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謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:02:27.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:02:27.800000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:02:28.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:02:29.714286+08:00","text":"有請邱主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-29T12:02:29.714286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:02:37.250000+08:00","text":"請邱主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:02:37.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:02:37.750000+08:00","text":"翁委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:02:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:02:39.500000+08:00","text":"邱主委好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:02:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:03:03.750000+08:00","text":"我剛剛聽葉元之委員也在關心你們的出國報告，這就讓我想起，其實在這次預算審查裡面，我也發現滿多機關，像國安會、陸委會，還有一些部會、機關都說有國安之虞或是機密文件，所以都不方便揭露。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:03:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:03:33.545455+08:00","text":"我要再次強調，既然是用公務機關的預算出國，又不是有提機密預算來審查，所以所有的出國報告都應該要公開揭露，而不只是草率地拿一份報告給關心的委員看一看，這不符合我們立法委員監督行政機關應有的情況。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:03:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:03:39.750000+08:00","text":"所以我要提醒陸委會，之後你們所有的出國報告都應該要公開揭露。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:03:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:03:43.714286+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們這點做不到，因為我們陸委會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:03:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:03:44.857143+08:00","text":"你們做不到的話就開……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:03:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:03:47.666667+08:00","text":"我們陸委會涉及太多機敏的業務……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:03:48.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:03:59.714286+08:00","text":"主委，我要講，你們做不到，我也尊重，但是就開秘密會議，提機密預算，如果沒有開秘密會議，也沒有提機密預算，就是你們失職，你們不願意接受立法委員的監督，不要忘記……","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:04:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:04:05.700000+08:00","text":"我們很願意接受立法委員監督，我們也願意跟委員報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:04:05.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:04:06.700000+08:00","text":"那就開秘密會議啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:04:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:04:13.777778+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們每個出訪，完整版的資料都可以跟委員做說明，但是要在維護國家安全、機密的前提下。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:04:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:04:23.714286+08:00","text":"我希望能夠向內政委員會和所有委員提供你們的出國報告，你們用密件送也可以，但是不能以此來規避。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:04:24.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:04:26.857143+08:00","text":"這次我們沈副主委是很負責任的。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:04:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:04:28.846154+08:00","text":"接下來我要談我今天要正式問的問題。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:04:29.727273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:05:00.818182+08:00","text":"本席最近收到很多小資公教人員的陳情，他們反映說，陸委會近來大幅強化公教人員赴陸港澳的管理措施，要求公教人員不論因公、因私或者只是經由中國大陸的機場過境、轉機，都必須事前申請、事後通報，如果沒有依規定的話，可能還會面臨到行政懲處，或者是有其他不利處分。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:05:01.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:05:34.777778+08:00","text":"本席想講的是真的有不少小資族的公教人員，他們不過只是為了想要節省機票錢，也許透過在北京或是在上海過境機場轉機，但只是轉機，連入境都沒有入境，就要求人家要申報，像近期放暑假，不少的公教人員想帶著小朋友、家人去港澳玩，那裡有迪士尼，上海也有迪士尼，這種私人行程，而且他又不是高職等。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:05:35.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:06:00.625000+08:00","text":"現在兩岸條例裡面是有規定十職等以上的，或是警政職等是四階以上的人員才要受到管制；如果是十職等以及警監四階以下未涉及國家安全利益或機密的公務人員以及警察人員、教育人員等等，赴大陸地區是不會受到管制的。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:06:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:06:22.750000+08:00","text":"可是現在陸委會儼然就是一刀切，不管你的職等高低，就連二、三職等的工友們也要被管制，也不管這些公務人員是不是真的有處理到國家安全或是處理到一些機密公務，全部都納管，這樣的做法合理嗎？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:06:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:06:28.750000+08:00","text":"有符合臺灣自詡為法治國家、有符合法律保留原則、有符合比例原則嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:06:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:06:30.714286+08:00","text":"我想請主委回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:06:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:06:31.800000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:06:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:06:49.857143+08:00","text":"有關於您剛剛說的，你看我們今天遭留置盤查比例有50%是公務人員，顯示我們的公務人員不管是私人行程，還是旅遊行程，也容易遭到中共重點盤查，案例已經很多了。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:06:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:07:05.500000+08:00","text":"不過剛剛委員所說的十職等以下的公務人員依照現行規定，也必須要由他原服務機關同意才能夠到中國大陸，我們知道很多的……","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:07:05.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:07:07+08:00","text":"過去並沒有，是現在邱主委你當主委之後……","quality":0.294},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:07:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:07:11.583333+08:00","text":"過去是沒有落實請假程序。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:07:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:07:19.875000+08:00","text":"因為我們法律規定很清楚，十職等以下，他又沒有涉及到什麼國家安全的業務，也沒有機密業務。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:07:20.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:07:31.800000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，現在陸委會的措施已經是嚴重侵害到人民的隱私權和行動自由，我們認為陸委會管理措施必須要符合人權保障、符合比例原則……","quality":0.561},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:07:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:07:42.454545+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛好顛倒，我們是在保障公務人員，萬一他被滲透，我們需要他建立心防，對於我們絕大部分的公務人員赴陸，我們都尊重他們……","quality":0.536},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:07:43.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:00.750000+08:00","text":"邱主委，這也是今天我想要譴責陸委會的，我覺得你太小看臺灣公教人員的智慧，你認為大家對於到大陸、到港澳地區去旅遊，或是過境轉機，我們沒有危安意識嗎？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:00.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:01.750000+08:00","text":"我們的公務人員……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:01.545455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:03.727273+08:00","text":"當然每個人都會做風險評估。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:30.818182+08:00","text":"接下來我就要請教你，因為你一直口口聲聲說，現在在大陸失聯、遭留置盤查的人數很高，根據你們統計從113年1月1號到115年7月22號為止，目前大概有402人曾經有被留置盤查，或是遭限制人身自由，本席要請教的是，你們這些數字是怎麼來的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:35+08:00","text":"所以你們這些數字是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:35.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:35.857143+08:00","text":"跟我們報案的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:36.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:36.833333+08:00","text":"跟誰報案？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:37.833333+08:00","text":"是跟陸委會報案？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:38.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:46.777778+08:00","text":"當事人的家屬或是他的親友向警政機關、陸委會、海基會有跟我們報案的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:47.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:08:48.800000+08:00","text":"是不是可以請劉部長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:08:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:09.666667+08:00","text":"本席關心的是，剛剛那些數字是家屬向內政部警政署報案的，還是向海基會的緊急服務專線求助，又或者是向陸委會直接陳情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:11.666667+08:00","text":"三個機關都有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:13.800000+08:00","text":"所以是三個機關的數字整個加起來。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:14.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:19.750000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有去double check，有沒有重複的案子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:20.909091+08:00","text":"陸委會都有做這樣的確認。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:22.777778+08:00","text":"所以這些都沒有重複？沒有。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:26.666667+08:00","text":"所以有些是向內政部警政署報案，有些是向陸委會陳情？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:29.857143+08:00","text":"對，我們都有聯繫系統，所以都沒有問題，沒有重複。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:30.666667+08:00","text":"好，了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:31.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:32.400000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，也謝謝……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:33.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:38+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，數字只有更多，不會更少，這有黑數。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:38.444444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:40.833333+08:00","text":"這些402人到目前為止都沒有回來嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:41.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:43.750000+08:00","text":"翁委員，因為你關心，所以我特別跟你回答。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:09:49.666667+08:00","text":"實際數字絕對比公布的多，不會少，這是第一點，為什麼？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:09:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:10:21.800000+08:00","text":"因為很多的家屬基於安全，擔心人還在對岸，他不敢跟官方來陳情，所以他沒有報，以海基會的數字跟陸委會的數字我們核對，我們有個群組在核對、每天核對，以過去18個月，海基會收到225件當事人的家屬來陳請協助，所以我們每個數字都是真實的。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:10:21.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:10:22.800000+08:00","text":"好，了解，謝謝羅副董事長、謝謝秘書長。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:10:22.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:10:23.800000+08:00","text":"每個數字都是真實的，國台辦講的是錯的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:10:23.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:10:27.875000+08:00","text":"好，了解，我現在了解就是這402人是不是中間其實已經有些人回來了？對。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:10:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:10:29.800000+08:00","text":"有扣除掉那個數字了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:10:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:10:32.750000+08:00","text":"那就要看年限，我可以跟翁委員……","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:10:33.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:10:39.800000+08:00","text":"因為你現在113年到115年7月22號是402人，有沒有包括中間有些人已經回來了？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:10:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:11:15.750000+08:00","text":"我跟翁委員報告，海基會這邊過去18個月，從去年1月1號到今年6月30號為止，當事人家屬跟海基會陳請的有225件，其中有91件到現在為止還是失聯，完全找不到人占40%，有134件後來找到人了，找到人的這134件有些回到臺灣，其中有102件現在人被關在中國的相關看守所或監獄內，以上數字。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:11:16.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:11:16.875000+08:00","text":"謝謝秘書長的說明。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:11:17.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:11:33.818182+08:00","text":"我希望未來是不是可以把這些數據分類講得更清楚，否則大家會誤會，所以剛剛秘書長說其實有九十幾個人已經回來了，剩下這些沒有回來的人有些可能是真的被關在那邊，或是有些人根本不想回來。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:11:33.818182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:11:34.818182+08:00","text":"因為你們現在的數字……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:11:34.818182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:11:35.818182+08:00","text":"翁委員，對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:11:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:11:37.500000+08:00","text":"有91個人到現在還找不到，不是91個回來。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:11:37.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:11:38.500000+08:00","text":"對不起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:11:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:11:46.714286+08:00","text":"134個有找到人，其中還在中國被拘禁的有102個，所以回來的是22個。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:11:47.545455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:11:55.714286+08:00","text":"是不是在中國拘禁我們不知道，因為現在兩岸的共打機制基本上是失靈，你們根本也沒有清楚那邊的數字訊息。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:11:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:12:25.800000+08:00","text":"如果說今天是因為被留置盤查的人他涉及違反大陸那裡相關的法律規定，譬如說可能是涉及到詐欺、詐騙、刑事犯罪，或者是可能涉及到他們那裡的國安相關法律，可能因為這個原因而被留置、被拘禁，那麼以你們現在的數字來看，沒有分類大家搞不清楚，假設今天是真的因為詐欺犯被留在那邊……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:12:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:12:26.888889+08:00","text":"翁委員，特別再向您做說明……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:12:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:12:32.750000+08:00","text":"坦白說，我們國人還蠻開心的，至少這些詐欺犯不會回來臺灣又來詐欺我們臺胞。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:12:33.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:12:59.833333+08:00","text":"翁委員，你是學法律的，非常熟悉知道根據1999年4月兩岸兩會簽訂的共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議第十二條明文規定，兩岸的人員在對方的地區內如果有任何狀況，人身自由受到限制，雙方要立即通報，即使他是詐欺、販毒、走私，任何事件都要及時通報。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:00.857143+08:00","text":"是的，我非常清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:02.818182+08:00","text":"所以說今天問題出在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:16.833333+08:00","text":"對岸片面不按照兩會共同協議來執行，所以一切都要回到軌道，就是他們按照當初簽訂的協議來通報，我們所有的數字才會掌握得很清楚，對不對？","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:17.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:23.600000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我想兩岸的交流要互相，為什麼現在對岸不願意跟我們辦理交流？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:25.818182+08:00","text":"翁委員，不是互相的問題，是他們要執行協議的問題。","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:25.818182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:26.818182+08:00","text":"或者是你們去怪已讀不回，你們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:28.857143+08:00","text":"你不能這樣解讀，好像是我們的錯，不是我們的錯，是對岸錯，這個要講得非常清楚。","quality":0.424},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:33.777778+08:00","text":"我不是講我們錯，而是我認為我們的做法也要檢討……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:33.777778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:34.777778+08:00","text":"站在交流的第一線，這一點是他們要檢討，不是我們要檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:40.333333+08:00","text":"就像我講的，在交流協議的部分不僅是ECFA或是兩岸司法的協議都是一樣。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:40.333333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:41.333333+08:00","text":"當然是中國的錯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:44.833333+08:00","text":"所以你什麼都是中國的錯，他也認為都是我們臺灣的錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:44.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:45.833333+08:00","text":"他不執行協議難道是我們的錯嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:45.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:46.833333+08:00","text":"翁委員，他不執行協議是我們的錯嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:46.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:47.833333+08:00","text":"是中國的錯，不是我們的錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:57.700000+08:00","text":"現在最重要的問題是，假設你們認為這個數字的確有這麼多人是留在那裡被盤查的話，你們就應該清楚的把到底有哪些人要講出來。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:57.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:58.700000+08:00","text":"翁委員，你是中華民國的立法委員，在這邊就要完全按照中華民國的立場來講話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:58.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:13:59.700000+08:00","text":"他們的錯，你都說是我們的錯，是中國國台辦的錯，你都說是臺灣的錯，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:59.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:00.700000+08:00","text":"我是就事論事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:13:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:09.714286+08:00","text":"我就是做為立法委員，我非常關心每一個被留置在大陸的人的背後都是一個家庭，為什麼這些家庭在臺灣求助無門？","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:11.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:15.750000+08:00","text":"到底我們的海基會、我們的陸委會有去幫助到他們嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:15.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:16.750000+08:00","text":"翁委員，我是就事論事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:16.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:17.750000+08:00","text":"兩位冷靜一下！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:17.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:18.750000+08:00","text":"兩位冷靜一下，不要情緒化發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:16.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:17.714286+08:00","text":"有去幫助到他們嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:31.888889+08:00","text":"這是我在乎的，我關心的是假設真的有這麼多人被留置在大陸、被拘禁在大陸，那他們的家屬在向我們的陸委會、向我們海基會求助的時候，我們能提供什麼協助？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:31.888889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:32.888889+08:00","text":"我們每件案件都在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:39.400000+08:00","text":"看起來是沒有辦法，你們現在都只能夠透過在電視上面不斷的喊話，說都是大陸好可惡，他怎麼可以拒絕……","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:39.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:40.400000+08:00","text":"翁委員，事實上他不執行協議就是可惡啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:48+08:00","text":"可是對於我們的人完全不知道，而且我們甚至都懷疑你們數字的正確性，坦白說我高度懷疑……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:48.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:53.818182+08:00","text":"我剛才數字已經講得很清楚，沒有一件是錯的，國台辦說我們的數字錯，你也在這邊說我們的數字錯……","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:53.818182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:54.818182+08:00","text":"不是，我是高度懷疑，因為你們可以講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:56.777778+08:00","text":"我解釋得非常清楚，我們數字都是有根有據。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:14:58.777778+08:00","text":"你們可以公布到底是哪個、住在哪個區域、到底在哪個地方啊！","quality":0.36},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:14:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:15:01.750000+08:00","text":"我不清楚我們要怎麼解釋你才會知道！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:15:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:15:03.800000+08:00","text":"你相信他們，不相信我們！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:15:03.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:15:05.285714+08:00","text":"我相信你的數字，但是我不知道你的數字背後代表的意義！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:15:05.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:15:14.750000+08:00","text":"你相信他們說數字是錯的，我的每個數字都可以給你看，也可以給你看每個個案，我們在第一線執行的同仁非常辛苦！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:15:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:15:21.818182+08:00","text":"秘書長，你剛剛說可以提供給我看，就麻煩請你把相關的文件以密件的方式提供給我看……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:15:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:15:22.500000+08:00","text":"我可以當月跟你做報告。","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:15:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:15:43.818182+08:00","text":"讓我確實地了解到底有沒有這些人，因為我也高度懷疑為什麼我們臺灣的家屬這麼受委屈，我們的媒體也不敢公開報導，陸委會向海基會求助，可是你們卻沒有任何積極的作為，我們現在為了這些家屬打抱不平。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:15:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:15:52.727273+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這些報案的資料都有憑有據，我們都如實呈現，沒有你講的什麼造假，這不可能，我們的重點是要把這個數字降低。","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:15:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:00.666667+08:00","text":"你要讓大家相信的最好方式就是把數據公開，到底在臺北有多少位，然後在全國各縣市……","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:01.888889+08:00","text":"我們每個禮拜都公開啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:10.714286+08:00","text":"為了什麼樣的原因而被居留，我要講是現在我們臺灣到大陸去交流的有兩、三百萬人……","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:12.777778+08:00","text":"翁委員，能不能讓我講一句話？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:16.750000+08:00","text":"我非常感謝你關心這些失聯的臺灣人……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:18+08:00","text":"我當然關心。對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:18.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:38.777778+08:00","text":"第二個，我們的數據完全沒有造假，今天說造假的是國台辦在記者會說造假，他們說造假，我完全可以理解，因為他們就是這樣的人、這樣的單位，但是你作為中華民國立法院的委員，你說我們資料造假，而我提供了資料，你還一再講說數字有問題、造假，坦白講我很痛心！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:44.750000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我希望你能夠了解一件事情，我沒有質疑你們的數字造假……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:44.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:45.750000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:16:56.777778+08:00","text":"但是我現在質疑的是這些數字後面代表的是什麼樣的個案，如果你沒有清楚讓我們知道，我怎麼會知道你們的這些數據是不是百分之百正確！","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:16:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:17:14.666667+08:00","text":"翁委員，我可以現在告訴你一個個案，你如果想知道，我馬上可以告訴你一個個案，如果你想聽的話，但我必須去識別化，你就會知道在中國大陸，如果你沒有做好計畫、沒有做好心理準備，是充滿風險的，我如果告訴你一個個案，一個個案、一個個案在這邊講，國人就會知道這是非常危險的，絕對不是你在這邊所講的這樣。","quality":0.512},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:17:14.888889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:17:34.571429+08:00","text":"這個部分你們已經講很多次，我剛剛講說每一個臺灣人都會知道他要不要去大陸交流、要不要去旅遊，每個人都會有一些判斷，我希望你們能夠提出這402件數字後面代表的意義以及他到底是不是……","quality":0.738},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:17:34.571429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:17:35.571429+08:00","text":"我也誠摯地希望透過國會立委的關心，讓國人知道赴中尤其是宗教交流的危險性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:17:35.444444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:17:41.636364+08:00","text":"那你們就把到底是因為一貫道還是什麼，有哪些宗教的人士，然後幾個案件全部講出來啊！有啊！","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:17:41.636364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:17:46+08:00","text":"剛剛我都講了啊，我也可以一個一個個案向委員報告，比如今年的幾月幾號在廣西，有一個七十幾歲的老先生怎麼樣在旅遊途中被抓了。","quality":0.268},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:17:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:00.909091+08:00","text":"而且我希望能夠了解這些家庭、這些家屬實際上到底有沒有受到你們實質的幫助，而不只是口號上講講，然後你們到底做了些什麼、你們有經過什麼樣的溝通。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:00.909091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:01.954545+08:00","text":"委員，你都不聽我講，你都不聽我講！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:01.954545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:03+08:00","text":"你一直活在自己想像的世界或相信國台辦的說法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:05.600000+08:00","text":"我沒有不聽你們講，我中間已經……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:10.900000+08:00","text":"你要相信臺灣政府的數字，而不是相信國台辦記者會的說法。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:13+08:00","text":"基本上，你就是給我扣帽子，我必須說……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:13.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:15.777778+08:00","text":"我沒有……國台辦就是說我們數字造假啊，國台辦就這樣說啊！","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:20.181818+08:00","text":"我沒有認同國台辦說的是對的啊，今天我是中華民國的立法委員……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:20.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:21.818182+08:00","text":"是，所以我非常尊敬你、尊重你作為中華民國的立法委員。","quality":0.391},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:37.833333+08:00","text":"我當然有資格要去監督陸委會、要去監督海基會，你們每年拿了那麼多錢，我沒有看到對於這些你們所謂被滯留或被拘禁在大陸的人民和家屬，你們提供了什麼實質的幫助……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:37.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:38.833333+08:00","text":"翁委員，我們提供協助是我們同仁在第一線，如果你想知道，你也可以帶你的國會助理跟我們一起來參與，你不能這樣誣衊海基會的同仁說我們沒有做事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:55+08:00","text":"兩岸司法互助協議實質上等於停擺，任何的交流管道幾乎都已經被中斷，如果不是靠少數幾個像陳玉珍委員等等，他們當兩岸和平大使，你們基本上根本沒有做到什麼大家有感的事，好不好？","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:56.750000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅副董事長文嘉","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:57.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:18:58.678571+08:00","text":"我非常痛心！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-29T12:18:58.978571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:19:05.835714+08:00","text":"下一位請林德福委員發言質詢，林德福、林德福，林德福不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-29T12:19:06.135714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T12:19:09.850000+08:00","text":"下一位請徐欣瑩委員發言質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":953,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時2分）謝謝主席。有請邱主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：邱主委好。我剛剛聽葉元之委員也在關心你們的出國報告，這就讓我想起，其實在這次預算審查裡面，我也發現滿多機關，像國安會、陸委會，還有一些部會、機關都說有國安之虞或是機密文件，所以都不方便揭露。我要再次強調，既然是用公務機關的預算出國，又不是有提機密預算來審查，所以所有的出國報告都應該要公開揭露，而不只是草率地拿一份報告給關心的委員看一看，這不符合我們立法委員監督行政機關應有的情況。所以我要提醒陸委會，之後你們所有的出國報告都應該要公開揭露。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們這點做不到，因為我們陸委會……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們做不到的話就開……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們陸委會涉及太多機敏的業務……"],["翁委員曉玲：主委，我要講，你們做不到，我也尊重，但是就開秘密會議，提機密預算，如果沒有開秘密會議，也沒有提機密預算，就是你們失職，你們不願意接受立法委員的監督，不要忘記……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們很願意接受立法委員監督，我們也願意跟委員報告……"],["翁委員曉玲：那就開秘密會議啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們每個出訪，完整版的資料都可以跟委員做說明，但是要在維護國家安全、機密的前提下。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望能夠向內政委員會和所有委員提供你們的出國報告，你們用密件送也可以，但是不能以此來規避。"],["邱主任委員垂正：這次我們沈副主委是很負責任的。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要談我今天要正式問的問題。本席最近收到很多小資公教人員的陳情，他們反映說，陸委會近來大幅強化公教人員赴陸港澳的管理措施，要求公教人員不論因公、因私或者只是經由中國大陸的機場過境、轉機，都必須事前申請、事後通報，如果沒有依規定的話，可能還會面臨到行政懲處，或者是有其他不利處分。","本席想講的是真的有不少小資族的公教人員，他們不過只是為了想要節省機票錢，也許透過在北京或是在上海過境機場轉機，但只是轉機，連入境都沒有入境，就要求人家要申報，像近期放暑假，不少的公教人員想帶著小朋友、家人去港澳玩，那裡有迪士尼，上海也有迪士尼，這種私人行程，而且他又不是高職等。現在兩岸條例裡面是有規定十職等以上的，或是警政職等是四階以上的人員才要受到管制；如果是十職等以及警監四階以下未涉及國家安全利益或機密的公務人員以及警察人員、教育人員等等，赴大陸地區是不會受到管制的。可是現在陸委會儼然就是一刀切，不管你的職等高低，就連二、三職等的工友們也要被管制，也不管這些公務人員是不是真的有處理到國家安全或是處理到一些機密公務，全部都納管，這樣的做法合理嗎？有符合臺灣自詡為法治國家、有符合法律保留原則、有符合比例原則嗎？我想請主委回答。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，謝謝委員。有關於您剛剛說的，你看我們今天遭留置盤查比例有50%是公務人員，顯示我們的公務人員不管是私人行程，還是旅遊行程，也容易遭到中共重點盤查，案例已經很多了。不過剛剛委員所說的十職等以下的公務人員依照現行規定，也必須要由他原服務機關同意才能夠到中國大陸，我們知道很多的……"],["翁委員曉玲：過去並沒有，是現在邱主委你當主委之後……"],["邱主任委員垂正：過去是沒有落實請假程序。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為我們法律規定很清楚，十職等以下，他又沒有涉及到什麼國家安全的業務，也沒有機密業務。我跟你講，現在陸委會的措施已經是嚴重侵害到人民的隱私權和行動自由，我們認為陸委會管理措施必須要符合人權保障、符合比例原則……"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，剛好顛倒，我們是在保障公務人員，萬一他被滲透，我們需要他建立心防，對於我們絕大部分的公務人員赴陸，我們都尊重他們……"],["翁委員曉玲：邱主委，這也是今天我想要譴責陸委會的，我覺得你太小看臺灣公教人員的智慧，你認為大家對於到大陸、到港澳地區去旅遊，或是過境轉機，我們沒有危安意識嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的公務人員……"],["翁委員曉玲：當然每個人都會做風險評估。接下來我就要請教你，因為你一直口口聲聲說，現在在大陸失聯、遭留置盤查的人數很高，根據你們統計從113年1月1號到115年7月22號為止，目前大概有402人曾經有被留置盤查，或是遭限制人身自由，本席要請教的是，你們這些數字是怎麼來的？所以你們這些數字是……"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟我們報案的。"],["翁委員曉玲：跟誰報案？是跟陸委會報案？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當事人的家屬或是他的親友向警政機關、陸委會、海基會有跟我們報案的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是可以請劉部長？本席關心的是，剛剛那些數字是家屬向內政部警政署報案的，還是向海基會的緊急服務專線求助，又或者是向陸委會直接陳情？"],["劉部長世芳：三個機關都有。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以是三個機關的數字整個加起來。你們有沒有去double check，有沒有重複的案子？"],["劉部長世芳：陸委會都有做這樣的確認。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這些都沒有重複？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以有些是向內政部警政署報案，有些是向陸委會陳情？"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們都有聯繫系統，所以都沒有問題，沒有重複。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解。謝謝部長，也謝謝……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：跟委員報告，數字只有更多，不會更少，這有黑數。"],["翁委員曉玲：這些402人到目前為止都沒有回來嗎？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，因為你關心，所以我特別跟你回答。實際數字絕對比公布的多，不會少，這是第一點，為什麼？因為很多的家屬基於安全，擔心人還在對岸，他不敢跟官方來陳情，所以他沒有報，以海基會的數字跟陸委會的數字我們核對，我們有個群組在核對、每天核對，以過去18個月，海基會收到225件當事人的家屬來陳請協助，所以我們每個數字都是真實的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解，謝謝羅副董事長、謝謝秘書長。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：每個數字都是真實的，國台辦講的是錯的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解，我現在了解就是這402人是不是中間其實已經有些人回來了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：有扣除掉那個數字了嗎？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：那就要看年限，我可以跟翁委員……"],["翁委員曉玲：因為你現在113年到115年7月22號是402人，有沒有包括中間有些人已經回來了？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我跟翁委員報告，海基會這邊過去18個月，從去年1月1號到今年6月30號為止，當事人家屬跟海基會陳請的有225件，其中有91件到現在為止還是失聯，完全找不到人占40%，有134件後來找到人了，找到人的這134件有些回到臺灣，其中有102件現在人被關在中國的相關看守所或監獄內，以上數字。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝秘書長的說明。我希望未來是不是可以把這些數據分類講得更清楚，否則大家會誤會，所以剛剛秘書長說其實有九十幾個人已經回來了，剩下這些沒有回來的人有些可能是真的被關在那邊，或是有些人根本不想回來。因為你們現在的數字……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，對不起！有91個人到現在還找不到，不是91個回來。"],["翁委員曉玲：對不起。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：134個有找到人，其中還在中國被拘禁的有102個，所以回來的是22個。"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是在中國拘禁我們不知道，因為現在兩岸的共打機制基本上是失靈，你們根本也沒有清楚那邊的數字訊息。如果說今天是因為被留置盤查的人他涉及違反大陸那裡相關的法律規定，譬如說可能是涉及到詐欺、詐騙、刑事犯罪，或者是可能涉及到他們那裡的國安相關法律，可能因為這個原因而被留置、被拘禁，那麼以你們現在的數字來看，沒有分類大家搞不清楚，假設今天是真的因為詐欺犯被留在那邊……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，特別再向您做說明……"],["翁委員曉玲：坦白說，我們國人還蠻開心的，至少這些詐欺犯不會回來臺灣又來詐欺我們臺胞。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，你是學法律的，非常熟悉知道根據1999年4月兩岸兩會簽訂的共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議第十二條明文規定，兩岸的人員在對方的地區內如果有任何狀況，人身自由受到限制，雙方要立即通報，即使他是詐欺、販毒、走私，任何事件都要及時通報。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，我非常清楚。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：所以說今天問題出在哪裡？對岸片面不按照兩會共同協議來執行，所以一切都要回到軌道，就是他們按照當初簽訂的協議來通報，我們所有的數字才會掌握得很清楚，對不對？"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長，我想兩岸的交流要互相，為什麼現在對岸不願意跟我們辦理交流？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，不是互相的問題，是他們要執行協議的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：或者是你們去怪已讀不回，你們……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：你不能這樣解讀，好像是我們的錯，不是我們的錯，是對岸錯，這個要講得非常清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：我不是講我們錯，而是我認為我們的做法也要檢討……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：站在交流的第一線，這一點是他們要檢討，不是我們要檢討。"],["翁委員曉玲：就像我講的，在交流協議的部分不僅是ECFA或是兩岸司法的協議都是一樣。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：當然是中國的錯啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你什麼都是中國的錯，他也認為都是我們臺灣的錯。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：他不執行協議難道是我們的錯嗎？翁委員，他不執行協議是我們的錯嗎？是中國的錯，不是我們的錯。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在最重要的問題是，假設你們認為這個數字的確有這麼多人是留在那裡被盤查的話，你們就應該清楚的把到底有哪些人要講出來。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，你是中華民國的立法委員，在這邊就要完全按照中華民國的立場來講話。他們的錯，你都說是我們的錯，是中國國台辦的錯，你都說是臺灣的錯，對不對？我是就事論事。"],["翁委員曉玲：我就是做為立法委員，我非常關心每一個被留置在大陸的人的背後都是一個家庭，為什麼這些家庭在臺灣求助無門？到底我們的海基會、我們的陸委會有去幫助到他們嗎？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，我是就事論事。"],["主席：兩位冷靜一下！兩位冷靜一下，不要情緒化發言。"],["翁委員曉玲：有去幫助到他們嗎？這是我在乎的，我關心的是假設真的有這麼多人被留置在大陸、被拘禁在大陸，那他們的家屬在向我們的陸委會、向我們海基會求助的時候，我們能提供什麼協助？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我們每件案件都在……"],["翁委員曉玲：看起來是沒有辦法，你們現在都只能夠透過在電視上面不斷的喊話，說都是大陸好可惡，他怎麼可以拒絕……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，事實上他不執行協議就是可惡啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：可是對於我們的人完全不知道，而且我們甚至都懷疑你們數字的正確性，坦白說我高度懷疑……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我剛才數字已經講得很清楚，沒有一件是錯的，國台辦說我們的數字錯，你也在這邊說我們的數字錯……"],["翁委員曉玲：不是，我是高度懷疑，因為你們可以講……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我解釋得非常清楚，我們數字都是有根有據。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們可以公布到底是哪個、住在哪個區域、到底在哪個地方啊！"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我不清楚我們要怎麼解釋你才會知道！你相信他們，不相信我們！"],["翁委員曉玲：我相信你的數字，但是我不知道你的數字背後代表的意義！"],["羅副董事長文嘉：你相信他們說數字是錯的，我的每個數字都可以給你看，也可以給你看每個個案，我們在第一線執行的同仁非常辛苦！"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長，你剛剛說可以提供給我看，就麻煩請你把相關的文件以密件的方式提供給我看……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我可以當月跟你做報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：讓我確實地了解到底有沒有這些人，因為我也高度懷疑為什麼我們臺灣的家屬這麼受委屈，我們的媒體也不敢公開報導，陸委會向海基會求助，可是你們卻沒有任何積極的作為，我們現在為了這些家屬打抱不平。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，這些報案的資料都有憑有據，我們都如實呈現，沒有你講的什麼造假，這不可能，我們的重點是要把這個數字降低。"],["翁委員曉玲：你要讓大家相信的最好方式就是把數據公開，到底在臺北有多少位，然後在全國各縣市……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們每個禮拜都公開啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：為了什麼樣的原因而被居留，我要講是現在我們臺灣到大陸去交流的有兩、三百萬人……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，能不能讓我講一句話？我非常感謝你關心這些失聯的臺灣人……"],["翁委員曉玲：我當然關心。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：對。第二個，我們的數據完全沒有造假，今天說造假的是國台辦在記者會說造假，他們說造假，我完全可以理解，因為他們就是這樣的人、這樣的單位，但是你作為中華民國立法院的委員，你說我們資料造假，而我提供了資料，你還一再講說數字有問題、造假，坦白講我很痛心！"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長，我希望你能夠了解一件事情，我沒有質疑你們的數字造假……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：你剛剛說……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是我現在質疑的是這些數字後面代表的是什麼樣的個案，如果你沒有清楚讓我們知道，我怎麼會知道你們的這些數據是不是百分之百正確！"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，我可以現在告訴你一個個案，你如果想知道，我馬上可以告訴你一個個案，如果你想聽的話，但我必須去識別化，你就會知道在中國大陸，如果你沒有做好計畫、沒有做好心理準備，是充滿風險的，我如果告訴你一個個案，一個個案、一個個案在這邊講，國人就會知道這是非常危險的，絕對不是你在這邊所講的這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個部分你們已經講很多次，我剛剛講說每一個臺灣人都會知道他要不要去大陸交流、要不要去旅遊，每個人都會有一些判斷，我希望你們能夠提出這402件數字後面代表的意義以及他到底是不是……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我也誠摯地希望透過國會立委的關心，讓國人知道赴中尤其是宗教交流的危險性。"],["翁委員曉玲：那你們就把到底是因為一貫道還是什麼，有哪些宗教的人士，然後幾個案件全部講出來啊！"],["羅副董事長文嘉：有啊！剛剛我都講了啊，我也可以一個一個個案向委員報告，比如今年的幾月幾號在廣西，有一個七十幾歲的老先生怎麼樣在旅遊途中被抓了。"],["翁委員曉玲：而且我希望能夠了解這些家庭、這些家屬實際上到底有沒有受到你們實質的幫助，而不只是口號上講講，然後你們到底做了些什麼、你們有經過什麼樣的溝通。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：委員，你都不聽我講，你都不聽我講！你一直活在自己想像的世界或相信國台辦的說法……"],["翁委員曉玲：我沒有不聽你們講，我中間已經……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：你要相信臺灣政府的數字，而不是相信國台辦記者會的說法。"],["翁委員曉玲：基本上，你就是給我扣帽子，我必須說……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我沒有……國台辦就是說我們數字造假啊，國台辦就這樣說啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：我沒有認同國台辦說的是對的啊，今天我是中華民國的立法委員……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：是，所以我非常尊敬你、尊重你作為中華民國的立法委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：我當然有資格要去監督陸委會、要去監督海基會，你們每年拿了那麼多錢，我沒有看到對於這些你們所謂被滯留或被拘禁在大陸的人民和家屬，你們提供了什麼實質的幫助……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：翁委員，我們提供協助是我們同仁在第一線，如果你想知道，你也可以帶你的國會助理跟我們一起來參與，你不能這樣誣衊海基會的同仁說我們沒有做事。"],["翁委員曉玲：兩岸司法互助協議實質上等於停擺，任何的交流管道幾乎都已經被中斷，如果不是靠少數幾個像陳玉珍委員等等，他們當兩岸和平大使，你們基本上根本沒有做到什麼大家有感的事，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我非常痛心！"],["主席：下一位請林德福委員發言質詢，林德福、林德福，林德福不在。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員發言質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-15-20","speakers":["廖先翔","許忠信","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","王美惠","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","黃捷","李坤城","李柏毅","許宇甄","謝龍介","葉元之","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","張智倫","高金素梅","吳宗憲","林德福"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2026-07-29"],"gazette_id":"1156801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員、內政部部長、法務部、警政署、移民署、財團法人海峽交流基金\n會就「國人赴陸失聯情況及政府因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請內政部部長、警\n政署署長就「『萊爾校長』小編遭警突襲查水表事件，檢視警察執法標準與行政中立」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156801_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}