{"error":false,"id":["170774"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170774,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170774","日期":"2026-07-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-15-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-30T10:13:08+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-30T10:28:56+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e0eb45d9b4eab070bf7a5e9cc94929df6914948a5b0a2b3dbcb989a50a4470220aec3227c6a1e6575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:13:08 - 10:28:56","會議時間":"2026-07-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會就「『海路－南島語族航海計畫』、『國際原住民族傳統競技文化交流族語節目（世界原住民族傳統運動會）』、『原住民族廣播電臺訊源傳輸及監控系統設備建置與相關基地台設置』等重大計畫執行進度、經費運用及成果認定檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、「原住民身分法」等11案：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民身分法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「原住民身分法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等17人擬具「原住民身分法刪除第十一條條文草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民身分法第七條條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員黃仁等19人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員黃仁等18人擬具「原住民身分法第七條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員盧縣一等17人擬具「原住民身分法第四條條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民身分法第七條條文修正草案」案。三、「原住民族基本法」等15案：(一)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二條之二條文草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃仁等26人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員黃仁等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員高金素梅等20人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(十三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案。(十四)審查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「原住民族基本法第二條條文修正草案」案。(十五)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai 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八丹島這個案子 大家各自有不同的看法 都很好"},{"start":16.52,"end":24.76,"text":"我想請問一下 這個案子是原民會生成的 還是原文會的發想"},{"start":24.76,"end":34.52,"text":"最早在111年是原文會有跟文化部申請這個預算 大概是1100萬"},{"start":34.52,"end":37.92,"text":"所以是 簡單講就是原文會的發期"},{"start":37.92,"end":41.120000000000005,"text":"後來在114年才又在跟會裡面針對那個"},{"start":41.120000000000005,"end":43.88,"text":"115年跟文化部"},{"start":43.88,"end":46.36,"text":"111是跟文化部"},{"start":46.36,"end":48.760000000000005,"text":"他們一開始啟動這個航海的這樣的"},{"start":48.760000000000005,"end":52.92,"text":"那所以這個111的時候沒有成行"},{"start":53.08,"end":57.28,"text":"沒有 當時他著重在這個造舟 造這個拼板舟"},{"start":57.28,"end":58.400000000000006,"text":"還有一些相關的"},{"start":58.400000000000006,"end":62.84,"text":"所以這個計畫應該是111年一直到現在是不是"},{"start":62.84,"end":65.12,"text":"115年完成這樣子"},{"start":65.12,"end":69,"text":"那也就很長的一個計畫了"},{"start":69,"end":73.72,"text":"那請問一下這個計畫 你們會內開了多少次會"},{"start":78.2,"end":79.24000000000001,"text":"最少10次"},{"start":79.24000000000001,"end":82.16,"text":"好 那也就是有完整的開會的紀錄"},{"start":82.2,"end":85.8,"text":"請問一下完整的開會紀錄可不可以提供給我"},{"start":85.8,"end":86.11999999999999,"text":"可以"},{"start":86.11999999999999,"end":89.11999999999999,"text":"因為我為什麼今天會有這樣子的一個專案報告"},{"start":89.11999999999999,"end":93.32,"text":"是因為我覺得這一次我們的行動"},{"start":93.32,"end":95.56,"text":"我覺得太過於草率"},{"start":95.56,"end":97.12,"text":"為什麼草率呢"},{"start":97.12,"end":104.03999999999999,"text":"因為你看你們八單島的執行計畫3850塊 50萬"},{"start":104.03999999999999,"end":107.08,"text":"然後專案管理行政費750萬"},{"start":107.08,"end":109.12,"text":"編列那麼高的管理會"},{"start":109.16000000000001,"end":113.80000000000001,"text":"為什麼這次的計畫仍然出現重大的缺失"},{"start":113.80000000000001,"end":116.56,"text":"然後你們報告也沒有講這個缺失是什麼"},{"start":116.56,"end":119.2,"text":"你們還只是說這是一個非常成功的"},{"start":119.2,"end":120.72,"text":"但事實上呢"},{"start":120.72,"end":124.68,"text":"你們航程的規劃執行費是1150萬"},{"start":124.68,"end":130.44,"text":"然後舟體內部結構遭海浪嚴重的破壞"},{"start":130.44,"end":134,"text":"船板的座位也被沖走了"},{"start":134,"end":137.12,"text":"然後船體持續的在進水"},{"start":137.16,"end":139.76,"text":"所以就沒有辦法的滑行了"},{"start":139.76,"end":142.76,"text":"請問一下你們挑戰的是黑潮"},{"start":143.68,"end":145.48000000000002,"text":"黑潮不是那麼容易的"},{"start":145.48000000000002,"end":147.48000000000002,"text":"你去Google一下黑潮"},{"start":147.48000000000002,"end":149.28,"text":"AI怎麼告訴你"},{"start":149.64000000000001,"end":152.28,"text":"它的潮流是非常險峻的"},{"start":152.28,"end":155.12,"text":"哪是你們這樣子可以草草耍帥"},{"start":155.12,"end":158.72,"text":"當然會碰到無法繼續滑行"},{"start":158.72,"end":160.92000000000002,"text":"然後花了1000多萬的規劃"},{"start":160.92000000000002,"end":165.44,"text":"你們卻連最安全還有應變都沒有做好"},{"start":165.44,"end":167,"text":"請問這是成功嗎"},{"start":167.04,"end":170.8,"text":"在今天所有的檢討報告裡面你們也沒有寫"},{"start":170.8,"end":172.96,"text":"未來你們如果還要再做的話"},{"start":172.96,"end":176.12,"text":"你們還會面對同樣的問題"},{"start":176.12,"end":178.6,"text":"然後你們原文會給我報告是說"},{"start":178.6,"end":180.92,"text":"你們航程未完成是因為"},{"start":180.92,"end":184.88,"text":"護航的船叫做青美號"},{"start":184.88,"end":187.12,"text":"它的發電機故障"},{"start":187.12,"end":189.32,"text":"請問一下到底是發電機故障"},{"start":189.32,"end":191.32,"text":"還是我們這個船體進水"},{"start":192.84,"end":195.32,"text":"各位報告這個航行當然是"},{"start":195.35999999999999,"end":198.23999999999998,"text":"我們做了非常充分的安全評估跟規劃"},{"start":198.23999999999998,"end":201.56,"text":"當然不知道挑戰黑潮是一件非常嚴重的事情"},{"start":201.56,"end":203.68,"text":"達威族的前輩"},{"start":203.68,"end":205.68,"text":"祖先應該都清楚知道"},{"start":205.68,"end":207.84,"text":"可能跟我們計畫上當然有一點落差"},{"start":207.84,"end":208.4,"text":"這個也是"},{"start":208.4,"end":210.64,"text":"請問一下這樣子的一個變化"},{"start":210.64,"end":213.84,"text":"有沒有在你們的規劃跟討論範圍之內"},{"start":213.84,"end":216.88,"text":"我再講一次你們挑戰的是黑潮"},{"start":217.56,"end":220.4,"text":"這個不是普通的一個洋流"},{"start":220.4,"end":222.32,"text":"我們在籌辦的過程"},{"start":222.32,"end":225.07999999999998,"text":"當然在應變的機制是有充分的討論"},{"start":225.32000000000002,"end":229.84,"text":"請問一下到底是你們護航的船發電機故障"},{"start":229.84,"end":231.56,"text":"還是船體進水"},{"start":231.56,"end":234.76000000000002,"text":"還是你們發現黑潮不是那麼好容易挑戰的"},{"start":235.96,"end":237.56,"text":"因為他們發出去以後"},{"start":237.56,"end":240.12,"text":"發現到那個湧浪比你想的還要大"},{"start":240.12,"end":243.08,"text":"發現到是就滑出去才發現嗎"},{"start":243.08,"end":246.24,"text":"難道你們在規劃的時候就不會想到嗎"},{"start":246.24,"end":247.4,"text":"是覺得是可以的"},{"start":247.4,"end":248.4,"text":"副主委"},{"start":248.4,"end":249.76000000000002,"text":"我今天"},{"start":249.76000000000002,"end":254.08,"text":"我今天不想看到我們在這邊是針鋒相對"},{"start":254.08,"end":258.8,"text":"我們要的是花了三千八百五十萬的錢"},{"start":258.8,"end":260.72,"text":"有沒有完整的規劃"},{"start":260.72,"end":262.76,"text":"而今天要你們做專案報告"},{"start":262.76,"end":265.40000000000003,"text":"就是希望你們能夠記取教訓"},{"start":265.40000000000003,"end":268.44,"text":"下次不要再有這樣的事情發生"},{"start":268.44,"end":271.36,"text":"當然做文化的交流傳承文化"},{"start":271.36,"end":275,"text":"平反中來自達悟族人不是只有一艘"},{"start":275.76,"end":277.52000000000004,"text":"好多艘"},{"start":277.52000000000004,"end":277.96000000000004,"text":"對不對"},{"start":277.96000000000004,"end":282.36,"text":"而且你們跟八單的交流也不是三百年來首次"},{"start":282.36,"end":283.92,"text":"有幾次了"},{"start":283.92,"end":289,"text":"所以你們竟然要做這麼大的一個政治上的宣示"},{"start":289,"end":291.64000000000004,"text":"你們總是要有一些規劃"},{"start":291.64000000000004,"end":295.04,"text":"如果你們真是有一些政治上的宣示"},{"start":295.04,"end":296.68,"text":"或政治上的意圖"},{"start":296.68,"end":299.12,"text":"就是剛剛幾個委員講的"},{"start":299.12,"end":301.36,"text":"你們要有你們的功能啊"},{"start":301.36,"end":302.36,"text":"未來在哪裡"},{"start":302.36,"end":304.96000000000004,"text":"今天你們的報告完全沒有"},{"start":304.96000000000004,"end":307.8,"text":"然後我覺得這個真相也沒有看到"},{"start":307.8,"end":308.96000000000004,"text":"就是你剛剛跟我講的"},{"start":308.96000000000004,"end":309.56,"text":"滑出去"},{"start":309.56,"end":310.6,"text":"我們就發現"},{"start":310.6,"end":310.88,"text":"哇"},{"start":310.88,"end":312.36,"text":"這個洋流非常的大"},{"start":312.36,"end":313.76,"text":"所以團體進水了"},{"start":313.76,"end":315.88,"text":"所以造成說那個他們安全第一"},{"start":315.88,"end":316.92,"text":"所以先把人先"},{"start":316.92,"end":318.96,"text":"我當然了解安全第一"},{"start":318.96,"end":320.59999999999997,"text":"但是你們在滑出去之前"},{"start":320.59999999999997,"end":323.76,"text":"都不知道黑潮的洋流是這麼嚴重的嗎"},{"start":323.76,"end":325.03999999999996,"text":"是有評估"},{"start":325.03999999999996,"end":325.76,"text":"那評估了"},{"start":325.76,"end":329.03999999999996,"text":"為什麼你們的護航船還會發電機沒電"},{"start":330.71999999999997,"end":331.03999999999996,"text":"好啦"},{"start":331.03999999999996,"end":333.32,"text":"副主委今天不要在這邊了"},{"start":333.32,"end":335.08,"text":"我現在要凸顯的就是"},{"start":335.08,"end":339.28,"text":"你們根本沒有好好的規劃"},{"start":339.28,"end":342.32,"text":"你們只是想要完成這件事情"},{"start":342.32,"end":343.4,"text":"你知道這件事情"},{"start":343.4,"end":345.12,"text":"如你剛剛所說的"},{"start":345.12,"end":346.91999999999996,"text":"達悟的族人是多"},{"start":346.91999999999996,"end":348.12,"text":"他的安危"},{"start":348.12,"end":350.32,"text":"而且裡面的滑船的人"},{"start":350.32,"end":352.47999999999996,"text":"不全是達悟族人"},{"start":352.47999999999996,"end":354.35999999999996,"text":"他還有漢族的人"},{"start":354.35999999999996,"end":355.79999999999995,"text":"還有其他的人"},{"start":355.79999999999995,"end":357.64,"text":"如果你們真的是所有的"},{"start":357.64,"end":359.2,"text":"都要我們男女達悟族人"},{"start":359.2,"end":362.2,"text":"應該規劃好訓練好"},{"start":362.2,"end":363.84,"text":"所有都是達悟族人"},{"start":363.84,"end":365.35999999999996,"text":"一起參與這件事情"},{"start":365.35999999999996,"end":367,"text":"不是更有意義嗎"},{"start":367,"end":367.32,"text":"好嗎"},{"start":367.32,"end":367.79999999999995,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":371.23999999999995,"end":372.64,"text":"我再講第二個"},{"start":372.64,"end":376.47999999999996,"text":"請你們再把你們的具體的檢討報告"},{"start":376.47999999999996,"end":377.36,"text":"還有未來要做"},{"start":377.36,"end":379,"text":"剛剛有非常多的委員"},{"start":379,"end":380.08,"text":"洪祿委員也好"},{"start":380.08,"end":381.59999999999997,"text":"廖先祥委員也好"},{"start":381.59999999999997,"end":384.76,"text":"都想到你們未來還要做些什麼事情"},{"start":384.76,"end":386.2,"text":"我希望人民會"},{"start":386.2,"end":388.64,"text":"原文會你們做事情的時候"},{"start":388.64,"end":390.59999999999997,"text":"不要雷聲大"},{"start":390.59999999999997,"end":392.24,"text":"然後雨點小"},{"start":392.24,"end":394.52,"text":"然後後續的也沒有想好"},{"start":394.52,"end":396.88,"text":"每一次想做什麼就做什麼"},{"start":396.88,"end":400.91999999999996,"text":"我覺得人民會的預算本來就很少了"},{"start":400.96000000000004,"end":404.48,"text":"我覺得人民會在操作自己族人的事情的時候"},{"start":404.48,"end":407.08000000000004,"text":"請你們專業一點好不好"},{"start":407.08000000000004,"end":408.88,"text":"另外我要跟您談的是"},{"start":408.88,"end":410.68,"text":"原住民族廣播電台"},{"start":410.68,"end":412.36,"text":"基地台的設置"},{"start":412.36,"end":415.12,"text":"剛剛洪祿委員也說了"},{"start":415.12,"end":417.96000000000004,"text":"宣傳族人的事務"},{"start":417.96000000000004,"end":420.28000000000003,"text":"你們應該要非常的上手"},{"start":420.28000000000003,"end":424.16,"text":"可是我們看到你們辦活動的時候是非常的積極"},{"start":424.16,"end":426.64,"text":"可是你們最基本的業務管理"},{"start":426.64,"end":428.92,"text":"讓人非常的失望"},{"start":428.96000000000004,"end":433.2,"text":"207年絕標的原廣台基地台設置案"},{"start":433.2,"end":436.24,"text":"預計要10個月之後就完工了"},{"start":436.24,"end":439.24,"text":"但是到現在歷經10年"},{"start":439.24,"end":441.20000000000005,"text":"你們完成了三戰"},{"start":441.20000000000005,"end":444,"text":"整體的進度只有15%"},{"start":444,"end":447.12,"text":"請問這10年到底發生了什麼事情"},{"start":449.32,"end":451.32,"text":"這10年發生了什麼事"},{"start":453.20000000000005,"end":455.40000000000003,"text":"我想這個在履約的過程"},{"start":455.44,"end":459.91999999999996,"text":"我們這個廠商他已經沒有要繼續履約了"},{"start":459.91999999999996,"end":463.52,"text":"那當然在這個過程裡面有很多的爭議產生"},{"start":463.52,"end":465.56,"text":"那我們也提報了採購法的101"},{"start":465.56,"end":468.12,"text":"針對這個廠商的部分來做一些處理"},{"start":468.12,"end":472.28,"text":"後續我們事實上也可能會再重新採購"},{"start":472.28,"end":473.91999999999996,"text":"另外就是針對那些"},{"start":473.91999999999996,"end":475,"text":"在這個過程裡面"},{"start":475,"end":479.28,"text":"有一些相關的損失會要求這個廠商來承擔"},{"start":479.28,"end":483.79999999999995,"text":"傅主任你今天你剛剛說的這些部分"},{"start":484.40000000000003,"end":487.08,"text":"10年我們就只聽到這樣的答案嗎"},{"start":487.08,"end":488.6,"text":"原民會你們是"},{"start":488.6,"end":492.36,"text":"請問一下誰分管原文會的事務"},{"start":492.36,"end":494.2,"text":"哪一位副主委"},{"start":495.52000000000004,"end":499.04,"text":"這個是原民會是不是要監督"},{"start":499.04,"end":499.56,"text":"是"},{"start":499.56,"end":502.16,"text":"還是原民會自己的責任"},{"start":503.40000000000003,"end":505.64,"text":"這個工作事實上在"},{"start":505.64,"end":507.40000000000003,"text":"你們有副主委三位"},{"start":507.40000000000003,"end":509.2,"text":"我們將決了以後給原文會"},{"start":509.2,"end":511.2,"text":"對你們有三位副主委"},{"start":511.2,"end":513.48,"text":"誰在負責這一個部分"},{"start":514.04,"end":516,"text":"原則上是陳副"},{"start":517.2,"end":518.16,"text":"陳副主委"},{"start":518.16,"end":519.4,"text":"陳副主委"},{"start":519.4,"end":521.5600000000001,"text":"那請問他知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":522.32,"end":526,"text":"那請問陳副主委之前是誰在分管"},{"start":526,"end":529,"text":"我剛剛說了107年絕標"},{"start":529,"end":531.28,"text":"你剛剛說是因為廠商的問題"},{"start":531.28,"end":535.16,"text":"但是這十年來卻沒有人對這個廠商"},{"start":535.16,"end":538.04,"text":"或者是這件事情關心過"},{"start":538.04,"end":541.2,"text":"又不是我在今年的預算裡面"},{"start":541.2,"end":543.08,"text":"凍結你們的預算"},{"start":543.08,"end":545.64,"text":"然後請要求你們要說明"},{"start":545.64,"end":547.64,"text":"是不是還在拖十年"},{"start":549,"end":550.0400000000001,"text":"請問一下副主委"},{"start":550.0400000000001,"end":550.44,"text":"不會"},{"start":550.44,"end":552.5200000000001,"text":"那之前是那個中興華"},{"start":552.5200000000001,"end":554.5200000000001,"text":"他業管這個"},{"start":554.5200000000001,"end":556.040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t":720.12,"end":724.12,"text":"累積短錯那麼多錢"},{"start":724.12,"end":724.9200000000001,"text":"應該不是啦"},{"start":724.9200000000001,"end":725.4000000000001,"text":"應該不是"},{"start":725.4000000000001,"end":726.84,"text":"主要還是進法補償的經費"},{"start":726.84,"end":727.5600000000001,"text":"應該不是"},{"start":727.5600000000001,"end":728.2,"text":"好第二"},{"start":728.2,"end":731.32,"text":"有人認為這個基金的業務不多"},{"start":731.32,"end":735.1600000000001,"text":"所以呢不需要每年撥補23億"},{"start":735.1600000000001,"end":736.9200000000001,"text":"你同意嗎"},{"start":736.9200000000001,"end":741.72,"text":"我覺得依法應該要到多少的經費"},{"start":741.72,"end":742.36,"text":"很好"},{"start":742.36,"end":745.24,"text":"尤其115年的時候"},{"start":745.24,"end":747.4,"text":"我做過主決議"},{"start":747.4,"end":749.4,"text":"希望我們的行政院"},{"start":749.4,"end":752.44,"text":"每年能夠23億撥補進來"},{"start":752.44,"end":753.1600000000001,"text":"對不對"},{"start":753.1600000000001,"end":754.44,"text":"好第三個"},{"start":754.44,"end":757,"text":"也有人認為未來兩年"},{"start":757,"end":760.36,"text":"原本要還給族人的63億"},{"start":760.36,"end":762.6800000000001,"text":"他只要還10億就可以了"},{"start":762.6800000000001,"end":764.44,"text":"原民會你同意這件事情嗎"},{"start":765.5600000000001,"end":769.08,"text":"我們是持續跟族總這邊來協調"},{"start":769.08,"end":771.24,"text":"說因為當時也有立法院的決議"},{"start":771.24,"end":772.44,"text":"我們希望能夠儘快的"},{"start":772.44,"end":773.48,"text":"很好"},{"start":773.48,"end":775.48,"text":"我剛剛以上講的這三個"},{"start":775.48,"end":778.6800000000001,"text":"我的問題全部都是行政院的見解"},{"start":778.6800000000001,"end":781.32,"text":"行政院的秘書長就在這個地方"},{"start":781.32,"end":783.96,"text":"回答我這樣的問題"},{"start":783.96,"end":786.12,"text":"當然主計總處說"},{"start":786.12,"end":789.88,"text":"每年明年還給族人10億就好了"},{"start":789.88,"end":790.92,"text":"當然你也說了"},{"start":790.92,"end":792.92,"text":"這不符合立法院的主決議"},{"start":792.92,"end":795.24,"text":"這個主決議也是我做的"},{"start":795.24,"end":798.76,"text":"所以我可以在這邊毫不客氣的說"},{"start":798.92,"end":803,"text":"行政院你們就是要霸凌族人"},{"start":803,"end":806.28,"text":"你們就是在霸凌原民會"},{"start":806.28,"end":808.92,"text":"原民會給你們那麼多的公文"},{"start":808.92,"end":810.52,"text":"再次的請求你們"},{"start":810.52,"end":814.92,"text":"請你們撥補完整中發基金的預算"},{"start":814.92,"end":819.56,"text":"要不然中發基金真的不能夠做事了"},{"start":819.56,"end":822.12,"text":"但是他只給10億"},{"start":822.12,"end":826.12,"text":"我希望今天這是我在這裡最後一次的質詢"},{"start":826.12,"end":827.72,"text":"行政院長你有聽到"},{"start":827.72,"end":830.12,"text":"我今天在這裡質詢的話"},{"start":830.12,"end":833.32,"text":"還有族人我們應該憤怒"},{"start":833.32,"end":835.24,"text":"立法院的主決議"},{"start":835.24,"end":838.76,"text":"而且這個基金剛剛副主委講過了"},{"start":838.76,"end":843.96,"text":"是我們族人立法通過的禁法補償"},{"start":843.96,"end":845.1600000000001,"text":"本來是3萬塊"},{"start":845.1600000000001,"end":847.96,"text":"現在多了3萬變6萬"},{"start":847.96,"end":851.64,"text":"然後行政院不想要旅行"},{"start":851.64,"end":856.28,"text":"所以就在中和發展基金裡面給我們延大嗎"},{"start":856.36,"end":859.0799999999999,"text":"然後修理我們的原民會嗎"},{"start":859.0799999999999,"end":862.4399999999999,"text":"讓原民會在其他的業務上不能夠做事嗎"},{"start":862.4399999999999,"end":863.9599999999999,"text":"是這樣子嗎"},{"start":863.9599999999999,"end":865.24,"text":"如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":865.24,"end":867.88,"text":"行政院長你太可惡了"},{"start":867.88,"end":869.3199999999999,"text":"我希望今天"},{"start":869.3199999999999,"end":871.24,"text":"這也是我最後在這邊講到"},{"start":871.24,"end":873.48,"text":"中發基金的最後一次質詢"},{"start":873.48,"end":875.3199999999999,"text":"原民會要硬起來"},{"start":875.3199999999999,"end":876.52,"text":"您剛剛說過了"},{"start":876.52,"end":878.4399999999999,"text":"主決議已經做了"},{"start":878.4399999999999,"end":884.4399999999999,"text":"中和發展基金本來就應該要撥補完整"},{"start":884.5200000000001,"end":889.08,"text":"如果我們今天行政院不撥補完整"},{"start":889.08,"end":893.24,"text":"那做多少的主決議也沒有用"},{"start":893.24,"end":896.6800000000001,"text":"就算我在原基法裡面要修這個"},{"start":896.6800000000001,"end":899,"text":"我相信他也會不附屬"},{"start":899,"end":901.6400000000001,"text":"所以原民會我們一起加油好不好"},{"start":901.6400000000001,"end":904.44,"text":"我們一起加油好不好"},{"start":904.44,"end":906.6800000000001,"text":"相信院裡面也會考量原民會的處理"},{"start":906.6800000000001,"end":907.48,"text":"希望"},{"start":907.48,"end":910.9200000000001,"text":"你要不要這個大聲的跟行政院長喊話"},{"start":910.9200000000001,"end":913.8000000000001,"text":"卓院長希望你聽到我們的聲音"},{"start":913.8,"end":918.28,"text":"中和發展基金麻煩撥補完整"},{"start":918.28,"end":921.4,"text":"他會按照我們的需求來配合"},{"start":921.4,"end":923.4,"text":"我剛剛已經問你三個問題了"},{"start":923.4,"end":925.4,"text":"你都說第一不是原民會的責任"},{"start":925.4,"end":927,"text":"不是你們經營不善"},{"start":927,"end":929.56,"text":"然後也不是因為你們基金業務不多"},{"start":929.56,"end":931.3199999999999,"text":"所以不需要這個錢"},{"start":931.3199999999999,"end":932.92,"text":"然後"},{"start":932.92,"end":934.28,"text":"主決議也做了"},{"start":934.28,"end":935.9599999999999,"text":"你剛剛也回答我的問題了"},{"start":935.9599999999999,"end":939,"text":"請勇敢的跟卓院長說"},{"start":939,"end":941,"text":"請你不要再霸凌族人了"},{"start":941,"end":941.7199999999999,"text":"好嗎"},{"start":941.7199999999999,"end":943.7199999999999,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":943.8,"end":945.8,"text":"謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:15.410000+08:00","text":"請副主委。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:15.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:16.645000+08:00","text":"副主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:16.645000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:17.880000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:17.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:24.298667+08:00","text":"大家對於南島語族航海計畫，也就是巴丹島這個案子各自都有不同的看法、都很好。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:24.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:32.430400+08:00","text":"我想請問一下，這個案子是原民會生成的，還是原文會的發想？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:32.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:42.095652+08:00","text":"最早在111年是原文會有跟文化部申請預算，大概是1,200萬。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:43.248571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:45.434286+08:00","text":"簡單講，就是原文會發起？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:45.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:48.480000+08:00","text":"後來在114年才又再跟會裡面針對國家語言整體發展方案……","quality":0.522},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:49.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:51.328000+08:00","text":"115年跟文化部……","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:51.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:52.376000+08:00","text":"是114年，111年是跟文化部……","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:52.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:53.864000+08:00","text":"111年跟文化部……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:54.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:13:55.960000+08:00","text":"他們一開始啟動這樣的航海計畫。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:13:57.106667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:00.226667+08:00","text":"所以111年沒有成型？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:01.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:06.240000+08:00","text":"沒有，當時著重在造舟，造拼板舟還有一些相關的籌備。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:06.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:10.593333+08:00","text":"所以這個計畫應該是111年一直到現在，是不是？是。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:10.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:11.600000+08:00","text":"115年完成？是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:13.472727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:16.647273+08:00","text":"也就是很長的一個計畫了？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:17.248421+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:21.471579+08:00","text":"請問一下，這個計畫在你們會內開了多少次會？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:26.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:26.893333+08:00","text":"最少十次。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:27.657143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:29.951429+08:00","text":"也就是有完整的開會紀錄？是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:30.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:33.960000+08:00","text":"請問一下，可不可以提供完整的開會紀錄給我？可以。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:34.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:36.970000+08:00","text":"為什麼今天會有這樣的專案報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:37.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:14:44.860000+08:00","text":"是因為我覺得這一次的行動太過於草率，為什麼草率呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:14:45.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:15:01.527059+08:00","text":"你看你們的巴丹島直航計畫3,850萬、專案管理行政費750萬，編列那麼高的管理費，為什麼這次計畫仍然出現重大缺失？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:15:02.124706+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:15:27.523636+08:00","text":"你們報告也沒有講這個缺失是什麼，只說這是一個非常成功的計畫，事實上，航程的規劃執行費是1,150萬，然後舟體內部結構遭海浪嚴重破壞，船板的座位也被沖走了，因為船體持續進水，所以就沒有辦法划行了。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:15:28.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:15:37.022857+08:00","text":"你們挑戰的是黑潮，黑潮不是那麼容易的，你去google一下黑潮，AI會怎麼告訴你？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:15:37.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:15:54.777143+08:00","text":"它的潮流是非常險竣的，哪是你們這樣草草率率就可以，當然會碰到無法繼續划行，然後花了一千多萬的規劃，你們卻連安全還有應變都沒有做好，請問這是成功嗎？","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:15:55.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:16:14.800000+08:00","text":"你們在今天的檢討報告裡面也沒有寫，未來你們如果還要再做，還會面對同樣的問題，但原文會給我的報告說，你們航程未完成是因為護航的船叫做清美號，它的發電機故障了。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:16:15.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:16:19.120000+08:00","text":"請問一下，到底是發電機故障還是船體進水？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:16:21.741818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:16:26.060000+08:00","text":"關於這個航行，我們當然做了非常充分的安全評估跟規劃，還有應變措施都有做……","quality":0.606},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:16:26.589474+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:16:29.385263+08:00","text":"你們不知道挑戰黑潮是一件非常嚴重的事情嗎？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:16:29.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:16:33.457778+08:00","text":"達悟族族人的前輩、祖先應該都清楚知道！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:16:33.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:16:36.260000+08:00","text":"憑良心講，現場的現況變化可能跟我們的計畫有一點落差，這個也是我們事後在想……","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:16:36.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:16:41.640000+08:00","text":"請問一下，這樣的變化有沒有在你們的規劃跟討論範圍之內？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:16:41.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:16:48.141818+08:00","text":"我再講一次，你們挑戰的是黑潮，不是普通的洋流。","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:16:48.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:16:52.896000+08:00","text":"我們在籌辦的過程當中，當然有充分討論應變機制、可能遇到什麼狀況之類的，所以才會這一次有發生一些……","quality":0.341},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:16:53.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:17:02.582222+08:00","text":"請問一下，到底是你們護航的船發電機故障還是船體進水，還是你們發現黑潮不是那麼容易挑戰的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:17:03.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:17:07.937143+08:00","text":"因為他們划出去以後，發現到湧浪比預想的還要大。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:17:08.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:17:10.833333+08:00","text":"發現到是划出去才發現嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:17:11.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:17:14.042500+08:00","text":"難道你們在規劃的時候都不會想到嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:17:14.042500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T10:17:17.760000+08:00","text":"不是，因為當時規劃覺得那樣的浪是可以的，整個評估是可以的。","quality":0.269},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:17:17.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:17:28.480000+08:00","text":"我今天不想看到我們在這邊針鋒相對，我們要了解的是花了3,850萬的錢，有沒有完整的規劃？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:17:28.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:17:36.206154+08:00","text":"而今天要你們專案報告就是希望你們能夠記取教訓，下次不要再有這樣的事情發生。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:17:36.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:17:45.813333+08:00","text":"當然做文化交流、傳承文化，蘭嶼、達悟族人不是只有一艘拼板舟，有好多艘，對不對？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:17:45.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:17:59.376000+08:00","text":"而且你們跟巴丹的交流也不是三百年來首次，有幾次了，既然你們要做這麼大的政治宣示，總是要有一些規劃。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:17:59.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:18:10.160000+08:00","text":"如果你們有一些政治上的宣示或政治上的意圖，就如剛剛幾個委員講的，你們要有你們的功能，未來在哪裡？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:18:10.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:18:21.360000+08:00","text":"今天你們的報告完全沒有，然後我覺得也沒有看到真相，就是你剛剛跟我講的，划出去就發現洋流非常大，所以船體進水。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:18:21.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:18:24.573333+08:00","text":"不是，那是突發，因為有那樣的湧浪，為了安全第一，所以先把人……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:18:24.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:18:31.562500+08:00","text":"我當然了解安全第一，但是你們在划出去之前，都不知道黑潮的洋流是這麼嚴重的嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:18:31.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:18:32.720000+08:00","text":"是有評估。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:18:33.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:18:36.835000+08:00","text":"既然評估了，為什麼你們的護航船還會發生發電機沒電？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:18:39.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:18:50.066667+08:00","text":"副主委，今天不要在這邊繼續講了，我現在要凸顯的是，你們根本沒有好好規劃，你們只是想要完成這件事情。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:18:50.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:19:03.560000+08:00","text":"你知道這件事情如你剛剛所說的，關乎達悟族人的安危，而且裡面划船的人不全是達悟族人，還有漢族人、其他的人……有60位。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:19:03.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:19:15.560000+08:00","text":"如果你們真的要所有的參與者都是蘭嶼達悟族人，應該規劃好、訓練好，全部都由達悟族人一起參與這件事情，不是更有意義嗎？好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:19:19.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:19:44.665455+08:00","text":"我再講第二個，請你們再把你們具體的檢討報告，還有未來要做的……剛剛有非常多的委員，包括宏陸委員也好，廖先翔委員也好，都想到你們未來還要做些什麼事情，我希望原民會、原文會做事情的時候不要雷聲大、雨點小，後續的也沒有想好，每一次想做什麼就做什麼。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:19:45.957333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:19:54.820000+08:00","text":"原民會的預算本來就很少了，請原民會在操作自己族人事情的時候專業一點，好不好？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:19:54.820000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T10:19:55.820000+08:00","text":"這個航海的計畫……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:19:55.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:20:16.594286+08:00","text":"另外，我要跟您談的是原住民族廣播電臺基地台的設置，剛剛宏陸委員也說了，對於宣傳族人的事務，你們應該要非常的上手，雖然我們看到你們辦活動的時候非常積極，可是你們最基本的業務管理，讓人非常失望。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:20:16.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:20:34.880000+08:00","text":"107年決標的原廣臺基地台設置案預計十個月之後就要完工，但是到現在歷經十年，你們才完成了三站，整體進度只有15%，請問這十年到底發生了什麼事情？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:20:37.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:20:39.070000+08:00","text":"這十年發生了什麼事？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:20:42.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:20:47.392941+08:00","text":"在履約的過程中，這個廠商已經沒有要繼續履約。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:20:48.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:00.020000+08:00","text":"當然在這個過程裡面有很多爭議產生，我們也提報了採購法第一百零一條，針對這個廠商的部分做一些處理，後續我們事實上也可能會再重新採購。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:00.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:06.328889+08:00","text":"另外，針對在這個過程裡面的相關損失，會要求這個廠商補償。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:07.581333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:14.873846+08:00","text":"副主委，你剛剛說的這些部分已經10年了，我們就只聽到這樣的答案嗎？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:15.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:20.070769+08:00","text":"請問原民會，誰分管原文會的事務？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:20.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:21.893333+08:00","text":"哪一位副主委？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:24.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:27.040000+08:00","text":"原民會是不是要監督？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:27.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:29.900000+08:00","text":"還是原文會自己的責任？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:31.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:33.360000+08:00","text":"這個工作事實上在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:33.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:41.226667+08:00","text":"你們有3位副主委，誰在負責這一個部分？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:42.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:45.920000+08:00","text":"原則上是陳副主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:47.596364+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:49.363636+08:00","text":"請問他知道這件事情嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:50.582857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:21:53.737143+08:00","text":"請問陳副主委之前是誰在分管？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:21:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:22:17.891429+08:00","text":"我剛剛提到是107年決標，你說是因為廠商的問題，但是這10年來卻沒有人對這個廠商或者是這件事情關心過，要不是我在今年的預算裡面凍結你們的預算，要求你們說明，是不是還要再拖10年，請問副主委？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:22:18.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:22:21.320000+08:00","text":"不會啦，之前是鍾興華在業管。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:22:22.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:22:32.960000+08:00","text":"他已經退休了，請問你們可不可以明確承諾，目前還有17站沒有完成，你們要什麼時候完成？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:22:34.430588+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:22:36.689412+08:00","text":"我請業務單位來跟委員說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:22:36.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:22:37.533333+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長坤昇","start":"2026-07-30T10:22:37.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:22:38.280000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長坤昇","start":"2026-07-30T10:22:38.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:22:55.712727+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，整個原住民族廣播電臺站台的籌設進度，整個中長程計畫要完成37站，目前已經建構完成32站，其中5站中有1站是梅山站，梅山站的地形及用地取得是非常大的問題，目前可能還要再重新規劃。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:22:55.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:22:56.510000+08:00","text":"剛剛宏陸委員講過了。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳處長坤昇","start":"2026-07-30T10:22:56.874286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:00.165714+08:00","text":"還有4站在明年中旬一定會完成。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:00.635556+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:03.228571+08:00","text":"你們還沒有完成的要怎麼解決？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:03.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:10.768000+08:00","text":"剛剛宏陸委員已經教你們了，你們是不是可以橫向聯繫，請其他的部會來幫你們？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"陳處長坤昇","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:11.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:20.710000+08:00","text":"可以，其實我們現在也在想要跟其他的民間廣播電臺或國家廣播電臺合作，他們如果在當地附近有站台，我們可以透過跟他們共掛的方式來解決這樣的問題。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:21.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:25.731429+08:00","text":"請問今天質詢完了之後，誰要負責這件事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長坤昇","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:26.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:32.192727+08:00","text":"這個事情我會親自督導，因為過去一年多來，我也持續在要求這個事情。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:32.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:36.600000+08:00","text":"好，所以你的意思是今年會完成全部。明年。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:38.302857+08:00","text":"明年會完成全部？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長坤昇","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:38.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:50.049412+08:00","text":"除了梅山站以外，因為梅山站的確碰到很大的問題，因為它的用地取得包括整個地形在建構上是非常困難的，現在碰到梅山站可能就沒辦法做，我們用其他替代措施來處理。","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:50.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:55.160000+08:00","text":"好的，因為時間的關係，我們不希望再延宕10年了，好嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳處長坤昇","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:55.160000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:56.160000+08:00","text":"不可能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:55.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:23:57.853333+08:00","text":"這是族人的收視權益。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:23:58.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:24:34.320000+08:00","text":"另外，不好意思，召委再給我一點點時間，因為今天有原住民族基本法的修法，這個法從94年我上任以後推動到現在，沒有機會依照現在族人的需求來通盤檢討，今天終於有了，我也提出了15條修正條文，約占全法四成，涵蓋民族會議、自治制度、綜合發展基金、傳統領域以及都會原住民權益等重要議題，請問副主委，原民會支持嗎？","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:24:34.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:24:36.440000+08:00","text":"你們支持修法嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:24:36.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:24:43.368000+08:00","text":"支持，有些條文我們都有在檢視，到時候我們逐條審查的時候再跟委員報告。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:24:43.368000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T10:24:44.368000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:24:43.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:25:00.884444+08:00","text":"我今天要先跟你講的是我一直在講的綜合發展基金，我要請教你3個問題，很快，第一個，有人認為綜合發展基金目前累積短絀68.7億，是因為原民會經營不善造成的，你同意這樣的說法嗎？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:25:02.476364+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:25:04.221818+08:00","text":"主要還是禁伐補償的費用。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:25:04.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:25:07.836923+08:00","text":"所以是你們經營不善造成的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:25:08.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:25:11.620000+08:00","text":"累積短絀那麼多錢。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:25:12.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:25:14.709091+08:00","text":"應該不是，主要還是禁伐補償的經費。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:25:15.773333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:25:24.480000+08:00","text":"第二，有人認為這個基金的業務不多，所以不需要每年撥補23億，你同意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:25:24.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:25:30.040000+08:00","text":"我覺得依法應該要有多少的經費就應該要補足，我們也一直跟主總在協調。很好！","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:25:30.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:25:40.920000+08:00","text":"尤其115年的時候，我做過主決議，希望行政院每年能夠撥補23億進來，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:25:41.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:25:52.280000+08:00","text":"第三個，也有人認為未來兩年原本要還給族人的63億，只要還10億就可以了，原民會同意這件事情嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:25:53.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:26:00.960000+08:00","text":"我們持續跟主總協調，因為當時也有立法院的決議，我們希望能夠儘快撥補。很好！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:26:01.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:26:49.693333+08:00","text":"我剛剛以上講的這3個問題，全部都是行政院的見解，行政院的秘書長就在這個地方回答我這樣的問題，主計總處說明年還給族人10億就好了，你也說這不符合立法院的主決議，這個主決議也是我做的，所以我可以在這邊毫不客氣地說，行政院，你們就是要霸凌族人，你們就是在霸凌原民會，原民會給你們那麼多的公文，再次請求你們，請你們撥補完成綜發基金的預算，要不然綜發基金真的不能夠做事了，但是它只給10億。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:26:50.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:27:24.022222+08:00","text":"我希望今天是我在這裡最後一次質詢，行政院院長，你有聽到我今天在這裡質詢的話，還有族人我們應該憤怒，這是立法院的主決議，而且剛剛副主委講過了，這個基金是我們族人立法通過的禁伐補償，本來是3萬塊，現在多了3萬變6萬，行政院不想要履行，所以就在綜合發展基金裡面延宕嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:27:24.854545+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:27:26.832727+08:00","text":"修理我們的原民會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:27:27.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:27:31.656000+08:00","text":"讓原民會在其他的業務上面不能夠做事，是這樣子嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:27:31.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:27:35.586667+08:00","text":"如果是這樣子的話，行政院院長太可惡了！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:27:35.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:28:09.451429+08:00","text":"我希望今天也是我在這邊講到綜發基金的最後一次質詢，原民會要硬起來，你剛剛說過主決議已經做了，綜合發展基金本來就應該要撥補完整，如果今天行政院不撥補完整，做多少的主決議也沒有用，就算我在原基法裡面要修這個，我相信他也會不副署，所以原民會，我們一起加油，好不好？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:28:09.451429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T10:28:10.451429+08:00","text":"委員，我們會持續跟院裡面溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:28:09.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:28:12.128889+08:00","text":"我們一起加油，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:28:12.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:28:14.381333+08:00","text":"我相信院裡面也會考量原民會的處境。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:28:15.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:28:18.705000+08:00","text":"你要不要在這裡大聲地跟行政院院長喊話？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:28:18.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:28:25.906667+08:00","text":"卓院長，希望你聽到我們的聲音，綜合發展基金麻煩撥補完整。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2026-07-30T10:28:26.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:28:29.140000+08:00","text":"我相信院裡面也會考量原民會的需求，它會按照我們的需求來配合。","quality":0.393},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2026-07-30T10:28:29.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-30T10:28:50.720000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經問你3個問題了，你都說不是原民會的責任，不是你們經營不善，也不是因為你們基金業務不多，所以不需要這個錢，主決議也做了，你剛剛也回答我的問題了，請勇敢的跟卓院長說，請你不要再霸凌族人了，好嗎？謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-30T10:28:51.220000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-30T10:28:54.362857+08:00","text":"下一位請林宜瑾委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時13分）請副主委。"],["主席：副主委。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：大家對於南島語族航海計畫，也就是巴丹島這個案子各自都有不同的看法、都很好。我想請問一下，這個案子是原民會生成的，還是原文會的發想？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：最早在111年是原文會有跟文化部申請預算，大概是1,200萬。"],["高金委員素梅：簡單講，就是原文會發起？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：後來在114年才又再跟會裡面針對國家語言整體發展方案……"],["高金委員素梅：115年跟文化部……"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：是114年，111年是跟文化部……"],["高金委員素梅：111年跟文化部……"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：他們一開始啟動這樣的航海計畫。"],["高金委員素梅：所以111年沒有成型？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：沒有，當時著重在造舟，造拼板舟還有一些相關的籌備。"],["高金委員素梅：所以這個計畫應該是111年一直到現在，是不是？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：是。"],["高金委員素梅：115年完成？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：是。"],["高金委員素梅：也就是很長的一個計畫了？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：對。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下，這個計畫在你們會內開了多少次會？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：最少十次。"],["高金委員素梅：也就是有完整的開會紀錄？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：是。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下，可不可以提供完整的開會紀錄給我？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：為什麼今天會有這樣的專案報告？是因為我覺得這一次的行動太過於草率，為什麼草率呢？你看你們的巴丹島直航計畫3,850萬、專案管理行政費750萬，編列那麼高的管理費，為什麼這次計畫仍然出現重大缺失？你們報告也沒有講這個缺失是什麼，只說這是一個非常成功的計畫，事實上，航程的規劃執行費是1,150萬，然後舟體內部結構遭海浪嚴重破壞，船板的座位也被沖走了，因為船體持續進水，所以就沒有辦法划行了。你們挑戰的是黑潮，黑潮不是那麼容易的，你去google一下黑潮，AI會怎麼告訴你？它的潮流是非常險竣的，哪是你們這樣草草率率就可以，當然會碰到無法繼續划行，然後花了一千多萬的規劃，你們卻連安全還有應變都沒有做好，請問這是成功嗎？你們在今天的檢討報告裡面也沒有寫，未來你們如果還要再做，還會面對同樣的問題，但原文會給我的報告說，你們航程未完成是因為護航的船叫做清美號，它的發電機故障了。請問一下，到底是發電機故障還是船體進水？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：關於這個航行，我們當然做了非常充分的安全評估跟規劃，還有應變措施都有做……"],["高金委員素梅：你們不知道挑戰黑潮是一件非常嚴重的事情嗎？達悟族族人的前輩、祖先應該都清楚知道！"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：憑良心講，現場的現況變化可能跟我們的計畫有一點落差，這個也是我們事後在想……"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下，這樣的變化有沒有在你們的規劃跟討論範圍之內？我再講一次，你們挑戰的是黑潮，不是普通的洋流。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：我們在籌辦的過程當中，當然有充分討論應變機制、可能遇到什麼狀況之類的，所以才會這一次有發生一些……"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下，到底是你們護航的船發電機故障還是船體進水，還是你們發現黑潮不是那麼容易挑戰的？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：因為他們划出去以後，發現到湧浪比預想的還要大。"],["高金委員素梅：發現到是划出去才發現嗎？難道你們在規劃的時候都不會想到嗎？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：不是，因為當時規劃覺得那樣的浪是可以的，整個評估是可以的。"],["高金委員素梅：我今天不想看到我們在這邊針鋒相對，我們要了解的是花了3,850萬的錢，有沒有完整的規劃？而今天要你們專案報告就是希望你們能夠記取教訓，下次不要再有這樣的事情發生。當然做文化交流、傳承文化，蘭嶼、達悟族人不是只有一艘拼板舟，有好多艘，對不對？而且你們跟巴丹的交流也不是三百年來首次，有幾次了，既然你們要做這麼大的政治宣示，總是要有一些規劃。如果你們有一些政治上的宣示或政治上的意圖，就如剛剛幾個委員講的，你們要有你們的功能，未來在哪裡？今天你們的報告完全沒有，然後我覺得也沒有看到真相，就是你剛剛跟我講的，划出去就發現洋流非常大，所以船體進水。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：不是，那是突發，因為有那樣的湧浪，為了安全第一，所以先把人……"],["高金委員素梅：我當然了解安全第一，但是你們在划出去之前，都不知道黑潮的洋流是這麼嚴重的嗎？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：是有評估。"],["高金委員素梅：既然評估了，為什麼你們的護航船還會發生發電機沒電？副主委，今天不要在這邊繼續講了，我現在要凸顯的是，你們根本沒有好好規劃，你們只是想要完成這件事情。你知道這件事情如你剛剛所說的，關乎達悟族人的安危，而且裡面划船的人不全是達悟族人，還有漢族人、其他的人……"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：有60位。"],["高金委員素梅：如果你們真的要所有的參與者都是蘭嶼達悟族人，應該規劃好、訓練好，全部都由達悟族人一起參與這件事情，不是更有意義嗎？好嗎？謝謝。","我再講第二個，請你們再把你們具體的檢討報告，還有未來要做的……剛剛有非常多的委員，包括宏陸委員也好，廖先翔委員也好，都想到你們未來還要做些什麼事情，我希望原民會、原文會做事情的時候不要雷聲大、雨點小，後續的也沒有想好，每一次想做什麼就做什麼。原民會的預算本來就很少了，請原民會在操作自己族人事情的時候專業一點，好不好？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：這個航海的計畫……"],["高金委員素梅：另外，我要跟您談的是原住民族廣播電臺基地台的設置，剛剛宏陸委員也說了，對於宣傳族人的事務，你們應該要非常的上手，雖然我們看到你們辦活動的時候非常積極，可是你們最基本的業務管理，讓人非常失望。107年決標的原廣臺基地台設置案預計十個月之後就要完工，但是到現在歷經十年，你們才完成了三站，整體進度只有15%，請問這十年到底發生了什麼事情？這十年發生了什麼事？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：在履約的過程中，這個廠商已經沒有要繼續履約。當然在這個過程裡面有很多爭議產生，我們也提報了採購法第一百零一條，針對這個廠商的部分做一些處理，後續我們事實上也可能會再重新採購。另外，針對在這個過程裡面的相關損失，會要求這個廠商補償。"],["高金委員素梅：副主委，你剛剛說的這些部分已經10年了，我們就只聽到這樣的答案嗎？請問原民會，誰分管原文會的事務？哪一位副主委？原民會是不是要監督？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：是。"],["高金委員素梅：還是原文會自己的責任？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：這個工作事實上在……"],["高金委員素梅：你們有3位副主委，誰在負責這一個部分？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：原則上是陳副主委。"],["高金委員素梅：請問他知道這件事情嗎？請問陳副主委之前是誰在分管？我剛剛提到是107年決標，你說是因為廠商的問題，但是這10年來卻沒有人對這個廠商或者是這件事情關心過，要不是我在今年的預算裡面凍結你們的預算，要求你們說明，是不是還要再拖10年，請問副主委？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：不會啦，之前是鍾興華在業管。"],["高金委員素梅：他已經退休了，請問你們可不可以明確承諾，目前還有17站沒有完成，你們要什麼時候完成？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：我請業務單位來跟委員說明一下。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。"],["陳處長坤昇：委員好。跟委員報告，整個原住民族廣播電臺站台的籌設進度，整個中長程計畫要完成37站，目前已經建構完成32站，其中5站中有1站是梅山站，梅山站的地形及用地取得是非常大的問題，目前可能還要再重新規劃。"],["高金委員素梅：剛剛宏陸委員講過了。"],["陳處長坤昇：還有4站在明年中旬一定會完成。"],["高金委員素梅：你們還沒有完成的要怎麼解決？剛剛宏陸委員已經教你們了，你們是不是可以橫向聯繫，請其他的部會來幫你們？"],["陳處長坤昇：可以，其實我們現在也在想要跟其他的民間廣播電臺或國家廣播電臺合作，他們如果在當地附近有站台，我們可以透過跟他們共掛的方式來解決這樣的問題。"],["高金委員素梅：請問今天質詢完了之後，誰要負責這件事？"],["陳處長坤昇：這個事情我會親自督導，因為過去一年多來，我也持續在要求這個事情。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以你的意思是今年會完成全部。"],["陳處長坤昇：明年。"],["高金委員素梅：明年會完成全部？"],["陳處長坤昇：除了梅山站以外，因為梅山站的確碰到很大的問題，因為它的用地取得包括整個地形在建構上是非常困難的，現在碰到梅山站可能就沒辦法做，我們用其他替代措施來處理。"],["高金委員素梅：好的，因為時間的關係，我們不希望再延宕10年了，好嗎？"],["陳處長坤昇：不可能。"],["高金委員素梅：這是族人的收視權益。另外，不好意思，召委再給我一點點時間，因為今天有原住民族基本法的修法，這個法從94年我上任以後推動到現在，沒有機會依照現在族人的需求來通盤檢討，今天終於有了，我也提出了15條修正條文，約占全法四成，涵蓋民族會議、自治制度、綜合發展基金、傳統領域以及都會原住民權益等重要議題，請問副主委，原民會支持嗎？你們支持修法嗎？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：支持，有些條文我們都有在檢視，到時候我們逐條審查的時候再跟委員報告。"],["高金委員素梅：沒問題。我今天要先跟你講的是我一直在講的綜合發展基金，我要請教你3個問題，很快，第一個，有人認為綜合發展基金目前累積短絀68.7億，是因為原民會經營不善造成的，你同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：主要還是禁伐補償的費用。"],["高金委員素梅：所以是你們經營不善造成的嗎？累積短絀那麼多錢。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：應該不是，主要還是禁伐補償的經費。"],["高金委員素梅：第二，有人認為這個基金的業務不多，所以不需要每年撥補23億，你同意嗎？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：我覺得依法應該要有多少的經費就應該要補足，我們也一直跟主總在協調。"],["高金委員素梅：很好！尤其115年的時候，我做過主決議，希望行政院每年能夠撥補23億進來，對不對？第三個，也有人認為未來兩年原本要還給族人的63億，只要還10億就可以了，原民會同意這件事情嗎？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：我們持續跟主總協調，因為當時也有立法院的決議，我們希望能夠儘快撥補。"],["高金委員素梅：很好！我剛剛以上講的這3個問題，全部都是行政院的見解，行政院的秘書長就在這個地方回答我這樣的問題，主計總處說明年還給族人10億就好了，你也說這不符合立法院的主決議，這個主決議也是我做的，所以我可以在這邊毫不客氣地說，行政院，你們就是要霸凌族人，你們就是在霸凌原民會，原民會給你們那麼多的公文，再次請求你們，請你們撥補完成綜發基金的預算，要不然綜發基金真的不能夠做事了，但是它只給10億。我希望今天是我在這裡最後一次質詢，行政院院長，你有聽到我今天在這裡質詢的話，還有族人我們應該憤怒，這是立法院的主決議，而且剛剛副主委講過了，這個基金是我們族人立法通過的禁伐補償，本來是3萬塊，現在多了3萬變6萬，行政院不想要履行，所以就在綜合發展基金裡面延宕嗎？修理我們的原民會嗎？讓原民會在其他的業務上面不能夠做事，是這樣子嗎？如果是這樣子的話，行政院院長太可惡了！我希望今天也是我在這邊講到綜發基金的最後一次質詢，原民會要硬起來，你剛剛說過主決議已經做了，綜合發展基金本來就應該要撥補完整，如果今天行政院不撥補完整，做多少的主決議也沒有用，就算我在原基法裡面要修這個，我相信他也會不副署，所以原民會，我們一起加油，好不好？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：委員，我們會持續跟院裡面溝通。"],["高金委員素梅：我們一起加油，好不好？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：我相信院裡面也會考量原民會的處境。"],["高金委員素梅：你要不要在這裡大聲地跟行政院院長喊話？卓院長，希望你聽到我們的聲音，綜合發展基金麻煩撥補完整。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：我相信院裡面也會考量原民會的需求，它會按照我們的需求來配合。"],["高金委員素梅：我剛剛已經問你3個問題了，你都說不是原民會的責任，不是你們經營不善，也不是因為你們基金業務不多，所以不需要這個錢，主決議也做了，你剛剛也回答我的問題了，請勇敢的跟卓院長說，請你不要再霸凌族人了，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請林宜瑾委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-15-21","speakers":["廖先翔","蘇巧慧","許忠信","王美惠","黃捷","張宏陸","高金素梅","林宜瑾","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","盧縣一","林倩綺","王鴻薇","張智倫","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-30"],"gazette_id":"1156802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、 邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事\n業基金會就「『海路－南島語族航海計畫』、『國際原住民族傳統競技文化交流族語節目（世界\n原住民族傳統運動會）』、『原住民族廣播電臺訊源傳輸及監控系統設備建置與相關基地台設\n置』等重大計畫執行進度、經費運用及成果認定檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、「原住民\n身分法」等11案：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民身分法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法修正草案」案、(四)繼續\n審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「原住民身分法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)繼續審查委員高金\n素梅等 17 人擬具「原住民身分法刪除第十一條條文草案」案、 ( 六 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等20人擬具「原住民身分法第七條條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員黃仁等19人擬具「原\n住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員黃仁等18人擬具「原住民身分法第七條條文\n修正草案」案、(九)審查委員盧縣一等17人擬具「原住民身分法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n審查委員陳瑩等 16 人擬具「原住民身分法第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一 ) 審查委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、「原住民族基\n本法」等15案：(一)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民族基本法增\n訂第二條之二條文草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住\n民族基本法第二十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「原住民族基\n本法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員黃仁等30人擬具「原住民族基本法第十九條條文\n修正草案」案、( 五) 繼續審查委員黃仁等26 人擬具「原住民族基本法第十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第六條之一條文草\n案」案、( 七) 繼續審查委員黃仁等20 人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十八條之一條文草案」\n案、(八)繼續審查委員黃仁等22人擬具「原住民族基本法第十條條文修正草案」案、(九)繼續審\n查委員黃仁等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十)繼續審查委員高金素梅\n等 20 人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(十二)繼續審查委員盧縣一等\n18 人 擬 具 「 原 住 民 族 基 本 法 部 分 條 文 修 正 草 案 」 案 、 ( 十 三 ) 審 查 委 員 伍 麗 華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等17人擬具「原住民族基本法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)審查委員林宜瑾等18\n人 擬 具 「 原 住 民 族 基 本 法 第 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 」 案 、 ( 十 五 ) 審 查 委 員 伍 麗 華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等21人擬具「原住民族基本法第二十一條、第二十一條之一及第二十一條之二條文\n修正草案」案（逐條審查）","agenda_id":"1156802_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}