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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員李柏毅等20人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第十八條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查「香港澳門關係條例」：(一)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「香港澳門關係條例部分條文修正草案」案。【僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.654093750000001,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.73284375,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.45846875,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.42034375,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.242843750000002,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.42346875,"end":28.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.937843750000003,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.266593750000002,"end":34.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.04659375,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.74659375,"end":39.400343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.244093750000005,"end":54.705968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.72284375,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.110968750000005,"end":58.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.75596875,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.68409375,"end":61.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.53596875,"end":70.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.26471875,"end":71.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.44596875,"end":75.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.55971875,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.47909375,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.72346875000001,"end":79.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.31409375,"end":80.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.30096875000001,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.38909375,"end":88.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.46846875,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.22284375000001,"end":96.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.75409375000001,"end":98.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.88471875,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.02784375,"end":103.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.88784375,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.46534375,"end":112.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.92471875000001,"end":112.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.94159375000001,"end":115.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.52346875,"end":118.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.88159375000001,"end":118.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.89846875,"end":120.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.91534375,"end":119.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.73784375000001,"end":124.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.65284375,"end":129.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.88409375,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.25909375,"end":136.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.70159375,"end":138.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.45659375,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.31721875,"end":142.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.27034375,"end":142.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.62471875,"end":143.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.89471875,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.89034375,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.97471875000002,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.43034375000002,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.94034375,"end":148.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.88096875000002,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.89784375000002,"end":149.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.92221875,"end":158.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.62221875,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.36846875,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.74346875,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.38784375,"end":173.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.42159375,"end":174.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.02909375000002,"end":174.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.07971875,"end":175.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.18096875,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.92346875,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.46346875,"end":176.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.69971875000002,"end":177.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.84284375000001,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.89346875,"end":178.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.34471875,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00",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通訊水庫"},{"start":53.06,"end":55.06,"text":"科技園區"},{"start":55.06,"end":58.06,"text":"或其他關鍵基礎設施的周邊"},{"start":58.06,"end":62.06,"text":"那這幾年您可以簡單的回覆這幾個問題嗎"},{"start":62.06,"end":64.06,"text":"謝謝委員子"},{"start":64.06,"end":69.06,"text":"有關於中國大陸人民來台灣取得不動產的建樹"},{"start":69.06,"end":71.06,"text":"我們是許可志嘛"},{"start":71.06,"end":73.06,"text":"近十年"},{"start":73.06,"end":77.06,"text":"我們總共的建樹是748件"},{"start":77.06,"end":81.06,"text":"那有多少涉及土地面積"},{"start":81.06,"end":83.06,"text":"土地面積"},{"start":83.06,"end":87.06,"text":"我們如果按照權利價值的話"},{"start":87.06,"end":92.06,"text":"這個是百萬"},{"start":92.06,"end":98.06,"text":"有187億的價值"},{"start":98.06,"end":101.06,"text":"這是我們內政部估算的"},{"start":101.06,"end":102.06,"text":"我是問你"},{"start":102.06,"end":104.06,"text":"有多少"},{"start":104.06,"end":109.06,"text":"這些案件涉及多少土地面積"},{"start":109.06,"end":111.06,"text":"你剛剛講的是交易金額嗎"},{"start":111.06,"end":112.06,"text":"100多億"},{"start":112.06,"end":113.06,"text":"權利價值"},{"start":113.06,"end":115.06,"text":"權利價值 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通訊水庫"},{"start":156.06,"end":157.06,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":157.06,"end":159.06,"text":"我們的兩岸條例"},{"start":159.06,"end":162.06,"text":"就路人來購買這些不動產"},{"start":162.06,"end":165.06,"text":"都要由主管機關許可"},{"start":165.06,"end":166.06,"text":"我們是許可制"},{"start":166.06,"end":168.06,"text":"委員剛剛說到那些"},{"start":168.06,"end":171.06,"text":"可能國家關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":171.06,"end":173.06,"text":"或是藥塞保理地帶"},{"start":173.06,"end":175.06,"text":"我只是要問"},{"start":175.06,"end":177.06,"text":"都不許可"},{"start":177.06,"end":179.06,"text":"陸委會有沒有掌握"},{"start":179.06,"end":181.06,"text":"都沒有"},{"start":181.06,"end":182.06,"text":"都沒有"},{"start":182.06,"end":184.06,"text":"那接著本席請教"},{"start":184.06,"end":187.06,"text":"那我們這個在修法的時候"},{"start":187.06,"end":188.06,"text":"這個內容"},{"start":188.06,"end":193.06,"text":"它只寫到就是禁止屆民登記"},{"start":193.06,"end":194.06,"text":"那這個屆民登記"},{"start":194.06,"end":196.06,"text":"其實它只是一種最傳統"},{"start":196.06,"end":199.06,"text":"最表面的規避方式"},{"start":199.06,"end":201.06,"text":"就是如果對岸"},{"start":201.06,"end":204.06,"text":"大陸有人要來買我們這邊的"},{"start":204.06,"end":206.06,"text":"不動產土地的話"},{"start":206.06,"end":210.06,"text":"那所以它也有可能改用第三地的公司"},{"start":210.06,"end":212.06,"text":"或者是它用美國人民益"},{"start":212.06,"end":214.06,"text":"它用國際公司"},{"start":214.06,"end":216.06,"text":"化國企業等等"},{"start":216.06,"end":218.06,"text":"所以我們修法"},{"start":218.06,"end":221.06,"text":"我們也沒看到陸委會"},{"start":221.06,"end":222.06,"text":"陸委會就是同意"},{"start":222.06,"end":224.06,"text":"但陸委會好像也沒有版本"},{"start":224.06,"end":227.06,"text":"可是你們是主要的主管機關"},{"start":227.06,"end":229.06,"text":"所以我們希望修法核心"},{"start":229.06,"end":233.06,"text":"是不是就不能只寫屆民登記"},{"start":233.06,"end":235.06,"text":"是不是應該你要修"},{"start":235.06,"end":237.06,"text":"你就要完整的考量"},{"start":237.06,"end":238.06,"text":"要整套"},{"start":238.06,"end":240.06,"text":"這一塊您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":240.06,"end":241.06,"text":"我非常同意"},{"start":241.06,"end":245.06,"text":"如果有更完整的一個立法"},{"start":245.06,"end":247.06,"text":"讓大家可以來遵守"},{"start":247.06,"end":248.06,"text":"那你們自己有沒有版本"},{"start":248.06,"end":250.06,"text":"因為立委有考量到這一點"},{"start":250.06,"end":251.06,"text":"那當然立委"},{"start":251.06,"end":257.06,"text":"他團隊各方面也寫了這個法條"},{"start":257.06,"end":260.06,"text":"你們有自己的版本嗎"},{"start":260.06,"end":261.06,"text":"是"},{"start":261.06,"end":263.06,"text":"還有你們是主管機關"},{"start":263.06,"end":266.06,"text":"你們應該看得更全面更整全套"},{"start":266.06,"end":270.06,"text":"我們有跟武力華委員有很多的討論"},{"start":270.06,"end":273.06,"text":"特別是武力華委員非常關切的是"},{"start":273.06,"end":275.06,"text":"原住民保留地"},{"start":275.06,"end":277.06,"text":"非常大量的屆民登記"},{"start":277.06,"end":280.06,"text":"那他也認為有許多的路資"},{"start":280.06,"end":283.06,"text":"採取屆民登記來收購"},{"start":283.06,"end":285.06,"text":"我的問題就是"},{"start":285.06,"end":289.06,"text":"我們是很支持這個屆民登記"},{"start":289.06,"end":292.06,"text":"在這個土地登記跟移轉是無效的"},{"start":292.06,"end":293.06,"text":"當然要有證據"},{"start":293.06,"end":295.06,"text":"好啦我直接問你"},{"start":295.06,"end":299.06,"text":"陸委會是否支持在法律或明確授權命令中"},{"start":299.06,"end":301.06,"text":"建立實質受益人資金來源"},{"start":301.06,"end":304.06,"text":"以及實際控制的認定標準"},{"start":304.06,"end":308.06,"text":"我剛剛講了你只是屆民登記"},{"start":308.06,"end":310.06,"text":"你只是禁止屆民登記"},{"start":310.06,"end":312.06,"text":"但實際上他可以迂迴"},{"start":312.06,"end":314.06,"text":"他再用第三地第三人"},{"start":314.06,"end":316.06,"text":"各種方式"},{"start":316.06,"end":318.06,"text":"所以這一塊"},{"start":318.06,"end":321.06,"text":"我想你們來努力好不好"},{"start":321.06,"end":323.06,"text":"我這個質詢的時間"},{"start":323.06,"end":325.06,"text":"我知道委員是要避免漏洞"},{"start":325.06,"end":328.06,"text":"對當然很多規避漏洞"},{"start":328.06,"end":330.06,"text":"這個是你們的職責你知道嗎"},{"start":330.06,"end":333.06,"text":"你們主管單位行政單位的職責"},{"start":333.06,"end":335.06,"text":"所以我希望你們加油一點"},{"start":335.06,"end":337.06,"text":"那再來本席要問"},{"start":337.06,"end":341.06,"text":"好如果這個這邊"},{"start":341.06,"end":344.06,"text":"我們內政部只有來移民署"},{"start":344.06,"end":347.06,"text":"也就是說如果我們發現了"},{"start":347.06,"end":349.06,"text":"那你要這個"},{"start":349.06,"end":352.06,"text":"譬如說地政機關看到登記簿上的權利人"},{"start":352.06,"end":357.06,"text":"但地政機關他看得到跨境境外的匯款"},{"start":357.06,"end":359.06,"text":"就是說如果要查的話"},{"start":359.06,"end":361.06,"text":"這個單位誰來查"},{"start":361.06,"end":362.06,"text":"主責單位是你們嗎"},{"start":362.06,"end":363.06,"text":"不可能嗎"},{"start":363.06,"end":365.06,"text":"我想是主管單位"},{"start":365.06,"end":368.06,"text":"但今天內政部好像只有移民署"},{"start":368.06,"end":369.06,"text":"我們有地政司的同仁"},{"start":369.06,"end":371.06,"text":"地政司專門委員"},{"start":371.06,"end":375.06,"text":"報告委員如果是移轉登記的話"},{"start":375.06,"end":377.06,"text":"我們只會看依照契約上面"},{"start":377.06,"end":379.06,"text":"我們沒有辦法去查他的資金來"},{"start":379.06,"end":382.06,"text":"對所以現在主委"},{"start":382.06,"end":385.06,"text":"究竟哪一個機關來統合這件事"},{"start":385.06,"end":387.06,"text":"如果有檢舉案的話"},{"start":387.06,"end":390.06,"text":"誰負責查誰是主責機關"},{"start":390.06,"end":392.06,"text":"單一主責機關是誰"},{"start":392.06,"end":393.06,"text":"應該是誰"},{"start":393.06,"end":394.06,"text":"內政部"},{"start":394.06,"end":395.06,"text":"應該是內政部"},{"start":395.06,"end":397.06,"text":"那內政部怎麼辦"},{"start":397.06,"end":400.06,"text":"你有辦法查到境外匯款嗎"},{"start":400.06,"end":404.06,"text":"你看得到第三地公司的最終受益人嗎"},{"start":404.06,"end":408.06,"text":"還有你看得到股東之間的整個控制協議嗎"},{"start":408.06,"end":413.06,"text":"還有看得到金融機構的客戶審查資料嗎"},{"start":413.06,"end":415.06,"text":"看不到那怎麼辦"},{"start":415.06,"end":417.06,"text":"所以主責機關是內政部"},{"start":417.06,"end":421.06,"text":"那你們在韓請其他單位是這樣嗎"},{"start":421.06,"end":423.06,"text":"我們目前都這個部分是"},{"start":423.06,"end":425.06,"text":"因為今天的條文是沒有規定"},{"start":425.06,"end":428.06,"text":"對好很好你的回答"},{"start":428.06,"end":430.06,"text":"因為我的時間的關係"},{"start":430.06,"end":433.06,"text":"主委這個我們在修這個法的時候"},{"start":433.06,"end":435.06,"text":"要更完善一點好不好"},{"start":435.06,"end":437.06,"text":"我們今天大概點出幾個問題"},{"start":437.06,"end":438.06,"text":"是謝謝委員"},{"start":438.06,"end":440.06,"text":"你是主責單位你們"},{"start":440.06,"end":444.06,"text":"如果這個法案要討論真的要來修"},{"start":444.06,"end":447.06,"text":"那你們應該要更全面的考量"},{"start":447.06,"end":451.06,"text":"而且給出好的建議甚至好的版本"},{"start":451.06,"end":452.06,"text":"是好嗎"},{"start":452.06,"end":453.06,"text":"是謝謝委員"},{"start":453.06,"end":457.06,"text":"好OK那地政部地政司的請回座"},{"start":457.06,"end":461.06,"text":"那這個主委本席很快再詢問一下"},{"start":461.06,"end":464.06,"text":"因為我們現在食安的問題"},{"start":464.06,"end":467.06,"text":"我們兩岸有食安合作機制吧"},{"start":467.06,"end":468.06,"text":"有"},{"start":468.06,"end":474.06,"text":"尤其我們最近看到這個苦茶油"},{"start":474.06,"end":478.06,"text":"苦茶油也爆出來這個問題"},{"start":478.06,"end":481.06,"text":"那請問涉案的苦茶油"},{"start":481.06,"end":486.06,"text":"那個苦茶籽好像說是可能來自中國大陸"},{"start":486.06,"end":489.06,"text":"那請問我們陸委會"},{"start":489.06,"end":495.06,"text":"我們中華民國政府有沒有依照兩項協議"},{"start":495.06,"end":498.06,"text":"正式請求陸方共同調查"},{"start":498.06,"end":499.06,"text":"你們做了沒"},{"start":501.06,"end":502.06,"text":"還沒有"},{"start":502.06,"end":504.06,"text":"包委員因為主管機關"},{"start":504.06,"end":507.06,"text":"當然我們兩岸有食品安全協議"},{"start":507.06,"end":508.06,"text":"對"},{"start":508.06,"end":509.06,"text":"還有你剛剛提出來的"},{"start":509.06,"end":513.06,"text":"因為這個苦茶油那個原料應該是農產品的檢驗合作機"},{"start":513.06,"end":515.06,"text":"對啊就來自中國大陸"},{"start":515.06,"end":516.06,"text":"農業部的"},{"start":516.06,"end":520.06,"text":"你們要不要進行"},{"start":520.06,"end":523.06,"text":"我知道我聽你回答我就知道根本還沒進行"},{"start":523.06,"end":527.06,"text":"但我們民眾都已經知道那個苦茶籽可能來自中國大陸"},{"start":527.06,"end":529.06,"text":"但是我們這邊毫無動作"},{"start":530.06,"end":534.06,"text":"你們是否會正式請陸方共同調查"},{"start":535.06,"end":538.06,"text":"雖然我們必須在這邊"},{"start":538.06,"end":539.06,"text":"這個是在調查過程"},{"start":539.06,"end":544.06,"text":"我們並不是認定一定是他們中國大陸的原料造成的"},{"start":544.06,"end":547.06,"text":"但是現在有這個疑慮的時候"},{"start":547.06,"end":549.06,"text":"我們就要通盤啟動"},{"start":550.06,"end":551.06,"text":"對不對"},{"start":551.06,"end":553.06,"text":"依協議啟動調查"},{"start":554.06,"end":558.06,"text":"本身不是責任認定我們是在做風險管理"},{"start":558.06,"end":560.06,"text":"所以主委可以做嗎"},{"start":560.06,"end":561.06,"text":"可以"},{"start":561.06,"end":562.06,"text":"陸委會可以嗎"},{"start":562.06,"end":565.06,"text":"我們會來問主管機關農業部"},{"start":565.06,"end":567.06,"text":"因為其實目前為止他們有跟我們"},{"start":567.06,"end":570.06,"text":"有任何的請求"},{"start":570.06,"end":571.06,"text":"或是說請我們來合作"},{"start":571.06,"end":572.06,"text":"你說誰沒有跟你們請求"},{"start":572.06,"end":576.06,"text":"農業部針對你剛剛提到的可能有出現問題的原料"},{"start":576.06,"end":580.06,"text":"所以你在這邊就證明了這個食安問題"},{"start":580.06,"end":584.06,"text":"尤其這個毒油風暴延燒了一個月了"},{"start":584.06,"end":588.06,"text":"結果政府的態度還是拖拖拉拉"},{"start":588.06,"end":589.06,"text":"你在這邊證明啊"},{"start":589.06,"end":591.06,"text":"對啊農業部也沒找你們"},{"start":591.06,"end":595.06,"text":"你們看到好像疑似新聞大概都有報導"},{"start":595.06,"end":596.06,"text":"連我們都看到了"},{"start":596.06,"end":598.06,"text":"可能是中國大陸來的"},{"start":598.06,"end":601.06,"text":"你們也是沒有主動積極的查"},{"start":601.06,"end":602.06,"text":"我想因為時間關係"},{"start":602.06,"end":604.06,"text":"我也不想浪費大家時間"},{"start":605.06,"end":606.06,"text":"耽誤大家時間"},{"start":606.06,"end":610.06,"text":"所以主委我們建立跨境食安的治理"},{"start":610.06,"end":612.06,"text":"絕對不是等事件發生"},{"start":612.06,"end":614.06,"text":"因為今天可能有苦茶油"},{"start":614.06,"end":618.06,"text":"明天可能是茶葉芝麻花生中藥材等等等"},{"start":618.06,"end":623.06,"text":"所以我們比較想知道的是我們的政府到底有沒有能力"},{"start":623.06,"end":625.06,"text":"在第一時間追到源頭"},{"start":625.06,"end":626.06,"text":"查明真相"},{"start":626.06,"end":631.06,"text":"這些農產品原物料"},{"start":631.06,"end":633.06,"text":"有造成食安問題"},{"start":633.06,"end":640.06,"text":"我們就是希望陸委會能夠積極善用海峽兩岸食品安全協議"},{"start":640.06,"end":646.06,"text":"還有海峽兩岸農產品檢驗合作協議"},{"start":646.06,"end":652.06,"text":"把兩岸既有的機制制度運用在保障人民健康"},{"start":652.06,"end":653.06,"text":"不是等到事件"},{"start":653.06,"end":655.06,"text":"這次是事件發生了"},{"start":655.06,"end":656.06,"text":"你們都還沒動"},{"start":656.06,"end":660.06,"text":"但我們要求的是你們應該更積極"},{"start":660.06,"end":663.06,"text":"不是等到事件結束你才回頭檢討"},{"start":663.06,"end":667.06,"text":"所以最後本席要說是我們的食品安全沒有藍綠"},{"start":667.06,"end":668.06,"text":"對不對"},{"start":668.06,"end":669.06,"text":"大家每天都在吃"},{"start":669.06,"end":671.06,"text":"你吃到毒油"},{"start":671.06,"end":672.06,"text":"我也吃到毒油"},{"start":672.06,"end":675.06,"text":"我們也絕對不要兩岸對立"},{"start":675.06,"end":677.06,"text":"我們食品安全只有共同一個目標"},{"start":677.06,"end":680.06,"text":"就是要讓人民吃得安心吃得安全"},{"start":680.06,"end":683.06,"text":"請陸委會加油一點好嗎"},{"start":683.06,"end":684.06,"text":"謝謝許委員"},{"start":684.06,"end":685.06,"text":"我們祝福主在"},{"start":685.06,"end":686.06,"text":"謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}