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議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀今日議程繼續審查本院民進黨黨團理據財政收支劃分法第16條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1728.037,"end":1750.973,"text":"我先介紹今天我們在場的委員包含林思敏召委陳玉珍委員郭國文委員鍾嘉斌委員吳秉瑞委員接著我介紹在場的與會官員財政部政務市長阮清華"},{"start":1752.918,"end":1777.029,"text":"法治處處長姚瑩國庫署副署長馬曉慧行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝基金預算處處長潘清紅衛生福利部社會保險司代理司長陳真慧勞動部政務次長李建宏勞動福祉退休司司長黃維琛"},{"start":1780.362,"end":1783.454,"text":"法務部調部辦事檢察官楊石宇"},{"start":1787.984,"end":1810.552,"text":"本次会议安排继续审查本院民进党党团领据财政收支划分法第16条之一未分配款运用暂行条例草案案现在请议事人员宣读今日审查本院民进党党团领据财政收支划分法第16条之一未分配款运用暂行条例草案之条例草案内容"},{"start":1812.253,"end":1836.513,"text":"第一條為照顧國民與老年退休生育時之基本經濟安全特制定本條例本條例為規定者適用其他法律之規定第二條本條例所稱主管機關在中央為財政部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府本條例所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關執章者由目的事業主管機關辦理"},{"start":1837.714,"end":1857.009,"text":"第三條 本條例所稱老年國民應符合下列四個條件一 曾參加國民年金保險於年滿65歲時依照國民年金法第30條規定請理老年年金及負責二 依照國民年金法第30條規定請理老年生基本保證年金者"},{"start":1857.789,"end":1874.47,"text":"本条例所称生育后国民于新生儿于我国办理出生或出设户籍登记之法定代理人本条例所称劳工应符合劳工退休金条例第七条之适用对象第四条本条例所称温废配款"},{"start":1875.211,"end":1890.91,"text":"细指中华民国一百三年十一月二十日三度通过修正财政收支划分法第十六条之一条文修正统筹分配税款之分配方式因其分配计算公式自无法分配之款项第五条"},{"start":1892.151,"end":1918.5,"text":"符合第三條第一項規定之老年國民政府應發給老年生活輔助金老年生活輔助金之金額依照國民年金保險法規定請你老年年金給付不足新台幣八千元者政府應每月補足至新台幣八千元為上限前項輔助金計算作業程序及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商各目的事業主管機關定之第六條"},{"start":1919.44,"end":1938.797,"text":"第六條符合第三條第二項規定之生育後國民政府應發給產後照顧津貼產後照顧津貼之發放應一次發給新台幣十萬元前項津貼作業程序及其他相關事項辦法由中央主管機關會上各目的事業主管機關定之第七條"},{"start":1940.365,"end":1964.951,"text":"符合第三條第二項規定之勞工依照勞工退休金條例第四條第三項及第四項規定自願提繳退休金後政府應發給自願提繳獎勵金自願提繳獎勵金之金額主管機關按月提繳前年度全國每年人每月經常薪薪資平均數百分之一之金額並以新台幣五百元為上限"},{"start":1965.771,"end":1974.225,"text":"前項獎勵金計算諸位程序及其他相關事項辦法由中央主管機關會商各目的事業主管機關定之第八條"},{"start":1975.714,"end":2003.947,"text":"中央主管機關未發放老年生活輔助金產後照護津貼及自願提交獎勵金得運用本條例第四條鎖定未分配款作為經費來源第九條請你老年生活輔助金產後照護津貼及自願提交獎勵金之權利不得作為抵押讓與抵銷或供單保之標的第十條老年生活輔助金產後照護津貼及自願提交獎勵金之發放期間"},{"start":2004.907,"end":2033.279,"text":"自中華民國一百十五年一月一日起發放至中華民國一百十五年十二月三十一日子前向至發放本條例第四條所稱未分配款用情為止第十一條本條例至公佈日施行宣讀完畢好那我再介紹一下現在在場又有到的委員林德福委員賴世寶委員還有黃珊珊委員"},{"start":2035.287,"end":2064.203,"text":"好主席刚才宣读条文的时候这边有发现第三条第一项第二款的第一行依照国民年金法第30条的规定那个漏了一个1因为上面是第一款是30条第二款是31条可能是散打上或者有缺漏那我们对照条文第二款应该是31条请做更正条文内容"},{"start":2066.495,"end":2078.28,"text":"所以第三條的第二款依照國民年金法第三十一條規定是不是好那我們現在進行協商"},{"start":2120.694,"end":2132.782,"text":"好來那我是不是先請我們這個提案的民進黨立法院黨團我們那個先做一個提案的一個大體的一個說明然後我們接下來就是一個大體的一個討論那要請鍾嘉斌委員來先做個提案的說明嗎"},{"start":2147.281,"end":2162.634,"text":"好 我想上次在巡達的時候我們已經對民進黨團版關於財政收支劃分法第16條之一未分配款運用暫行條例的草案進行過說明那在這裡有一個要再提醒"},{"start":2163.554,"end":2181.028,"text":"跟提出的就是为什么特别请我们议事人员把在11月21日通过的财政收支划分法的16条之一以及38条之二的条文内容没有"},{"start":2182.229,"end":2206.648,"text":"38条之二在后面拿出来请大家看那么主要是这样子因为在那一次的院会当中通过国民党党团版的16条之一跟38条之二这里面的他38条之二他是回溯条款他这里写着他说本法在88年1月13日修正之第八条那个是第一项那没有什么问题"},{"start":2207.389,"end":2235.672,"text":"第二項他寫到在114年11月21日修正之第16條之一的施行日期那我們看一下這是去年的11月21日也就是說當時在去年對財化法進行16條之一的修正的時候他有在公示上一個錯誤因此在這個條款的目的是將我們在上上週就是11月21日"},{"start":2238.408,"end":2250.261,"text":"就是我要說對不起我更正剛剛講的114年11月21日就是本法修正後的16條之一的施行日期要回溯到今年的3月21日"},{"start":2251.994,"end":2273.554,"text":"那我们看一下法条的生效日期透过38条之二往前生效从11月21日往前到3月21日生效它的目的是什么呢目的就要针对那个公司的涉算错误进行补救但是我们来看一下目前同样一个"},{"start":2274.916,"end":2302.257,"text":"11月21日修的16条之一的最后一项他这里说依12条第二项至第四项规定由县统筹分配给乡镇市之款项到后面他写到最后一句话应于快进年度开始前三个月通知该乡镇市那表示说纵使你将我们11月21日修正的16条之一回溯到"},{"start":2303.098,"end":2325.19,"text":"今年的3月21日生效但是最後這一項內容是一樣的那最後這一項內容一樣的話表示什麼表示在明年1月1號開始前的三個月就是今年的10月1號之前嘛那在10月1號之前我們已經足跡總署已經將這個"},{"start":2327.844,"end":2339.481,"text":"要分配給各地方的這些錢都已經告知了這裡面最後一項是解鄉鎮市倒數第二項是寫四個月前要通知各直轄市"},{"start":2341.114,"end":2358.068,"text":"那這些分配的金額都已經不可能在今年的10月1號之前或者9月1號之前分別通知各縣市或鄉鎮市所以呢縱使有38條之二的回溯適用也沒辦法改變"},{"start":2359.669,"end":2368.533,"text":"改變在今年的9月1號之前明年度各縣市所要分配的錢沒有辦法分配這345億的市值所以我再強調一次有點複雜我們"},{"start":2372.421,"end":2401.41,"text":"立法院針對今年3月21日通過的裁判法16條之一的公式涉算錯誤雖經今年11月21日的修正而且這個修正呢不只是往後生效還往前生效到今年的3月21表示3月21的公式涉算錯誤已經被11月21的新法所覆蓋了但是縱使把這個公式錯誤覆蓋但是依照16條之一的期限"},{"start":2402.31,"end":2428.309,"text":"我們對於明年各縣市 各鄉鎮市它所要分配的這些公司搜查出來的金額已經沒有辦法回顧到今年的10月1號之前或9月1號之前通知各該縣市了所以事實上目前我們法條所審的345億還是依然存在簡單講 你再怎麼把法條的生效往前回溯"},{"start":2429.298,"end":2447.752,"text":"你沒辦法改變明年已經有345億來不及在10月1號之前跟9月1號之前分別通知該縣市或各地方縣市政府所以這也是我們今天必須繼續的來進行這345億的分配的暫停條例的原因我在這裡先做一個說明"},{"start":2450.24,"end":2464.731,"text":"如果等一下委員討論就舉手那我就看一下好 那陳宇辰委員我針對這個中嘉賓市保委員我簡單的還有黃珊珊委員我可以我每個都有念 你第二個"},{"start":2466.471,"end":2487.029,"text":"我簡單的針對中間委員所提出來這個說法簡單的跟他打臉他說這個是11月21號所提出的條文但是我們在11月14號就已經把這個條文又更改了在前面就先更改我不知道是不是你11月14號沒有專心看修法的這個條文之所以在21號這個條文還是寫這樣子是因為我們在提出這個條文的時候舊的條文還是這樣子"},{"start":2493.514,"end":2519.689,"text":"11月14號是已經三讀通過但是還沒有還沒有那個公佈嘛所以還在修法的體力上必須要把舊條文按照舊條文先寫上去這個是第一點所以事實上已經已經已經把這那條就是38條前面那個16條的最後一項已經更改了你回去看一下我們那天修法的這個條文您看一下第二個就是會計年度上個月前那個已經修改了好那個已經修改第二個這個"},{"start":2522.014,"end":2538.26,"text":"根據這個統籌分配稅款的那個概念他是屬於地方款項就是要分配給地方的錢這個錢如果國庫署應該可以回答如果錢沒有分完他也不能拿去挪作他用這是事實上我曾經問過國庫署的署長所以這個錢是必須如果沒分配完也只能留在那裡那這樣的話"},{"start":2540.161,"end":2557.645,"text":"這個其實原來的公式並不是錯誤而是這個相關單位他想要我們釐清得更清楚一點他說沒有白紙黑字寫得更清楚他們不敢一直往下分配不然如果按照公式一直往下分配往下分配總是會分配完那既然要白紙黑字清楚所以我們把它你看我們這次的這個後來這個21號修正每一句每一條每一款裡頭我們都寫到不含這個這下市不含離島然後寫到離島就寫離島三縣市其實非常的清楚這理論上"},{"start":2567.867,"end":2578.113,"text":"立法不用寫得這麼繁瑣啦 那既然公務機關要假裝看不懂 我們只好一而再 再而三 寫得非常非常清楚所以今天的討論 事實上已經沒有依據了 就說這個我們11月21號通過以後還沒生效 沒錯 沒錯 我說沒有依據 沒有"},{"start":2585.137,"end":2601.549,"text":"私 私妻婦離啦 就是沒有依據但是我 我知道還沒有生效 我知道因為還沒公佈嘛 但是可以討論啦 只是說因為那天21號也好 14號也好我想鍾嘉斌委員也有在立法院院會裡頭也有參與表決 那個表決已經通過了16號之一怎麼分配給離島 這個"},{"start":2603.59,"end":2623.147,"text":"分配給這個離島這個部分 還給離島這個部分已經通過了 已經三讀通過那簡單的來講 我簡單的講一下這個暫行條例 我們對於這個不管是裡面所提出的國民年金啦 或者是作業值的10萬塊的津貼啦老人年金補到8000塊 或是這個勞保的百分之500塊這個 事實上我"},{"start":2625.669,"end":2640.578,"text":"我個人也都是相當支持的但是我覺得這麼好的福利政策用暫行條例來做只是在呼嚨百姓而已對不對 應該正式的提出一個條例我們今天修法如果可以做到這個地步我們讓它變成永久的條例不要只針對這個統籌分配稅款本來應該給離島這個345億這些想法我們覺得都非常支持我想我們這個可以到時候不然就是看民進黨要提出來一個永久的條例還是國民黨提出來民進黨歡迎共襄盛舉三個黨黨可以來共襄盛舉讓作業值今天10萬塊讓老人"},{"start":2655.746,"end":2672.293,"text":"年金這個什麼8000塊 補到8000塊這個國民年金這個500塊的這個這個補助 勞保的補助都可以實現 這一點我想我們很多在場的黨團應該都相當支持到時候 不然本席提出來的時候希望這個中加免維可以連署 謝謝好 那下一位請林德輔委員我想針對這個"},{"start":2681.992,"end":2711.086,"text":"民進黨今天所提的財政收支劃分第16條之一未分配款的運用暫行條例的草案我想站在我們國民黨團立場是如下暫行條例草案所規劃對婦女坐月子補助長輩國保年金月領加碼上班族勞退自提獎勵等對過去政府沒有注意到的"},{"start":2711.98,"end":2734.852,"text":"沒有特別照顧到的這些特定民眾給予加碼的補助以及獎勵我想站在國民黨團立場當然我們是贊成但本案在114年11月13日裁委會第八次委員會會議詢答時各部會的書面報告均未表明支持本草案的修法"},{"start":2735.672,"end":2759.479,"text":"而且當時財政部認為針對分配不完的統籌款345億本黨團與陳玉珍 陳雪珍委員都已經各自有相關提案的版本可處理而衛福部認為發放期間才一年而且經費用完就沒有了根本無法落實照顧的美意"},{"start":2760.459,"end":2779.802,"text":"所以說站在國民黨團立場我們支持本市修法的方向但是為了落實而且持續的照顧且能有穩定的裁員來挹注這個不應該用暫行條例這種方式來修法應該請行政院納入年度預算"},{"start":2780.603,"end":2802.103,"text":"中編列最快的方式就是送總預算的修正案或是用追加預算的方式讓民眾可以享受到政府持續的照顧不是只有暫行條例那個沒有意義加上本州本院在上週五11月21日院會已經三讀通過財化法第16條之一"},{"start":2806.587,"end":2833.937,"text":"第38條之二修正草案上代分配的統籌款345億元在修法後已經可以全數分配完畢給本島或離島今天暫行條例的草案的修法已經講實在話實質沒有必要那因為行政部門要求立法院三讀的法律"},{"start":2835.613,"end":2858.155,"text":"來依法行政已經沒有分配不完的統籌款可以補助以上本席建議本例修法可以討論但是就留在委員會另定期再處理即可這以上我想我們國民黨團表達得很清楚 謝謝接下來請賴世保委員"},{"start":2859.551,"end":2869.196,"text":"謝謝主席各位先進那麼首先啦這個暫行條例第五第六第七的精神我們都贊成這個照顧國保照顧這個作業值給十萬塊照顧勞退我們都贊成 統統贊成但是放錯地方啊這裡面來講因為345億是不存在的"},{"start":2884.904,"end":2898.858,"text":"我們去修法了雖然你說這個他提富裕還沒生效可是大家也知道嘛富裕來講也不會過啊你不生效他遲早會生效啊那這個法產生到一個競合的問題所以我要簡單來講第一點我要強調沒有345億這個東西沒有"},{"start":2904.625,"end":2920.189,"text":"這是假議題啊 345億 已經沒有了因為我們修法修完 不要忘了這個離島就拿 拿去了一兩百億啊這個大家都很清楚啊 根本沒有345億而且跟這個16條之一跟38條之二都清楚了這個沒有345億 這是不存在的但是第二點我要強調就是民進黨團提出這個戰刑條例的內容 主要內容"},{"start":2931.212,"end":2934.953,"text":"就是第五條第六條第七條這個精神我們絕對支持我們支持不要暫行的啦乾脆兩個方式處理第一個那就是這個16條之一裡面放進來那這個要問主計總署喔你們同意不同意這樣子那就是誰切了一塊很奇怪的一塊說我們財政收支方法是針對中央跟地方之間的關係結果你現在把它抽出來另外"},{"start":2960.001,"end":2980.729,"text":"另外照顧這三塊的一個東西那這個是一個非常奇怪的邏輯所以我要講的強調的重點是第二點要強調的就是不要暫行就永遠下去永遠下去永遠就是要國民年金就補足到八千塊最後一次給十萬"},{"start":2984.17,"end":2998.72,"text":"以及勞退再加五百塊就這樣子 永遠下去而不是暫行條例走得一字到底啦還要什麼暫行不暫行 你要是看到三百四十五億因為三百四十五億已經不存在"},{"start":2999.6,"end":3019.571,"text":"沒有345億這個東西在這裡現在要的話就是重新提修正案你要修正在這裡那就不要占行條例你就去改16條之一沒有什麼未分配的東西你就是把它寫上去看怎麼去修那這個我們可以支持但是最後一點我要強調的"},{"start":3020.939,"end":3029.365,"text":"如果真的讓你們互裔成功 我們修法不算真的有345億 那也是地方政府的錢啦那要用 怎麼用的話你怎麼就是月主帶袍 怎麼中央去替地方來決定他把它用 中央使用了 這個是中央的 國民年金中央的"},{"start":3044.977,"end":3067.753,"text":"這個要坐月子10萬塊以及這個勞退500塊這都中央的你等於是把地方要做的事情你又搶回來中央做把錢又搶回來這也是很奇怪的邏輯所以簡單來講就是我們希望這三個大的一個好的措施永久下去不要只有占星所以"},{"start":3069.516,"end":3074.93,"text":"345億是不存在的 要就是重啟修法看這放在哪裡 我們都贊成 好不好 謝謝"},{"start":3075.987,"end":3100.905,"text":"好 接下来请林思敏在位好 谢谢主席 各位委员先进我想我还是要重复我们赖斯保委员以及刚才林德福委员大家对这个暂行条例的一个意见我们对于第一条的立法目的为了要照顾我们的国民与老年退休生育时的基本经济安全而制定本条例我想这个立法目的我们都赞成"},{"start":3101.866,"end":3118.753,"text":"但是我們要看說這個經費的來源我們一直講說是因為要針對分配不完的統籌分配稅款這345億但是剛才寶哥也講得很清楚這345億根本不存在這是一個假議題"},{"start":3120.074,"end":3147.142,"text":"所以立法的一個立不法律他一定是要他的經費確實有在尤其我們之前就已經三讀通過把這345億的分配款要如何的全數分配完畢給本島和離島這個都已經在我們上週五的院會三讀通過了財化法16條之一及38條的一個修正都已經三讀通過了即便現在還沒有生效"},{"start":3148.282,"end":3163.45,"text":"但是負益還沒有行政院要提負益我們預見開天窗說亮話了負益也可能不會過所以這345億根本就不存在了而且我們還是要重申我們"},{"start":3165.131,"end":3189.962,"text":"用暫行條例的方式來定這個法律我們認為也不是很恰當就是說如果我們行政院真的要照顧我們這些不管是老人家 退休人士或者是我們作業者的這些補助要去照顧這些民眾應該是要立一個長期永久的法律而不是用暫行條例的方式來定"},{"start":3192.523,"end":3210.456,"text":"那最後我還是要重申就是我們這個錢這345億依法中央政府是不得挪作他用所以現在提這個暫行條例不管他的用途為何也是變相的挪用我想這個財政部在先前多次也已經表示了"},{"start":3210.996,"end":3229.651,"text":"所以這個到底可不可以挪用今天請財政部待會要表示財政部的一個意見所以綜合來講我想這部法律用暫行條例的方式來立法我想我們本黨團是不贊成的以上 謝謝黃珊珊委員先 接下來郭國文委員然後李燕秀委員"},{"start":3232.211,"end":3252.282,"text":"好謝謝主席我想今天這個案應該是說上禮拜通過的財化法的兩個法案是不是有漢格之處這是第一點第二個這是今天工商時報的報導他寫說我不知道是不是財政部表示中央投籌分配稅款無法分配管項屬於普通"},{"start":3254.284,"end":3270.617,"text":"統籌稅款原則上必須透過修法程序處理沒辦法用佔行條例來動用相關資金這是財政部說明那財政部也說明好才化法16之一條普通統籌稅款的分配他本身還是屬於普通統籌稅款也就是說他不是"},{"start":3276.089,"end":3301.252,"text":"可以用立法的方式去把它做相關分配更何況這個暫行條例只有這一年這一次這些錢以後也沒有了所以我們對於內容跟相關的細節主要還是法律上有衝突的部分第二就是請財政部說明你們對外的說法是不是如此我們立法院在討論一個你們也認為不能修的法律我們這樣不是有點浪費時間嗎"},{"start":3304.253,"end":3326.946,"text":"接下來請郭國文委員謝謝主席我想有這個財政收支發放法修正第16條之一的這個提案的產出最主要的原因還是在於說呢國民黨黨團跟民眾黨團第一次詳情推動修法的過程當初所造成的這個遺憾跟缺漏才會有本黨團這一次提案的內容的產生"},{"start":3328.327,"end":3348.912,"text":"就這345例當中我們所提出來的戰刑條例的方式其實反映了在相關的社會安全網的制度當中的推行過程當中有一些需要修正的一個條文當中把它列舉出來不論是在坐月子的津貼也好或者是包括勞動處境的一個字體的一個比例的一個不足也好"},{"start":3349.812,"end":3360.84,"text":"還有包括國民年金希望把它提高來強化社會安全體系的一個政策目標也好這基本上都有它制度上缺漏可以補強的地方"},{"start":3361.656,"end":3388.149,"text":"那既然剛剛那個四位國民黨團的這個委員都有提到他們希望不是用暫行的那希望用永久的那其實大家趁著這個機會來修法的時候也可以來做一個討論延伸性的討論基本上我是覺得本黨團基本上提出一個暫行條例之後發現到制度上的缺漏但也不是說只要暫行而不想要永久只是說在暫行的過程當中本來就有事辦事行的一個性質如果OK的話那當然這樣也可以永久"},{"start":3388.689,"end":3406.991,"text":"那如果说今天呢你否决了这个暂行的部分你希望永久的部分那待会儿各党团的部分也可以形成一个共同的一个附带决议来做今天修法的一个基本上一个共识让将来的部分字体的部分在制度上可以得到鼓励劳工修法字体的部分可以得到鼓励之外"},{"start":3407.632,"end":3421.856,"text":"那婦女的生產權益可以獲得一個保障那國民性的部分的社會安全體系可以加強那或許也是今天在這邊討論修法的一一之一當然在過程當中我看到許多的國民黨團委員一直強調說那個財政部的意見 處機處的意見 行政部門的意見那我覺得如果這麼尊重行政部門的意見的話那我們更應該思考整體的財政收支發生法是不是要重新來做調整"},{"start":3434.18,"end":3453.806,"text":"當所有這些部門當中提出了行政院版本的時候各位卻在程序委員會當中來進行封殺那這不是言行當中的一種矛盾嗎如果說我們期待了整個財政收支發文法的制度可以可長可久的話那或許可以請國民黨團用具體的誠意來面對這個行政院版本的財政收支發文法我先請這個李燕秀委員發言等一下再請鐘嘉斌委員"},{"start":3461.297,"end":3469.869,"text":"好 謝謝喔我聽了大家都討論很多但是我覺得回到整件事情的本質這345億到底要怎麼用我們可以 大家可以討論喔那但是"},{"start":3476.237,"end":3491.362,"text":"今年8月29号我们自己财政部的国库署当时的新闻稿就说剩下来一支345亿属于统筹税款的部分属于地方政府的财政中央不能一做他用"},{"start":3492.796,"end":3516.277,"text":"白紙黑字國庫署當時自己的新聞稿所以我覺得這個事情回到本質第一個是我覺得要釐清的第二個我們大家都知道社會福利易放難收我再一次表達無論是要做老年生活的輔助金包括對於產後津貼的照顧包括提撥這個勞退的獎勵金"},{"start":3518.178,"end":3535.813,"text":"這三件事情我全力支持我個人也都認為很重要但是是不是應該放在暫行條例包括衛福部自己都說這345億可能用一年一年半就用完了後面我錢從哪裡來要找錢這又增加另外一個問題"},{"start":3537.134,"end":3558.987,"text":"所以我們社會福利要做要把產婦照顧得更好要把老年人的生活照顧得更好把勞退補貼獎勵金我全力的支持我覺得我們應該想一個要用什麼樣的方式來編列絕對不是用戰刑條例而是未來這些政策要做"},{"start":3559.907,"end":3578.896,"text":"不是到處找錢到處挖錢看稅計剩餘有沒有錢可以再提拔100億我相信對於財主單位都是很痛苦的事情所以這件事情很重要這三件事情很重要要做我們就好好的做長長久久的做而不是用暫行條例的方式來去做處理以上是我的意見"},{"start":3579.956,"end":3608.858,"text":"如果大家有我觉得用这样编列方式我觉得是不合理的所以我建议在今天讨论之后可以的话我们就尽量留在委员会以上是我的看法谢谢我们再请总嘉宾委员好 谢谢在这里恭领我们在野党委员的高见首先还是非常感谢我们不分朝野各党派的委员对于本战行条例的精神也就是说对于要发放"},{"start":3609.338,"end":3632.391,"text":"老年生活扶助金以及产后照护津贴还有志愿提拨奖励金是给予高度的肯定我想刚刚的发言每位委员都同意这个战刑条例背后的精神就是要强化我们国民不管是产妇还是老年国民还是我们上班族都认为应该要积极的"},{"start":3633.471,"end":3648.872,"text":"對他們進行這樣的社會福利的照顧而且強調一次受照顧的國民是在全國都照顧而且都住在各縣市政府所以這筆錢你可以說是用在國民身上事實上也是用在人民地方政府的身上"},{"start":3649.565,"end":3676.586,"text":"好 再来第二点再来谈的就是底下有四点第一个有人提到暂行条例这个方法不可行提醒大家目前有一个叫做老年农民福利津贴是在1995年5月31日在李前总统登徽的时代由国民党握有多数的立法院有通过的到现在已经30年超过"},{"start":3677.567,"end":3701.435,"text":"還在繼續老年農民福利津貼暫行條例實施中目前受惠的農民有超過100萬每個月可以領8,110元還是用暫行條例在執行所以請各位委員對於暫行條例要有他的基本認識暫行條例已經暫行30年了這是我們對於老年農民的福利津貼的照顧"},{"start":3702.415,"end":3721.223,"text":"再來第二個呢剛剛有幾位委員不斷的提到轉述財政部的意見比如說部長在昨天部長的媒體報導是否符合部長的原意部長說希望呢要修法那修法是修什麼法修財化法對啊我們幾位在野的委員都說部長說得很好啊"},{"start":3721.943,"end":3736.309,"text":"那行政院院版的財政收支劃分法修得這麼好為什麼你們反對呢又提到說國庫署在今年8月29號的意見說這筆錢是中央統籌分配出去的部分中央政府不能動"},{"start":3738.339,"end":3761.173,"text":"那誰造成這個結果的是今年3月21號握有國會多數的國眾兩黨所聯手通過的如果你們口口聲聲這麼肯定財政財主行政機關的意見那麼兩黨就應該趕快支持行政院通過由財主這邊所主導完善的修正的全套的財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3761.893,"end":3782.387,"text":"怎麼你們反對的時候就是說財政部說有道理那財政部要你支持院版裁劃的時候你說你要把它退回這個是太可笑了吧標準的雙標第三個我還是要釐清一下幾位委員對於我們立法院在裁劃法一修二修再修已經修得頭昏腦脹自己都搞不清楚在修什麼了"},{"start":3783.248,"end":3798.995,"text":"今天據報載行政院將提出附議的是在11月14日本院院會三讀通過的裁劃法這個裁劃法沒有包含我們今天暫行條例所要附例的16條之一跟38條之一 沒有"},{"start":3802.133,"end":3815.876,"text":"所以目前在11月14日要即將在今天前提出附議的財化法它只是針對今年3月21號的財化法不包含這個345億未分配的部分的修正"},{"start":3816.584,"end":3845.89,"text":"大家想想看14號通過的裁劃法也沒有去處理21號3月21的公司分配錯誤我們今天在討論這個11月21日通過的16條之一跟38條之二是針對3月21日通過的公司分配錯誤去修正現在3月21日通過的一個亂七八糟修的裁劃法居然有兩個補救的方式在後面追趕"},{"start":3848.231,"end":3876.578,"text":"兩個補救的一個是11月14日他修了一部分公司收到還是沒修上週3月2號通過的是專門針對公司收到去修那我們不曉得3月21日通過的那個烏龍的裁劃法後面還要兩個修正案來修正那我們怎麼知道這兩個修正案一個被行政院提出賦予了未來會不會自己立法院發現錯了要收回來"},{"start":3877.662,"end":3902.96,"text":"那么现在我们在讨论的11月21日通过的16条之一跟38条之二也还没有开始走程序还没有开始走程序不晓得韩院长送出去了没有是不是心虚觉得这样修正也不适宜我刚刚念的那一个条文的后半段其实我就要说的仓促修好会闹这种笑话我刚刚念的11月21日通过的条文的16条之一的最后两项"},{"start":3903.956,"end":3931.376,"text":"倒數第一項是在處理三個月前要通知鄉鎮市倒數第二項是四個月前要通知縣市好啦你們匆匆處處你們要讓它回溯生效你們在倒數第二項說對於縣市的分配可以不受因為修法造成的情勢變更不受那四個月的限制那請問同樣的設計你再最後一項對於鄉鎮市的通知你沒有調整啊"},{"start":3934.264,"end":3948.715,"text":"真的是丟人現眼啊倉促要修改烏龍錯誤也只修改了什麼16條之一的倒數第二項通知縣市的部分四個月前你們有說應修法形式變更不受此限制那同樣的對於鄉鎮市層級的"},{"start":3951.372,"end":3975.187,"text":"這個要三個月以前通知你沒有加說應修法的形式變更可以不受這個限制所以說真的我們的立法品質在國眾兩黨的這個堅持之下很可笑不過我是覺得這不無損及我們各位委員對於本法精神的支持所以以下具體的建議主席我們把這個條文因為現在是還沒主條我們是大體討論我建議這裡面有大家質疑的"},{"start":3979.778,"end":4006.839,"text":"有所謂的所稱未分配款那幾個條文呢其實就保留就好了第四條本條例所稱未分配款以及第八條後段本條例第四條所稱未分配款以及第十條第二項所稱未分配款如果大家對於所稱未分配款是不是有爭議有不同意見那我建議呢就是這第四條第七條"},{"start":4008.289,"end":4025.137,"text":"第四條第八條跟第十條呢有這個紫色未分配款的部分予以保留其他的第一條第二條第三條第五條第六條第七條第九條這些條款呢講的都是各位委員支持的那三個事情第一個"},{"start":4026.246,"end":4052.49,"text":"老年生活募助金第二個產後照護津貼第三個自願提交獎勵金這幾條文都是剛剛委員發言致詞的是不是建議主席在我們處理主條的時候這幾個條文就通過有爭議的保留到院會的時候看看怎麼處理搞不好我們11月14日通過的11月21日通過的後來想一想立法院又覺得不妥了又收回來了那麼這個條例就可以處理了以上"},{"start":4055.487,"end":4075.032,"text":"我們請吳秉瑞委員發言那我們委員發言完之後我們請這一個行政官員來做個答覆我就是要講這個啊這邊大家在這邊揮到底有沒有這個裁員這個錢是不是已經被用掉了還是還可以再談所謂的暫行不是指這件事情是如果這384億這一條錢真的沒有分配的話那這一個條例是在談這384億這當然是一次性的啊"},{"start":4081.773,"end":4088.159,"text":"所以我覺得還是要請行政機關就是請財政部跟請主計總處把這兩個事情剛剛大家的這個爭議"},{"start":4092.708,"end":4108.101,"text":"把他先釐清啦就以行政機關的立場的看法是什麼不然我們大家都在這裡揮揮這揮來揮去各持己見也沒有意義啊是不是請財政部跟主計總署先跟大家說明一下當然我會先尊重我們委員那委員發言之後我們再請這一個財政部還有主計總署來做一個說明"},{"start":4114.426,"end":4138.242,"text":"那不过我们今天排审这一个民进党团所提出来这一个裁判法第16条之一当初是因为在野党的这一个修法有这个疏漏所以民进党党团还提出来这一个16条之一的未分配款的一个运用的暂行条例那现在呢虽然说上礼拜有删除通过但是呢在程序还没有确定"},{"start":4138.962,"end":4166.074,"text":"之前最終的公告程序還沒有確定之前今天在排也不算是假議題都還有討論的空間剛剛聽了所有委員的發言其實對於民進黨黨船所提出來的照顧老人 照顧婦女 照顧勞工也都有這個共識只是說看等一下要怎麼樣處理會比較妥當我們先請財政部等一下阮次長等一下請主席總署陳主席長"},{"start":4172.504,"end":4190.643,"text":"主席各位委員謝謝今天排審這個案子就相關的問題就討論那剛才各位的意見我都聽到了那中委員的意見我也清楚聽得很清楚那"},{"start":4192.25,"end":4218.902,"text":"他對於我想到目前為止我認為就是跨黨派的委員對照顧弱勢這一塊是有很高度的共識只是就裁員這一部分大家有不同的想法那剛才吳委員有一個建議就是說是不是因為到底那345億到底還存不存在到底怎麼用那這一部分是不是容許我們財政部跟主席總署再來把它釐清再把它釐清這是一點"},{"start":4220.029,"end":4245.402,"text":"那第二個就是我們16條之一的修正案這一次當然修正的就是針對公事錯誤的問題來做修正那這個其實是很局部的問題所以我是蠻贊同的就是說因為現在行政院版都已經提到大院來審議那那個版本我跟各位委員報告我從當國庫署長的時候開始研擬"},{"start":4248.343,"end":4265.277,"text":"到目前為止研擬了10年我花了10年的時間我們去研擬而且每一年我們都用每一年的數據去做驗證所以非常具有穩定性那這個版本其實是考慮到各方面的因素包括城鄉的"},{"start":4266.358,"end":4291.801,"text":"垂直分配的规模的问题还有水平分配的公平性的问题能够缩小城乡的差距这一部分下了很多的功夫所以这一次我们花了很多时间我们设算了一百多个版本所以我希望能够从整体面来解决有关财政收支划分的相关的问题"},{"start":4292.489,"end":4306.594,"text":"可能這樣才能夠全面解決相關的正義這是我最大的一個邀請我們那時候提出來要你們提版本你們為什麼都不提其實是"},{"start":4309.406,"end":4335.379,"text":"你們要先站得住腳啊當初我們一直在等看你們能夠拿出來然後大家把版本拿出來大家來探討 來溝通那時候他們就跟地方政府一直在開會來溝通嗎沒有啦有嗎 開了很多會先讓市長先講完等一下再來討論如果要討論願版就趕快送進來大家願婦委趕快通過就可以來討論了市長還要補送嗎好 那這個陳主席長"},{"start":4344.492,"end":4367.64,"text":"主席各位委員大家早這裡面談到的就是主要是要運用16條之一他會分配款345億元但現在345億元又已經有另外一個那個草案也通過就是說另外一個分配那所以這兩個就會有進合就會有進合所以這個部分就是這兩個進合要怎麼處理這可能也要來討論一下"},{"start":4368.94,"end":4394.126,"text":"那另外一個如果說這個財源是沒有著落的話要必須先來爭取財源的話那依照財政紀律法裡面的規定就是提出要先去籌措財源相關的財源這個部分那不然的話就是前面的必須要跟前面的相關的條例競合的部分要先解決這樣以上沒有針對我的問題回答兩位都一樣"},{"start":4395.086,"end":4419.592,"text":"我要你回答說現在有沒有這一條錢結果你們說要釐清主席總長說這個競合我沒有來爭取裁員我剛剛在談的兩位你有沒有了解我講的問題我們今天如果針對這個暫行條例今天在討論這個法案的話第一個要先釐清的是現在到底有沒有這條錢結果你說現在還要再釐清就代表有沒有這條錢你是不確定的你作為財主單位"},{"start":4423.803,"end":4443.557,"text":"有沒有這條線你都不確定我覺得那這樣今天這個會要怎麼開下去啊來 那個是不是你們再講清楚一下針對我們講的問題你回答一下這樣子啊因為這個行政部門也表達了意見然後這個我們立委也有不同的意見現在先休息10分鐘大家來討論一下是 但是我講一下"},{"start":4603.558,"end":4609.209,"text":"好嗎 現在就和各位拿次了 留這裡了"},{"start":5848.151,"end":5871.165,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會因為剛剛在休息的時候大家也做了充分的討論行政官員也做了回應因為剛剛大家在討論不論朝野我們對於民進黨所提出來第十六條之一的暫行條例的第五條 第六條"},{"start":5872.406,"end":5901.667,"text":"还有第七条我们对于老年国民还有对于妇女产后津贴的照顾还有对于劳工的照顾这三方面的照顾大家都是有共识认为说我们政府应该要特别来照顾这三个对象所以我们对于民进党团所提出来战刑条例的第五条 第六条"},{"start":5902.327,"end":5928.197,"text":"第七条的条文都予以支持还有认同但是大家也希望整个条文的讨论能够更精确能够涵盖的范围能够更大所以我们也希望说等到我们行政院院版的财务法进来我们财政委员会之后"},{"start":5929.037,"end":5949.37,"text":"我們再來一起跟民進黨黨團的戰情條例一起再來討論希望說我們所能照顧的對象層面能夠更廣所以我們剛剛討論的共識就在這邊本次會議做如下的決議"},{"start":5951.184,"end":5963.563,"text":"財政收支劃分法第16條之一未分配款運用暫行條例草案令則其繼續審查好那我們就散會好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}