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謝謝我們主席翁昭偉"},{"start":11.200000000000001,"end":13.36,"text":"那麼沒有真相不應急著上架"},{"start":13.36,"end":16.12,"text":"是我這次對這個油品 毒油"},{"start":16.12,"end":18.92,"text":"這個事件的一致的立場跟態度"},{"start":18.92,"end":21.32,"text":"所以首先我要請教"},{"start":21.32,"end":23.66,"text":"這門衛福部 那現在是次長"},{"start":23.66,"end":24.66,"text":"你次長"},{"start":24.66,"end":27.66,"text":"委員好 次長好"},{"start":27.66,"end":30.66,"text":"那麼本席首先要提出不僅是本席"},{"start":30.66,"end":33.66,"text":"而且也是很多地方首長的這個疑問"},{"start":33.66,"end":35.66,"text":"那麼中聯有指事件的真相"},{"start":35.66,"end":37.66,"text":"還沒有完全釐清"},{"start":37.66,"end":39.66,"text":"那麼衛福部目前急著要讓"},{"start":39.66,"end":42.66,"text":"19批的這個油品來重新上架"},{"start":42.66,"end":44.66,"text":"那這個你們的食藥署表示"},{"start":44.66,"end":47.66,"text":"中聯今年4月到6月"},{"start":47.66,"end":50.66,"text":"生產的30批大豆沙拉油當中"},{"start":50.66,"end":52.66,"text":"10批經過上漲的"},{"start":52.66,"end":55.66,"text":"19批經過上油油品"},{"start":55.66,"end":58.66,"text":"上油的原油還有下油的產品檢驗"},{"start":58.66,"end":61.66,"text":"以及批次流向的核對以後"},{"start":61.66,"end":63.66,"text":"確認符合標準"},{"start":63.66,"end":65.66,"text":"因此可以重新上架"},{"start":65.66,"end":68.66,"text":"但是本席是尊重這個科學的檢驗"},{"start":68.66,"end":71.66,"text":"只是食安的這個問題我們必須要"},{"start":71.66,"end":73.66,"text":"有三個我想民眾都很關心的"},{"start":73.66,"end":74.66,"text":"一個基本問題"},{"start":74.66,"end":76.66,"text":"那麼第一一直大家在問的是"},{"start":76.66,"end":79.66,"text":"請問這個汙染源到底是在哪裡"},{"start":79.66,"end":80.66,"text":"那麼第二個部分是"},{"start":80.66,"end":83.66,"text":"為什麼中聯的流樣檢驗報告"},{"start":83.66,"end":85.66,"text":"跟下油產品的檢驗結果"},{"start":85.66,"end":87.66,"text":"出現了這麼大的落差"},{"start":87.66,"end":89.66,"text":"那麼第三個部分是"},{"start":89.66,"end":91.66,"text":"那業者有沒有隱匿造假"},{"start":91.66,"end":93.66,"text":"還有政府的三級評管制度"},{"start":93.66,"end":96.66,"text":"又是哪一個環節出的問題"},{"start":96.66,"end":99.66,"text":"那麼中央急著要重新上架"},{"start":99.66,"end":103.66,"text":"那麼真正執行面對群眾的這個地方政府"},{"start":103.66,"end":106.66,"text":"怎麼向民眾來保證這一定是安全的"},{"start":106.66,"end":109.66,"text":"那民眾又憑什麼可以恢復信心"},{"start":109.66,"end":112.66,"text":"那剛才本席所講的幾點都還沒有釐清"},{"start":112.66,"end":115.66,"text":"所以本席請教次長先第一個問題就是"},{"start":115.66,"end":118.66,"text":"那麼衛福部市已經完全排除"},{"start":118.66,"end":122.66,"text":"批次困遊以及製程交叉汙染的風險"},{"start":122.66,"end":125.66,"text":"那麼如果汙染的原因還沒有完全清楚"},{"start":125.66,"end":128.66,"text":"目前所取得的這個檢體的合格"},{"start":128.66,"end":132.66,"text":"或者是是不是可以百分之百的代表"},{"start":132.66,"end":135.66,"text":"整個下游的製品都安全"},{"start":135.66,"end":137.66,"text":"這個部分您要不要先做一個回應"},{"start":137.66,"end":139.66,"text":"好 謝謝委員"},{"start":139.66,"end":143.66,"text":"其實依照我們在食安法裡面對於有指相關的標準"},{"start":143.66,"end":145.66,"text":"這一次中聯當然他的那個"},{"start":145.66,"end":147.66,"text":"驗出來那個部分是超標"},{"start":147.66,"end":149.66,"text":"那但是對於各家遊品"},{"start":149.66,"end":151.66,"text":"所以我們後來處理的方式就是說"},{"start":151.66,"end":153.66,"text":"第一個我們發現中聯他每次"},{"start":153.66,"end":156.66,"text":"他之前通報給地方衛生局或者他自己的數字"},{"start":156.66,"end":158.66,"text":"他都說他是合格的"},{"start":158.66,"end":160.66,"text":"但是這個過程中一批一批發現他有問題"},{"start":160.66,"end":163.66,"text":"所以才會從四月份到六月份"},{"start":163.66,"end":165.66,"text":"我們全部先預防性下降"},{"start":165.66,"end":167.66,"text":"那這一次剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":167.66,"end":169.66,"text":"我們其中驗出來中聯這邊確定"},{"start":169.66,"end":171.66,"text":"不論是他的後來第二成廠商"},{"start":171.66,"end":174.66,"text":"或者是應該說其他福茂福壽或甚至南橋"},{"start":174.66,"end":176.66,"text":"驗到不合格的這幾個批次"},{"start":176.66,"end":178.66,"text":"我們是確定他就是一個不合格"},{"start":178.66,"end":179.66,"text":"所以他是一定要下架"},{"start":179.66,"end":182.66,"text":"而且現在接下來要啟動已經啟動回收"},{"start":182.66,"end":183.66,"text":"那再來要啟動銷毀"},{"start":183.66,"end":184.66,"text":"這是第一個部分"},{"start":184.66,"end":187.66,"text":"那第二個部分就是說這一次預防性的這三十"},{"start":187.66,"end":191.66,"text":"這全部的這三十批裡面我們取得了有流樣"},{"start":191.66,"end":193.66,"text":"這個流樣就是說從中聯一路下來"},{"start":193.66,"end":196.66,"text":"從中聯到福茂中聯到福壽中聯到泰山"},{"start":196.66,"end":199.66,"text":"這邊福茂福壽泰山的原油"},{"start":199.66,"end":200.66,"text":"他的流樣原油"},{"start":200.66,"end":203.66,"text":"也就是我們從他的第二成廠商這邊去取"},{"start":203.66,"end":205.66,"text":"那這個當然這裡面的檢體"},{"start":205.66,"end":207.66,"text":"我們去委託後續做檢查"},{"start":207.66,"end":209.66,"text":"那這邊目前這幾批油出來"},{"start":209.66,"end":212.66,"text":"他都符合我們在食安法裡面所規定的油脂"},{"start":212.66,"end":215.66,"text":"這個本便皮不得這個本便皮的那個標準"},{"start":215.66,"end":218.66,"text":"好所以這個部分是在目前現行法規裡面"},{"start":218.66,"end":219.66,"text":"這些是符合的"},{"start":219.66,"end":221.66,"text":"那剛剛所以本席這邊所講的"},{"start":221.66,"end":223.66,"text":"所以汙染到底是怎麼回事呢"},{"start":223.66,"end":227.66,"text":"我們這邊其實在當然在專家這邊會用汙染這個詞"},{"start":227.66,"end":228.66,"text":"不過再補充一下"},{"start":228.66,"end":232.66,"text":"其實這個部分就是其實在油品製造過程中"},{"start":232.66,"end":234.66,"text":"我們當然現在再委託第三方去做"},{"start":234.66,"end":237.66,"text":"中聯這邊在HACCP每一個製造節點"},{"start":237.66,"end":239.66,"text":"他應該加什麼進去做處理"},{"start":239.66,"end":241.66,"text":"是不是處理的不夠等等"},{"start":241.66,"end":243.66,"text":"這是專業上面正在做處理"},{"start":243.66,"end":247.66,"text":"好那我稍微就面臨一個專業跟民眾的認知"},{"start":247.66,"end":249.66,"text":"所以有落差的情況下"},{"start":249.66,"end":252.66,"text":"我想大家的這個對於目前你們思考"},{"start":252.66,"end":255.66,"text":"重新上架的這對油品是不是絕對的安全"},{"start":255.66,"end":257.65999999999997,"text":"我想這個民眾會有很大的疑慮"},{"start":257.65999999999997,"end":259.65999999999997,"text":"謝謝我再稍微說明一下就是說"},{"start":259.65999999999997,"end":263.65999999999997,"text":"第一個事情是這19P是我們現在拿到了原油樣本"},{"start":263.65999999999997,"end":266.65999999999997,"text":"從不是中聯的地方拿到原油樣本去做出來"},{"start":266.65999999999997,"end":267.65999999999997,"text":"他是符合標準"},{"start":267.65999999999997,"end":268.65999999999997,"text":"這是第一個事情"},{"start":268.65999999999997,"end":271.65999999999997,"text":"第二個事情我們事實上現在來講這個本便皮"},{"start":271.65999999999997,"end":273.65999999999997,"text":"目前認為就是他在製成過程中"},{"start":273.65999999999997,"end":275.65999999999997,"text":"他有好幾個HACCP的節點"},{"start":275.65999999999997,"end":278.65999999999997,"text":"他應該要能夠讓這個本便皮的濃度往下降"},{"start":278.66,"end":280.66,"text":"可是他在處理不當"},{"start":280.66,"end":283.66,"text":"本席講到這個全面性的問題是大家的疑慮"},{"start":283.66,"end":284.66,"text":"對民眾來講"},{"start":284.66,"end":288.66,"text":"他其實沒有必要去了解你這個所謂的專業上的問題"},{"start":288.66,"end":291.66,"text":"可是大家疑慮就是我原因都還不知道"},{"start":291.66,"end":293.66,"text":"那您剛才講的節點或斷點"},{"start":293.66,"end":296.66,"text":"或者是中間的一些可能性"},{"start":296.66,"end":299.66,"text":"我想民眾對於這其中會不會還有一些問題"},{"start":299.66,"end":300.66,"text":"其實是有一些疑慮的"},{"start":300.66,"end":303.66,"text":"所以中聯我們目前就是不會同意他復工"},{"start":303.66,"end":305.66,"text":"但是在目前我們驗到的這些"},{"start":305.66,"end":307.66,"text":"另外這19P他出來的這些產品"},{"start":307.66,"end":310.66,"text":"在我們現在驗到他的標準是符合的"},{"start":310.66,"end":314.66,"text":"好所以那目前整個供應鏈的誠信問題"},{"start":314.66,"end":315.66,"text":"其實還沒有完全釐清"},{"start":315.66,"end":318.66,"text":"那麼重新上架的這個標準"},{"start":318.66,"end":320.66,"text":"有沒有納入對於業者的誠信"},{"start":320.66,"end":322.66,"text":"聚成的管理跟追溯資料的可靠性"},{"start":322.66,"end":326.66,"text":"還是只是依您所講的重新檢驗合格"},{"start":326.66,"end":329.66,"text":"就可以跟整個食安事件全部切割"},{"start":329.66,"end":331.66,"text":"我想我們還是會全面性的去做"},{"start":331.66,"end":333.66,"text":"更未來在整個有品品質上面"},{"start":333.66,"end":336.66,"text":"還有相關這些大型廠商的責任上面"},{"start":336.66,"end":337.66,"text":"做更高的要求"},{"start":337.66,"end":339.66,"text":"那當然我們前面也會去做檢查"},{"start":339.66,"end":340.66,"text":"所以剛才本席所講的"},{"start":340.66,"end":342.66,"text":"目前業者的誠信聚成的管理"},{"start":342.66,"end":345.66,"text":"還有資料的追溯"},{"start":345.66,"end":348.66,"text":"是在你們的目前要重新上架的考量當中嗎"},{"start":348.66,"end":349.66,"text":"我們重新上架這邊"},{"start":349.66,"end":351.66,"text":"當然也先跟我們報告就是說"},{"start":351.66,"end":352.66,"text":"我們在之前對於"},{"start":352.66,"end":355.66,"text":"因為還是要強調中聯這邊驗到不合格的是"},{"start":355.66,"end":356.66,"text":"不可能上架了"},{"start":356.66,"end":358.66,"text":"而且我們接下來要行動消費"},{"start":358.66,"end":360.66,"text":"你們這如果上架不是太離譜了嗎"},{"start":360.66,"end":362.66,"text":"所以本席所講的是"},{"start":362.66,"end":365.66,"text":"你們現在重新上架的標準"},{"start":365.66,"end":368.66,"text":"似乎看起來就是重新抽驗是合格的"},{"start":368.66,"end":369.66,"text":"那本席剛才所講的"},{"start":369.66,"end":372.66,"text":"業者誠信聚成管理跟追溯資料的可靠性"},{"start":372.66,"end":374.66,"text":"你們目前做了嗎"},{"start":374.66,"end":375.66,"text":"我們現在正在進行"},{"start":375.66,"end":377.66,"text":"那當然中聯這邊正在進行進行調查"},{"start":377.66,"end":379.66,"text":"是不是這個部分"},{"start":379.66,"end":382.66,"text":"如果沒有很清楚的確認"},{"start":382.66,"end":385.66,"text":"這批有品先不要上架"},{"start":385.66,"end":388.66,"text":"要不然其實消費者對於這些有品"},{"start":388.66,"end":391.66,"text":"有沒有可能有毒可能還是會有疑慮"},{"start":391.66,"end":395.66,"text":"報告委員這19批檢驗合格"},{"start":395.66,"end":397.66,"text":"這是我剛才的問題就是說"},{"start":397.66,"end":400.66,"text":"你們目前唯一的要素就是檢驗合格"},{"start":400.66,"end":404.66,"text":"可是剛剛本席也提出來好幾個要素"},{"start":404.66,"end":407.66,"text":"你們應該在同時做一個處理"},{"start":407.66,"end":409.66,"text":"要不然你說未來未來未來"},{"start":409.66,"end":411.66,"text":"但是大家的疑慮就是已經有發生的"},{"start":411.66,"end":413.66,"text":"那個是針對目前的獨有"},{"start":413.66,"end":415.66,"text":"但是大家的疑慮就是說"},{"start":415.66,"end":417.66,"text":"那到底還有哪一些是可能的"},{"start":417.66,"end":418.66,"text":"可能性的"},{"start":418.66,"end":421.66,"text":"那你們目前的一個檢驗就只有依據檢驗合格"},{"start":421.66,"end":423.66,"text":"但是本席剛才所講的幾個要素"},{"start":423.66,"end":425.66,"text":"本席在這邊也強烈建議"},{"start":425.66,"end":426.66,"text":"你們應該同時做"},{"start":426.66,"end":428.66,"text":"請聽懂這個問題好不好"},{"start":428.66,"end":429.66,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":429.66,"end":432.66,"text":"最後是中央的這個採取分批上架"},{"start":432.66,"end":435.66,"text":"可是地方政府必須面對大量的品項"},{"start":435.66,"end":437.66,"text":"逐批來核對"},{"start":437.66,"end":440.66,"text":"那麼反覆下架上架的一個執行壓力"},{"start":440.66,"end":443.66,"text":"所以台北台中高雄等跨黨派的"},{"start":443.66,"end":445.66,"text":"縣市政府都表示"},{"start":445.66,"end":447.66,"text":"我們應該先把真相給釐清"},{"start":447.66,"end":449.66,"text":"確認食品安全無虞"},{"start":449.66,"end":451.66,"text":"然後才準上架"},{"start":451.66,"end":454.66,"text":"那麼本席認為中央現階段"},{"start":454.66,"end":457.66,"text":"沒有提供足以讓地方政府以及消費者"},{"start":457.66,"end":458.66,"text":"信服的完整資訊"},{"start":458.66,"end":460.66,"text":"那其實在過程當中"},{"start":460.66,"end":462.66,"text":"我看我們看到中央跟地方"},{"start":462.66,"end":464.66,"text":"大家都互推責任"},{"start":464.66,"end":466.66,"text":"那這個部分其實會引起"},{"start":466.66,"end":469.66,"text":"目前地方政府在執行上的一個困難"},{"start":469.66,"end":471.66,"text":"所以本席要求衛福部"},{"start":471.66,"end":474.66,"text":"不應該只有公布哪一些批次檢驗合格"},{"start":474.66,"end":477.66,"text":"還應該要公布完整的污染原因"},{"start":477.66,"end":480.66,"text":"採樣的方式檢驗的機構"},{"start":480.66,"end":482.66,"text":"上下游檢核的一個結果"},{"start":482.66,"end":483.66,"text":"流向清澈"},{"start":483.66,"end":485.66,"text":"以及重新上架之後"},{"start":485.66,"end":487.66,"text":"持續檢驗的"},{"start":487.66,"end":489.66,"text":"抽檢的責任跟追蹤機制"},{"start":489.66,"end":491.66,"text":"所以本席這邊提醒"},{"start":491.66,"end":493.66,"text":"食品安全不是只有你們所謂的檢驗"},{"start":493.66,"end":495.66,"text":"而是整個供應鏈的一個信任"},{"start":495.66,"end":497.66,"text":"資訊透明跟責任釐清"},{"start":497.66,"end":500.66,"text":"所以還是本席剛才所講的一致的立場"},{"start":500.66,"end":501.66,"text":"沒有真相"},{"start":501.66,"end":502.66,"text":"就不要急著上架"},{"start":502.66,"end":504.66,"text":"然後又重新上架"},{"start":504.66,"end":506.66,"text":"那只會讓地方政府其實"},{"start":506.66,"end":508.66,"text":"會承受很大的壓力"},{"start":508.66,"end":509.66,"text":"然後事情發生的時候"},{"start":509.66,"end":512.6600000000001,"text":"我們只有看到中央一直在推卸責任"},{"start":512.6600000000001,"end":514.6600000000001,"text":"本席已經先做提醒了"},{"start":514.6600000000001,"end":516.6600000000001,"text":"希望你們同步能夠針對"},{"start":516.6600000000001,"end":518.6600000000001,"text":"本席剛才建議的一些要素"},{"start":518.6600000000001,"end":520.6600000000001,"text":"都考量進去"},{"start":520.6600000000001,"end":521.6600000000001,"text":"那你們未來要怎麼做"},{"start":521.6600000000001,"end":522.6600000000001,"text":"我想在這次事件"},{"start":522.6600000000001,"end":523.6600000000001,"text":"應該有些檢討"},{"start":523.6600000000001,"end":524.6600000000001,"text":"但是對於民眾"},{"start":524.6600000000001,"end":526.6600000000001,"text":"目前的疑慮"},{"start":526.6600000000001,"end":528.6600000000001,"text":"本席提供了幾個要素"},{"start":528.6600000000001,"end":529.6600000000001,"text":"讓你們也是同步"},{"start":529.6600000000001,"end":531.6600000000001,"text":"可以更完整的去做一個處理"},{"start":531.66,"end":533.66,"text":"不過委員我還是要再強調一下"},{"start":533.66,"end":534.66,"text":"依照實案法"},{"start":534.66,"end":536.66,"text":"現行實案法第41條"},{"start":536.66,"end":537.66,"text":"直轄縣市主管機關"},{"start":537.66,"end":539.66,"text":"就是我們確保食品安全"},{"start":539.66,"end":542.66,"text":"本席一直講的是民眾的疑慮"},{"start":542.66,"end":543.66,"text":"民眾的疑慮"},{"start":543.66,"end":547.66,"text":"所以中央跟地方政府一起努力"},{"start":547.66,"end":549.66,"text":"是非常重要的事情"},{"start":549.66,"end":551.66,"text":"我想中央跟地方大家都在努力"},{"start":551.66,"end":554.66,"text":"包括民眾所提出的問題"},{"start":554.66,"end":556.66,"text":"其實也是我們可以參考的"},{"start":556.66,"end":557.66,"text":"一個很重要的要素"},{"start":557.66,"end":559.66,"text":"我們也會跟地方一起來要求"},{"start":559.66,"end":560.66,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":560.66,"end":562.66,"text":"那接下來本席要來詢問一下"},{"start":562.66,"end":565.66,"text":"有關於我們這一次的消費者的"},{"start":565.66,"end":568.66,"text":"消保處還有司法院"},{"start":568.66,"end":570.66,"text":"應該代表是中處長"},{"start":570.66,"end":572.66,"text":"還有林廳長"},{"start":572.66,"end":573.66,"text":"請中處長"},{"start":577.66,"end":578.66,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":578.66,"end":579.66,"text":"那次長您請回"},{"start":579.66,"end":580.66,"text":"市委員好"},{"start":580.66,"end":583.66,"text":"那兩位本席這邊請教一個"},{"start":583.66,"end":584.66,"text":"比較實際的問題"},{"start":584.66,"end":586.66,"text":"我想這次獨合事件發生"},{"start":586.66,"end":589.66,"text":"那麼所有的民眾應該很關心的"},{"start":589.66,"end":591.66,"text":"就是我們目前吃到的問題有"},{"start":591.66,"end":592.66,"text":"那要如何救濟"},{"start":592.66,"end":597.66,"text":"那也就是重大事件的一個集體救濟的問題"},{"start":597.66,"end":598.66,"text":"我想剛才幾位委員"},{"start":598.66,"end":601.66,"text":"當然也有一些你們回應"},{"start":601.66,"end":603.66,"text":"但是本席這邊要提到"},{"start":603.66,"end":606.66,"text":"這是本評比超標的事件"},{"start":606.66,"end":608.66,"text":"是典型的受害人數龐大"},{"start":608.66,"end":610.66,"text":"那麼個別的損害也很分散"},{"start":610.66,"end":612.66,"text":"那麼舉證也很困難的一個案件"},{"start":612.66,"end":615.66,"text":"那麼依照現行的消費者保護法的第50條"},{"start":615.66,"end":618.66,"text":"那麼消保團體提起團體訴訟"},{"start":618.66,"end":620.66,"text":"那麼原則上還是要先取得足夠的"},{"start":620.66,"end":623.66,"text":"消費者跟損害賠償的一個請求權"},{"start":623.66,"end":625.66,"text":"但是現在問題是"},{"start":625.66,"end":628.66,"text":"很多消費者自己其實有沒有吃到問題"},{"start":628.66,"end":629.66,"text":"都很難確認"},{"start":629.66,"end":630.66,"text":"怎麼提出證明"},{"start":630.66,"end":633.66,"text":"甚至完成請求權的一個浪語"},{"start":633.66,"end":637.66,"text":"那本席先請教一下這個消保處"},{"start":637.66,"end":639.66,"text":"那麼從過去塑化劑"},{"start":639.66,"end":641.66,"text":"毒澱粉到這次的毒油"},{"start":641.66,"end":642.66,"text":"問題很相似"},{"start":642.66,"end":643.66,"text":"那麼產品吃下去之後呢"},{"start":643.66,"end":645.66,"text":"購買憑證沒有保存"},{"start":645.66,"end":649.66,"text":"求償人數跟受影響的人數嚴重的不成比例"},{"start":649.66,"end":652.66,"text":"那本席認為現行以個別請求權"},{"start":652.66,"end":655.66,"text":"為核心的這個團體訴訟制度"},{"start":655.66,"end":657.66,"text":"似乎沒有辦法來處理現在的"},{"start":657.66,"end":659.66,"text":"很大的這樣一個食安的事件"},{"start":659.66,"end":661.66,"text":"那麼消保處會不會支持"},{"start":661.66,"end":664.66,"text":"我們修正消費者保護法"},{"start":664.66,"end":666.66,"text":"那麼針對主管機關公告的"},{"start":666.66,"end":669.66,"text":"重大食安或公共衛生的這個事件"},{"start":669.66,"end":671.66,"text":"那麼允許資格"},{"start":671.66,"end":673.66,"text":"具有資格的消保團體"},{"start":673.66,"end":677.66,"text":"不必逐一取得請求權的這個浪度"},{"start":677.66,"end":681.66,"text":"然後即以公義的名義來提起代表訴訟"},{"start":681.66,"end":683.66,"text":"追究企業責任"},{"start":683.66,"end":685.66,"text":"您這邊的看法"},{"start":685.66,"end":686.66,"text":"是,報告委員"},{"start":686.66,"end":687.66,"text":"這個議題呢"},{"start":687.66,"end":689.66,"text":"在消基會的代表"},{"start":689.66,"end":691.66,"text":"也是我們行政院保護會的委員"},{"start":691.66,"end":692.66,"text":"那他在我們的委員會裡面"},{"start":692.66,"end":694.66,"text":"有提到這樣的一個建議"},{"start":694.66,"end":695.66,"text":"跟委員相同的建議"},{"start":695.66,"end":696.66,"text":"那這個建議呢"},{"start":696.66,"end":697.66,"text":"我們後來在4月底的時候"},{"start":697.66,"end":698.66,"text":"有開一個會"},{"start":698.66,"end":699.66,"text":"邀請學者專家"},{"start":699.66,"end":701.66,"text":"包含消基會代表"},{"start":701.66,"end":702.66,"text":"以及台銷會的代表"},{"start":702.66,"end":703.66,"text":"都有出席這個會議"},{"start":703.66,"end":705.66,"text":"我們司法院的代表"},{"start":705.66,"end":706.66,"text":"也有出席這個會議"},{"start":706.66,"end":707.66,"text":"那這裡面"},{"start":707.66,"end":709.66,"text":"接下來也會請教司法院"},{"start":709.66,"end":710.66,"text":"那裡面有一些議題"},{"start":710.66,"end":712.66,"text":"我們是持開放的態度"},{"start":712.66,"end":713.66,"text":"就是說我們希望這個議題"},{"start":713.66,"end":714.66,"text":"能夠比較完整"},{"start":714.66,"end":716.66,"text":"那包含這個提案裡面"},{"start":716.66,"end":717.66,"text":"它的這個"},{"start":717.66,"end":719.66,"text":"它的訴訟的性質定性是什麼"},{"start":719.66,"end":720.66,"text":"比如說它到底是一個"},{"start":720.66,"end":721.66,"text":"損害賠償的一個訴訟"},{"start":721.66,"end":723.66,"text":"或者是一個不法利得追求的訴訟"},{"start":723.66,"end":726.66,"text":"那這個會跟後面的整個條文的設計"},{"start":726.66,"end":727.66,"text":"都會非常有關係"},{"start":727.66,"end":728.66,"text":"也相當的複雜"},{"start":728.66,"end":730.66,"text":"那我們在4月開完以後呢"},{"start":730.66,"end":731.66,"text":"現在在整理一些"},{"start":731.66,"end":732.66,"text":"國外的法制"},{"start":732.66,"end":733.66,"text":"還有我們自己的"},{"start":733.66,"end":735.66,"text":"一些委員的一些意見"},{"start":735.66,"end":736.66,"text":"那希望後續能夠再"},{"start":736.66,"end":738.66,"text":"持續的進行一些討論"},{"start":738.66,"end":740.66,"text":"先跟委員報告 謝謝"},{"start":740.66,"end":741.66,"text":"謝謝你們的這個回應"},{"start":741.66,"end":742.66,"text":"那我想這樣的問題"},{"start":742.66,"end":744.66,"text":"你也認同本席所提出來的"},{"start":744.66,"end":747.66,"text":"應該也是在因應後續的這個狀況"},{"start":747.66,"end":749.66,"text":"我們會持續的再討論"},{"start":749.66,"end":751.66,"text":"來請教一些學者專家"},{"start":751.66,"end":752.66,"text":"跟消保團體"},{"start":752.66,"end":753.66,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":753.66,"end":754.66,"text":"那謝謝考量這樣一個"},{"start":754.66,"end":755.66,"text":"這些因素"},{"start":755.66,"end":757.66,"text":"那接下來當然司法院"},{"start":757.66,"end":758.66,"text":"因為你們在這個世界上"},{"start":758.66,"end":759.66,"text":"也有參與"},{"start":759.66,"end":761.66,"text":"所以如果建立這個"},{"start":761.66,"end":762.66,"text":"針對這個問題"},{"start":762.66,"end":765.66,"text":"我們如果建立這類公益代表的這個訴訟"},{"start":765.66,"end":766.66,"text":"那麼司法體系"},{"start":766.66,"end":767.66,"text":"有沒有準備好"},{"start":767.66,"end":770.66,"text":"來處理不特定多數消費者的認定"},{"start":770.66,"end":771.66,"text":"還有損害範圍"},{"start":771.66,"end":774.66,"text":"以及後續加入求償的機制"},{"start":774.66,"end":776.66,"text":"先由法院來確認企業責任"},{"start":776.66,"end":780.66,"text":"然後再讓符合條件的消費者來加入"},{"start":780.66,"end":781.66,"text":"請求救濟"},{"start":781.66,"end":784.66,"text":"那這個有沒有制度的一個可行性呢"},{"start":784.66,"end":786.66,"text":"是 跟委員報告"},{"start":786.66,"end":788.66,"text":"因為關於委員這個提議"},{"start":788.66,"end":792.66,"text":"在五國現行法制確實是沒有這樣的一個機制"},{"start":792.66,"end":793.66,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":793.66,"end":796.66,"text":"它在現行的法理上面"},{"start":796.66,"end":799.66,"text":"最主要還會涉及到計判力的問題"},{"start":799.66,"end":801.66,"text":"因為當初我們現行法制"},{"start":801.66,"end":804.66,"text":"因為消費者團體"},{"start":804.66,"end":807.66,"text":"消費者把那個債權讓給消保團體"},{"start":807.66,"end":809.66,"text":"所以消保團體去打了那個訴訟之後"},{"start":809.66,"end":812.66,"text":"那個計判力會給予個別消費者"},{"start":812.66,"end":814.66,"text":"因為對個別消費者來講"},{"start":814.66,"end":816.66,"text":"他真正要拿到的是那個債權"},{"start":816.66,"end":818.66,"text":"是那個賠償"},{"start":818.66,"end":821.66,"text":"所以如果說用所謂的"},{"start":821.66,"end":824.66,"text":"行政機關或特定團體的公益團體"},{"start":824.66,"end":826.66,"text":"這個金錢分配要怎麼分"},{"start":826.66,"end":827.66,"text":"這個是知識體大"},{"start":827.66,"end":831.66,"text":"這個計判力的牽涉範圍可能要重常記憶"},{"start":831.66,"end":832.66,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":832.66,"end":835.66,"text":"現行法制法理上有這樣的一個疑慮"},{"start":835.66,"end":839.66,"text":"那當然制度設計如果它能夠解除"},{"start":839.66,"end":843.66,"text":"可能要請教民事訴訟的學者專家"},{"start":843.66,"end":846.66,"text":"他們在這個制度設計上會有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":846.66,"end":849.66,"text":"是不是能夠克服剛才跟委員提到的這些問題"},{"start":849.66,"end":852.66,"text":"那如果說可以克服的話"},{"start":852.66,"end":854.66,"text":"那當然制度設計妥當"},{"start":854.66,"end":857.66,"text":"那法院當然就是依法來處理"},{"start":857.66,"end":860.66,"text":"但是剛才委員提到的好像是意思要"},{"start":860.66,"end":862.66,"text":"建議方向是兩階段"},{"start":862.66,"end":865.66,"text":"所以這個你們在先前的這個會議裡面討論"},{"start":865.66,"end":866.66,"text":"有討論過嗎"},{"start":866.66,"end":867.66,"text":"就是本席這個看法"},{"start":867.66,"end":869.66,"text":"當時小保會來會的時候就是有提到說"},{"start":869.66,"end":872.66,"text":"有消保團體建議公益團體訴訟"},{"start":872.66,"end":875.66,"text":"那我們有提供說我們剛才所提到的疑慮"},{"start":875.66,"end":878.66,"text":"但因為當時消保會的議題"},{"start":878.66,"end":882.66,"text":"它是一個由某消費者團體提出的建議"},{"start":882.66,"end":884.66,"text":"其實那個內容並不明確"},{"start":884.66,"end":888.66,"text":"所以我們也沒有辦法就不明確的東西"},{"start":888.66,"end":889.66,"text":"有太多的意見"},{"start":889.66,"end":892.66,"text":"我們只是提出可能的問題方向"},{"start":892.66,"end":893.66,"text":"好的謝謝"},{"start":893.66,"end":897.66,"text":"那我想這應該是在法制上對於整個修法"},{"start":897.66,"end":899.66,"text":"或者是個案引起的可能"},{"start":899.66,"end":901.66,"text":"全面性的問題的一個嚴謹"},{"start":901.66,"end":905.66,"text":"那本席今天也這樣提出一個看法跟建議"},{"start":905.66,"end":907.66,"text":"那如果你們在先前也沒有討論"},{"start":907.66,"end":910.66,"text":"或是在討論的資料內容上不是那麼明確"},{"start":910.66,"end":912.66,"text":"那本席提供這樣一個方向"},{"start":912.66,"end":915.66,"text":"那或許你們也可以就專家學者"},{"start":915.66,"end":919.66,"text":"跟民間我們現在可能發生的這樣一個實際的案例"},{"start":919.66,"end":921.66,"text":"然後再做更進一步的討論"},{"start":921.66,"end":925.66,"text":"然後如果有一些比較具體的可能性"},{"start":925.66,"end":928.66,"text":"那是不是也提供本席研究室這邊相關的一個資料"},{"start":928.66,"end":929.66,"text":"好不好"},{"start":929.66,"end":930.66,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":930.66,"end":933.66,"text":"那接下來最後我們就針對第二個議題"},{"start":933.66,"end":934.66,"text":"就是國家投資"},{"start":934.66,"end":937.66,"text":"這個跟利益衝突的一個制度上的這個問題"},{"start":937.66,"end":940.66,"text":"那我這邊就請教我們法務部政部長"},{"start":940.66,"end":944.66,"text":"跟我們國發會是江執秘今天代表嗎"},{"start":949.66,"end":950.66,"text":"委員好"},{"start":950.66,"end":951.66,"text":"部長執秘好"},{"start":951.66,"end":953.66,"text":"那麼本席最後來請教"},{"start":953.66,"end":956.66,"text":"這個我相信大家滿關注的一個個案"},{"start":956.66,"end":961.66,"text":"那麼當行政院的這個二清等的親屬認職的公司"},{"start":961.66,"end":964.66,"text":"然後接受了行政院所屬的這個國發基金"},{"start":964.66,"end":966.66,"text":"也是滿大一個數的兩千萬投資"},{"start":966.66,"end":970.66,"text":"那麼經濟部這邊也有一百二十萬的這個補助的時候"},{"start":970.66,"end":973.66,"text":"我想社會大眾對於這個利益迴避制度"},{"start":973.66,"end":975.66,"text":"究竟有沒有效"},{"start":975.66,"end":976.66,"text":"也是提出很多疑問"},{"start":976.66,"end":979.66,"text":"當然剛才很多人也提出來"},{"start":979.66,"end":983.66,"text":"大家在質詢的時候提出一些比較細項的這個釐清"},{"start":983.66,"end":985.66,"text":"但是針對這一案"},{"start":985.66,"end":988.66,"text":"依據我們目前知道的公開的資料"},{"start":988.66,"end":991.66,"text":"那麼這個公司在二零二二年就已經申請"},{"start":991.66,"end":994.66,"text":"國發基金那麼創業天使投資方案"},{"start":994.66,"end":997.66,"text":"那也獲得一個很特殊的數額"},{"start":997.66,"end":1000.66,"text":"一千九百九十九萬九千元"},{"start":1000.66,"end":1004.66,"text":"然後在二零二四年又取得了經濟部商業發展署"},{"start":1004.66,"end":1006.66,"text":"一百二十萬的這個補助"},{"start":1006.66,"end":1008.66,"text":"那麼在清除這個過程當中"},{"start":1008.66,"end":1010.66,"text":"親屬關係有沒有具實的揭露"},{"start":1010.66,"end":1012.66,"text":"那麼審查的人也有沒有知悉"},{"start":1012.66,"end":1017.66,"text":"還有整個的程序是不是足以排除外界對利益輸送的一個合理懷疑"},{"start":1017.66,"end":1022.66,"text":"所以這個是本席針對這個個案的一個前導的這個說明"},{"start":1022.66,"end":1025.6599999999999,"text":"所以本席先請教我們法務部部長"},{"start":1025.6599999999999,"end":1029.6599999999999,"text":"那麼依據這個公職人員的利益迴避衝突法"},{"start":1029.6599999999999,"end":1031.6599999999999,"text":"第十四條的明定"},{"start":1031.6599999999999,"end":1038.6599999999999,"text":"公職人員及其關係人不得與其服務或受監督的這個機關團體從事補助"},{"start":1038.6599999999999,"end":1040.6599999999999,"text":"買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":1040.66,"end":1044.66,"text":"或其他具有對價之交易行為"},{"start":1044.66,"end":1046.66,"text":"那麼符合所謂的例外情形"},{"start":1046.66,"end":1050.66,"text":"還是需要依法來揭露身份的關係"},{"start":1050.66,"end":1052.66,"text":"那麼國發會的投資基金"},{"start":1052.66,"end":1055.66,"text":"那又投資了然後又取得這個股權"},{"start":1055.66,"end":1061.66,"text":"那這個是不是在資金跟股權的互相交換"},{"start":1061.66,"end":1064.66,"text":"是不是有一些對價的行為的一個疑慮"},{"start":1064.66,"end":1067.66,"text":"那麼法務部對於這個政府基金股權投資"},{"start":1067.66,"end":1069.66,"text":"是否適用在十四條"},{"start":1069.66,"end":1072.66,"text":"那麼有沒有正式的一些法律的見解"},{"start":1072.66,"end":1076.66,"text":"那麼行政這次看起來就是行政機關"},{"start":1076.66,"end":1077.66,"text":"就自行詢問律師"},{"start":1077.66,"end":1080.66,"text":"就認定不在規範的範圍"},{"start":1080.66,"end":1083.66,"text":"但是現在條文如果沒有辦法涵蓋"},{"start":1083.66,"end":1085.66,"text":"法務部是不是認為這是應該"},{"start":1085.66,"end":1089.66,"text":"應該要儘速補上的一個法律的制度"},{"start":1089.66,"end":1091.66,"text":"您的看法呢"},{"start":1091.66,"end":1094.66,"text":"這個的確這個個案的問題"},{"start":1094.66,"end":1097.66,"text":"現在檢察院已經受理在處理了"},{"start":1097.66,"end":1100.66,"text":"那依據那個立法第20條的規定"},{"start":1100.66,"end":1103.66,"text":"這個個案是由以這個來講"},{"start":1103.66,"end":1107.66,"text":"這是由檢察院來全管來做一個主政"},{"start":1107.66,"end":1108.66,"text":"那關於事實這邊"},{"start":1108.66,"end":1112.66,"text":"因為不是我們法務部連證署在處理的"},{"start":1112.66,"end":1114.66,"text":"所以我們對這個個案的情形"},{"start":1114.66,"end":1115.66,"text":"我們並不清楚"},{"start":1115.66,"end":1118.66,"text":"因為我們沒辦法去做一樣的一個調查"},{"start":1118.66,"end":1119.66,"text":"再來做一個裁罰"},{"start":1119.66,"end":1121.66,"text":"所以事實上怎麼樣"},{"start":1121.66,"end":1123.66,"text":"是不是屬於第14條的"},{"start":1123.66,"end":1126.66,"text":"我們還要回歸到第14條來看"},{"start":1126.66,"end":1129.66,"text":"那第14條這個的確是"},{"start":1129.66,"end":1131.66,"text":"限於那個公子人員跟"},{"start":1131.66,"end":1132.66,"text":"或者他的關係人員"},{"start":1132.66,"end":1134.66,"text":"他有補助買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":1134.66,"end":1137.66,"text":"跟其他有對價的一個交易行為"},{"start":1137.66,"end":1140.66,"text":"那這個投資這個顯然不在"},{"start":1140.66,"end":1142.66,"text":"第14條的範圍之內"},{"start":1142.66,"end":1144.66,"text":"那投資這個行為"},{"start":1144.66,"end":1148.66,"text":"因為我們只能就14條這部分"},{"start":1148.66,"end":1150.66,"text":"來做一個解釋"},{"start":1150.66,"end":1152.66,"text":"那是不是這部分"},{"start":1152.66,"end":1154.66,"text":"我們沒辦法做一個認定"},{"start":1154.66,"end":1158.66,"text":"因為這個不是我們法務全管的一個處理的"},{"start":1158.66,"end":1159.66,"text":"好的 了解"},{"start":1159.66,"end":1161.66,"text":"那今天比較可惜啦"},{"start":1161.66,"end":1162.66,"text":"今天查院不在"},{"start":1162.66,"end":1163.66,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法對照的"},{"start":1163.66,"end":1166.66,"text":"來處理跟因應解決這個問題"},{"start":1166.66,"end":1168.66,"text":"但只是說如果後續"},{"start":1168.66,"end":1171.66,"text":"在這個資訊上有更明朗的話"},{"start":1171.66,"end":1173.66,"text":"那本席剛才所講的"},{"start":1173.66,"end":1176.66,"text":"如果可能是一個制度上的漏洞"},{"start":1176.66,"end":1178.66,"text":"那可能是不是法務部這邊"},{"start":1178.66,"end":1180.66,"text":"在未來如果資訊上有比較明朗"},{"start":1180.66,"end":1181.66,"text":"那再看看"},{"start":1181.66,"end":1183.66,"text":"假設有本席所講的這個情況"},{"start":1183.66,"end":1187.66,"text":"那在修法的一個可能性上提供一些參考"},{"start":1187.66,"end":1189.66,"text":"這個是要請監察院來做一個認定"},{"start":1189.66,"end":1193.66,"text":"那我們只能就是依照法律的規定來處理"},{"start":1193.66,"end":1195.66,"text":"好的 那本席提出來就是說"},{"start":1195.66,"end":1198.66,"text":"如果未來資訊有比較明朗"},{"start":1198.66,"end":1199.66,"text":"那有必要"},{"start":1199.66,"end":1202.66,"text":"那麼可能我們就在針對修法的可能性"},{"start":1202.66,"end":1203.66,"text":"再做一個討論"},{"start":1203.66,"end":1204.66,"text":"好 謝謝部長"},{"start":1204.66,"end":1206.66,"text":"那比較可惜的是監察院"},{"start":1206.66,"end":1208.66,"text":"今天沒有出席"},{"start":1208.66,"end":1210.66,"text":"對不起 國發會我還是要跟你請教一下"},{"start":1210.66,"end":1213.66,"text":"那麼國發會在這個案子"},{"start":1213.66,"end":1215.66,"text":"有外部專家的這個審議"},{"start":1215.66,"end":1216.66,"text":"但是外界今天沒有看"},{"start":1216.66,"end":1219.66,"text":"還沒有看到整個審議委員的組成"},{"start":1219.66,"end":1221.66,"text":"還有利益迴避的紀錄"},{"start":1221.66,"end":1224.66,"text":"跟評估的內容和投票的結果"},{"start":1224.66,"end":1226.66,"text":"那還有你們的簽核成績"},{"start":1226.66,"end":1229.66,"text":"跟投資之後的整個管理成效"},{"start":1229.66,"end":1231.66,"text":"所以本席這邊跟你請教一下"},{"start":1231.66,"end":1234.66,"text":"你能不能承諾向立法院來完整提供"},{"start":1234.66,"end":1236.66,"text":"本案的審查文件"},{"start":1236.66,"end":1240.66,"text":"審查程序 評估報告 簽核的流程"},{"start":1240.66,"end":1242.66,"text":"以及投資後的一個管理資料"},{"start":1242.66,"end":1245.66,"text":"那麼如果行政院跟其所屬的機關"},{"start":1245.66,"end":1249.66,"text":"沒有任何人做所謂的關說指示跟介入"},{"start":1249.66,"end":1252.66,"text":"那就應該能夠完整的提供資料"},{"start":1252.66,"end":1254.66,"text":"接受國會跟社會的檢驗"},{"start":1254.66,"end":1257.66,"text":"而不是一直反覆你們說程序合法"},{"start":1257.66,"end":1259.66,"text":"可是外界的疑慮還是在"},{"start":1259.66,"end":1263.66,"text":"那這個部分您是否能夠承諾呢"},{"start":1263.66,"end":1266.66,"text":"是 非常謝謝委員的指正"},{"start":1266.66,"end":1270.66,"text":"那對於大院這一邊的這個所知"},{"start":1270.66,"end":1273.66,"text":"我們一定都是在合法合規的範圍裡面"},{"start":1273.66,"end":1275.66,"text":"盡全力的來提供"},{"start":1275.66,"end":1277.66,"text":"就是說您承諾這一案"},{"start":1277.66,"end":1280.66,"text":"如果我們針對剛才那些什麼資訊來所知"},{"start":1280.66,"end":1283.66,"text":"應該是同意的嘛 跟可以的"},{"start":1283.66,"end":1285.66,"text":"譬如說他的申請文件裡面"},{"start":1285.66,"end":1287.66,"text":"有涉及到公司的營業秘密"},{"start":1287.66,"end":1289.66,"text":"這個我們同仁提供就會有可能"},{"start":1289.66,"end":1291.66,"text":"應該我們沒有要求這個部分"},{"start":1291.66,"end":1294.66,"text":"國發會在本席剛才所講的那幾個要素"},{"start":1294.66,"end":1296.66,"text":"你們的處理"},{"start":1296.66,"end":1298.66,"text":"然後跟你們講程序合法嘛"},{"start":1298.66,"end":1301.66,"text":"那我們就來確認一下你們講的程序合法"},{"start":1301.66,"end":1302.66,"text":"那每一個要件"},{"start":1302.66,"end":1305.66,"text":"我想我們就更細節的來做一些"},{"start":1305.66,"end":1307.66,"text":"這個查詢跟認定"},{"start":1307.66,"end":1310.66,"text":"那我想會讓外界的疑慮減低一點嗎"},{"start":1310.66,"end":1312.66,"text":"好不好 非常謝謝"},{"start":1312.66,"end":1314.66,"text":"就是不涉及這一些營業秘密"},{"start":1314.66,"end":1316.66,"text":"我們沒有要求所謂的營業秘密"},{"start":1316.66,"end":1318.66,"text":"我們沒有要求所謂的營業秘密"},{"start":1318.66,"end":1320.66,"text":"但申請文件裡面是有這些東西的"},{"start":1320.66,"end":1322.66,"text":"那公部門就是公部門"},{"start":1322.66,"end":1324.66,"text":"你們針對本席剛才所講的"},{"start":1324.66,"end":1326.66,"text":"應該在可以允許的範圍內"},{"start":1326.66,"end":1328.66,"text":"應該有一些分級跟考量嘛"},{"start":1328.66,"end":1330.66,"text":"那我們一定全體提供"},{"start":1330.66,"end":1333.66,"text":"謝謝 那最後本來本席也是針對這案"},{"start":1333.66,"end":1335.66,"text":"請各機關"},{"start":1335.66,"end":1337.66,"text":"那雖然監察院沒有在"},{"start":1337.66,"end":1339.66,"text":"分別就法律的適用"},{"start":1339.66,"end":1341.66,"text":"還有監督的調查跟審查的透明"},{"start":1341.66,"end":1345.66,"text":"那希望後續能夠提供本席研究室"},{"start":1345.66,"end":1347.66,"text":"一個比較明確的這個答覆好不好"},{"start":1347.66,"end":1349.66,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":1349.66,"end":1351.66,"text":"謝謝 林慶琦"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:14:51.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:14:53.390000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席翁召委。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:14:54.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:15:07.326667+08:00","text":"沒有真相，不應急著上架，是我對這次毒油事件的一致立場跟態度，所以首先我要請教衛福部次長。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:15:07.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:15:08.660000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:15:09.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:15:10.160000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:15:11.517143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:15:48.410000+08:00","text":"首先要提出的不僅是本席的疑問，同時也是很多地方首長的疑問，中聯油脂事件的真相還沒有完全釐清，衛福部目前急著要讓19批油品重新上架，食藥署表示，中聯今年4月到6月生產的30批大豆沙拉油當中，19批經過上游的原油、下游的產品檢驗以及批次流向的核對後，確認符合標準，因此可以重新上架。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:15:49.088571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:16:02.429231+08:00","text":"本席是尊重科學的檢驗，只是面對食安，有三個是民眾都很關心的基本問題：第一，大家一直在問的是，請問污染源到底是在哪裡？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:16:02.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:16:10.437778+08:00","text":"第二，為什麼中聯的留樣檢驗報告跟下游產品的檢驗結果出現這麼大的落差？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:16:11.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:16:14.460000+08:00","text":"第三，業者有沒有隱匿、造假？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:16:15.023636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:16:19.387273+08:00","text":"政府的三級品管制度又是哪一個環節出了問題？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:16:20.205455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:16:29.460000+08:00","text":"中央急著要重新上架，真正執行的、面對群眾的地方政府怎麼向民眾保證這一定是安全的？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:16:29.890769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:16:32.429231+08:00","text":"民眾又憑什麼可以恢復信心？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:16:32.847500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:16:35.472500+08:00","text":"剛才本席所講的這幾點都還沒有釐清！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:16:36.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:16:45.393333+08:00","text":"本席要請教次長的第一個問題是，衛福部是不是已經完全排除批次混油以及製程交叉污染的風險？","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:16:46.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:16:58.360000+08:00","text":"如果污染的原因還沒有完全清楚，目前所取得的檢體合格是不是可以百分之百的代表整個下游的製品都安全？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:16:58.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:17:00.517143+08:00","text":"這個部分，您要不要先做一個回應？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:17:01.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:17:28.260000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，其實依照食安法中對於油脂相關的標準，當然這一次中聯驗出來的那個部分是超標的，但是對於各家油品，我們後來處理的方式是，第一個，我們發現中聯之前每次通報給地方衛生局或者他自己的數字都說是合格的，但是在這個過程中，一批一批的發現有問題，所以才會從4月份到6月份我們全部先預防性下架。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:17:29.326667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:17:47.517143+08:00","text":"剛剛委員所提到的，我們其中驗出來中聯這邊確定不論是後來的第二層廠商或者是……應該說其他福懋、福壽甚至南僑驗到不合格的這幾個批次，我們確定就是不合格，所以一定要下架，而且已經啟動回收，再來要啟動銷毀，這是第一個部分。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:17:47.817895+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:18:22.493333+08:00","text":"第二個部分，這一次預防性下架的這30批裡面，我們取得了留樣，這個留樣就是從中聯一路下來，從中聯到福懋、中聯到福壽、中聯到泰山，這一邊福懋、福壽、泰山的留樣原油，也就是我們從他的第二層廠商這邊去取，這裡面的檢體我們委託後續做檢查，目前這幾批油的檢驗結果都符合我們食安法裡面所規定油脂中含苯駢芘的標準，所以在目前現行法規裡面，這些是符合的。","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:18:22.826667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:18:22.993333+08:00","text":"剛剛委員……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:18:23.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:18:26.493333+08:00","text":"所以本席剛剛提問的，污染到底是怎麼回事呢？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:18:27.993333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:18:47.548889+08:00","text":"委員，當然專家這邊會用污染這個詞，不過再補充一下，其實這個部分就是在油品製造過程中，我們現在委託第三方去做中聯在HACCP每一個製造節點應該加什麼進去做處理是不是處理得不夠等等，這是專業上面正在做處理，我稍微……","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:18:47.993333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:19:00.506154+08:00","text":"所以現在面臨專業跟民眾認知有落差的情況下，對於目前你們思考要重新上架的油品是不是絕對安全，我想民眾是會有很大的疑慮。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:19:00.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:19:11.517143+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，我再稍微說明一下，第一個，這19批是我們現在拿到的原油樣本去檢驗的，不是在中聯的地方拿到原油樣本，目前驗出來是符合標準的，這是第一個事情。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:19:11.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:19:23.410000+08:00","text":"第二個事情，事實上，以現在來講，這個苯駢芘，目前認為在製程過程中有好幾個HACCP的節點應該要能夠讓這個苯駢芘的濃度往下降，可是他的處理不當。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:19:23.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:19:34.472500+08:00","text":"好，本席講到的全面性問題是大家的疑慮，對民眾來講，他其實沒有必要去了解你所謂專業上的問題，大家的疑慮就是原因都還不知道！","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:19:34.841818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:19:43.548889+08:00","text":"您剛才講的節點、斷點或者是中間的一些可能性，我想民眾對於這其中會不會還有一些問題其實是有一些疑慮的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:19:43.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:19:53.460000+08:00","text":"所以對於中聯，我們目前就是不會同意他復工，但是目前檢驗另外的這19批產品，我們現在驗到的是符合標準的。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:19:54.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:20:05.517143+08:00","text":"目前整個供應鏈的誠信問題其實也還沒有完全釐清，重新上架的標準有沒有納入業者的誠信、製程的管理跟追溯資料的可靠性？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:20:05.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:20:12.445714+08:00","text":"還是只是依您所講的，重新檢驗合格就可以跟整個食安事件全部切割？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:20:12.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:20:22.506154+08:00","text":"我想我們還是會全面性地去做更……未來在整個油品的品質上面，還有相關這些大型廠商的責任上面，去做更高的要求，當然我們也配合法務部去做檢查。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:20:22.882222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:20:31.493333+08:00","text":"這個是未來嘛，但是針對剛才本席所講的，目前業者的誠信、製程的管理及資料的追溯，有在你們目前要重新上架的考量當中嗎？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:20:31.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:20:41.160000+08:00","text":"有關於重新上架，先跟委員報告，我們在之前對於……還是要強調，中聯這邊驗到不合格的是不可能上架了，而且我們接下來要啟動銷毀。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:20:41.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:20:43.374286+08:00","text":"對，你們如果把這個上架就太離譜了！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:20:43.374286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:20:44.374286+08:00","text":"之前另外的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:20:44.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:20:51.460000+08:00","text":"本席所講的是你們現在重新上架的這個標準似乎看起來重新抽驗是合格的……對。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:20:51.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:20:57.374286+08:00","text":"但本席剛才所講的，業者的誠信、製程的管理跟追溯資料的可靠性，你們目前做了嗎？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:20:57.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:21:00.526667+08:00","text":"我們現在正在進行，當然中聯這邊正在進行調查，但是……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:21:00.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:21:08.326667+08:00","text":"所以是不是這個部分如果沒有很清楚的確認，這批油品先不要上架？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:21:08.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:21:14.460000+08:00","text":"要不然消費者對於這些油品有沒有毒，可能還是會有疑慮，所以本席在此先做個提醒。","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:21:14.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:21:18.260000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這19批檢驗合格。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:21:19.023636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:21:51.460000+08:00","text":"我剛才的問題是目前唯一的要素就是檢驗合格，可是剛剛本席也提出來好幾個要素，你們應該在同時做一個處理，要不然你說未來、未來、未來，但是大家的疑慮就是已經有發生的，那是針對目前的毒油，大家的疑慮就是到底還有哪一些是可能有毒的，你們目前的說法就只有依據檢驗合格，但是本席剛才所講的幾個要素，本席在此也強烈建議你們應該同時做，請聽懂這個問題，好不好？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:21:51.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:21:52.410000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:21:52.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:22:14.326667+08:00","text":"最後是中央採取分批上架，可是地方政府必須面對大量的品項逐批來核對，反覆下架、上架的執行壓力，所以臺北、臺中、高雄等跨黨派的縣市政府都表示，我們應該先把真相釐清，確認食品安全無虞，然後才准上架。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:22:15.205455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:22:52.460000+08:00","text":"本席認為中央現階段沒有提供足以讓地方政府及消費者信服的完整資訊，在過程當中，我們看到中央跟地方大家都互推責任，這樣其實會引起地方政府在執行上的困難，所以本席要求衛福部不能只公布哪一些批次檢驗合格，還應該公布完整的污染原因、採樣方式、檢驗機構、上下游檢核的結果、流向清冊，以及重新上架之後持續檢驗的抽檢責任及追蹤機制。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:22:53.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:23:15.460000+08:00","text":"本席在此提醒，食品安全不是只有你們所謂的檢驗，而是整個供應鏈的信任、資訊透明跟責任釐清，所以本席還是站在和剛才一致的立場，沒有真相就不要急著上架，否則貿然重新上架，那只會讓地方政府承受很大的壓力，然後事情發生的時候，我們只有看到中央一直在推卸責任。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:23:15.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:23:34.493333+08:00","text":"本席已經先做了提醒，希望你們能夠同步把本席剛才建議的一些要素都考量進去，你們未來要怎麼做，我想經過這次事件應該有些檢討，但是對於民眾目前的疑慮，本席提供了幾個要素，也是讓你們可以同步更完整的去做一個處理。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:23:34.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:23:42.460000+08:00","text":"不過，委員，我還是要再強調一下，依照現行食安法第四十一條，直轄市、縣市主管機關為確保食品安全……","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:23:42.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:23:45.410000+08:00","text":"你們可以講法條，但是本席一直講的是民眾的疑慮……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:23:46.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:23:52.410000+08:00","text":"中央是在必要時來協助，所以中央跟地方政府一起努力，是非常重要的事情……","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:23:52.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:23:54.506154+08:00","text":"謝謝次長，我想中央跟地方大家都在努力……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:23:54.506154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:23:55.506154+08:00","text":"地方這邊的把關是我們第一線最重要的把關……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:23:54.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:24:00.410000+08:00","text":"包括民眾所提出的問題也是我們可以參考的一個很重要的要件。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:24:00.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:24:02.493333+08:00","text":"是，我們也會跟地方一起來要求。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:24:02.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:24:03.326667+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:24:03.826667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:24:15.260000+08:00","text":"接下來本席要來詢問一下消保處鍾處長、司法院的代表林廳長。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:24:15.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:24:16.410000+08:00","text":"請鍾處長和林廳長。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:24:21.826667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:24:22.493333+08:00","text":"次長，您請回，謝謝。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T10:24:22.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:24:23.410000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:24:23.932727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:25:15.410000+08:00","text":"兩位，本席請教一個比較實際的問題，我想這次毒油事件發生，所有的民眾很關心的就是我們目前吃到的問題油要如何救濟，也就是重大事件的集體救濟問題，剛才有幾位委員提到，當然也有一些你們的回應，這次苯駢芘超標的事件是典型的受害人數龐大、個別損害很分散、舉證也很困難的一個案件，依照現行的消費者保護法第五十條，消保團體提起團體訴訟，原則上還是要先取得足夠的消費者跟損害賠償的請求權，現在問題是很多消費者其實連自己有沒有吃到問題油都很難確認，怎麼提出證明，甚至完成請求權的讓與？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:25:16.967692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:26:06.326667+08:00","text":"本席先請教一下消保處，從過去塑化劑、毒澱粉到這次的毒油，問題很相似，產品吃下去之後，購買憑證沒有保存，求償人數跟受影響人數嚴重的不成比例，本席認為現行以個別請求權為核心的團體訴訟制度，似乎沒有辦法來處理這樣一個很大的食安事件，那麼消保處會不會支持我們修正消費者保護法，針對主管機關公告的重大食安或公共衛生事件，允許具有資格的消保團體不必逐一取得請求權的讓渡，即以公益的名義來提起代表訴訟，追究企業責任？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:26:06.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:26:08.326667+08:00","text":"請問您的看法。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T10:26:08.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:26:29.535000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個議題在消基會……因為消基會的代表也是我們行政院保護會的委員，他在我們委員會裡面也有提到跟委員相同的建議，後來我們在4月底的時候開了一個會，邀請學者專家，包含消基會代表及台消會的代表都有出席這個會議，司法院的代表也有出席這個會議。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T10:26:30.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:26:30.410000+08:00","text":"在裡面有一些……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:26:30.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:26:32.460000+08:00","text":"本席接下來也會請教司法院。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T10:26:33.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:26:42.493333+08:00","text":"其中有一些議題，我們是持開放態度，就是我們希望這個議題能夠比較完整，包含這個提案裡面它的訴訟定性是什麼？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T10:26:42.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:26:46.517143+08:00","text":"比如它到底是一個損害賠償的訴訟，或者是一個不法利得追求的訴訟？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T10:26:46.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:26:51.493333+08:00","text":"這會跟後面整個條文的設計非常有關係，也相當的複雜。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T10:26:51.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:27:03.410000+08:00","text":"我們在4月開完以後，現在在整理一些國外的法制，還有我們自己委員的一些意見，希望後續能夠再持續的進行一些討論，先跟委員報告，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:27:03.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:27:10.445714+08:00","text":"謝謝你們的回應，我想你也認同本席所提出來的，應該也是在因應後續的狀況，會比較公允。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T10:27:10.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:27:16.410000+08:00","text":"我們會持續的再討論，請教一些學者專家跟消保團體，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:27:16.771111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:27:18.410000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝考量這些因素。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:27:18.882222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:27:37.387273+08:00","text":"接下來因為司法院在這個事件上也有參與，所以，針對這個問題，如果建立這類公益代表的訴訟，那麼司法體系有沒有準備好來處理不特定多數消費者的認定，還有損害範圍，以及後續加入求償的機制？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:27:37.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:27:47.460000+08:00","text":"先由法院來確認企業責任，然後再讓符合條件的消費者來加入，請求救濟，這個有沒有制度的可行性呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林廳長俊廷","start":"2026-07-23T10:27:47.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:28:02.445714+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，關於委員這個提議，在我國現行法制中確實沒有這樣的機制，它在現行的法理上面，最主要還會涉及到既判力的問題。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林廳長俊廷","start":"2026-07-23T10:28:03.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:28:38.460000+08:00","text":"根據現行法制，因為消費者把債權讓予給消保團體，消保團體去打了那個訴訟之後，那個既判力會及於個別消費者，因為對個別消費者來講，他真正要拿到的是那個債權、是那個賠償，如果用所謂的行政機關或特定團體的公益團體，這個金錢要怎麼分配茲事體大，所以這個既判力牽涉的範圍可能要從長計議，這是第一點，在現行法制、法理上有這樣的一個疑慮。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林廳長俊廷","start":"2026-07-23T10:28:38.945714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:29:00.410000+08:00","text":"當然制度設計如果能夠解除，可能要請教民事訴訟的學者專家，他們在這個制度設計上會有什麼樣的意見，是不是能夠克服剛才委員提到的這些問題，如果可以克服的話，制度設計妥當，那法院當然就是依法來處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林廳長俊廷","start":"2026-07-23T10:29:00.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:29:05.410000+08:00","text":"但是剛才委員提到的建議方向好像是兩階段，也就是說……","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:29:05.993333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:29:09.460000+08:00","text":"這個你們在先前的會議裡面有討論過嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:29:09.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:29:10.535000+08:00","text":"就是本席這個看法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林廳長俊廷","start":"2026-07-23T10:29:10.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:29:35.429231+08:00","text":"當時消保會與會的時候，就是有提到有消保團體建議公益團體訴訟，那我們有提供我們剛才所提到的疑慮，但因為當時消保會的議題是一個由某消費者團體提出的建議，其實那個內容並不明確，所以我們也沒有辦法就不明確的東西有太多的意見，我們只是提出可能的問題方向。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:29:35.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:29:36.410000+08:00","text":"好的，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:29:36.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:30:13.160000+08:00","text":"那我想這應該是在法制上，對於整個修法或是個案引起可能的全面性問題的嚴謹態度，本席今天也提出一個看法跟建議，如果你們先前也沒有討論，或在討論的資料、內容上不是那麼明確，那本席提供這樣一個方向，或許你們也可以跟專家學者就民間現在可能發生的實際案例再做更進一步的討論，然後如果有一些比較具體的可能性，是不是也把相關的資料提供給本席研究室？謝謝。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:30:14.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:30:26.060000+08:00","text":"最後，我們就針對第二個議題，就是國家投資跟利益衝突的一個制度上的問題，我想請教法務部鄭部長跟國發會汪執秘。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-23T10:30:32.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:30:33.326667+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:30:33.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:30:34.460000+08:00","text":"部長、執秘好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:30:35.104444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:30:59.535000+08:00","text":"本席最後來請教大家蠻關注的一個個案，當行政院官員二親等親屬任職的公司接受了行政院所屬國發基金2,000萬的投資，經濟部也有120萬補助的時候，我想社會大眾對於利益迴避制度究竟有沒有效也是提出很多疑問。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:30:59.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:31:29.460000+08:00","text":"當然剛才很多人也提出來，大家在質詢的時候提出一些比較細項的釐清，但是針對這案，依據我們目前知道的公開資料，這個公司在2022年就已經申請國發基金的創業天使投資方案，也獲得一個很特殊的數額1,999萬9,000元，然後在2024年又取得了經濟部商業發展署120萬的補助。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:31:29.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:31:40.481429+08:00","text":"那麼在這個過程當中，親屬關係有沒有據實揭露、審查人員有沒有知悉，還有整個程序是不是足以排除外界對利益輸送的合理懷疑？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:31:41.094783+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:31:45.442609+08:00","text":"這是本席針對這個個案的前導說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:31:46.088571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:32:07.326667+08:00","text":"本席先請教法務部部長，依據公職人員利益衝突迴避法第十四條，明定公職人員或其關係人，不得與其服務或受其監督之機關團體為補助、買賣、租賃、承攬或「其他具有對價之交易行為」。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:32:08.023636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:32:13.374286+08:00","text":"但符合例外情形，還是需要依法揭露身分的關係。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:32:14.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:32:27.472500+08:00","text":"國發會投資基金投資了又取得股權，在資金跟股權的互相交換上是不是有一些對價行為的疑慮？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:32:28.012941+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:32:35.460000+08:00","text":"法務部對於政府基金股權投資是否適用於第十四條，有沒有正式的一些法律見解？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:32:37.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:32:54.260000+08:00","text":"看起來是行政機關自行詢問律師就認定不在規範的範圍，但現在的條文如果沒有辦法涵蓋，法務部是不是認為這應該是要儘速補上的一個法律制度漏洞，您的看法呢？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:32:55.205455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:33:10.393333+08:00","text":"的確，這個個案的問題現在監察院已經受理、在處理了，依據利衝法第二十條規定，這個個案，以這個來講是由監察院權管主政。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:33:11.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:33:29.387273+08:00","text":"因為不是法務部廉政署在處理，所以對這個個案的情形我們並不清楚，因為我們沒辦法去做調查再裁罰，所以事實上怎麼樣、是不是屬於第十四條，我們還要回歸到第十四條來看嘛！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:33:30.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:33:40.429231+08:00","text":"第十四條這個的確是限於公職人員或其關係人，有補助、買賣、租賃、承攬或其他具有對價之交易行為。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:33:40.932727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:34:01.437778+08:00","text":"這個投資顯然不在第十四條的範圍之內，投資這個行為，因為我們只能就第十四條這部分來做解釋，那麼是不是這部分，我們沒辦法做一個認定，因為這不是法務部權管處理的案子。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:34:01.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:34:02.410000+08:00","text":"好的，了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:34:02.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:34:09.410000+08:00","text":"今天也比較可惜，監察院不在，所以我們沒有辦法對照來處理及因應解決這個問題。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:34:14.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:34:30.424706+08:00","text":"本席剛才所講的，如果是一個制度上的漏洞，可能是不是請法務部這邊，未來如果資訊上比較明朗的話，那再看看，假設有本席所講的這個情況，在修法的可能性上提供一些參考。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T10:34:30.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:34:36.424706+08:00","text":"這個要請監察院認定，我們只能依照法律規定處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:34:36.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:34:38.932727+08:00","text":"好的，本席提出來就是，如果啦！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:34:39.205455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:34:47.460000+08:00","text":"未來資訊比較明朗，有必要，那麼可能我們就針對修法的可能性再做討論，謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:34:47.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:34:51.326667+08:00","text":"比較可惜的是監察院今天沒有出席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:34:52.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:35:12.410000+08:00","text":"國發會，我還要再跟你請教一下，國發會在這個案子有外部專家的審議，但是外界今天還沒有看到整個審議委員的組成、利益迴避的紀錄、評估內容及投票結果，還有你們的簽核層級及投資之後的整個管理成效。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:35:12.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:35:25.493333+08:00","text":"所以本席跟你請教一下，你能不能承諾，向立法院完整提供本案的審查文件、審查程序、評估報告、簽核流程以及投資後的管理資料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:35:26.088571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:35:42.460000+08:00","text":"如果行政院及其所屬機關沒有任何人做所謂的關說、指示及介入，那就應該能夠完整提供資料，接受國會跟社會的檢驗，而不是一直反覆、你們說程序合法，可是外界的疑慮還是在。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:35:42.967692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:35:46.352308+08:00","text":"這個部分您是否能夠承諾呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-23T10:35:46.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:35:58.374286+08:00","text":"是，非常謝謝委員的指正，對於大院的索資，我們一定都是在合法合規的範圍裡面盡全力提供。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-23T10:35:58.374286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:35:59.374286+08:00","text":"至於剛剛提到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:35:58.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:05.296364+08:00","text":"就是說您承諾這一案，如果我們針對剛才那些項目的資訊索資，應該你們是同意的嘛？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:06.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:12.198462+08:00","text":"容我報告一下，這裡面譬如他的申請文件裡面有涉及公司的營業秘密，這個我們同仁提供就會有法律上的……","quality":0.705},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:12.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:21.478182+08:00","text":"應該我們沒有要求這個部分，而是整個國發會，在本席剛才所講那幾個要素你們的處理以及……你們講程序合法嘛！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:21.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:33.945714+08:00","text":"那我們就來確認一下你們講的程序合法，每一個要件，我們就更細節地做一些查詢跟認定，我想會讓外界的疑慮減低一點，好不好？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:34.231429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:37.493333+08:00","text":"是，好，非常謝謝，就是不涉及營業秘密這些，我們都會全力提供。","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:37.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:39.506154+08:00","text":"對，我們沒有要求所謂的營業秘密。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:39.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:41.506154+08:00","text":"我們沒有要求所謂的營業秘密，就是……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:41.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:43.374286+08:00","text":"但申請文件裡面是有這些東西。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:44.548889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:51.296364+08:00","text":"就是公部門，你們針對本席剛才所講的，在允許範圍內，應該有些分際跟考量，對不對？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:51.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:53.437778+08:00","text":"好，那我們一定全力提供。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:53.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:36:53.860000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員倩綺","start":"2026-07-23T10:36:54.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:37:13.060000+08:00","text":"最後，雖然監察院不在，本席也針對這一案請各機關分別就法律適用、監督調查及審查透明，希望後續能夠提供本席研究室比較明確的答復，好不好？謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:37:13.560000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:37:15.560000+08:00","text":"謝謝林倩綺委員。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:37:15.860000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:37:21.574286+08:00","text":"接下來沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:37:21.874286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:37:26.731429+08:00","text":"林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員，林沛祥委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:37:27.031429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:37:30.460000+08:00","text":"接下來有請莊瑞雄委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":528,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時14分）謝謝主席翁召委。沒有真相，不應急著上架，是我對這次毒油事件的一致立場跟態度，所以首先我要請教衛福部次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：次長好。首先要提出的不僅是本席的疑問，同時也是很多地方首長的疑問，中聯油脂事件的真相還沒有完全釐清，衛福部目前急著要讓19批油品重新上架，食藥署表示，中聯今年4月到6月生產的30批大豆沙拉油當中，19批經過上游的原油、下游的產品檢驗以及批次流向的核對後，確認符合標準，因此可以重新上架。","本席是尊重科學的檢驗，只是面對食安，有三個是民眾都很關心的基本問題：第一，大家一直在問的是，請問污染源到底是在哪裡？第二，為什麼中聯的留樣檢驗報告跟下游產品的檢驗結果出現這麼大的落差？第三，業者有沒有隱匿、造假？政府的三級品管制度又是哪一個環節出了問題？中央急著要重新上架，真正執行的、面對群眾的地方政府怎麼向民眾保證這一定是安全的？民眾又憑什麼可以恢復信心？剛才本席所講的這幾點都還沒有釐清！","本席要請教次長的第一個問題是，衛福部是不是已經完全排除批次混油以及製程交叉污染的風險？如果污染的原因還沒有完全清楚，目前所取得的檢體合格是不是可以百分之百的代表整個下游的製品都安全？這個部分，您要不要先做一個回應？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員，其實依照食安法中對於油脂相關的標準，當然這一次中聯驗出來的那個部分是超標的，但是對於各家油品，我們後來處理的方式是，第一個，我們發現中聯之前每次通報給地方衛生局或者他自己的數字都說是合格的，但是在這個過程中，一批一批的發現有問題，所以才會從4月份到6月份我們全部先預防性下架。剛剛委員所提到的，我們其中驗出來中聯這邊確定不論是後來的第二層廠商或者是……應該說其他福懋、福壽甚至南僑驗到不合格的這幾個批次，我們確定就是不合格，所以一定要下架，而且已經啟動回收，再來要啟動銷毀，這是第一個部分。","第二個部分，這一次預防性下架的這30批裡面，我們取得了留樣，這個留樣就是從中聯一路下來，從中聯到福懋、中聯到福壽、中聯到泰山，這一邊福懋、福壽、泰山的留樣原油，也就是我們從他的第二層廠商這邊去取，這裡面的檢體我們委託後續做檢查，目前這幾批油的檢驗結果都符合我們食安法裡面所規定油脂中含苯駢芘的標準，所以在目前現行法規裡面，這些是符合的。剛剛委員……"],["林委員倩綺：所以本席剛剛提問的，污染到底是怎麼回事呢？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，當然專家這邊會用污染這個詞，不過再補充一下，其實這個部分就是在油品製造過程中，我們現在委託第三方去做中聯在HACCP每一個製造節點應該加什麼進去做處理是不是處理得不夠等等，這是專業上面正在做處理，我稍微……"],["林委員倩綺：所以現在面臨專業跟民眾認知有落差的情況下，對於目前你們思考要重新上架的油品是不是絕對安全，我想民眾是會有很大的疑慮。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員，我再稍微說明一下，第一個，這19批是我們現在拿到的原油樣本去檢驗的，不是在中聯的地方拿到原油樣本，目前驗出來是符合標準的，這是第一個事情。第二個事情，事實上，以現在來講，這個苯駢芘，目前認為在製程過程中有好幾個HACCP的節點應該要能夠讓這個苯駢芘的濃度往下降，可是他的處理不當。"],["林委員倩綺：好，本席講到的全面性問題是大家的疑慮，對民眾來講，他其實沒有必要去了解你所謂專業上的問題，大家的疑慮就是原因都還不知道！您剛才講的節點、斷點或者是中間的一些可能性，我想民眾對於這其中會不會還有一些問題其實是有一些疑慮的。"],["林次長靜儀：所以對於中聯，我們目前就是不會同意他復工，但是目前檢驗另外的這19批產品，我們現在驗到的是符合標準的。"],["林委員倩綺：目前整個供應鏈的誠信問題其實也還沒有完全釐清，重新上架的標準有沒有納入業者的誠信、製程的管理跟追溯資料的可靠性？還是只是依您所講的，重新檢驗合格就可以跟整個食安事件全部切割？"],["林次長靜儀：我想我們還是會全面性地去做更……未來在整個油品的品質上面，還有相關這些大型廠商的責任上面，去做更高的要求，當然我們也配合法務部去做檢查。"],["林委員倩綺：這個是未來嘛，但是針對剛才本席所講的，目前業者的誠信、製程的管理及資料的追溯，有在你們目前要重新上架的考量當中嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：有關於重新上架，先跟委員報告，我們在之前對於……還是要強調，中聯這邊驗到不合格的是不可能上架了，而且我們接下來要啟動銷毀。"],["林委員倩綺：對，你們如果把這個上架就太離譜了！"],["林次長靜儀：之前另外的……"],["林委員倩綺：本席所講的是你們現在重新上架的這個標準似乎看起來重新抽驗是合格的……"],["林次長靜儀：對。"],["林委員倩綺：但本席剛才所講的，業者的誠信、製程的管理跟追溯資料的可靠性，你們目前做了嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們現在正在進行，當然中聯這邊正在進行調查，但是……"],["林委員倩綺：所以是不是這個部分如果沒有很清楚的確認，這批油品先不要上架？要不然消費者對於這些油品有沒有毒，可能還是會有疑慮，所以本席在此先做個提醒。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，這19批檢驗合格。"],["林委員倩綺：我剛才的問題是目前唯一的要素就是檢驗合格，可是剛剛本席也提出來好幾個要素，你們應該在同時做一個處理，要不然你說未來、未來、未來，但是大家的疑慮就是已經有發生的，那是針對目前的毒油，大家的疑慮就是到底還有哪一些是可能有毒的，你們目前的說法就只有依據檢驗合格，但是本席剛才所講的幾個要素，本席在此也強烈建議你們應該同時做，請聽懂這個問題，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：最後是中央採取分批上架，可是地方政府必須面對大量的品項逐批來核對，反覆下架、上架的執行壓力，所以臺北、臺中、高雄等跨黨派的縣市政府都表示，我們應該先把真相釐清，確認食品安全無虞，然後才准上架。本席認為中央現階段沒有提供足以讓地方政府及消費者信服的完整資訊，在過程當中，我們看到中央跟地方大家都互推責任，這樣其實會引起地方政府在執行上的困難，所以本席要求衛福部不能只公布哪一些批次檢驗合格，還應該公布完整的污染原因、採樣方式、檢驗機構、上下游檢核的結果、流向清冊，以及重新上架之後持續檢驗的抽檢責任及追蹤機制。本席在此提醒，食品安全不是只有你們所謂的檢驗，而是整個供應鏈的信任、資訊透明跟責任釐清，所以本席還是站在和剛才一致的立場，沒有真相就不要急著上架，否則貿然重新上架，那只會讓地方政府承受很大的壓力，然後事情發生的時候，我們只有看到中央一直在推卸責任。本席已經先做了提醒，希望你們能夠同步把本席剛才建議的一些要素都考量進去，你們未來要怎麼做，我想經過這次事件應該有些檢討，但是對於民眾目前的疑慮，本席提供了幾個要素，也是讓你們可以同步更完整的去做一個處理。"],["林次長靜儀：不過，委員，我還是要再強調一下，依照現行食安法第四十一條，直轄市、縣市主管機關為確保食品安全……"],["林委員倩綺：你們可以講法條，但是本席一直講的是民眾的疑慮……"],["林次長靜儀：中央是在必要時來協助，所以中央跟地方政府一起努力，是非常重要的事情……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝次長，我想中央跟地方大家都在努力……"],["林次長靜儀：地方這邊的把關是我們第一線最重要的把關……"],["林委員倩綺：包括民眾所提出的問題也是我們可以參考的一個很重要的要件。"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們也會跟地方一起來要求。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。","接下來本席要來詢問一下消保處鍾處長、司法院的代表林廳長。"],["主席：請鍾處長和林廳長。"],["林委員倩綺：次長，您請回，謝謝。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：兩位，本席請教一個比較實際的問題，我想這次毒油事件發生，所有的民眾很關心的就是我們目前吃到的問題油要如何救濟，也就是重大事件的集體救濟問題，剛才有幾位委員提到，當然也有一些你們的回應，這次苯駢芘超標的事件是典型的受害人數龐大、個別損害很分散、舉證也很困難的一個案件，依照現行的消費者保護法第五十條，消保團體提起團體訴訟，原則上還是要先取得足夠的消費者跟損害賠償的請求權，現在問題是很多消費者其實連自己有沒有吃到問題油都很難確認，怎麼提出證明，甚至完成請求權的讓與？本席先請教一下消保處，從過去塑化劑、毒澱粉到這次的毒油，問題很相似，產品吃下去之後，購買憑證沒有保存，求償人數跟受影響人數嚴重的不成比例，本席認為現行以個別請求權為核心的團體訴訟制度，似乎沒有辦法來處理這樣一個很大的食安事件，那麼消保處會不會支持我們修正消費者保護法，針對主管機關公告的重大食安或公共衛生事件，允許具有資格的消保團體不必逐一取得請求權的讓渡，即以公益的名義來提起代表訴訟，追究企業責任？請問您的看法。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：報告委員，這個議題在消基會……因為消基會的代表也是我們行政院保護會的委員，他在我們委員會裡面也有提到跟委員相同的建議，後來我們在4月底的時候開了一個會，邀請學者專家，包含消基會代表及台消會的代表都有出席這個會議，司法院的代表也有出席這個會議。在裡面有一些……"],["林委員倩綺：本席接下來也會請教司法院。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：其中有一些議題，我們是持開放態度，就是我們希望這個議題能夠比較完整，包含這個提案裡面它的訴訟定性是什麼？比如它到底是一個損害賠償的訴訟，或者是一個不法利得追求的訴訟？這會跟後面整個條文的設計非常有關係，也相當的複雜。我們在4月開完以後，現在在整理一些國外的法制，還有我們自己委員的一些意見，希望後續能夠再持續的進行一些討論，先跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝你們的回應，我想你也認同本席所提出來的，應該也是在因應後續的狀況，會比較公允。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：我們會持續的再討論，請教一些學者專家跟消保團體，謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝考量這些因素。","接下來因為司法院在這個事件上也有參與，所以，針對這個問題，如果建立這類公益代表的訴訟，那麼司法體系有沒有準備好來處理不特定多數消費者的認定，還有損害範圍，以及後續加入求償的機制？先由法院來確認企業責任，然後再讓符合條件的消費者來加入，請求救濟，這個有沒有制度的可行性呢？"],["林廳長俊廷：是，跟委員報告，關於委員這個提議，在我國現行法制中確實沒有這樣的機制，它在現行的法理上面，最主要還會涉及到既判力的問題。根據現行法制，因為消費者把債權讓予給消保團體，消保團體去打了那個訴訟之後，那個既判力會及於個別消費者，因為對個別消費者來講，他真正要拿到的是那個債權、是那個賠償，如果用所謂的行政機關或特定團體的公益團體，這個金錢要怎麼分配茲事體大，所以這個既判力牽涉的範圍可能要從長計議，這是第一點，在現行法制、法理上有這樣的一個疑慮。當然制度設計如果能夠解除，可能要請教民事訴訟的學者專家，他們在這個制度設計上會有什麼樣的意見，是不是能夠克服剛才委員提到的這些問題，如果可以克服的話，制度設計妥當，那法院當然就是依法來處理。但是剛才委員提到的建議方向好像是兩階段，也就是說……"],["林委員倩綺：這個你們在先前的會議裡面有討論過嗎？就是本席這個看法。"],["林廳長俊廷：當時消保會與會的時候，就是有提到有消保團體建議公益團體訴訟，那我們有提供我們剛才所提到的疑慮，但因為當時消保會的議題是一個由某消費者團體提出的建議，其實那個內容並不明確，所以我們也沒有辦法就不明確的東西有太多的意見，我們只是提出可能的問題方向。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。那我想這應該是在法制上，對於整個修法或是個案引起可能的全面性問題的嚴謹態度，本席今天也提出一個看法跟建議，如果你們先前也沒有討論，或在討論的資料、內容上不是那麼明確，那本席提供這樣一個方向，或許你們也可以跟專家學者就民間現在可能發生的實際案例再做更進一步的討論，然後如果有一些比較具體的可能性，是不是也把相關的資料提供給本席研究室？謝謝。","最後，我們就針對第二個議題，就是國家投資跟利益衝突的一個制度上的問題，我想請教法務部鄭部長跟國發會汪執秘。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：部長、執秘好。本席最後來請教大家蠻關注的一個個案，當行政院官員二親等親屬任職的公司接受了行政院所屬國發基金2,000萬的投資，經濟部也有120萬補助的時候，我想社會大眾對於利益迴避制度究竟有沒有效也是提出很多疑問。當然剛才很多人也提出來，大家在質詢的時候提出一些比較細項的釐清，但是針對這案，依據我們目前知道的公開資料，這個公司在2022年就已經申請國發基金的創業天使投資方案，也獲得一個很特殊的數額1,999萬9,000元，然後在2024年又取得了經濟部商業發展署120萬的補助。那麼在這個過程當中，親屬關係有沒有據實揭露、審查人員有沒有知悉，還有整個程序是不是足以排除外界對利益輸送的合理懷疑？這是本席針對這個個案的前導說明。","本席先請教法務部部長，依據公職人員利益衝突迴避法第十四條，明定公職人員或其關係人，不得與其服務或受其監督之機關團體為補助、買賣、租賃、承攬或「其他具有對價之交易行為」。但符合例外情形，還是需要依法揭露身分的關係。國發會投資基金投資了又取得股權，在資金跟股權的互相交換上是不是有一些對價行為的疑慮？法務部對於政府基金股權投資是否適用於第十四條，有沒有正式的一些法律見解？看起來是行政機關自行詢問律師就認定不在規範的範圍，但現在的條文如果沒有辦法涵蓋，法務部是不是認為這應該是要儘速補上的一個法律制度漏洞，您的看法呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確，這個個案的問題現在監察院已經受理、在處理了，依據利衝法第二十條規定，這個個案，以這個來講是由監察院權管主政。因為不是法務部廉政署在處理，所以對這個個案的情形我們並不清楚，因為我們沒辦法去做調查再裁罰，所以事實上怎麼樣、是不是屬於第十四條，我們還要回歸到第十四條來看嘛！第十四條這個的確是限於公職人員或其關係人，有補助、買賣、租賃、承攬或其他具有對價之交易行為。這個投資顯然不在第十四條的範圍之內，投資這個行為，因為我們只能就第十四條這部分來做解釋，那麼是不是這部分，我們沒辦法做一個認定，因為這不是法務部權管處理的案子。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，了解。今天也比較可惜，監察院不在，所以我們沒有辦法對照來處理及因應解決這個問題。本席剛才所講的，如果是一個制度上的漏洞，可能是不是請法務部這邊，未來如果資訊上比較明朗的話，那再看看，假設有本席所講的這個情況，在修法的可能性上提供一些參考。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要請監察院認定，我們只能依照法律規定處理。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，本席提出來就是，如果啦！未來資訊比較明朗，有必要，那麼可能我們就針對修法的可能性再做討論，謝謝部長。比較可惜的是監察院今天沒有出席。","國發會，我還要再跟你請教一下，國發會在這個案子有外部專家的審議，但是外界今天還沒有看到整個審議委員的組成、利益迴避的紀錄、評估內容及投票結果，還有你們的簽核層級及投資之後的整個管理成效。所以本席跟你請教一下，你能不能承諾，向立法院完整提供本案的審查文件、審查程序、評估報告、簽核流程以及投資後的管理資料？如果行政院及其所屬機關沒有任何人做所謂的關說、指示及介入，那就應該能夠完整提供資料，接受國會跟社會的檢驗，而不是一直反覆、你們說程序合法，可是外界的疑慮還是在。這個部分您是否能夠承諾呢？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，非常謝謝委員的指正，對於大院的索資，我們一定都是在合法合規的範圍裡面盡全力提供。至於剛剛提到……"],["林委員倩綺：就是說您承諾這一案，如果我們針對剛才那些項目的資訊索資，應該你們是同意的嘛？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：容我報告一下，這裡面譬如他的申請文件裡面有涉及公司的營業秘密，這個我們同仁提供就會有法律上的……"],["林委員倩綺：應該我們沒有要求這個部分，而是整個國發會，在本席剛才所講那幾個要素你們的處理以及……你們講程序合法嘛！那我們就來確認一下你們講的程序合法，每一個要件，我們就更細節地做一些查詢跟認定，我想會讓外界的疑慮減低一點，好不好？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，好，非常謝謝，就是不涉及營業秘密這些，我們都會全力提供。"],["林委員倩綺：對，我們沒有要求所謂的營業秘密。我們沒有要求所謂的營業秘密，就是……"],["汪執行秘書庭安：但申請文件裡面是有這些東西。"],["林委員倩綺：就是公部門，你們針對本席剛才所講的，在允許範圍內，應該有些分際跟考量，對不對？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：好，那我們一定全力提供。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。最後，雖然監察院不在，本席也針對這一案請各機關分別就法律適用、監督調查及審查透明，希望後續能夠提供本席研究室比較明確的答復，好不好？謝謝。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。","接下來沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員不在。","林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員，林沛祥委員不在。","接下來有請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-26","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","張雅琳","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","范雲","許宇甄","洪毓祥","賴士葆","洪孟楷","劉書彬","林沛祥","沈發惠","蔡其昌","蔡春綢","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2026-07-23"],"gazette_id":"1156502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、司法院、行政院消費者保護處、衛生福利部食品藥物管\n理署就「中聯致癌油事件之偵辦調查、消費者權益及食安監管」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請監察院秘書長、法務部部長、經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、銓敘部部長就「現行\n公職人員利益衝突迴避暨離職公務員旋轉門機制之執行成效與法制缺失」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1156502_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}