{"error":false,"id":["170848"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170848,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170848","日期":"2026-08-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-08-05T12:42:41+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-05T13:04:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:21:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d053bb9b075f6aeac1de66ee23fd498dcd75ebd3fcd1029c8febdbf0d712d30d716be6cd68217e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"12:42:41 - 13:04:26","會議時間":"2026-08-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院食品安全辦公室、教育部、國防部、經濟部、台灣糖業股份有限公司及行政院消費者保護處就「從致癌油事件發展迄今，中央一味『蓋牌、吃案、當門神』有關行政究責之重做完整調查報告(含台糖失職、食安警訊斷鏈責任、團體訴訟求償進度)及未來如何確保安全無虞的國軍團膳、學生營養午餐」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午2時30分起，若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、審查行政院函請審議「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員郭國文等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員李彥秀等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員羅智強等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、審查委員盧縣一等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十、審查委員王育敏等25人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十一、審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十二、審查委員林月琴等24人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十三、審查委員林淑芬等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十五、審查委員李坤城等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十六、審查委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十七、審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第二十至二十二案，如經復議則不予審查；第一案及第二十三至三十七案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.953468750000003,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.328468750000003,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.195968750000002,"end":25.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.731593750000002,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":29.460968750000003,"end":35.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":35.65409375,"end":37.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.38784375,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":40.58159375,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":43.02846875,"end":43.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":44.00721875,"end":52.883468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.28471875,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":51.516593750000006,"end":56.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":57.237218750000004,"end":61.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.08471875,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":61.92846875,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":61.962218750000005,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":69.40409375,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":69.97784375,"end":82.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.32596875,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.11471875000001,"end":88.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.72159375000001,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.28971875,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":103.62659375000001,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":106.37721875000001,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.59909375000001,"end":123.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.02846875,"end":128.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":129.49596875,"end":129.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.06971875000002,"end":144.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":145.30784375000002,"end":146.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":147.85596875000002,"end":156.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.40721875,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":163.38096875000002,"end":165.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":165.54096875000002,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":166.58721875,"end":169.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.29971875,"end":175.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":175.29471875000002,"end":176.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.31971875000002,"end":177.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":177.77534375000002,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":178.02846875,"end":184.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":180.54284375,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":184.00221875000003,"end":186.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":186.78659375,"end":211.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":188.62596875,"end":189.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":192.81096875,"end":195.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":203.67846875,"end":206.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":211.33971875,"end":218.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":218.68034375000002,"end":222.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":222.35909375000003,"end":225.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":226.34159375000002,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":236.14596875,"end":240.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.78221875000003,"end":242.18721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":242.18721875000003,"end":248.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.70096875000002,"end":251.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.80596875,"end":251.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.82284375,"end":252.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.83971875,"end":256.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.58596875,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.00784375,"end":256.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.34534375000004,"end":261.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":259.95659375,"end":261.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.62721875,"end":261.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":261.64409375,"end":261.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.76221875000005,"end":261.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":261.88034375,"end":261.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.89721875000004,"end":261.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":261.96471875000003,"end":263.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.83784375,"end":272.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":268.69784375,"end":271.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.59596875,"end":280.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":278.38409375000003,"end":282.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.55221875,"end":285.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":285.23534375,"end":290.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":291.05721875,"end":296.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":296.74409375000005,"end":298.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":299.05596875000003,"end":300.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.33846875,"end":300.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":300.60846875000004,"end":304.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.45159375000003,"end":313.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":309.04596875000004,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.92284375,"end":320.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":318.24284375,"end":323.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":323.59221875000003,"end":327.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.11471875,"end":345.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":337.39596875,"end":338.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.62784375,"end":338.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.60659375,"end":339.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.33971875000003,"end":362.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":362.64096875,"end":367.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":367.11284375,"end":376.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.24221875,"end":376.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":376.41096875000005,"end":377.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.96346875,"end":382.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":378.52034375000005,"end":379.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.03034375000004,"end":384.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":386.33346875,"end":390.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.21034375000005,"end":391.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":391.22721875,"end":391.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.32846875,"end":396.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":396.28971875,"end":396.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.72846875000005,"end":396.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":396.84659375,"end":396.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.79159375,"end":397.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":397.80846875000003,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":415.18971875000005,"end":429.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":429.60096875000005,"end":432.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":433.34721875,"end":433.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":433.36409375000005,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":435.03471875,"end":455.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":453.41159375,"end":473.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":456.44909375000003,"end":457.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":458.03534375000004,"end":459.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.97596875000005,"end":460.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":474.89346875,"end":485.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":486.33471875000004,"end":488.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":488.39346875,"end":490.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":490.92471875,"end":503.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":504.49221875,"end":507.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.20471875000004,"end":509.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.46596875000006,"end":512.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.9465937499999,"end":519.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":519.29159375,"end":521.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.2197187500001,"end":520.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.3840937500001,"end":531.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":528.21846875,"end":556.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":556.5178437500001,"end":557.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":558.28971875,"end":566.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":566.7609687500001,"end":572.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":572.2622187500001,"end":576.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":576.27846875,"end":580.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.61534375,"end":585.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.6609687499999,"end":588.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.5590937500001,"end":591.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.9678437499999,"end":594.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":593.98034375,"end":596.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.85346875,"end":598.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.4353437500001,"end":606.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":605.6240937499999,"end":616.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.88534375,"end":609.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.11221875,"end":614.4834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":617.45346875,"end":624.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.7522187500001,"end":627.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":627.2578437500001,"end":632.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":632.55659375,"end":636.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.69159375,"end":633.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.0290937500001,"end":633.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":636.57284375,"end":642.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":643.5422187500001,"end":653.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.9328437500001,"end":671.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":661.78409375,"end":663.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":668.1628437500001,"end":669.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":671.20034375,"end":697.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":697.52534375,"end":701.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.55846875,"end":716.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":715.37909375,"end":717.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.30721875,"end":726.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":725.0990937500001,"end":725.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.00596875,"end":738.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":737.6709687500002,"end":748.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":749.70284375,"end":759.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":761.4309687500001,"end":770.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":770.91471875,"end":774.7959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":772.19721875,"end":772.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":775.6059687500001,"end":776.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":776.7703437499999,"end":777.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":778.0359687499999,"end":778.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":779.2509687500001,"end":781.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":781.29284375,"end":783.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":783.9253437500001,"end":797.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":797.9484687500001,"end":820.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":820.0378437500001,"end":821.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":822.0459687500002,"end":832.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":832.9809687500001,"end":841.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":838.66784375,"end":847.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":846.0928437500002,"end":847.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":848.67471875,"end":850.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":850.61534375,"end":856.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":857.4665937500001,"end":861.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":861.58409375,"end":870.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":864.5203437500002,"end":867.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":870.2409687500001,"end":882.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":876.8390937500001,"end":877.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":883.42034375,"end":890.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":890.7947187500001,"end":890.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":890.8115937500002,"end":892.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":891.0647187500001,"end":891.5203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":892.0265937500001,"end":892.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":892.38096875,"end":892.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":892.6172187500001,"end":892.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":892.6340937500001,"end":935.6822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":892.9040937500001,"end":893.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":894.23721875,"end":894.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":934.18034375,"end":935.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":935.6822187500002,"end":953.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":949.90784375,"end":952.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":953.97471875,"end":954.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":954.10971875,"end":954.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":954.2278437500001,"end":977.0259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":954.3290937500001,"end":955.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":977.0259687500002,"end":977.4478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":977.4478437500002,"end":977.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":977.48159375,"end":977.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":977.49846875,"end":977.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":977.9709687500001,"end":993.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":993.5634687500001,"end":999.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":995.45346875,"end":999.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1000.97159375,"end":1001.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1001.0053437500001,"end":1019.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1001.0390937500001,"end":1003.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1017.39096875,"end":1024.7315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1019.8884687500001,"end":1032.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1031.4309687500001,"end":1032.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1032.93284375,"end":1033.0172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1033.2872187500002,"end":1044.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1044.03659375,"end":1052.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1046.9390937500002,"end":1047.6478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1052.06909375,"end":1065.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1052.0859687500001,"end":1052.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1065.67034375,"end":1069.3153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1067.5603437500001,"end":1075.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1072.0828437500002,"end":1076.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1083.9290937500002,"end":1083.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1083.94596875,"end":1084.2159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1087.5909687500002,"end":1087.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1087.62471875,"end":1088.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1088.5528437500002,"end":1088.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1088.6878437500002,"end":1088.7215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1088.77221875,"end":1089.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1089.16034375,"end":1089.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1089.19409375,"end":1089.2615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1089.7003437500002,"end":1100.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1101.29346875,"end":1123.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1124.4122187500002,"end":1126.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1127.3484687500002,"end":1129.3397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1129.4747187500002,"end":1134.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1134.6553437500002,"end":1136.6634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1134.89159375,"end":1141.5909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1141.60784375,"end":1144.6622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1144.4765937500001,"end":1147.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1147.39596875,"end":1151.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1152.9309687500001,"end":1160.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1160.8284687500002,"end":1174.3453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1174.93596875,"end":1181.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1181.6522187500002,"end":1190.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1190.73096875,"end":1198.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1198.6959687500002,"end":1201.0753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1201.2272187500002,"end":1207.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1203.7584687500002,"end":1204.8722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1205.31096875,"end":1206.4247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1208.43284375,"end":1210.3397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1210.5928437500002,"end":1211.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1211.82471875,"end":1213.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1213.9509687500001,"end":1219.1990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1219.9247187500002,"end":1220.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1220.68409375,"end":1221.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1221.8653437500002,"end":1226.8097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1226.86034375,"end":1258.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1258.5515937500002,"end":1263.3609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1263.41159375,"end":1264.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1265.38596875,"end":1267.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1267.4278437500002,"end":1293.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1294.20846875,"end":1296.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1297.00971875,"end":1297.98846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0,"end":16.5,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請石崇良部長 還有江志剛署長"},{"start":16.5,"end":23.5,"text":"以及那個賴建信常務次長 還有我們食安辦的徐福主任"},{"start":24,"end":25,"text":"調委員好"},{"start":25,"end":29,"text":"部長好 部長我想要先問你 石部長"},{"start":29,"end":35,"text":"今天我看到中時有刊載出來你們20%的決策的會議紀錄"},{"start":35,"end":40,"text":"那我是想要請問一下 到底有沒有分上下半場"},{"start":40,"end":43,"text":"你前面上次你說有分上下半場對不對"},{"start":43,"end":52,"text":"他是兩個議題啦 就是上半場第一個議題是在就這個中聯的事件進行了解"},{"start":52,"end":56.5,"text":"我問你上下半場你上次是說這個廠商是什麼時候列席"},{"start":56.5,"end":60.5,"text":"跟委員說因為這個會議不是我沒有出席"},{"start":60.5,"end":61.5,"text":"你沒有出席"},{"start":61.5,"end":68.5,"text":"那我是看這個會議的這個發言 所以他進來的時候是上半場進來"},{"start":68.5,"end":73.5,"text":"那可是我看你們會議紀錄根本沒有上下半場啊 你這個到底怎麼來的"},{"start":73.5,"end":76.5,"text":"部長你要不要老實一點"},{"start":76.5,"end":80.5,"text":"我的理解是兩個議題啦 就是上半場下半場"},{"start":80.5,"end":89.5,"text":"部長我真的很擔心耶 因為其實今天要嘛是你一直在找理由推脫 要嘛是你被架空"},{"start":89.5,"end":94,"text":"因為我看到這個會議紀錄 我覺得蠻神奇的喔 公佈的名單之後啊"},{"start":94,"end":99,"text":"我發現重點好像不只是誰出席了 而是誰沒有出席啊"},{"start":99,"end":106,"text":"那我發現你們衛福部的本部沒有派人出席啊 你們衛福部本部沒有人耶"},{"start":106,"end":112,"text":"部長過去我們在開協調會的時候啊 我常常我覺得你是也算是親力親為喔"},{"start":112,"end":117,"text":"很多協調會你都很重視 你也會出席 或是至少你部本部會派一個人"},{"start":117,"end":123,"text":"至少派個記政 派個公務員都要到場 結果這場會議你們本部沒有派一個人啊"},{"start":123,"end":128,"text":"然後事後發生了之後 我看你就一直要幫忙解釋 一直要幫忙拆彈"},{"start":129,"end":137,"text":"那你到底是不知道不知情 還是事後一直想要找理由 然後所以才講出很荒唐 有上下半場"},{"start":137,"end":145,"text":"可是剛剛我聽到徐福主任說是一整場 對不對 一整場嘛 那這個這個廠商也是一整場練習嘛 對不對"},{"start":145,"end":154,"text":"對 徐福主任也點頭嘛 所以其實這是現在政府讓人家最擔心的地方 就是出了事之後好像用掰的"},{"start":154,"end":162,"text":"然後你講到底有還是沒有 所以我剛剛就講了 上面有食安辦有派人 下面食藥署有人 廠商也有派人"},{"start":162,"end":169,"text":"那就你們本部沒有派人 所以你們當初你根本沒有人可以還原會議室內的狀況啊"},{"start":169,"end":176,"text":"那你當時有意見你也不能講 然後你事後又要說 你覺得這個這個決策很奇怪"},{"start":176,"end":184,"text":"跟委員說明 這一個呢是這個食安專家的會議啦 這是一個食安專家的會議"},{"start":184,"end":190,"text":"那你到底知不知情 開會的時候你知不知情 我知道開這場會議啦 我當然知道 事前還是事後"},{"start":190,"end":200,"text":"那這個會議 事前我當然知道他有開這個會議 但因為過去呢 這個 沒有 過去在食安的相關會議都是在食藥署這邊召開"},{"start":200,"end":211,"text":"並沒有我們部處 本部都不用派一個人 過去就是這樣 這是很奇怪的事情嗎 這個以往就是慣例就是各項的食安的風險評估會議都是這樣"},{"start":211,"end":219,"text":"這個慣例也很奇怪啊 這個東西 部本部派一個人 列席知道說發生了什麼事 食藥署知道發生什麼事 不是也很正常的事嗎"},{"start":219,"end":226,"text":"因為這個是定位在是一個食安的專家會議 所以你知道看起來是怎麼樣嗎 看起來我今天看到會議紀錄的時候"},{"start":226,"end":235,"text":"部本部沒有派人 然後看起來好像 部長好像不知情 然後事後今天來在這裡質詢台上 大家質疑你 然後你一直解釋"},{"start":235,"end":241,"text":"好 那我想要請教一下這個 我們請一下江志剛署長好了"},{"start":241,"end":248,"text":"署長我想要請教一下喔 這個你剛剛有說會議紀錄是這20%只是建議是不是"},{"start":248,"end":251,"text":"跟委員報告 這個會議裡面其實"},{"start":251,"end":255,"text":"沒有你就告訴我 我剛剛聽到你講說這只是專家建議"},{"start":255,"end":260,"text":"對 一個獨立跟現在遇到的一個BAP"},{"start":260,"end":264,"text":"沒關係署長 你就回答我 你是不是說這個會議的專家只是建議"},{"start":264,"end":268,"text":"專家裡面說明討論完會有結論是什麼樣的結論"},{"start":268,"end":272,"text":"結論是建議嘛 那是誰決策20%"},{"start":272,"end":277,"text":"結論這整體的結論之後 我們針對這個結論之後進一步的去研議"},{"start":277,"end":279,"text":"是該決定的"},{"start":279,"end":282,"text":"你回答我是誰決策的 是誰決策這20%"},{"start":282,"end":285,"text":"我想這決策是整個專家會議整個確定下來的"},{"start":285,"end":287,"text":"可是你剛剛又說建議 到底是誰決策"},{"start":287,"end":290,"text":"不是 因為你們這樣推來推去 我也覺得專家學者很衰啊"},{"start":290,"end":296,"text":"好像都沒有行政官員的事 誰決策也不講 最後都說這是專家會議決策的"},{"start":296,"end":300,"text":"到底是決策還是建議 署長可以回答嗎"},{"start":300,"end":305,"text":"署長 等一下 我先問署長 因為你不在場 你當天不在場"},{"start":305,"end":309,"text":"是他們整體的結論是這個"},{"start":309,"end":312,"text":"結論是這個 但是總是有個行政官員要決策嘛"},{"start":312,"end":317,"text":"對 結論是這個 有這個結論 結論之後呢 其實在行政裡面"},{"start":317,"end":320,"text":"我跟長官 都有去了解這個內容之後的"},{"start":320,"end":323,"text":"你不能講誰決策的話 我問一下那個學府主任"},{"start":323,"end":328,"text":"請問你當天在現場 他到底是建議還是決策 那是誰決策"},{"start":328,"end":333,"text":"好 這個專家會議的功能是一個建議性質"},{"start":333,"end":340,"text":"政策上面該怎麼做 並不是在非常專家講的就怎麼算"},{"start":340,"end":347,"text":"所以在 就像署長剛剛講的 在會議上面是有結論"},{"start":347,"end":353,"text":"然後作為主管機關參考 就是作為我們政府機關的參考"},{"start":353,"end":360,"text":"所以今天像報宅也有講說 有議策說是不是院長有指示"},{"start":360,"end":363,"text":"事實上完全沒有 這樣子"},{"start":363,"end":366,"text":"那到底是誰決策的 你講了一大半天 你沒有講誰決策啊"},{"start":366,"end":367,"text":"對 所以"},{"start":367,"end":370,"text":"所以你食安辦從頭到尾代表行政院你在現場"},{"start":370,"end":376,"text":"你也代表行政院最高的跨部會協調的單位"},{"start":376,"end":379,"text":"所以誰決策的你不能夠承擔"},{"start":379,"end":381,"text":"當場開完會是 沒有決策"},{"start":381,"end":382,"text":"是沒有決策"},{"start":382,"end":385,"text":"所以後續是誰決策 就是署長自己講的"},{"start":385,"end":386,"text":"看你要"},{"start":386,"end":390,"text":"是署長決策的嗎 還是行政院院長知道"},{"start":390,"end":395,"text":"這部分其實都有跟我們部裡面的內部都有做報告"},{"start":395,"end":397,"text":"那你也有跟行政院報告對不對"},{"start":397,"end":402,"text":"跟委員說明 按食安法中央主管機關就是衛福部"},{"start":402,"end":406,"text":"所以這個專家所做出的決定 決議呢"},{"start":406,"end":410,"text":"大家的共識就作為我們後續在處理"},{"start":410,"end":414,"text":"各項的預防性下架的一個決策的參考"},{"start":415,"end":418,"text":"那對阿 但是你們還是沒有告訴我誰決策啊"},{"start":418,"end":422,"text":"部長 那我想請問啦 因為當初你也講說你覺得這個決策怪怪的喔"},{"start":422,"end":427,"text":"那你是一個醫者 醫者良心啊 那以國人的食安最高標準的話"},{"start":427,"end":430,"text":"如果你當場 當初在這個會議之後"},{"start":430,"end":435,"text":"你還會做出這種20%以下不用下架的決定嗎"},{"start":435,"end":440,"text":"我想還原一下 因為一開始呢 是只有第一層的油品下架"},{"start":440,"end":443,"text":"那個是106年的時候"},{"start":443,"end":448,"text":"那當時我說 我覺得怪怪的是因為有一些即使是第二層的油品"},{"start":448,"end":454,"text":"第六層的加工食品 他還是會以油的形式存在"},{"start":454,"end":458,"text":"因為我後來才 專家會議把它擴大 這是擴大"},{"start":458,"end":462,"text":"我只是一直很好奇 第一個你部本部沒派人"},{"start":462,"end":467,"text":"你也不曉得當場的狀況 然後事後你又要一直找一堆東西來解釋 來收尾"},{"start":467,"end":471,"text":"我很想要知道到底是誰決策的 但是你們到現在沒有辦法回答我"},{"start":471,"end":474,"text":"那我現在有請經濟部次長喔"},{"start":474,"end":478,"text":"次長 這個台唐自己也公布說5月11日啊"},{"start":478,"end":482,"text":"這個前往中聯有指的這個風潮採樣"},{"start":482,"end":485,"text":"反正他的 反正報告就是超標啦"},{"start":485,"end":490,"text":"好 那現在之後這個又向廠商陸續收了200"},{"start":490,"end":496,"text":"對 200億20億萬的4000公斤的原料啦"},{"start":496,"end":504,"text":"那但是經濟部後來又在說什麼 這就像是餐廳採購人員在菜市場看到爛菜業不需要什麼都通報"},{"start":504,"end":508,"text":"我想要請問一下這是經濟部的官方立場嗎"},{"start":508,"end":513,"text":"首先跟委員報告 經濟部對於台唐公司"},{"start":513,"end":519,"text":"他履行合約 履行法規 這個是經濟部一直是要求我們國營事業是如此"},{"start":519,"end":521,"text":"但為什麼你們經濟部當初要這樣子講咧"},{"start":521,"end":526,"text":"基本上5月15號通過第三方的驗證報告"},{"start":526,"end":531,"text":"認為這一批的原料不符合語化標準的時候"},{"start":531,"end":533,"text":"這個是不倫不類的比喻啊"},{"start":533,"end":540,"text":"中聯不是路邊的陌生攤販 是國內的黃豆加工跟食用油脂的大型製造商"},{"start":540,"end":544,"text":"台唐是國營企業也不是餐廳的採購"},{"start":544,"end":546,"text":"那現在經濟部用這個隱喻失當"},{"start":546,"end":550,"text":"所以你現在還是認為說這個沒有義務通報"},{"start":550,"end":552,"text":"台唐是高標準的乖寶寶嗎"},{"start":552,"end":554,"text":"然後第二個我想要請教一下"},{"start":554,"end":558,"text":"哪一種青菜會產生本扁皮"},{"start":558,"end":562,"text":"你把腐爛的菜葉比喻成致癌的物質"},{"start":562,"end":565,"text":"請問有科學根據嗎 還是有專家會議嗎"},{"start":565,"end":568,"text":"腐爛的菜葉就像是九屏芝麻棺裡面講的一樣"},{"start":568,"end":570,"text":"那也很明顯就是長那個樣子"},{"start":570,"end":572,"text":"當然一般人不會吃嘛"},{"start":572,"end":576,"text":"但是本扁皮是沒有辦法知道的 沒有辦法肉眼分出來的"},{"start":576,"end":580,"text":"是不是次長你這個部分你有沒有覺得你們當初的這個比喻是隱喻失當"},{"start":580,"end":582,"text":"首先跟委員說明啊"},{"start":582,"end":585,"text":"不符合台唐隱說標準的材料"},{"start":585,"end":589,"text":"這些材料都還在這個中聯的311廠"},{"start":589,"end":590,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":590,"end":592,"text":"那第二點的部分"},{"start":592,"end":594,"text":"這個所謂的這個"},{"start":594,"end":595,"text":"來次長這個我都知道啊"},{"start":595,"end":596,"text":"這個前面的報告都講喔"},{"start":596,"end":598,"text":"這個出膠原有的"},{"start":598,"end":600,"text":"事實上他的用途啊"},{"start":600,"end":602,"text":"包括是工業的添加劑也好"},{"start":602,"end":605,"text":"或是說是製造潤滑油"},{"start":605,"end":606,"text":"製造肥皂"},{"start":606,"end":608,"text":"你講到這個我就馬上想要打臉"},{"start":608,"end":611,"text":"剛剛台唐的人就說了他們拿這個"},{"start":611,"end":614,"text":"出膠原有就是要來做他們大豆沙拉油"},{"start":614,"end":617,"text":"那你這個你等於是想要"},{"start":617,"end":619,"text":"想要把它模糊掉嘛"},{"start":619,"end":620,"text":"當然他可以做很多東西啊"},{"start":620,"end":622,"text":"很多化學物質都可以做很多東西啊"},{"start":622,"end":624,"text":"但是在於台唐的角度"},{"start":624,"end":627,"text":"麥當的提供者他可以去做這些的事情"},{"start":627,"end":629,"text":"那我問你這個中聯油脂有拿去"},{"start":629,"end":631,"text":"除了做這個食用油之外"},{"start":631,"end":632,"text":"他有拿去做肥皂嗎"},{"start":632,"end":633,"text":"他也沒有嘛"},{"start":633,"end":636,"text":"那我想要講的事情是針對你們台唐"},{"start":636,"end":640,"text":"他就是拿這個要來做大豆沙拉油嘛"},{"start":640,"end":641,"text":"那我就問經濟部啊"},{"start":641,"end":643,"text":"這次台唐的事件"},{"start":643,"end":647,"text":"有沒有影響相關產業上下游的事業"},{"start":647,"end":649,"text":"然後還有供需或民生"},{"start":649,"end":651,"text":"你認為這起毒油案"},{"start":651,"end":654,"text":"有沒有影響到台唐的事業形象"},{"start":655,"end":658,"text":"有關於影響到台唐的這個商譽的部分"},{"start":658,"end":661,"text":"因為台唐的產品都經過第三方驗證"},{"start":661,"end":662,"text":"都是合格的"},{"start":662,"end":666,"text":"那對未來台唐會輕點相關的"},{"start":666,"end":668,"text":"這個這個"},{"start":668,"end":669,"text":"所以次長我就想要請教啊"},{"start":669,"end":670,"text":"因為事業損失的話"},{"start":670,"end":671,"text":"依照法律的程序來處理"},{"start":671,"end":672,"text":"那請教一下次長"},{"start":672,"end":674,"text":"因為依照經濟部所屬事業"},{"start":674,"end":677,"text":"各類災害及緊急事件的訴報程序"},{"start":677,"end":680,"text":"第三條第五款第一項跟第二項"},{"start":680,"end":682,"text":"你剛剛也有說這可能會"},{"start":682,"end":683,"text":"可能有這個疑慮"},{"start":683,"end":684,"text":"那未來如果發生"},{"start":684,"end":688,"text":"這個真的有影響到這個事業形象的話"},{"start":688,"end":689,"text":"等等等等的"},{"start":689,"end":691,"text":"但是依照你們的那個規定"},{"start":691,"end":692,"text":"你們的規則就是說"},{"start":692,"end":694,"text":"你一小時內要通報國營會"},{"start":694,"end":696,"text":"其他主管機關或地方政府"},{"start":696,"end":699,"text":"那請問你覺得這個案件"},{"start":699,"end":701,"text":"是不適用嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":701,"end":704,"text":"涉及到四大國營企業"},{"start":704,"end":706,"text":"經濟部所管的國營企業"},{"start":706,"end":709,"text":"然後有跟災害防救法有關係的"},{"start":709,"end":712,"text":"所有的事故或是意外的話"},{"start":712,"end":715,"text":"他依照這個內部的作業規則會去通報"},{"start":715,"end":717,"text":"那你內部有這個作業規則"},{"start":717,"end":719,"text":"回到今天這個主題"},{"start":719,"end":721,"text":"台中地方法院已經很清楚的"},{"start":721,"end":724,"text":"在他的8月1號的新聞稿裡面有提到"},{"start":724,"end":727,"text":"當台糖驗出來"},{"start":727,"end":728,"text":"他退貨"},{"start":728,"end":730,"text":"第三方這個公證驗出來的"},{"start":730,"end":731,"text":"這個結果的時候"},{"start":731,"end":733,"text":"他有跟服貿講"},{"start":733,"end":735,"text":"而且地方法院也認為說"},{"start":735,"end":736,"text":"包括服貿跟中聯"},{"start":736,"end":737,"text":"他必須要依照"},{"start":737,"end":739,"text":"所以我跟你檢討的是"},{"start":739,"end":741,"text":"這個中聯的部分當然他現在調查了"},{"start":741,"end":743,"text":"我跟你檢討的是台糖他知道這個事情"},{"start":743,"end":746,"text":"如果他當時就依照你們的程序通報"},{"start":746,"end":749,"text":"他是有可能讓這件事情提早發現的"},{"start":749,"end":753,"text":"這個部分中央地方國營事業這個環節裡面"},{"start":753,"end":755,"text":"這都是現在要檢討的事件"},{"start":755,"end":757,"text":"所以我剛剛跟你講的就是這個點"},{"start":757,"end":760,"text":"好那再來我請一下衛福部長"},{"start":761,"end":763,"text":"部長你自己8月2號的時候"},{"start":763,"end":766,"text":"也才說台糖是為了落實HACCP"},{"start":766,"end":768,"text":"對原料出交原油"},{"start":768,"end":770,"text":"訂出允收的檢驗標準"},{"start":770,"end":771,"text":"對不對"},{"start":771,"end":772,"text":"對嘛"},{"start":772,"end":775,"text":"那你自己嘴裡都說他是原料啦"},{"start":775,"end":776,"text":"對吧他是原料嘛"},{"start":776,"end":777,"text":"就他來講"},{"start":777,"end":781,"text":"就這個台糖來講那個是他的原料"},{"start":781,"end":782,"text":"對啊他是原料沒有錯嘛"},{"start":782,"end":788,"text":"那所以在你們主管的這個食品良好衛生規範準則的"},{"start":788,"end":792,"text":"第三條白紙黑字的定義原料是指成品的構成材料"},{"start":792,"end":794,"text":"那出交原油就是在台糖來講"},{"start":794,"end":797,"text":"就是大豆沙拉油的成品的構成材料"},{"start":797,"end":801,"text":"那食安法第三條用明定的食品包含其原料"},{"start":801,"end":804,"text":"請問部長這個過去這個法規啊"},{"start":804,"end":806,"text":"對原料的定義是很明確的啊"},{"start":806,"end":810,"text":"那為什麼我剛剛看到你跟很多的委員在爭論"},{"start":810,"end":813,"text":"怎麼到台糖出事這個出交原油就剛剛說到"},{"start":813,"end":817,"text":"好像又可以擴大解釋不是原料都變成是所謂的半成品"},{"start":817,"end":820,"text":"到底是法律變了還是怎麼樣"},{"start":820,"end":821,"text":"我在跟委員說明"},{"start":821,"end":825,"text":"我們對於不可添加的不能檢出的"},{"start":825,"end":830,"text":"不論是在原料或者是在產品這個都是違法就是通報"},{"start":830,"end":836,"text":"但是呢這個扁平比是食品安全衛生標準"},{"start":836,"end":839,"text":"我們所訂的是食用油紙的標準"},{"start":839,"end":842,"text":"部長我想請問一下你剛剛有委員在問你啦"},{"start":842,"end":846,"text":"你剛剛是不是有舉例說什麼豬排的比喻"},{"start":846,"end":848,"text":"你可以再講一次嗎"},{"start":848,"end":851,"text":"一樣的道理這個生豬肉"},{"start":851,"end":854,"text":"那麼他要做成是個豬排"},{"start":854,"end":855,"text":"他豬排要上市"},{"start":855,"end":861,"text":"所以這個中間呢我們管的是你最後這個產品不可以有生菌超量"},{"start":861,"end":864,"text":"但是你中間一定會去處理"},{"start":864,"end":870,"text":"所以你不會用這個豬肉就來通報說這個有生菌啊"},{"start":870,"end":873,"text":"部長我真的是越聽越覺得你們事後之後啊"},{"start":873,"end":878,"text":"你一直擴大用你的行政解釋去幫忙捍衛和解釋現在的狀況"},{"start":878,"end":879,"text":"你剛剛講到這個"},{"start":879,"end":883,"text":"那我問你你知道保齡茶室的時候他食物中毒的元雄是什麼菌嗎"},{"start":883,"end":890,"text":"他是不是有可能在製作的過程中他會造成對人民食品安全的毒害"},{"start":890,"end":892,"text":"因為他本身就是食品了"},{"start":892,"end":893,"text":"是吧"},{"start":893,"end":894,"text":"他本身就是食品"},{"start":894,"end":898,"text":"對但是這些菌他在那個環境裡是會發生變化的"},{"start":898,"end":901,"text":"他會傷害到我們人民的食品安全"},{"start":901,"end":903,"text":"所以他本身就是食品"},{"start":903,"end":905,"text":"所以我接下來就想要請教一下"},{"start":905,"end":907,"text":"那沒有原來剛剛已經講的是原料啊"},{"start":907,"end":910,"text":"那你們食藥署在2024年3月11號的新聞稿裡面"},{"start":910,"end":911,"text":"白紙黑字的也寫著"},{"start":911,"end":912,"text":"白紙黑字的也寫著"},{"start":912,"end":917,"text":"食品業者於發現原料或產品有危害衛生安全之餘"},{"start":917,"end":920,"text":"應該主動的停止製造加工販賣及辦理回收"},{"start":920,"end":922,"text":"並通報主管機關"},{"start":922,"end":924,"text":"這你們白紙黑字講過啦"},{"start":924,"end":927,"text":"所以剛剛講了在台糖的事件裡"},{"start":927,"end":929,"text":"他算是他的原料"},{"start":929,"end":931,"text":"你剛剛自己也講是他的原料"},{"start":931,"end":933,"text":"那為什麼突然又變來變去"},{"start":933,"end":937,"text":"那到底什麼情況要做通報呢"},{"start":937,"end":940,"text":"我們是分成兩類的"},{"start":940,"end":942,"text":"一種是不得添加的"},{"start":942,"end":944,"text":"像蘇丹紅那個是不得添加的"},{"start":944,"end":946,"text":"所以那個沒有問題"},{"start":946,"end":947,"text":"另外是訂有標準的"},{"start":947,"end":949,"text":"那你就要看那個標準訂在哪裡"},{"start":949,"end":951,"text":"這就是我一直講的嘛"},{"start":951,"end":953,"text":"你現在一直用你的行政權去"},{"start":953,"end":954,"text":"你用油紙不是在脫鈔"},{"start":954,"end":957,"text":"不是部長你一直用你的行政權去做這種解釋"},{"start":957,"end":960,"text":"這個白紙黑字我們前面已經講出來"},{"start":960,"end":962,"text":"你們當初就已經講過新聞稿"},{"start":962,"end":964,"text":"你就用這一段文字來講就好了嘛"},{"start":964,"end":968,"text":"食品業者發現原料或產品有危害衛生安全之餘"},{"start":968,"end":972,"text":"應主動停止製造加工販賣跟辦理回收"},{"start":972,"end":973,"text":"並通報主管機關"},{"start":973,"end":975,"text":"這句話是不是清清白白"},{"start":975,"end":977,"text":"很明白的這段文字啊"},{"start":977,"end":979,"text":"很明白是這樣子啊"},{"start":979,"end":981,"text":"我在跟委員說明就是說"},{"start":981,"end":982,"text":"台糖來通報"},{"start":982,"end":985,"text":"那讓我們如果有機會可以早一點介入"},{"start":985,"end":986,"text":"當然是好事"},{"start":986,"end":988,"text":"但是如果依法論法"},{"start":988,"end":990,"text":"你要去裁罰他的時候你就必須看"},{"start":990,"end":993,"text":"說那他違反的是哪個標準"},{"start":993,"end":995,"text":"我們訂的標準是"},{"start":995,"end":997,"text":"食用油脂有這樣子公告權"},{"start":997,"end":1000,"text":"並不是脫膠原油的標準"},{"start":1000,"end":1002,"text":"所以你現在"},{"start":1002,"end":1003,"text":"所以我沒有訂標準"},{"start":1003,"end":1004,"text":"所以我一直在說嘛"},{"start":1004,"end":1005,"text":"你就是一直把它混在一起"},{"start":1005,"end":1006,"text":"想要擴大解釋"},{"start":1006,"end":1008,"text":"就想要推諉謝哲"},{"start":1008,"end":1009,"text":"我們覺得食品安全"},{"start":1009,"end":1012,"text":"你們不是一直在講就是人民的最高"},{"start":1012,"end":1014,"text":"食品安全是沒有妥協空間的"},{"start":1014,"end":1018,"text":"可是你們現在一直讓人民感覺就是你不斷的在解釋"},{"start":1018,"end":1020,"text":"他脫膠原油還有其他的用途"},{"start":1020,"end":1022,"text":"所以我們訂的不是脫膠原油"},{"start":1022,"end":1024,"text":"有別人可能脫膠原油是這樣"},{"start":1024,"end":1025,"text":"在台糖的案例"},{"start":1025,"end":1027,"text":"他就是要拿來做大豆沙拉油"},{"start":1027,"end":1028,"text":"就是這樣"},{"start":1028,"end":1029,"text":"就很簡單"},{"start":1029,"end":1031,"text":"他就是食品的原料"},{"start":1031,"end":1033,"text":"所以他拿回去的都是"},{"start":1033,"end":1035,"text":"他符合他的運收標準的"},{"start":1035,"end":1038,"text":"但是他發現了這個原料有問題了"},{"start":1038,"end":1039,"text":"他發現了原料有問題"},{"start":1039,"end":1041,"text":"剛剛你那一句話就講了"},{"start":1041,"end":1043,"text":"他就要去通報主管機關"},{"start":1043,"end":1045,"text":"我們原料也沒有訂本便宜標準"},{"start":1045,"end":1046,"text":"就像黃豆"},{"start":1046,"end":1047,"text":"他發現了問題"},{"start":1047,"end":1050,"text":"真正的原料是黃豆"},{"start":1050,"end":1052,"text":"黃豆我們沒有訂本便宜標準"},{"start":1052,"end":1053,"text":"部長我再念一次"},{"start":1053,"end":1059,"text":"食品業者於發現原料或產品有危害衛生安全之餘時"},{"start":1059,"end":1064,"text":"應主動停止製造加工販賣及辦理回收並通報主管機關"},{"start":1064,"end":1065,"text":"這句話到底哪裡"},{"start":1065,"end":1067,"text":"你可以一直這樣子解釋"},{"start":1067,"end":1069,"text":"你當然可以去講說他根本沒有辦法"},{"start":1069,"end":1074,"text":"我們訂的安全標準針對的是食用油脂最終的產品"},{"start":1074,"end":1077,"text":"我請法務部的同仁"},{"start":1083,"end":1084,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":1087,"end":1088,"text":"蔡主任檢察官好"},{"start":1088,"end":1089,"text":"是委員好"},{"start":1089,"end":1090,"text":"部長"},{"start":1090,"end":1092,"text":"法務部的代表主任檢察官"},{"start":1092,"end":1093,"text":"我想要請問一下"},{"start":1093,"end":1097,"text":"高檢署的主任檢察官陳宏達在8月3日的時候有公開表示"},{"start":1097,"end":1101,"text":"通報不是行政機關的恩惠是法律明定的義務"},{"start":1101,"end":1105,"text":"他更警告法治國最大的危險不是法律沒有規定"},{"start":1105,"end":1110,"text":"而是有法不依或以行政解釋架空法律"},{"start":1110,"end":1113,"text":"我剛全部的部會這樣問完之後各自解釋"},{"start":1113,"end":1116,"text":"那也連那個媒體聯合報社論也說"},{"start":1116,"end":1119,"text":"這一巴掌是打在衛福部跟經濟部的臉上"},{"start":1119,"end":1120,"text":"我想要請教一下法務部"},{"start":1120,"end":1124,"text":"第一個陳宏達主任檢察官的這兩句話"},{"start":1124,"end":1127,"text":"站在你的立場法務部同不同意"},{"start":1127,"end":1129,"text":"我想說應該是"},{"start":1129,"end":1133,"text":"每個人對於攸關於國民健康權益的法規"},{"start":1133,"end":1135,"text":"都會有他自己的解讀"},{"start":1135,"end":1136,"text":"那你同不同意他的這個說法"},{"start":1136,"end":1137,"text":"這個說法"},{"start":1137,"end":1141,"text":"我們想還是應該要尊重主管機關的權責解釋"},{"start":1141,"end":1144,"text":"那法務部你同不同意剛剛這個陳宏達主任檢察官的說法"},{"start":1144,"end":1147,"text":"我們尊重主管機關的權責解釋"},{"start":1147,"end":1150,"text":"所以你不回答同意或不同意"},{"start":1150,"end":1154,"text":"那第二個我想要請問一下"},{"start":1154,"end":1157,"text":"台中地院裁定收押中聯廠長的理由"},{"start":1157,"end":1160,"text":"就是他5月接獲台糖通知超標卻未通報"},{"start":1160,"end":1163,"text":"那現在經濟部衛福部也對外宣稱說"},{"start":1163,"end":1166,"text":"原料由依法免通報"},{"start":1166,"end":1168,"text":"那請問法務部偵查進行中"},{"start":1168,"end":1173,"text":"行政機關發表跟這個法院裁定理由相反的法律解釋"},{"start":1173,"end":1174,"text":"會不會影響偵辦"},{"start":1174,"end":1178,"text":"那檢察官認定通報義務是依食安法的條文"},{"start":1178,"end":1181,"text":"還是依部會的新聞稿和臉書貼文"},{"start":1181,"end":1185,"text":"我相信我們檢察機關還是會依照法律的規定"},{"start":1185,"end":1188,"text":"去蒐集證據依法偵辦"},{"start":1188,"end":1190,"text":"不會受到其他的影響"},{"start":1190,"end":1195,"text":"是所以我覺得各部會這樣子提早的不斷的幫忙解釋"},{"start":1195,"end":1198,"text":"我覺得他有影響偵辦"},{"start":1198,"end":1201,"text":"好像有在拋風向影響偵辦之餘"},{"start":1201,"end":1203,"text":"我想說這個是委員的這個"},{"start":1203,"end":1204,"text":"我們希望不要"},{"start":1204,"end":1206,"text":"我們希望不要"},{"start":1206,"end":1207,"text":"我們希望不要"},{"start":1207,"end":1208,"text":"我們檢察機關的檢察官是不會的"},{"start":1208,"end":1211,"text":"好所以我想要講最後我要結語"},{"start":1211,"end":1214,"text":"部長還有各位檢察官行政機關的"},{"start":1214,"end":1219,"text":"其實同一批驗出一級致癌超標的這些有"},{"start":1219,"end":1223,"text":"在大家看起來就是有三種說法"},{"start":1223,"end":1224,"text":"一下子他到底是不是產品"},{"start":1224,"end":1227,"text":"8月2號的時候他想說他不是產品"},{"start":1227,"end":1230,"text":"所以不是用食安法第七條第五項的通報義務"},{"start":1230,"end":1233,"text":"那部長8月2號的時候說這個是針對食用有品"},{"start":1233,"end":1236,"text":"所以他不是符合衛生標準的販賣之食品"},{"start":1236,"end":1240,"text":"但是你們從頭到尾也不敢說他到底是不是原料"},{"start":1240,"end":1244,"text":"因為在食安法的第三條第一款的白紙黑字寫"},{"start":1244,"end":1249,"text":"食品是指人工人飲用或咀嚼之產品及其原料"},{"start":1249,"end":1252,"text":"所以我們一直在表達的事情是這個原料"},{"start":1252,"end":1256,"text":"在第三條的食品良好衛生規則準則裡面"},{"start":1256,"end":1258,"text":"原料是指成品的構成材料"},{"start":1258,"end":1261,"text":"所以在這個過程當中發現的這些事情"},{"start":1261,"end":1263,"text":"卻沒有主動通報"},{"start":1263,"end":1267,"text":"這其實是一件很未來真的是一個很大的問題"},{"start":1267,"end":1269,"text":"所以今天一定要特別提出來"},{"start":1269,"end":1271,"text":"而且不應該由行政機關"},{"start":1271,"end":1274,"text":"自己好像隨便可以做這個解釋"},{"start":1274,"end":1277,"text":"我們已經說了連主任檢察官"},{"start":1277,"end":1280,"text":"這樣子的高檢署的主任檢察官都認為"},{"start":1280,"end":1282,"text":"這個通報是義務不是恩惠"},{"start":1282,"end":1285,"text":"我認為這件事情真的讓人民看到的是"},{"start":1285,"end":1288,"text":"各部會都在幫忙觀官相互推諉謝責"},{"start":1288,"end":1292,"text":"這樣子一直在違背過去大家對於食品安全"},{"start":1292,"end":1297,"text":"認為說對於人民食品安全的最高標準就是領融人"},{"start":1297,"end":1298,"text":"好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":1301,"end":1302,"text":"謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}