{"error":false,"id":["170703"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170703,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170703","日期":"2026-07-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-26","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":26,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-23T11:23:40+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-23T11:37:22+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:42","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7cefb85d66825e78213b5190c132949df952d29ff77f22d7669a48ea8244716a172f596e3a4508175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"11:23:40 - 11:37:22","會議時間":"2026-07-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、司法院、行政院消費者保護處、衛生福利部食品藥物管理署就「中聯致癌油事件之偵辦調查、消費者權益及食安監管」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請監察院秘書長、法務部部長、經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、銓敘部部長就「現行公職人員利益衝突迴避暨離職公務員旋轉門機制之執行成效與法制缺失」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月22日及23日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.40971875,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.68284375,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.80034375,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.394718750000003,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.47034375,"end":25.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.769718750000003,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.300968750000003,"end":73.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":73.82534375,"end":78.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.32284375,"end":76.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.87096875,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":82.61721875,"end":86.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":87.52784375,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.86346875000001,"end":107.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":108.53721875000001,"end":111.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":112.41846875,"end":115.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":115.43909375000001,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":119.97846875,"end":121.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.93596875,"end":127.85909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":129.64784375000002,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":132.65159375000002,"end":144.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":146.01659375,"end":149.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.18471875,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.03159375,"end":158.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":158.40284375000002,"end":158.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.61346875,"end":162.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.65534375000001,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.63534375,"end":195.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.76409375,"end":196.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.19846875000002,"end":199.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":199.29096875000002,"end":200.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.56909375,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.51784375000003,"end":206.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.87221875,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":207.74534375000002,"end":208.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.99409375000002,"end":211.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.20034375,"end":216.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":215.76096875000002,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.80284375000002,"end":219.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":220.78971875000002,"end":223.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.92409375000003,"end":242.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.69096875000002,"end":234.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.03096875000003,"end":244.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":243.38534375,"end":254.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":256.61534375,"end":258.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":258.69096875,"end":259.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":262.36971875,"end":262.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.00659375000004,"end":264.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":264.07409375000003,"end":265.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.45784375,"end":266.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":266.03159375,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":266.06534375,"end":266.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":269.18721875,"end":273.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":275.85284375000003,"end":281.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.98346875000004,"end":278.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":281.62409375000004,"end":282.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":282.95721875000004,"end":290.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":291.15846875,"end":292.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":293.38596875,"end":311.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":313.77096875,"end":314.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":315.76221875000005,"end":317.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.33159375,"end":317.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":317.51721875000004,"end":318.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.68159375000005,"end":318.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.07784375,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":323.79471875,"end":326.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.19096875,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":332.65409375,"end":335.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.09284375000004,"end":333.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.75034375,"end":346.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":348.80346875000004,"end":354.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":357.24096875000004,"end":358.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":358.84409375,"end":361.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":364.14284375,"end":366.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.96909375,"end":372.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":372.42846875000004,"end":381.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":381.64221875000004,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":386.08034375,"end":389.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.79284375000003,"end":396.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.39096875,"end":402.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.02284375000005,"end":405.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.24596875000003,"end":408.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.04721875,"end":416.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.06284375,"end":419.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":419.13846875,"end":426.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.54221875,"end":427.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.45346875,"end":442.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":442.56096875000003,"end":445.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":446.27346875,"end":463.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":463.85721875,"end":465.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":466.92846875000004,"end":468.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":469.72971875,"end":470.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":471.72096875000005,"end":473.34096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":473.77971875000003,"end":495.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":496.03784375000004,"end":509.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":510.04409375000006,"end":512.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":512.9128437500001,"end":520.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":522.31221875,"end":524.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":525.26534375,"end":528.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":528.9778437500001,"end":530.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":531.86346875,"end":536.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":537.43221875,"end":539.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":542.39346875,"end":543.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":544.9584687500001,"end":550.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.16034375,"end":549.5147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.79721875,"end":550.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":552.5522187500001,"end":561.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.66471875,"end":562.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.0990937500001,"end":564.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":565.56284375,"end":570.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":569.93346875,"end":573.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.5915937500001,"end":571.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.76409375,"end":574.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":574.9284687500001,"end":577.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":577.57784375,"end":579.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":579.06284375,"end":579.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":579.3159687500001,"end":580.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.8347187500001,"end":581.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":581.1047187500001,"end":582.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":582.03284375,"end":582.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":583.19721875,"end":588.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":586.8928437500001,"end":588.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":589.47471875,"end":593.8115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.14909375,"end":596.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":596.96721875,"end":602.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.58659375,"end":605.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":606.3328437499999,"end":607.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.38346875,"end":607.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":607.2778437500001,"end":607.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":607.2947187500001,"end":607.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":607.48034375,"end":607.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":607.49721875,"end":618.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":618.19596875,"end":622.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":620.6597187500001,"end":621.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":623.0053437500001,"end":637.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":637.3490937500001,"end":637.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":638.46284375,"end":638.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":638.4797187500001,"end":644.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.33096875,"end":664.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":663.5053437500001,"end":665.9522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.5347187500001,"end":676.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":676.4990937500002,"end":683.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.3003437500001,"end":680.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":681.6965937500001,"end":696.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":688.9697187500001,"end":690.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.9853437500001,"end":702.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":702.2165937500001,"end":703.4990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.53284375,"end":705.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":705.6928437500001,"end":708.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.46471875,"end":714.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":710.1984687500001,"end":710.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":715.4465937500001,"end":718.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":716.8134687500001,"end":722.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.36096875,"end":728.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":727.3772187500001,"end":738.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":733.89096875,"end":735.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":735.9497187500001,"end":752.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":742.2609687500001,"end":743.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.47034375,"end":752.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":752.48721875,"end":762.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":757.4484687500001,"end":759.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.8447187500001,"end":759.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.8953437499999,"end":760.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.0047187499999,"end":770.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":766.37534375,"end":767.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":769.4465937500001,"end":774.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.61096875,"end":770.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.10409375,"end":795.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":797.5265937500001,"end":799.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.43346875,"end":806.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":806.31846875,"end":815.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":815.1272187500001,"end":820.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":820.69596875,"end":822.2990937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0,"end":13,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請經濟部跟聯政署"},{"start":13,"end":21,"text":"麻煩請經濟部的政次江政次 還有聯政署"},{"start":21,"end":22,"text":"委員好"},{"start":22,"end":24,"text":"聯政署署長"},{"start":24,"end":27,"text":"聯政署署長 謝謝署長"},{"start":27,"end":32,"text":"我想這個題目在我們經濟委員會擔任召委的時候"},{"start":32,"end":35,"text":"也有排過類似這樣的機制"},{"start":35,"end":37,"text":"我想我今天延續了"},{"start":37,"end":42,"text":"因為可能在這個委員會沒有看過這個案子的全貌"},{"start":42,"end":45,"text":"其實就是整個在蘇巧淳這樣的案子"},{"start":45,"end":50,"text":"我想在這個經濟部還有從來底下的國發會"},{"start":50,"end":52,"text":"這些都清楚"},{"start":52,"end":57,"text":"重點並不是說蘇巧淳因為是這個蘇巧慧的妹妹"},{"start":57,"end":58,"text":"蘇貞昌的女兒"},{"start":58,"end":61,"text":"她不能夠申請補助"},{"start":61,"end":64,"text":"這一點一定要嚴正視聽"},{"start":64,"end":67,"text":"也就是說這個只要是公開的對不對"},{"start":67,"end":71,"text":"公平 不管它是補助案 投資 交易等等"},{"start":71,"end":73,"text":"她都有資格"},{"start":73,"end":77,"text":"這個是要確認 不要被亂洗的"},{"start":77,"end":78,"text":"並不是她不可以"},{"start":78,"end":82,"text":"可以 現在的問題就是在今天的利充法這邊"},{"start":82,"end":85,"text":"那這個利充法我們上次已經都談過了"},{"start":85,"end":87,"text":"整個這個過程"},{"start":87,"end":89,"text":"我們假設先不看國發會"},{"start":89,"end":91,"text":"我們先看跟經濟部有關的"},{"start":91,"end":93,"text":"在商發署補助"},{"start":93,"end":97,"text":"不管是礦石智能 微爐科技這邊"},{"start":97,"end":99,"text":"大概都是成立的 也沒有問題"},{"start":99,"end":101,"text":"但是有問題的是"},{"start":101,"end":105,"text":"這個在我們利充法的規範裡頭"},{"start":105,"end":108,"text":"它必須要去揭露"},{"start":108,"end":110,"text":"也就是說我在申請案件的時候"},{"start":110,"end":114,"text":"它要揭露 我是利害關係人"},{"start":114,"end":115,"text":"所以它要填表"},{"start":115,"end":118,"text":"所以當時商發署也有回說"},{"start":118,"end":120,"text":"有些表格要填"},{"start":120,"end":121,"text":"但是很不幸的"},{"start":121,"end":124,"text":"它這個蘇巧淳等等這個案子"},{"start":124,"end":126,"text":"它是沒有填"},{"start":126,"end":129,"text":"那你們給我的回覆是"},{"start":129,"end":131,"text":"它填到哪裡去呢"},{"start":131,"end":135,"text":"就是它認為這一塊地方來講的話"},{"start":135,"end":139,"text":"我在你們的這個監察院的"},{"start":139,"end":140,"text":"公職員 關係人"},{"start":140,"end":142,"text":"補助教育跟身份關於查詢平台"},{"start":142,"end":146,"text":"是查不到這一筆的資料"},{"start":146,"end":148,"text":"那這個東西它認為"},{"start":148,"end":150,"text":"這個要由廉政署"},{"start":150,"end":153,"text":"來做一些事法上的一個詮釋"},{"start":153,"end":156,"text":"那我不曉得這個後續的回應處理"},{"start":156,"end":160,"text":"廉政署這邊處理了嗎"},{"start":160,"end":162,"text":"是 跟委員報告"},{"start":162,"end":166,"text":"依照我們公職人員利益衝突回避法"},{"start":166,"end":169,"text":"第14條的第一項的規定"},{"start":169,"end":171,"text":"公職人員或其關係人"},{"start":171,"end":173,"text":"不得與公職人員服務"},{"start":173,"end":175,"text":"或授旗監督機關團體"},{"start":175,"end":179,"text":"為補助 買賣 租賃 承攬"},{"start":179,"end":182,"text":"或其他具有對價關係的行為"},{"start":182,"end":185,"text":"它前提是必須要符合這一些的規定"},{"start":185,"end":188,"text":"才有後續的一個揭露"},{"start":188,"end":190,"text":"那個揭露也不是全部都"},{"start":190,"end":191,"text":"所有都要揭露"},{"start":191,"end":196,"text":"是符合這裡第一項所列的一至三款"},{"start":196,"end":199,"text":"這樣的條件才有揭露的一個義務"},{"start":199,"end":201,"text":"所以你認為不需要揭露"},{"start":201,"end":203,"text":"要看它什麼樣的一線"},{"start":203,"end":205,"text":"如果符合的話是要揭露"},{"start":205,"end":206,"text":"它就是符合啦"},{"start":206,"end":208,"text":"如果不符合的話就不需要"},{"start":208,"end":209,"text":"它就是符合啦"},{"start":209,"end":210,"text":"那這一件是不是符合"},{"start":210,"end":212,"text":"這個不是我們全管"},{"start":212,"end":215,"text":"這個是屬於主管機關它全管的範圍"},{"start":215,"end":216,"text":"我沒有辦法"},{"start":216,"end":217,"text":"所以它推給你啊"},{"start":217,"end":220,"text":"不是推這個法律規定如此"},{"start":220,"end":223,"text":"它的回覆給我的是說廉政署啊"},{"start":225,"end":229,"text":"我們不是對於這個實際上的補助"},{"start":229,"end":231,"text":"或者是什麼投資行為"},{"start":231,"end":232,"text":"我們不是它的機關"},{"start":232,"end":234,"text":"你是投資啊這是補助耶補助耶"},{"start":234,"end":235,"text":"我們不是它的機關"},{"start":235,"end":238,"text":"我們是法我們對這個法律的規定是如此"},{"start":238,"end":241,"text":"我是跟委員報我們對法律解釋如此"},{"start":241,"end":243,"text":"至於個案它是否"},{"start":243,"end":246,"text":"你的第14條第3款就寫啦"},{"start":246,"end":248,"text":"法定身分依法院公聽申請補助"},{"start":248,"end":251,"text":"公職人員是關係人依法令規定"},{"start":251,"end":253,"text":"公開公平方式辦理之補助"},{"start":253,"end":255,"text":"這些是要揭露的啊"},{"start":256,"end":258,"text":"你不揭露是要罰的捏"},{"start":258,"end":260,"text":"我不是罰你啦"},{"start":262,"end":263,"text":"是吧"},{"start":263,"end":266,"text":"這個因為這個是個案的問題"},{"start":266,"end":267,"text":"這不是個案"},{"start":267,"end":268,"text":"又來了"},{"start":269,"end":271,"text":"每次法務部你都跟我講個案"},{"start":271,"end":274,"text":"連任署也跟我講個案都叫個案"},{"start":276,"end":277,"text":"因為我們沒有這一家"},{"start":277,"end":278,"text":"我上網去查"},{"start":278,"end":279,"text":"我上網去查"},{"start":279,"end":283,"text":"我們很多委員都很守法"},{"start":283,"end":286,"text":"監察院這裡頭總共7000多個案件我去查的"},{"start":286,"end":287,"text":"對不對"},{"start":287,"end":290,"text":"A立委關係機會承接台電採購法"},{"start":291,"end":292,"text":"依法揭露啊"},{"start":293,"end":297,"text":"某個立委關係人他只是某某學校的董事啊"},{"start":297,"end":300,"text":"那學校取得國科會的補助啊"},{"start":300,"end":302,"text":"按照產創的條例"},{"start":302,"end":303,"text":"對不對"},{"start":303,"end":304,"text":"科學技術基本法"},{"start":304,"end":305,"text":"促餐法等等"},{"start":305,"end":306,"text":"他都有揭露啊"},{"start":306,"end":307,"text":"77萬都有揭露"},{"start":307,"end":309,"text":"260萬都有揭露"},{"start":309,"end":311,"text":"199.9萬不用揭露"},{"start":313,"end":314,"text":"這叫個案"},{"start":315,"end":317,"text":"現在是跟你討論機制耶"},{"start":317,"end":319,"text":"法就定在這裡"},{"start":320,"end":321,"text":"我沒有他們"},{"start":321,"end":323,"text":"我沒有他們實際上這一個"},{"start":323,"end":326,"text":"所以是三八署沒有把資料給你"},{"start":326,"end":327,"text":"對我們沒有這個資料"},{"start":327,"end":329,"text":"他的全管單位我們並不是全管單位"},{"start":329,"end":331,"text":"我沒有辦法去認定說"},{"start":331,"end":333,"text":"到底他是什麼樣的一個法律行為"},{"start":333,"end":335,"text":"來三八署經濟部有沒有"},{"start":337,"end":339,"text":"跟委員報告這個個案"},{"start":339,"end":342,"text":"因為是涉及到立法委員的話"},{"start":342,"end":344,"text":"就是在監察院"},{"start":344,"end":346,"text":"個案會在監察院處理"},{"start":348,"end":350,"text":"我只是叫你公開而已耶"},{"start":350,"end":352,"text":"你的立充法這邊是公開"},{"start":352,"end":354,"text":"你去把法條看清楚"},{"start":357,"end":358,"text":"你們都給我"},{"start":358,"end":361,"text":"你再這樣子我經委會找我再排一次"},{"start":364,"end":367,"text":"然後再請我們這個翁仁再聯席好了"},{"start":369,"end":371,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":371,"end":372,"text":"第一個呢"},{"start":372,"end":374,"text":"我現在不是跟你討論個案"},{"start":374,"end":375,"text":"我現在就是機制"},{"start":375,"end":377,"text":"所以我上次你們也答應我"},{"start":377,"end":378,"text":"會跟聯政署"},{"start":378,"end":379,"text":"聯政署我派代表來喔"},{"start":379,"end":381,"text":"不是署長來"},{"start":381,"end":382,"text":"我派代表來"},{"start":382,"end":384,"text":"他說你們兩個會回去研究"},{"start":384,"end":385,"text":"上次是這個"},{"start":385,"end":387,"text":"我不曉得是哪一個次長"},{"start":387,"end":389,"text":"應該是何次還是賴次這樣子"},{"start":389,"end":392,"text":"跟委員報告我們確實會後有做"},{"start":392,"end":395,"text":"您關心我們有做檢討"},{"start":395,"end":396,"text":"第一個呢"},{"start":396,"end":397,"text":"因為呢"},{"start":397,"end":401,"text":"這個我們現在就是按照委員的要求"},{"start":401,"end":405,"text":"我們要清查過去五年所有的補助案件"},{"start":405,"end":408,"text":"這個第一個現在已經開始啟動"},{"start":408,"end":409,"text":"另外還有呢"},{"start":409,"end":412,"text":"其實我們部裡面各個機關"},{"start":412,"end":415,"text":"都有這些揭露的這個網頁"},{"start":415,"end":416,"text":"但是"},{"start":416,"end":417,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":417,"end":419,"text":"沒有你揭露網頁沒關係"},{"start":419,"end":420,"text":"揭露網頁可以慢慢做"},{"start":420,"end":422,"text":"但是起碼可以上到監察院"},{"start":422,"end":424,"text":"剛剛我列的這個平台"},{"start":424,"end":426,"text":"因為上次是"},{"start":427,"end":430,"text":"剛剛您關心的案件呢"},{"start":430,"end":435,"text":"其實監察院已經有主動來請經濟部提供相關的資訊"},{"start":435,"end":438,"text":"我們也依照監察院的來函提供了相關的資訊"},{"start":438,"end":442,"text":"現在已經都給監察院在進行相關的調查"},{"start":442,"end":445,"text":"對因為他如果沒有揭露的話"},{"start":445,"end":448,"text":"在這個第19條"},{"start":448,"end":451,"text":"律從法的第18條是罰你們機關"},{"start":451,"end":453,"text":"罰商務署"},{"start":453,"end":456,"text":"然後第19條是罰個人"},{"start":456,"end":457,"text":"比如說他還是拒不提供嘛"},{"start":457,"end":458,"text":"對不對"},{"start":458,"end":459,"text":"申請人這個不提供"},{"start":459,"end":461,"text":"我有什麼很生氣的地方是說"},{"start":461,"end":463,"text":"上次我已經講過了"},{"start":463,"end":466,"text":"我們審查委員審東西啊"},{"start":466,"end":468,"text":"我要先填什麼"},{"start":468,"end":471,"text":"有沒有利益迴避嘛"},{"start":471,"end":473,"text":"我要填我要揭露嘛"},{"start":473,"end":476,"text":"我們審查委員都要填都要揭露"},{"start":476,"end":479,"text":"申請人他更應該要揭露"},{"start":479,"end":481,"text":"申請人揭露了之後"},{"start":481,"end":484,"text":"我作為一個審查委員明白有這層關係"},{"start":484,"end":486,"text":"只是明白"},{"start":486,"end":489,"text":"但不影響我審查他這個案子是不是"},{"start":489,"end":492,"text":"符合這個補助的要旨"},{"start":492,"end":495,"text":"如果他公司的產品服務能力很好"},{"start":495,"end":497,"text":"該補就要補啊"},{"start":497,"end":499,"text":"我不會因為他是總統的女兒"},{"start":499,"end":501,"text":"什麼什麼行政院長的兒子"},{"start":501,"end":502,"text":"這跟那個也沒關係"},{"start":502,"end":504,"text":"是跟他的技術能力有關係"},{"start":504,"end":506,"text":"這一點是要肯定啊"},{"start":506,"end":509,"text":"因為審查委員是從專業去弄"},{"start":509,"end":512,"text":"那可是如果審查人不知道"},{"start":512,"end":514,"text":"我覺得這個就不對嘛"},{"start":514,"end":516,"text":"所以立法法這邊的話"},{"start":516,"end":517,"text":"他規定的是這樣"},{"start":517,"end":519,"text":"你事後也可以公開啊"},{"start":519,"end":521,"text":"補也可以啊"},{"start":521,"end":524,"text":"所以我要追的是這件事情啊"},{"start":524,"end":526,"text":"再麻煩連任署"},{"start":526,"end":527,"text":"連任署"},{"start":527,"end":529,"text":"我再問一個"},{"start":529,"end":531,"text":"請經濟部請回"},{"start":531,"end":534,"text":"然後呢我想要問一下連任署"},{"start":534,"end":537,"text":"上次呢我是沒有在公開講"},{"start":537,"end":540,"text":"我們就拿這一個來看"},{"start":542,"end":544,"text":"我請問一下"},{"start":544,"end":548,"text":"什麼叫做具有對價之交易行為"},{"start":548,"end":549,"text":"你的認知"},{"start":549,"end":552,"text":"那個經濟部請回沒關係"},{"start":552,"end":554,"text":"我關於具有"},{"start":554,"end":557,"text":"這個關於這一條的一個法律的規定"},{"start":557,"end":559,"text":"它是有補助買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":559,"end":563,"text":"或其他具有對價關係的交易行為"},{"start":563,"end":566,"text":"那所謂具有對價關係的交易行為"},{"start":566,"end":567,"text":"它有兩個部份"},{"start":567,"end":569,"text":"一個具有對價關係"},{"start":569,"end":570,"text":"一個是交易行為"},{"start":570,"end":571,"text":"那我簡單問好了"},{"start":571,"end":574,"text":"我用一個個例子啦"},{"start":574,"end":577,"text":"假設你開一家公司嘛"},{"start":577,"end":579,"text":"我投資500萬嘛"},{"start":579,"end":581,"text":"我換得你的股票嘛"},{"start":581,"end":583,"text":"這算不算對價交易"},{"start":583,"end":584,"text":"那不一定"},{"start":584,"end":586,"text":"那我跟有人解釋一下"},{"start":586,"end":587,"text":"那個對價通常"},{"start":587,"end":589,"text":"那你先告訴我試的是什麼"},{"start":589,"end":591,"text":"我現在跟您解釋"},{"start":591,"end":592,"text":"對價的關係"},{"start":592,"end":594,"text":"像買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":594,"end":597,"text":"它會有一個大概一個市場的價格"},{"start":597,"end":598,"text":"所以我們去交易的話"},{"start":598,"end":600,"text":"它會有所謂的對價"},{"start":600,"end":601,"text":"但是投資的項目"},{"start":601,"end":602,"text":"它可能就很廣"},{"start":602,"end":605,"text":"它有它也許有具有它的一個政策目的"},{"start":605,"end":606,"text":"做的投資"},{"start":606,"end":609,"text":"我們跟你講政策目的你在對號入座"},{"start":609,"end":610,"text":"我現在就講的是一般"},{"start":610,"end":611,"text":"我就投資你的公司"},{"start":611,"end":612,"text":"我付你500萬"},{"start":612,"end":614,"text":"然後取得你的股票20張"},{"start":614,"end":615,"text":"我們兩個合意的嘛"},{"start":615,"end":618,"text":"這算不算對價之交易行為啦"},{"start":618,"end":620,"text":"那我想這個對這個投資"},{"start":620,"end":622,"text":"你只要回答是或不是啦"},{"start":622,"end":625,"text":"投資它的一個定義法律"},{"start":625,"end":627,"text":"並沒有一個明確的規定"},{"start":627,"end":631,"text":"你看那個在民法買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":631,"end":634,"text":"它都有一個民法都有規定"},{"start":634,"end":635,"text":"但是投資並沒有"},{"start":635,"end":637,"text":"部長這樣解釋可以嗎"},{"start":637,"end":638,"text":"我不曉得部長"},{"start":638,"end":641,"text":"我現在付500萬買股票"},{"start":641,"end":644,"text":"換得你20張算不算對價交易"},{"start":644,"end":646,"text":"我想這個事實"},{"start":646,"end":648,"text":"這個是委員所關心的是"},{"start":648,"end":651,"text":"一個事實的一個認定"},{"start":651,"end":653,"text":"那這部分還在研議"},{"start":653,"end":656,"text":"那我們回到14條來一個看"},{"start":656,"end":658,"text":"他說其他具有對價之交易行為"},{"start":658,"end":661,"text":"前面有講利是就是買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":661,"end":662,"text":"這個在民法規定"},{"start":662,"end":663,"text":"這是一個雙無其一"},{"start":663,"end":664,"text":"我們要管前面"},{"start":664,"end":665,"text":"前面有多清楚"},{"start":665,"end":666,"text":"就是一個利是"},{"start":666,"end":668,"text":"從這個民法這個裡面"},{"start":668,"end":669,"text":"從那個買賣租賃承攬"},{"start":669,"end":672,"text":"就可以看出是不是一個對價的交易行為"},{"start":672,"end":675,"text":"這不但是要雙方的一個對價"},{"start":675,"end":676,"text":"而且他必須有一個"},{"start":676,"end":678,"text":"所以我們現在可以跟"},{"start":678,"end":679,"text":"念法律的人說"},{"start":679,"end":680,"text":"我花500萬"},{"start":680,"end":682,"text":"然後換得公司股票20張"},{"start":682,"end":685,"text":"這個利是這個不準確啦"},{"start":685,"end":688,"text":"這個還是需要做一個個案上的認定"},{"start":688,"end":690,"text":"我現在要問說"},{"start":690,"end":692,"text":"這個是認定的權利"},{"start":692,"end":694,"text":"是在屬於監察院"},{"start":694,"end":696,"text":"我們沒辦法幫監察院回答這個問題"},{"start":696,"end":698,"text":"這個確定我們"},{"start":698,"end":700,"text":"這是行政的認定權"},{"start":700,"end":702,"text":"他的認定權以及要不要裁判"},{"start":702,"end":703,"text":"你知道我在問哪一個案子喔"},{"start":703,"end":704,"text":"我知道啊"},{"start":704,"end":705,"text":"但是你舉例說明啊"},{"start":705,"end":707,"text":"我都還沒說你就知道"},{"start":707,"end":708,"text":"我在問哪一個案子"},{"start":708,"end":709,"text":"我剛才在那邊聽"},{"start":709,"end":710,"text":"我就可以看出來"},{"start":710,"end":711,"text":"哪一個"},{"start":711,"end":714,"text":"剛才就是一個投資的行為嘛"},{"start":714,"end":717,"text":"哪一個案子是有投資行為"},{"start":717,"end":718,"text":"我剛才在問雙方行為"},{"start":718,"end":719,"text":"我想這部分委員關心的"},{"start":719,"end":721,"text":"應該今天剛才各位委員"},{"start":721,"end":722,"text":"已經都問得蠻多了嘛"},{"start":722,"end":723,"text":"所以這個一個"},{"start":723,"end":726,"text":"我們回歸到那個第14條的這些的"},{"start":726,"end":727,"text":"我也不要耽誤時間啦"},{"start":727,"end":729,"text":"我想說你們今天的回答一樣"},{"start":729,"end":731,"text":"不然我們下次就請司法修法好了"},{"start":731,"end":733,"text":"我們也看看這個"},{"start":733,"end":738,"text":"投資的話不算對價交易行為"},{"start":738,"end":739,"text":"這個一個交易行為"},{"start":739,"end":741,"text":"這個一定要合乎到"},{"start":741,"end":742,"text":"這都會公報喔"},{"start":742,"end":744,"text":"對價的一個交易的行為"},{"start":744,"end":746,"text":"那這部分要合乎這個定義"},{"start":746,"end":748,"text":"那我們只能就法條上"},{"start":748,"end":750,"text":"就做一個解釋嘛"},{"start":750,"end":751,"text":"來一個觀察"},{"start":751,"end":754,"text":"所以以後我們如果要規避這種"},{"start":754,"end":755,"text":"利害關係法"},{"start":755,"end":756,"text":"規避這種"},{"start":756,"end":757,"text":"這個法律規定的很準喔"},{"start":757,"end":759,"text":"我只要買賣股票"},{"start":759,"end":761,"text":"然後交易這樣就不算了嘛"},{"start":761,"end":762,"text":"這個是"},{"start":762,"end":764,"text":"這個就是一個很明確的"},{"start":764,"end":765,"text":"一個法律的一個規定"},{"start":765,"end":766,"text":"我當然知道啊"},{"start":766,"end":767,"text":"這很明確的規定"},{"start":767,"end":768,"text":"所以他這個買"},{"start":768,"end":770,"text":"所以我現在在問你說對價交易行為"},{"start":770,"end":771,"text":"你的認定是說"},{"start":771,"end":772,"text":"我投資股"},{"start":772,"end":773,"text":"投資你全"},{"start":773,"end":774,"text":"我沒辦法"},{"start":774,"end":775,"text":"我沒辦法在這個裡面的"},{"start":775,"end":778,"text":"假設問題去做一個認定"},{"start":778,"end":779,"text":"我想這就經過"},{"start":779,"end":780,"text":"當然要經過這個認定"},{"start":780,"end":782,"text":"當然要經過討論跟研議"},{"start":782,"end":784,"text":"是不是從個案上是不是有"},{"start":784,"end":786,"text":"有成立這樣的法條的"},{"start":786,"end":788,"text":"這樣的一個規定"},{"start":788,"end":790,"text":"那所以說在這我沒辦法就是說"},{"start":790,"end":792,"text":"舉一個例就認為這就是一個交易"},{"start":792,"end":793,"text":"只有有對價的交易"},{"start":793,"end":794,"text":"或者沒有對價交易"},{"start":794,"end":796,"text":"這我沒辦法做這樣的一個回答"},{"start":797,"end":799,"text":"所以你的答案就是不知道"},{"start":799,"end":800,"text":"不是說不知道"},{"start":800,"end":803,"text":"這個要再做一個研議嘛"},{"start":803,"end":804,"text":"這個還在"},{"start":804,"end":805,"text":"因為個案我們並不清楚"},{"start":805,"end":806,"text":"這個個案到底是怎樣"},{"start":806,"end":807,"text":"好啦我今天終於上了一個"},{"start":807,"end":809,"text":"非常珍貴的法學課"},{"start":809,"end":810,"text":"好不好"},{"start":810,"end":813,"text":"投資500萬換得股票20張"},{"start":813,"end":815,"text":"不算交易對價"},{"start":815,"end":817,"text":"這個我沒辦法去回答這個問題"},{"start":817,"end":819,"text":"我沒有就是說是或不是"},{"start":819,"end":820,"text":"我沒辦法去回答"},{"start":820,"end":822,"text":"好謝謝洪委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}