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話……我在監察院公職人員及關係人補助交易身分關係公開及查詢平臺查不到這筆資料，他認為這要由廉政署做適法上的詮釋，我不曉得後續的回應處理，廉政署這邊處理了嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:26:20.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:26:58.785714+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，依照公職人員利益衝突迴避法第十四條第一項的規定，公職人員或其關係人不得與公職人員服務或受其監督機關團體為補助、買賣、租賃、承攬或其他具有對價關係的行為，前提是必須要符合這些規定，才有後續的揭露，那個揭露也不是全部所有都要揭露，而是符合本條第一項第一款至第三款所列的條件，才有揭露的義務。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:26:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:00.800000+08:00","text":"所以你認為不需要揭露？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:04.800000+08:00","text":"要看是什麼樣的條件，如果符合的話，是要揭露的……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:05.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:05.666667+08:00","text":"就是符合了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:07.818182+08:00","text":"如果不符合的話，就不需要……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:08.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:08.666667+08:00","text":"他就是符合了！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:09.111111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:15.800000+08:00","text":"這件是不是符合，不是我們權管，是屬於主管機關權管的範圍，我沒辦法……我不曉得它的內容。","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:16.857143+08:00","text":"所以他推給你啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:19.727273+08:00","text":"不是推，法律規定如此。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:20.923077+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:22.538462+08:00","text":"他給我的回復是說廉政署。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:31.875000+08:00","text":"我們不是對於這個實際上的補助或者是什麼投資行為，我們不是他的主管機關……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:32.153846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:33.846154+08:00","text":"不是投資，這是補助，補助耶！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:40.800000+08:00","text":"我們不是他的主管機關，這個法律的規定是如此，跟委員報告，我們對法律的解釋是如此。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:27:42.714286+08:00","text":"至於個案是否……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:27:43.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:28:02.500000+08:00","text":"第十四條第一項第三款就寫了，「基於法定身分依法令規定申請之補助；或對公職人員之關係人依法令規定以公開公平方式辦理之補助……」，這些是要揭露的，不揭露是要罰的，不是罰你，是吧？","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:28:03.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:28:05.750000+08:00","text":"因為這是個案的問題，我們沒有相關……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:28:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:28:07.666667+08:00","text":"這不是個案，又來了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:28:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:28:13.769231+08:00","text":"每次法務部都跟我講個案，廉政署也跟我講個案，都在個案！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:28:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:28:16.777778+08:00","text":"因為我們沒有這一件案子當時……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:28:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:28:45.666667+08:00","text":"我上網去查，我們很多委員都很守法，監察院這裡頭總共七千多個案件，我去查了，A立委關係企業承接台電採購，依法揭露；某個立委關係人只是某某學校的董事，學校取得國科會的補助，按照產創條例、科學技術基本法、促參法等等，都有揭露。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:28:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:28:50.666667+08:00","text":"77萬都有揭露、260萬都有揭露，199.9萬不用揭露？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:28:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:28:53.750000+08:00","text":"這叫個案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:28:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:28:58.666667+08:00","text":"現在是跟你討論機制，法就定在這裡！","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:29:02.818182+08:00","text":"我們沒有他們實際上這個……沒有機會……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:29:05.769231+08:00","text":"所以是商發署沒有把資料給你？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:29:12.857143+08:00","text":"對，我們沒有這個資料，我們並不是權管單位，沒有辦法認定到底他是什麼樣的法律行為。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:29:14.800000+08:00","text":"來，商發署、經濟部，有沒有？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳副署長秘順","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:29:25.777778+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個個案因為涉及到立法委員，就是在監察院，個案會在監察院處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:29:33.750000+08:00","text":"我只是叫你公開而已，利衝法這邊是公開，去把法條看清楚！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:29:46.800000+08:00","text":"你再這樣子，我當經委會召委再排一次，然後我請翁召委再聯席好了。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"江次長文若","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:29:50.818182+08:00","text":"報告委員，謝謝委員的關心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"江次長文若","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:29:51.500000+08:00","text":"第一個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:29:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:30:03.818182+08:00","text":"我現在不是跟你討論個案，我現在是就機制，上次你們也答應我會跟廉政署……廉政署有派代表來，不是署長來，有派代表來，他說你們兩個會回去研究。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:30:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:30:08.333333+08:00","text":"上次我不曉得是哪一個次長，應該是何次還是賴次。","quality":1},{"speaker":"江次長文若","start":"2026-07-23T11:30:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:30:27.769231+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，您關心，我們確實會後有做檢討，第一個，我們現在就是按照委員的要求，清查過去5年所有的補助案件，這是第一個，現在這樣已經開始啟動。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"江次長文若","start":"2026-07-23T11:30:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:30:37.200000+08:00","text":"另外，其實我們部裡面各個機關都有揭露的網頁，但是沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:30:37.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:30:45.600000+08:00","text":"揭露網頁沒關係，揭露網頁可以慢慢做，但是起碼可以上到剛剛我列的監察院這個平臺，因為上次是。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"江次長文若","start":"2026-07-23T11:30:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:31:01.764706+08:00","text":"針對剛剛您關心的案件，其實監察院已經有主動請經濟部提供相關資訊，我們也依照監察院的來函提供了相關資訊，現在已經都給監察院在進行相關調查。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:31:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:31:17.666667+08:00","text":"對，因為如果沒有揭露的話，利衝法第十八條是罰你們機關，罰商發署，第十九條是罰個人，比如申請人還是拒不提供，對不對？","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:31:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:31:38.700000+08:00","text":"我很生氣的地方是上次我已經講過了，審查委員審東西要先填有沒有利益迴避，要填、要揭露，審查委員都要填、都要揭露，申請人更應該要揭露。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:31:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:32:08.500000+08:00","text":"申請人揭露了之後，作為審查委員，明白有這層關係，只是明白，但不影響審查這個案子是不是符合補助的要旨，如果公司的產品、服務、能力很好，該補助就要補助，不會因為申請人是總統的女兒、行政院長的兒子，跟這點沒關係，是跟他的技術能力有關係，這一點是要肯定，因為審查委員是從專業去考量，對不對？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:32:09.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:32:13.555556+08:00","text":"可是如果審查委員不知道，我覺得這個就不對。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:32:14.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:32:23.500000+08:00","text":"利衝法的規定是這樣，事後也可以公開，補也可以，我要追的是這件事情。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:32:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:32:28.600000+08:00","text":"再麻煩廉政署，我再問一個。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:32:29.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:32:30.666667+08:00","text":"經濟部請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:32:31.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:32:47.692308+08:00","text":"我想要問一下廉政署，上次我沒有公開講，我們就拿第十四條來看，請問一下，就你的認知，什麼叫做具有對價關係之交易行為？","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:32:49.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:32:50.800000+08:00","text":"經濟部請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:32:53.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:09.857143+08:00","text":"有關於這一條的法律規定「補助、買賣、租賃、承攬或其他具有對價關係之交易行為」，所謂具有對價關係之交易行為有兩個部分，一個是具有對價關係，一個是交易行為，所以有對價關係……","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:33:10.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:10.857143+08:00","text":"我簡單問好了，沒關係。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:33:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:22.750000+08:00","text":"我用一個例子，假設你開一家公司，我投資500萬換得你的股票，這算不算對價交易？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:33:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:26.833333+08:00","text":"那不一定，我跟委員解釋一下，那個對價，通常像買賣……","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:33:27.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:28.818182+08:00","text":"你先告訴我是的是什麼。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:33:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:45.750000+08:00","text":"我現在跟您解釋，對價的關係，像買賣、租賃、承攬會有一個大概的市場價格，所以去交易的話，會有所謂的對價，但是投資的項目可能就很廣，也許是具有政策目的做的投資……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:33:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:48.800000+08:00","text":"我沒有跟你講政策目的，你在對號入座。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:33:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:54.875000+08:00","text":"我現在講的是一般我投資你的公司，我付你500萬，然後我取得你公司股票20張，這是我們兩個合意的嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:33:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:57.500000+08:00","text":"這算不算對價之交易行為？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:33:58.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:33:59.800000+08:00","text":"我想這個投資本身……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:34:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:34:01.600000+08:00","text":"你只要回答是或不是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝署長名冠","start":"2026-07-23T11:34:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:34:14.857143+08:00","text":"投資的定義在法律上並沒有一個明確的規定，像民法的買賣、租賃、承攬，民法都有規定，但是投資並沒有規定。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:34:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:34:16.777778+08:00","text":"部長，這樣解釋可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:34:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:34:23.727273+08:00","text":"我現在付500萬買股票，換得你公司股票20張，算不算對價交易？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:34:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:34:42.500000+08:00","text":"我想委員所關心的是一個事實的認定，但這部分還在研議，我們回到第十四條來看，裡面提到「其他具有對價之交易行為」，前面有例示，就是買賣、租賃、承攬，這個在民法規定上是一個雙務契約……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:34:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:34:44.833333+08:00","text":"我沒有要管前面，前面我都清楚。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:34:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:34:55.875000+08:00","text":"這就是一個例示，從民法裡面、從買賣、租賃、承攬，就可以看出是不是一種對價的交易行為，基本上就是要有雙方的一個對價，而且必須要有一個交易的……","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:34:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:01.777778+08:00","text":"所以現在可以跟念法律的人說，我花500萬，然後換得公司股票20張……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:04.700000+08:00","text":"委員舉這個例子不夠準確啦！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:05.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:07.800000+08:00","text":"還是需要做一個個案上的認定……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:07.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:10+08:00","text":"我沒有要討論個案，我現在只是問……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:21.666667+08:00","text":"這個認定的權力是屬於監察院，我們沒辦法幫監察院回答這個問題，這是行政的認定權以及要不要裁罰……","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:22.916667+08:00","text":"你知道我在問哪一個案子喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:23.750000+08:00","text":"我知道啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:24.875000+08:00","text":"但是你舉例說明啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:27.875000+08:00","text":"我都還沒說你就知道我在問哪一個案子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:28.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:29.857143+08:00","text":"剛才我在那邊聽就可以看得出來……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:30.666667+08:00","text":"哪一個？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:33.500000+08:00","text":"剛才就是一個投資的行為……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:36.727273+08:00","text":"哪一個案子是有投資行為？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:37.444444+08:00","text":"我剛剛在問商發署……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:45.769231+08:00","text":"我想委員關心的剛才各位委員都已經問得滿多了，所以我們回歸到第十四條的……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:35:57.583333+08:00","text":"我也不要耽誤時間了，我想你們今天的回答都一樣，不然下次就請司法委員會修法好了，我們也來看看投資不算是對價交易行為……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:35:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:36:00.750000+08:00","text":"這個交易行為一定要合乎到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:36:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:36:01.833333+08:00","text":"這會列入公報喔！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:36:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:36:10.800000+08:00","text":"對價的交易行為，這部分要合乎這個定義，那我們只能就法條上來做一個解釋、來做一個觀察。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:36:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:36:20.636364+08:00","text":"所以以後我們如果要規避這種利害關係、規避這種貪污，只要買賣股票然後交易，這樣就不算了？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:36:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:36:24.888889+08:00","text":"這就是一個很明確的法律規定……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:36:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:36:25.833333+08:00","text":"我當然知道啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:36:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:36:32.500000+08:00","text":"所以我現在問你對價交易行為，部長的認定是說，我投資你錢……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:36:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:36:55.846154+08:00","text":"我沒辦法就假設的問題去做一個認定，這當然要經過討論跟研議，看看個案是不是有法條規定的成立，所以無法舉一個例就認為這就是一個交易、就有對價的交易或者沒有對價交易，我沒辦法做這樣一個回答。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:36:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:36:58.818182+08:00","text":"所以你的答案就是不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:36:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:37:05.888889+08:00","text":"不是說不知道，而是這還要再做一個研議，因為我們並不清楚這個個案到底是怎麼樣。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-23T11:37:06.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:37:14.666667+08:00","text":"我今天終於上了一個非常珍貴的法學課，我投資500萬換得股票20張，不算交易、對價，謝謝。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:37:18.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:37:19.857143+08:00","text":"是或不是，我沒辦法去回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:37:20.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:37:21.666667+08:00","text":"謝謝洪委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:37:22.166667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:37:29.023810+08:00","text":"部長，對價關係在法律上有很清楚的定義，您剛剛這樣子講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:37:29.323810+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:37:31.038095+08:00","text":"買賣、租賃、承攬……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:37:31.338095+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:37:49.623810+08:00","text":"這不只是買賣、租賃、承攬，包含等價性、交換性等等，都是具有對價，好，就這個部分，希望您之後可以再提供給我們一份……就是法律上什麼叫對價關係的解釋，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:37:49.923810+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:12.780952+08:00","text":"因為洪委員有提出，就請法務部來解釋對價關係在實務上還有法律上，我們現在所認定的對價關係是什麼、涵蓋哪些範圍等等，請提供一份報告給我們司委會，然後我會再轉給所有委員們做參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:13.080952+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:16.795238+08:00","text":"接下來我們請賴士葆委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":796,"blocks":[["洪委員毓祥：（11時23分）謝謝主席，請經濟部跟廉政署。"],["主席：麻煩請經濟部江政次、廉政署署長。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["洪委員毓祥：關於這個題目，我在經濟委員會擔任召委的時候也有排過類似這樣機制的會議，我想我今天延續了……可能這個委員會沒有看過這個案子的全貌，其實針對蘇巧純這樣的案子，我想經濟部及坐在底下的國發會都清楚，重點並不是蘇巧純因為是蘇巧慧的妹妹、蘇貞昌的女兒就不能夠申請補助，這一點一定要嚴正視聽，也就是說，只要是公開、公平的，不管是補助案、投資、交易等等，他都有資格，這個要確認，不要被亂寫，並不是他不可以，他是可以的。","現在的問題就是在今天討論的利衝法，我們上次已經都談過了。整個過程假設先不看國發會，我們先看跟經濟部有關的，商發署不管是補助曠世智能、威如科技，大概都是成立的，也沒有問題，有問題的是在利衝法的規範裡頭必須要揭露的部分，也就是說，在申請案件的時候要揭露利害關係人，所以要填表，因此當時商發署也有回說有些表格要填，但是很不幸地，蘇巧純等等案子沒有填。你們給我的回復是，他填到哪裡去呢？就是他認為這塊地方來講的話……我在監察院公職人員及關係人補助交易身分關係公開及查詢平臺查不到這筆資料，他認為這要由廉政署做適法上的詮釋，我不曉得後續的回應處理，廉政署這邊處理了嗎？"],["謝署長名冠：跟委員報告，依照公職人員利益衝突迴避法第十四條第一項的規定，公職人員或其關係人不得與公職人員服務或受其監督機關團體為補助、買賣、租賃、承攬或其他具有對價關係的行為，前提是必須要符合這些規定，才有後續的揭露，那個揭露也不是全部所有都要揭露，而是符合本條第一項第一款至第三款所列的條件，才有揭露的義務。"],["洪委員毓祥：所以你認為不需要揭露？"],["謝署長名冠：要看是什麼樣的條件，如果符合的話，是要揭露的……"],["洪委員毓祥：就是符合了。"],["謝署長名冠：如果不符合的話，就不需要……"],["洪委員毓祥：他就是符合了！"],["謝署長名冠：這件是不是符合，不是我們權管，是屬於主管機關權管的範圍，我沒辦法……我不曉得它的內容。"],["洪委員毓祥：所以他推給你啊！"],["謝署長名冠：不是推，法律規定如此。"],["洪委員毓祥：他給我的回復是說廉政署。"],["謝署長名冠：我們不是對於這個實際上的補助或者是什麼投資行為，我們不是他的主管機關……"],["洪委員毓祥：不是投資，這是補助，補助耶！"],["謝署長名冠：我們不是他的主管機關，這個法律的規定是如此，跟委員報告，我們對法律的解釋是如此。至於個案是否……"],["洪委員毓祥：第十四條第一項第三款就寫了，「基於法定身分依法令規定申請之補助；或對公職人員之關係人依法令規定以公開公平方式辦理之補助……」，這些是要揭露的，不揭露是要罰的，不是罰你，是吧？"],["謝署長名冠：因為這是個案的問題，我們沒有相關……"],["洪委員毓祥：這不是個案，又來了！每次法務部都跟我講個案，廉政署也跟我講個案，都在個案！"],["謝署長名冠：因為我們沒有這一件案子當時……"],["洪委員毓祥：我上網去查，我們很多委員都很守法，監察院這裡頭總共七千多個案件，我去查了，A立委關係企業承接台電採購，依法揭露；某個立委關係人只是某某學校的董事，學校取得國科會的補助，按照產創條例、科學技術基本法、促參法等等，都有揭露。77萬都有揭露、260萬都有揭露，199.9萬不用揭露？這叫個案？現在是跟你討論機制，法就定在這裡！"],["謝署長名冠：我們沒有他們實際上這個……沒有機會……"],["洪委員毓祥：所以是商發署沒有把資料給你？"],["謝署長名冠：對，我們沒有這個資料，我們並不是權管單位，沒有辦法認定到底他是什麼樣的法律行為。"],["洪委員毓祥：來，商發署、經濟部，有沒有？"],["陳副署長秘順：跟委員報告，這個個案因為涉及到立法委員，就是在監察院，個案會在監察院處理。"],["洪委員毓祥：我只是叫你公開而已，利衝法這邊是公開，去把法條看清楚！你再這樣子，我當經委會召委再排一次，然後我請翁召委再聯席好了。"],["江次長文若：報告委員，謝謝委員的關心。第一個……"],["洪委員毓祥：我現在不是跟你討論個案，我現在是就機制，上次你們也答應我會跟廉政署……廉政署有派代表來，不是署長來，有派代表來，他說你們兩個會回去研究。上次我不曉得是哪一個次長，應該是何次還是賴次。"],["江次長文若：跟委員報告，您關心，我們確實會後有做檢討，第一個，我們現在就是按照委員的要求，清查過去5年所有的補助案件，這是第一個，現在這樣已經開始啟動。另外，其實我們部裡面各個機關都有揭露的網頁，但是沒有……"],["洪委員毓祥：揭露網頁沒關係，揭露網頁可以慢慢做，但是起碼可以上到剛剛我列的監察院這個平臺，因為上次是。"],["江次長文若：針對剛剛您關心的案件，其實監察院已經有主動請經濟部提供相關資訊，我們也依照監察院的來函提供了相關資訊，現在已經都給監察院在進行相關調查。"],["洪委員毓祥：對，因為如果沒有揭露的話，利衝法第十八條是罰你們機關，罰商發署，第十九條是罰個人，比如申請人還是拒不提供，對不對？我很生氣的地方是上次我已經講過了，審查委員審東西要先填有沒有利益迴避，要填、要揭露，審查委員都要填、都要揭露，申請人更應該要揭露。申請人揭露了之後，作為審查委員，明白有這層關係，只是明白，但不影響審查這個案子是不是符合補助的要旨，如果公司的產品、服務、能力很好，該補助就要補助，不會因為申請人是總統的女兒、行政院長的兒子，跟這點沒關係，是跟他的技術能力有關係，這一點是要肯定，因為審查委員是從專業去考量，對不對？可是如果審查委員不知道，我覺得這個就不對。利衝法的規定是這樣，事後也可以公開，補也可以，我要追的是這件事情。","再麻煩廉政署，我再問一個。經濟部請回。我想要問一下廉政署，上次我沒有公開講，我們就拿第十四條來看，請問一下，就你的認知，什麼叫做具有對價關係之交易行為？經濟部請回。"],["謝署長名冠：有關於這一條的法律規定「補助、買賣、租賃、承攬或其他具有對價關係之交易行為」，所謂具有對價關係之交易行為有兩個部分，一個是具有對價關係，一個是交易行為，所以有對價關係……"],["洪委員毓祥：我簡單問好了，沒關係。我用一個例子，假設你開一家公司，我投資500萬換得你的股票，這算不算對價交易？"],["謝署長名冠：那不一定，我跟委員解釋一下，那個對價，通常像買賣……"],["洪委員毓祥：你先告訴我是的是什麼。"],["謝署長名冠：我現在跟您解釋，對價的關係，像買賣、租賃、承攬會有一個大概的市場價格，所以去交易的話，會有所謂的對價，但是投資的項目可能就很廣，也許是具有政策目的做的投資……"],["洪委員毓祥：我沒有跟你講政策目的，你在對號入座。我現在講的是一般我投資你的公司，我付你500萬，然後我取得你公司股票20張，這是我們兩個合意的嘛！這算不算對價之交易行為？"],["謝署長名冠：我想這個投資本身……"],["洪委員毓祥：你只要回答是或不是！"],["謝署長名冠：投資的定義在法律上並沒有一個明確的規定，像民法的買賣、租賃、承攬，民法都有規定，但是投資並沒有規定。"],["洪委員毓祥：部長，這樣解釋可以嗎？我現在付500萬買股票，換得你公司股票20張，算不算對價交易？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想委員所關心的是一個事實的認定，但這部分還在研議，我們回到第十四條來看，裡面提到「其他具有對價之交易行為」，前面有例示，就是買賣、租賃、承攬，這個在民法規定上是一個雙務契約……"],["洪委員毓祥：我沒有要管前面，前面我都清楚。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這就是一個例示，從民法裡面、從買賣、租賃、承攬，就可以看出是不是一種對價的交易行為，基本上就是要有雙方的一個對價，而且必須要有一個交易的……"],["洪委員毓祥：所以現在可以跟念法律的人說，我花500萬，然後換得公司股票20張……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員舉這個例子不夠準確啦！還是需要做一個個案上的認定……"],["洪委員毓祥：我沒有要討論個案，我現在只是問……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個認定的權力是屬於監察院，我們沒辦法幫監察院回答這個問題，這是行政的認定權以及要不要裁罰……"],["洪委員毓祥：你知道我在問哪一個案子喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我知道啊！但是你舉例說明啊！"],["洪委員毓祥：我都還沒說你就知道我在問哪一個案子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛才我在那邊聽就可以看得出來……"],["洪委員毓祥：哪一個？"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛才就是一個投資的行為……"],["洪委員毓祥：哪一個案子是有投資行為？我剛剛在問商發署……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想委員關心的剛才各位委員都已經問得滿多了，所以我們回歸到第十四條的……"],["洪委員毓祥：我也不要耽誤時間了，我想你們今天的回答都一樣，不然下次就請司法委員會修法好了，我們也來看看投資不算是對價交易行為……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個交易行為一定要合乎到……"],["洪委員毓祥：這會列入公報喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對價的交易行為，這部分要合乎這個定義，那我們只能就法條上來做一個解釋、來做一個觀察。"],["洪委員毓祥：所以以後我們如果要規避這種利害關係、規避這種貪污，只要買賣股票然後交易，這樣就不算了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這就是一個很明確的法律規定……"],["洪委員毓祥：我當然知道啊！所以我現在問你對價交易行為，部長的認定是說，我投資你錢……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法就假設的問題去做一個認定，這當然要經過討論跟研議，看看個案是不是有法條規定的成立，所以無法舉一個例就認為這就是一個交易、就有對價的交易或者沒有對價交易，我沒辦法做這樣一個回答。"],["洪委員毓祥：所以你的答案就是不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是說不知道，而是這還要再做一個研議，因為我們並不清楚這個個案到底是怎麼樣。"],["洪委員毓祥：我今天終於上了一個非常珍貴的法學課，我投資500萬換得股票20張，不算交易、對價，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是或不是，我沒辦法去回答。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員。部長，對價關係在法律上有很清楚的定義，您剛剛這樣子講……"],["鄭部長銘謙：買賣、租賃、承攬……"],["主席：這不只是買賣、租賃、承攬，包含等價性、交換性等等，都是具有對價，好，就這個部分，希望您之後可以再提供給我們一份……就是法律上什麼叫對價關係的解釋，好嗎？因為洪委員有提出，就請法務部來解釋對價關係在實務上還有法律上，我們現在所認定的對價關係是什麼、涵蓋哪些範圍等等，請提供一份報告給我們司委會，然後我會再轉給所有委員們做參考。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-26","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","張雅琳","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","范雲","許宇甄","洪毓祥","賴士葆","洪孟楷","劉書彬","林沛祥","沈發惠","蔡其昌","蔡春綢","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2026-07-23"],"gazette_id":"1156502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、司法院、行政院消費者保護處、衛生福利部食品藥物管\n理署就「中聯致癌油事件之偵辦調查、消費者權益及食安監管」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請監察院秘書長、法務部部長、經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、銓敘部部長就「現行\n公職人員利益衝突迴避暨離職公務員旋轉門機制之執行成效與法制缺失」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1156502_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}