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而這樣的一個疏失"},{"start":670,"end":672,"text":"如果說到現在23天了"},{"start":672,"end":675,"text":"23天了都還沒有辦法找到這個原因的話"},{"start":675,"end":677,"text":"沒有辦法找到到底有多少的"},{"start":677,"end":678,"text":"最合格的"},{"start":678,"end":682,"text":"多少的一個流傳"},{"start":682,"end":686,"text":"發言 等他發言完之後再請市長您回答好嗎"},{"start":688,"end":692,"text":"部長 市長 我與眾新常講一下"},{"start":692,"end":695,"text":"今天 如果說已經23天了"},{"start":695,"end":697,"text":"用一樣的標準"},{"start":697,"end":700,"text":"我們已經知道說這一個中聯非常的可惡"},{"start":700,"end":703,"text":"你到現在都還沒有辦法去保存證據"},{"start":703,"end":706,"text":"都還沒有辦法去釐清說到底從去年到現在的狀況"},{"start":706,"end":710,"text":"我們在7月3號跟我們的檢調都一起進去保存了證據"},{"start":710,"end":711,"text":"你都沒有辦法回答"},{"start":711,"end":713,"text":"那你這樣跟我講說要保存證據嗎"},{"start":713,"end":715,"text":"我們跟檢調一起已經保存了證據"},{"start":715,"end":716,"text":"我就問你最簡單的問題"},{"start":716,"end":718,"text":"從去年到現在到底生產了幾批"},{"start":718,"end":719,"text":"有幾批"},{"start":719,"end":721,"text":"這個我可以調給委員"},{"start":721,"end":722,"text":"好 那我想說"},{"start":722,"end":723,"text":"你連現在都沒有辦法回答"},{"start":723,"end":724,"text":"我真的沒有辦法想去"},{"start":724,"end":726,"text":"市長要提供從去年到今年"},{"start":726,"end":728,"text":"我們可以把批次都交給委員"},{"start":728,"end":729,"text":"應該是到6月吧"},{"start":729,"end":731,"text":"6月所有的批次的報告"},{"start":731,"end":733,"text":"然後都提供給我們"},{"start":733,"end":734,"text":"是"},{"start":734,"end":736,"text":"這個就交給司法法法制委員會"},{"start":736,"end":737,"text":"好 可以"},{"start":737,"end":739,"text":"然後我們就會提供給所有委員來參考"},{"start":739,"end":741,"text":"好 謝謝洪委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:51:54.210526+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:51:57.789474+08:00","text":"主席謝謝，麻煩請衛福部次長跟法務部部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T11:51:58.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:51:59.777778+08:00","text":"麻煩請部長跟次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:52:03.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:52:03.500000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:52:04.129032+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:52:20.800000+08:00","text":"部長、次長，我再確認一下，因為昨天其實衛福部食藥署就已經有開記者會，提到有可能這次油品問題主要的原因是去年中聯放寬它的黃豆熱損率，這是昨天食藥署署長說的，是不是這樣子？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:52:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:52:39.761905+08:00","text":"怎麼會……剛剛賴士葆委員也在問原因，那你們昨天才開了記者會，你們記者會不是有講到有可能是因為去年中聯私自放寬，從原本的0.5%放寬到5%，因而造成致癌的因子大增，是不是這樣？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:52:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:52:49.818182+08:00","text":"委員，有關中聯油的苯駢芘這個案子，我們的調查小組應該是在禮拜五會有一個調查報告出來……","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:52:50.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:53:09.857143+08:00","text":"不是，昨天的記者會你們才講的，國人也覺得怎麼中聯會放寬，因為5%這樣的百分比，其實食品加工最高只有0.5%，5%是連所謂的食品加工第四級都不合格，所以他當然很可惡，但我現在更要問的是到底我們現在釐清了沒？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:53:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:53:11.750000+08:00","text":"因為已經過了23天了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:53:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:53:25+08:00","text":"委員，所以在他的初步調查結果裡面，包含前面的原料還有中間的製程，至少在這邊我可以跟委員說，他的HACCP、內部的各節點控管，中聯這邊的控管品質有問題。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:53:27.347826+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:53:40.032258+08:00","text":"食藥署署長昨天開記者會也有講，從去年中聯就已經放寬，我想請教一下，到目前為止，我們有沒有掌握到從去年放寬之後，到現在總共生產了多少的油？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:53:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:53:43.727273+08:00","text":"委員，去年我們在專案這邊……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:53:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:04.777778+08:00","text":"因為他就已經不是今年4月到6月了，你今天的報告還是跟我們強調是4月到6月，但是如果昨天衛福部都已經開正式記者會講說有可能是去年中聯就私自放寬熱損率，那代表從去年開始生產的油品就可能有問題，只是沒有被稽查出來。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:05.227273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:11.800000+08:00","text":"我們要問的是，從去年到現在，中聯總共生產了多少油、多少批號，現在有沒有掌握？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:20.812500+08:00","text":"委員，批次部分我要再給你，不過我先跟委員報告，第一，在專案這邊，臺中市衛生局去年有去對中聯做檢驗，今年……","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:22.200000+08:00","text":"現在有沒有掌握？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:22.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:41.750000+08:00","text":"你容我報告，關於我們4月到6月份目前檢驗到的，除了他現有那7批有問題的我們不讓他上架而且要求要繼續銷毀之外，另外的19批我們現在驗起來是合格，今年1月到3月我們能掌握到、採樣到的，目前1月到3月中聯這邊出來的油是合格的。幾批？30批。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:42.769231+08:00","text":"中聯現在有30批……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:42.769231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:43.769231+08:00","text":"今年1到3月……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:42.923077+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:45.846154+08:00","text":"那從去年放寬到現在，他到底總共生產幾批？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:52.913043+08:00","text":"我這樣講，所謂的這個放寬，就算他放寬，後續在HACCP裡面他的製程就應該能夠做處理。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:53.956522+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:54:58.157895+08:00","text":"真的沒有辦法，我覺得國人這樣沒有辦法接受，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:54:58.578947+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:55:11.846154+08:00","text":"部長，今天早上我們有看到另外一個新聞是中聯的廠長被羈押，因為他可能有隱匿證據或是串供的嫌疑，現在應該是羈押中，剛剛有新聞出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:55:12.312500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:55:33.120000+08:00","text":"我想要確認一下，從事發6月30號到現在，23天過去了才羈押這位廠長，其實上禮拜我在司法及法制委員會有質詢過你，我說會不會有串供之虞，而且到底是經營人造假，還是經手人造假，還是上下交相賊、都有造假的狀況？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:55:33.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:55:53.909091+08:00","text":"今天這一位廠長被聲押，那有沒有其他人被聲押不知道，但我現在想要問的更明確的地方是，到底我們有沒有掌握從去年中聯放寬所謂的熱損率之後到現在總共生產了多少批以及相關的資料，有沒有完整的釐清？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:55:54.727273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:56:08.785714+08:00","text":"這是一個偵查的案件，對於各界的聲音、委員關心的問題以及我們又從食藥署還有一些的……我想檢察機關都會詳細來了解與調查。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:56:08.785714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:56:09.785714+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:56:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:56:14.217391+08:00","text":"部長，我現在針對個案部分只想要釐清一件事，因為這是國人、大家所關心……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:56:14.217391+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:56:15.217391+08:00","text":"我知道這是國人關心的問題。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:56:15.086957+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:56:36.814815+08:00","text":"因為這不只是4月到6月，致癌物不會憑空出來，所以我們現在一直一層一層的抽絲剝繭，現在衛福部告訴我們，有可能是因為他從去年在源頭放寬了熱損率，造成致癌物上升的情況，如果真的是這樣的話，那有可能從去年開始生產的油品就有問題。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:56:37.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:56:58.838710+08:00","text":"如果從去年開始生產的油品就有問題的話，依照食品相關法規，其實有兩個部分，第一，食品加工工廠都有義務要保留所有的成品直到有效期限結束，所以換言之，中聯或者是下面的泰山、福壽應該都要有這些存品，那你們有沒有把這些存品全部都扣押起來？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:56:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:57:00.272727+08:00","text":"這個我沒辦法跟你……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:57:00.636364+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:57:01.727273+08:00","text":"還是只有4月到6月？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:57:02.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:57:13.789474+08:00","text":"我想檢察官對這個案件會向上溯源，當外界質疑這個部分在4月以前是不是就有，我相信檢察官都會一併了解、調查，這部分因為……","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:57:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:57:17.833333+08:00","text":"所以到現在你們也沒有辦法掌握到底他查的是4月到6月還是更以前？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-23T11:57:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:57:23.785714+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我沒辦法去過問這個案件，但是它的過程我們是有……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:57:24.173913+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:57:27.826087+08:00","text":"沒關係，我再請教一下衛福部，今天食藥署副署長有來吧？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:57:27.826087+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:57:29.500000+08:00","text":"有，在這邊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:57:29.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:57:30.500000+08:00","text":"遲副署長嘛。對，請。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:57:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:58:07.035714+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，昨天署長已經開記者會，也講到熱損率的部分，我現在想問的是，熱損率從去年……我先確認一下相關法規，我跟地方政府也求證過，相關法規的規定是，食品工廠的成品應該要保留存樣直到有效期限，所以換言之，一般沙拉油的有效期限是2年左右，所以我們現在應該可以追溯到這間工廠會有這2年中間的製程成品，是不是？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:58:07.392857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:58:08.821429+08:00","text":"現在這一些成品有多少？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"遲副署長蘭慧","start":"2026-07-23T11:58:09.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:58:17+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關於留樣的部分，依法廠裡頭都必須要留樣。是！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"遲副署長蘭慧","start":"2026-07-23T11:58:17.692308+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:58:20.391304+08:00","text":"至於生產的相關部分，在我們的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:58:20.913043+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:58:45.789474+08:00","text":"已經有留樣嘛，所以我現在想要問的是，昨天你們才開記者會，我今天沒有任何黨派之分，純粹是為了國人，因為每一個人都可能吃到，如果你今天只有告訴我4月到6月……你今天的報告都還是只有4月到6月，但是你們昨天的記者會表示，可能去年年中中聯就已經放寬他的標準，那換言之，從去年年中生產的油都可能有問題。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:58:46.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:58:51.750000+08:00","text":"現在我們要問的是，從去年年中到現在到底生產了幾批？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:58:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:58:55.846154+08:00","text":"你只要告訴我，現在有沒有掌握、從去年到現在生產了幾批就好，有沒有？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:58:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:58:58.083333+08:00","text":"我們回去統計，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:58:59.541667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:00.791667+08:00","text":"統計之後跟委員報告。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:00.791667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:02.320000+08:00","text":"現在還要統計！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:02.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:18.809524+08:00","text":"次長，我覺得這有點離譜，過了23天，你們昨天正式的記者會告訴國人，中聯從去年就有問題，結果到現在還不知道從去年到現在有問題的狀況、到底生產的油品有多少！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:18.809524+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:19.809524+08:00","text":"我們昨天的報告不是說中聯去年就有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:26+08:00","text":"所以他不是只有2萬7,000公噸，他不是只有4月到6月的2萬7,000公噸，他可能從去年到現在都有！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:26.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:35.866667+08:00","text":"委員，我要再強調一次，去年臺中市政府的檢驗是合格的，至少我們相信臺中市政府，如果不相信也可以，我們再來處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:36.230769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:43.772727+08:00","text":"次長，現在的問題分兩個部分，部長告訴我們中聯有相關的造假狀況，對不對？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:45.600000+08:00","text":"所以你們才把相關的數據都送檢調……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:45.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:46.600000+08:00","text":"所以我們後來的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:46.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T11:59:56.846154+08:00","text":"另外一個部分，如果你已經確認這個公司很惡劣，從去年就已經有造假狀況，並且他擅自放寬，誰給他權力讓他擅自放寬這樣的熱損率？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T11:59:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:00:02.818182+08:00","text":"委員，第一個部分，關於是不是有造假、造假的情形，我們現在跟檢調一起在處理。","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:00:03.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:00:14.846154+08:00","text":"所以你現在都還沒有去……好，如果你目前都還不知道從去年到現在到底有幾批的話，我更合理的懷疑你根本沒有去保存或是扣押他的那些樣品，會不會那些樣品早就被銷毀了？","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:00:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:00:18.800000+08:00","text":"委員，你剛剛有提到，依照法律他們本來就要留樣，我們……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:00:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:00:27.846154+08:00","text":"是，他們應該要留樣，但我現在要問，就是因為他們應該要留樣，所以我現在才要問你，你們去稽查到底有沒有掌握他現在留樣的那些樣品有幾批？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:00:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:00:29.818182+08:00","text":"我們這一次……應該這樣子說，委員，這一次……","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:00:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:00:31.857143+08:00","text":"所以現在還沒有辦法告訴我答案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:00:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:00:33.818182+08:00","text":"還沒有辦法告訴國人答案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:00:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:00:43.900000+08:00","text":"委員，他們可以提供留樣給我們，但是我們這一次……像我剛剛說的，我們現在驗出來前面合格的19批都是從其他廠商的留樣，因為我們也對中聯不信任。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:00:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:01:06.833333+08:00","text":"你看，次長，這就是你完全輕忽，這也是為什麼我今天完全不想要再講你上個禮拜還提到其他那些雞排致癌物等等的，我不想再提那些事情，是因為我認為我們現在要就事論事，抽絲剝繭來找出問題的原因，如果你現在還focus在所謂的4月到6月，我覺得你是輕忽了這一次的食安問題……","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:01:06.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:01:07.833333+08:00","text":"1到3月我們也……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:01:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:01:09.785714+08:00","text":"你也輕忽了國人對於健康的重視……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:01:09.785714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:01:11.714286+08:00","text":"對，所以我們往前驗了1到3月了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:01:11.714286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:01:34.166667+08:00","text":"如果你現在了解、掌握現在這一批問題的話，就會發覺絕對不是今天已經23天過去了，還是你們報告講的4月到6月而已，他可能是從去年就已經開始，而現在如果食藥署23天過去都還沒有掌握他到底有多少批、多少的狀況，他可能不合格率更高，他可能從去年就已經開始生產這樣的油、可能用造假的方式，所以這樣的方式……","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:01:35.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:01:37.833333+08:00","text":"委員你這樣講，所以臺中市政府去年給我們的報告是錯誤的嗎？","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:01:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:01:42.823529+08:00","text":"地方主管機關去年去驗，給我們合格報告耶。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:01:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:01:50.833333+08:00","text":"次長，我現在要跟你講的是，找出問題的原因，現在的問題在於我們要一起找出正確的原因。是。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:01:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:03.666667+08:00","text":"你不要在那邊每一次……我覺得我最難過的地方就是，每一次我們在這邊希望能夠找出事實的真相，而你們都沒有辦法提供，23天已經過去了，結果你現在……","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:03.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:06.470588+08:00","text":"剛剛也跟委員報告，調查小組最快明天可以說明完整的報告。","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:06.470588+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:14.312500+08:00","text":"23天已經過去了，我們司法及法制委員會、衛環委員會都已經排了那麼多的專案報告，結果你們都還沒有……","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:14.312500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:15.312500+08:00","text":"委員，我要尊重調查小組的獨立調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:14.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:36.428571+08:00","text":"連問一個最基本的，從去年到現在到底有幾批、從去年到現在到底生產了多少量、從去年到現在到底有多少量被國人吃下肚，這些都還沒有辦法告訴國人的話，那我真的沒有辦法了解你們這樣的態度到底是什麼！","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:36.428571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:37.428571+08:00","text":"我們可以把去年到現在所有的批次調出來給委員，去年到現在的批次很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:42.857143+08:00","text":"但是我要再強調，我們有專案，而且臺中市政府本來就有在去年做了相關的檢查。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:50.833333+08:00","text":"我再強調一次，去年能夠讓他自行放寬熱損率已經是一個很嚴重的疏失，而這樣的一個疏失……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:55.777778+08:00","text":"那這樣的話，去年臺中市政府做的檢驗是怎麼做出來的？委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:56.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:02:59.750000+08:00","text":"次長，這樣的一個疏失到現在23天了……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:02:59.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:00.750000+08:00","text":"食安法第四十一條地方主管機關……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:02.812500+08:00","text":"23天了都還沒有辦法找到這個原因的話……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:02.812500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:03.812500+08:00","text":"是他的主管機關……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:04.833333+08:00","text":"沒有辦法找到到底有多少的留樣留存……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:04.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:07.142857+08:00","text":"他們給我們的報告是合格的，當然我們可以請人來查……","quality":0.136},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:07.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:13.333333+08:00","text":"請尊重洪委員的發言，等他發言完之後再請次長回答。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:33.857143+08:00","text":"部長、次長，我語重心長講一下，今天已經23天了，如果用一樣的標準，我們已經知道中聯非常的可惡，你到現在都還沒有辦法去保存證據、都還沒有辦法去釐清從去年到現在的狀況……","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:37.809524+08:00","text":"我們在7月3號就跟檢調一起進去保全了證據。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:40.857143+08:00","text":"你到現在連我問最基本的問題都沒辦法回答，你這樣叫保存證據嗎？","quality":0.536},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:42.857143+08:00","text":"現在這個廠就是我們跟檢調已經一起保存了證據。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:45.846154+08:00","text":"我就問你最簡單的問題，從去年到現在到底生產了幾批？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:46.666667+08:00","text":"有幾批、數量有多少？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:48.777778+08:00","text":"這個我可以調給委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:51.666667+08:00","text":"你現在連數字都沒辦法回答，我真的沒有辦法相信。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:51.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:54+08:00","text":"好，接下來請次長提供從去年到今年6月所有批次的報告給司法及法制委員會，我們會提供給所有的委員參考。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-23T12:03:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:03:55.833333+08:00","text":"可以，我們可以把批次都交給委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T12:04:07.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-23T12:04:08.666667+08:00","text":"謝謝洪委員，請先回座。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T12:04:09.166667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:04:15.738095+08:00","text":"上午會議繼續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T12:04:16.038095+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:04:22.038095+08:00","text":"接下來請邱慧洳委員、邱慧洳委員，邱慧洳委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T12:04:22.338095+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:04:27.195238+08:00","text":"蔡春綢委員、蔡春綢委員，蔡春綢委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-23T12:04:27.495238+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-23T12:04:29.495238+08:00","text":"有請劉書彬委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":960,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時51分）主席謝謝，麻煩請衛福部次長跟法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩請部長跟次長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長、次長，我再確認一下，因為昨天其實衛福部食藥署就已經有開記者會，提到有可能這次油品問題主要的原因是去年中聯放寬它的黃豆熱損率，這是昨天食藥署署長說的，是不是這樣子？怎麼會……剛剛賴士葆委員也在問原因，那你們昨天才開了記者會，你們記者會不是有講到有可能是因為去年中聯私自放寬，從原本的0.5%放寬到5%，因而造成致癌的因子大增，是不是這樣？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，有關中聯油的苯駢芘這個案子，我們的調查小組應該是在禮拜五會有一個調查報告出來……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，昨天的記者會你們才講的，國人也覺得怎麼中聯會放寬，因為5%這樣的百分比，其實食品加工最高只有0.5%，5%是連所謂的食品加工第四級都不合格，所以他當然很可惡，但我現在更要問的是到底我們現在釐清了沒？因為已經過了23天了。"],["林次長靜儀：委員，所以在他的初步調查結果裡面，包含前面的原料還有中間的製程，至少在這邊我可以跟委員說，他的HACCP、內部的各節點控管，中聯這邊的控管品質有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。食藥署署長昨天開記者會也有講，從去年中聯就已經放寬，我想請教一下，到目前為止，我們有沒有掌握到從去年放寬之後，到現在總共生產了多少的油？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，去年我們在專案這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為他就已經不是今年4月到6月了，你今天的報告還是跟我們強調是4月到6月，但是如果昨天衛福部都已經開正式記者會講說有可能是去年中聯就私自放寬熱損率，那代表從去年開始生產的油品就可能有問題，只是沒有被稽查出來。我們要問的是，從去年到現在，中聯總共生產了多少油、多少批號，現在有沒有掌握？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，批次部分我要再給你，不過我先跟委員報告，第一，在專案這邊，臺中市衛生局去年有去對中聯做檢驗，今年……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在有沒有掌握？"],["林次長靜儀：你容我報告，關於我們4月到6月份目前檢驗到的，除了他現有那7批有問題的我們不讓他上架而且要求要繼續銷毀之外，另外的19批我們現在驗起來是合格，今年1月到3月我們能掌握到、採樣到的，目前1月到3月中聯這邊出來的油是合格的。"],["洪委員孟楷：幾批？"],["林次長靜儀：30批。"],["洪委員孟楷：中聯現在有30批……"],["林次長靜儀：今年1到3月……"],["洪委員孟楷：那從去年放寬到現在，他到底總共生產幾批？"],["林次長靜儀：我這樣講，所謂的這個放寬，就算他放寬，後續在HACCP裡面他的製程就應該能夠做處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：真的沒有辦法，我覺得國人這樣沒有辦法接受，為什麼？部長，今天早上我們有看到另外一個新聞是中聯的廠長被羈押，因為他可能有隱匿證據或是串供的嫌疑，現在應該是羈押中，剛剛有新聞出來。","我想要確認一下，從事發6月30號到現在，23天過去了才羈押這位廠長，其實上禮拜我在司法及法制委員會有質詢過你，我說會不會有串供之虞，而且到底是經營人造假，還是經手人造假，還是上下交相賊、都有造假的狀況？今天這一位廠長被聲押，那有沒有其他人被聲押不知道，但我現在想要問的更明確的地方是，到底我們有沒有掌握從去年中聯放寬所謂的熱損率之後到現在總共生產了多少批以及相關的資料，有沒有完整的釐清？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個偵查的案件，對於各界的聲音、委員關心的問題以及我們又從食藥署還有一些的……我想檢察機關都會詳細來了解與調查。跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我現在針對個案部分只想要釐清一件事，因為這是國人、大家所關心……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我知道這是國人關心的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為這不只是4月到6月，致癌物不會憑空出來，所以我們現在一直一層一層的抽絲剝繭，現在衛福部告訴我們，有可能是因為他從去年在源頭放寬了熱損率，造成致癌物上升的情況，如果真的是這樣的話，那有可能從去年開始生產的油品就有問題。如果從去年開始生產的油品就有問題的話，依照食品相關法規，其實有兩個部分，第一，食品加工工廠都有義務要保留所有的成品直到有效期限結束，所以換言之，中聯或者是下面的泰山、福壽應該都要有這些存品，那你們有沒有把這些存品全部都扣押起來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒辦法跟你……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是只有4月到6月？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想檢察官對這個案件會向上溯源，當外界質疑這個部分在4月以前是不是就有，我相信檢察官都會一併了解、調查，這部分因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以到現在你們也沒有辦法掌握到底他查的是4月到6月還是更以前？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我沒辦法去過問這個案件，但是它的過程我們是有……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，我再請教一下衛福部，今天食藥署副署長有來吧？"],["林次長靜儀：有，在這邊。"],["洪委員孟楷：遲副署長嘛。"],["主席：對，請。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想請教一下，昨天署長已經開記者會，也講到熱損率的部分，我現在想問的是，熱損率從去年……我先確認一下相關法規，我跟地方政府也求證過，相關法規的規定是，食品工廠的成品應該要保留存樣直到有效期限，所以換言之，一般沙拉油的有效期限是2年左右，所以我們現在應該可以追溯到這間工廠會有這2年中間的製程成品，是不是？現在這一些成品有多少？"],["遲副署長蘭慧：跟委員報告，有關於留樣的部分，依法廠裡頭都必須要留樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：是！"],["遲副署長蘭慧：至於生產的相關部分，在我們的……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經有留樣嘛，所以我現在想要問的是，昨天你們才開記者會，我今天沒有任何黨派之分，純粹是為了國人，因為每一個人都可能吃到，如果你今天只有告訴我4月到6月……你今天的報告都還是只有4月到6月，但是你們昨天的記者會表示，可能去年年中中聯就已經放寬他的標準，那換言之，從去年年中生產的油都可能有問題。現在我們要問的是，從去年年中到現在到底生產了幾批？你只要告訴我，現在有沒有掌握、從去年到現在生產了幾批就好，有沒有？"],["林次長靜儀：我們回去統計，好不好？統計之後跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在還要統計！次長，我覺得這有點離譜，過了23天，你們昨天正式的記者會告訴國人，中聯從去年就有問題，結果到現在還不知道從去年到現在有問題的狀況、到底生產的油品有多少！"],["林次長靜儀：我們昨天的報告不是說中聯去年就有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以他不是只有2萬7,000公噸，他不是只有4月到6月的2萬7,000公噸，他可能從去年到現在都有！"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我要再強調一次，去年臺中市政府的檢驗是合格的，至少我們相信臺中市政府，如果不相信也可以，我們再來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，現在的問題分兩個部分，部長告訴我們中聯有相關的造假狀況，對不對？所以你們才把相關的數據都送檢調……"],["林次長靜儀：所以我們後來的……"],["洪委員孟楷：另外一個部分，如果你已經確認這個公司很惡劣，從去年就已經有造假狀況，並且他擅自放寬，誰給他權力讓他擅自放寬這樣的熱損率？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，第一個部分，關於是不是有造假、造假的情形，我們現在跟檢調一起在處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在都還沒有去……好，如果你目前都還不知道從去年到現在到底有幾批的話，我更合理的懷疑你根本沒有去保存或是扣押他的那些樣品，會不會那些樣品早就被銷毀了？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，你剛剛有提到，依照法律他們本來就要留樣，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，他們應該要留樣，但我現在要問，就是因為他們應該要留樣，所以我現在才要問你，你們去稽查到底有沒有掌握他現在留樣的那些樣品有幾批？"],["林次長靜儀：我們這一次……應該這樣子說，委員，這一次……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在還沒有辦法告訴我答案？還沒有辦法告訴國人答案？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，他們可以提供留樣給我們，但是我們這一次……像我剛剛說的，我們現在驗出來前面合格的19批都是從其他廠商的留樣，因為我們也對中聯不信任。"],["洪委員孟楷：你看，次長，這就是你完全輕忽，這也是為什麼我今天完全不想要再講你上個禮拜還提到其他那些雞排致癌物等等的，我不想再提那些事情，是因為我認為我們現在要就事論事，抽絲剝繭來找出問題的原因，如果你現在還focus在所謂的4月到6月，我覺得你是輕忽了這一次的食安問題……"],["林次長靜儀：1到3月我們也……"],["洪委員孟楷：你也輕忽了國人對於健康的重視……"],["林次長靜儀：對，所以我們往前驗了1到3月了。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果你現在了解、掌握現在這一批問題的話，就會發覺絕對不是今天已經23天過去了，還是你們報告講的4月到6月而已，他可能是從去年就已經開始，而現在如果食藥署23天過去都還沒有掌握他到底有多少批、多少的狀況，他可能不合格率更高，他可能從去年就已經開始生產這樣的油、可能用造假的方式，所以這樣的方式……"],["林次長靜儀：委員你這樣講，所以臺中市政府去年給我們的報告是錯誤的嗎？地方主管機關去年去驗，給我們合格報告耶。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我現在要跟你講的是，找出問題的原因，現在的問題在於我們要一起找出正確的原因。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：你不要在那邊每一次……我覺得我最難過的地方就是，每一次我們在這邊希望能夠找出事實的真相，而你們都沒有辦法提供，23天已經過去了，結果你現在……"],["林次長靜儀：剛剛也跟委員報告，調查小組最快明天可以說明完整的報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：23天已經過去了，我們司法及法制委員會、衛環委員會都已經排了那麼多的專案報告，結果你們都還沒有……"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我要尊重調查小組的獨立調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：連問一個最基本的，從去年到現在到底有幾批、從去年到現在到底生產了多少量、從去年到現在到底有多少量被國人吃下肚，這些都還沒有辦法告訴國人的話，那我真的沒有辦法了解你們這樣的態度到底是什麼！"],["林次長靜儀：我們可以把去年到現在所有的批次調出來給委員，去年到現在的批次很清楚。但是我要再強調，我們有專案，而且臺中市政府本來就有在去年做了相關的檢查。"],["洪委員孟楷：我再強調一次，去年能夠讓他自行放寬熱損率已經是一個很嚴重的疏失，而這樣的一個疏失……"],["林次長靜儀：那這樣的話，去年臺中市政府做的檢驗是怎麼做出來的？委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，這樣的一個疏失到現在23天了……"],["林次長靜儀：食安法第四十一條地方主管機關……"],["洪委員孟楷：23天了都還沒有辦法找到這個原因的話……"],["林次長靜儀：是他的主管機關……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有辦法找到到底有多少的留樣留存……"],["林次長靜儀：他們給我們的報告是合格的，當然我們可以請人來查……"],["主席：請尊重洪委員的發言，等他發言完之後再請次長回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長、次長，我語重心長講一下，今天已經23天了，如果用一樣的標準，我們已經知道中聯非常的可惡，你到現在都還沒有辦法去保存證據、都還沒有辦法去釐清從去年到現在的狀況……"],["林次長靜儀：我們在7月3號就跟檢調一起進去保全了證據。"],["洪委員孟楷：你到現在連我問最基本的問題都沒辦法回答，你這樣叫保存證據嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：現在這個廠就是我們跟檢調已經一起保存了證據。"],["洪委員孟楷：我就問你最簡單的問題，從去年到現在到底生產了幾批？有幾批、數量有多少？"],["林次長靜儀：這個我可以調給委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在連數字都沒辦法回答，我真的沒有辦法相信。"],["主席：好，接下來請次長提供從去年到今年6月所有批次的報告給司法及法制委員會，我們會提供給所有的委員參考。"],["林次長靜儀：可以，我們可以把批次都交給委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，請先回座。","上午會議繼續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接下來請邱慧洳委員、邱慧洳委員，邱慧洳委員不在。","蔡春綢委員、蔡春綢委員，蔡春綢委員不在。","有請劉書彬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-26","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","張雅琳","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","范雲","許宇甄","洪毓祥","賴士葆","洪孟楷","劉書彬","林沛祥","沈發惠","蔡其昌","蔡春綢","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2026-07-23"],"gazette_id":"1156502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、司法院、行政院消費者保護處、衛生福利部食品藥物管\n理署就「中聯致癌油事件之偵辦調查、消費者權益及食安監管」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請監察院秘書長、法務部部長、經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、銓敘部部長就「現行\n公職人員利益衝突迴避暨離職公務員旋轉門機制之執行成效與法制缺失」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1156502_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}