他們的"},{"start":317.08000000000004,"end":319.08000000000004,"text":"偵查策略來做一個一個來規劃"},{"start":319.08000000000004,"end":322.08000000000004,"text":"所以我們昨天也再搜索第二次了"},{"start":322.08000000000004,"end":324.08000000000004,"text":"好了解那我想提醒一下"},{"start":324.08000000000004,"end":326.08000000000004,"text":"就是說我們的食安法"},{"start":326.08000000000004,"end":328.08000000000004,"text":"49條同時是規範了故意跟過失"},{"start":328.08000000000004,"end":331.08000000000004,"text":"那這兩個的刑責差距其實是非常的大"},{"start":331.08000000000004,"end":333.08000000000004,"text":"那現在我們必須要去釐清的"},{"start":333.08000000000004,"end":335.08000000000004,"text":"不是只有油品有沒有超標而是"},{"start":335.08000000000004,"end":337.08000000000004,"text":"是要去查業者"},{"start":337.08000000000004,"end":339.08000000000004,"text":"知道了之後他到底怎麼做"},{"start":339.08000000000004,"end":341.08000000000004,"text":"因為如果他是尚未確認原因"},{"start":341.08000000000004,"end":343.08000000000004,"text":"所以他還是在合理的期間去"},{"start":343.08000000000004,"end":345.08000000000004,"text":"復業那他可能涉及的是過失嘛"},{"start":345.12,"end":347.12,"text":"對不對可是如果他是已經知道"},{"start":347.12,"end":350.12,"text":"油品有問題可是他還出貨"},{"start":350.12,"end":353.12,"text":"去販售那就應該不是過失了"},{"start":353.12,"end":356.12,"text":"所以他應該是涉及故意犯罪"},{"start":356.12,"end":358.12,"text":"所以我想請問一下部長就是說"},{"start":358.12,"end":361.12,"text":"我們是不是會就這個方面來去做調查"},{"start":361.12,"end":364.12,"text":"這個我想檢察官會針對這個"},{"start":364.12,"end":366.12,"text":"因為的確委員關係這問題也是檢察官"},{"start":366.12,"end":369.12,"text":"要努力去去積極去蒐證的"},{"start":369.12,"end":371.12,"text":"因為的確食安法是規定"},{"start":371.12,"end":374.12,"text":"有有有違反的之語"},{"start":374.16,"end":377.16,"text":"應該是第七條第五項"},{"start":377.16,"end":379.16,"text":"我忘了那個確定的條文"},{"start":379.16,"end":381.16,"text":"他裡面有之語"},{"start":381.16,"end":384.16,"text":"他就業者就要通報的意務了"},{"start":384.16,"end":386.16,"text":"通報的意務那這部分"},{"start":386.16,"end":389.16,"text":"當然如果說有這樣的一個"},{"start":389.16,"end":392.16,"text":"違反通報的意務那還在出貨"},{"start":392.16,"end":394.16,"text":"那可能會是不是故意犯"},{"start":394.16,"end":398.16,"text":"我想檢察官會去積極的去蒐集事件"},{"start":398.16,"end":400.16,"text":"來做一個試試認定"},{"start":400.16,"end":402.16,"text":"那還有第三個也是一個提醒就是說"},{"start":402.20000000000005,"end":404.20000000000005,"text":"他們因為後來又查到有漏報"},{"start":404.20000000000005,"end":405.20000000000005,"text":"因為原本是29P"},{"start":405.20000000000005,"end":408.20000000000005,"text":"後來又發現其實是30P"},{"start":408.20000000000005,"end":410.20000000000005,"text":"所以呢因為我看你們的報告"},{"start":410.20000000000005,"end":412.20000000000005,"text":"只有提到是否有延遲通報"},{"start":412.20000000000005,"end":414.20000000000005,"text":"但其實已經不是延遲通報"},{"start":414.20000000000005,"end":417.20000000000005,"text":"他還有漏報少報假報的問題"},{"start":417.20000000000005,"end":419.20000000000005,"text":"所以這個是不是可以去調查"},{"start":419.20000000000005,"end":421.20000000000005,"text":"如果明知業者是資料不實"},{"start":421.20000000000005,"end":422.20000000000005,"text":"可是還是提供給主管機關"},{"start":422.20000000000005,"end":424.20000000000005,"text":"或者是下游的業者"},{"start":424.20000000000005,"end":427.20000000000005,"text":"是否涉及刑法的登載不實之罪"},{"start":427.20000000000005,"end":430.20000000000005,"text":"行使不實文書甚至是詐欺等等"},{"start":430.24,"end":433.24,"text":"是否都已經納入我們檢察官調查的範圍呢"},{"start":433.24,"end":435.24,"text":"這個一定是會納入"},{"start":435.24,"end":436.24,"text":"我想檢察官在偵查犯罪"},{"start":436.24,"end":438.24,"text":"他會釐清各項的犯罪行為"},{"start":438.24,"end":440.24,"text":"就像我們關心的"},{"start":440.24,"end":442.24,"text":"這是故意蓋牌嘛"},{"start":442.24,"end":443.24,"text":"我覺得明知有"},{"start":443.24,"end":446.24,"text":"有這個疑慮或者是已經確定有了"},{"start":446.24,"end":447.24,"text":"我還在蓋牌不講"},{"start":447.24,"end":449.24,"text":"然後再出貨"},{"start":449.24,"end":452.24,"text":"那這樣我想這部分檢察官會全力來偵辦"},{"start":452.24,"end":454.24,"text":"如果有的話我們依照"},{"start":454.24,"end":457.24,"text":"依這個犯罪事實來起訴求刑"},{"start":457.24,"end":459.24,"text":"好謝謝那就是"},{"start":459.28000000000003,"end":460.28000000000003,"text":"接下來我請次長"},{"start":462.28000000000003,"end":464.28000000000003,"text":"好請您次長"},{"start":466.28000000000003,"end":467.28000000000003,"text":"委員長"},{"start":467.28000000000003,"end":468.28000000000003,"text":"好次長長"},{"start":468.28000000000003,"end":469.28000000000003,"text":"因為我想這個是"},{"start":469.28000000000003,"end":472.28000000000003,"text":"這個草案今天可能會通過行政院院會"},{"start":472.28000000000003,"end":473.28000000000003,"text":"那這就會是我們十年來"},{"start":473.28000000000003,"end":475.28000000000003,"text":"第一再一次的去針對食安"},{"start":475.28000000000003,"end":477.28000000000003,"text":"進行一個新的規範"},{"start":477.28000000000003,"end":479.28000000000003,"text":"那這一次會增加源頭管理的次數"},{"start":479.28000000000003,"end":481.28000000000003,"text":"以及一定的規模的業者"},{"start":481.28000000000003,"end":483.28000000000003,"text":"要自己設置這個實驗室"},{"start":483.28000000000003,"end":484.28000000000003,"text":"那這個勢必要跟業者"},{"start":484.28000000000003,"end":487.28000000000003,"text":"學校還有市場跟民眾來做好好的溝通"},{"start":487.32,"end":489.32,"text":"那我自己今天也會開座談會"},{"start":489.32,"end":491.32,"text":"來邀請我們的家長"},{"start":491.32,"end":492.32,"text":"還有相關的團體"},{"start":492.32,"end":494.32,"text":"還有這個醫師"},{"start":494.32,"end":496.32,"text":"食安專家來針對這個部分來做討論"},{"start":496.32,"end":498.32,"text":"那我現在想要針對幾個問題"},{"start":498.32,"end":499.32,"text":"來跟次長做討論"},{"start":499.32,"end":502.32,"text":"就是我們以預犯團的食安把關"},{"start":502.32,"end":504.32,"text":"我們以現在據我所知"},{"start":504.32,"end":507.32,"text":"我們現在從原料到門市上架"},{"start":507.32,"end":508.32,"text":"大概是五成"},{"start":508.32,"end":511.32,"text":"流程上就是從原料進貨"},{"start":511.32,"end":512.3199999999999,"text":"還有HACCP"},{"start":512.3199999999999,"end":513.3199999999999,"text":"成品放行"},{"start":513.3199999999999,"end":516.3199999999999,"text":"以及收到最後的物流跟門市的時候"},{"start":516.36,"end":518.36,"text":"目前基本上就是有五成"},{"start":518.36,"end":520.36,"text":"那如果加上政府的抽驗"},{"start":520.36,"end":521.36,"text":"現在是六成"},{"start":521.36,"end":522.36,"text":"對嗎"},{"start":522.36,"end":524.36,"text":"如果是以委員這邊提到"},{"start":524.36,"end":526.36,"text":"我們有這些不同層次的把關"},{"start":526.36,"end":529.36,"text":"當然不同的食品或者是原料"},{"start":529.36,"end":530.36,"text":"它還有一些不同的標準"},{"start":530.36,"end":531.36,"text":"沒錯 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所以其實他們"},{"start":854.5999999999999,"end":855.5999999999999,"text":"他們事實上"},{"start":855.5999999999999,"end":856.5999999999999,"text":"當時"},{"start":856.5999999999999,"end":857.5999999999999,"text":"我們在我們這裡面"},{"start":857.5999999999999,"end":858.5999999999999,"text":"廠商事實上是"},{"start":858.5999999999999,"end":859.5999999999999,"text":"後來我們發現"},{"start":859.5999999999999,"end":860.5999999999999,"text":"他們漏報0401"},{"start":860.5999999999999,"end":861.5999999999999,"text":"那我們那時候"},{"start":861.64,"end":862.64,"text":"630那一批"},{"start":862.64,"end":863.64,"text":"對"},{"start":863.64,"end":864.64,"text":"好 所以就看起來"},{"start":864.64,"end":865.64,"text":"就會是上下游"},{"start":865.64,"end":866.64,"text":"廠商我們"},{"start":866.64,"end":867.64,"text":"大家掌握的資訊"},{"start":867.64,"end":868.64,"text":"是不一致的嘛"},{"start":868.64,"end":869.64,"text":"對不對"},{"start":869.64,"end":870.64,"text":"我們其實在非追"},{"start":870.64,"end":871.64,"text":"有跟委員報告一下"},{"start":871.64,"end":872.64,"text":"就是說我們在非追的系統"},{"start":872.64,"end":873.64,"text":"過去事實上"},{"start":873.64,"end":874.64,"text":"就是從廠商這邊"},{"start":874.64,"end":875.64,"text":"然後出貨"},{"start":875.64,"end":876.64,"text":"到比方說"},{"start":876.64,"end":877.64,"text":"這一次他到"},{"start":877.64,"end":878.64,"text":"這個泰山福茂福壽"},{"start":878.64,"end":879.64,"text":"這邊我們有非追的部分"},{"start":879.64,"end":880.64,"text":"那我們這一次修法"},{"start":880.64,"end":881.64,"text":"我們後續"},{"start":881.64,"end":882.64,"text":"會再對於"},{"start":882.64,"end":883.64,"text":"我們後續再往下追"},{"start":883.64,"end":884.64,"text":"就是說從"},{"start":884.64,"end":885.64,"text":"比方說以這一次來講"},{"start":885.64,"end":886.64,"text":"從泰山福茂福壽"},{"start":886.64,"end":887.64,"text":"他再往下的這個部分"},{"start":887.64,"end":888.64,"text":"我們會再往下撈"},{"start":888.64,"end":889.64,"text":"好 因為我想"},{"start":889.64,"end":890.64,"text":"這邊也是提供一個"},{"start":890.68,"end":891.68,"text":"提供一個參考"},{"start":892.68,"end":893.68,"text":"因為我自己"},{"start":893.68,"end":894.68,"text":"之前也曾經待過"},{"start":894.68,"end":895.68,"text":"食品業待了4年"},{"start":895.68,"end":897.68,"text":"我在外鄉的食品業公司"},{"start":897.68,"end":898.68,"text":"所以我也希望可以提供"},{"start":898.68,"end":899.68,"text":"美國的制度作為參考"},{"start":899.68,"end":900.68,"text":"就是說"},{"start":900.68,"end":901.68,"text":"這個美國制度裡面"},{"start":901.68,"end":902.68,"text":"它有一個叫"},{"start":902.68,"end":903.68,"text":"Traceability的"},{"start":903.68,"end":904.68,"text":"這個追溯批號的制度"},{"start":904.68,"end":905.68,"text":"就是說食品"},{"start":905.68,"end":906.68,"text":"在首次包裝之後"},{"start":906.68,"end":908.68,"text":"接收或經過加工混合"},{"start":908.68,"end":909.68,"text":"重新包裝之後"},{"start":909.68,"end":911.68,"text":"每一次的轉換都必須"},{"start":911.68,"end":912.68,"text":"建立所謂的"},{"start":912.68,"end":914.68,"text":"或延續的批號"},{"start":914.68,"end":915.68,"text":"那該批號必須"},{"start":915.68,"end":916.68,"text":"跟相關的生產收穫"},{"start":916.68,"end":918.68,"text":"出貨資料去做一些連結"},{"start":918.68,"end":919.68,"text":"那所以他不會"},{"start":919.7199999999999,"end":920.7199999999999,"text":"只有製造商"},{"start":920.7199999999999,"end":922.7199999999999,"text":"保存一張總清冊"},{"start":922.7199999999999,"end":923.7199999999999,"text":"而是供應"},{"start":923.7199999999999,"end":924.7199999999999,"text":"這個出供應鏈的"},{"start":924.7199999999999,"end":925.7199999999999,"text":"不同業者呢"},{"start":925.7199999999999,"end":926.7199999999999,"text":"分別會針對"},{"start":926.7199999999999,"end":927.7199999999999,"text":"自己所發生的事件"},{"start":927.7199999999999,"end":928.7199999999999,"text":"來保存相關的資料"},{"start":928.7199999999999,"end":929.7199999999999,"text":"所以上下游的資料"},{"start":929.7199999999999,"end":930.7199999999999,"text":"就可以去對齊"},{"start":930.7199999999999,"end":931.7199999999999,"text":"那我們就比較能夠"},{"start":931.7199999999999,"end":933.7199999999999,"text":"去做圓啦 真的"},{"start":933.7199999999999,"end":935.7199999999999,"text":"那所以在這次的修法上面"},{"start":935.7199999999999,"end":936.7199999999999,"text":"是不是也會針對"},{"start":936.7199999999999,"end":937.7199999999999,"text":"這個部分來去做調整"},{"start":937.7199999999999,"end":938.7199999999999,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":938.7199999999999,"end":939.7199999999999,"text":"這個部分其實就在"},{"start":939.7199999999999,"end":940.7199999999999,"text":"我們的未來的一些辦法"},{"start":940.7199999999999,"end":942.7199999999999,"text":"因為這是除了修母法之外"},{"start":942.7199999999999,"end":943.7199999999999,"text":"我們未來在一些"},{"start":943.7199999999999,"end":944.7199999999999,"text":"執法規會去做修正"},{"start":944.7199999999999,"end":945.7199999999999,"text":"那其中一個部分"},{"start":945.7199999999999,"end":946.7199999999999,"text":"就是有點類似委員"},{"start":946.7199999999999,"end":947.7199999999999,"text":"這樣講的"},{"start":947.7199999999999,"end":948.7199999999999,"text":"當然因為我們的食品"},{"start":948.76,"end":949.76,"text":"非常非常的多"},{"start":949.76,"end":950.76,"text":"大廠小廠"},{"start":950.76,"end":951.76,"text":"非常多種"},{"start":951.76,"end":952.76,"text":"但是我們會針對"},{"start":952.76,"end":953.76,"text":"像這樣子"},{"start":953.76,"end":954.76,"text":"比較大型的產業"},{"start":954.76,"end":955.76,"text":"或者是影響甚至"},{"start":955.76,"end":956.76,"text":"甚至是全國性的產業"},{"start":956.76,"end":958.76,"text":"那我們正在規劃"},{"start":958.76,"end":959.76,"text":"看能不能讓他從上游"},{"start":959.76,"end":960.76,"text":"一路下去的"},{"start":960.76,"end":961.76,"text":"那個整個編碼"},{"start":961.76,"end":962.76,"text":"可以串上來"},{"start":962.76,"end":963.76,"text":"就像剛剛委員所說的"},{"start":963.76,"end":964.76,"text":"這樣的例子"},{"start":964.76,"end":965.76,"text":"我理解 就是說"},{"start":965.76,"end":966.76,"text":"因為台灣其實有很多的"},{"start":966.76,"end":967.76,"text":"中小型的製造商"},{"start":967.76,"end":968.76,"text":"食品製造商"},{"start":968.76,"end":969.76,"text":"那我會認為說"},{"start":969.76,"end":970.76,"text":"針對於我們應該要"},{"start":970.76,"end":971.76,"text":"界定出來"},{"start":971.76,"end":972.76,"text":"哪些屬於高風險影響面"},{"start":972.76,"end":973.76,"text":"非常非常大的"},{"start":973.76,"end":974.76,"text":"它一定要具備"},{"start":974.76,"end":975.76,"text":"這樣子的功能"},{"start":975.76,"end":976.76,"text":"因為它可能就是"},{"start":976.76,"end":977.76,"text":"很多食物品"},{"start":977.8,"end":978.8,"text":"這部分"},{"start":978.8,"end":979.8,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":979.8,"end":980.8,"text":"謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T09:58:30.856923+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T09:58:32.803077+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們先請國發基金的執秘。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T09:58:33.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T09:58:36.493333+08:00","text":"請國發會汪執行秘書。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T09:58:44.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T09:58:44.850000+08:00","text":"執秘你好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T09:58:45.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T09:59:11.920000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，我剛才聽到陳昭姿委員有問關於曠世智能獲得國發基金投資的事情，我想我們還是必須要把事實講清楚、說明白，不能讓它變成一個政治攻擊或是造謠的場域，所以我想問一下，針對這一筆2,000萬的資金，據我所理解的，是國發基金取得公司股權的投資，這不是補助案，對嗎？對。好。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T09:59:12.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T09:59:22.466667+08:00","text":"這個公司是依公開的創業天使投資方案來申請，它應該有經過外部專家依既定的程序來審議，對嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T09:59:22.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T09:59:26.010000+08:00","text":"然後由民間的投資人共同來投資，對吧？是的。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T09:59:26.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T09:59:35.680000+08:00","text":"所以外界所稱的兩次投資其實是同一次的現金增資，國發基金其實後續根本沒有再投入，對嗎？對。好。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T09:59:36.541053+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T09:59:53.448571+08:00","text":"再來，根據公職人員利益衝突迴避法，其實真正要檢驗的應該是公職人員有沒有介入、有沒有關說、有沒有影響、有沒有影響審查，這個部分請再澄清一下，你們是不是有符合相關的規定呢？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-23T09:59:53.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:00:03.203333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，國發基金在做投資的時候都有遵照公職人員利益衝突迴避法的規定來辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:00:03.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:00:04.646667+08:00","text":"好，了解，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:00:05.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:00:28+08:00","text":"我想無論國發會也好、經濟部也好，其實都說了非常、非常多次，我認為這既然已經是非常、非常清楚的事情，不要拿想要抹黑的事情一再地造謠，只是為了自己的政治、圖利自己，所以我拜託民眾黨停止這樣子的造謠跟抹黑，讓公務員們依循制度可以好好做事，謝謝。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:00:28.573333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:00:30.706667+08:00","text":"接下來，我要請法務部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:00:32.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:00:33.584000+08:00","text":"請鄭部長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:00:36.555556+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:01:21.360000+08:00","text":"部長，我想請教一下，這次食藥署清查這30批油品，一開始不合格的是5批，後來又發現2個油品批號不合格，所以總共有7批問題油品，後來我們又持續地去抽驗、檢查，目前已經下架2,769公噸，還有五千多公噸的油品採預防性下架，也已經進入了刑事偵查，7月9號檢調已經去搜索中聯油品，同時也向法院聲請扣押中聯、福壽、福懋跟泰山四間公司名下的土地、房屋等不動產，對不對？是。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:01:21.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:01:42.131429+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，因為6月29號中聯公司收到了第三方的檢驗結果，6月30號通報了臺中市政府，可是我看到法務部7月22號的報告只有寫到7月2號召開平臺會議，7月9號才執行搜索。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:01:42.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:01:46.384000+08:00","text":"我想問一下，司法證據保全有沒有所謂的黃金時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:01:46.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:01:53.822400+08:00","text":"因為如果我們拖的時間比較久，是不是就有可能讓他們有時間可以整理、刪改內部的一些資料呢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:01:54.145714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:02:02.330526+08:00","text":"我們目前到底有沒有明確的對於重大食安事件在多久時間內就要即刻去進行搜索？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:02:02.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:02:38.306667+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，搜索的確是要做證據的蒐集跟保全，當然，食安法沒有……因為食安法是做行政管理，如果違反像是通報等等事項的，或是製造一些需負刑責的犯罪行為以外，並沒有就要如何證據保全做一個明確的規定，其實包括刑事訴訟法也是一樣，因為每個案件的案情不同，所以我們如果認為有搜索的必要就會向法院聲請搜索，這個部分當我們要去向法院聲請搜索都要做一些整備……","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:02:38.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:02:49.234667+08:00","text":"但是我剛剛有聽到你跟前面委員的詢答，其實大家也都非常關切嘛，因為可能到時候要做相關民事求償時就會求償無門嘛，所以才會希望大家可以積極地去做。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:02:49.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:02:54.595000+08:00","text":"我想請問一下，目前我們並沒有一個明確的判斷標準是要在幾個小時之內要……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:02:54.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:03:02.360000+08:00","text":"這個按照那個……我想要去搜索就必須要有相應的證據資料去證明有搜索的必要……","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:03:02.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:03:03.072000+08:00","text":"沒錯，我同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:03:03.288889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:03:07.858182+08:00","text":"以及我們要扣什麼東西，所以法院才有可能會核准嘛，才會有准票，因為是令狀的嘛。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:03:08.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:03:14.858182+08:00","text":"這次是在7月2號啟動平臺，7月3號立案，我們7月9號就去搜第一次了。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:03:15.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:03:22.706667+08:00","text":"其實7月6號我們專案小組有到廠裡面去調取相關資料……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:03:23.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:03:23.949091+08:00","text":"所以7月6號已經去調相關資料？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:03:24.312727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:03:37.865714+08:00","text":"調相關資料，但是調相關資料後要不要做怎樣的運用，檢察官會依照他們的偵查策略去規劃，我們昨天也搜索第二次了。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:03:38.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:03:38.480000+08:00","text":"好，瞭解。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:03:38.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:04:01.427692+08:00","text":"我想提醒一下，食安法第四十九條同時規範了故意跟過失，這兩個的刑責差距其實非常大，現在我們必須要去釐清的不只是油品的苯駢芘有沒有超標，而是要去查業者知道了之後到底是怎麼做的，因為如果是尚未確認原因，還是在合理的期間去複驗，他可能涉及的是過失嘛，對不對？","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:04:01.889231+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:04:11.870000+08:00","text":"但如果是已經知道油品有問題，可是還出貨販售，就應該不是過失了，而是涉及故意犯罪。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:04:12.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:04:16.932500+08:00","text":"所以我想請問一下部長，我們是不是會就這個方面去做調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:04:17.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:04:55.910000+08:00","text":"我想檢察官應該會針對這個部分，的確委員關心的這個問題也是檢察官要努力積極去蒐證的，因為食安法的規定是有危害之虞，應該是第七條第五項，我忘了確定的條文，但條文的規定是有危害之虞時，業者就有通報的義務，針對這個部分，如果他違反通報義務，還繼續出貨，這樣是不是故意犯，我想檢察官會積極地蒐集事證來做事實的認定。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:04:55.910000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:04:56.910000+08:00","text":"好，瞭解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:04:56.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:05:15.033333+08:00","text":"第三個，這也是一個提醒，因為後來又查到有漏報的情形，原本是29批，後來又發現其實是30批，因為你們的報告只提到是否有延遲通報，但其實已經不是延遲通報，還有漏報、少報、假報的問題，這個是不是可以去調查？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:05:15.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:05:25.969231+08:00","text":"如果業者明知資料不實，卻還是提供給主管機關或者是下游業者，是否涉及刑法的登載不實罪或行使不實文書罪，甚至是詐欺等等？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:05:26.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:05:29.073333+08:00","text":"這些是否都已經納入檢察官調查的範圍呢？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:05:29.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:05:52.990000+08:00","text":"這個一定會納入，我想檢察官偵查犯罪會釐清各項的犯罪行為，就像委員關心的，他是故意蓋牌嘛，就是明知有這個疑慮或者是已經確定有了卻還蓋牌不講，然後照常出貨，我想這個部分檢察官會全力偵辦，如果有的話，我們會依這個犯罪事實來起訴求刑。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:05:53.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:05:53.906667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:05:55.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:05:56.137143+08:00","text":"接下來我請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:05:58.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:05:59.880000+08:00","text":"請林次長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:06:02.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:06:02.613333+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:06:03.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:06:03.780000+08:00","text":"次長早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:06:04.851429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:06:35.177143+08:00","text":"這個修正草案今天有可能會通過行政院院會嘛，這就會是我們十年來再一次的針對食安進行一個新的規範，這一次會增加源頭管理的次數，以及一定規模的業者要自己設置實驗室，這個勢必要跟業者、學校還有市場及民眾好好做溝通，我自己今天也會開座談會，會邀請家長、相關團體、醫師、食安專家等對這個部分來做討論，我現在想要針對幾個問題來跟次長討論。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:06:35.781538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:06:57.860000+08:00","text":"我們以御飯糰的食安把關為例，據我所知，現在從原料到門市上架大概是五層，流程上就是從原料、進貨、HACCP、成品放行以及最後的物流跟門市，目前基本上就是五層，如果加上政府的抽驗，現在是六層，對嗎？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:06:58.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:07:06.260000+08:00","text":"如果以委員這邊所提到的，我們有這些不同層次的把關，當然不同的食品或原料還有一些不同的標準。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:07:06.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:07:14.193333+08:00","text":"沒錯，同意，我現在就是以御飯糰為例，我想要比較修法前跟修法後到底會有什麼樣的改變。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:07:15.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:07:26.114286+08:00","text":"如果根據這個修法草案，針對油品的部分是每一批都要自主送驗，第一層下游的廠商也要從現在的半年一次提高成每季檢驗，對嗎？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:07:26.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:07:29.900000+08:00","text":"所以就會增加到大概六至七層的關卡，是嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:07:30.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:08:23.389091+08:00","text":"我們現在是這樣，在現行的食安法裡面，這些上游的食品業者、油脂廠之前就像委員這邊所提到的，半年就要自主檢驗一次，我們現在在新的修法裡面還會再增加符合一定類別及規模者，譬如像這一次的油脂，大概就只有幾家公司在做，然後這幾家的市占都非常多，這種大型的油脂廠，第一個部分，我們會要求在一定規模之上的要去建立自己的實驗室；第二個部分，這個實驗室要經過認證；第三個，像這一次遇到他們有些送驗之後沒有即時通報，所以我們在新的修法裡面，不但是這個廠商被我們要求要自己做檢驗，同時當廠商發現他的報告有問題，或者是他委託的，不論是他自己的實驗室或是委託的第三方驗證機構，發現有問題也都要通報。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:08:23.702222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:08:41.298182+08:00","text":"另外一個部分就是我們過去在食安法的規定是地方主管機關「得」去做，我們現在會加強針對某一些廠商，像這一類一旦有問題就會影響全國性的廠商，我們會要求「應」增加相關的檢驗頻次，訂上去，他必須要去做檢驗。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:08:41.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:08:43.337143+08:00","text":"好，謝謝次長的回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:08:43.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:06.338182+08:00","text":"我想就算我們增加檢驗的次數，如果我們沒有去強化這些通報機制，這個東西就算檢驗了，他沒有送出來，我們還是不會知道，而且地方政府平時的查核頻率、抽驗項目，如果沒有及早地去做、規律地去做，其實我們還是沒有辦法解決這個問題。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:06.805714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:15.270000+08:00","text":"剛剛我聽到次長的回復，在這一次的修法裡面會針對這些項目、針對這次的一些漏洞，非常明確地去訂定。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:15.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:23.393333+08:00","text":"接下來我就想要請教次長，因為我們剛剛講24小時要通報，可是這24小時通報到底是誰通報？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:23.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:25.988571+08:00","text":"因為你們有講是雙軌制嘛，對不對？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:26.274286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:28.274286+08:00","text":"對，廠商跟驗證機構。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:28.274286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:29.274286+08:00","text":"實驗室？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:28.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:29.360000+08:00","text":"對，檢驗實驗室。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:29.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:33.435000+08:00","text":"首先第一個問題想要先請教，24小時是從什麼時間開始起算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:33.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:34.310000+08:00","text":"是實驗室……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:34.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:36.310000+08:00","text":"他們發現有問題，報告知悉。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:36.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:38.060000+08:00","text":"實驗室發現……知悉。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:38.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:41.360000+08:00","text":"等一下，我先釐清一下，因為會有幾個斷點，我想先釐清。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:41.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:09:50.433333+08:00","text":"是實驗室的儀器發現有問題，還是實驗室內部完成複核，還是正式的檢驗報告出具的時候，到底在哪一個時間點開始起算24小時？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:09:50.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:10:03.266667+08:00","text":"我覺得這個時間點要寫得非常非常明確，不然大家就會說他的認定是某個時間之後才開始算24小時，到時候就是吵不完，所以我們是不是可以在這個24小時上面非常明確地訂定出來呢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:10:03.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:10:10.266667+08:00","text":"我們接下來會在規定裡面寫到出具報告，等於是他蓋了章，正式將這個報告出去就要送出來……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:10:10.266667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:10:11.266667+08:00","text":"正式報告出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:10:10.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:10:18.440000+08:00","text":"這一次我們發現相關的廠商有延遲通報，也是從他什麼時候送驗、什麼時候報告出來發現他延遲了非常多天。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:10:18.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:10:37.528889+08:00","text":"對，所以這個部分接下來應該就會寫到規定裡，我也希望，在這個正式檢驗報告出具之後，他都應該要儘快地告訴大家，如果有問題的話，他會採取哪一些停產、封存，甚至是停止出貨的措施，這個部分是不是也可以要求呢？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:10:37.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:10:55.013333+08:00","text":"其實原來食安法裡面就有，現行食安法第七條第五項規定「食品業者於發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞時，應即主動停止製造、加工、販賣及辦理回收，並通報直轄市、縣（市）主管機關」，這一次我們會把時間訂定得更清楚一點。好的。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:10:55.791111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:11:14.429091+08:00","text":"再來就是雙軌通報的部分，我也想要再釐清，因為我們講雙軌通報，可能就會有人覺得沒關係，反正實驗室應該會通報，業者可能就沒有通報，所以我覺得這個部分也要去強化，兩邊都要有責任，兩邊都必須負起這個工作，不然就變成大家會覺得沒關係，反正別人會通報，如果沒有通報也是別人的問題，我覺得這是絕對不可以的。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:11:14.853333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:11:20.408889+08:00","text":"因為對兩邊都有要求他們要通報，所以反而變成任何一方要是有delay，他們會有很大的壓力。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:11:21.631111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:11:38.920000+08:00","text":"再來還有一個「非追不可」的問題我也想請教，因為中聯油品原本我們查到是29批嘛，第30批是因為宜蘭縣政府衛生單位反向追查的時候才發現還有一批314-1150401的油品並沒有列入原本申報的……","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:11:39.893333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:11:40.226667+08:00","text":"29批裡面。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:11:40.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:11:53.060000+08:00","text":"對，油品清冊，所以最後才會變成30批，因為他們沒有申報，所以食藥署又再去罰了他們，現在應該已經累計裁罰了1億7,120萬嘛。是。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:11:53.845714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:12:05.460000+08:00","text":"我想要問一下，第30批在「非追不可」的系統裡面到底有沒有資料、有沒有登錄、什麼時間登錄的、內容又包含什麼，我們到底有沒有掌握到？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:12:06.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:12:38.306667+08:00","text":"報告委員，有關於這個事情，我們當時對於中聯的要求就是4到6月的所有批次要請他報上來，4到6月的所有批次在報的時候，後來發現他漏報了0401這一批，可是我們在「非追」這一邊，其實我們有發現的是0629這一批，所以當時我們在這裡面，廠商事實上是……後來我們發現他們漏報0401，但我們那時候有撈到0630那一批。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:12:39.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:12:45.306667+08:00","text":"好，所以看起來就是上下游廠商大家掌握的資訊是不一致的嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:12:46.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:13:04.497143+08:00","text":"也跟委員報告一下，我們「非追」的系統過去事實上就是從廠商這邊，然後出貨到比方說這一次到泰山、福懋、福壽，這邊我們有「非追」的部分，我們這一次修法會對於後續再往下追的，比方以這一次來講，從泰山、福懋、福壽再往下的這個部分，我們會再往下撈。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:13:04.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:13:15.568889+08:00","text":"好，我這邊也提供一個參考啦，因為我自己之前也曾經在食品業待了四年，我在外商的食品業公司，所以我也希望可以提供美國的制度作為參考。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:13:16.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:13:48.720000+08:00","text":"美國制度裡面有一個叫做traceability的追溯批號制度，就是食品在首次包裝之後，接收或經過加工混合重新包裝之後，每一次的轉換都必須建立所謂的延續批號，該批號必須跟相關的生產、收貨、出貨資料去做一些連結，所以不會只有製造商保存一張總清冊，而是供應鏈的不同業者分別會針對自己所發生的事件來保存相關的資料，所以上下游的資料就可以去對齊，我們就比較能夠去溯源啦！","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:13:50.265455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:13:53.608889+08:00","text":"次長，在這次的修法上是不是也會針對這個部分去做調整？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:13:53.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:14:20.560000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，這個部分其實就在我們未來的一些辦法裡面，因為這一次除了修母法之外，我們未來對一些子法規也會去做修正，其中一個部分就是有點類似委員這樣講的，當然，因為我們的食品種類非常非常非常多，大廠、小廠非常多種，我們會針對像這樣比較大型的產業，或者是影響甚鉅甚至全國性的產業，我們正在規劃看能不能從上游一路下去的整個編碼可以串上來，就像剛剛委員所說這樣的例子。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:14:20.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:14:33.360000+08:00","text":"我理解，因為臺灣其實有很多中小型的食品製造商，我認為我們應該要界定出來哪些屬於高風險、影響面非常非常大的，就一定要具備這樣的功能，因為他可能就是很多食品生產的原物料。是。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-07-23T10:14:34.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:14:35.466667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:14:35.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:14:36.550000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:14:37.050000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:14:40.192857+08:00","text":"接下來請林倩綺委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":459,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（9時58分）謝謝主席，我們先請國發基金的執秘。"],["主席：請國發會汪執行秘書。"],["張委員雅琳：執秘你好。我想請教一下，我剛才聽到陳昭姿委員有問關於曠世智能獲得國發基金投資的事情，我想我們還是必須要把事實講清楚、說明白，不能讓它變成一個政治攻擊或是造謠的場域，所以我想問一下，針對這一筆2,000萬的資金，據我所理解的，是國發基金取得公司股權的投資，這不是補助案，對嗎？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：對。"],["張委員雅琳：好。這個公司是依公開的創業天使投資方案來申請，它應該有經過外部專家依既定的程序來審議，對嗎？然後由民間的投資人共同來投資，對吧？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：所以外界所稱的兩次投資其實是同一次的現金增資，國發基金其實後續根本沒有再投入，對嗎？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：對。"],["張委員雅琳：好。再來，根據公職人員利益衝突迴避法，其實真正要檢驗的應該是公職人員有沒有介入、有沒有關說、有沒有影響、有沒有影響審查，這個部分請再澄清一下，你們是不是有符合相關的規定呢？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：跟委員報告，國發基金在做投資的時候都有遵照公職人員利益衝突迴避法的規定來辦理。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解，謝謝。我想無論國發會也好、經濟部也好，其實都說了非常、非常多次，我認為這既然已經是非常、非常清楚的事情，不要拿想要抹黑的事情一再地造謠，只是為了自己的政治、圖利自己，所以我拜託民眾黨停止這樣子的造謠跟抹黑，讓公務員們依循制度可以好好做事，謝謝。","接下來，我要請法務部。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["張委員雅琳：部長，我想請教一下，這次食藥署清查這30批油品，一開始不合格的是5批，後來又發現2個油品批號不合格，所以總共有7批問題油品，後來我們又持續地去抽驗、檢查，目前已經下架2,769公噸，還有五千多公噸的油品採預防性下架，也已經進入了刑事偵查，7月9號檢調已經去搜索中聯油品，同時也向法院聲請扣押中聯、福壽、福懋跟泰山四間公司名下的土地、房屋等不動產，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我想請教一下，因為6月29號中聯公司收到了第三方的檢驗結果，6月30號通報了臺中市政府，可是我看到法務部7月22號的報告只有寫到7月2號召開平臺會議，7月9號才執行搜索。我想問一下，司法證據保全有沒有所謂的黃金時間？因為如果我們拖的時間比較久，是不是就有可能讓他們有時間可以整理、刪改內部的一些資料呢？我們目前到底有沒有明確的對於重大食安事件在多久時間內就要即刻去進行搜索？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，搜索的確是要做證據的蒐集跟保全，當然，食安法沒有……因為食安法是做行政管理，如果違反像是通報等等事項的，或是製造一些需負刑責的犯罪行為以外，並沒有就要如何證據保全做一個明確的規定，其實包括刑事訴訟法也是一樣，因為每個案件的案情不同，所以我們如果認為有搜索的必要就會向法院聲請搜索，這個部分當我們要去向法院聲請搜索都要做一些整備……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我剛剛有聽到你跟前面委員的詢答，其實大家也都非常關切嘛，因為可能到時候要做相關民事求償時就會求償無門嘛，所以才會希望大家可以積極地去做。我想請問一下，目前我們並沒有一個明確的判斷標準是要在幾個小時之內要……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個按照那個……我想要去搜索就必須要有相應的證據資料去證明有搜索的必要……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，我同意。"],["鄭部長銘謙：以及我們要扣什麼東西，所以法院才有可能會核准嘛，才會有准票，因為是令狀的嘛。這次是在7月2號啟動平臺，7月3號立案，我們7月9號就去搜第一次了。其實7月6號我們專案小組有到廠裡面去調取相關資料……"],["張委員雅琳：所以7月6號已經去調相關資料？"],["鄭部長銘謙：調相關資料，但是調相關資料後要不要做怎樣的運用，檢察官會依照他們的偵查策略去規劃，我們昨天也搜索第二次了。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。我想提醒一下，食安法第四十九條同時規範了故意跟過失，這兩個的刑責差距其實非常大，現在我們必須要去釐清的不只是油品的苯駢芘有沒有超標，而是要去查業者知道了之後到底是怎麼做的，因為如果是尚未確認原因，還是在合理的期間去複驗，他可能涉及的是過失嘛，對不對？但如果是已經知道油品有問題，可是還出貨販售，就應該不是過失了，而是涉及故意犯罪。所以我想請問一下部長，我們是不是會就這個方面去做調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想檢察官應該會針對這個部分，的確委員關心的這個問題也是檢察官要努力積極去蒐證的，因為食安法的規定是有危害之虞，應該是第七條第五項，我忘了確定的條文，但條文的規定是有危害之虞時，業者就有通報的義務，針對這個部分，如果他違反通報義務，還繼續出貨，這樣是不是故意犯，我想檢察官會積極地蒐集事證來做事實的認定。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。","第三個，這也是一個提醒，因為後來又查到有漏報的情形，原本是29批，後來又發現其實是30批，因為你們的報告只提到是否有延遲通報，但其實已經不是延遲通報，還有漏報、少報、假報的問題，這個是不是可以去調查？如果業者明知資料不實，卻還是提供給主管機關或者是下游業者，是否涉及刑法的登載不實罪或行使不實文書罪，甚至是詐欺等等？這些是否都已經納入檢察官調查的範圍呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個一定會納入，我想檢察官偵查犯罪會釐清各項的犯罪行為，就像委員關心的，他是故意蓋牌嘛，就是明知有這個疑慮或者是已經確定有了卻還蓋牌不講，然後照常出貨，我想這個部分檢察官會全力偵辦，如果有的話，我們會依這個犯罪事實來起訴求刑。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。接下來我請次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員早。"],["張委員雅琳：次長早。這個修正草案今天有可能會通過行政院院會嘛，這就會是我們十年來再一次的針對食安進行一個新的規範，這一次會增加源頭管理的次數，以及一定規模的業者要自己設置實驗室，這個勢必要跟業者、學校還有市場及民眾好好做溝通，我自己今天也會開座談會，會邀請家長、相關團體、醫師、食安專家等對這個部分來做討論，我現在想要針對幾個問題來跟次長討論。","我們以御飯糰的食安把關為例，據我所知，現在從原料到門市上架大概是五層，流程上就是從原料、進貨、HACCP、成品放行以及最後的物流跟門市，目前基本上就是五層，如果加上政府的抽驗，現在是六層，對嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：如果以委員這邊所提到的，我們有這些不同層次的把關，當然不同的食品或原料還有一些不同的標準。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，同意，我現在就是以御飯糰為例，我想要比較修法前跟修法後到底會有什麼樣的改變。如果根據這個修法草案，針對油品的部分是每一批都要自主送驗，第一層下游的廠商也要從現在的半年一次提高成每季檢驗，對嗎？所以就會增加到大概六至七層的關卡，是嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們現在是這樣，在現行的食安法裡面，這些上游的食品業者、油脂廠之前就像委員這邊所提到的，半年就要自主檢驗一次，我們現在在新的修法裡面還會再增加符合一定類別及規模者，譬如像這一次的油脂，大概就只有幾家公司在做，然後這幾家的市占都非常多，這種大型的油脂廠，第一個部分，我們會要求在一定規模之上的要去建立自己的實驗室；第二個部分，這個實驗室要經過認證；第三個，像這一次遇到他們有些送驗之後沒有即時通報，所以我們在新的修法裡面，不但是這個廠商被我們要求要自己做檢驗，同時當廠商發現他的報告有問題，或者是他委託的，不論是他自己的實驗室或是委託的第三方驗證機構，發現有問題也都要通報。","另外一個部分就是我們過去在食安法的規定是地方主管機關「得」去做，我們現在會加強針對某一些廠商，像這一類一旦有問題就會影響全國性的廠商，我們會要求「應」增加相關的檢驗頻次，訂上去，他必須要去做檢驗。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝次長的回答。我想就算我們增加檢驗的次數，如果我們沒有去強化這些通報機制，這個東西就算檢驗了，他沒有送出來，我們還是不會知道，而且地方政府平時的查核頻率、抽驗項目，如果沒有及早地去做、規律地去做，其實我們還是沒有辦法解決這個問題。剛剛我聽到次長的回復，在這一次的修法裡面會針對這些項目、針對這次的一些漏洞，非常明確地去訂定。","接下來我就想要請教次長，因為我們剛剛講24小時要通報，可是這24小時通報到底是誰通報？因為你們有講是雙軌制嘛，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：對，廠商跟驗證機構。"],["張委員雅琳：實驗室？"],["林次長靜儀：對，檢驗實驗室。"],["張委員雅琳：首先第一個問題想要先請教，24小時是從什麼時間開始起算？是實驗室……"],["林次長靜儀：他們發現有問題，報告知悉。"],["張委員雅琳：實驗室發現……"],["林次長靜儀：知悉。"],["張委員雅琳：等一下，我先釐清一下，因為會有幾個斷點，我想先釐清。是實驗室的儀器發現有問題，還是實驗室內部完成複核，還是正式的檢驗報告出具的時候，到底在哪一個時間點開始起算24小時？我覺得這個時間點要寫得非常非常明確，不然大家就會說他的認定是某個時間之後才開始算24小時，到時候就是吵不完，所以我們是不是可以在這個24小時上面非常明確地訂定出來呢？"],["林次長靜儀：我們接下來會在規定裡面寫到出具報告，等於是他蓋了章，正式將這個報告出去就要送出來……"],["張委員雅琳：正式報告出來？"],["林次長靜儀：這一次我們發現相關的廠商有延遲通報，也是從他什麼時候送驗、什麼時候報告出來發現他延遲了非常多天。"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以這個部分接下來應該就會寫到規定裡，我也希望，在這個正式檢驗報告出具之後，他都應該要儘快地告訴大家，如果有問題的話，他會採取哪一些停產、封存，甚至是停止出貨的措施，這個部分是不是也可以要求呢？"],["林次長靜儀：其實原來食安法裡面就有，現行食安法第七條第五項規定「食品業者於發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞時，應即主動停止製造、加工、販賣及辦理回收，並通報直轄市、縣（市）主管機關」，這一次我們會把時間訂定得更清楚一點。"],["張委員雅琳：好的。再來就是雙軌通報的部分，我也想要再釐清，因為我們講雙軌通報，可能就會有人覺得沒關係，反正實驗室應該會通報，業者可能就沒有通報，所以我覺得這個部分也要去強化，兩邊都要有責任，兩邊都必須負起這個工作，不然就變成大家會覺得沒關係，反正別人會通報，如果沒有通報也是別人的問題，我覺得這是絕對不可以的。"],["林次長靜儀：因為對兩邊都有要求他們要通報，所以反而變成任何一方要是有delay，他們會有很大的壓力。"],["張委員雅琳：再來還有一個「非追不可」的問題我也想請教，因為中聯油品原本我們查到是29批嘛，第30批是因為宜蘭縣政府衛生單位反向追查的時候才發現還有一批314-1150401的油品並沒有列入原本申報的……"],["林次長靜儀：29批裡面。"],["張委員雅琳：對，油品清冊，所以最後才會變成30批，因為他們沒有申報，所以食藥署又再去罰了他們，現在應該已經累計裁罰了1億7,120萬嘛。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我想要問一下，第30批在「非追不可」的系統裡面到底有沒有資料、有沒有登錄、什麼時間登錄的、內容又包含什麼，我們到底有沒有掌握到？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，有關於這個事情，我們當時對於中聯的要求就是4到6月的所有批次要請他報上來，4到6月的所有批次在報的時候，後來發現他漏報了0401這一批，可是我們在「非追」這一邊，其實我們有發現的是0629這一批，所以當時我們在這裡面，廠商事實上是……後來我們發現他們漏報0401，但我們那時候有撈到0630那一批。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以看起來就是上下游廠商大家掌握的資訊是不一致的嘛，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：也跟委員報告一下，我們「非追」的系統過去事實上就是從廠商這邊，然後出貨到比方說這一次到泰山、福懋、福壽，這邊我們有「非追」的部分，我們這一次修法會對於後續再往下追的，比方以這一次來講，從泰山、福懋、福壽再往下的這個部分，我們會再往下撈。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我這邊也提供一個參考啦，因為我自己之前也曾經在食品業待了四年，我在外商的食品業公司，所以我也希望可以提供美國的制度作為參考。美國制度裡面有一個叫做traceability的追溯批號制度，就是食品在首次包裝之後，接收或經過加工混合重新包裝之後，每一次的轉換都必須建立所謂的延續批號，該批號必須跟相關的生產、收貨、出貨資料去做一些連結，所以不會只有製造商保存一張總清冊，而是供應鏈的不同業者分別會針對自己所發生的事件來保存相關的資料，所以上下游的資料就可以去對齊，我們就比較能夠去溯源啦！次長，在這次的修法上是不是也會針對這個部分去做調整？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員，這個部分其實就在我們未來的一些辦法裡面，因為這一次除了修母法之外，我們未來對一些子法規也會去做修正，其中一個部分就是有點類似委員這樣講的，當然，因為我們的食品種類非常非常非常多，大廠、小廠非常多種，我們會針對像這樣比較大型的產業，或者是影響甚鉅甚至全國性的產業，我們正在規劃看能不能從上游一路下去的整個編碼可以串上來，就像剛剛委員所說這樣的例子。"],["張委員雅琳：我理解，因為臺灣其實有很多中小型的食品製造商，我認為我們應該要界定出來哪些屬於高風險、影響面非常非常大的，就一定要具備這樣的功能，因為他可能就是很多食品生產的原物料。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-26","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","張雅琳","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","范雲","許宇甄","洪毓祥","賴士葆","洪孟楷","劉書彬","林沛祥","沈發惠","蔡其昌","蔡春綢","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2026-07-23"],"gazette_id":"1156502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、司法院、行政院消費者保護處、衛生福利部食品藥物管\n理署就「中聯致癌油事件之偵辦調查、消費者權益及食安監管」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請監察院秘書長、法務部部長、經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、銓敘部部長就「現行\n公職人員利益衝突迴避暨離職公務員旋轉門機制之執行成效與法制缺失」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1156502_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}