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謝謝主席喔 是不是請我們這個部長 呃 院長"},{"start":7.640000000000001,"end":10.88,"text":"呃 不 秘書長 請秘書長 來 請吳高秘書長"},{"start":16.88,"end":18.38,"text":"吳院長"},{"start":18.38,"end":22.740000000000002,"text":"秘書長早齁 你們提出這個法院組織法"},{"start":22.740000000000002,"end":27.66,"text":"還有這個行政法院組織法等啦 調文的修正"},{"start":27.82,"end":33.14,"text":"對外說是要提高這個書記官法警長 副法警長的職務列等"},{"start":33.14,"end":35.94,"text":"提高他們的待遇 保障他們啦齁"},{"start":35.94,"end":39.14,"text":"那也要明確化法警辦理職務的內容"},{"start":39.14,"end":44.64,"text":"但是呢 呃 在這一包修法當中 卻夾帶了一條"},{"start":44.64,"end":49.620000000000005,"text":"現在還沒有復圍 然後也沒有完成一讀"},{"start":49.620000000000005,"end":53.120000000000005,"text":"然後你今天的報告就已經寫出來了齁"},{"start":53.12,"end":60.12,"text":"就是跟書記官法警都無關的 藐視法官的命令的修法"},{"start":60.12,"end":62.12,"text":"你知道吧"},{"start":62.12,"end":69.12,"text":"我們在那個組織法裡面 就 就修正草案都放在裡面啦"},{"start":69.12,"end":70.12,"text":"蛤"},{"start":70.12,"end":77.12,"text":"95條就關於這個 因為法官他會發 就是95條的修正"},{"start":77.12,"end":80.12,"text":"就是要維持法庭秩序啊 這沒有夾帶啊"},{"start":80.12,"end":84.12,"text":"你現在這樣說什麼 你現在還沒完成一讀 也沒有復圍"},{"start":84.12,"end":85.12,"text":"沒有啊"},{"start":85.12,"end":89.12,"text":"8月3號才送進來 連一讀都還沒有 你就已經說明了"},{"start":89.12,"end":94.12,"text":"但這不程序 程序上不是重點啦 我不是要跟你談這個"},{"start":94.12,"end":101.12,"text":"你們都認為理所當然的事情喔 這個我們都不一定認為是理所當然啦"},{"start":101.12,"end":107.12,"text":"我要請教你喔 秘書長 大法官這個憲判 這個是不是宣告"},{"start":107.12,"end":113.12,"text":"法案第140條 侮辱公務員罪部分違憲 有沒有"},{"start":113.12,"end":116.12,"text":"這是很大的判決喔"},{"start":116.12,"end":117.12,"text":"對對"},{"start":117.12,"end":120.12,"text":"好 它怎麼判呢"},{"start":120.12,"end":125.12,"text":"113年憲判第5號說 關於侮辱公務員罪的部分啊"},{"start":125.12,"end":131.12,"text":"應限縮於行為人對公務員的當場侮辱行為"},{"start":131.12,"end":134.12,"text":"是基於妨礙公務的主觀目的"},{"start":134.12,"end":139.12,"text":"而且要足以影響公務員執行公務的情形"},{"start":139.12,"end":145.12,"text":"在這個範圍裡面 十語憲法第11條保障言論自由的意旨無違"},{"start":145.12,"end":151.12,"text":"這是大府憲說了 這個侮辱公務員罪的構成要件喔"},{"start":151.12,"end":153.12,"text":"必須要很嚴謹喔"},{"start":153.12,"end":157.12,"text":"那我現在跟你講喔 秘書長 一般公務員被侮辱啊"},{"start":157.12,"end":160.12,"text":"必須對方是主觀上我就是故意要妨礙你"},{"start":160.12,"end":162.12,"text":"而且造成了妨礙"},{"start":162.12,"end":164.12,"text":"而且我就是要侮辱你"},{"start":164.12,"end":167.12,"text":"而且造成妨礙才會構成犯罪喔"},{"start":167.12,"end":170.12,"text":"那你們現在的提出 現行的"},{"start":170.12,"end":172.12,"text":"不要說你提出的修正喔"},{"start":172.12,"end":179.12,"text":"法院組織法第95條規定要構成這個犯罪喔"},{"start":179.12,"end":183.12,"text":"刑責伺候喔 它的構成要件是什麼"},{"start":183.12,"end":188.12,"text":"跟委員報告 第一個 那個吳宗憲委員他的草案裡面就有這一條"},{"start":188.12,"end":190.12,"text":"我管他吳宗憲 我再問你啦"},{"start":190.12,"end":194.12,"text":"你直接回答我法院組織法第95條"},{"start":194.12,"end":199.12,"text":"現在的構成要件的這個行為是什麼"},{"start":199.12,"end":206.12,"text":"喔 現行 對 現行是自妨害法院執行職務 經制止不聽"},{"start":206.12,"end":212.12,"text":"好 經制止不聽 妨礙職務 我們都講罪行法定主義啦"},{"start":212.12,"end":215.12,"text":"妨礙職務的範圍可就廣啦"},{"start":215.12,"end":221.12,"text":"但經制止不聽的要件喔 我個人相當不同意現行的法律"},{"start":221.12,"end":230.12,"text":"這個白話文就講說 你在這裡吵啦 鬧啦 然後法官兩次叫你不要亂了"},{"start":230.12,"end":235.12,"text":"你還在這裡大聲繼續講話 你就有罪了 刑責伺候"},{"start":235.12,"end":240.12,"text":"大聲說話 剛剛李佩妮裡面說 朱學公請大家保持安靜"},{"start":240.12,"end":246.12,"text":"大家繼續不安靜 好 抓去關 馬上就起訴"},{"start":246.12,"end":249.12,"text":"如果是這樣子可以嗎"},{"start":249.12,"end":253.12,"text":"所以就是因為基於現行法這樣的規定"},{"start":253.12,"end":259.12,"text":"對於法官他在這個維持法庭秩序 老實說 如委員所說的"},{"start":259.12,"end":262.12,"text":"會有很多考慮 要馬上進行者"},{"start":262.12,"end":266.12,"text":"所以我們才希望 就如同吳宗憲委員所提出來的"},{"start":266.12,"end":270.12,"text":"先讓他用行政法 就是這個目的"},{"start":270.12,"end":276.12,"text":"現在你所主張的 現行的法律就是這樣直接行者伺候"},{"start":276.12,"end":280.12,"text":"你現在說 好 我現在先給你行政法"},{"start":280.12,"end":285.12,"text":"你還是不聽 第二次再犯的話 我就給你行法"},{"start":285.12,"end":291.12,"text":"現在你把經制止不聽 直接就拿掉了"},{"start":291.12,"end":294.12,"text":"你們號稱說要先行政法 可是不是喔"},{"start":294.12,"end":297.12,"text":"他現在是經制止不聽 直接拿掉"},{"start":297.12,"end":302.12,"text":"只要我認定你妨礙這個職務 你直接就處罰了 罰錢了"},{"start":302.12,"end":305.12,"text":"直接喔 沒有制止不聽喔"},{"start":305.12,"end":309.12,"text":"然後第二次再犯 直接就行者伺候"},{"start":309.12,"end":313.12,"text":"你說這是先行政後 行法"},{"start":313.12,"end":317.12,"text":"不是咧 你連制止不聽這個要件都拿掉了"},{"start":317.12,"end":320.12,"text":"所以我舉一個例子好了"},{"start":320.12,"end":323.12,"text":"如果法庭開庭的時候 法官說"},{"start":323.12,"end":326.12,"text":"你們雙方不要在那裡爭執了"},{"start":326.12,"end":329.12,"text":"等到辯論的時候再說好了"},{"start":329.12,"end":333.12,"text":"結果當事人大家很容易 雙方繼續爭執"},{"start":333.12,"end":337.12,"text":"這樣子是不是就構成了 維持法庭秩序之命令"},{"start":337.12,"end":342.12,"text":"制妨礙法院執行職務 也不需要經制止不聽了"},{"start":342.12,"end":345.12,"text":"直接就罰錢了 第二次再不聽"},{"start":345.12,"end":347.12,"text":"然後就直接抓去關了"},{"start":347.12,"end":349.12,"text":"所以在法庭裡面是不是只能夠"},{"start":349.12,"end":352.12,"text":"唯唯諾諾 生怕多講幾句話"},{"start":352.12,"end":355.12,"text":"就被認為是妨礙執行職務了呢"},{"start":355.12,"end":359.12,"text":"跟委員報告 當一位法官他會要講說"},{"start":359.12,"end":362.12,"text":"你要維持法庭秩序 如同委員所說的"},{"start":362.12,"end":365.12,"text":"一定雙方爭執很嚴重"},{"start":365.12,"end":368.12,"text":"法官為了維持法庭秩序一定會跟他說"},{"start":368.12,"end":370.12,"text":"好 大家照順序說"},{"start":370.12,"end":372.12,"text":"其實他的命令就是這樣子"},{"start":372.12,"end":374.12,"text":"你講得太簡短了"},{"start":378.12,"end":384.12,"text":"你講得好像是必須要 好像很喧鬧什麼的"},{"start":384.12,"end":386.12,"text":"我舉三個例子給你聽"},{"start":386.12,"end":390.12,"text":"我講三個實例給你聽 你來聽聽看"},{"start":390.12,"end":394.12,"text":"抱歉 主席 那個等我一下下"},{"start":394.12,"end":410.12,"text":"來 這個被告在檢察官對於這個"},{"start":410.12,"end":413.12,"text":"證人進行反結問時"},{"start":413.12,"end":416.12,"text":"抱歉 我這樣講好了 這樣字太小了"},{"start":419.12,"end":423.12,"text":"我們去搜尋過很多的這個判例"},{"start":423.12,"end":427.12,"text":"曾經有一個就是被告打斷證人發言"},{"start":427.12,"end":432.12,"text":"然後就被法院用這一條判拘役二十天"},{"start":433.12,"end":435.12,"text":"如果這個放在立法院"},{"start":435.12,"end":438.12,"text":"官員被尋的時候 立委在講話"},{"start":438.12,"end":441.12,"text":"官員打斷立委的提問 官員就要被判刑"},{"start":441.12,"end":443.12,"text":"你覺得如何"},{"start":443.12,"end":446.12,"text":"就是說證人在發言"},{"start":446.12,"end":449.12,"text":"然後他被告就說 你這樣講講的錯誤"},{"start":449.12,"end":451.12,"text":"因為我不是那樣子"},{"start":451.12,"end":454.12,"text":"他就被起訴了 判二十天"},{"start":454.12,"end":458.12,"text":"然後過去還發生過被告在法庭上大聲發言幾次"},{"start":458.12,"end":462.12,"text":"然後法院就說 你這樣子起訴"},{"start":462.12,"end":465.12,"text":"放在立法院的話就是說"},{"start":465.12,"end":468.12,"text":"官員大聲的回答立委的提問 就要被判刑"},{"start":468.12,"end":471.12,"text":"他是判拘役三十天"},{"start":471.12,"end":473.12,"text":"這個都有判例的"},{"start":473.12,"end":475.12,"text":"那你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":475.12,"end":478.12,"text":"一個是地方法院96年檢上至第396號"},{"start":478.12,"end":481.12,"text":"一個是96年抑制第2310號"},{"start":481.12,"end":483.12,"text":"過去還曾經發生這樣"},{"start":483.12,"end":485.12,"text":"在刑事庭開庭的時候"},{"start":485.12,"end":488.12,"text":"跟公訴檢察官相悶"},{"start":488.12,"end":491.12,"text":"他說檢察官你陳述的內容不實"},{"start":491.12,"end":494.12,"text":"你再這樣不實的話 我要告你"},{"start":494.12,"end":498.12,"text":"然後你講的不對 我要告你"},{"start":498.12,"end":500.12,"text":"然後就這樣講了 然後就被起訴了"},{"start":500.12,"end":502.12,"text":"然後就被起訴了"},{"start":502.12,"end":505.12,"text":"然後呢 最後判決無罪"},{"start":506.12,"end":507.12,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":507.12,"end":509.12,"text":"我們對委員現在講的實例一下子"},{"start":509.12,"end":512.12,"text":"我也沒辦法很具體"},{"start":512.12,"end":513.12,"text":"我知道啦"},{"start":513.12,"end":518.12,"text":"可是我相信在整個法官他要起訴這時候"},{"start":518.12,"end":521.12,"text":"絕對在現場的時候一定跟他說"},{"start":521.12,"end":523.12,"text":"你不要再說了 太吵了"},{"start":523.12,"end":526.12,"text":"有現行的法律叫做經制止不聽"},{"start":526.12,"end":529.12,"text":"但未來是連經制止不聽都不需要"},{"start":529.12,"end":531.12,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":531.12,"end":534.12,"text":"其實經制止不聽一定就是在"},{"start":534.12,"end":538.12,"text":"他在發這個違庭法庭秩序"},{"start":538.12,"end":541.12,"text":"法官你講 你不要說了"},{"start":541.12,"end":542.12,"text":"你不要說了"},{"start":542.12,"end":544.12,"text":"沒有啦 也沒有一定"},{"start":544.12,"end":547.12,"text":"你不要說 你不要說就要抓去關嗎"},{"start":547.12,"end":549.12,"text":"你不要說了 你不要說了"},{"start":549.12,"end":551.12,"text":"結果繼續說就要抓去關嗎"},{"start":551.12,"end":553.12,"text":"拜託 報告委員"},{"start":553.12,"end":556.12,"text":"我老實說 跟他說你不要再說了"},{"start":556.12,"end":559.12,"text":"你的法院組織法第88條"},{"start":559.12,"end":561.12,"text":"89條 91條"},{"start":561.12,"end":563.12,"text":"你們還有其他手段的方法"},{"start":563.12,"end":565.12,"text":"可以掛出去嗎"},{"start":565.12,"end":569.12,"text":"可以掛出去嗎"},{"start":569.12,"end":571.12,"text":"敢出去以後"},{"start":571.12,"end":572.12,"text":"你不是沒有手段"},{"start":572.12,"end":574.12,"text":"刑責作為最後手段"},{"start":574.12,"end":576.12,"text":"這個是最重要的"},{"start":576.12,"end":579.12,"text":"只要你不要再說了就抓去關"},{"start":579.12,"end":581.12,"text":"就判刑"},{"start":581.12,"end":582.12,"text":"這樣對嗎"},{"start":582.12,"end":583.12,"text":"我相信個案"},{"start":583.12,"end":585.12,"text":"你相信我就跟你講"},{"start":585.12,"end":586.12,"text":"來"},{"start":586.12,"end":588.12,"text":"我把插回去我再來跟委員報告"},{"start":588.12,"end":590.12,"text":"你們"},{"start":590.12,"end":592.12,"text":"認為說"},{"start":592.12,"end":595.12,"text":"這個司法院改成先行政後刑責"},{"start":595.12,"end":597.12,"text":"然後把門檻降低"},{"start":597.12,"end":599.12,"text":"把處罰的門檻降低"},{"start":599.12,"end":603.12,"text":"動輒得救 罰錢抓去關"},{"start":604.12,"end":607.12,"text":"為什麼你們要這樣子呢"},{"start":607.12,"end":611.12,"text":"來 如果當事人構成侮辱公務員罪"},{"start":611.12,"end":613.12,"text":"他來的那些侮辱公務員"},{"start":613.12,"end":616.12,"text":"刑法140條可以處理"},{"start":616.12,"end":618.12,"text":"你們大法官憲判"},{"start":618.12,"end":621.12,"text":"113年憲判自第5號處理"},{"start":621.12,"end":624.12,"text":"如果他的行為不是侮辱公務員"},{"start":624.12,"end":626.12,"text":"只是講話大聲"},{"start":626.12,"end":627.12,"text":"干擾秩序"},{"start":627.12,"end":629.12,"text":"你就要抓去關"},{"start":629.12,"end":630.12,"text":"沒合理"},{"start":630.12,"end":634.12,"text":"你們憲判大法官的憲判"},{"start":634.12,"end":636.12,"text":"限縮了侮辱公務員罪"},{"start":636.12,"end":638.12,"text":"要求一般公務人員"},{"start":638.12,"end":640.12,"text":"要忍受侮辱行為"},{"start":640.12,"end":643.12,"text":"結果你們的司法院今天修法"},{"start":643.12,"end":645.12,"text":"卻毒後法官"},{"start":645.12,"end":647.12,"text":"要求大家都不能違反法官"},{"start":647.12,"end":649.12,"text":"在法庭上的命令"},{"start":649.12,"end":651.12,"text":"否則不是罰錢就是判刑"},{"start":651.12,"end":654.12,"text":"你們這種法官高高在上"},{"start":654.12,"end":656.12,"text":"只許你們州官放火"},{"start":656.12,"end":658.12,"text":"法官不能夠被侮辱"},{"start":658.12,"end":661.12,"text":"但是一般公務員要被侮辱"},{"start":661.12,"end":664.12,"text":"限縮了一般公務員的侮辱公務員罪"},{"start":664.12,"end":666.12,"text":"結果你降低了"},{"start":666.12,"end":670.12,"text":"在法院裡面不聽法官制止的門檻"},{"start":670.12,"end":672.12,"text":"所以國際法官說"},{"start":672.12,"end":673.12,"text":"見官矮三節"},{"start":673.12,"end":675.12,"text":"你們法院認為說"},{"start":675.12,"end":677.12,"text":"司法院認為說"},{"start":677.12,"end":679.12,"text":"你們來的都矮我三節"},{"start":679.12,"end":681.12,"text":"都要聽我的"},{"start":681.12,"end":683.12,"text":"你們這種高高在上"},{"start":683.12,"end":686.12,"text":"只能夠大家比你們位置還要低"},{"start":686.12,"end":689.12,"text":"都要聽你們的這種態度才有問題"},{"start":689.12,"end":692.12,"text":"所以95條的修法"},{"start":692.12,"end":695.12,"text":"不是降低處罰的門檻"},{"start":695.12,"end":697.12,"text":"動輒就罰錢抓去關"},{"start":697.12,"end":700.12,"text":"而是應該要刪除"},{"start":700.12,"end":701.12,"text":"要刪除"},{"start":701.12,"end":703.12,"text":"我問你喔"},{"start":703.12,"end":704.12,"text":"這個同樣的情形"},{"start":704.12,"end":707.12,"text":"在檢察官偵查庭的時候"},{"start":707.12,"end":709.12,"text":"不會發生同樣的困擾嗎"},{"start":709.12,"end":711.12,"text":"蛤"},{"start":711.12,"end":714.12,"text":"相同的情形如果發生在其他行政機關"},{"start":714.12,"end":716.12,"text":"怎麼處理"},{"start":716.12,"end":719.12,"text":"你們就動輒把人家抓去關罰錢"},{"start":719.12,"end":722.12,"text":"請問一下偵查庭不會嗎"},{"start":722.12,"end":725.12,"text":"干擾辦公干擾公務員"},{"start":725.12,"end":729.12,"text":"辦公的罪責不是應該相當一次嗎"},{"start":729.12,"end":732.12,"text":"憑什麼司法院叫高人一等"},{"start":732.12,"end":734.12,"text":"民眾在監察庭開庭的時候"},{"start":734.12,"end":736.12,"text":"不會發生一樣的情形嗎"},{"start":736.12,"end":738.12,"text":"檢察官在問醫"},{"start":738.12,"end":739.12,"text":"要就變成說"},{"start":739.12,"end":741.12,"text":"不是這樣就差話不會嗎"},{"start":741.12,"end":742.12,"text":"會啊"},{"start":742.12,"end":744.12,"text":"不會大聲嚷嚷嗎"},{"start":744.12,"end":745.12,"text":"會啊"},{"start":745.12,"end":747.12,"text":"檢察官開偵查庭"},{"start":747.12,"end":749.12,"text":"也可以發生同樣的情形"},{"start":749.12,"end":752.12,"text":"但數十年來地檢署從來沒有"},{"start":752.12,"end":755.12,"text":"適用過法院組織法第95條"},{"start":756.12,"end":759.12,"text":"滋擾妨礙秩序執行職務"},{"start":759.12,"end":763.12,"text":"檢察官開偵查庭一樣會碰到"},{"start":763.12,"end":764.12,"text":"為什麼"},{"start":764.12,"end":766.12,"text":"他們可以繼續執法"},{"start":766.12,"end":768.12,"text":"為什麼可以繼續辦公可以偵查"},{"start":768.12,"end":770.12,"text":"你們就不行"},{"start":770.12,"end":773.12,"text":"你們就偏偏要高人一等"},{"start":773.12,"end":776.12,"text":"為什麼你們需要使用封建社會那種"},{"start":776.12,"end":779.12,"text":"高高在上唯我獨尊權力獨大的"},{"start":779.12,"end":784.12,"text":"見官矮三截的這一種法條還存在"},{"start":784.12,"end":786.12,"text":"社會秩序維護法有沒有東西"},{"start":786.12,"end":788.12,"text":"有沒有工具可以使用"},{"start":788.12,"end":789.12,"text":"好"},{"start":789.12,"end":791.12,"text":"有沒有社會秩序維護法"},{"start":791.12,"end":792.12,"text":"來"},{"start":792.12,"end":794.12,"text":"社會秩序維護法"},{"start":794.12,"end":797.12,"text":"在公共場所口角紛爭"},{"start":797.12,"end":800.12,"text":"宣法知識不聽勸職者"},{"start":800.12,"end":802.12,"text":"罰六千"},{"start":802.12,"end":804.12,"text":"社會秩序維護法第85條"},{"start":804.12,"end":806.12,"text":"公務員依法執行職務"},{"start":806.12,"end":809.12,"text":"以顯然不相當的言詞或行動相加"},{"start":809.12,"end":811.12,"text":"善未達強暴脅迫侮辱的程度"},{"start":811.12,"end":812.12,"text":"或者是"},{"start":812.12,"end":814.12,"text":"在公務員依法執行職務時"},{"start":814.12,"end":817.12,"text":"具重宣法自妨害公務者罰一萬兩千二"},{"start":817.12,"end":820.12,"text":"都不需要你在法院組織法裡面"},{"start":820.12,"end":822.12,"text":"架構這個法律"},{"start":822.12,"end":824.12,"text":"你們的法院組織法"},{"start":824.12,"end":827.12,"text":"888991審判長"},{"start":827.12,"end":829.12,"text":"可以命他們抓出去"},{"start":829.12,"end":832.12,"text":"退出去不准他進來"},{"start":832.12,"end":833.12,"text":"通通都可以"},{"start":833.12,"end":835.12,"text":"可以叫法警把他抓出去"},{"start":835.12,"end":838.12,"text":"你還需要多嚴苛的法律"},{"start":838.12,"end":839.12,"text":"所以在這裡"},{"start":839.12,"end":840.12,"text":"所以在這裡"},{"start":840.12,"end":842.12,"text":"我們再問你第二個"},{"start":843.12,"end":845.12,"text":"第二個"},{"start":845.12,"end":847.12,"te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