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-05T11:13:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:21.600000+08:00","text":"沒有，我想范雲委員是本委員會的委員，所以我可以尊重……","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:23.882353+08:00","text":"所以本委員的委員應該通常時間更長吧？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:24.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:24.833333+08:00","text":"是的，沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:26.846154+08:00","text":"所以10分鐘之後可以再延長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:26.846154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:27.846154+08:00","text":"好，收到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:27.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:38.750000+08:00","text":"我是對林淑芬委員有給他特別的優惠，就是比照本委員會的發言時間，但是他今天發言時間真的超出太多了。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:39.250000+08:00","text":"了解，謝謝。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:40.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:40.500000+08:00","text":"麻煩，謝謝。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:41.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:42.777778+08:00","text":"有請高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:45.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:46.714286+08:00","text":"請高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:51.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:52.666667+08:00","text":"高秘書長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:53.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:13:58.666667+08:00","text":"對於CRPD國內法化已經滿12年這一塊，您了不了解呢？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:13:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:04.875000+08:00","text":"關於這部分，因為我真的沒有從事少家業務，我請少家廳來向你做詳細說明。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:06.833333+08:00","text":"這個應該不只是少家廳吧？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:10+08:00","text":"對，還包括我們行政廳，都有。都有？對。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:12.833333+08:00","text":"所以秘書長不是很了解？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:12.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:13.833333+08:00","text":"針對細節部分，我沒辦法了解及說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:14.600000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:15.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:18.333333+08:00","text":"我就稍微解釋一下，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:19.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:40.800000+08:00","text":"CRPD是在馬總統任內簽署的，當時在國會裡的民進黨是少數，當然也全力支持，所以當時國會是不分黨派，就把CRPD國內法化。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:44.777778+08:00","text":"裡面有提到合理調整，合理調整是什麼意思？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:14:48.818182+08:00","text":"它是身心障礙者非常重要人權的一部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:14:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:15:32.600000+08:00","text":"它指「根據具體需要，於不造成過度或不當負擔之情況下，進行必要及適當之修改與調整，以確保身心障礙者在與其他人平等基礎上享有或行使所有人權及基本自由」，也就是它是搭配我們一般的無障礙，因為無障礙是通案，可是有些地方可能還是會有障礙，你針對個案可以及時的處理，所以它是一個非常重要的權利，譬如在職場上，如果有合理調整的話，其實身心障礙者可以適應的工作範圍是非常廣的。","quality":0.994},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:15:33.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:15:42.750000+08:00","text":"如果高秘書長了解這點的話，我就要提到，為什麼我想要問的是您，而不是只有少家廳？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:15:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:15:50.600000+08:00","text":"主要是現在職場上合理調整的爭議，已經成為司法的新興議題了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:15:51.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:15:54.818182+08:00","text":"我們辦公室找了兩則新聞：一個是今年的；另一個是去年的。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:15:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:16:08.666667+08:00","text":"第一個新聞是臺鐵，因臺鐵未合理調整資遣身障員工，後來這位員工就去告了，法院判僱傭關係存在，如果沒有理解錯誤的話，就是臺鐵輸了。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:16:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:16:22.500000+08:00","text":"另一個新聞是竹科經理罹患漸凍症遭解僱提告，結果法官判這位身障者敗訴。","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:16:24.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:16:42.833333+08:00","text":"以我們大家所認識的陳俊翰律師，他之前是民進黨不分區候選人，只要器材及各方面協助足夠的話，其實他是可以執行工作的，所以不代表所有這些身障者都無法提供勞務。","quality":0.718},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:16:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:16:50.777778+08:00","text":"可是我們看到在司法上，當告到司法的時候，結果經常是不一樣的。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:16:51.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:17:24.555556+08:00","text":"當然您可能會說這兩個個案情況不一樣，我們現在不能這樣比較，可是我要提的是，這個真的跟司法有很大的關係，我們看一下如果雇主沒有提供障礙勞工合理調整的話，法律救濟方式是如簡報上的流程，首先依照就業服務法第五條規定，不能夠對身心障礙等身分予以歧視，所以他第一關可以到地方主管機關提出就業歧視申訴，譬如到勞工局等單位。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:17:25.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:17:36.333333+08:00","text":"在地方勞工行政主管機關有個就業歧視評議委員會，審議後會作成決議，有些在這一關就解決了，對不對？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:17:37.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:17:46.750000+08:00","text":"可是如果在這一關沒有辦法解決的話，事實上，不服決議的時候，不管是老闆或者是員工都可以再提出訴願。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:17:47.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:17:50.818182+08:00","text":"再來，我想您就非常熟悉了，行政訴訟這塊就出現了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:17:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:18:00+08:00","text":"所以司法等於是障礙者工作權的最後一道防線，秘書長對這個流程應該沒有任何疑義吧？沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:18:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:18:03+08:00","text":"這除了行政訴訟，也會有民事訴訟。對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:18:03.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:18:06.800000+08:00","text":"所以它會是重要的司法議題，這個您認同吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:18:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:18:08.500000+08:00","text":"非常認同。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:18:09.545455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:18:22.500000+08:00","text":"我現在想問的是，請問目前雇主為障礙勞工提供合理調整的義務爭議，您認為司法裁判實務上是不是已經準備好了？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:18:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:18:24.666667+08:00","text":"是不是已經穩定及成熟了？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:18:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:18:56.600000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，雖然我對於CRPD不是很熟，可是我辦的訴訟案件裡也有很多這種案件，其實法官最困難的是要認定提供合理調整的義務，就是委員所指的這個，這個一直在發展中，不是說這個議題在發展中，而是法官對於所謂合理調整義務的範圍，這種認定真的會影響到這個裁判的勝訴。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:18:57.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:19:22.600000+08:00","text":"這個我不敢說已經成熟穩定，我們是一直在提醒我們勞動法庭及行政訴訟這個區塊，法官一定要放下這些人跟我們不一樣這種想法，去增進自己對於所謂提供合理調整義務的範圍要放寬。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:19:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:19:25.444444+08:00","text":"謝謝高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:19:25.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:19:45.444444+08:00","text":"您講得很清楚，您認為現在的爭議是在於合理調整的內容是什麼，但是大家都已經知道這個是義務了，所以現在的爭議是在這個合理調整是義務，可是怎麼樣的做法可以被當成是它做了這個義務，是不是？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:19:45.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:19:47+08:00","text":"這是您的認定。是。好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:19:47.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:20:22.500000+08:00","text":"我要告訴高秘書長，貴司法體系目前並不是這樣，你看我們辦公室做的研究，在2020年你們高雄高等行政法院的判決中，他不認為合理調整是義務，而是覺得那個是「優惠性措施」，他承認有CRPD，但不認為能夠指導雇主有合理調整義務，所以他完全不理這部法，他只用勞動基準法、就業服務法等不是專為身障者制定的法。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:20:23.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:20:52.777778+08:00","text":"可是很有趣，過了一年，最高行政法院的判決又不一樣了，說這個不是什麼優惠，也不是額外的，它是實踐平等的積極義務，而且它還強調CRPD已經國內法化了，各機關都應該要符合公約保障規定，還引用了CRPD第二條及第五條，特別援引CRPD第六號一般性意見，所以兩次判決不一樣。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:20:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:00.777778+08:00","text":"請問一下，高雄高等行政法院的判決為什麼可以跟2021年最高行政法院判決不一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:01.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:02.833333+08:00","text":"所以不是秘書長講的那個狀況。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:10.666667+08:00","text":"高等行政法院是2020年，最高行政法院是2021年，所以最高行政法院就指出要這樣去思考……不是。","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:16.800000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，今天如果到高雄高等行政法院判決，我不是就比較倒楣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:18.666667+08:00","text":"我還得要繼續……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:19.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:20.600000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實我們事實審的法院……","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:25.800000+08:00","text":"為什麼不能在那裡就如同您剛剛所講就認定它是義務？對。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:26.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:44.714286+08:00","text":"所以最高行政法院已經指出了，我認為這應該是一個法律見解了，這個法律見解在事實審法院都會去重視三審的法律見解，所以在2021年就有這樣的判決，已經在改變中了。好。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:48.750000+08:00","text":"我們簽署CRPD是哪一年，您知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:48.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:53.285714+08:00","text":"2014年，是不是？對。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:53.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:21:54.714286+08:00","text":"2014年就國內法化……是啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:21:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:22:36.555556+08:00","text":"我的意思是，2020年已經過了6年，而且這個個案是，原告是位視障者，平常以行走方式進行開單工作，後來他小腿受傷，他本來視障是可以開單，但因小腿受傷，希望轉調內勤服務，結果高雄高等行政法院認定交通局沒有違反合理調整義務、沒有構成歧視，他後來就很辛苦，還要上訴到最高行政法院，結果法院就認定原審沒有仔細檢視交通局是否已經盡合理調整的義務，才將原判決廢棄發回。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:22:37.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:22:46.714286+08:00","text":"我要講的事情是，為什麼他要這麼的辛苦，如果他在2020年高雄高等行政法院所做的判決這一端就放棄了呢？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:22:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:22:54.777778+08:00","text":"我個人也納悶高雄高等行政法院為什麼沒有採最高行政法院的意見？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:22:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:07+08:00","text":"最高行政法院他就已指正了，將來關於這類案件，你的思考方向、你的法律見解方向，我相信已經指出一個非常清楚的道路了。對。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:07.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:22.866667+08:00","text":"所以您剛所講的那個，大家都認知到這是義務，只是對於合理調整內容有不同的見解，這些事情沒有發生，就拿我剛剛講2020年已經是高雄高等行政法院的判決了。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:30.750000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，不是所有判決都如同我的見解一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:32.714286+08:00","text":"沒錯，所以我才說關於合理……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:40.500000+08:00","text":"這不是你的見解，這是CRPD國內法化的法律明文規定。沒錯。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:41.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:42.714286+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:44.750000+08:00","text":"他無視於有這個法律的存在。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:44.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:45.750000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:46.800000+08:00","text":"他引用的是其他的法令。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:50.454545+08:00","text":"我不敢講他無視，他可能沒有注意……這是個案，我真的很難講它……","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:23:52.500000+08:00","text":"沒有讀過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:23:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:24:04.666667+08:00","text":"我不敢講，只是最少……關於CRPD，司法院非常重視，真的非常重視。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:24:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:24:09.333333+08:00","text":"秘書長，您說非常重視，我有一點點懷疑，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:24:09.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:24:10.833333+08:00","text":"因為您自己都不熟悉，對不對？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:24:11.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:24:12.600000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我只是……","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:24:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:24:15.857143+08:00","text":"你剛剛不是說你不熟悉，要請少家廳來說明，我有聽錯嗎？","quality":0.522},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:24:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:24:46.750000+08:00","text":"我不能夠很自誇說我熟悉，CRPD其實是落實在我們的判決裡面，尤其我們最近……委員應該有看到新聞，關於這些朋友們能夠法院近用、司法近用，我們一直在強調、一直在強調，其實我覺得這個重點是我要放在心裡、我要放在我的sense裡面、我要放在一切我的作為裡面，我講的是這個部分。好。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:24:47.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:04.833333+08:00","text":"我今天想問的是，您作為秘書長，您覺得我們如何避免再發生像高雄高等行政法院這樣的判決，根本無視CRPD這個國內法的存在，不把合理調整當成是義務，他覺得這只是個優惠措施？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:08.200000+08:00","text":"如何可以做到不要再發生？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:14.333333+08:00","text":"障礙者很辛苦了，還要再上訴到最高行政法院，才能夠……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:16.866667+08:00","text":"這個除了……當然法官一定要接受教育訓練，因為有些……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:18.800000+08:00","text":"法官應該接受教育訓練？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:18.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:19.800000+08:00","text":"一定要啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:19.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:22.636364+08:00","text":"目前教育訓練中有這個CRPD國內法化？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:23+08:00","text":"有、有、有。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:26.666667+08:00","text":"請問是幾小時？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:26.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:27.666667+08:00","text":"突然這樣問我，我沒辦法回答……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:30.777778+08:00","text":"是一輩子只上一次，還是一年會有幾小時？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:30.777778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:37+08:00","text":"我們規定法官上課時數最少是40小時，我們……","quality":0.294},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:38.800000+08:00","text":"有關這40小時課程，法官是多久上一次課？","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:41.222222+08:00","text":"整年啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:41.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:42.333333+08:00","text":"全部都要上，時間都要有……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:44.833333+08:00","text":"每位法官整年都要上40小時的課程？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:44.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:45.833333+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:45.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:48.333333+08:00","text":"這課程裡面針對CRPD的國內法有幾小時？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:50.777778+08:00","text":"我再提供資料給委員，因為我這……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:54.818182+08:00","text":"現在沒有人知道CRPD國內法課程有幾小時嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:25:58.777778+08:00","text":"負責CRPD的是我們行政廳，他們今天剛好沒有人來……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:25:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:26:00.600000+08:00","text":"剛好沒有人……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:26:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:26:02.333333+08:00","text":"可是針對這個，我可以……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:26:03.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:26:04.875000+08:00","text":"您確定目前有上CRPD國內法課程……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:26:04.875000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:26:05.875000+08:00","text":"有、有、有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:26:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:26:07+08:00","text":"只是不了解幾小時？對。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:26:07.833333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:26:08.833333+08:00","text":"這樣突然問我，我真的不了解。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:26:09.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:26:10.500000+08:00","text":"沒關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:26:11.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:26:26.714286+08:00","text":"因為我不想要超時太多，我想要講的是，近年職場合理調整爭議，真的有越來越多的判例，可是我們看不出來，為什麼它有時候認定是歧視，有時候認為不是？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:26:27.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:26:42.666667+08:00","text":"第一個，到底是不是個義務，這一層已經不是一致了，依照CRPD國內法的規定，它應該是義務；再來，這個義務之後，就像您剛講的認定標準也非常的不一。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:26:43.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:08.500000+08:00","text":"既然秘書長願意去努力，我想講的事情是，你們是不是可以先就近年累積「障礙者職場合理調整」判例進行系統性彙整及研析，並根據CRPD國內法的精神，把這些案例做成教材，再提供給法官作為研習，好嗎？","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:12.833333+08:00","text":"如果你講法律，等一下萬一上課的時候，大家太累了、打瞌睡了怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:12.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:13.833333+08:00","text":"上課的時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:13.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:20.777778+08:00","text":"至少把你們的案例做研析，哪些判決是錯的、違反CRPD的精神……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:20.777778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:21.777778+08:00","text":"這一定可以做到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:22.333333+08:00","text":"哪些是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:23.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:24.818182+08:00","text":"並且讓大家了解合理調整……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:24.818182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:25.818182+08:00","text":"從實例中去學習，這是我們會去做的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:30.714286+08:00","text":"依照我們的CRPD，不是優惠性的措施，它已經是義務了，好嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:30.714286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:32.200000+08:00","text":"這一定可以做到。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:32.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:34.818182+08:00","text":"針對這個做法，你們多久內可以給我一份報告呢？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:38.866667+08:00","text":"你不一定要做完，是預計要怎麼做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:40.714286+08:00","text":"多久內可以做完？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:42.894737+08:00","text":"如果是簡單報告當然很快，可是我們要做系統性的彙整，可不可以給我們1個月時間？","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:44.500000+08:00","text":"好，1個月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:48+08:00","text":"至少把你們的計畫要怎麼做讓我知道，好嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:48+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:49+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:50.600000+08:00","text":"謝謝秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:50.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:51.600000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:52.500000+08:00","text":"好，我會繼續監督。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:53+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:27:55+08:00","text":"好，謝謝范雲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:27:55.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:28:01.585714+08:00","text":"今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:28:01.885714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:28:12.171429+08:00","text":"委員質詢時，要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:28:12.471429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:28:23.042857+08:00","text":"委員蔡其昌、傅崐萁、許宇甄等所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}