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謝謝委員"},{"start":45.980000000000004,"end":48.980000000000004,"text":"我想這一次大家關注食安法修法"},{"start":48.980000000000004,"end":50.980000000000004,"text":"那我們今天已經把修法的查案"},{"start":50.980000000000004,"end":52.980000000000004,"text":"到行政院院會去做討論"},{"start":52.980000000000004,"end":53.980000000000004,"text":"主要幾個部分"},{"start":53.980000000000004,"end":55.980000000000004,"text":"我們這一次包含後面"},{"start":56.019999999999996,"end":58.019999999999996,"text":"還有在網際網路的一些管理"},{"start":58.019999999999996,"end":60.019999999999996,"text":"所以我們總共修17條"},{"start":60.019999999999996,"end":63.019999999999996,"text":"另外還會再新增一個食品業者"},{"start":63.019999999999996,"end":65.02,"text":"及認證認可"},{"start":65.02,"end":69.02,"text":"檢驗機構監測檢驗及通報管理辦法"},{"start":69.02,"end":70.02,"text":"簡單來說就是說"},{"start":70.02,"end":72.02,"text":"第一個部分我們再一次把"},{"start":72.02,"end":76.02,"text":"中央跟地方兩邊的這個權責做個劃分"},{"start":76.02,"end":78.02,"text":"另外尤其是在明定就是說"},{"start":78.02,"end":80.02,"text":"在這種重大食品安全事件的時候"},{"start":80.02,"end":83.02,"text":"中央這邊我們來成立一個相關應變指揮"},{"start":83.02,"end":85.02,"text":"來統籌全國"},{"start":85.06,"end":88.06,"text":"這一次事實上就對中央的一些"},{"start":88.06,"end":90.06,"text":"相關範圍有些難以釐清"},{"start":90.06,"end":92.06,"text":"第二個部分很重要的事情就是"},{"start":92.06,"end":93.06,"text":"我們增訂食品業者"},{"start":93.06,"end":95.06,"text":"他要有食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":95.06,"end":98.06,"text":"其中一定範圍一定規模的食品業者"},{"start":98.06,"end":100.06,"text":"第一個他要自設實驗室"},{"start":100.06,"end":102.06,"text":"第二個他的自設實驗室要經過驗證"},{"start":102.06,"end":104.06,"text":"然後第三個就是這一次"},{"start":104.06,"end":105.06,"text":"我們遇到會有延遲通報的問題"},{"start":105.06,"end":110.06,"text":"所以說在明定就是不論是被驗證的實驗室"},{"start":110.06,"end":113.06,"text":"或者是本身業者自主檢驗的實驗室"},{"start":113.10000000000001,"end":115.10000000000001,"text":"他都要在24小時之內"},{"start":115.10000000000001,"end":116.10000000000001,"text":"有發現問題的時候"},{"start":116.10000000000001,"end":118.10000000000001,"text":"24小時之內要通報主管機關"},{"start":118.10000000000001,"end":120.10000000000001,"text":"我的問題就來了就很簡單"},{"start":120.10000000000001,"end":122.10000000000001,"text":"站在民眾的一個立場的話"},{"start":122.10000000000001,"end":124.10000000000001,"text":"其實就是第一個食品業者"},{"start":124.10000000000001,"end":127.10000000000001,"text":"第二個你說我們有三級品管嘛"},{"start":127.10000000000001,"end":129.1,"text":"第一級品管我業者"},{"start":129.1,"end":132.1,"text":"我今天生產我今天是一個製造商"},{"start":132.1,"end":135.1,"text":"不管我叫中聯或者叫什麼樣的一個大同意"},{"start":135.1,"end":136.1,"text":"叫什麼樣的一個廠商"},{"start":136.1,"end":138.1,"text":"我東西做出來以後"},{"start":138.1,"end":140.1,"text":"我要自主去做一個檢驗嘛"},{"start":140.1,"end":141.1,"text":"那檢驗完了以後呢"},{"start":141.14,"end":143.14,"text":"該通報我們這一次看的是該通報的"},{"start":143.14,"end":144.14,"text":"他此言去做一個通報"},{"start":144.14,"end":147.14,"text":"那這一個地方我們現在改革的部分在哪裡"},{"start":147.14,"end":149.14,"text":"就是讓他24小時之內"},{"start":149.14,"end":151.14,"text":"他發現他的報告一場就要通報"},{"start":151.14,"end":152.14,"text":"就是要強制了"},{"start":152.14,"end":155.14,"text":"然後這家廠商自己廠商如果隱匿的話"},{"start":155.14,"end":157.14,"text":"有時候他是委託實驗室"},{"start":157.14,"end":159.14,"text":"實驗室24小時之內發現一場也要通報"},{"start":159.14,"end":161.14,"text":"那就變成到第二級"},{"start":161.14,"end":163.14,"text":"委託第三班公正單位的部分"},{"start":163.14,"end":165.14,"text":"也不能說我第三班公正單位我驗完以後"},{"start":165.14,"end":167.14,"text":"是你廠商來委託我的"},{"start":167.14,"end":169.14,"text":"所是我就交還給你這家廠商"},{"start":169.14,"end":170.14,"text":"然後你就給我放在抽屜裡"},{"start":170.17999999999998,"end":171.17999999999998,"text":"然後你就可以放在抽屜"},{"start":171.17999999999998,"end":173.17999999999998,"text":"那個現在就是我們現在碰到的一個問題"},{"start":173.17999999999998,"end":175.17999999999998,"text":"那所以這一次修法裡面"},{"start":175.17999999999998,"end":177.17999999999998,"text":"這些都會去做一個解決"},{"start":177.17999999999998,"end":178.17999999999998,"text":"那我問題來了"},{"start":178.17999999999998,"end":180.17999999999998,"text":"你說你這個監測計畫"},{"start":180.17999999999998,"end":182.17999999999998,"text":"監測計畫怎麼這麼瞎作業"},{"start":182.17999999999998,"end":185.17999999999998,"text":"監測計畫你怎麼樣去要求他落實"},{"start":185.17999999999998,"end":187.17999999999998,"text":"我監測就有了我全部都有了"},{"start":187.17999999999998,"end":189.17999999999998,"text":"比如你有來幫我調查"},{"start":189.17999999999998,"end":191.17999999999998,"text":"你如果沒有幫我調查的時候"},{"start":191.17999999999998,"end":193.17999999999998,"text":"我只要這個監測的話"},{"start":193.17999999999998,"end":197.17999999999998,"text":"你怎麼樣去確保他一個真正的去落實"},{"start":197.17999999999998,"end":199.17999999999998,"text":"否則這個大家都可以寫得很漂亮"},{"start":199.22,"end":200.22,"text":"第二項"},{"start":200.22,"end":202.22,"text":"第二項我要跟你請教的就是"},{"start":202.22,"end":205.22,"text":"你這個自主檢驗裡面"},{"start":205.22,"end":208.22,"text":"我們剛才說要求他去做一個強制的"},{"start":208.22,"end":210.22,"text":"但是有一個問題"},{"start":210.22,"end":212.22,"text":"就是說我們要去追蹤"},{"start":212.22,"end":214.22,"text":"我們這個追蹤的一個系統"},{"start":214.22,"end":217.22,"text":"我相信衛福部現在食藥署應該就有了"},{"start":217.22,"end":219.22,"text":"你這個追蹤的一個系統"},{"start":219.22,"end":221.22,"text":"你像比如說我這一批生產出來"},{"start":221.22,"end":225.22,"text":"我今天去手上切生產出來之後"},{"start":225.22,"end":227.22,"text":"那你這些追蹤系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批"},{"start":596.74,"end":598.74,"text":"到這些下游廠商以後"},{"start":598.74,"end":600.74,"text":"搞不好變幾千批"},{"start":600.74,"end":602.74,"text":"那對我第一線的地方"},{"start":602.78,"end":604.78,"text":"假設我是高雄市政府的話"},{"start":604.78,"end":605.78,"text":"我才有那麼多人力"},{"start":605.78,"end":606.78,"text":"人家給你買車"},{"start":606.78,"end":607.78,"text":"有這個問題"},{"start":607.78,"end":609.78,"text":"所以我看地方政府"},{"start":609.78,"end":611.78,"text":"他現在有所抗拒"},{"start":611.78,"end":612.78,"text":"他只是找出那個理由"},{"start":612.78,"end":613.78,"text":"你看起來覺得"},{"start":613.78,"end":614.78,"text":"不用擔心啊"},{"start":614.78,"end":615.78,"text":"我的政府"},{"start":615.78,"end":617.78,"text":"中央政府好像把你關保險"},{"start":617.78,"end":619.78,"text":"但我覺得最重要的是說"},{"start":619.78,"end":621.78,"text":"會搞得他們人羊馬翻的問題"},{"start":621.78,"end":622.78,"text":"所以應該啊"},{"start":622.78,"end":624.78,"text":"我們除了確保"},{"start":624.78,"end":626.78,"text":"民眾食的安全"},{"start":626.78,"end":629.78,"text":"就為食品安全來做一個把關以外"},{"start":629.78,"end":631.78,"text":"最重要的是人羊馬翻"},{"start":631.8199999999999,"end":632.8199999999999,"text":"最重要的是"},{"start":632.8199999999999,"end":634.8199999999999,"text":"如何去確保"},{"start":634.8199999999999,"end":635.8199999999999,"text":"上架的東西"},{"start":635.8199999999999,"end":637.8199999999999,"text":"你既然沒有人給他上架嘛"},{"start":637.8199999999999,"end":639.8199999999999,"text":"這方面你就要回去看嘛"},{"start":639.8199999999999,"end":640.8199999999999,"text":"你上架你就要跟他說"},{"start":640.8199999999999,"end":643.8199999999999,"text":"你民眾去從架上所買的東西"},{"start":643.8199999999999,"end":645.8199999999999,"text":"全部都符合標準的喔"},{"start":645.8199999999999,"end":647.8199999999999,"text":"第三就是說"},{"start":647.8199999999999,"end":648.8199999999999,"text":"那些下游業者"},{"start":648.8199999999999,"end":650.8199999999999,"text":"他們扣這些現存的"},{"start":650.8199999999999,"end":651.8199999999999,"text":"怎麼辦"},{"start":651.8199999999999,"end":652.8199999999999,"text":"政府很困難"},{"start":652.8199999999999,"end":655.8199999999999,"text":"政府你必須要保障食的安全"},{"start":655.8199999999999,"end":658.8199999999999,"text":"你政府又要去維護整個經濟的一個"},{"start":658.8199999999999,"end":660.8199999999999,"text":"正常的活動的一個秩序"},{"start":660.86,"end":661.86,"text":"考驗你們啊"},{"start":661.86,"end":663.86,"text":"這個都是在建立整個"},{"start":663.86,"end":664.86,"text":"人民對政府的一個"},{"start":664.86,"end":666.86,"text":"這一次食安危機裡面的一個信任感"},{"start":666.86,"end":667.86,"text":"加油一下"},{"start":667.86,"end":668.86,"text":"好嗎"},{"start":668.86,"end":669.86,"text":"中央跟地方"},{"start":669.86,"end":671.86,"text":"其實就是科學的一個依據啦"},{"start":671.86,"end":673.86,"text":"你們專業對專業去做一個溝通啦"},{"start":673.86,"end":675.86,"text":"那地方政府他受到的這一些啊"},{"start":675.86,"end":677.86,"text":"他們人力上的不足啊"},{"start":677.86,"end":679.86,"text":"或者他的一個擔憂啊"},{"start":679.86,"end":680.86,"text":"一個人一個人"},{"start":680.86,"end":681.86,"text":"說清楚啦"},{"start":681.86,"end":682.86,"text":"說清楚"},{"start":682.86,"end":683.86,"text":"專業對專業"},{"start":683.86,"end":684.86,"text":"有考考的一個建築過後"},{"start":684.86,"end":686.86,"text":"那個信心就會建立起來"},{"start":686.86,"end":689.86,"text":"我們也剛才交給這張報告"},{"start":689.9,"end":690.9,"text":"這有意義啦"},{"start":690.9,"end":691.9,"text":"好不好"},{"start":691.9,"end":692.9,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":692.9,"end":693.9,"text":"其實在設施食安法裡面"},{"start":693.9,"end":695.9,"text":"後來後面會在第二條那邊"},{"start":695.9,"end":696.9,"text":"第二條加上就是"},{"start":696.9,"end":698.9,"text":"像這一類重大事件"},{"start":698.9,"end":700.9,"text":"中央這邊變成是一個中央"},{"start":700.9,"end":701.9,"text":"有一個指揮中心的概念"},{"start":701.9,"end":702.9,"text":"我們跟地方政府"},{"start":702.9,"end":704.9,"text":"我們這樣有一個平行平台"},{"start":704.9,"end":706.9,"text":"一起把資訊做一個更好的直接溝通"},{"start":706.9,"end":708.9,"text":"對地方政府協助會比較大"},{"start":708.9,"end":709.9,"text":"你這如果創下好事之後"},{"start":709.9,"end":710.9,"text":"設個議會"},{"start":710.9,"end":712.9,"text":"那場遊行也會被你閉了"},{"start":712.9,"end":713.9,"text":"你創不好事之後"},{"start":713.9,"end":714.9,"text":"那人很多去你那裡發發"},{"start":714.9,"end":715.9,"text":"大家也沒民主"},{"start":715.9,"end":716.9,"text":"好不好"},{"start":716.9,"end":717.9,"text":"好"},{"start":717.9,"end":718.9,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":718.9,"end":719.9399999999999,"text":"謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:37:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:37:39.581818+08:00","text":"請衛福部林靜儀次長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:37:40.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:37:41.290000+08:00","text":"請林次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:37:41.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:37:44.206667+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:37:46.073333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:37:57.980000+08:00","text":"我要請教，我看行政院也針對於整個食品安全管理法，今天好像是行政院院會，接下來也要有修法。是。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:37:58.202222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:38:14.798182+08:00","text":"是不是你簡單講一下，你們針對這次食用油致癌物的殘留超標，以後整個食安法的修法，簡單來看，真正要把這個漏洞補起來的話，你的修法方向到底是怎麼樣？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:38:15.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:38:22.780000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，這一次大家關注的食安法修法，我們今天已經把修法草案送到行政院院會討論。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:38:22.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:38:59.860000+08:00","text":"主要有幾個部分，這次包含後面網際網路的一些管理，我們總共修17條，另外還會再新增一個「食品業者及認證（可）檢驗機構監測檢驗及通報管理辦法」，簡單來說，第一個部分，我們再一次把中央跟地方兩邊的權責做個劃分，尤其是明定在這種重大食品安全事件的時候，中央這邊我們成立一個相關的應變指揮……統籌全國，因為這次事實上地方跟中央的一些相關範圍有些難以釐清。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:39:00.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:39:27.918182+08:00","text":"第二個部分，很重要的事情是，我們增訂食品業者要有食品安全監測計畫，其中一定範圍、一定規模的食品業者，第一是他要自設實驗室；第二是他的自設實驗室要經過驗證；第三，這一次我們遇到的是會有延遲通報的問題，所以明定不論是被驗證的實驗室，或者業者本身自主檢驗的實驗室，有發現問題的時候，他都要在24小時之內通報主管機關。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:39:28.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:39:49.918182+08:00","text":"我的問題就來了，很簡單，站在民眾的立場其實就是，第一個是食品業者，第二個，你說我們有三級品管，第一級品管，我是業者、我今天是一個製造商，不管我叫中聯、大統益或者什麼樣的一個廠商，我東西做出來以後，我要自主去做檢驗嘛！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:39:50.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:39:54.028889+08:00","text":"檢驗完成以後該通報的，我們這次看到的是該通報的他遲延去做通報……對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:39:54.306667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:39:56.973333+08:00","text":"這方面，我們現在改革的部分在哪裡？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:39:57.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:00.986154+08:00","text":"就是讓他在24小時之內，他發現他的報告異常就要通報。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:01.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:01.973333+08:00","text":"就是要強制了。對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:02.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:09.006667+08:00","text":"然後廠商如果隱匿的話，有時候他是委託實驗室，實驗室24小時之內發現異常也要通報。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:09.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:23.062353+08:00","text":"那就變成到第二級，委託第三方公正單位的部分，也不能說我第三方公正單位驗完以後，是廠商你委託我的，我就交還給你這一家廠商，然後你就可以放在抽屜，這就是我們現在碰到的問題。是。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:23.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:26.980000+08:00","text":"這一次修法裡面，這些都會去做解決？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:26.980000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:27.980000+08:00","text":"對，全部做要求。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:27.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:31.998182+08:00","text":"好，那我的問題來了，你說監測計畫，那個監測計畫就好像在寫作業，你知不知道？","quality":0.469},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:32.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:34.965714+08:00","text":"監測計畫你怎麼樣去要求他落實啊？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:35.346667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:35.846667+08:00","text":"監測作業有啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:36.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:38.513333+08:00","text":"我全部都有，除非你來抽查我啊！","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:39.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:46.930000+08:00","text":"你如果沒來抽查我的話，我有……只有這個監測計畫，你怎麼樣確保他真正去落實？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:47.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:40:49.886667+08:00","text":"否則這個大家都可以寫得很漂亮，這是第一項。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:40:50.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:41:23.078182+08:00","text":"第二項我要跟你請教的就是，對於自主檢驗，我們現在要求他要強制檢驗了，但是有一個問題，就是我們要去追蹤，我相信現在衛福部食藥署應該就有了，這一個追蹤的系統，比如這一批生產出來，7月初生產出來之後，這一些追蹤系統，什麼時候要申報這個月生產的，時間點要放在什麼地方？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:41:23.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:41:35.037778+08:00","text":"如果今天7月1日生產出來，但是卻到下個月再來做申報，都吃進肚子裡了，這個部分你怎麼處理？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:41:35.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:41:38.010000+08:00","text":"我們目前的規定是次月、下一個月的10日之前，但是……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:41:38.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:41:40.010000+08:00","text":"是，但是問題來了。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:41:40.567692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:42:00.100000+08:00","text":"次長，我的問題就這麼簡單，我站在消費者的立場，現在政府部門相關的規定是，我生產出來以後，下個月10日要來做申報，萬一這一批生產出來的馬上出問題，出問題以後，下個月才申報，到時候你說要追蹤、你要去勾稽、流向到哪裡……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:42:00.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:42:01.300000+08:00","text":"後面還很麻煩……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:42:01.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:42:03.800000+08:00","text":"哪怕你有大數據、哪怕你有AI，都在肚子裡了，這要怎麼辦？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:42:04.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:42:31.140000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒，這個部分，我們在相關的子法規再去補強這一塊，這一次當然第一個事情是針對一定規模相關的業者，剛剛委員所提到的，我們要求它製程相關的部分，它的製程以及相關制定的檢驗辦法等等，監測計畫要由中央來核定，後續地方政府才比較有辦法去查，這是第一個。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:42:31.506667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:42:38.140000+08:00","text":"剛剛所提到，如果是像這一類業者，他的登錄追蹤系統這個部分，我們縮短他的時間，謝謝委員提醒這件事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:42:38.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:42:46.130000+08:00","text":"其實這一次，你看召委很用心把各部會都找來，連法務部也都找來，連鄭部長也來，我為什麼不叫他上來，你知道嗎？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:42:47.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:44:02.187273+08:00","text":"一般上台都是要質詢跟監督，他這次上來，我算是要給他鼓掌，因為這次法務部非常的迅速，馬上通令高檢署，因為這涉及到全國各個縣市裡面各個地檢署所管轄的，所以部長一下令給高檢署，高檢署叫那些地檢署馬上動起來以後，這次大家都說蓋牌，6月30日其實收到通報，7月1日行政部門就動起來了，這個硬要去講蓋牌，這其實都是過度的政治攻防，所以鄭部長雖然坐在那裡，也要稱讚你們，幸好法務部這次確實是非常的迅速，但重點是，我還是覺得這次修法裡面，我們也不是改個名詞而已，比如第四十一條裡面，風險的查核，你們現在說這叫做風險導向的查核，在食安法第四十一條裡面，預警的查核、抽樣，本來地方機關就可以去做突襲，這次修法以後，除非你要去增加比如人力、查核的頻率次數增加，不然這部分，我不知道你多增加了以後，能產生什麼樣的效益？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:44:02.823636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:44:27.318182+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個事情是這樣，這一次在第四十一條，之前是「得」，這一次我們就是修改為地方主管機關「應」配合辦理相關的這些措施，包含到食品業者的內部、廠商內部進行相關的調查跟檢查，查核之前，可以不用事先通知就進去，等於是一個突襲。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:44:27.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:44:48.358182+08:00","text":"另外，過去都是讓他自己自主，對於地方主管機關，我們這邊也是尊重地方主管機關去查的時間，不過我們接下來對於特定或者像這一類影響比較重大的一些食品業者，我們會訂定它的檢查頻率，頻次會加強，也會針對這個部分，請地方主管機關做比較強頻次的檢驗。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:44:49.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:44:56.540000+08:00","text":"本席認為還有一個很嚴肅的問題，我們本來是全面性、預防性的下架。是。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:44:57.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:45:43.477143+08:00","text":"全面性預防下架當然目的就是要確保國人的健康，但是也會碰到一個問題，下架完以後，這一排的全部都是上游廠商，譬如它叫做中聯、泰山、福壽、福懋，我們這邊那些叫做下游，全面都預防性下架以後，這些都是食品最下游的業者，他們是靠這些在生活的，你如何讓它去上架，現在這19批裡面，你認為抽檢完了，安全無虞，可是有地方政府就認為真相還沒有清楚，我不讓它上架，對於這些下游廠商來講，整個經濟交易的秩序、生產活動，你也要讓它繼續，這是第一個問題。是。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:45:43.731111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:45:48.220000+08:00","text":"第二個問題，地方如果認為他不要，你要怎麼辦？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:45:48.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:45:58.312308+08:00","text":"第三，有沒有辦法溝通到由政府來確保，只要上架的這一些，全部都是符合食品健康安全的？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:45:58.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:45:59.370000+08:00","text":"請教次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:46:00.286667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:46:01.286667+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:46:02.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:46:37.366667+08:00","text":"其實就是之前我們把所有能夠找到的這19批相關後續的檢體，但不是中聯的，就中聯提供的，我們不信，我們由其他另外三家留的原油原樣來做檢驗，現在就是確保這19批我們驗到的這些品項，其實都符合現在食安法裡面對於油脂的標準，所以這19批驗過就是符合標準，所以我們說它能夠重新上架，因為之前是預防性下架，謝謝委員考慮到，也謝謝法務部協助我們，因為這裡面其實大的這幾家油廠，我們要做比較強的課責。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:46:37.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:47:03.500000+08:00","text":"但是下面這些小型食品廠事實上是很辛苦，因為他們根本沒有辦法知道上面那邊發生這樣的事情，所以後來預防性下架之後，我們食藥署儘速把這邊檢驗完，這19批，我們今天會跟地方衛生局再做一些溝通，把相關的數據跟說明，我們自己委託的調查小組也會儘速把調查報告公開，讓大家能夠更有信心，同時也保障這些合法業者的權益。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:47:04.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:47:36.280000+08:00","text":"次長，我認為這一次其實真正的一個問題出在於「信任」……民眾對政府的信任是不是有所減損，不要小看這19批，19批，我們講的是中聯，可是19批到福懋、到福壽、到泰山，分出去搞不好又變成五、六百批，這3家五、六百批，到這些下游廠商以後，搞不好變幾千批，對我第一線的地方政府，假設我是高雄市政府，我哪有那麼多人力可以幫你處理這些？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:47:36.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:48:15.375556+08:00","text":"有這個問題，所以我看地方政府現在有所抗拒，他只是找出那個理由，你看起來覺得不用煩惱，認為中央政府敢跟你保證，但我覺得最重要的是，這是會搞得他們人仰馬翻的問題，所以我們除了確保民眾食的安全，就為食品安全來做把關以外，最重要的是如何確保上架的東西，你既然要讓他上架，政府就要拍胸脯保證，一上架，你就要跟他說，民眾從架上所買的東西全部都符合標準的。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:48:15.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:48:21.486667+08:00","text":"第三個，那些下游業者，他們靠這些在生存的，要怎麼辦？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:48:21.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:48:37.860000+08:00","text":"政府很困難，政府必須要保障食的安全，政府又要去維護整個經濟正常活動的秩序，考驗你們啦，這個都是在建立整個人民對政府這次食安危機裡面的一個信任感，加油一下，好不好？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:48:37.860000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:48:38.860000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:48:38.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:48:51.360000+08:00","text":"中央跟地方其實就是科學的一個依據，你們專業對專業去做溝通，地方政府所受到的這一些問題，包括他們人力上的不足，或者他的擔憂，一個人、一個人講清楚。是。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:48:52.193333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:49:01.566667+08:00","text":"能講得清楚，專業對專業，有科學的一個證據之後，那個信心就會建立起來，這樣召委召開這場的報告才有意義，好不好？","quality":0.646},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:49:01.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:49:02.650000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:49:02.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:49:18.718182+08:00","text":"其實在這次食安法裡面，後面會在第二條加上像這一類重大事件，中央這邊變成是有一個指揮中心的概念，我們跟地方政府有這樣一個平臺，一起把資訊做一個更好的直接溝通，對於地方政府協助也會比較大。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-23T10:49:18.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:49:26.566667+08:00","text":"你這個如果能夠做得好，7月25日那場的遊行，馬上讓你們比下去了，你做不好之後，人很多去那邊喊一喊，大家也沒面子，好不好？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T10:49:26.566667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:49:28.900000+08:00","text":"好，我們會趕進度，謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0.231},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:49:28.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T10:49:29.420000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊召委。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T10:49:29.920000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T10:49:33.062857+08:00","text":"接下來有請范雲委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時37分）請衛福部林靜儀次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要請教，我看行政院也針對於整個食品安全管理法，今天好像是行政院院會，接下來也要有修法。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是不是你簡單講一下，你們針對這次食用油致癌物的殘留超標，以後整個食安法的修法，簡單來看，真正要把這個漏洞補起來的話，你的修法方向到底是怎麼樣？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員，這一次大家關注的食安法修法，我們今天已經把修法草案送到行政院院會討論。主要有幾個部分，這次包含後面網際網路的一些管理，我們總共修17條，另外還會再新增一個「食品業者及認證（可）檢驗機構監測檢驗及通報管理辦法」，簡單來說，第一個部分，我們再一次把中央跟地方兩邊的權責做個劃分，尤其是明定在這種重大食品安全事件的時候，中央這邊我們成立一個相關的應變指揮……統籌全國，因為這次事實上地方跟中央的一些相關範圍有些難以釐清。","第二個部分，很重要的事情是，我們增訂食品業者要有食品安全監測計畫，其中一定範圍、一定規模的食品業者，第一是他要自設實驗室；第二是他的自設實驗室要經過驗證；第三，這一次我們遇到的是會有延遲通報的問題，所以明定不論是被驗證的實驗室，或者業者本身自主檢驗的實驗室，有發現問題的時候，他都要在24小時之內通報主管機關。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的問題就來了，很簡單，站在民眾的立場其實就是，第一個是食品業者，第二個，你說我們有三級品管，第一級品管，我是業者、我今天是一個製造商，不管我叫中聯、大統益或者什麼樣的一個廠商，我東西做出來以後，我要自主去做檢驗嘛！檢驗完成以後該通報的，我們這次看到的是該通報的他遲延去做通報……"],["林次長靜儀：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這方面，我們現在改革的部分在哪裡？"],["林次長靜儀：就是讓他在24小時之內，他發現他的報告異常就要通報。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就是要強制了。"],["林次長靜儀：對。然後廠商如果隱匿的話，有時候他是委託實驗室，實驗室24小時之內發現異常也要通報。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那就變成到第二級，委託第三方公正單位的部分，也不能說我第三方公正單位驗完以後，是廠商你委託我的，我就交還給你這一家廠商，然後你就可以放在抽屜，這就是我們現在碰到的問題。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這一次修法裡面，這些都會去做解決？"],["林次長靜儀：對，全部做要求。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，那我的問題來了，你說監測計畫，那個監測計畫就好像在寫作業，你知不知道？監測計畫你怎麼樣去要求他落實啊？監測作業有啊！我全部都有，除非你來抽查我啊！你如果沒來抽查我的話，我有……只有這個監測計畫，你怎麼樣確保他真正去落實？否則這個大家都可以寫得很漂亮，這是第一項。","第二項我要跟你請教的就是，對於自主檢驗，我們現在要求他要強制檢驗了，但是有一個問題，就是我們要去追蹤，我相信現在衛福部食藥署應該就有了，這一個追蹤的系統，比如這一批生產出來，7月初生產出來之後，這一些追蹤系統，什麼時候要申報這個月生產的，時間點要放在什麼地方？如果今天7月1日生產出來，但是卻到下個月再來做申報，都吃進肚子裡了，這個部分你怎麼處理？"],["林次長靜儀：我們目前的規定是次月、下一個月的10日之前，但是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，但是問題來了。次長，我的問題就這麼簡單，我站在消費者的立場，現在政府部門相關的規定是，我生產出來以後，下個月10日要來做申報，萬一這一批生產出來的馬上出問題，出問題以後，下個月才申報，到時候你說要追蹤、你要去勾稽、流向到哪裡……"],["林次長靜儀：後面還很麻煩……"],["莊委員瑞雄：哪怕你有大數據、哪怕你有AI，都在肚子裡了，這要怎麼辦？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員提醒，這個部分，我們在相關的子法規再去補強這一塊，這一次當然第一個事情是針對一定規模相關的業者，剛剛委員所提到的，我們要求它製程相關的部分，它的製程以及相關制定的檢驗辦法等等，監測計畫要由中央來核定，後續地方政府才比較有辦法去查，這是第一個。剛剛所提到，如果是像這一類業者，他的登錄追蹤系統這個部分，我們縮短他的時間，謝謝委員提醒這件事。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實這一次，你看召委很用心把各部會都找來，連法務部也都找來，連鄭部長也來，我為什麼不叫他上來，你知道嗎？一般上台都是要質詢跟監督，他這次上來，我算是要給他鼓掌，因為這次法務部非常的迅速，馬上通令高檢署，因為這涉及到全國各個縣市裡面各個地檢署所管轄的，所以部長一下令給高檢署，高檢署叫那些地檢署馬上動起來以後，這次大家都說蓋牌，6月30日其實收到通報，7月1日行政部門就動起來了，這個硬要去講蓋牌，這其實都是過度的政治攻防，所以鄭部長雖然坐在那裡，也要稱讚你們，幸好法務部這次確實是非常的迅速，但重點是，我還是覺得這次修法裡面，我們也不是改個名詞而已，比如第四十一條裡面，風險的查核，你們現在說這叫做風險導向的查核，在食安法第四十一條裡面，預警的查核、抽樣，本來地方機關就可以去做突襲，這次修法以後，除非你要去增加比如人力、查核的頻率次數增加，不然這部分，我不知道你多增加了以後，能產生什麼樣的效益？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，這個事情是這樣，這一次在第四十一條，之前是「得」，這一次我們就是修改為地方主管機關「應」配合辦理相關的這些措施，包含到食品業者的內部、廠商內部進行相關的調查跟檢查，查核之前，可以不用事先通知就進去，等於是一個突襲。另外，過去都是讓他自己自主，對於地方主管機關，我們這邊也是尊重地方主管機關去查的時間，不過我們接下來對於特定或者像這一類影響比較重大的一些食品業者，我們會訂定它的檢查頻率，頻次會加強，也會針對這個部分，請地方主管機關做比較強頻次的檢驗。"],["莊委員瑞雄：本席認為還有一個很嚴肅的問題，我們本來是全面性、預防性的下架。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：全面性預防下架當然目的就是要確保國人的健康，但是也會碰到一個問題，下架完以後，這一排的全部都是上游廠商，譬如它叫做中聯、泰山、福壽、福懋，我們這邊那些叫做下游，全面都預防性下架以後，這些都是食品最下游的業者，他們是靠這些在生活的，你如何讓它去上架，現在這19批裡面，你認為抽檢完了，安全無虞，可是有地方政府就認為真相還沒有清楚，我不讓它上架，對於這些下游廠商來講，整個經濟交易的秩序、生產活動，你也要讓它繼續，這是第一個問題。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：第二個問題，地方如果認為他不要，你要怎麼辦？第三，有沒有辦法溝通到由政府來確保，只要上架的這一些，全部都是符合食品健康安全的？請教次長。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。其實就是之前我們把所有能夠找到的這19批相關後續的檢體，但不是中聯的，就中聯提供的，我們不信，我們由其他另外三家留的原油原樣來做檢驗，現在就是確保這19批我們驗到的這些品項，其實都符合現在食安法裡面對於油脂的標準，所以這19批驗過就是符合標準，所以我們說它能夠重新上架，因為之前是預防性下架，謝謝委員考慮到，也謝謝法務部協助我們，因為這裡面其實大的這幾家油廠，我們要做比較強的課責。但是下面這些小型食品廠事實上是很辛苦，因為他們根本沒有辦法知道上面那邊發生這樣的事情，所以後來預防性下架之後，我們食藥署儘速把這邊檢驗完，這19批，我們今天會跟地方衛生局再做一些溝通，把相關的數據跟說明，我們自己委託的調查小組也會儘速把調查報告公開，讓大家能夠更有信心，同時也保障這些合法業者的權益。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，我認為這一次其實真正的一個問題出在於「信任」……民眾對政府的信任是不是有所減損，不要小看這19批，19批，我們講的是中聯，可是19批到福懋、到福壽、到泰山，分出去搞不好又變成五、六百批，這3家五、六百批，到這些下游廠商以後，搞不好變幾千批，對我第一線的地方政府，假設我是高雄市政府，我哪有那麼多人力可以幫你處理這些？有這個問題，所以我看地方政府現在有所抗拒，他只是找出那個理由，你看起來覺得不用煩惱，認為中央政府敢跟你保證，但我覺得最重要的是，這是會搞得他們人仰馬翻的問題，所以我們除了確保民眾食的安全，就為食品安全來做把關以外，最重要的是如何確保上架的東西，你既然要讓他上架，政府就要拍胸脯保證，一上架，你就要跟他說，民眾從架上所買的東西全部都符合標準的。第三個，那些下游業者，他們靠這些在生存的，要怎麼辦？政府很困難，政府必須要保障食的安全，政府又要去維護整個經濟正常活動的秩序，考驗你們啦，這個都是在建立整個人民對政府這次食安危機裡面的一個信任感，加油一下，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：好，謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：中央跟地方其實就是科學的一個依據，你們專業對專業去做溝通，地方政府所受到的這一些問題，包括他們人力上的不足，或者他的擔憂，一個人、一個人講清楚。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：能講得清楚，專業對專業，有科學的一個證據之後，那個信心就會建立起來，這樣召委召開這場的報告才有意義，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。其實在這次食安法裡面，後面會在第二條加上像這一類重大事件，中央這邊變成是有一個指揮中心的概念，我們跟地方政府有這樣一個平臺，一起把資訊做一個更好的直接溝通，對於地方政府協助也會比較大。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你這個如果能夠做得好，7月25日那場的遊行，馬上讓你們比下去了，你做不好之後，人很多去那邊喊一喊，大家也沒面子，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：好，我們會趕進度，謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊召委。","接下來有請范雲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-26","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","張雅琳","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","范雲","許宇甄","洪毓祥","賴士葆","洪孟楷","劉書彬","林沛祥","沈發惠","蔡其昌","蔡春綢","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2026-07-23"],"gazette_id":"1156502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、司法院、行政院消費者保護處、衛生福利部食品藥物管\n理署就「中聯致癌油事件之偵辦調查、消費者權益及食安監管」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請監察院秘書長、法務部部長、經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、銓敘部部長就「現行\n公職人員利益衝突迴避暨離職公務員旋轉門機制之執行成效與法制缺失」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1156502_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}