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12:12:19","會議時間":"2026-08-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院食品安全辦公室、教育部、國防部、經濟部、台灣糖業股份有限公司及行政院消費者保護處就「從致癌油事件發展迄今，中央一味『蓋牌、吃案、當門神』有關行政究責之重做完整調查報告(含台糖失職、食安警訊斷鏈責任、團體訴訟求償進度)及未來如何確保安全無虞的國軍團膳、學生營養午餐」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午2時30分起，若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、審查行政院函請審議「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員郭國文等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員李彥秀等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員羅智強等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、審查委員盧縣一等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十、審查委員王育敏等25人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十一、審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十二、審查委員林月琴等24人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十三、審查委員林淑芬等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十五、審查委員李坤城等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十六、審查委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十七、審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第二十至二十二案，如經復議則不予審查；第一案及第二十三至三十七案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":22.33971875,"end":24.70221875,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":24.870968750000003,"end":25.74846875,"speaker_score":0.966},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":30.102218750000002,"end":31.87409375,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":32.650343750000005,"end":49.77846875,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":49.710968750000006,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":50.048468750000005,"end":55.02659375,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":55.27971875,"end":56.798468750000005,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":57.99659375,"end":58.992218750000006,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":58.09784375,"end":58.45221875,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":59.56596875,"end":59.58284375,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":59.58284375,"end":59.59971875,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":59.59971875,"end":59.88659375,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":59.88659375,"end":62.11409375,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":61.742843750000006,"end":63.26159375,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":63.244718750000004,"end":64.64534375000001,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":63.80159375,"end":67.93596875,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":65.10096875,"end":65.97846875,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":68.20596875000001,"end":72.01971875000001,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":70.75409375000001,"end":71.81721875000001,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":72.01971875000001,"end":72.03659375000001,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":72.03659375000001,"end":74.02784375,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":72.10409375,"end":72.50909375,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":74.02784375,"end":76.71096875,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":77.33534375,"end":78.78659375000001,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":79.25909375,"end":83.74784375,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":81.11534375000001,"end":82.09409375,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":83.74784375,"end":85.57034375,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":87.00471875000001,"end":87.24096875000001,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":87.96659375,"end":88.50659375000001,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":92.03346875000001,"end":92.05034375000001,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":92.05034375000001,"end":93.45096875,"speaker_score":0.96},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":94.14284375000001,"end":96.03284375000001,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":97.70346875,"end":102.63096875000001,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":104.57159375,"end":105.98909375000001,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":106.56284375000001,"end":109.58346875000001,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":110.41034375000001,"end":113.81909375000001,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":113.51534375000001,"end":114.67971875,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":114.17346875000001,"end":116.75534375000001,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":116.06346875000001,"end":117.43034375,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":118.15596875000001,"end":120.41721875,"speaker_score":0.844},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":119.28659375000001,"end":120.60284375,"speaker_score":0.925},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":122.08784375,"end":123.43784375000001,"spea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ppb這麼嚴格的油脂的"},{"start":201.8,"end":203.8,"text":"我們歐盟韓國都是"},{"start":203.8,"end":207.8,"text":"所以韓國跟歐盟呢針對這個油品違規的時候"},{"start":207.8,"end":208.8,"text":"也是下架到第一層"},{"start":208.8,"end":211.8,"text":"針對第二層是否要下架判斷的基準"},{"start":211.8,"end":217.8,"text":"其實跟我們面對的這個扁平坪8.1 ppb的標準是一致的"},{"start":217.8,"end":219.8,"text":"所以底下產品是什麼樣子"},{"start":219.8,"end":221.8,"text":"所以才會出現20%"},{"start":221.8,"end":223.8,"text":"20%是什麼專家這一場還是"},{"start":223.8,"end":226.8,"text":"在專家會議這場裡面針對這個內容"},{"start":226.8,"end":228.8,"text":"做了非常完整的討論之後"},{"start":228.8,"end":230.8,"text":"因為第一層下架之後"},{"start":230.8,"end":233.8,"text":"有沒有可能會沒有涵蓋到"},{"start":233.8,"end":236.8,"text":"超過我們所謂的2 ppb的一個概念"},{"start":236.8,"end":238.8,"text":"所以大家開始在討論的時候"},{"start":238.8,"end":241.8,"text":"許多專家提到的確在2 ppb裡面"},{"start":241.8,"end":245.8,"text":"如果用的油脂的反應是超過20%"},{"start":245.8,"end":246.8,"text":"如果用的油脂的反應是超過20%"},{"start":246.8,"end":251.8,"text":"石廖署你邀請14個食品產業相關公會的這一場"},{"start":251.8,"end":254.8,"text":"新聞稿說召開這場的會議是為了"},{"start":254.8,"end":258.8,"text":"降低事件對消費者及下游業者的影響"},{"start":258.8,"end":261.8,"text":"那你們邀請了14個食品產業公會協會"},{"start":261.8,"end":263.8,"text":"代表下游業者"},{"start":263.8,"end":265.8,"text":"跟委員說報告一下這件事情"},{"start":265.8,"end":267.8,"text":"是不是你不要講那麼複雜"},{"start":267.8,"end":270.8,"text":"我說這個這麼14個產業裡面"},{"start":270.8,"end":272.8,"text":"相對都食品相關產業"},{"start":272.8,"end":274.8,"text":"我們先對的油品世界裡面"},{"start":274.8,"end":276.8,"text":"一定會對產業的衝擊"},{"start":276.8,"end":279.8,"text":"我們說明我們現在第一層下架"},{"start":279.8,"end":282.8,"text":"以及剛才講20%可能會成為我們建議部的"},{"start":282.8,"end":284.8,"text":"你先我不是要問你這個"},{"start":284.8,"end":285.8,"text":"你不要亂講"},{"start":285.8,"end":287.8,"text":"我現在問你你回答就好"},{"start":287.8,"end":291.8,"text":"那代表下游業者請問代表消費者的是誰"},{"start":291.8,"end":292.8,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":292.8,"end":300.8,"text":"我要把14個公協會協會來嘛"},{"start":300.8,"end":303.8,"text":"那這些都是食品公會啊"},{"start":303.8,"end":305.8,"text":"代表消費者是誰"},{"start":305.8,"end":306.8,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":306.8,"end":308.8,"text":"我這邊要回去再確認一下"},{"start":308.8,"end":310.8,"text":"可能消費者的溝通我們可能"},{"start":310.8,"end":311.8,"text":"我來問你好了啦"},{"start":311.8,"end":313.8,"text":"一個一個問啦"},{"start":315.8,"end":321.8,"text":"這個台灣植物油製電工業同業公會有去嗎"},{"start":321.8,"end":323.8,"text":"我預想中是有的"},{"start":323.8,"end":324.8,"text":"好"},{"start":324.8,"end":328.8,"text":"那台灣烘焙油紙工業同業公會有去嗎"},{"start":328.8,"end":331.8,"text":"我這邊可不可以請我們同仁們來14個"},{"start":331.8,"end":333.8,"text":"待會唸給委員們聽一下"},{"start":333.8,"end":336.8,"text":"確定一下那個整個14個"},{"start":336.8,"end":337.8,"text":"好啦這邊歸一歸啦"},{"start":337.8,"end":338.8,"text":"我這邊有資料"},{"start":338.8,"end":340.8,"text":"請你拿過去再勾一下"},{"start":341.8,"end":343.8,"text":"我繼續問啦他們勾他們的"},{"start":345.8,"end":347.8,"text":"那你現在我跟你講"},{"start":347.8,"end":351.8,"text":"就是說你們把這個公協會找去"},{"start":351.8,"end":353.8,"text":"消費者又把它放一邊"},{"start":353.8,"end":357.8,"text":"那這些公會他們是討論他們是業者的"},{"start":357.8,"end":360.8,"text":"讓業者的損失怎麼樣降到最低是嗎"},{"start":360.8,"end":361.8,"text":"不是這個"},{"start":361.8,"end":364.8,"text":"還是把消費者當作白老鼠"},{"start":364.8,"end":366.8,"text":"反正他們幾家14家去決定"},{"start":366.8,"end":368.8,"text":"你有問過消費者嗎"},{"start":368.8,"end":372.8,"text":"這是專家會議之後的來開的"},{"start":372.8,"end":375.8,"text":"因為會對產業的衝擊他們必須要去做因應"},{"start":375.8,"end":377.8,"text":"低衡他要配合"},{"start":377.8,"end":378.8,"text":"所以這個階段裡面"},{"start":378.8,"end":381.8,"text":"如果當天會議室裡面只有業者代表"},{"start":381.8,"end":383.8,"text":"沒有半個消費者代表"},{"start":383.8,"end":386.8,"text":"那我們院長最後拍板的20%門檻"},{"start":386.8,"end":388.8,"text":"到底評論了誰的意見"},{"start":388.8,"end":389.8,"text":"你拍板的啊"},{"start":389.8,"end":390.8,"text":"那你評論了誰的意見"},{"start":390.8,"end":393.8,"text":"我想這個20%在決策的過程中"},{"start":393.8,"end":396.8,"text":"其實做了非常完整的科學上面的分析"},{"start":396.8,"end":399.8,"text":"跟推論跟技術上面的一個討論"},{"start":399.8,"end":401.8,"text":"確定這樣子對民眾的健康"},{"start":401.8,"end":404.8,"text":"所以你們那邊可以得到確定的保障"},{"start":404.8,"end":405.8,"text":"20%"},{"start":405.8,"end":406.8,"text":"討論的結論是什麼"},{"start":406.8,"end":408.8,"text":"對實質的公協會裡面我們只說"},{"start":408.8,"end":410.8,"text":"我們對於低層下架"},{"start":410.8,"end":412.8,"text":"對於產業裡面可能的影響"},{"start":412.8,"end":414.8,"text":"你們要回去因應去了解"},{"start":414.8,"end":415.8,"text":"可能有品的使用"},{"start":415.8,"end":417.8,"text":"會有遇到什麼問題"},{"start":417.8,"end":418.8,"text":"需要大家能夠配合"},{"start":418.8,"end":421.8,"text":"避免現在有違規的有品"},{"start":421.8,"end":425.8,"text":"造成民眾持續加重他們的受傷"},{"start":425.8,"end":426.8,"text":"所以我們就是提到了"},{"start":426.8,"end":429.8,"text":"現在8.1PPP這一批的緣由"},{"start":429.8,"end":430.8,"text":"我們確定在這裡"},{"start":430.8,"end":433.8,"text":"是中聯產生4月4號的這一批"},{"start":433.8,"end":435.8,"text":"能夠所有的原因確定下來"},{"start":435.8,"end":436.8,"text":"你不要講"},{"start":436.8,"end":438.8,"text":"我現在就講說你這些業者去"},{"start":438.8,"end":439.8,"text":"誰代表消費者"},{"start":439.8,"end":440.8,"text":"有沒有嘛"},{"start":440.8,"end":441.8,"text":"我講業者"},{"start":441.8,"end":442.8,"text":"有沒有啦"},{"start":442.8,"end":443.8,"text":"我講業者"},{"start":443.8,"end":445.8,"text":"有沒有人代表消費者去開會"},{"start":445.8,"end":446.8,"text":"我說業者同時"},{"start":446.8,"end":448.8,"text":"都是每個都是消費者"},{"start":448.8,"end":449.8,"text":"彼此之間都是"},{"start":449.8,"end":451.8,"text":"所以我這邊特別提到的"},{"start":451.8,"end":452.8,"text":"你講的什麼話"},{"start":452.8,"end":453.8,"text":"他們業者全部都是消費者"},{"start":453.8,"end":455.8,"text":"對我說每個人都是消費者"},{"start":455.8,"end":456.8,"text":"我針對的是"},{"start":456.8,"end":458.8,"text":"那他們就是成員先排案"},{"start":458.8,"end":459.8,"text":"不是嗎"},{"start":459.8,"end":462.8,"text":"他們決定的事情可以做嗎"},{"start":462.8,"end":464.8,"text":"你們把消費者放在哪邊"},{"start":464.8,"end":467.8,"text":"就幾個業者來決定說"},{"start":467.8,"end":468.8,"text":"我們民眾的健康"},{"start":468.8,"end":469.8,"text":"他們沒有決定"},{"start":469.8,"end":470.8,"text":"這有人誤會了"},{"start":470.8,"end":471.8,"text":"這沒有決定"},{"start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那個油槽"},{"start":623.8,"end":624.8,"text":"對 那個油槽台糖的說法"},{"start":624.8,"end":626.8,"text":"5月9日他拉貨的時候"},{"start":626.8,"end":627.8,"text":"這個裁減檢體的時候"},{"start":627.8,"end":629.8,"text":"311油槽就已經先動過"},{"start":629.8,"end":631.8,"text":"這個做過遷封了嘛 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通報的責任啊"},{"start":1085.8,"end":1087.8,"text":"本來就應該要通報啊"},{"start":1087.8,"end":1089.8,"text":"你拿那個東西你放在那邊"},{"start":1089.8,"end":1091.8,"text":"你已經驗到有這個東西"},{"start":1091.8,"end":1093.8,"text":"你不往上通報"},{"start":1093.8,"end":1095.8,"text":"可是今天這個材料"},{"start":1095.8,"end":1097.8,"text":"當然台糖的錯"},{"start":1097.8,"end":1099.8,"text":"台糖的錯不是很大"},{"start":1099.8,"end":1101.8,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":1101.8,"end":1103.8,"text":"最苦惡的手還是這個中聯"},{"start":1103.8,"end":1105.8,"text":"台糖應該要"},{"start":1105.8,"end":1107.8,"text":"辦起一個"},{"start":1107.8,"end":1109.8,"text":"這個你的這個"},{"start":1109.8,"end":1111.8,"text":"這個業者的一個"},{"start":1111.8,"end":1113.8,"text":"基本的一個態度嘛"},{"start":1115.8,"end":1117.8,"text":"這個材料沒有進入到台糖"},{"start":1117.8,"end":1119.8,"text":"的這個製程裡面之前"},{"start":1119.8,"end":1121.8,"text":"它可以販售到"},{"start":1121.8,"end":1123.8,"text":"比如說工業的添加劑"},{"start":1123.8,"end":1125.8,"text":"包括潤滑油包括肥皂"},{"start":1125.8,"end":1127.8,"text":"所以中聯公司它可以賣去做"},{"start":1127.8,"end":1129.8,"text":"最後我再問你啊 但是回到"},{"start":1129.8,"end":1131.8,"text":"食品安全的部分 台糖公司"},{"start":1131.8,"end":1133.8,"text":"依照依照 你們的標案"},{"start":1133.8,"end":1135.8,"text":"你們的標案今年台糖"},{"start":1135.8,"end":1137.8,"text":"5月13日公告的"},{"start":1137.8,"end":1139.8,"text":"CO115黃豆"},{"start":1139.8,"end":1141.8,"text":"出油採購案嘛"},{"start":1141.8,"end":1143.8,"text":"那5月13日公告當時"},{"start":1143.8,"end":1145.8,"text":"台糖確實還沒有拿到那超標的"},{"start":1145.8,"end":1147.8,"text":"7倍報告 但是"},{"start":1147.8,"end":1149.8,"text":"台糖在5月15日已經收到"},{"start":1149.8,"end":1151.8,"text":"檢驗結果 那確認中"},{"start":1151.8,"end":1153.8,"text":"中聯311油槽的"},{"start":1153.8,"end":1155.8,"text":"獨有本年比的"},{"start":1155.8,"end":1157.8,"text":"高達14.7ppm"},{"start":1157.8,"end":1159.8,"text":"超標過"},{"start":1159.8,"end":1161.8,"text":"這個超過7倍"},{"start":1161.8,"end":1163.8,"text":"那在5月18號通知據說"},{"start":1163.8,"end":1165.8,"text":"那這個CO115標案的"},{"start":1165.8,"end":1167.8,"text":"投標截止日是"},{"start":1167.8,"end":1169.8,"text":"5月25"},{"start":1169.8,"end":1171.8,"text":"從5月15到25號"},{"start":1171.8,"end":1173.8,"text":"有10天啦 有10天"},{"start":1173.8,"end":1175.8,"text":"那中聯油紙是國內大型油紙的上游"},{"start":1175.8,"end":1177.8,"text":"那福茂更是"},{"start":1177.8,"end":1179.8,"text":"與此標案有高度的相關的供應商"},{"start":1179.8,"end":1181.8,"text":"那台糖在辦理這個"},{"start":1181.8,"end":1183.8,"text":"攸關民生實在重大的"},{"start":1183.8,"end":1185.8,"text":"採購案期間"},{"start":1185.8,"end":1187.8,"text":"已經驗出了這個上游供應鏈"},{"start":1187.8,"end":1189.8,"text":"這個製程失控"},{"start":1189.8,"end":1191.8,"text":"毒素超標7倍的自密訊號"},{"start":1191.8,"end":1193.8,"text":"整整10天喔"},{"start":1193.8,"end":1195.8,"text":"那台糖"},{"start":1195.8,"end":1197.8,"text":"為什麼沒有暫停這個"},{"start":1197.8,"end":1199.8,"text":"資格審查"},{"start":1199.8,"end":1201.8,"text":"所有的這個"},{"start":1201.8,"end":1203.8,"text":"資格審查的部分"},{"start":1203.8,"end":1205.8,"text":"是發生在這個更早之前"},{"start":1205.8,"end":1207.8,"text":"但是"},{"start":1207.8,"end":1209.8,"text":"現在有產品它不需要提供到"},{"start":1209.8,"end":1211.8,"text":"台糖的"},{"start":1211.8,"end":1213.8,"text":"那你有沒有把這項重大供應風險納入"},{"start":1213.8,"end":1215.8,"text":"審查這個項目"},{"start":1215.8,"end":1217.8,"text":"台糖的這個允收的標準"},{"start":1217.8,"end":1219.8,"text":"除了我們剛剛一直在談的"},{"start":1219.8,"end":1221.8,"text":"還有很多的一個標準"},{"start":1221.8,"end":1223.8,"text":"比如說是點啊"},{"start":1223.8,"end":1225.8,"text":"它現在是這個標準"},{"start":1225.8,"end":1227.8,"text":"它這家有公司"},{"start":1227.8,"end":1229.8,"text":"你們還繼續讓它做嗎"},{"start":1229.8,"end":1231.8,"text":"你還繼續讓它做嗎"},{"start":1231.8,"end":1233.8,"text":"基本上"},{"start":1233.8,"end":1235.8,"text":"透過中央跟地方合作的話"},{"start":1235.8,"end":1237.8,"text":"特別是"},{"start":1237.8,"end":1239.8,"text":"像中聯這個市佔率這麼大的"},{"start":1239.8,"end":1241.8,"text":"所謂的油品的這個提供的"},{"start":1241.8,"end":1243.8,"text":"這個廠商"},{"start":1243.8,"end":1245.8,"text":"在地方的政府可以加強"},{"start":1245.8,"end":1247.8,"text":"的稽查之下的話"},{"start":1247.8,"end":1249.8,"text":"那基本上它這個不合格的這個產品"},{"start":1249.8,"end":1251.8,"text":"產生的這個機率"},{"start":1251.8,"end":1253.8,"text":"就會大幅的降低"},{"start":1253.8,"end":1255.8,"text":"那CO015"},{"start":1255.8,"end":1257.8,"text":"全部申請投標的廠商"},{"start":1257.8,"end":1259.8,"text":"有哪些"},{"start":1259.8,"end":1261.8,"text":"審查合格的有哪些"},{"start":1261.8,"end":1263.8,"text":"你再提供給我"},{"start":1263.8,"end":1265.8,"text":"有九家廠商"},{"start":1265.8,"end":1267.8,"text":"好那你把這個資格得標的資格"},{"start":1267.8,"end":1269.8,"text":"我們看一下"},{"start":1269.8,"end":1271.8,"text":"那過去福壽跟泰山這個得標"},{"start":1271.8,"end":1273.8,"text":"跟這次福茂一樣得標"},{"start":1273.8,"end":1275.8,"text":"你們都是去中聯"},{"start":1275.8,"end":1277.8,"text":"中聯去拉貨嘛"},{"start":1277.8,"end":1279.8,"text":"一年買幾個億幾個億的買"},{"start":1279.8,"end":1281.8,"text":"對不對"},{"start":1281.8,"end":1283.8,"text":"那現在這一家出問題的"},{"start":1283.8,"end":1285.8,"text":"你們沒有替代方案嗎"},{"start":1285.8,"end":1287.8,"text":"還要繼續在那邊買嗎"},{"start":1287.8,"end":1289.8,"text":"有問題的"},{"start":1289.8,"end":1291.8,"text":"材料不符合允收標準"},{"start":1291.8,"end":1293.8,"text":"台糖不會進入到它的廠區"},{"start":1293.8,"end":1295.8,"text":"有沒有依這個"},{"start":1295.8,"end":1297.8,"text":"政府採購法101條"},{"start":1297.8,"end":1299.8,"text":"來審理"},{"start":1299.8,"end":1301.8,"text":"將福茂提報為不良廠商"},{"start":1301.8,"end":1303.8,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":1303.8,"end":1305.8,"text":"這個採購的這個部分請"},{"start":1305.8,"end":1307.8,"text":"這個台糖公司會依照"},{"start":1307.8,"end":1309.8,"text":"法的規定來辦理"},{"start":1309.8,"end":1311.8,"text":"我們有在研究"},{"start":1311.8,"end":1313.8,"text":"你現在還沒有決定就對了"},{"start":1313.8,"end":1315.8,"text":"那如果繼續買勒"},{"start":1315.8,"end":1317.8,"text":"因為"},{"start":1317.8,"end":1319.8,"text":"所有的為合乎"},{"start":1319.8,"end":1321.8,"text":"資格的部分我們不提領"},{"start":1321.8,"end":1323.8,"text":"但是它提供的部分"},{"start":1323.8,"end":1325.8,"text":"合乎我們契約的允收標準"},{"start":1325.8,"end":1327.8,"text":"那這個台糖公司會收"},{"start":1327.8,"end":1329.8,"text":"我覺得你們要列入考量啦"},{"start":1329.8,"end":1331.8,"text":"這些有問題的業者"},{"start":1331.8,"end":1333.8,"text":"你們在資格審查的時候"},{"start":1333.8,"end":1335.8,"text":"一定要做一個區隔"},{"start":1335.8,"end":1337.8,"text":"再做嚴格的審查"},{"start":1337.8,"end":1339.8,"text":"可以嗎"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:49:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:16.044444+08:00","text":"主席好，我們請石部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:18.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:19.600000+08:00","text":"有請石部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:19.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:24.800000+08:00","text":"邱委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:24.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:25.466667+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:26.345455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:40.514286+08:00","text":"現在媒體爆料，檢調查中聯案的過程裡面，在查扣手機的通訊內容發現，有員工在4月份就已經回報大豆黏黏的、怪怪的，懷疑可以出貨嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:41.014286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:43.585714+08:00","text":"這部分很明顯就是原料的問題。嗯。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:43.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:50.550000+08:00","text":"你們是不是早就知道，所以一直迴避其他油廠購買的數量，是害怕牽連太廣嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:50.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:52.228571+08:00","text":"一直沒有公布。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:52.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:55.270588+08:00","text":"不會，我們都有掌握它每一個批號。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:55.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:56.800000+08:00","text":"所以你們也調查完了，對嗎？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:57.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:50:58.700000+08:00","text":"手上也有完整資料嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:50:59.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:01.675000+08:00","text":"為什麼我要的數據，到現在還不給我？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:01.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:04.550000+08:00","text":"有，我已經批了，一定會給委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:04.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:05.550000+08:00","text":"到現在還沒看到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:05.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:08.612500+08:00","text":"奇怪了，我已經看到說要提供給委員的資料。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:09.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:10.633333+08:00","text":"你們現在資料都有帶嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:10.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:12.800000+08:00","text":"不然你們現在寫一寫，好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:13.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:14.514286+08:00","text":"你待會就給我……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:15.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:19.466667+08:00","text":"好，待會就給委員……已經送過去了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:28.466667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:36.550000+08:00","text":"部長，我再請教你，你們放在官網上新聞稿的內容，真實度有多少？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:38.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:39.300000+08:00","text":"您說的是……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:39.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:43.492308+08:00","text":"就是專家會議跟公協會的會議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:43.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:47.577778+08:00","text":"公協會跟專家會議，您指的是7月4日的嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:47.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:48.550000+08:00","text":"對，7月4日的。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:48.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:50.300000+08:00","text":"7月4日的，我們今天下午……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:50.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:51.633333+08:00","text":"有兩場，對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:51.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:52.600000+08:00","text":"我們就會來公告給……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:53.022222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:54.577778+08:00","text":"部長是參加哪一場？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:54.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:56.300000+08:00","text":"我沒有出席……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:57.200000+08:00","text":"署長呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:57.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:51:58.600000+08:00","text":"你參加哪一場？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:51:58.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:00.618182+08:00","text":"我兩場都有參加，因為是我來主持的。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:00.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:03.300000+08:00","text":"行政院誰去啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:04.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:08.400000+08:00","text":"派誰去、去哪一場？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:08.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:10.577778+08:00","text":"我是去專家的那一場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:10.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:11.300000+08:00","text":"專家的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:11.981818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:13.618182+08:00","text":"兩場的主席是誰、誰記錄？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:14.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:17.466667+08:00","text":"主席是我，兩場的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:17.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:18.657143+08:00","text":"兩場的主席都是你？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:18.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:19.657143+08:00","text":"對，兩場的主席是我。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:20.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:21.400000+08:00","text":"食安辦誰去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:24.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:25.300000+08:00","text":"你去，是嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:26.085714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:27.514286+08:00","text":"對，許輔去的是……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:27.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:39.466667+08:00","text":"你們的新聞稿，專家會議這一場，就是兩個方向，一個是釐清可能的污染原因，還有未來怎麼避免再發生的管理機制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:39.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:47.050000+08:00","text":"剛剛你們說的，新聞稿內容都是真實的，那就表示專家會議沒有討論20％的部分，對不對？有啊！","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:47.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:49.633333+08:00","text":"剛才都已經有做完整的說明了。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:49.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:52:50.050000+08:00","text":"什麼時候？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:52:50.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:53:03.600000+08:00","text":"分為兩個部分，因為之前沒有特別地有機會跟大家公開，今天也做了說明，所以第一個是，中聯……一開始7月4日、那個瞬間，其實只有一批，原因不清楚……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:53:03.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:53:04.600000+08:00","text":"20％是你拍板的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:53:04.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:53:05.600000+08:00","text":"所以找了臺灣油品專家……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:53:04.657143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:53:06.371429+08:00","text":"是專家拍板？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:53:06.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:53:34.657143+08:00","text":"接下來，專家會議裡面的第二個議題是，因為我們用下架的一個標準2 ppb這麼嚴格針對油脂的，我們、歐盟、韓國都是，所以韓國跟歐盟針對油品違規的時候也是下架到第一層，對於第二層是否要下架的判斷基準，其實跟我們面對的苯駢芘8.1 ppb的標準是一致的，底下產品是什麼樣子，所以才會20％……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:53:35.981818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:53:37.618182+08:00","text":"所以20％是你們專家這場還是……","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:53:37.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:53:59.184615+08:00","text":"在專家會議這場裡面，針對這個內容做了非常完整的討論後，因為第一層下架之後，有沒有可能會沒有涵蓋到超過我們所謂2 ppb的概念，所以大家開始在討論的時候，許多專家提到，的確在2 ppb裡面，如果用的油脂百分比是超過20％……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:53:59.184615+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:00.387045+08:00","text":"我再請教，食藥署……","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:00.387045+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:01.589474+08:00","text":"理論上算起來是25％。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:01.589474+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:12.550000+08:00","text":"你們邀集14個食品產業相關公會的這一場，新聞稿說召開這場會議是為了降低事件對消費者及下游業者的影響。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:15.600000+08:00","text":"你們邀請了14個食品產業公協會，對吧？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:15.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:17.466667+08:00","text":"代表下游業者……","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:17.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:19.633333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告一下這件事情，產品鏈的……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:19.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:20.163636+08:00","text":"是不是嘛？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:20.345455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:21.618182+08:00","text":"你不要講那麼複雜，是不是嘛？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:21.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:36.623529+08:00","text":"我說這14個產業裡面，相對地都是食品相關產業，油品事件裡面，一定會對產業有衝擊，我們說明現在第一層下架，以及剛才講20％可能會成為我們進一步的……","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:37.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:41.600000+08:00","text":"我不是要問你這個，你不要亂講，我現在問你，你回答就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:41.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:46.300000+08:00","text":"那代表下游業者，請問代表消費者的是誰，有嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:46.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:51.163636+08:00","text":"我要把這14個公協會……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:51.890909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:54:57.200000+08:00","text":"你找了14家公協會來，這些都是食品公會，對不對？","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:54:57.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:00.466667+08:00","text":"那麼代表消費者的是誰、有沒有？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:00.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:04.633333+08:00","text":"我這邊要回去再確認一下，可能消費者部分的溝通，我們可能……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:04.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:07.133333+08:00","text":"我來問你好了，一個一個問。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:10.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:15.466667+08:00","text":"台灣植物油製煉工業同業公會有去嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:15.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:17.514286+08:00","text":"我印象中是有的。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:17.514286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:19.300000+08:00","text":"好，勾起來。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:19.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:22.550000+08:00","text":"台灣烘焙油脂工業同業公會有去嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:22.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:25.200000+08:00","text":"我這邊可不可以請我們同仁們協助？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:25.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:27.600000+08:00","text":"哪14個待會念給委員們聽一下？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:27.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:30.133333+08:00","text":"確定一下14個整個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:30.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:31.425000+08:00","text":"好，你這邊勾一勾。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:31.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:34.577778+08:00","text":"我有資料，題目拿過去再勾一下。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:35.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:37.618182+08:00","text":"我繼續問，他們勾他們的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:40.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:54.600000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，你們把公協會找去，把消費者放一邊，這些公會是討論讓業者的損失怎麼樣降到最低，是嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:54.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:55:55.550000+08:00","text":"不是這個，是因為……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:55:55.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:56:02.550000+08:00","text":"還是把消費者當作白老鼠，反正他們幾家、14家去決定，你有問過消費者嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:56:02.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:56:12.675000+08:00","text":"這是專家會議之後開的，因為會對產業有衝擊，他們必須要做因應，第一，可能他要配合，所以這個階段裡面……","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:56:12.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:56:22.577778+08:00","text":"所以如果當天會議室裡面只有業者代表，沒有半個消費者代表，院長最後拍板的20％門檻，到底平衡了誰的意見？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:56:22.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:56:23.600000+08:00","text":"你拍板的啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:56:23.911111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:56:24.688889+08:00","text":"你平衡了誰的意見？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:56:24.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:56:35.618182+08:00","text":"我想這20％在決策的過程中，其實做了非常完整的科學分析、推論跟技術上面的討論，確定這樣子對於民眾的健康……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:56:35.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:56:36.600000+08:00","text":"所以你們那天……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:56:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:56:38.600000+08:00","text":"可以得到實際的保障，再去調整……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:56:39.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:56:40.675000+08:00","text":"14個公協會討論的結論是什麼？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:56:41.415385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:09.618182+08:00","text":"公協會裡面，我們只說對於第一層下架、對於產業可能的影響，你們要回去因應、去了解，可能油品的使用會遇到什麼問題，需要大家能夠配合，避免現在有違規的油品造成民眾的受損持續加重，所以我們就是提到了，現在8.1 ppb這一批原油，我們確定在這裡，是中聯產生、4月4日的這一批，能夠所有的確定下來、下架……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:09.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:10.550000+08:00","text":"好了，你先不講。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:10.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:13.633333+08:00","text":"我現在就講，這些業者去，誰代表消費者？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:13.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:14.550000+08:00","text":"有沒有嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:14.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:15.550000+08:00","text":"我講業者……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:15.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:16.550000+08:00","text":"有沒有啦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:17.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:19.633333+08:00","text":"有沒有人代表消費者去開會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:19.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:25.600000+08:00","text":"我說業者同時每個都是消費者，彼此之間都是，所以我這邊特別提到的一件事情……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:25.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:27.709091+08:00","text":"你這講的是什麼話，什麼他們業者全部都是消費者！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:27.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:30.600000+08:00","text":"對，我說每個人都是消費者，我針對的是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:33.466667+08:00","text":"他們就是球員兼裁判，不是嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:33.466667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:34.466667+08:00","text":"這是科學訂定出來的一個結果，有機會可以大家做個說明……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:34.466667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:35.466667+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:33.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:36.527273+08:00","text":"他們的決定，大家可以做嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:36.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:38.600000+08:00","text":"你們把消費者放在哪邊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:38.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:42.657143+08:00","text":"就幾個業者來決定民眾的健康。","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:42.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:46.550000+08:00","text":"他們沒有決定，委員誤會了，這個沒有決定、沒有決定，專家會議的……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:46.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:47.657143+08:00","text":"那你叫他們來開會是開什麼？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:47.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:48.675000+08:00","text":"是另外一件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:48.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:49.600000+08:00","text":"你是開什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:49.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:57:52.600000+08:00","text":"去幫業者增加營收，減少損失嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:57:52.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:01.500000+08:00","text":"跟委員補充，其實這個會議是在專家會議之後，所以是把專家會議所做出來的下架決議來跟……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:01.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:02.657143+08:00","text":"如果沒有消費者……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:02.657143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:03.657143+08:00","text":"溝通，他們來配合。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:02.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:07.466667+08:00","text":"就是你們把全國人民的安全、健康去跟業者做交換嘛？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:07.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:19.577778+08:00","text":"不是，這個會議是在專家會議之後，然後把專家會議決議的這個事情來告知業者，請他們回去配合，這是要業者回去配合。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:19.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:27.577778+08:00","text":"我繼續問，部長，你們到底什麼時候知道中聯油脂的311跟301脫膠油槽出事情了？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:27.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:29.550000+08:00","text":"你什麼時候知道的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:29.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:38.800000+08:00","text":"就是只有台糖沒有收的311油槽，這個是在後面7月1日要求他停工，然後後面7月……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:39.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:41.500000+08:00","text":"4月份就發現，你們7月才知道啊？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:44.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:58:52.300000+08:00","text":"因為6月30日中聯才通報我們，所以我們是從7月1日開始去查廠介入。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:58:52.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:59:04.550000+08:00","text":"7月17日，調查小組的會前會就已經精準點名，指定要看這兩個油槽，代表你們最慢在7月17日以前就一清二楚了嘛？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:59:05.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:59:19.550000+08:00","text":"既然掌握了311跟301有問題，為什麼7月27日食藥署大張旗鼓開記者會，卻對台糖5月就驗出311油槽超標、私下改收301油槽的這件事情隻字未提？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:59:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:59:22.633333+08:00","text":"調查報告為什麼刻意漏掉台糖這一段？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:59:22.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:59:24.577778+08:00","text":"你們到底在幫誰遮醜？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:59:24.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:59:33.466667+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們針對油，現在在台糖的311油槽還有一千一百多公噸，其實一直都在。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T11:59:33.981818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:59:37.550000+08:00","text":"而這個跟現在食藥署在管的食品的油品相關的……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T11:59:37.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T11:59:46.600000+08:00","text":"如果沒有地院的裁定羈押廠長，爆出台糖5月之前……衛福部是不是打算把311油槽有毒的真相掩埋一輩子？","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T11:59:46.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:01.492308+08:00","text":"沒有，跟委員說明，我們針對的是它已經完成製程的，食用油品30批，我們全部都查，它這個不是，它這個是做到一半的脫膠原油，停在那裡，它並沒有往後製造。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:01.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:06.569231+08:00","text":"這些油槽是食藥署7月1號去查廠的時候就封了嗎？還是……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:06.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:17.400000+08:00","text":"就是7月1號就已經全面停工，所以它就不能動了；7月1號就已經全面停工，所以它根本沒有在製造油，那個油槽也不會動。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:18.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:25.072727+08:00","text":"依照台糖的說法，5月中旬，它拉貨、採檢的時候，311油槽就已經做過鉛封了嘛！","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:25.254545+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:25.618182+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:26.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:32.425000+08:00","text":"我想請教，當你們食藥署真正趕到現場的時候，這個311油槽長什麼樣子？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:33.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:34.550000+08:00","text":"鉛封還在不在？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:36.371429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:41+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，都在那裡，可以看到它有標「311」，裡面放了……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:41.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:45.400000+08:00","text":"你有沒有當時蒐證的照片？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:45.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:00:51.577778+08:00","text":"那個油也沒有改變位置，槽也沒有改變位置，隨時都可以拍得到。","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:00:52.371429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:05.600000+08:00","text":"請問台糖蔡副總經理，你有鉛封的照片嗎？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:06.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:09.633333+08:00","text":"鉛封的照片，我們當初驗收的時候有。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:10.085714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:11.514286+08:00","text":"你可以提供嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:11.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:13.300000+08:00","text":"沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:14.022222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:27.466667+08:00","text":"為什麼你們在7月21日公布30批油的檢驗結果，還大言不慚地說全部查驗完畢，而且還一直告訴大家可以上架，那份清單裡面完全沒有提到311，連301都沒有？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:27.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:31.514286+08:00","text":"你是不是打算告訴民眾，脫膠油和成品油不一樣，所以不在清單內？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:33.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:35.550000+08:00","text":"因為它就不是成品啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:35.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:39.514286+08:00","text":"它是做到一半的東西，都已經停下來了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:39.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:46.942857+08:00","text":"我們對30批的批號統統很清楚，那是會變成市場上的食品，那個……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:47.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:49.646154+08:00","text":"你知道有問題，為什麼不列進去呢？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:49.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:51.466667+08:00","text":"因為它就不是食用油啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:51.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:55.800000+08:00","text":"它不是食用油，它為什麼不拉？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:55.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:56.800000+08:00","text":"它為什麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:56.022222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:57.577778+08:00","text":"它可以做其他用途。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:57.577778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:01:58.577778+08:00","text":"可以做什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:01:57.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:02.466667+08:00","text":"它可以做肥皂，可以做工業用油。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:02.688889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:03.577778+08:00","text":"台糖，脫膠油可以拿去做什麼？","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:03.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:05.300000+08:00","text":"我們沒有拿。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:05.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:09.400000+08:00","text":"我是說，你們去買的油是做什麼用？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:09.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:13.466667+08:00","text":"做沙拉油，精煉成沙拉油。對啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:13.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:15.514286+08:00","text":"部長有沒有聽到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:15.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:17.466667+08:00","text":"什麼叫做做肥皂！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:17.466667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:18.466667+08:00","text":"它可以做……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:18.466667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:19.466667+08:00","text":"胡說八道！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:18.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:19+08:00","text":"它就沒有做……不是……","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:19.966667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:21.633333+08:00","text":"它拉去，明明就沒有要做這個。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:22.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:23.550000+08:00","text":"不是，它可以去做其他的……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:23.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:25.550000+08:00","text":"你不要講這個東西。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:26.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:31.600000+08:00","text":"你講的是廢話，它是做油的，它就沒有做肥皂，它怎麼會買油去做肥皂呢？","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:32.709091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:35.300000+08:00","text":"不是，我是說脫膠原油……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:35.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:37.618182+08:00","text":"他們拿去就是要做沙拉油嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:37.618182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:38.618182+08:00","text":"脫膠原油啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:38.618182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:39.618182+08:00","text":"脫膠原油有其他用途……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:39.618182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:40.618182+08:00","text":"他們拿去就是要做沙拉油啊！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:38.066667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:39.666667+08:00","text":"招標的時候也是說要做沙拉油啊！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:39.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:41.400000+08:00","text":"就是食用油嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:43.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:45.577778+08:00","text":"脫膠原油不是食用油啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:45.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:47.577778+08:00","text":"脫膠原油不是食用油。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:47.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:49.300000+08:00","text":"那是原料嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:50.022222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:51.577778+08:00","text":"它拿去就是要做這個啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:51.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:55.550000+08:00","text":"不然它為什麼不拉？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:55.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:02:57.618182+08:00","text":"如果可以用，它為什麼不拉？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:02:57.618182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:03:01.800000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:03:01.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:03:21.633333+08:00","text":"你們食藥署和地方衛生局一直追查的全部都是市面上的成品沙拉油，但是從現在的漏洞看來，市面上的受害規模，致癌油的實際數量根本遠超過你們對外公布的數字，真的完全不只是你們口頭說的那樣子，完全讓人家聽不懂也看不懂。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:03:21.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:03:25.466667+08:00","text":"不過因為它沒有流出啊！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:03:26.085714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:03:29.514286+08:00","text":"它還是留在那裡，所以它沒有流出，它沒有做成產品。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:03:30.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:03:53.657143+08:00","text":"台糖蔡副總，我再問你，因為臺中地檢署裁定書揭露，我們才知道台糖在5月11日派人到中聯311油槽取樣送檢驗，15日報告苯駢芘14.7 ppb，標準才2 ppb，超過7倍，台糖在5月18日正式通知福懋拒收。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:03:54.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:03.466667+08:00","text":"蔡副總經理，5月15日報告出來，台糖內部是誰確定把這份報告壓下來，只做商業退貨？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:03.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:05.577778+08:00","text":"我們報告不會壓下來，因為……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:06.085714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:07.228571+08:00","text":"為什麼不通報？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:07.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:15.514286+08:00","text":"因為我們送驗之後，它超過我們招標的規範，所以我們就拒收。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:16.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:17.550000+08:00","text":"你們為什麼不通報呢？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:19.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:21.577778+08:00","text":"這個連中聯都不需要通報啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:29.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:31.514286+08:00","text":"因為它不是食用油。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:31.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:35.466667+08:00","text":"請經濟部次長回答一下，有沒有要通報？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:35.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:43.550000+08:00","text":"委員，依照臺中地方法院的新聞稿，福懋是必須要有通報的責任，包括中聯。對啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:44.466667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:45.133333+08:00","text":"台糖呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:46.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:04:57.400000+08:00","text":"台糖的話，它基本上311油槽裡面的粗油始終沒有進入到台糖的生產線，它就沒有油收進來。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:04:57.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:05:21.400000+08:00","text":"經濟部訂有災害及緊急事件通報程序，裡面寫得很清楚，凡是經濟部所屬事業體發生只要滿足影響民生、影響上下游產業供需、影響事業形象或者可能引起媒體報導的任何一項，都必須啟動通報。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:05:22.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:05:23.550000+08:00","text":"台糖是國營事業吧？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:05:23.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:05:34.800000+08:00","text":"第一個，台糖公司針對它生產的產品，比如大豆沙拉油的部分，無論是在它製造過程裡面，自主檢驗達到……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:05:38.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:05:43.514286+08:00","text":"它要去收的油已經影響上下游產業供需了，怎麼會沒有影響呢？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:05:43.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:05:51.514286+08:00","text":"第二個部分，你剛剛講的，我們是依照災防法的規定去訂定相關的作業規則……對啊！","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:05:51.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:05:53.600000+08:00","text":"這個是依照災害防救法，我們今天是談食安法的部分……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:05:53.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:01.133333+08:00","text":"中聯是全臺最大的油脂上游，中聯的油槽驗出致癌物超過7倍……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:01.133333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:02.133333+08:00","text":"現在已經繫屬在做調查，法院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:01.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:03.550000+08:00","text":"這沒有影響民生嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:03.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:05.400000+08:00","text":"這不嚴重嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:05.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:07.646154+08:00","text":"法院在做審理當中，而臺中地檢署也多次表達……","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:07.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:09.618182+08:00","text":"我現在是問經濟部的規定啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:09.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:14.800000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們是災防法的規定啊！對啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:15.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:17.550000+08:00","text":"你講到臺中去幹嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:17.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:19.514286+08:00","text":"這個是食品安全。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:19.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:21.400000+08:00","text":"這也一樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:21.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:23.466667+08:00","text":"這沒有影響嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:23.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:24.415385+08:00","text":"這沒有影響民生嗎？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:24.569231+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:25.646154+08:00","text":"這沒有影響上下游產業供需嗎？","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:25.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:37.466667+08:00","text":"今天比如像是漏水或是有一些可能影響民眾用水安全的部分，它會依照這個規定通報啊！","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:37.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:41.577778+08:00","text":"我現在問的是台糖，台糖不是你國營事業？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:42.022222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:43.577778+08:00","text":"台糖當然是國營事業。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:43.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:46.200000+08:00","text":"國營事業主要負責有關CI的部分……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:46.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:47.600000+08:00","text":"凡是經濟部所屬事業體發生事件，對不對？","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:47.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:51.550000+08:00","text":"有關CI的部分，它透過災害防救法……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:51.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:06:55.514286+08:00","text":"你們當初決定不要通報，現在就勇敢回答啦！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:06:55.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:03.514286+08:00","text":"從源頭到人民吃進肚子以前，上千項產品都被影響，怎麼會沒影響呢？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:03.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:05.550000+08:00","text":"有沒有影響上下游產業供需？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:05.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:07.577778+08:00","text":"會不會影響人民健康？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:07.577778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:08.577778+08:00","text":"台糖公司和這個契約的出售方……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:07.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:09.577778+08:00","text":"沒有影響台糖形象嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:10.466667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:11.577778+08:00","text":"跟福懋有通知，而……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:11.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:13.657143+08:00","text":"這幾天你們都是媒體追逐的焦點！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:13.657143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:16.050000+08:00","text":"而法院也判決這幾家公司是應該通報的啊！","quality":0.278},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:16.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:17.550000+08:00","text":"這4項指標完全滿足！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:35.466667+08:00","text":"台糖身為經濟部轄下的國營事業，帶頭違反經濟部自己的災害通報程序，瞞了2個月，經濟部到現在還沒有懲處，竟然還連續發文幫忙大洗地，大讚台糖是「好寶寶」、好厲害、很棒棒！","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:35.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:36.800000+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:37.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:50.163636+08:00","text":"委員，經濟部平時對我們國營事業都有定期實地查核，年終也有一個查核的工作，所以基本上我們對國營事業有一個督導的……","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:50.709091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:53.133333+08:00","text":"高檢署檢察官都已經講了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:53.133333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:56.300000+08:00","text":"地方法院也有講到，台糖發生這個事情，福懋和中聯……","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:56.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:57.550000+08:00","text":"你不要再拗！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:58.466667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:07:59.577778+08:00","text":"要有這個通報的責任啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:07:59.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:08:01.577778+08:00","text":"本來就應該要通報啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:08:02.163636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:08:07.466667+08:00","text":"那個東西放在那邊，已經驗到有這個東西，還不往上通報？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:08:07.466667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:08:08.466667+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:08:07.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:08:09.550000+08:00","text":"可是它這個材料沒有進入到……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:08:09.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:08:13.550000+08:00","text":"當然，台糖的錯不是很大，罪魁禍首還是中聯……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:08:13.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:08:18.200000+08:00","text":"這個材料沒有進到台糖之前，它可以販售……","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:08:18.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:08:27.550000+08:00","text":"台糖應該要有業者的基本態度嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:08:29.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:08:46.022222+08:00","text":"這個材料沒有進入到台糖的製程之前，它可以販售到比如工業添加劑，包括潤滑油、包括肥皂，所以中聯公司可以賣去做這些用途，但是回到食品安全的部分，台糖公司仍然要依照食安法的規定來辦理。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:08:46.688889+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:09:53.300000+08:00","text":"最後我再問你，有關你們的標案，台糖在今年5月13日公告CO-115黃豆粗油採購案，5月13日公告當時，台糖確實還沒有拿到超標7倍的報告，但是台糖在5月15日已經收到檢驗結果，確認中聯311油槽的毒油苯駢芘高達14.7 ppb，超過標準7倍，在5月18日通知拒收，這個CO-115標案的投標截止日是5月25日，從5月15日到25日有10天，中聯油脂是國內大型油脂的上游，福懋更是與此標案有高度相關的供應商，台糖在辦理攸關民生食安重大採購案期間，已經驗出上游供應鏈製程失控，毒素超標7倍的致命訊號，整整10天，台糖為什麼沒有暫停資格審查？","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:09:53.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:05.133333+08:00","text":"所有的資格審查的部分是發生在更早之前，但是他的所有產品必須要提供到台糖的……","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:05.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:09.466667+08:00","text":"你有沒有把這項重大供應風險納入審查項目？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:16.133333+08:00","text":"台糖的允收標準，除了我們剛剛一直在談的苯駢芘之外，還有很多的標準，比如錪啦……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:18.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:21.466667+08:00","text":"對啦，他現在是這個出問題，他這家有公司……","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:21.466667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:22.466667+08:00","text":"沒有符合標準……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:21.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:23.577778+08:00","text":"這家公司已經出問題了嘛，你們還繼續讓他做嗎？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:23.577778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:24.577778+08:00","text":"沒有符合台糖標準的311油槽，基本上都是在中聯公司啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:23.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:25.550000+08:00","text":"你還繼續讓他做嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:25.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:47.514286+08:00","text":"基本上如果透過中央跟地方合作的話，特別是像中聯市占率這麼大的油品供應商，若是地方政府可以加強稽查的話，事實上他不合格產品產生的機率就會大幅的降低。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:48.466667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:53.133333+08:00","text":"等一下，CO0115全部申請投標的廠商有哪些？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:53.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:55.550000+08:00","text":"審查合格的有哪些？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:55.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:57.466667+08:00","text":"你再提供給我。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:57.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:10:59.400000+08:00","text":"有9家廠商。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:10:59.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:11:03.400000+08:00","text":"好，你把得標的資格提供給我們看一下。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:11:03.966667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:11:10.800000+08:00","text":"過去福壽跟泰山得標，跟這次福懋一樣得標，你們都是去中聯拉油，對不對？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:11:11.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:11:15.133333+08:00","text":"一年幾個億、幾個億的買，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:11:15.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:11:19.577778+08:00","text":"那現在這一家出問題了，你們沒有替代方案嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:11:19.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:11:21.577778+08:00","text":"還要繼續在那邊買嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:11:21.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:11:27.618182+08:00","text":"有問題的材料，不符合允收標準，台糖不會讓它進入他的廠區。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:11:27.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:11:36.800000+08:00","text":"有沒有依政府採購法第一百零一條來審理，將福懋提報為不良廠商？有嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:11:38.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:11:43.514286+08:00","text":"採購的部分，台糖公司會依照法的規定來辦理。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:11:45.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:11:49.228571+08:00","text":"你現在還沒有決定就對了，他如果繼續買呢？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:11:49.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:12:01.577778+08:00","text":"因為所有未合乎資格的部分，我們不提領，但是他提供的部分合乎我們契約的允收標準，台糖公司會收。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-08-05T12:12:01.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:12:13.133333+08:00","text":"我覺得你們要列入考量，這些有問題的業者，你們在資格審查的時候一定要做一個區隔，再做嚴格的審查，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:12:13.633333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:12:15.633333+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員指導。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T12:12:15.933333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:12:17.933333+08:00","text":"謝謝邱鎮軍委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T12:12:18.233333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:12:25.947619+08:00","text":"待會在劉建國委員詢答完畢後休息30分鐘用餐，休息以後繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T12:12:26.247619+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:12:28.819048+08:00","text":"請下一位黃秀芳委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}