{"error":false,"id":["170848"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170848,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170848","日期":"2026-08-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-08-05T12:42:41+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-05T13:04:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:21:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d053bb9b075f6aeac1de66ee23fd498dcd75ebd3fcd1029c8febdbf0d712d30d716be6cd68217e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"12:42:41 - 13:04:26","會議時間":"2026-08-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院食品安全辦公室、教育部、國防部、經濟部、台灣糖業股份有限公司及行政院消費者保護處就「從致癌油事件發展迄今，中央一味『蓋牌、吃案、當門神』有關行政究責之重做完整調查報告(含台糖失職、食安警訊斷鏈責任、團體訴訟求償進度)及未來如何確保安全無虞的國軍團膳、學生營養午餐」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午2時30分起，若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、審查行政院函請審議「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員郭國文等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員李彥秀等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員羅智強等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、審查委員盧縣一等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十、審查委員王育敏等25人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十一、審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十二、審查委員林月琴等24人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十三、審查委員林淑芬等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十五、審查委員李坤城等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十六、審查委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十七、審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第二十至二十二案，如經復議則不予審查；第一案及第二十三至三十七案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":9.953468750000003,"end":12.974093750000002,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":13.328468750000003,"end":23.28471875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":24.195968750000002,"end":25.10721875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":25.731593750000002,"end":28.92096875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":29.460968750000003,"end":35.16471875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":35.65409375,"end":37.84784375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":38.38784375,"end":39.97409375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":40.58159375,"end":43.02846875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":43.02846875,"end":43.26471875,"speaker_score":0.831},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":44.00721875,"end":52.883468750000006,"speaker_score":0.831},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":50.28471875,"end":50.82471875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":51.516593750000006,"end":56.30909375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":57.237218750000004,"end":61.91159375,"speaker_score":0.831},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":61.08471875,"end":61.962218750000005,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":61.92846875,"end":61.945343750000006,"speaker_score":0.831},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":61.962218750000005,"end":68.86409375000001,"speaker_score":0.831},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":69.40409375,"end":69.97784375,"speaker_score":0.831},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":69.97784375,"end":82.73534375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":83.32596875,"end":84.70971875000001,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":85.11471875000001,"end":88.94534375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":89.72159375000001,"end":98.41221875000001,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":99.28971875,"end":102.88409375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":103.62659375000001,"end":105.11159375000001,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":106.37721875000001,"end":117.12659375000001,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":117.59909375000001,"end":123.35346875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":124.02846875,"end":128.41596875000002,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":129.49596875,"end":129.74909375000001,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":130.06971875000002,"end":144.95346875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":145.30784375000002,"end":146.92784375000002,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":147.85596875000002,"end":156.88409375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":157.40721875,"end":163.02659375000002,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":163.38096875000002,"end":165.01784375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":165.54096875000002,"end":165.96284375000002,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":166.58721875,"end":169.92846875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":170.29971875,"end":175.17659375000002,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":175.29471875000002,"end":176.62784375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":177.31971875000002,"end":177.52221875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":177.77534375000002,"end":178.02846875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":178.02846875,"end":184.60971875,"speaker_score":0.831},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":180.54284375,"end":182.66909375,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"廖委員偉翔","start":184.00221875000003,"end":186.90471875,"speaker_score":0.982},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","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謝謝主席 那有請石崇良部長 還有江志剛署長"},{"start":16.5,"end":23.5,"text":"以及那個賴建信常務次長 還有我們食安辦的徐福主任"},{"start":24,"end":25,"text":"調委員好"},{"start":25,"end":29,"text":"部長好 部長我想要先問你 石部長"},{"start":29,"end":35,"text":"今天我看到中時有刊載出來你們20%的決策的會議紀錄"},{"start":35,"end":40,"text":"那我是想要請問一下 到底有沒有分上下半場"},{"start":40,"end":43,"text":"你前面上次你說有分上下半場對不對"},{"start":43,"end":52,"text":"他是兩個議題啦 就是上半場第一個議題是在就這個中聯的事件進行了解"},{"start":52,"end":56.5,"text":"我問你上下半場你上次是說這個廠商是什麼時候列席"},{"start":56.5,"end":60.5,"text":"跟委員說因為這個會議不是我沒有出席"},{"start":60.5,"end":61.5,"text":"你沒有出席"},{"start":61.5,"end":68.5,"text":"那我是看這個會議的這個發言 所以他進來的時候是上半場進來"},{"start":68.5,"end":73.5,"text":"那可是我看你們會議紀錄根本沒有上下半場啊 你這個到底怎麼來的"},{"start":73.5,"end":76.5,"text":"部長你要不要老實一點"},{"start":76.5,"end":80.5,"text":"我的理解是兩個議題啦 就是上半場下半場"},{"start":80.5,"end":89.5,"text":"部長我真的很擔心耶 因為其實今天要嘛是你一直在找理由推脫 要嘛是你被架空"},{"start":89.5,"end":94,"text":"因為我看到這個會議紀錄 我覺得蠻神奇的喔 公佈的名單之後啊"},{"start":94,"end":99,"text":"我發現重點好像不只是誰出席了 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是誰決策這20%"},{"start":282,"end":285,"text":"我想這決策是整個專家會議整個確定下來的"},{"start":285,"end":287,"text":"可是你剛剛又說建議 到底是誰決策"},{"start":287,"end":290,"text":"不是 因為你們這樣推來推去 我也覺得專家學者很衰啊"},{"start":290,"end":296,"text":"好像都沒有行政官員的事 誰決策也不講 最後都說這是專家會議決策的"},{"start":296,"end":300,"text":"到底是決策還是建議 署長可以回答嗎"},{"start":300,"end":305,"text":"署長 等一下 我先問署長 因為你不在場 你當天不在場"},{"start":305,"end":309,"text":"是他們整體的結論是這個"},{"start":309,"end":312,"text":"結論是這個 但是總是有個行政官員要決策嘛"},{"start":312,"end":317,"text":"對 結論是這個 有這個結論 結論之後呢 其實在行政裡面"},{"start":317,"end":320,"text":"我跟長官 都有去了解這個內容之後的"},{"start":320,"end":323,"text":"你不能講誰決策的話 我問一下那個學府主任"},{"start":323,"end":328,"text":"請問你當天在現場 他到底是建議還是決策 那是誰決策"},{"start":328,"end":333,"text":"好 這個專家會議的功能是一個建議性質"},{"start":333,"end":340,"text":"政策上面該怎麼做 並不是在非常專家講的就怎麼算"},{"start":340,"end":347,"text":"所以在 就像署長剛剛講的 在會議上面是有結論"},{"start":347,"end":353,"text":"然後作為主管機關參考 就是作為我們政府機關的參考"},{"start":353,"end":360,"text":"所以今天像報宅也有講說 有議策說是不是院長有指示"},{"start":360,"end":363,"text":"事實上完全沒有 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以上 謝謝"},{"start":1301,"end":1302,"text":"謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:42:41.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:04.195652+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請石崇良部長，還有姜至剛署長，以及賴建信常務次長，還有食安辦的許輔主任。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:05.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:05.750000+08:00","text":"廖委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:06.571429+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:06.857143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:20.736842+08:00","text":"部長，我想要先問你，石部長，今天我看到中時有刊載出來你們20％這個決策的會議紀錄，我是想要請問一下，到底有沒有分上下半場？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:21.562500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:23.812500+08:00","text":"上次你說有分上下半場，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:24.290323+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:32.709677+08:00","text":"對，它是兩個議題，就是上半場第一個議題是在就中聯這個事件進行了解……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:33.195652+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:37.304348+08:00","text":"請問你，上下半場，你上次說廠商是什麼時候列席？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:37.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:41.264706+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，因為這個會議，我沒有出席、我沒有參加……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:41.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:42.300000+08:00","text":"你沒有出席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:42.759259+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:49.240741+08:00","text":"我是看這個會議的發言，他進來的時候是上半場進來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:49.672414+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:54.327586+08:00","text":"可是我看你們的會議紀錄根本沒有上下半場，你這個到底怎麼來的？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:54.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:43:57.200000+08:00","text":"部長，你要不要老實一點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:43:57.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:44:01.277778+08:00","text":"我的理解是兩個議題，就是上半場下半場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:44:01.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:44:10.235294+08:00","text":"部長，我真的很擔心，因為今天要嘛是你一直在找理由推拖，要嘛是你被架空。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:44:10.833333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:44:26.533333+08:00","text":"今天我看到這個會議紀錄，我覺得也蠻神奇的，公布了名單之後，我發現重點好像不只是誰出席，而是誰沒有出席，我發現衛福部本部沒有派人出席，衛福部本部沒有人！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:44:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:44:43.625000+08:00","text":"部長，過去我們在開協調會的時候，我覺得你也算是親力親為，很多協調會，你都很重視，你也會出席，或是至少部本部會派一個人，至少派一個技正、派一個公務員，都要到場，結果這場會議部本部沒有派一個人。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:44:44.370370+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:01.512195+08:00","text":"事情發生之後，我看你就一直要幫忙解釋、一直要幫忙拆彈，你到底是不知道、不知情，還是事後一直想要找理由，所以才講出很荒唐的有上下半場，可是剛剛我聽到許輔主任說是一整場，對不對？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:01.707317+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:05.804878+08:00","text":"一整場，廠商也是一整場列席，對不對？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:07.575000+08:00","text":"對，許輔主任也點頭。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:08.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:16.951220+08:00","text":"其實這是現在政府讓人家最擔心的地方，就是出了事之後，好像用掰的，你講到底有還是沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:17.536585+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:36.781250+08:00","text":"我剛剛就講了，上面食安辦有派人，下面食藥署有人，廠商也有派人，就本部沒有派人，所以你們根本沒有人可以還原當初會議室內的狀況，你當時有意見，也不能講，事後又要說你覺得這個決策很奇怪。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:38.806452+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這個是食安的專家會議……","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:38.806452+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:39.806452+08:00","text":"我替你抱屈，你到底是不是……","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:39.580645+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:41.645161+08:00","text":"這個是食安的專家會議。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:45.157895+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:47.684211+08:00","text":"你到底知不知情，開會的時候，你知不知情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:47.842105+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:49.894737+08:00","text":"我知道開這場會議，我當然知道……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:50.052632+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:50.842105+08:00","text":"事前還是事後？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:52.020408+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:55.693878+08:00","text":"事前我當然知道有開這個會議，因為過去……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:55.693878+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:56.693878+08:00","text":"你知道，你為什麼沒有派人？","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:56.693878+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:45:57.693878+08:00","text":"不關心嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:45:56.918367+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:01.964912+08:00","text":"沒有，因為過去食安的相關會議都是在食藥署召開，並沒有我們部出席……","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:02.350877+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:03.894737+08:00","text":"你們部本部都不用派一個人了解嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:04.087719+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:05.052632+08:00","text":"對、對，過去就是這樣。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:05.245614+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:06.789474+08:00","text":"這個不是很奇怪的事情嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:07.368421+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:11.807018+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，以往慣例就是這樣，各項的食安風險評估會議都是這樣進行的。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:19.840000+08:00","text":"這個慣例也很奇怪，這個東西，部本部派一個人列席知道發生了什麼事，食藥署列席知道發生了什麼事，這不是也很正常的事嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:22.586957+08:00","text":"因為這個是定位在食安的專家會議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:22.739130+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:24.565217+08:00","text":"所以你知道看起來是怎麼樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:25.173913+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:35.808511+08:00","text":"我今天看到會議紀錄，那個時候部本部沒有派人，看起來，部長好像不知情，事後今天來，在質詢臺上，大家質疑你，你一直解釋。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:41.739130+08:00","text":"好，我想要請教一下姜至剛署長好了。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:41.739130+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:42.739130+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:48.774194+08:00","text":"署長，我想要請教一下，你剛剛有說這20％只是建議，是不是？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:51.307692+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個會議裡面……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:52.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:46:56+08:00","text":"你就告訴我，因為我剛剛聽到你講，這只是專家建議，對不對？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:46:56.312500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:00.687500+08:00","text":"對，對於一些毒理，以及現在遇到的BaP……","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:04.846154+08:00","text":"沒關係，署長，你就回答我，你是不是說這個會議的專家只是建議？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:08.800000+08:00","text":"專家會議裡面，說明討論完，會有結論，結論會變成……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:12.333333+08:00","text":"結論是建議，那是誰決策20％？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:13.555556+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:17.814815+08:00","text":"整體的結論之後，針對這個結論，我們進一步去研議，如何面對第一層、第二層……","quality":0.613},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:21.600000+08:00","text":"署長，你回答我，是誰決策的？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:21.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:22.600000+08:00","text":"是誰決策這20％？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:23.315789+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:25.842105+08:00","text":"這個決策是整個專家會議確定下來的結果。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:27.866667+08:00","text":"可是你剛剛又說建議，到底是誰決策？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:28.260870+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:36.800000+08:00","text":"因為你們這樣推來推去，我也覺得專家學者很衰，好像都沒有行政官員的事，誰決策也不講，最後都說這是專家會議決策的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:39+08:00","text":"到底是決策，還是建議？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:39.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:40.750000+08:00","text":"署長，可以回答嗎？跟……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:41.227273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:45.772727+08:00","text":"部長，等一下，我先問署長，因為你當天不在場。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:48.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:49.636364+08:00","text":"結論是這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:47:52.684211+08:00","text":"結論是這個，但是總是有個行政官員要決策。","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:47:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:00.250000+08:00","text":"對，結論是這個，有這個結論，結論之後，在行政裡面，我們跟長官都有去了解這個內容……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:48:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:08.782609+08:00","text":"沒關係，你不能講誰決策的話，我問一下許輔主任，請問你當天在現場，他到底是建議還是決策，是誰決策？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-08-05T12:48:09.294118+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:20.681818+08:00","text":"這個專家會議的功能是建議性質，政策上面該怎麼做，並不是這些專家講了就怎麼算……","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:48:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:21.350000+08:00","text":"對，所以是……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-08-05T12:48:22.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:42.800000+08:00","text":"所以就像署長剛剛講的，在會議上面是有結論，作為主管機關參考，就是作為我們政府機關的參考，另外，今天報載也有臆測是不是院長有指示，事實上，完全沒有。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:48:44.130435+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:44.913043+08:00","text":"到底是誰決策的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:48:45.043478+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:46.869565+08:00","text":"你講了大半天，你沒有講誰決策啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-08-05T12:48:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:47.666667+08:00","text":"對，所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:48:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:56.666667+08:00","text":"所以食安辦從頭到尾代表行政院，你在現場，你也代表行政院最高的跨部會協調單位……對。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:48:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:48:59.250000+08:00","text":"所以誰決策的，你不能夠……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:01+08:00","text":"當場開完會是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:01.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:01.800000+08:00","text":"沒有決策。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:02.800000+08:00","text":"是沒有決策，對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:04.312500+08:00","text":"所以後續是誰決策？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:04.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:08.500000+08:00","text":"就是署長自己講的，是署長決策的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:08.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:10.750000+08:00","text":"還是行政院院長知道……","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:15.761905+08:00","text":"這個部分其實都有跟部裡面內部做報告。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:16.153846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:17.846154+08:00","text":"你也有跟行政院報告，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:34.750000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，按食安法，中央主管機關就是衛福部，所以這個專家所作出的決議、大家的共識就作為我們後續在處理各項預防性下架決策的參考。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:36.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:38.666667+08:00","text":"對，但是你們還是沒有告訴我誰決策。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:42.703704+08:00","text":"部長，我想請問，當初你也講，你覺得這個決策怪怪的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:43.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:49:55.722222+08:00","text":"你是一個醫者，醫者良心，以國人食安的最高標準的話，如果你當初在這個會議，之後你還會做出這種20％以下不用下架的決定嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:49:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:50:16.111111+08:00","text":"我想還原一下，一開始是只有第一層的油品下架，那個是106年的時候，當時我說我覺得怪怪的是因為，有一些即使是第二層的油品、第二層的加工食品，它還是會以油的形式存在，所以我後來才……","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:50:16.111111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:50:17.111111+08:00","text":"部長，你沒有回答我的問題，你不用再解釋，這些之前已經講過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:50:16.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:50:18.777778+08:00","text":"專家會議把它擴大，這是擴大。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:50:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:50:31.851852+08:00","text":"我只是一直很好奇，第一個，你們部本部沒派人，也不曉得當場的狀況，然後事後你又要一直找一堆東西來解釋、來收尾，我很想要知道到底是誰決策的，但是你們到現在沒有辦法回答我。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:50:32.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:50:34.500000+08:00","text":"我現在有請經濟部次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:50:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:51:04.800000+08:00","text":"次長，台糖自己也公布，5月11日前往中聯油脂進行封槽採樣，反正報告就是超標，之後又向廠商陸續收了201萬4,000公斤的原料，但是經濟部後來又說，這就像是餐廳採購人員在菜市場看到爛菜葉，不需要什麼都通報。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:51:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:51:08.777778+08:00","text":"我想要請問一下，這是經濟部的官方立場嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:51:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:51:19.793103+08:00","text":"我首先跟委員報告，經濟部對於台糖公司履行合約、履行法規，經濟部一直是要求我們國營事業如此。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:51:20.117647+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:51:21.764706+08:00","text":"為什麼你們經濟部當初要這樣子講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:51:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:51:31.722222+08:00","text":"基本上，5月15號通過第三方的驗證報告，認為這一批原料不符合允收標準的時候……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:51:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:51:52.818182+08:00","text":"次長，你們經濟部這句話，我講給你聽，這個是不倫不類的比喻，中聯不是路邊的陌生攤販，是國內黃豆加工跟食用油脂的大型製造商，台糖是國營企業，也不是餐廳的採購，現在經濟部用這個引喻失當，所以你現在還是認為沒有義務通報毒油的台糖是高標準的乖寶寶嗎？","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:51:53.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:51:57.545455+08:00","text":"第二個，我想要請教一下，哪一種青菜會產生苯駢芘？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:51:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:52:04.312500+08:00","text":"你把腐爛的菜葉比喻成致癌的物質，請問有科學根據嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:52:04.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:52:05.812500+08:00","text":"還是有專家會議嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:52:06.789474+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:52:20.866667+08:00","text":"就像是九品芝麻官裡面講的一樣，腐爛的菜葉很明顯就是長那個樣子，當然一般人不會吃，但是苯駢芘是沒有辦法知道的，沒有辦法用肉眼分出來的，次長，這個部分你有沒有覺得你們當初這個比喻是引喻失當？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:52:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:52:30.800000+08:00","text":"首先跟委員說明，不符合台糖允收標準的這些材料都還在中聯的311廠，這是第一點。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:52:31.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:52:34.142857+08:00","text":"第二點，所謂的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:52:35.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:52:36.800000+08:00","text":"次長，這個我都知道，前面報告都有講。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:52:37.857143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:52:46.750000+08:00","text":"粗膠原油的用途包括工業的添加劑也好，或是製造潤滑油、製造肥皂，它都有可能……","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:52:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:53:04.777778+08:00","text":"你講到這個我就馬上想要打臉你，剛剛台糖的人就說了，他們拿這個粗膠原油就是要來做他們的大豆沙拉油，你等於是想要把它模糊掉，當然它可以做很多東西，很多化學物質都可以做很多東西，但是在於台糖的角度……","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:53:05.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:53:07.812500+08:00","text":"賣方的提供者可以去做這些事情。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:53:08.153846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:53:12.875000+08:00","text":"我問你，中聯油脂除了拿去做食用油之外，他有拿去做肥皂嗎？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:53:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:53:13.800000+08:00","text":"他也沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:53:14.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:53:20.733333+08:00","text":"我想要講的事情是針對你們台糖，他就是拿這個要來做大豆沙拉油嘛！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:53:21.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:53:29.777778+08:00","text":"我就問經濟部，這次台糖事件有沒有影響相關產業上、下游事業供需或民生？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:53:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:53:34.769231+08:00","text":"你認為這起毒油案有沒有影響到台糖的事業形象？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:53:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:53:51.900000+08:00","text":"有關於影響到台糖商譽的部分，因為台糖的產品都經過第三方驗證，都是合格的，現在有預防性下架，未來台糖會清點相關的損失，如果有損失的話會依照法律的程序來處理。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:53:52.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:54:16.818182+08:00","text":"請教一下次長，因為依照經濟部所屬事業各類災害及緊急事件速報程序第三條第五款第一項跟第二項，你剛剛也有說，可能有這個疑慮，未來如果真的有影響到事業形象等等等的，但是依照你們的規定，你們的規則是一小時內要通報國營司、其他主管機關或地方政府。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:54:17.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:54:20.800000+08:00","text":"請問你覺得這個案件是不適用嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:54:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:54:21.800000+08:00","text":"還是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:54:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:54:35.812500+08:00","text":"涉及到四大國營企業、經濟部所管的國營企業，以及有跟災害防救法有關係的所有事故或是意外，他依照這個內部的作業規則會去通報，至於……對啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:54:36.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:54:37.818182+08:00","text":"你內部有這個作業規則。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-08-05T12:54:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:54:57.833333+08:00","text":"回到今天這個主題，臺中地方法院已經很清楚的在8月1號的新聞稿裡面提到，當台糖透過第三方公證驗出來這個結果的時候，他有跟福懋講，而且地方法院也認為，包括福懋跟中聯必須要依照食安法……","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:00.266667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:55:17.857143+08:00","text":"對，中聯的部分當然現在在調查，我跟你檢討是，台糖知道這個事情後，如果他當時就有依照你們的程序通報，是有可能讓這件事情提早被發現的，這個部分包含中央、地方、國營事業的環節都是現在要檢討的，所以我剛剛跟你講的就是這個點。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:18.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:55:20.750000+08:00","text":"再來我請衛福部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:55:32+08:00","text":"部長，你自己8月2號的時候，才說台糖是為了落實HACCP對原料粗膠原油定出允收的檢驗標準，對不對？對。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:33.230769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:55:36.142857+08:00","text":"你自己嘴裡都說它是原料了，對吧？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:36.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:55:36.857143+08:00","text":"它是原料嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:55:41.714286+08:00","text":"就台糖來講，那個是他的原料。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:55:42.900000+08:00","text":"對啊，它是原料，沒有錯嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:43.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:55:52.809524+08:00","text":"所以在你們主管的食品良好衛生規範準則第三條白紙黑字的定義，原料是指成品的構成材料。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:53.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:55:57.800000+08:00","text":"粗膠原油在台糖來講就是大豆沙拉油成品的構成材料。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:55:58.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:56:01.777778+08:00","text":"食安法第三條又明定，食品包含其原料。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:56:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:56:20.750000+08:00","text":"請問部長，過去法規對原料的定義是很明確的，但是為什麼我剛剛看到你跟很多的委員在爭論，怎麼到了台糖出事，這個粗膠原油好像又可以擴大解釋，變成不是原料，是所謂的半成品，到底是法律變了，還是怎麼樣？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:56:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:56:30.772727+08:00","text":"我再跟委員說明，我們對於不可添加的、不能檢出的，不論是在原料或者是在產品，這個都是違法，就是通報。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:56:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:56:39.769231+08:00","text":"但是苯駢芘是食品安全衛生標準，我們所定的是食用油脂的標準，不是定在脫膠原油，那不一樣。","quality":0.564},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:56:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:56:48.750000+08:00","text":"部長，我想請問一下，剛剛有委員在問你，你剛剛是不是有用豬排來比喻，你可以再講一次嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:56:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:10.428571+08:00","text":"一樣的道理，生豬肉要做成豬排，豬排要上市，我們管的是最後的這個產品不可以有生菌超量，但是你中間一定會去處理，所以你不會用生豬肉就來通報說這個有生菌。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:18.800000+08:00","text":"部長，我真的是越聽越覺得你們事後一直擴大用你的行政解釋去幫忙捍衛和解釋現在的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:18.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:19.800000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:23.851852+08:00","text":"你剛剛講到這個，那麼我問你，你知道寶林茶室食物中毒的元兇是什麼菌嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:24.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:30.750000+08:00","text":"它是不是有可能在製作的過程中會造成對人民食品安全的毒害？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:33.500000+08:00","text":"因為它本身就是食品了。是吧？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:34.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:34.857143+08:00","text":"它本身就是食品。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:35.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:41.785714+08:00","text":"但是這些菌在那個環境裡是會發生變化的，它會傷害到人民的食品安全。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:42.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:43.777778+08:00","text":"它本身就是食品。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:43.777778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T12:57:44.777778+08:00","text":"因為剛剛已經講是原料啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:57:44.307692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:58:02.714286+08:00","text":"我接下來就想要請教一下，你們食藥署在2024年3月11號的新聞稿裡面白紙黑字也寫著，食品業者於發現原料或產品有危害衛生安全之虞，應該主動停止製造、加工、販賣及辦理回收，並通報主管機關。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:58:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:58:04.800000+08:00","text":"這個你們白紙黑字講過啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:58:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:58:17.666667+08:00","text":"所以剛剛講了，在台糖的事件裡，它算是原料，你剛剛自己也講是台糖的原料，為什麼突然又變來變去，到底什麼情況要通報呢？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:58:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:58:29.846154+08:00","text":"沒有變來變去，我們是分成兩類，一種是不得添加的，像蘇丹紅，那個是不得添加的，所以那個沒有問題，另外是定有標準的，那就要看這個標準定在哪裡。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:58:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:58:33.833333+08:00","text":"這就是我一直講的，你現在一直用你的行政權去……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:58:34.111111+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:58:34.777778+08:00","text":"這個苯駢芘是定在食用油脂，不是在脫膠原油。","quality":0.316},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:58:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:58:53.857143+08:00","text":"不是，部長，你一直用你的行政權去做這種解釋，我們前面已經講出來，你們當初就已經白紙黑字發過新聞稿，你就用這一段文字來講就好了，食品業者發現原料或產品有危害衛生安全之虞，應主動停止製造、加工、販賣跟辦理回收，並通報主管機關。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:58:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:58:56.444444+08:00","text":"這一段文字是不是很明白？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:58:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:58:59.750000+08:00","text":"很明白是這樣子啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:59:06.800000+08:00","text":"我再跟委員說明，如果台糖來通報，讓我們有機會可以早一點介入，當然是好事。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:59:23.875000+08:00","text":"但是如果依法論法，你要去裁罰他的時候，你就必須看他違反的是哪個標準，我們定的標準是食用油脂的標準，並不是脫膠原油的標準，對於脫膠原油，我們沒有定標準。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:59:28.142857+08:00","text":"所以我一直在說，你就是一直把它混在一起想要擴大解釋，就想要推諉卸責。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:59:38.818182+08:00","text":"你們不是一直在講，食品安全是沒有妥協空間的，可是你們現在一直讓人民感覺你不斷的在解釋這件事情……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:39.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:59:42.833333+08:00","text":"脫膠原油還有其他的用途，所以我們定的不是脫膠原油……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:59:47.833333+08:00","text":"脫膠原油在別的地方有別的用途，對別人可能脫膠原油是這樣，但是在台糖的這個案例，他就是要拿來做大豆沙拉油嘛！","quality":0.592},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:59:48.750000+08:00","text":"就是這樣嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:59:51.750000+08:00","text":"就很簡單，它就是食品的原料。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T12:59:55.800000+08:00","text":"所以他拿回去的都是符合他的驗收標準的。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T12:59:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:00:03.800000+08:00","text":"但是他發現這個原料有問題了，既然他發現原料有問題，剛剛你那一句話就講了，他就要去通報主管機關嘛！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:00:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:00:12.833333+08:00","text":"我們原料也沒有訂苯駢芘標準，就像黃豆，真正的原料是黃豆，但黃豆我們沒有訂苯駢芘標準。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:00:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:00:24.782609+08:00","text":"部長，我再念一次，「食品業者於發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞時，應即主動停止製造、加工、販賣及辦理回收，並通報直轄市、縣（市）主管機關。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:00:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:00:27.800000+08:00","text":"」這句話到底哪裡可以讓你一直這樣解釋？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:00:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:00:29.866667+08:00","text":"你當然可以講說，這沒有辦法啦……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:00:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:00:34.761905+08:00","text":"我在解釋的是，我們訂的安全標準針對的是食用油脂、最終的產品，並不是原料的標準。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:00:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:00:37.625000+08:00","text":"好，我請法務部的同仁。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:00:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:00:48.857143+08:00","text":"蔡主任檢察官好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡主任檢察官妍蓁","start":"2026-08-05T13:00:49.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:00:49.750000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:00:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:01.789474+08:00","text":"法務部的代表、主任檢察官，我想請問一下，高檢署的主任檢察官陳宏達在8月3日公開表示，通報不是行政機關的恩惠，是法律明定的義務。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:10.687500+08:00","text":"他更警告，法治國最大的危險，不是法律沒有規定，而是有法不依，或以行政解釋架空法律。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:13.823529+08:00","text":"我剛剛問完全部的部會之後，都是各自解釋啊！","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:14.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:19.823529+08:00","text":"連媒體聯合報社論也說，這一巴掌是打在衛福部跟經濟部的臉上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:27.769231+08:00","text":"我想要請教法務部，第一個，陳宏達主任檢察官的這兩句話，站在你的立場，法務部同不同意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡主任檢察官妍蓁","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:35.777778+08:00","text":"每個人對於攸關國家健康權益的法規都會有他自己的解讀……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:36.083333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:36.916667+08:00","text":"你同不同意他的這個說法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡主任檢察官妍蓁","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:37.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:41.789474+08:00","text":"對於個案裁罰的部分，我想還是應該要尊重主管機關的權責解釋。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:42.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:44.875000+08:00","text":"法務部同不同意陳宏達主任檢察官的說法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡主任檢察官妍蓁","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:47.769231+08:00","text":"我們尊重主管機關的權責解釋。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:01:50.750000+08:00","text":"所以你不回答同意或不同意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:01:51.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:02:06.625000+08:00","text":"第二個，我想要請問，臺中地院裁定收押中聯廠長的理由，就是他5月接獲台糖通知超標卻未通報，現在經濟部、衛福部也對外宣稱，原料油依法免通報。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:02:07.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:02:14.857143+08:00","text":"請問法務部，偵查進行中，行政機關發表跟法院裁定理由相反的法律解釋會不會影響偵辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:02:15.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:02:21.785714+08:00","text":"檢察官認定的通報義務，是依食安法的條文，還是依部會的新聞稿和臉書貼文？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"蔡主任檢察官妍蓁","start":"2026-08-05T13:02:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:02:30.777778+08:00","text":"我相信我們檢察機關還是會依照法律的規定去蒐集證據，依法偵辦，不會受到其他的影響。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:02:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:02:41.538462+08:00","text":"是，所以我覺得各部會這樣提早不斷的幫忙解釋，我覺得好像有拋風向影響偵辦之虞。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"蔡主任檢察官妍蓁","start":"2026-08-05T13:02:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:02:43.454545+08:00","text":"我想這是委員個人的感覺。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:02:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:02:44.833333+08:00","text":"我們希望不要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡主任檢察官妍蓁","start":"2026-08-05T13:02:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:02:48.928571+08:00","text":"是，我們檢察官是不會的。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:02:50.615385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:03:29.736842+08:00","text":"最後的結語，部長還有各位行政機關的長官，其實同一批驗出一級致癌物超標的油，在大家看起來就是有三種說法，8月2日的時候說它不是產品，所以不適用食安法第七條第五項的通報義務，部長8月2日的時候說，這個是針對食用油品，所以它不是符合衛生標準販賣之食品，但是你們從頭到尾也不敢說它到底是不是原料，因為食安法第三條第一款白紙黑字寫著，「食品：指供人飲食或咀嚼之產品及其原料。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:03:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:03:38.818182+08:00","text":"」所以我們一直在表達的事情是，在食品良好衛生規範準則第三條裡面寫，「原料：指成品之構成材料。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:03:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:04:17.047619+08:00","text":"」所以在這個過程當中發現了這些事情，卻沒有主動通報，這在未來真的是一個很大的問題，所以我今天一定要特別提出來，而且不應該是行政機關自己就可以隨便做這個解釋，我們已經說了，連高檢署的主任檢察官都認為這個通報是義務，不是恩惠，我認為這件事情真的讓人民看到各部會都在官官相護、推諉卸責，一直在違背過去大家認為對於人民食品安全的最高標準，就是零容忍。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-08-05T13:04:18.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:04:18.800000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（廖委員偉翔代）","start":"2026-08-05T13:04:19.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:04:21.871429+08:00","text":"接下來請涂權吉委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}