{"error":false,"id":["170706"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170706,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170706","日期":"2026-07-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-26","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":26,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-23T11:51:48+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-23T12:04:08+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7cefb85d66825e784601ef8a44924d35f952d29ff77f22d7390cec669743f780716be6cd68217e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:51:48 - 12:04:08","會議時間":"2026-07-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、司法院、行政院消費者保護處、衛生福利部食品藥物管理署就「中聯致癌油事件之偵辦調查、消費者權益及食安監管」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請監察院秘書長、法務部部長、經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、銓敘部部長就「現行公職人員利益衝突迴避暨離職公務員旋轉門機制之執行成效與法制缺失」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月22日及23日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.63846875,"end":1.0434687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.83659375,"end":3.0178437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.865343750000001,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.375343750000003,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.89784375,"end":22.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23.04846875,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":31.75596875,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":33.10596875,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":34.35471875,"end":49.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.44096875,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.02284375,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.67534375,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.15284375,"end":97.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.08096875000001,"end":85.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":97.99034375000001,"end":113.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.36346875000001,"end":116.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":115.87784375000001,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.45971875000001,"end":119.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":118.91534375,"end":138.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.60846875000001,"end":140.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":140.49846875,"end":142.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":142.60784375,"end":144.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.01284375,"end":172.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":145.79721875,"end":146.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":153.55971875,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":156.05721875,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.49346875,"end":172.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.77596875,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.43409375000002,"end":178.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.23971875,"end":177.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.85534375,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":184.84596875000003,"end":186.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":186.44909375,"end":205.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.97346875000002,"end":206.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":206.20971875,"end":219.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":219.69284375,"end":245.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.55784375000002,"end":247.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.00909375,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":261.74534375,"end":268.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.52534375,"end":268.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":268.52909375,"end":268.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.86659375,"end":268.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.18721875,"end":270.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":269.92971875,"end":296.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":297.18284375,"end":312.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.67409375,"end":336.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":313.73721875,"end":315.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":328.40159375,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":333.09284375000004,"end":338.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.40846875,"end":340.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.48409375,"end":341.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":341.86784375,"end":342.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":343.08284375,"end":344.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.14596875,"end":344.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":344.68596875000003,"end":345.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.70284375,"end":344.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":346.67721875,"end":374.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":374.35221875,"end":381.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.96284375000005,"end":392.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.82346875,"end":382.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.92471875,"end":382.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":392.69534375,"end":397.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":398.53409375,"end":418.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":418.68284375,"end":424.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":424.06596875,"end":427.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":429.80346875000004,"end":430.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.88784375,"end":431.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":431.84534375000004,"end":433.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.31784375,"end":433.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":434.34284375000004,"end":434.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":435.87846875,"end":437.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":438.13971875000004,"end":458.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.48034375000003,"end":445.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.68284375,"end":445.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.90221875000003,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.96534375000005,"end":447.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.18034375,"end":451.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.04909375000005,"end":451.43721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.43721875000006,"end":451.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.81159375000004,"end":462.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.74346875000003,"end":463.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.21159375,"end":468.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":466.50659375000004,"end":466.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":467.72159375,"end":470.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":471.40034375000005,"end":489.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.18409375000005,"end":478.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.20096875,"end":478.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.63971875000004,"end":478.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.75784375,"end":479.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.46659375,"end":479.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":487.49909375000004,"end":488.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":488.57909375,"end":495.31221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":493.60784375000003,"end":505.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":505.13346875,"end":506.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":507.31034375,"end":513.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":511.20846875,"end":520.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":519.20721875,"end":520.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.42221875,"end":537.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":522.16034375,"end":523.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":524.1684687500001,"end":525.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":532.79159375,"end":533.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":535.39034375,"end":589.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":557.8003437500001,"end":560.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.6984687500001,"end":564.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":586.4709687500001,"end":590.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":591.61784375,"end":591.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.0734687500001,"end":595.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":593.27159375,"end":593.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":595.0434687500001,"end":605.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.7722187500001,"end":603.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":606.1809687500001,"end":618.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":613.84221875,"end":620.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":619.76534375,"end":644.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":627.3759687500001,"end":631.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":632.8940937500001,"end":636.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.2690937500001,"end":636.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.6909687500001,"end":636.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":640.85909375,"end":644.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":645.7865937500001,"end":648.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":646.27596875,"end":648.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.25846875,"end":655.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":653.9540937500001,"end":656.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":656.9578437499999,"end":677.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":663.1003437500001,"end":667.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":670.62659375,"end":681.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.93346875,"end":677.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":678.8615937500001,"end":680.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.5322187500001,"end":680.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":680.5490937500001,"end":680.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.59971875,"end":681.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.60784375,"end":686.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":689.03721875,"end":691.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":692.4797187500001,"end":696.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":697.06971875,"end":706.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":704.5959687500001,"end":710.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":706.9753437500001,"end":713.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.3628437500001,"end":715.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":714.4172187500001,"end":719.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":718.7878437500001,"end":720.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":719.9184687500001,"end":719.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":720.69471875,"end":720.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.7622187500001,"end":741.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":720.96471875,"end":724.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":724.18784375,"end":724.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.07784375,"end":726.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":726.0947187500001,"end":727.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.74846875,"end":727.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.9297187500001,"end":729.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.96721875,"end":732.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":732.0347187500001,"end":733.4522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.32096875,"end":736.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":736.3715937500001,"end":736.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.7765937500001,"end":736.8272187500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0,"end":2,"text":"好 不好意思"},{"start":2,"end":4,"text":"是"},{"start":6,"end":10,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請衛福部次長跟法務部部長"},{"start":10,"end":12,"text":"好 麻煩請部長跟次長"},{"start":14,"end":16,"text":"來 國營好"},{"start":16,"end":20,"text":"來 部長次長 我再確認一下 因為昨天其實衛福部食藥署就已經有開記者會"},{"start":20,"end":24,"text":"也講到是說 有可能這一次的油品主要的原因"},{"start":24,"end":29,"text":"是所謂去年中聯放寬他的熱損率 黃豆的熱損率"},{"start":29,"end":33,"text":"這個是昨天食藥署署長所說的嘛 是不是這樣子"},{"start":33,"end":37,"text":"怎麼會 剛剛賴事報委員在問也是問說原因"},{"start":37,"end":40,"text":"那你們昨天才開了記者會 那你們記者會不是有講到是說"},{"start":40,"end":47,"text":"有可能是去年中聯他們四肢放寬 從原本的0.5%放寬變成是5%"},{"start":47,"end":52,"text":"而造成說有可能這個致癌的因子大增 是不是這樣"},{"start":52,"end":56,"text":"委員 現在我們就認為是說整個本篇皮在中聯這個案子"},{"start":56,"end":62,"text":"當然我們的調查小組應該在這個 目前應該是在禮拜五會有一個調查報告出來"},{"start":62,"end":68,"text":"可是你昨天的記者會你們才講 而讓國人也覺得是說你怎麼會中聯放寬"},{"start":68,"end":73,"text":"因為5%的percentage其實是食品加工最高只有0.5%"},{"start":73,"end":78,"text":"5%的percentage是連所謂的食品加工第四級都不合格"},{"start":78,"end":82,"text":"所以他當然很可惡 但我現在更要問的是說 到底我們現在釐清了沒"},{"start":82,"end":84,"text":"因為已經過了23天了"},{"start":84,"end":87,"text":"委員 所以我們現在就是包含他的初步調查結果裡面"},{"start":87,"end":90,"text":"除了包含前面的原料還有中間的製程"},{"start":90,"end":95,"text":"那至少我在這邊我可以跟委員說 他的HACCP內部的各節點控管"},{"start":95,"end":97,"text":"中聯這邊的控管品質有問題"},{"start":97,"end":103,"text":"好 所以如果說從去年食藥署署長昨天開記者會講了嘛"},{"start":103,"end":107,"text":"就是說從去年就已經有中聯放寬了 那我想請教一下"},{"start":107,"end":113,"text":"到目前為止我們掌握從去年他放寬之後到現在總共生產了多少了 有了沒"},{"start":113,"end":116,"text":"委員 去年我們在專案這邊"},{"start":116,"end":118,"text":"因為他就已經不是今年4月到6月了"},{"start":118,"end":119,"text":"委員 那你"},{"start":119,"end":122,"text":"你今天的報告還是跟我們強調是所謂的4月到6月"},{"start":122,"end":126,"text":"但是如果昨天衛福部都已經開正式記者會講"},{"start":126,"end":131,"text":"有可能是去年中聯他就私自放寬這樣的一個樂損率"},{"start":131,"end":137,"text":"那代表從去年生產的油品有可能就有問題 只是沒有被稽查出來"},{"start":137,"end":142,"text":"那我們要問的是 去年到現在中聯總共生產了多少油"},{"start":142,"end":145,"text":"多少批 現在有沒有掌握 我要再給你"},{"start":145,"end":150,"text":"不過我先跟委員報告就是說 第一 去年我們在專案這邊"},{"start":150,"end":153,"text":"台中市衛生局去年有去對中聯做檢驗"},{"start":153,"end":158,"text":"現在有沒有掌握 你容我報告 我們4月到6月份我們目前檢驗到"},{"start":158,"end":162,"text":"就除了他現有的那7批有問題的我們不讓他上架"},{"start":162,"end":166,"text":"而且要求要繼續要銷毀之外 另外的19批我們現在驗起來是合格"},{"start":166,"end":169,"text":"今年1月到3月我們能掌握到採樣到的"},{"start":169,"end":174,"text":"目前1月到3月中聯這邊的油出來是合格的 幾批 30批"},{"start":174,"end":178,"text":"中聯現在有30批 那去年從去年放寬到現在他到底總共生產幾批"},{"start":178,"end":183,"text":"我這樣講 他所謂的這個放寬 就算他放寬他後續在學CCP裡面"},{"start":183,"end":187,"text":"他的製程就應該能夠做處理 市長沒有 你真的沒有辦法"},{"start":187,"end":191,"text":"我覺得國人這樣沒有辦法接受 為什麼 來 部長"},{"start":191,"end":196,"text":"今天早上我們有看到另外一個新聞是說 中聯的廠長他又被羈押"},{"start":196,"end":200,"text":"因為他可能涉嫌有隱匿證據或者是有串供的一個嫌疑"},{"start":200,"end":204,"text":"所以說被檢調求處 現在應該是羈押中了 因為剛剛有新聞出來"},{"start":204,"end":209,"text":"好 我想要確認一下 從事發6月30號到現在"},{"start":209,"end":214,"text":"23天過去了 才羈押這樣的一個廠長 我們之前其實上禮拜"},{"start":214,"end":216,"text":"我在事發法之前我會有跟你諮詢過 我會講是說"},{"start":216,"end":222,"text":"會不會有串供之虞 而且到底是經營人造假 還是經手人造假"},{"start":222,"end":228,"text":"還是上下交響賊都有造假的狀況 那今天這一個廠長的生涯"},{"start":228,"end":233,"text":"那有沒有其他人的生涯不知道 但我現在想要問的更明確的地方是"},{"start":233,"end":239,"text":"那到底我們有沒有掌握 從去年中聯放寬所謂的樂損率之後"},{"start":239,"end":244,"text":"到現在他總共生產了多少批 以及相關的這一些資料"},{"start":244,"end":250,"text":"有沒有完整的釐清 我想這個是一個偵查的一個案件"},{"start":250,"end":255,"text":"那我想各界的一些的聲音 還有委員關心的這個問題"},{"start":255,"end":261,"text":"以及我們又從食藥署還有一些的 我想檢察機關都會詳細的來了解"},{"start":261,"end":265,"text":"部長 我現在針對個案的方法 我只想要釐清一件事"},{"start":265,"end":269,"text":"因為這是國人大家有關心的 因為這不是只是4月到6月嘛"},{"start":269,"end":275,"text":"自癌物不會憑空出來 所以我們現在抽絲剝繭一層一層"},{"start":275,"end":280,"text":"現在衛福部告訴我們 從去年有可能他源頭放寬的樂損率"},{"start":280,"end":284,"text":"造成說他的自癌物的情況上升"},{"start":284,"end":289,"text":"那如果說真的是這樣的話 那有可能從去年生產的有品就有問題"},{"start":289,"end":292,"text":"那如果說從去年生產的有品就有問題的話"},{"start":292,"end":296,"text":"依照食品相關法規 其實有兩個部分 第一"},{"start":296,"end":301,"text":"食品加工工廠他都有義務要保留所有的成品"},{"start":301,"end":306,"text":"直到他的有效期限結束 所以換言之中聯或者是說他下面的"},{"start":306,"end":311,"text":"泰山福壽應該都要有這些存品 那我們有沒有把這些存品全部都扣押起來"},{"start":311,"end":317,"text":"這個我沒辦法跟你講 還是只有4月到6月 這個我想檢察官對這個案件會向上溯源"},{"start":317,"end":322,"text":"那外界有質疑就是說 這個4月以前是不是有 那我想檢察官都會"},{"start":322,"end":326,"text":"我相信檢察官都會一併的了解調查 那這部分"},{"start":326,"end":330,"text":"所以到現在我們也沒有辦法掌握說 到底他查的是4月到6月"},{"start":330,"end":336,"text":"跟委員報告 我沒辦法去過問這個案件 但是他的過程的話我們是有"},{"start":336,"end":340,"text":"那我再請教一下衛福部 我們今天食藥署副署長有來吧"},{"start":340,"end":346,"text":"來 慈父署長嘛 我想請教一下"},{"start":346,"end":352,"text":"昨天署長已經有開這個記者會 那也講說熱損率的一個部分"},{"start":352,"end":356,"text":"那我現在只想問的是 從熱損率去年 我先確認一下"},{"start":356,"end":360,"text":"我們相關法規 因為我跟地方政府也求證過 相關法規是"},{"start":360,"end":366,"text":"如果食品工廠的成品他應該要保留純樣 直到他保留到有效期限"},{"start":366,"end":370,"text":"所以換言之 一般的沙拉油他的有效期限是兩年左右"},{"start":370,"end":376,"text":"所以我們現在應該是可以追溯到這個工廠 他可能會有兩年"},{"start":376,"end":381,"text":"這兩年中間的這個製程的一個成品 是不是 那現在這些成品有多少"},{"start":381,"end":386,"text":"是跟委員報告的部分 那就是有關於流樣的部分 那個是依法"},{"start":386,"end":392,"text":"其實廠裡頭都必須要去流樣的 是 對 那至於他生產的相關部分"},{"start":392,"end":395,"text":"在我們的負追星 已經有流樣嘛 所以我現在想要問的是"},{"start":395,"end":400,"text":"你昨天你們開記者會 這個我今天沒有任何黨派之分"},{"start":400,"end":403,"text":"純粹是為了國人 因為每一個人都可能吃到"},{"start":403,"end":408,"text":"如果說你今天只有告訴我4月到6月 你今天報告到還是只有4月到6月"},{"start":408,"end":414,"text":"但是你們昨天的記者會講是說可能去年年中 中聯就已經放寬他的標準"},{"start":414,"end":418,"text":"那換言之從去年年中的生產油可能都有問題"},{"start":418,"end":424,"text":"那現在我們要問的是 從去年年中到現在到底生產了幾批"},{"start":424,"end":428,"text":"你只要告訴我 現在有沒有掌握 從去年到現在生產了幾批就好"},{"start":428,"end":433,"text":"我們回去統計回來好不好 我們回去統計 統計之後再報告"},{"start":434,"end":442,"text":"市長 我覺得這有點離譜喔 過了23天 你們去昨天正式的記者會"},{"start":442,"end":447,"text":"告訴國人是說中聯從去年就有問題 結果對現在還不知道說"},{"start":447,"end":451,"text":"從去年到現在有問題的狀況到底生產油品有多少"},{"start":451,"end":456,"text":"所以他不是只有2萬7千公噸 他不是只有4月到6月2萬7千公噸"},{"start":456,"end":460,"text":"他可能從去年到現在都有 委員我要再強調一次"},{"start":460,"end":466,"text":"去年台中市政府的檢驗是合格的 至少我們相信台中市政府"},{"start":466,"end":468,"text":"那如果不相信也可以 我們再來處理"},{"start":468,"end":471,"text":"市長 你現在的問題 來兩個部分"},{"start":471,"end":476,"text":"部長告訴我們說中聯他有這相關造假的狀況 對不對"},{"start":476,"end":478,"text":"所以說你才把相關的數據都送減掉"},{"start":478,"end":481,"text":"那另外一個部分就是說你如果說已經確認"},{"start":481,"end":485,"text":"這個公司他已經很惡劣 從去年就已經有造假的狀況"},{"start":485,"end":489,"text":"並且他擅自放寬 誰給他全力讓他擅自放寬這樣的一個漏水率"},{"start":489,"end":493,"text":"第一個部分造假的 是不是有造假的情形"},{"start":493,"end":495,"text":"我們現在都要一切再處理"},{"start":495,"end":499,"text":"那如果說你現在都還不知道 從去年到現在到底有幾批的話"},{"start":499,"end":505,"text":"那我是不是更合理的懷疑你根本沒有去保存或是說扣押他的那些樣品"},{"start":505,"end":507,"text":"會不會那些樣品早就被銷毀了"},{"start":507,"end":511,"text":"委員你剛剛有提到 依照法律他們本來就要留樣"},{"start":511,"end":515,"text":"是 他們應該要留樣 但我現在要問 就是因為他們應該要留樣"},{"start":515,"end":518,"text":"所以我現在才要問你是說 我們去稽查到底有沒有去掌握"},{"start":518,"end":520,"text":"他現在留樣的那些樣品有幾批"},{"start":520,"end":522,"text":"我們這一次 因為這樣子說"},{"start":522,"end":524,"text":"所以現在還沒有辦法告訴我答案"},{"start":524,"end":526,"text":"還沒有辦法告訴國人答案"},{"start":526,"end":528,"text":"委員他們可以提供留樣給我們 但是我們這一次"},{"start":528,"end":531,"text":"像我剛剛說前面我們現在驗出來合格的19批"},{"start":531,"end":534,"text":"我們都是從其他的廠商的留樣"},{"start":534,"end":536,"text":"因為我們認為中聯制政府我們也對他們不信任"},{"start":536,"end":539,"text":"這就是你完全輕忽 這也是為什麼"},{"start":539,"end":543,"text":"我今天完全不想要再講說你上個禮拜還講到其他的那種什麼"},{"start":543,"end":546,"text":"雞排致癌物等等的 我不想再提那些事情"},{"start":546,"end":549,"text":"是因為我認為我們現在要就事論事"},{"start":549,"end":552,"text":"來去抽屍剝繭找出問題的原因"},{"start":552,"end":556,"text":"而如果說你現在還focus在所謂的4月到6月"},{"start":556,"end":559,"text":"我覺得你是輕忽了這一次的一個食安問題"},{"start":559,"end":562,"text":"你也輕忽了國人對於健康的重視"},{"start":562,"end":566,"text":"因為現在這批的問題 如果說你現在了解掌握的話"},{"start":566,"end":569,"text":"就發覺是說絕對不是今天23天過去了"},{"start":569,"end":572,"text":"還有你們報告出來講的4月到6月而已"},{"start":572,"end":575,"text":"他可能是從去年就已經開始"},{"start":575,"end":579,"text":"而現在如果食藥署23天過去都還沒有去掌握"},{"start":579,"end":582,"text":"他到底有多少批 多少的狀況"},{"start":582,"end":586,"text":"他可能不合格率更高 他可能從去年就已經開始生產這樣的油"},{"start":586,"end":590,"text":"所以我認為廠商同志政府去年給我們的報告是錯誤的嗎"},{"start":592,"end":595,"text":"地方署管機關去年去驗給我們合格報告"},{"start":595,"end":598,"text":"我現在要跟你講的是"},{"start":598,"end":601,"text":"找出問題的原因 現在的問題是在於是說"},{"start":601,"end":603,"text":"我們要一起找出正確的原因"},{"start":603,"end":606,"text":"你不要在那邊每一次"},{"start":606,"end":608,"text":"我覺得我最難過的地方就是每一次"},{"start":608,"end":612,"text":"我們在這邊希望能夠找出事實的真相"},{"start":612,"end":614,"text":"而你們都沒有辦法提供"},{"start":614,"end":616,"text":"23天已經過去了"},{"start":616,"end":618,"text":"23天已經過去了"},{"start":618,"end":622,"text":"如果23天已經過去了 我們司法法制委員會"},{"start":622,"end":625,"text":"衛環委員會都已經排了那麼多的專案報告"},{"start":625,"end":628,"text":"結果你們都還沒有 連問一個最基本的"},{"start":628,"end":631,"text":"從去年到現在到底有幾批"},{"start":631,"end":633,"text":"去年到現在到底有幾批"},{"start":633,"end":635,"text":"去年到現在到底生產了多少量"},{"start":635,"end":638,"text":"去年到現在到底有多少量被國人吃下肚"},{"start":638,"end":640,"text":"都還沒有辦法告訴國人的話"},{"start":640,"end":643,"text":"那我們可以把去年到現在所有批次調出來給委員"},{"start":643,"end":645,"text":"我真的沒有辦法了解"},{"start":645,"end":649,"text":"你們這樣一個態度到底是什麼樣"},{"start":649,"end":652,"text":"但是我要再強調我們的專案"},{"start":652,"end":655,"text":"而且台中市政府本來就有在去年做了相關的檢查"},{"start":655,"end":657,"text":"我再強調一次"},{"start":657,"end":661,"text":"去年放寬能夠讓他自行放寬的熱損率"},{"start":661,"end":663,"text":"這已經是一個很嚴重的疏失"},{"start":663,"end":666,"text":"那這樣的話去年台中市政府去做的檢驗"},{"start":666,"end":668,"text":"是怎麼做出來的委員"},{"start":668,"end":670,"text":"市長 而這樣的一個疏失"},{"start":670,"end":672,"text":"如果說到現在23天了"},{"start":672,"end":675,"text":"23天了都還沒有辦法找到這個原因的話"},{"start":675,"end":677,"text":"沒有辦法找到到底有多少的"},{"start":677,"end":678,"text":"最合格的"},{"start":678,"end":682,"text":"多少的一個流傳"},{"start":682,"end":686,"text":"發言 等他發言完之後再請市長您回答好嗎"},{"start":688,"end":692,"text":"部長 市長 我與眾新常講一下"},{"start":692,"end":695,"text":"今天 如果說已經23天了"},{"start":695,"end":697,"text":"用一樣的標準"},{"start":697,"end":700,"text":"我們已經知道說這一個中聯非常的可惡"},{"start":700,"end":703,"text":"你到現在都還沒有辦法去保存證據"},{"start":703,"end":706,"text":"都還沒有辦法去釐清說到底從去年到現在的狀況"},{"start":706,"end":710,"text":"我們在7月3號跟我們的檢調都一起進去保存了證據"},{"start":710,"end":711,"text":"你都沒有辦法回答"},{"start":711,"end":713,"text":"那你這樣跟我講說要保存證據嗎"},{"start":713,"end":715,"text":"我們跟檢調一起已經保存了證據"},{"start":715,"end":716,"text":"我就問你最簡單的問題"},{"start":716,"end":718,"text":"從去年到現在到底生產了幾批"},{"start":718,"end":719,"text":"有幾批"},{"start":719,"end":721,"text":"這個我可以調給委員"},{"start":721,"end":722,"text":"好 那我想說"},{"start":722,"end":723,"text":"你連現在都沒有辦法回答"},{"start":723,"end":724,"text":"我真的沒有辦法想去"},{"start":724,"end":726,"text":"市長要提供從去年到今年"},{"start":726,"end":728,"text":"我們可以把批次都交給委員"},{"start":728,"end":729,"text":"應該是到6月吧"},{"start":729,"end":731,"text":"6月所有的批次的報告"},{"start":731,"end":733,"text":"然後都提供給我們"},{"start":733,"end":734,"text":"是"},{"start":734,"end":736,"text":"這個就交給司法法法制委員會"},{"start":736,"end":737,"text":"好 可以"},{"start":737,"end":739,"text":"然後我們就會提供給所有委員來參考"},{"start":739,"end":741,"text":"好 謝謝洪委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}