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很小啦"},{"start":450.7,"end":451.7,"text":"發現有問題之後"},{"start":451.7,"end":454.7,"text":"廠商隱匿了一個多月"},{"start":454.7,"end":457.7,"text":"隱匿你們現在就有法可以處理他了"},{"start":457.7,"end":458.7,"text":"我們已經罰了"},{"start":458.7,"end":459.7,"text":"但這個法寫得更清楚"},{"start":459.7,"end":460.7,"text":"已經有處理了"},{"start":460.7,"end":462.7,"text":"你看 更清楚而已"},{"start":462.7,"end":464.7,"text":"廠商跟相關的檢驗機構"},{"start":464.7,"end":466.7,"text":"他要在24小時之內通報"},{"start":466.7,"end":468.7,"text":"是啦 這個都很區別我"},{"start":468.7,"end":470.7,"text":"區別我 就很小的事情"},{"start":470.7,"end":472.7,"text":"然後你們說 哇 大家氣哭"},{"start":472.7,"end":473.7,"text":"我們也很希望說"},{"start":473.7,"end":474.7,"text":"可以不要再修就可以做"},{"start":474.7,"end":475.7,"text":"但是現在大家做得不好"},{"start":475.7,"end":477.7,"text":"就罰修得很明確"},{"start":477.7,"end":480.7,"text":"本來就沒有修就可以做"},{"start":480.7,"end":483.7,"text":"現在的法 一本來就可以做"},{"start":483.7,"end":485.7,"text":"是你們執行不力"},{"start":485.7,"end":486.7,"text":"到目前為止"},{"start":486.7,"end":488.7,"text":"你們還找外面的專家來看"},{"start":488.7,"end":490.7,"text":"到底產生在哪裡"},{"start":490.7,"end":491.7,"text":"都還不知道"},{"start":491.7,"end":493.7,"text":"好啦 你先請回了"},{"start":493.7,"end":494.7,"text":"委員 依照二次請教的話"},{"start":494.7,"end":495.7,"text":"地方政府要先做"},{"start":495.7,"end":496.7,"text":"我們現在是協助地方政府"},{"start":496.7,"end":497.7,"text":"地方政府在做啦"},{"start":497.7,"end":498.7,"text":"不是沒有做啦"},{"start":498.7,"end":500.7,"text":"你胡說八道耶這個"},{"start":500.7,"end":501.7,"text":"來 我們請消保處的"},{"start":501.7,"end":502.7,"text":"還有那個部長姓李的"},{"start":502.7,"end":504.7,"text":"消保處的總管有沒有"},{"start":504.7,"end":506.7,"text":"好 請消保處"},{"start":507.7,"end":509.7,"text":"那個部長留著好不好"},{"start":509.7,"end":510.7,"text":"部長留著"},{"start":510.7,"end":514.7,"text":"這個團體訴訟"},{"start":514.7,"end":516.7,"text":"團體訴訟"},{"start":516.7,"end":518.7,"text":"消保處扮演什麼角色"},{"start":518.7,"end":520.7,"text":"我們依照消保法"},{"start":520.7,"end":521.7,"text":"我們就是協請兩個消保團體"},{"start":521.7,"end":523.7,"text":"所以在這個過程當中"},{"start":523.7,"end":524.7,"text":"其實我們很快"},{"start":524.7,"end":526.7,"text":"就跟兩個消保團體先聯絡"},{"start":526.7,"end":527.7,"text":"現在進行中嗎"},{"start":527.7,"end":528.7,"text":"對 我們7月21號"},{"start":528.7,"end":530.7,"text":"兩個消保團體就有發布新聞"},{"start":530.7,"end":531.7,"text":"我們也有發布新聞說"},{"start":531.7,"end":533.7,"text":"已經啟動這個團體訴訟了"},{"start":533.7,"end":534.7,"text":"兩位長官聽好啊"},{"start":534.7,"end":537.7,"text":"我看一下跟死人有關的團體訴訟"},{"start":537.7,"end":539.7,"text":"2011年的塑化劑"},{"start":539.7,"end":543.7,"text":"2014年的頂新事件"},{"start":543.7,"end":545.7,"text":"結果很悲哀的啦"},{"start":545.7,"end":548.7,"text":"團體訴訟結果賠償一點點"},{"start":548.7,"end":550.7,"text":"然後結果就是"},{"start":550.7,"end":554.7,"text":"加強賠償金額提高"},{"start":554.7,"end":556.7,"text":"要修法"},{"start":556.7,"end":558.7,"text":"就這樣而已"},{"start":558.7,"end":560.7,"text":"所以大家有要學樣耶"},{"start":560.7,"end":562.7,"text":"我覺得這一部分"},{"start":562.7,"end":564.7,"text":"你根據49條50條"},{"start":564.7,"end":566.7,"text":"消保處49條50條"},{"start":566.7,"end":568.7,"text":"說什麼等等的"},{"start":568.7,"end":570.7,"text":"我覺得請問一個東西"},{"start":570.7,"end":572.7,"text":"消保處可以不可以"},{"start":572.7,"end":576.7,"text":"當成團體訴訟的發動者之一"},{"start":576.7,"end":577.7,"text":"可不可以"},{"start":577.7,"end":579.7,"text":"有人跟你告狀的話可不可以"},{"start":579.7,"end":582.7,"text":"我們現在依照法律的"},{"start":582.7,"end":584.7,"text":"可以提起團體訴訟的"},{"start":584.7,"end":586.7,"text":"就是兩個優良的消保團體"},{"start":586.7,"end":588.7,"text":"而且要優良的消保團體才可以"},{"start":588.7,"end":590.7,"text":"那我們消保處其實就是"},{"start":590.7,"end":592.7,"text":"站在一個協助他們的立場"},{"start":592.7,"end":594.7,"text":"還有跟各機關協調"},{"start":594.7,"end":596.7,"text":"比如說這是跟衛福部說"},{"start":596.7,"end":598.7,"text":"來我請教部長啦"},{"start":598.7,"end":600.7,"text":"我們可不可以修法讓消保處"},{"start":600.7,"end":604.7,"text":"也可以類同啊"},{"start":604.7,"end":606.7,"text":"這個我們的消保團體"},{"start":606.7,"end":610.7,"text":"你老百姓受傷的"},{"start":610.7,"end":612.7,"text":"來找我消保處替你團體訴訟"},{"start":612.7,"end":614.7,"text":"快點啦"},{"start":614.7,"end":616.7,"text":"民怕官"},{"start":616.7,"end":617.7,"text":"民怕官"},{"start":617.7,"end":618.7,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":618.7,"end":620.7,"text":"部長可以嗎"},{"start":620.7,"end":622.7,"text":"這個是"},{"start":622.7,"end":624.7,"text":"因為消保處不是一個機關吧"},{"start":624.7,"end":626.7,"text":"那這部分消保法正"},{"start":626.7,"end":628.7,"text":"怎麼規定我們尊重"},{"start":628.7,"end":630.7,"text":"我們的修法啊"},{"start":630.7,"end":632.7,"text":"大家喜歡修法"},{"start":632.7,"end":634.7,"text":"讓消保處可以當作團體訴訟的"},{"start":634.7,"end":636.7,"text":"窗口不行喔"},{"start":636.7,"end":638.7,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":638.7,"end":640.7,"text":"事實上那個最重要的扣留"},{"start":640.7,"end":642.7,"text":"讓團體訴訟制用"},{"start":642.7,"end":644.7,"text":"很多的多管齊下"},{"start":644.7,"end":646.7,"text":"我剛有跟委員報告過了"},{"start":646.7,"end":648.7,"text":"跟其他委員報告"},{"start":648.7,"end":650.7,"text":"就一個就是我們刑事的一個保全"},{"start":650.7,"end":652.7,"text":"但我們有扣了兩億多"},{"start":652.7,"end":654.7,"text":"在兩億多範圍有扣了"},{"start":654.7,"end":656.7,"text":"一億兩千六百萬"},{"start":656.7,"end":658.7,"text":"那另外那個消保處那部分"},{"start":658.7,"end":660.7,"text":"協助那個消保團體"},{"start":660.7,"end":662.7,"text":"去依照民事訴訟委員"},{"start":662.7,"end":664.7,"text":"做一個民事的扣押"},{"start":664.7,"end":666.7,"text":"那另外衛福部這邊"},{"start":666.7,"end":668.7,"text":"有十安法的四十九條之一"},{"start":668.7,"end":670.7,"text":"可以做行政扣留"},{"start":670.7,"end":672.7,"text":"跟法院行政法院"},{"start":672.7,"end":674.7,"text":"做行政路線跟行政法院"},{"start":674.7,"end":676.7,"text":"那其實地方的消保官"},{"start":676.7,"end":678.7,"text":"他們也設立一個損害賠償"},{"start":678.7,"end":680.7,"text":"一個專務協助這被害者"},{"start":680.7,"end":682.7,"text":"你沒有知道我重點啦"},{"start":682.7,"end":684.7,"text":"我的重點是說"},{"start":684.7,"end":686.7,"text":"可以不可以修法"},{"start":686.7,"end":688.7,"text":"這個修法這個不是法務部"},{"start":688.7,"end":690.7,"text":"你不修你不修我來修"},{"start":690.7,"end":692.7,"text":"我要讓消保處"},{"start":692.7,"end":694.7,"text":"可以成為團體訴訟的"},{"start":694.7,"end":696.7,"text":"一個窗口"},{"start":696.7,"end":698.7,"text":"因為這些廠商怕的是官"},{"start":698.7,"end":700.7,"text":"不是怕這些民間團體"},{"start":700.7,"end":702.7,"text":"這樣啦"},{"start":702.7,"end":704.7,"text":"你講"},{"start":704.7,"end":706.7,"text":"我應該補充嗎"},{"start":706.7,"end":708.7,"text":"你補充你補充不好意思"},{"start":708.7,"end":710.7,"text":"第一個就是有關於當事人能力的部分"},{"start":710.7,"end":712.7,"text":"其實會跟民事訴訟有關"},{"start":712.7,"end":714.7,"text":"就剛剛部長有提到說這個"},{"start":714.7,"end":716.7,"text":"民事訴訟的部分我們是一個單位"},{"start":716.7,"end":718.7,"text":"所以原則上在民事訴訟那邊提起這個"},{"start":718.7,"end":720.7,"text":"就是代為是有問題的"},{"start":720.7,"end":722.7,"text":"那第二個就是說"},{"start":722.7,"end":724.7,"text":"其實現在兩個優良消保團體"},{"start":724.7,"end":726.7,"text":"在這個過程當中其實還有歷來的"},{"start":726.7,"end":728.7,"text":"從以前十安法103年修正以來"},{"start":728.7,"end":730.7,"text":"其實他們運作的非常好"},{"start":730.7,"end":732.7,"text":"在十安法裡面"},{"start":732.7,"end":734.7,"text":"所以你的意思是不要給他搶生意就對了"},{"start":734.7,"end":736.7,"text":"就是說他們其實"},{"start":736.7,"end":738.7,"text":"這兩個優良消保團體其實真的做得很好"},{"start":738.7,"end":740.7,"text":"相當有經驗然後他們有律師團"},{"start":740.7,"end":742.7,"text":"好我請問最後一個小問題"},{"start":742.7,"end":744.7,"text":"我問我一下去"},{"start":744.7,"end":746.7,"text":"可不可以代為求償"},{"start":746.7,"end":748.7,"text":"我們政府來代為求償"},{"start":748.7,"end":750.7,"text":"代為求償是這樣就是說"},{"start":750.7,"end":752.7,"text":"我們現在的做法因為現在用十安基金"},{"start":752.7,"end":754.7,"text":"來支應這個訴訟費用"},{"start":754.7,"end":756.7,"text":"其實消費者也是不用出錢的"},{"start":756.7,"end":758.7,"text":"就如同剛跟國務院報告"},{"start":758.7,"end":760.7,"text":"有律師團現在做得非常好"},{"start":760.7,"end":762.7,"text":"那在104年左右"},{"start":762.7,"end":764.7,"text":"曾經有地方政府是代為求償的"},{"start":764.7,"end":766.7,"text":"就是先發給這個十安法裡面"},{"start":766.7,"end":768.7,"text":"56條第三項最低的金額500塊"},{"start":768.7,"end":770.7,"text":"但是其實後來的"},{"start":770.7,"end":772.7,"text":"最後其實只有四個"},{"start":772.7,"end":774.7,"text":"民眾登記"},{"start":774.7,"end":776.7,"text":"所以那個效果好不好"},{"start":776.7,"end":778.7,"text":"其實補充一句"},{"start":778.7,"end":780.7,"text":"其實老百姓要的不是說"},{"start":780.7,"end":782.7,"text":"我買了退我多少錢"},{"start":782.7,"end":784.7,"text":"我沒有說吃了死不這樣"},{"start":784.7,"end":786.7,"text":"關係是健康的問題"},{"start":786.7,"end":788.7,"text":"不是金錢話"},{"start":788.7,"end":790.7,"text":"是你的身體健康的問題"},{"start":790.7,"end":792.7,"text":"我吃了會怎樣"},{"start":792.7,"end":794.7,"text":"會不會慢性自殺"},{"start":794.7,"end":796.7,"text":"現在慢慢累積以後就"},{"start":796.7,"end":798.7,"text":"哪天得到癌症了"},{"start":798.7,"end":800.7,"text":"原來就是這個"},{"start":800.7,"end":802.7,"text":"現在沒辦法抓了因為短時間沒辦法去"},{"start":802.7,"end":804.7,"text":"知道說因果關係"},{"start":804.7,"end":806.7,"text":"吃了以後多久"},{"start":806.7,"end":808.7,"text":"會得癌症也不知道"},{"start":808.7,"end":810.7,"text":"我也不知道"},{"start":810.7,"end":812.7,"text":"所以之前的那個鼎鑫案的時候"},{"start":812.7,"end":814.7,"text":"其實是用非財產上的損害"},{"start":814.7,"end":816.7,"text":"謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:15.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:17.254000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:17.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:23.248000+08:00","text":"有請法務部鄭部長以及衛福部林次長。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:23.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:25.377778+08:00","text":"有請鄭部長跟林次長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:28.073333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:28.073333+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:28.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:29.676364+08:00","text":"兩位長官好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:29.985455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:43.033333+08:00","text":"首先我先請教林次長，媒體斗大的字體報導說有機苦茶油驗出苯駢芘超標，這批產品是不是已經下架了？","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:43.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:51.346667+08:00","text":"是，這批產品是食藥署跟新北市政府衛生局一起儘速去處理，所以今天已經請他們全部都下架了。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:51.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:38:54.968750+08:00","text":"這件事情是新北市先抓到的，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:38:55.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:00.500000+08:00","text":"這個業者是自主通報，同時也通報新北市衛生局跟食藥署。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:02.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:17.991667+08:00","text":"中聯毒油事件發展到現在，那些中鏢的……就是被列為有問題的商品確定可以再重新上架了嗎？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:18.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:20.033333+08:00","text":"沒有，有問題的那批當然不能啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:20.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:25.533333+08:00","text":"有問題的總共有7批，全部都是下架的，我們已經請業者要啟動後續的銷毀程序。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:25.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:27.366667+08:00","text":"那19批就是給它上架？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:27.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:29.414286+08:00","text":"那19批驗完都是合格的。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:29.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:31.414286+08:00","text":"確定食安沒問題了？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:31.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:35.533333+08:00","text":"這是依照食安法還有其中所訂定的苯駢芘標準……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:35.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:36.950000+08:00","text":"這個你要打包票喔！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:37.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:44.255556+08:00","text":"我們都知道，現在來講，在這個峰火上面，你確定那19批都沒問題？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:44.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:46.518182+08:00","text":"那19批我們驗過後是符合標準的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:46.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:53.325000+08:00","text":"你們這麼急著維護廠商的利益啊？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:53.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:39:54.325000+08:00","text":"怎會這樣子呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:39:53.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:00.500000+08:00","text":"委員，上面的廠商、這幾家大廠商，尤其是中聯，我們配合檢調，一定要讓他們得到懲罰……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:01.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:16.414286+08:00","text":"這個事情不能夠這麼急著這樣處理，外界一直擔心的問題，其實我在別的委員會也問過你，就是到現在為止，你都沒有辦法告訴我們毒油是怎麼產生的。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:17.015789+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:20.300000+08:00","text":"目前我們的第三方調查小組已經進入了……對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:20.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:21.500000+08:00","text":"但還沒有結果啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:21.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:23.477778+08:00","text":"在還沒有結果之前，你就敢放行？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:24.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:35.450000+08:00","text":"委員，那不是食藥署放的，是我們找了諮詢專家，諮詢專家也有協助我們食藥署，就那19批預防性下架產品的原油採樣去做檢查，然後是符合標準的。","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:35.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:36.366667+08:00","text":"確定喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:37.588889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:38.477778+08:00","text":"那批是我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:40.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:53.985714+08:00","text":"其實外界是希望，以現在來講，因為最後結果都還沒有出來，原因都還不知道是什麼，是原料問題，還是製程問題還是運送問題都還不知道，你為什麼急著給他們上架？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:54.128571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:40:54.557143+08:00","text":"我就不懂啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:40:54.985714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:08.557143+08:00","text":"委員，對於中聯，我們會配合檢調，一定要讓中聯得到相關的懲罰，不過另外這19批，其實都是預防性下架，且預防性下架影響的是下游的、小型的廠商，在預防性下架這邊，當然我們能夠……","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:09.161538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:14.392308+08:00","text":"會不會影響廠商我們不在乎，我們在乎的是老百姓食的安全。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:16.084615+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:20.450000+08:00","text":"今天是7月23號，食安法要修法，這確定了嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:20.450000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:23.700000+08:00","text":"我們草案已送到行政院，今天行政院……","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:23.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:25.300000+08:00","text":"通過了沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:25.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:27.325000+08:00","text":"我在這邊備詢，我不知道行政院院會的進度。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:27.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:28.469231+08:00","text":"法務部知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:29.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:31.128571+08:00","text":"這是行政院……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:32.271429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:33.557143+08:00","text":"我們今天早上都在這裡……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:33.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:34.033333+08:00","text":"通過了嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:34.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:36.278947+08:00","text":"我們今天都在這裡，我不知道院會的進度。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:37.427273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:40.200000+08:00","text":"你叫他們去查一下，等一下再跟我們講。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:40.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:54.300000+08:00","text":"因為今天supposedly會通過，而且在修法上面，法務部應該有扮演的角色吧？","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:54.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:56.700000+08:00","text":"就是在立法、修法的體例等各方面，法務部應該有可以著墨的地方吧？","quality":0.214},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:56.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:58.533333+08:00","text":"政委召開的會議有請各部會表示意見。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:58.533333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:41:59.533333+08:00","text":"法務部的意見是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:41:58.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:42:09.972727+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為法務部所扮演的角色就是在文字跟立法體例上，提供專業的法制意見而已，至於立法政策……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:42:10.336364+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:42:11.500000+08:00","text":"內容不是你管的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:42:11.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:42:15.557143+08:00","text":"內容的部分我們完全尊重各部會的立法政策。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:42:15.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:42:34.200000+08:00","text":"我現在就告訴兩位長官及各位長官，其實毒油事件發生到現在為止，第一個，到底什麼原因造成毒油苯駢芘這麼高，到現在為止，剛才林次長講得非常清楚：不知道！","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:42:34.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:42:39.238462+08:00","text":"他有叫專家來，但還沒有答案，然後你們就急著給他們上架。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:42:39.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:42:42.533333+08:00","text":"第二個，行政院最可惡的地方在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:42:42.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:42:44.366667+08:00","text":"甩鍋給立法院！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:42:44.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:43:06.700000+08:00","text":"我跟各位講，特別是林次長，請仔細聽著，從2014年頂新事件到現在為止，食安法修了17次，碰到問題就修法、碰到問題就修法，結果現在碰到問題就說立法院怠惰，甩鍋給立法院，甩鍋給業者自主檢驗。","quality":0.779},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:43:07.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:43:35.557143+08:00","text":"我再跟你講，你們現在修法的這些東西，其實行政命令都可以做，根本不用修法就應該要去做的，比如2014年的修正就已經大幅提高了刑事罰金，不夠就再罰，該罰多少就多少；然後你們說業者可以自設實驗室，其實2014年就已經修法了，上市櫃公司要增設實驗室，工廠獨立設立，這些都有了！","quality":0.728},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:43:35.985714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:43:47.400000+08:00","text":"2015年的修法，則是修了十幾次，中央對於食品原料的加工、製造可以進行限制。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:43:47.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:44:07.033333+08:00","text":"而你們現在的修法就是三大修法，我不要你們講，我要講給你們聽，你們就是將事後裁罰改成事前預備，然後企業自主決定是否通報改成一定要即時通報，以前是「得」，現在改成「應」，由地方各自應變改成中央指揮統一，修法都修過了！","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:44:07.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:44:23.485714+08:00","text":"所以第一個，你們甩鍋給立法院，就說立法院修法沒過，出了問題就說是立法院修法的問題，你們的工具已經夠多了。","quality":0.702},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:44:24.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:44:37.414286+08:00","text":"我再跟你講喔，2015年、11年前修的法，中央對於地方的食品原料的製造、加工可以進行限制，什麼叫進行限制？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:44:37.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:44:43.033333+08:00","text":"你現在要修的法通通已經有了，不是沒有，只是你們「黑龍繞桌」。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:44:43.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:01.325000+08:00","text":"第二個，甩給地方首長，說地方沒有去檢驗等等，然後說廠商自主檢驗做得不好，卓院長也在講說地方檢驗做得不好等等，我覺得非常不可取啊！","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:01.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:19.485714+08:00","text":"行政部門碰到問題就叫立法院修法，你們再來解決，你們工具已經夠多了，這部食安法修了十幾次，你能不能告訴我哪一條是你們修了以後就不會有毒品產生？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:19.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:21.414286+08:00","text":"你告訴我，林次長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:21.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:24.200000+08:00","text":"委員，你說是毒品還是什麼？對。毒品？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:24.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:27.325000+08:00","text":"不是毒品，毒油啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:27.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:34.533333+08:00","text":"委員，這一次的事件裡面，我們明確地看到包含地方檢驗的頻次沒有訂得很清楚；再來，第二個部分……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:34.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:37.477778+08:00","text":"這個都很trivial、都很小的事啦！","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:37.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:41.366667+08:00","text":"廠商發現有問題之後，廠商隱匿了一個多月……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:41.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:44.500000+08:00","text":"隱匿，你們現在就有法可以處理他了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:44.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:46.588889+08:00","text":"我們已經罰了，但是我們要寫得更清楚……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:46.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:49.414286+08:00","text":"已經有處理了，要更清楚而已啊。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:49.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:53.477778+08:00","text":"包括應該檢驗的頻率，以及廠商跟相關的檢驗機構要在24小時之內通報。","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:53.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:58.700000+08:00","text":"是啦，這個都很trivial，就很小的事情，然後你們就哇！","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:58.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:45:59.700000+08:00","text":"大張旗鼓，對不對？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:45:59.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:04.414286+08:00","text":"我們也很希望不用再修法就可以做，但是現在大家做得不好，我們就把它修得更明確，把大家的行政義務寫清楚。","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:04.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:20.414286+08:00","text":"你們本來沒有修就可以做，現在的法本來就可以做，是你們執行不力，到目前為止，你們還找外面的專家來看，到底問題是從哪裡產生都還不知道，好啦，你先請回了，我們請……","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:20.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:23.609091+08:00","text":"委員，依據第四十一條，地方政府要先做，我們現在是協助地方政府。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:23.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:26.950000+08:00","text":"地方政府有在做，不是沒有做，你胡說八道耶！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:27.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:29.255556+08:00","text":"我們請消保處的長官。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:32.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:33.300000+08:00","text":"請消保處處長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:35.144444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:35.811111+08:00","text":"部長留著。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:39.033333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:45.477778+08:00","text":"在團體訴訟的部分，消保處扮演什麼角色？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:46.271429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:53.518182+08:00","text":"依照消保法，我們就是協請兩個消保團體，所以在這個過程當中，其實我們很快就跟兩個消保團體先聯絡……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:53.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:46:54.533333+08:00","text":"現在正在進行中嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:46:54.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:47:00.518182+08:00","text":"對，在7月21號兩個消保團體就有發布新聞，我們也有發布新聞說已經啟動團體訴訟了。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:47:00.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:47:16.700000+08:00","text":"兩位長官聽好啊，我看了一下跟食安有關的團體訴訟，2011年的塑化劑、2014年的頂新事件，結果很悲哀啦，團體訴訟的結果只有賠償一點點，後來結果怎麼樣？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:47:18.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:47:27.255556+08:00","text":"要修法提高賠償金額，就這樣而已，所以大家就有樣學樣。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:47:28.557143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:47:43.366667+08:00","text":"有關這個部分，你說根據消保法第四十九條、第五十條來辦理，我請問消保處可不可以當成團體訴訟的發動者之一？","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:47:44.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:47:46.533333+08:00","text":"有人跟你告狀的話，可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:47:47.366667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:48:03.300000+08:00","text":"依據法律，現在可以提起團體訴訟的就是這兩個優良的消保團體，而且要優良的消保團體才可以，我們消保處其實就是站在一個協助他們的立場，還有跟各機關協調，比如這次跟衛福部……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:48:03.985714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:48:13.477778+08:00","text":"我請教部長，我們可不可以修法讓消保處也可以類同消保團體？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:48:14.271429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:48:21.033333+08:00","text":"老百姓受傷的去找消保處，讓消保處替他們打團體訴訟，比較快啦！","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:48:22.366667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:48:24.366667+08:00","text":"因為廠商不怕民、怕官。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:48:24.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:48:25.366667+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:48:25.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:48:27.300000+08:00","text":"部長，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:48:29.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:48:35.450000+08:00","text":"因為消保處不是一個機關，有關這部分，消保法怎麼規定，我們就尊重主……","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:48:35.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:48:43.300000+08:00","text":"那我們來修法啊，大家來修法，我們來修法啊，讓消保處也可以當作一個團體訴訟的窗口，不行喔？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:48:43.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:49:27.500000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，事實上保護消費……扣留，以作為團體訴訟之用，我們有多管齊下，我剛才有跟其他委員報告過，一個就是我們刑事的保全，在兩億多的範圍有扣了1億2,600萬；另外，消保處的部分，也協助消保團體依照民事訴訟法來做民事的扣押；另外，衛福部這邊依據食安法第四十九條之一，可以做行政扣留，走行政路線，跟行政法院聲請假扣押；另外，地方的消保官也設立了一個損害賠償的專戶協助被害者……","quality":0.79},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:49:27.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:49:33.414286+08:00","text":"你沒有抓到我的重點，我的重點是說可不可以修法？讓……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:49:33.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:49:35.518182+08:00","text":"這個部分不是法務部主管，我們沒辦法回答這個問題。","quality":0.318},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:49:36.366667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:49:50.700000+08:00","text":"好，你不修，我來修，要讓消保處可以成為團體訴訟的一個窗口，因為這些廠商怕的是官，不是怕這些民間團體，簡單說就是這樣，我就跟你這樣講。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:49:51.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:49:53.366667+08:00","text":"委員，我需要補充嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:49:53.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:49:54.100000+08:00","text":"好，你補充。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:49:54.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:49:55.500000+08:00","text":"好，不好意思。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:49:55.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:50:19.366667+08:00","text":"第一個就是有關於當事人能力的部分是跟民事訴訟法有關，剛剛部長也有提到，民事訴訟法的部分，我們是一個單位，所以原則上在民事訴訟法那邊提起代為訴訟是有問題的；第二個，現在這兩個優良消保團體還有歷來的，從食安法103年修正以來，他們其實運作得非常好，在食安法裡面，因為也有一些……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:50:19.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:50:21.582353+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是說不要跟他們搶生意就對了？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:50:21.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:50:27.546154+08:00","text":"就是其實這兩個優良消保團體真的做得很好，也相當有經驗，然後他們也有律師團。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:50:28.427273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:50:35.477778+08:00","text":"最後一個小問題，問完我就下去了，可不可以由政府來代位求償？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:50:35.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:50:47.518182+08:00","text":"代位求償是這樣，我們現在的做法是用食安基金來支應訴訟費用，其實消費者也是不用出錢的，就如同剛剛跟委員報告的，兩個優良消保團體有律師團，現在做得也非常好。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:50:48.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:51:04.033333+08:00","text":"在104年左右，曾經有地方政府有代位求償，就是依據食安法第五十六條第三項，發給最低的金額500塊，但是最後只有4個民眾登記，所以那個效果好不好，我們其實可以後面再……","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:51:04.366667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:51:37.300000+08:00","text":"我補充一句，其實老百姓要的不是說我買了，要退我多少錢，我們要問的是吃了會不會死，這樣而已，關心的是健康的問題，不是money talks，是身體健康的問題，我吃了會怎麼樣嗎、會不會慢性自殺，現在慢慢累積，以後哪一天得到cancer就是因為這個，現在沒辦法抓，因為短時間沒辦法知道因果關係，吃了以後多久會得cancer也不知道，衛福部也不知道，衛福部擺爛、也不知道。","quality":0.675},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-07-23T11:51:37.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:51:42.700000+08:00","text":"所以之前頂新案的時候，其實是用非財產上的損害來求償。謝謝。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-23T11:51:43.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:51:44.200000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:51:44.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:51:46.500000+08:00","text":"謝謝賴士葆委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:51:46.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:51:50.800000+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請洪孟楷委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":873,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時38分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請法務部鄭部長以及衛福部林次長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長跟林次長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。首先我先請教林次長，媒體斗大的字體報導說有機苦茶油驗出苯駢芘超標，這批產品是不是已經下架了？"],["林次長靜儀：是，這批產品是食藥署跟新北市政府衛生局一起儘速去處理，所以今天已經請他們全部都下架了。"],["賴委員士葆：這件事情是新北市先抓到的，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：這個業者是自主通報，同時也通報新北市衛生局跟食藥署。"],["賴委員士葆：中聯毒油事件發展到現在，那些中鏢的……就是被列為有問題的商品確定可以再重新上架了嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，有問題的那批當然不能啊！有問題的總共有7批，全部都是下架的，我們已經請業者要啟動後續的銷毀程序。"],["賴委員士葆：那19批就是給它上架？"],["林次長靜儀：那19批驗完都是合格的。"],["賴委員士葆：確定食安沒問題了？"],["林次長靜儀：這是依照食安法還有其中所訂定的苯駢芘標準……"],["賴委員士葆：這個你要打包票喔！我們都知道，現在來講，在這個峰火上面，你確定那19批都沒問題？"],["林次長靜儀：那19批我們驗過後是符合標準的。"],["賴委員士葆：你們這麼急著維護廠商的利益啊？怎會這樣子呢？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，上面的廠商、這幾家大廠商，尤其是中聯，我們配合檢調，一定要讓他們得到懲罰……"],["賴委員士葆：這個事情不能夠這麼急著這樣處理，外界一直擔心的問題，其實我在別的委員會也問過你，就是到現在為止，你都沒有辦法告訴我們毒油是怎麼產生的。"],["林次長靜儀：目前我們的第三方調查小組已經進入了……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！但還沒有結果啊！在還沒有結果之前，你就敢放行？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，那不是食藥署放的，是我們找了諮詢專家，諮詢專家也有協助我們食藥署，就那19批預防性下架產品的原油採樣去做檢查，然後是符合標準的。"],["賴委員士葆：確定喔？"],["林次長靜儀：那批是我們……"],["賴委員士葆：其實外界是希望，以現在來講，因為最後結果都還沒有出來，原因都還不知道是什麼，是原料問題，還是製程問題還是運送問題都還不知道，你為什麼急著給他們上架？我就不懂啊！"],["林次長靜儀：委員，對於中聯，我們會配合檢調，一定要讓中聯得到相關的懲罰，不過另外這19批，其實都是預防性下架，且預防性下架影響的是下游的、小型的廠商，在預防性下架這邊，當然我們能夠……"],["賴委員士葆：會不會影響廠商我們不在乎，我們在乎的是老百姓食的安全。今天是7月23號，食安法要修法，這確定了嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們草案已送到行政院，今天行政院……"],["賴委員士葆：通過了沒有？"],["林次長靜儀：我在這邊備詢，我不知道行政院院會的進度。"],["賴委員士葆：法務部知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是行政院……"],["林次長靜儀：我們今天早上都在這裡……"],["賴委員士葆：通過了嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們今天都在這裡，我不知道院會的進度。"],["賴委員士葆：你叫他們去查一下，等一下再跟我們講。因為今天supposedly會通過，而且在修法上面，法務部應該有扮演的角色吧？就是在立法、修法的體例等各方面，法務部應該有可以著墨的地方吧？"],["林次長靜儀：政委召開的會議有請各部會表示意見。"],["賴委員士葆：法務部的意見是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為法務部所扮演的角色就是在文字跟立法體例上，提供專業的法制意見而已，至於立法政策……"],["賴委員士葆：內容不是你管的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：內容的部分我們完全尊重各部會的立法政策。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在就告訴兩位長官及各位長官，其實毒油事件發生到現在為止，第一個，到底什麼原因造成毒油苯駢芘這麼高，到現在為止，剛才林次長講得非常清楚：不知道！他有叫專家來，但還沒有答案，然後你們就急著給他們上架。","第二個，行政院最可惡的地方在哪裡？甩鍋給立法院！我跟各位講，特別是林次長，請仔細聽著，從2014年頂新事件到現在為止，食安法修了17次，碰到問題就修法、碰到問題就修法，結果現在碰到問題就說立法院怠惰，甩鍋給立法院，甩鍋給業者自主檢驗。","我再跟你講，你們現在修法的這些東西，其實行政命令都可以做，根本不用修法就應該要去做的，比如2014年的修正就已經大幅提高了刑事罰金，不夠就再罰，該罰多少就多少；然後你們說業者可以自設實驗室，其實2014年就已經修法了，上市櫃公司要增設實驗室，工廠獨立設立，這些都有了！2015年的修法，則是修了十幾次，中央對於食品原料的加工、製造可以進行限制。而你們現在的修法就是三大修法，我不要你們講，我要講給你們聽，你們就是將事後裁罰改成事前預備，然後企業自主決定是否通報改成一定要即時通報，以前是「得」，現在改成「應」，由地方各自應變改成中央指揮統一，修法都修過了！所以第一個，你們甩鍋給立法院，就說立法院修法沒過，出了問題就說是立法院修法的問題，你們的工具已經夠多了。","我再跟你講喔，2015年、11年前修的法，中央對於地方的食品原料的製造、加工可以進行限制，什麼叫進行限制？你現在要修的法通通已經有了，不是沒有，只是你們「黑龍繞桌」。第二個，甩給地方首長，說地方沒有去檢驗等等，然後說廠商自主檢驗做得不好，卓院長也在講說地方檢驗做得不好等等，我覺得非常不可取啊！行政部門碰到問題就叫立法院修法，你們再來解決，你們工具已經夠多了，這部食安法修了十幾次，你能不能告訴我哪一條是你們修了以後就不會有毒品產生？你告訴我，林次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員，你說是毒品還是什麼？"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["林次長靜儀：毒品？"],["賴委員士葆：不是毒品，毒油啦！"],["林次長靜儀：委員，這一次的事件裡面，我們明確地看到包含地方檢驗的頻次沒有訂得很清楚；再來，第二個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：這個都很trivial、都很小的事啦！"],["林次長靜儀：廠商發現有問題之後，廠商隱匿了一個多月……"],["賴委員士葆：隱匿，你們現在就有法可以處理他了。"],["林次長靜儀：我們已經罰了，但是我們要寫得更清楚……"],["賴委員士葆：已經有處理了，要更清楚而已啊。"],["林次長靜儀：包括應該檢驗的頻率，以及廠商跟相關的檢驗機構要在24小時之內通報。"],["賴委員士葆：是啦，這個都很trivial，就很小的事情，然後你們就哇！大張旗鼓，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：我們也很希望不用再修法就可以做，但是現在大家做得不好，我們就把它修得更明確，把大家的行政義務寫清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：你們本來沒有修就可以做，現在的法本來就可以做，是你們執行不力，到目前為止，你們還找外面的專家來看，到底問題是從哪裡產生都還不知道，好啦，你先請回了，我們請……"],["林次長靜儀：委員，依據第四十一條，地方政府要先做，我們現在是協助地方政府。"],["賴委員士葆：地方政府有在做，不是沒有做，你胡說八道耶！","我們請消保處的長官。"],["主席：請消保處處長。"],["賴委員士葆：部長留著。在團體訴訟的部分，消保處扮演什麼角色？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：依照消保法，我們就是協請兩個消保團體，所以在這個過程當中，其實我們很快就跟兩個消保團體先聯絡……"],["賴委員士葆：現在正在進行中嗎？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：對，在7月21號兩個消保團體就有發布新聞，我們也有發布新聞說已經啟動團體訴訟了。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官聽好啊，我看了一下跟食安有關的團體訴訟，2011年的塑化劑、2014年的頂新事件，結果很悲哀啦，團體訴訟的結果只有賠償一點點，後來結果怎麼樣？要修法提高賠償金額，就這樣而已，所以大家就有樣學樣。有關這個部分，你說根據消保法第四十九條、第五十條來辦理，我請問消保處可不可以當成團體訴訟的發動者之一？有人跟你告狀的話，可不可以？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：依據法律，現在可以提起團體訴訟的就是這兩個優良的消保團體，而且要優良的消保團體才可以，我們消保處其實就是站在一個協助他們的立場，還有跟各機關協調，比如這次跟衛福部……"],["賴委員士葆：我請教部長，我們可不可以修法讓消保處也可以類同消保團體？老百姓受傷的去找消保處，讓消保處替他們打團體訴訟，比較快啦！因為廠商不怕民、怕官。可以嗎？部長，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為消保處不是一個機關，有關這部分，消保法怎麼規定，我們就尊重主……"],["賴委員士葆：那我們來修法啊，大家來修法，我們來修法啊，讓消保處也可以當作一個團體訴訟的窗口，不行喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，事實上保護消費……扣留，以作為團體訴訟之用，我們有多管齊下，我剛才有跟其他委員報告過，一個就是我們刑事的保全，在兩億多的範圍有扣了1億2,600萬；另外，消保處的部分，也協助消保團體依照民事訴訟法來做民事的扣押；另外，衛福部這邊依據食安法第四十九條之一，可以做行政扣留，走行政路線，跟行政法院聲請假扣押；另外，地方的消保官也設立了一個損害賠償的專戶協助被害者……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有抓到我的重點，我的重點是說可不可以修法？讓……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分不是法務部主管，我們沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你不修，我來修，要讓消保處可以成為團體訴訟的一個窗口，因為這些廠商怕的是官，不是怕這些民間團體，簡單說就是這樣，我就跟你這樣講。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：委員，我需要補充嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：好，你補充。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：好，不好意思。第一個就是有關於當事人能力的部分是跟民事訴訟法有關，剛剛部長也有提到，民事訴訟法的部分，我們是一個單位，所以原則上在民事訴訟法那邊提起代為訴訟是有問題的；第二個，現在這兩個優良消保團體還有歷來的，從食安法103年修正以來，他們其實運作得非常好，在食安法裡面，因為也有一些……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思是說不要跟他們搶生意就對了？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：就是其實這兩個優良消保團體真的做得很好，也相當有經驗，然後他們也有律師團。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，問完我就下去了，可不可以由政府來代位求償？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：代位求償是這樣，我們現在的做法是用食安基金來支應訴訟費用，其實消費者也是不用出錢的，就如同剛剛跟委員報告的，兩個優良消保團體有律師團，現在做得也非常好。在104年左右，曾經有地方政府有代位求償，就是依據食安法第五十六條第三項，發給最低的金額500塊，但是最後只有4個民眾登記，所以那個效果好不好，我們其實可以後面再……"],["賴委員士葆：我補充一句，其實老百姓要的不是說我買了，要退我多少錢，我們要問的是吃了會不會死，這樣而已，關心的是健康的問題，不是money talks，是身體健康的問題，我吃了會怎麼樣嗎、會不會慢性自殺，現在慢慢累積，以後哪一天得到cancer就是因為這個，現在沒辦法抓，因為短時間沒辦法知道因果關係，吃了以後多久會得cancer也不知道，衛福部也不知道，衛福部擺爛、也不知道。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：所以之前頂新案的時候，其實是用非財產上的損害來求償。謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接下來我們有請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-26","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","張雅琳","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","范雲","許宇甄","洪毓祥","賴士葆","洪孟楷","劉書彬","林沛祥","沈發惠","蔡其昌","蔡春綢","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2026-07-23"],"gazette_id":"1156502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、司法院、行政院消費者保護處、衛生福利部食品藥物管\n理署就「中聯致癌油事件之偵辦調查、消費者權益及食安監管」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請監察院秘書長、法務部部長、經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、銓敘部部長就「現行\n公職人員利益衝突迴避暨離職公務員旋轉門機制之執行成效與法制缺失」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1156502_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}