{"error":false,"id":["170850"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170850,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170850","日期":"2026-08-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-08-05T13:22:24+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-05T13:57:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:35:03","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d053bb9b075f6aea9da6930f95a2da9dcd75ebd3fcd1029c8febdbf0d712d30d3af29b1e480214c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"13:22:24 - 13:57:27","會議時間":"2026-08-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院食品安全辦公室、教育部、國防部、經濟部、台灣糖業股份有限公司及行政院消費者保護處就「從致癌油事件發展迄今，中央一味『蓋牌、吃案、當門神』有關行政究責之重做完整調查報告(含台糖失職、食安警訊斷鏈責任、團體訴訟求償進度)及未來如何確保安全無虞的國軍團膳、學生營養午餐」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午2時30分起，若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、審查行政院函請審議「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員郭國文等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員李彥秀等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員羅智強等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、審查委員盧縣一等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十、審查委員王育敏等25人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十一、審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十二、審查委員林月琴等24人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十三、審查委員林淑芬等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十五、審查委員李坤城等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十六、審查委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十七、審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第二十至二十二案，如經復議則不予審查；第一案及第二十三至三十七案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":7.995968750000001,"end":11.590343750000002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":12.56909375,"end":13.56471875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":16.75409375,"end":17.395343750000002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":17.53034375,"end":66.55221875000001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":67.37909375000001,"end":88.32096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":89.41784375,"end":129.49596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":130.18784375,"end":135.75659375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":136.44846875000002,"end":168.44346875000002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":168.84846875000002,"end":190.24596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":190.41471875000002,"end":196.18596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":197.33346875,"end":230.86409375000002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":231.21846875000003,"end":234.77909375000002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":235.08284375000002,"end":237.88409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":238.30596875,"end":260.31096875000003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":260.66534375000003,"end":265.81221875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":265.99784375,"end":278.40096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":279.04221875,"end":289.48784375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":289.80846875000003,"end":298.49909375000004,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":298.70159375000003,"end":305.65409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":306.49784375,"end":311.98221875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":312.13409375000003,"end":316.99409375000005,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":317.24721875,"end":328.75596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":329.86971875,"end":337.96971875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":338.45909375,"end":349.14096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":349.44471875000005,"end":380.19096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":380.74784375,"end":390.51846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":390.94034375,"end":394.02846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":394.72034375000004,"end":397.20096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":397.28534375000004,"end":404.15346875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":404.59221875000003,"end":408.03471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":408.28784375000004,"end":429.38159375000004,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":430.05659375000005,"end":443.28659375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":444.06284375,"end":448.60221875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":448.99034375,"end":483.06096875000003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":483.80346875000004,"end":505.09971875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":505.28534375000004,"end":508.72784375000003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":509.90909375,"end":524.5903437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":524.7422187500001,"end":526.9697187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":527.22284375,"end":533.41596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":533.92221875,"end":538.1072187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":538.7822187500001,"end":540.03096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":540.03096875,"end":550.39221875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":550.8984687500001,"end":557.3784687500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":557.85096875,"end":559.6059687500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":558.86346875,"end":560.7534687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":560.53409375,"end":560.8884687500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":560.83784375,"end":589.94721875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":562.5928437499999,"end":563.89221875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":590.47034375,"end":591.87096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":592.34346875,"end":594.03096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":596.27534375,"end":599.1609687499999,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":600.2578437500001,"end":602.97471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":603.86909375,"end":605.3372187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":605.40471875,"end":607.5984687499999,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":607.75034375,"end":611.2097187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":611.42909375,"end":613.5890937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":614.8715937500001,"end":618.19596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":619.3603437500001,"end":621.03096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":621.41909375,"end":629.18159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":629.60346875,"end":629.87346875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":631.12221875,"end":633.50159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":633.7547187499999,"end":635.2397187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":635.35784375,"end":644.8415937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":645.1115937500001,"end":647.72721875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":648.16596875,"end":650.49471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":651.11909375,"end":652.35096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":652.89096875,"end":654.29159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":654.88221875,"end":656.5359687499999,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":657.8859687500001,"end":658.99971875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":660.2822187500001,"end":661.88534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":662.79659375,"end":665.0578437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":666.01971875,"end":675.16596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":676.43159375,"end":677.7140937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":677.91659375,"end":686.5903437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":687.8559687500001,"end":691.7878437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":692.1928437500001,"end":692.9015937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":693.6103437500001,"end":696.95159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":697.49159375,"end":697.9809687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":698.63909375,"end":699.48284375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":700.61346875,"end":702.11534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":702.87471875,"end":705.1697187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":705.35534375,"end":711.24471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":712.69596875,"end":717.6572187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":718.33221875,"end":727.0903437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":727.76534375,"end":733.75596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":734.5490937500001,"end":739.83096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":740.7422187500001,"end":743.7122187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":744.3703437500001,"end":747.86346875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":748.09971875,"end":753.8034687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":754.6809687500001,"end":758.6297187499999,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":759.08534375,"end":765.9028437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":766.4765937500001,"end":767.08409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":767.1853437500001,"end":773.1084687500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":774.72846875,"end":781.5290937500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":781.9678437500002,"end":788.6840937500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":787.67159375,"end":792.7847187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":789.2747187500001,"end":790.8103437500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":791.31659375,"end":791.9072187500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":792.68346875,"end":797.7122187500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":793.4765937500001,"end":794.77596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":795.11346875,"end":799.87221875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":799.75409375,"end":800.0915937500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":800.0915937500001,"end":802.0828437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":802.0828437500002,"end":802.26846875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":802.26846875,"end":802.4540937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":802.4540937500001,"end":803.66909375,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":802.4709687500001,"end":803.09534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":803.66909375,"end":811.24596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":811.3134687500001,"end":811.6172187500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":811.9040937500001,"end":818.0972187500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":818.87346875,"end":822.11346875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":821.7084687500001,"end":826.70346875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":827.7834687500001,"end":833.3015937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":834.0947187500001,"end":845.2490937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":846.39659375,"end":848.23596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":848.4384687500001,"end":849.0290937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":850.36221875,"end":855.98159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":852.77534375,"end":853.9734687500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":858.0234687500001,"end":862.0734687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":860.9765937500001,"end":861.4153437500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":862.5122187500001,"end":864.3515937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":865.4484687500001,"end":881.3953437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":881.6653437500001,"end":890.7778437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":890.96346875,"end":891.01409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":891.03096875,"end":898.1015937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":898.4897187500001,"end":907.2647187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":907.75409375,"end":912.2934687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":913.33971875,"end":916.47846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":916.74846875,"end":920.81534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":921.08534375,"end":921.79409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":922.08096875,"end":928.9153437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":928.98284375,"end":936.6440937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":937.0828437500002,"end":940.4578437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":941.1159687500001,"end":941.9428437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":943.46159375,"end":949.04721875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":949.24971875,"end":954.02534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":954.3290937500001,"end":955.6115937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":956.2022187500002,"end":959.18909375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":959.89784375,"end":961.8384687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":962.41221875,"end":965.1797187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":965.97284375,"end":968.74034375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":969.8372187500001,"end":976.3172187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":976.94159375,"end":982.94909375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":983.97846875,"end":985.6997187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":986.1384687500001,"end":990.72846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":990.98159375,"end":998.71034375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":998.8115937500002,"end":998.86221875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":998.86221875,"end":1006.6584687500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1003.08096875,"end":1004.76846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1006.00034375,"end":1014.48846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1015.14659375,"end":1015.61909375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1016.31096875,"end":1019.0447187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1019.6015937500001,"end":1031.9034687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1032.51096875,"end":1035.43034375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1036.5103437500002,"end":1042.9565937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1044.1040937500002,"end":1061.02971875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1061.6878437500002,"end":1066.1765937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1066.6322187500002,"end":1073.8040937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1074.4622187500001,"end":1077.5672187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1078.2422187500001,"end":1079.9803437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1080.6384687500001,"end":1082.3428437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1083.15284375,"end":1086.7303437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1087.8272187500002,"end":1088.18159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1089.88596875,"end":1094.7628437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1095.3197187500002,"end":1100.1965937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1100.4834687500002,"end":1102.79534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1102.96409375,"end":1107.60471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1108.04346875,"end":1109.02221875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1110.2034687500002,"end":1116.3797187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1117.32471875,"end":1124.4122187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1124.8172187500002,"end":1127.31471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1129.0697187500002,"end":1133.6934687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1134.04784375,"end":1137.8784687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1138.09784375,"end":1162.88721875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1163.8997187500001,"end":1170.0928437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1171.29096875,"end":1177.1297187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1177.65284375,"end":1184.5884687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1184.7572187500002,"end":1191.55784375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1191.82784375,"end":1195.08471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1195.6753437500001,"end":1198.6453437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1198.86471875,"end":1199.72534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1200.3834687500002,"end":1205.90159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1206.18846875,"end":1213.74846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1214.5078437500001,"end":1224.04221875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1225.6622187500002,"end":1227.0290937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1227.4678437500002,"end":1229.52659375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1230.1678437500002,"end":1238.5547187500001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1238.09909375,"end":1243.3809687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1243.70159375,"end":1246.94159375,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1246.68846875,"end":1249.3040937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1249.65846875,"end":1253.86034375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1254.3159687500001,"end":1267.09034375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1267.36034375,"end":1298.3934687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1298.57909375,"end":1304.4347187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1305.16034375,"end":1315.8253437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1316.56784375,"end":1328.1440937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1329.3422187500003,"end":1330.48971875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1331.2490937500002,"end":1333.4765937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1333.6622187500002,"end":1335.1978437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1335.5859687500001,"end":1337.25659375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1337.5940937500002,"end":1338.64034375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1339.1465937500002,"end":1340.1422187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1340.8509687500002,"end":1341.8128437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1342.5047187500002,"end":1343.9390937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1345.1540937500001,"end":1352.5115937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1353.28784375,"end":1354.70534375,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1354.70534375,"end":1355.9034687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1355.5659687500001,"end":1355.8697187500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1355.9034687500002,"end":1362.5015937500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1360.0715937500001,"end":1360.3753437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1360.9659687500002,"end":1364.0034687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1364.37471875,"end":1368.01971875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1368.5090937500001,"end":1370.4834687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1370.7703437500002,"end":1385.31659375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1386.3965937500002,"end":1389.41721875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1389.41721875,"end":1397.7703437500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1397.7703437500002,"end":1423.04909375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1402.91721875,"end":1403.18721875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1424.02784375,"end":1428.7528437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1429.2759687500002,"end":1433.6297187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1434.5072187500002,"end":1435.3340937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1435.7897187500002,"end":1441.1222187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1441.6959687500002,"end":1464.5447187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1465.0509687500003,"end":1467.7172187500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1469.2359687500002,"end":1476.72846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1477.2178437500002,"end":1493.9747187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1494.2784687500002,"end":1501.21409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1501.21409375,"end":1511.4234687500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1506.6647187500002,"end":1509.78659375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1510.1072187500001,"end":1513.3978437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1513.3978437500002,"end":1516.0303437500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1516.0303437500002,"end":1516.0809687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1516.0809687500002,"end":1516.9078437500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1516.9078437500002,"end":1522.59471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1517.0259687500002,"end":1517.0597187500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1523.4722187500001,"end":1545.1228437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1545.6290937500003,"end":1555.8047187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1556.49659375,"end":1564.6978437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1565.5753437500002,"end":1570.0303437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1570.0809687500002,"end":1572.1565937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1572.64596875,"end":1573.2534687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1573.6922187500002,"end":1575.9534687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1576.32471875,"end":1578.8897187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1578.97409375,"end":1578.99096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1579.0922187500003,"end":1581.3028437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1581.5390937500001,"end":1585.74096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1585.7915937500002,"end":1586.58471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1586.85471875,"end":1597.7897187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1598.2284687500003,"end":1599.0722187500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1599.9159687500003,"end":1608.4040937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1609.3153437500002,"end":1610.3784687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1611.2390937500002,"end":1614.1078437500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1614.4622187500001,"end":1619.18721875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1619.49096875,"end":1621.8028437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1622.73096875,"end":1626.79784375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1627.62471875,"end":1631.2190937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1632.2147187500002,"end":1634.4590937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1636.09596875,"end":1638.2222187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1638.47534375,"end":1640.4159687500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1640.7534687500001,"end":1642.27221875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1643.3522187500002,"end":1647.2672187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1647.48659375,"end":1654.2872187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1655.3165937500003,"end":1663.5347187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1663.6697187500001,"end":1670.3184687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1670.8584687500002,"end":1671.8372187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1672.4615937500002,"end":1673.8622187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1674.7059687500002,"end":1676.8153437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1678.26659375,"end":1680.8653437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1681.6753437500001,"end":1685.1347187500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1685.9615937500002,"end":1689.0328437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1689.6909687500001,"end":1695.42846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1695.7828437500002,"end":1696.4578437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1698.1790937500002,"end":1699.6978437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1699.6978437500002,"end":1699.7484687500003,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1699.7484687500003,"end":1699.8834687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1699.8834687500002,"end":1706.26221875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1706.26221875,"end":1711.9153437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1712.2697187500003,"end":1717.78784375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1718.2265937500001,"end":1722.4790937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1724.7065937500001,"end":1728.8240937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1724.9259687500003,"end":1726.0228437500002,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1726.0228437500002,"end":1726.91721875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1726.91721875,"end":1727.0353437500003,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1729.58346875,"end":1731.2540937500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1731.6759687500003,"end":1736.21534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1736.63721875,"end":1740.97409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1741.5815937500001,"end":1748.6015937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1749.3272187500002,"end":1752.1453437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1752.8878437500002,"end":1756.88721875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1756.9715937500002,"end":1758.1190937500003,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1758.86159375,"end":1759.0472187500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1760.97096875,"end":1761.24096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1761.4603437500002,"end":1765.9828437500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1766.2528437500002,"end":1766.4722187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1766.7590937500001,"end":1768.9190937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1769.2903437500001,"end":1772.1590937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1773.3909687500002,"end":1780.4447187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1780.7315937500002,"end":1781.49096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1782.06471875,"end":1791.4978437500001,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1785.5915937500001,"end":1786.9247187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1790.2659687500002,"end":1811.3259687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1811.8322187500003,"end":1816.3884687500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1817.2828437500002,"end":1819.61159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1820.1347187500003,"end":1822.26096875,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1822.6659687500003,"end":1833.1453437500002,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1833.3309687500002,"end":1838.0728437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1838.4947187500002,"end":1844.3840937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1845.4134687500002,"end":1847.6747187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1847.6747187500002,"end":1854.4247187500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1853.5134687500001,"end":1867.4522187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1860.7697187500003,"end":1861.2759687500002,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1861.9003437500003,"end":1862.1365937500002,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1868.2115937500002,"end":1880.1590937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1881.0197187500003,"end":1888.8328437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1889.3053437500002,"end":1905.5390937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":1906.36596875,"end":1916.8959687500003,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1906.78784375,"end":1908.3909687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1913.1328437500001,"end":1914.7359687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1916.5922187500003,"end":1920.3384687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1920.3722187500002,"end":1924.0678437500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1923.51096875,"end":1924.1184687500001,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1924.64159375,"end":1926.19409375,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1925.8059687500001,"end":1928.9278437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1928.9784687500003,"end":1938.7490937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1939.3059687500001,"end":1940.5547187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1941.66846875,"end":1942.3940937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":1942.51221875,"end":1946.6465937500002,"speaker_score":0.908},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1946.2415937500002,"end":1950.5615937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1950.7134687500002,"end":1964.02784375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1964.5003437500002,"end":1970.1028437500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1970.6090937500003,"end":1974.01784375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1975.0472187500002,"end":1981.1559687500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1981.32471875,"end":1983.2653437500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1984.0247187500001,"end":1990.16721875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1990.2347187500002,"end":1995.0440937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1995.4828437500003,"end":2000.8490937500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2002.41846875,"end":2008.2234687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2008.9828437500003,"end":2009.5734687500003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":2010.3834687500002,"end":2027.8153437500002,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2016.4415937500003,"end":2016.7959687500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2016.8297187500002,"end":2016.8465937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2026.5665937500003,"end":2033.8565937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2034.4134687500002,"end":2040.5728437500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2041.1128437500001,"end":2048.4365937500006,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2048.9597187500003,"end":2065.0078437500006,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2065.8347187500003,"end":2084.02596875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2084.49846875,"end":2085.40971875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2085.7809687500003,"end":2092.1259687500005,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2092.34534375,"end":2093.54346875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2093.71221875,"end":2093.9315937500005,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":2094.57284375,"end":2096.91846875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":2101.44096875,"end":2101.84596875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":2102.20034375,"end":2103.95534375,"speaker_score":0.805}],"whisperx":[{"start":0,"end":12,"text":"主席 各位大家午安 是不是請我們石部長"},{"start":12,"end":14,"text":"好 請石部長"},{"start":14,"end":18,"text":"好 委員好"},{"start":18,"end":24,"text":"部長 午安 我現在在這裡跟你溝通最重要的一個觀念"},{"start":24,"end":29,"text":"就是我們的石安法 它不是用來 只是用來事後究責"},{"start":29,"end":34,"text":"整個石安法最重要的精神是在於事前預防"},{"start":34,"end":37,"text":"這幾年發生這麼多的重大的石安事件以後"},{"start":37,"end":40,"text":"我們一修再修又修"},{"start":40,"end":45,"text":"從源頭管理 業者自主管理 追溯追蹤 HACCP"},{"start":45,"end":51,"text":"到這一次我們還要再修 強化異常通報 品質管理及數位治理"},{"start":51,"end":54,"text":"這整個核心概念非常的清楚"},{"start":54,"end":59,"text":"所以石安絕對不能夠等到產品出事以後才補救"},{"start":59,"end":66,"text":"而是要讓風險在進入市場以前要被辨識 被通報 被處理"},{"start":66,"end":70,"text":"所以這個中聯這個獨有的案件"},{"start":70,"end":77,"text":"中聯它們全部都是HACCP的制度運作的"},{"start":77,"end":82,"text":"從你們以前的所謂的2021年的"},{"start":82,"end":86,"text":"實用油脂工廠實施衛生管理及食品安全管制系統"},{"start":86,"end":89,"text":"概況的調查報告"},{"start":89,"end":92,"text":"我們就可以看得出來 裡面的調查報告說"},{"start":92,"end":97,"text":"他們的數據經常造假 那為什麼要經常造假"},{"start":97,"end":102,"text":"因為他們進行了危害分析以後要設管制點"},{"start":102,"end":106,"text":"設完管制點以後發現檢查起來都還是異常的話"},{"start":106,"end":110,"text":"他們要做矯正 矯正措施做好用"},{"start":110,"end":113,"text":"還要回去把他們的危害重新分析"},{"start":113,"end":115,"text":"然後再重新設管制點"},{"start":115,"end":117,"text":"你們的調查報告說"},{"start":117,"end":120,"text":"你們這次獨有事件來講說"},{"start":120,"end":123,"text":"他們都沒有設好管制點 沒有照落實"},{"start":123,"end":126,"text":"他們當然不能設好管制點"},{"start":126,"end":129,"text":"因為他們設的管制點還是不通過"},{"start":129,"end":133,"text":"所以他們的問題就是他們必須要造假"},{"start":133,"end":136,"text":"否則就不能符合HACCP"},{"start":136,"end":138,"text":"所以在這個過程裡面"},{"start":138,"end":143,"text":"整個危害預警的制度HACCP"},{"start":143,"end":146,"text":"是瓦解淪於紙上作業"},{"start":146,"end":147,"text":"這是我講過的"},{"start":147,"end":151,"text":"但是它並不是只是如此而已"},{"start":151,"end":156,"text":"我要講說從大家講了一整個早上"},{"start":156,"end":158,"text":"都在講台糖台糖"},{"start":158,"end":160,"text":"那所值的爭點都說"},{"start":160,"end":162,"text":"到底有沒有通報義務或是沒有通報義務"},{"start":162,"end":163,"text":"我現在要告訴你"},{"start":163,"end":168,"text":"我不想只是談通報義務這個概念"},{"start":168,"end":173,"text":"不能夠只問責台糖有沒有通報義務"},{"start":173,"end":176,"text":"也不是只問責中聯要怎麼裁罰"},{"start":176,"end":178,"text":"怎麼處罰的更重"},{"start":178,"end":181,"text":"甚至說回到不是只有這樣子"},{"start":181,"end":183,"text":"因為對人民來講"},{"start":183,"end":187,"text":"我們希望不管食安法還是HACCP的制度"},{"start":187,"end":190,"text":"都能夠要發揮預警的作用"},{"start":190,"end":194,"text":"不能夠做到只是事後究責"},{"start":194,"end":196,"text":"還要事前預防"},{"start":197,"end":200,"text":"在這個地方我們知道台糖的責任"},{"start":200,"end":201,"text":"有沒有責任"},{"start":201,"end":205,"text":"釐清中聯這個始作俑者最過分的"},{"start":205,"end":207,"text":"我們要問責清楚"},{"start":207,"end":208,"text":"可是更重要的是"},{"start":208,"end":210,"text":"現行的食安法"},{"start":210,"end":212,"text":"現行的HACCP制度"},{"start":212,"end":214,"text":"現行的所有安全管理的制度"},{"start":214,"end":218,"text":"有沒有辦法讓重大的食安警訊"},{"start":218,"end":222,"text":"在供應鏈生產鏈的供應鏈的內部"},{"start":222,"end":224,"text":"你們就要掌握"},{"start":224,"end":226,"text":"不是只有業者掌握"},{"start":226,"end":230,"text":"現在的問題就是所有的重大的風險"},{"start":230,"end":234,"text":"在還沒成為產品以前就發現到的"},{"start":234,"end":237,"text":"不能只是業者知道"},{"start":237,"end":241,"text":"而是政府也要管制要知道"},{"start":241,"end":244,"text":"否則我們修了這麼多次的食安法"},{"start":244,"end":246,"text":"每一次發生單一事件"},{"start":246,"end":247,"text":"每一次發生單一事件"},{"start":247,"end":249,"text":"系統性的風暴"},{"start":249,"end":252,"text":"每次都還是在等下游減出鈔票"},{"start":252,"end":254,"text":"產品大家都吃下肚"},{"start":254,"end":257,"text":"等媒體大幅報導"},{"start":257,"end":260,"text":"然後吹哨者出現才開始補救"},{"start":260,"end":263,"text":"這個是不能夠這樣的"},{"start":263,"end":266,"text":"所以我今天就開始要來講說"},{"start":266,"end":268,"text":"中聯獨有案件"},{"start":268,"end":271,"text":"為什麼重大的食安警訊"},{"start":271,"end":276,"text":"卻斷訊在供應鏈的業者的內部"},{"start":276,"end":278,"text":"就斷訊了"},{"start":278,"end":280,"text":"我現在講的是這件事"},{"start":280,"end":284,"text":"當然我們的食安法一定要管理原料"},{"start":284,"end":286,"text":"這個是開宗明義就講"},{"start":286,"end":289,"text":"我們食安法不是只有管產品來管原料"},{"start":289,"end":293,"text":"但是在現行的第七條裡面"},{"start":293,"end":295,"text":"的確也規定"},{"start":295,"end":298,"text":"當你進入生產程序"},{"start":298,"end":302,"text":"成為產品發現異常才客折"},{"start":302,"end":304,"text":"業者要通報"},{"start":304,"end":306,"text":"可是這樣子是不行的"},{"start":306,"end":309,"text":"要管原料那什麼時候要管到哪裡"},{"start":309,"end":312,"text":"在客折通報的時候"},{"start":312,"end":315,"text":"沒有把原料這一環放進去"},{"start":315,"end":317,"text":"而獨有事件"},{"start":317,"end":319,"text":"台航事件"},{"start":319,"end":324,"text":"就是把重大的14.7PPB的原料"},{"start":324,"end":326,"text":"這個重大的風險"},{"start":326,"end":329,"text":"竟然斷訊在供應鏈的內部"},{"start":329,"end":331,"text":"政府不知道"},{"start":331,"end":332,"text":"更不要講人民"},{"start":332,"end":333,"text":"通通都不知道"},{"start":333,"end":335,"text":"而是大家都吃下肚了"},{"start":335,"end":338,"text":"所以我們在這裡要講說"},{"start":338,"end":340,"text":"高風險原料的管理"},{"start":340,"end":343,"text":"製程的管控監測的管制"},{"start":343,"end":345,"text":"這個是你們說"},{"start":345,"end":348,"text":"獨立調查的結果發現了很多原因"},{"start":348,"end":352,"text":"但是我們要講再講一遍"},{"start":352,"end":354,"text":"前面早就出現了風險訊號"},{"start":354,"end":356,"text":"譬如說原料的來源"},{"start":356,"end":358,"text":"傳奇的差異"},{"start":358,"end":359,"text":"油槽的檢驗"},{"start":359,"end":361,"text":"製程的參數"},{"start":361,"end":362,"text":"管制的界線"},{"start":362,"end":364,"text":"下游的檢驗"},{"start":364,"end":366,"text":"拒收退貨的紀錄"},{"start":366,"end":367,"text":"這些訊號"},{"start":367,"end":370,"text":"通通沒有被整合"},{"start":370,"end":373,"text":"沒有進入主管機關的預警系統"},{"start":373,"end":376,"text":"也沒有變成跨縣市的"},{"start":376,"end":377,"text":"跨業者的"},{"start":377,"end":380,"text":"跨供應鏈的風險警示"},{"start":380,"end":382,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":382,"end":384,"text":"我們通通都吃下肚以後"},{"start":384,"end":386,"text":"才發現問題"},{"start":386,"end":388,"text":"然後發現問題的時候"},{"start":388,"end":389,"text":"已經都來不及了"},{"start":389,"end":390,"text":"因為都吃進去了"},{"start":390,"end":393,"text":"一次又一次都是吃完了"},{"start":393,"end":394,"text":"才再說"},{"start":394,"end":396,"text":"啊你可以退貨"},{"start":396,"end":397,"text":"你可以退款"},{"start":397,"end":398,"text":"吃進去了"},{"start":398,"end":400,"text":"我的健康怎麼退款"},{"start":400,"end":401,"text":"我的健康怎麼退貨"},{"start":401,"end":403,"text":"所以我在這裡講清楚"},{"start":403,"end":408,"text":"這個問題不是先說在台糖一間公司"},{"start":408,"end":409,"text":"要怎麼做而已"},{"start":409,"end":412,"text":"也不是說台糖這個案子"},{"start":412,"end":413,"text":"要不要通報"},{"start":413,"end":414,"text":"有沒有通報義務"},{"start":414,"end":417,"text":"我們要講是問題有品"},{"start":417,"end":420,"text":"有沒有實際進入台糖工廠"},{"start":420,"end":423,"text":"重大的訊號就已經出現了"},{"start":423,"end":427,"text":"為什麼主管機關沒有同步掌握"},{"start":427,"end":429,"text":"今天是本篇皮"},{"start":429,"end":431,"text":"明天有可能是重金屬"},{"start":431,"end":432,"text":"農藥殘留"},{"start":432,"end":434,"text":"塑化劑"},{"start":434,"end":435,"text":"黃麴毒素"},{"start":435,"end":437,"text":"或是其他污染物"},{"start":437,"end":441,"text":"只要制度面仍然只看到產品"},{"start":441,"end":443,"text":"有沒有進貨"},{"start":443,"end":445,"text":"所有權有沒有移轉"},{"start":445,"end":447,"text":"啊我沒有買啊"},{"start":447,"end":448,"text":"還在他那裡"},{"start":448,"end":451,"text":"業者有沒有製成自己的產品"},{"start":451,"end":452,"text":"如果只是制度面"},{"start":452,"end":454,"text":"現在的只看到這個"},{"start":454,"end":457,"text":"那麼主管機關就會"},{"start":457,"end":459,"text":"看不到供應鏈前端"},{"start":459,"end":462,"text":"已經出現的風險訊號"},{"start":462,"end":464,"text":"所以我再講一遍就是說"},{"start":464,"end":466,"text":"實驗法管制的精神"},{"start":466,"end":469,"text":"人民想要的制度"},{"start":469,"end":472,"text":"就是在成為產品以前"},{"start":472,"end":474,"text":"供應鏈的前端"},{"start":474,"end":476,"text":"就已經出現了風險的訊號"},{"start":476,"end":480,"text":"我們要怎麼來設計成政府"},{"start":480,"end":483,"text":"一定要就馬上介入和管制"},{"start":483,"end":485,"text":"實驗制度不能靠吹哨者"},{"start":485,"end":487,"text":"當最後一道防線"},{"start":487,"end":489,"text":"那都已經來不及"},{"start":489,"end":491,"text":"真正的預警制度"},{"start":491,"end":494,"text":"應該是重大的異常"},{"start":494,"end":497,"text":"發現了還停留在供應鏈"},{"start":497,"end":498,"text":"內部的時候"},{"start":498,"end":500,"text":"你就掌握資訊"},{"start":500,"end":502,"text":"交叉比對"},{"start":502,"end":504,"text":"採取行政措施"},{"start":504,"end":507,"text":"而不是等到爆發以後"},{"start":507,"end":509,"text":"才來究責"},{"start":509,"end":511,"text":"所以我再講一次"},{"start":511,"end":512,"text":"台糖不只是"},{"start":512,"end":514,"text":"有沒有現行通報的義務的問題"},{"start":514,"end":516,"text":"而是在於現行的制度"},{"start":516,"end":518,"text":"根本沒有確保"},{"start":518,"end":520,"text":"重大風險資訊"},{"start":520,"end":524,"text":"能夠立即及時的進入主管機關"},{"start":524,"end":526,"text":"這個東西很重要"},{"start":526,"end":528,"text":"那食安管理"},{"start":528,"end":530,"text":"更不能只看產品"},{"start":530,"end":533,"text":"這個原料的所有權是誰"},{"start":533,"end":538,"text":"還要看誰要負責掌握風險的資訊"},{"start":538,"end":540,"text":"部長你覺得呢"},{"start":540,"end":543,"text":"所以剛剛委員講到的HACCP"},{"start":543,"end":546,"text":"我們也在這一次修法裡面提出"},{"start":546,"end":549,"text":"要強化那個HACCP的功能"},{"start":549,"end":554,"text":"包含他進場去查這個HACCP的過程"},{"start":554,"end":556,"text":"不是只有看文件"},{"start":556,"end":558,"text":"他還要做確效"},{"start":558,"end":559,"text":"他要去抽菸"},{"start":559,"end":560,"text":"這個我上一次質詢過了"},{"start":560,"end":561,"text":"對"},{"start":561,"end":562,"text":"現在的HACCP"},{"start":562,"end":563,"text":"然後各項的節點"},{"start":563,"end":566,"text":"沒有淪為紙上作業"},{"start":566,"end":568,"text":"造假成為常態"},{"start":568,"end":572,"text":"根本台灣不存在HACCP制度了"},{"start":572,"end":573,"text":"老實說"},{"start":573,"end":575,"text":"就現行的執行"},{"start":575,"end":577,"text":"屠法不足以自行"},{"start":577,"end":580,"text":"就現行有的法律在那裡"},{"start":580,"end":584,"text":"但是執行面所有HACCP業者"},{"start":584,"end":586,"text":"我可以在這裡大膽的假設"},{"start":586,"end":590,"text":"沒有人在執行管制的"},{"start":590,"end":594,"text":"HACCP都造假的"},{"start":596,"end":599,"text":"我現在說屠法不足以自行"},{"start":600,"end":602,"text":"屠法不足以自行"},{"start":602,"end":604,"text":"現在要怎麼辦"},{"start":604,"end":605,"text":"以台糖為例"},{"start":605,"end":608,"text":"我們當然知道他跟中聯"},{"start":608,"end":610,"text":"跟南橋、泰山、福壽"},{"start":610,"end":613,"text":"他們的責任當然是不一樣"},{"start":613,"end":617,"text":"但是他們遇到了、知道了"},{"start":617,"end":621,"text":"這一個風險還是存在在那裡"},{"start":621,"end":624,"text":"所以誰要負責去掌握"},{"start":624,"end":626,"text":"公共食安風險的資訊"},{"start":626,"end":627,"text":"誰要負責"},{"start":627,"end":629,"text":"誰要負責"},{"start":630,"end":633,"text":"今天剪出了本評比14.7"},{"start":633,"end":637,"text":"已經不是單純買賣雙方"},{"start":637,"end":639,"text":"要不要交貨的問題"},{"start":639,"end":642,"text":"而是供食品製造使用的原料"},{"start":642,"end":645,"text":"出現重大的汙染訊號了"},{"start":645,"end":648,"text":"這個訊號沒有進入主管機關"},{"start":648,"end":651,"text":"你怎麼知道他後續有沒有封存"},{"start":651,"end":653,"text":"有沒有精煉"},{"start":653,"end":655,"text":"有沒有混批"},{"start":655,"end":657,"text":"有沒有轉賣掉"},{"start":657,"end":659,"text":"都不知道"},{"start":659,"end":662,"text":"因為都不知道"},{"start":662,"end":664,"text":"所以在這個過程"},{"start":664,"end":668,"text":"變成有一個另一種假設狀況是"},{"start":668,"end":672,"text":"我們第七條第五項通報義務是說"},{"start":672,"end":674,"text":"自己的產品自己管"},{"start":674,"end":677,"text":"可是有一種狀況是"},{"start":677,"end":682,"text":"買方在供應商端驗收錢、取貨錢"},{"start":682,"end":683,"text":"都已經知道了"},{"start":683,"end":685,"text":"但也沒有收貨"},{"start":685,"end":687,"text":"就是台黨這種狀況"},{"start":687,"end":689,"text":"那他已經知道重大異常"},{"start":689,"end":692,"text":"尚未收貨、現行法"},{"start":692,"end":693,"text":"管不到"},{"start":693,"end":695,"text":"這個風險怎麼辦"},{"start":695,"end":697,"text":"我們今天就是要來補這個洞"},{"start":697,"end":698,"text":"保定"},{"start":698,"end":702,"text":"今天就是要來補這個洞"},{"start":702,"end":706,"text":"這一個食安法的最核心"},{"start":706,"end":708,"text":"風險都在業者手上"},{"start":708,"end":711,"text":"主管機關你都不知道"},{"start":712,"end":714,"text":"台黨不是這批有的製造者"},{"start":714,"end":715,"text":"也不是收貨者"},{"start":715,"end":717,"text":"也不是後續的加工者"},{"start":717,"end":724,"text":"可是台黨掌握了中聯311號油槽14.7PBB"},{"start":724,"end":727,"text":"這個重大的污染的資訊"},{"start":727,"end":730,"text":"這個資訊就不能只限縮在是台黨"},{"start":730,"end":734,"text":"跟中聯之間的商業資訊"},{"start":734,"end":737,"text":"這是足以影響整個使用油脂供應鏈的"},{"start":737,"end":740,"text":"公共食安風險的資訊"},{"start":740,"end":742,"text":"所以要請問你部長"},{"start":742,"end":744,"text":"我們要不要討論"},{"start":744,"end":746,"text":"食品業者不管他有沒有買"},{"start":746,"end":748,"text":"所有權是誰的"},{"start":748,"end":750,"text":"只要你掌握了供應鏈中"},{"start":750,"end":752,"text":"重大食安異常的資訊"},{"start":752,"end":754,"text":"即便你沒有買、沒有收貨"},{"start":754,"end":756,"text":"要不要通報"},{"start":756,"end":759,"text":"然後要不要建立起主管機關"},{"start":759,"end":762,"text":"應該掌握什麼樣的責任"},{"start":762,"end":766,"text":"進行干預的這一個系統和制度的建設"},{"start":766,"end":767,"text":"建置"},{"start":767,"end":769,"text":"所以說從兩個部分"},{"start":769,"end":771,"text":"這個通報的擴大"},{"start":771,"end":773,"text":"第一個是"},{"start":773,"end":777,"text":"把這個從現在食安法第七條"},{"start":777,"end":780,"text":"產品的異常才通報"},{"start":780,"end":783,"text":"擴大到原料、換成品"},{"start":783,"end":787,"text":"我們這些高風險的加工鏈"},{"start":787,"end":790,"text":"不管他有沒有收貨"},{"start":790,"end":792,"text":"不管他有沒有買了"},{"start":792,"end":797,"text":"我們這一次討論一共有兩個"},{"start":797,"end":799,"text":"第一個是檢驗機關"},{"start":799,"end":803,"text":"檢驗機關你發現了也要通報"},{"start":803,"end":807,"text":"第二個你的生產供應鏈上"},{"start":807,"end":810,"text":"你發現了不管你有沒有收貨"},{"start":810,"end":812,"text":"也要通報"},{"start":812,"end":815,"text":"第三個是HACCP的認證"},{"start":815,"end":819,"text":"有發現重大異常也要通報"},{"start":819,"end":822,"text":"也就強化了HACCP過程裡面"},{"start":822,"end":823,"text":"是啦,理論上"},{"start":823,"end":824,"text":"但我要再跟你講"},{"start":824,"end":827,"text":"屠法不足以自行"},{"start":827,"end":829,"text":"然後如果你現在說"},{"start":829,"end":830,"text":"對,都要通報的話"},{"start":830,"end":833,"text":"那未來任何食品大廠"},{"start":833,"end":837,"text":"在供應商端驗出重金屬"},{"start":837,"end":839,"text":"黃麴毒素塑化劑本偏皮"},{"start":839,"end":842,"text":"等重大異常事件的鈔標"},{"start":842,"end":845,"text":"只要拒收退貨"},{"start":845,"end":849,"text":"通通都要通報"},{"start":849,"end":851,"text":"都有通報責任"},{"start":851,"end":852,"text":"對,我們會去"},{"start":852,"end":854,"text":"現在法是要這樣子"},{"start":854,"end":856,"text":"明確的再更擴大"},{"start":856,"end":858,"text":"對"},{"start":858,"end":860,"text":"那現行法沒有通報義務"},{"start":860,"end":861,"text":"這一次要補吧"},{"start":861,"end":862,"text":"對,這一次要補"},{"start":862,"end":865,"text":"那我們要講就是說"},{"start":865,"end":867,"text":"重大食安異常"},{"start":867,"end":869,"text":"重大風險"},{"start":869,"end":870,"text":"你要怎麼界定"},{"start":870,"end":872,"text":"你也要想一想喔"},{"start":872,"end":874,"text":"這些我們總的言之"},{"start":874,"end":876,"text":"立法修法的目的是"},{"start":876,"end":878,"text":"這一些異常資訊"},{"start":878,"end":881,"text":"不能夠只是停留在業者手上"},{"start":881,"end":884,"text":"資訊沒有進入主管機關"},{"start":884,"end":886,"text":"政府就不可能及早封存"},{"start":886,"end":891,"text":"追查,比對同來源的流向"},{"start":891,"end":893,"text":"不可能及時通知"},{"start":893,"end":895,"text":"其他下游業者"},{"start":895,"end":898,"text":"就不可能發生預警的作用"},{"start":898,"end":901,"text":"所以有沒有建立風險"},{"start":901,"end":904,"text":"資訊的責任很重要"},{"start":904,"end":906,"text":"而不是只看有沒有買"},{"start":906,"end":908,"text":"然後在這裡呢"},{"start":908,"end":911,"text":"我們要,就部長喔"},{"start":911,"end":913,"text":"你還要再想一下喔"},{"start":913,"end":916,"text":"那通報到你這裡來"},{"start":916,"end":918,"text":"通報到你這裡來"},{"start":918,"end":920,"text":"你們要接下來怎麼進行"},{"start":920,"end":923,"text":"因為他可以把不合格的"},{"start":923,"end":925,"text":"拿回去可能賣給工業製造"},{"start":925,"end":927,"text":"可是你怎麼知道"},{"start":927,"end":929,"text":"他真的是賣給工業製造"},{"start":929,"end":931,"text":"然後他會說我會精煉"},{"start":931,"end":933,"text":"精煉成產品是沒有的"},{"start":933,"end":935,"text":"那你怎麼樣確保"},{"start":935,"end":938,"text":"確認確定安全"},{"start":938,"end":940,"text":"他是真的符合標準的"},{"start":940,"end":942,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":942,"end":944,"text":"土法不足以執行"},{"start":944,"end":946,"text":"接下來是執行面"},{"start":946,"end":948,"text":"法的執行面很重要"},{"start":948,"end":950,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":950,"end":953,"text":"地方政府有足夠的人跟錢嗎"},{"start":953,"end":955,"text":"法的執行面"},{"start":955,"end":958,"text":"接下來就談地方政府的編制"},{"start":958,"end":961,"text":"需不需要給人跟錢"},{"start":961,"end":964,"text":"專責的,專職的"},{"start":964,"end":967,"text":"負責的業務承辦員"},{"start":967,"end":969,"text":"需不需要"},{"start":969,"end":972,"text":"這可能也是必要的配套"},{"start":972,"end":974,"text":"你利用現有的人力"},{"start":974,"end":977,"text":"大家都是兼職兼任"},{"start":977,"end":979,"text":"然後出事了"},{"start":979,"end":982,"text":"才講說你去幾次"},{"start":982,"end":984,"text":"八年沒驗一次"},{"start":984,"end":986,"text":"這都來不及了"},{"start":986,"end":989,"text":"我們想要的是專職專責的"},{"start":989,"end":991,"text":"這一個業務承辦員"},{"start":991,"end":995,"text":"他對這個HACCP制度的管理"},{"start":995,"end":996,"text":"是不是落實"},{"start":996,"end":998,"text":"有沒有可能這方面"},{"start":998,"end":1001,"text":"人力的強化這個是要的"},{"start":1001,"end":1003,"text":"我們過去也一直在"},{"start":1003,"end":1004,"text":"要專職專責"},{"start":1004,"end":1006,"text":"稀查的人力"},{"start":1006,"end":1007,"text":"要專責"},{"start":1007,"end":1008,"text":"不是稀查"},{"start":1008,"end":1010,"text":"要專職專責"},{"start":1010,"end":1012,"text":"負責最高風險的"},{"start":1012,"end":1014,"text":"他就是這幾個項目而已"},{"start":1014,"end":1019,"text":"你知道在制度上要彌補"},{"start":1019,"end":1022,"text":"如果主管機關當時"},{"start":1022,"end":1024,"text":"知道了這個檢驗結果"},{"start":1024,"end":1027,"text":"這個風險是有通報進來的"},{"start":1027,"end":1029,"text":"你在透過製程的調整"},{"start":1029,"end":1032,"text":"而不是業者自己說了算"},{"start":1032,"end":1036,"text":"結果現行的制度是沒有這一個制度"},{"start":1036,"end":1040,"text":"台糖據說是保護了台糖自己的商譽"},{"start":1040,"end":1043,"text":"並沒有保護到公共的食安"},{"start":1043,"end":1046,"text":"他只保護到自己的商譽"},{"start":1046,"end":1050,"text":"可是這據說不能作為風險的終點"},{"start":1050,"end":1052,"text":"對主管機關來講"},{"start":1052,"end":1054,"text":"新的制度未來的制度"},{"start":1054,"end":1056,"text":"我們應當要理解"},{"start":1056,"end":1061,"text":"而且要把據說當作是啟動封存"},{"start":1061,"end":1065,"text":"據說一開始據說就通報"},{"start":1065,"end":1066,"text":"就要啟動封存"},{"start":1066,"end":1070,"text":"據說就要追查加密檢驗"},{"start":1070,"end":1074,"text":"或是限制流向的起點"},{"start":1074,"end":1078,"text":"我們是希望制度是應該要這樣才對"},{"start":1078,"end":1080,"text":"如果沒有這樣的話"},{"start":1080,"end":1082,"text":"據說異常資訊"},{"start":1082,"end":1085,"text":"他就會仍然會不斷地"},{"start":1085,"end":1087,"text":"歷史都會重演"},{"start":1087,"end":1091,"text":"那據說要通報"},{"start":1091,"end":1093,"text":"然後要啟動政府的責任"},{"start":1093,"end":1095,"text":"很重要為什麼"},{"start":1095,"end":1098,"text":"這個東西為什麼要專職專責的業務承辦員"},{"start":1098,"end":1100,"text":"因為未來也有可能"},{"start":1100,"end":1102,"text":"如果未來一家如品廠"},{"start":1102,"end":1107,"text":"在供應商端驗出原料奶重大污染"},{"start":1107,"end":1109,"text":"他據說"},{"start":1109,"end":1111,"text":"他只是據說"},{"start":1111,"end":1113,"text":"他產品安全了"},{"start":1113,"end":1116,"text":"可是被據說那一批原料會流到哪裡去不知道"},{"start":1116,"end":1119,"text":"如果一家應用的食品業者"},{"start":1119,"end":1124,"text":"在供應商端驗出大宗的原料重金屬超標"},{"start":1124,"end":1126,"text":"只是據說"},{"start":1126,"end":1128,"text":"據獲退貨"},{"start":1128,"end":1131,"text":"這樣子只是他沒有"},{"start":1131,"end":1133,"text":"但那一個原料還會再賣給別人"},{"start":1133,"end":1135,"text":"如果使用油紙"},{"start":1135,"end":1137,"text":"這一次類似這樣子只是據說"},{"start":1137,"end":1139,"text":"出管機關不知道"},{"start":1139,"end":1142,"text":"這個原料還停留在中聯"},{"start":1142,"end":1144,"text":"等待下一個買方"},{"start":1144,"end":1147,"text":"下一個買方沒有像台南這麼高標準"},{"start":1147,"end":1150,"text":"做成食品大家吃下肚"},{"start":1150,"end":1152,"text":"現行就是這個樣子"},{"start":1152,"end":1155,"text":"所以這絕對不是一個假設的題目"},{"start":1155,"end":1157,"text":"中聯就是這樣子"},{"start":1157,"end":1159,"text":"所以未來的修法"},{"start":1159,"end":1160,"text":"我們就是講說"},{"start":1160,"end":1163,"text":"據收退貨通報"},{"start":1163,"end":1166,"text":"就是主管機關要去介入"},{"start":1166,"end":1170,"text":"確認封存流向後續處理"},{"start":1170,"end":1172,"text":"在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":1172,"end":1174,"text":"我們政府的責任就來了"},{"start":1174,"end":1176,"text":"所以我們這一次我們要再講一遍"},{"start":1176,"end":1181,"text":"整個最上游的少數壟斷的"},{"start":1181,"end":1184,"text":"廠商的原料供應的"},{"start":1184,"end":1186,"text":"這一些食品業者"},{"start":1186,"end":1189,"text":"HACCP制度也沒有在做"},{"start":1189,"end":1191,"text":"也沒有在遵守"},{"start":1191,"end":1194,"text":"食安法的管理也有制度面的漏洞"},{"start":1195,"end":1198,"text":"但是我們在這個裡面"},{"start":1198,"end":1202,"text":"我們一定要開始"},{"start":1202,"end":1205,"text":"要把自主管理制度收回"},{"start":1205,"end":1207,"text":"我再強調一次"},{"start":1207,"end":1210,"text":"以前都是叫業者自主管理"},{"start":1210,"end":1212,"text":"包括HACCP制度"},{"start":1212,"end":1214,"text":"也是叫業者自主管理"},{"start":1214,"end":1216,"text":"我們從現在開始"},{"start":1216,"end":1220,"text":"要把業者自主管理收回來"},{"start":1220,"end":1221,"text":"收回來"},{"start":1221,"end":1225,"text":"改成高度的政府監管"},{"start":1225,"end":1227,"text":"部長你同意嗎"},{"start":1227,"end":1230,"text":"高度的政府監管"},{"start":1230,"end":1232,"text":"更高程度的管理"},{"start":1232,"end":1234,"text":"這個是我們絕對會支持"},{"start":1234,"end":1236,"text":"所以在這一次的修法裡面"},{"start":1236,"end":1238,"text":"也要求了很多強制性的做法"},{"start":1238,"end":1240,"text":"更高程度的管理"},{"start":1240,"end":1242,"text":"到底是要政府管理"},{"start":1242,"end":1244,"text":"還是業者自己管理"},{"start":1244,"end":1247,"text":"包含了外部的專業人員的管理介入"},{"start":1247,"end":1248,"text":"我現在告訴你"},{"start":1248,"end":1251,"text":"沒有所謂的有良心的業者"},{"start":1251,"end":1254,"text":"我現在告訴你沒有這一回事"},{"start":1254,"end":1256,"text":"就這個制度面"},{"start":1256,"end":1258,"text":"你去好好地想一下"},{"start":1258,"end":1260,"text":"我認為沒有所謂的"},{"start":1260,"end":1262,"text":"有道德有良知的業者"},{"start":1262,"end":1264,"text":"只有法律怎麼規定"},{"start":1264,"end":1266,"text":"法律是最低的標準"},{"start":1266,"end":1268,"text":"他都可以不遵守了"},{"start":1268,"end":1270,"text":"如果你還法律是授權給他們"},{"start":1270,"end":1271,"text":"業者自主管理"},{"start":1271,"end":1273,"text":"那一定是破功"},{"start":1273,"end":1276,"text":"而且食安系統性的風暴"},{"start":1276,"end":1277,"text":"會不斷地上演"},{"start":1277,"end":1279,"text":"這是我提醒你的"},{"start":1279,"end":1282,"text":"好 那就這一次的中聯的"},{"start":1282,"end":1283,"text":"獨有的事件"},{"start":1283,"end":1285,"text":"311號油潮"},{"start":1285,"end":1286,"text":"我再提醒你一個"},{"start":1286,"end":1290,"text":"重大的異常不能只追單一交易"},{"start":1290,"end":1295,"text":"應該要啟動同潮或是同傳奇"},{"start":1295,"end":1298,"text":"同來源的橫向警示"},{"start":1298,"end":1301,"text":"未來只要高風險食品原料"},{"start":1301,"end":1304,"text":"在供應商端驗出重大的鈔標"},{"start":1304,"end":1306,"text":"你就要開始要求業者"},{"start":1306,"end":1309,"text":"立即同潮、同傳奇、同來源"},{"start":1309,"end":1312,"text":"同製程、同批次的完整資料"},{"start":1312,"end":1314,"text":"而並通知可能受影響的"},{"start":1314,"end":1318,"text":"買方檢驗或暫停使用"},{"start":1318,"end":1320,"text":"如果沒有這道橫向的指示"},{"start":1320,"end":1323,"text":"政府會永遠都在等下一個"},{"start":1323,"end":1325,"text":"下游驗出鈔標"},{"start":1325,"end":1328,"text":"再回溯去找上游"},{"start":1328,"end":1330,"text":"不能這麼被動"},{"start":1330,"end":1331,"text":"他那個油潮"},{"start":1331,"end":1332,"text":"他的那個油潮"},{"start":1332,"end":1335,"text":"跟那個油潮同一批貨來的"},{"start":1335,"end":1337,"text":"同一個傳奇的"},{"start":1337,"end":1340,"text":"同一批煉油的"},{"start":1340,"end":1344,"text":"其他的東西一起查、一起驗"},{"start":1344,"end":1347,"text":"你只驗那一潮也不行"},{"start":1347,"end":1349,"text":"只驗那一批也不行"},{"start":1349,"end":1352,"text":"當然你們這次擴大驗了三個月"},{"start":1352,"end":1353,"text":"幾批"},{"start":1353,"end":1355,"text":"一共是30批"},{"start":1355,"end":1356,"text":"30批"},{"start":1356,"end":1357,"text":"不過那一個是"},{"start":1357,"end":1358,"text":"他沒有成批的"},{"start":1358,"end":1360,"text":"他是另外那個是在潮"},{"start":1360,"end":1361,"text":"另外是30批"},{"start":1361,"end":1362,"text":"我現在跟你說的"},{"start":1362,"end":1364,"text":"不是同那幾批而已"},{"start":1364,"end":1366,"text":"其實同傳奇的"},{"start":1366,"end":1368,"text":"同一批來源的"},{"start":1368,"end":1371,"text":"其實都是有很大的風險"},{"start":1371,"end":1375,"text":"然後食品雲不能只追產品流向"},{"start":1375,"end":1379,"text":"如果按照現在食品雲的管理的方法"},{"start":1379,"end":1383,"text":"你們現在說修法要強化數位治理"},{"start":1383,"end":1386,"text":"那你數位治理要治理什麼"},{"start":1386,"end":1387,"text":"你們講的"},{"start":1387,"end":1389,"text":"要強化數位治理要治理什麼"},{"start":1389,"end":1391,"text":"當然就是強化他這個"},{"start":1391,"end":1392,"text":"我們剛剛前面的通報"},{"start":1392,"end":1394,"text":"包含這個檢驗的通報"},{"start":1394,"end":1395,"text":"我們會把它建立起來"},{"start":1395,"end":1397,"text":"過去的檢驗是沒有直接通報"},{"start":1397,"end":1398,"text":"對"},{"start":1398,"end":1403,"text":"你們的過去只記錄進貨、出貨、流向"},{"start":1403,"end":1405,"text":"只看得到已經進入供應鏈的資料"},{"start":1405,"end":1408,"text":"然後沒有看到被退貨的、不合格的"},{"start":1408,"end":1412,"text":"風潮採樣的、拒收檢驗異常的"},{"start":1412,"end":1414,"text":"通通都沒有"},{"start":1414,"end":1417,"text":"那看不到他最早的風險訊號"},{"start":1417,"end":1418,"text":"在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":1418,"end":1420,"text":"可是你看到這個風險訊號"},{"start":1420,"end":1421,"text":"你知道喔"},{"start":1421,"end":1425,"text":"他都沒有出現在台糖的生產資料裡面"},{"start":1425,"end":1429,"text":"也不會出現在台糖的產品流向"},{"start":1429,"end":1432,"text":"那也沒有進入台糖的進貨資料"},{"start":1432,"end":1434,"text":"通通都沒有啊"},{"start":1434,"end":1435,"text":"都沒有喔"},{"start":1435,"end":1437,"text":"可是這個油沒有消失啊"},{"start":1437,"end":1438,"text":"這一批油沒有消失吧"},{"start":1438,"end":1441,"text":"他仍然在311油槽裡面"},{"start":1441,"end":1443,"text":"就是說你整個食品雲的制度"},{"start":1443,"end":1445,"text":"只看得到產品的流向"},{"start":1445,"end":1448,"text":"但是看不到重大異常的檢驗結果"},{"start":1448,"end":1453,"text":"如果說業者在供應商端採樣驗收前檢驗"},{"start":1453,"end":1456,"text":"委託代工檢驗、自主檢驗"},{"start":1456,"end":1458,"text":"第三方實驗室檢驗"},{"start":1458,"end":1460,"text":"發現重大的超標不合格"},{"start":1460,"end":1464,"text":"拒收、退貨、風潮暫停存放的訊息"},{"start":1464,"end":1467,"text":"這個就是很重要的內幕的、評估的資料"},{"start":1467,"end":1471,"text":"但是對我們主管機關而言"},{"start":1471,"end":1474,"text":"這個就是一個風險的警訊"},{"start":1474,"end":1476,"text":"我們都應該要掌握"},{"start":1476,"end":1479,"text":"我不是說所有不合格都要登錄"},{"start":1479,"end":1485,"text":"但是應該強制登錄的是高風險食品業別"},{"start":1485,"end":1489,"text":"重大污染物超過法定標準或達一定倍數"},{"start":1489,"end":1492,"text":"可能影響多家下游的異常結果"},{"start":1492,"end":1496,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們要記錄"},{"start":1496,"end":1501,"text":"你們的方向跟我講的方向是一致的嗎"},{"start":1501,"end":1506,"text":"對,就是我們過去在登錄的部分是進跟出"},{"start":1506,"end":1510,"text":"進跟出,而且只登錄合格"},{"start":1510,"end":1513,"text":"只登錄合格的進跟出"},{"start":1513,"end":1515,"text":"對,它就是進入它的加工鏈的"},{"start":1515,"end":1517,"text":"它是合格的"},{"start":1517,"end":1519,"text":"但我希望你們開始要建置"},{"start":1519,"end":1523,"text":"登錄不合格的叫它要登錄出來"},{"start":1523,"end":1525,"text":"我們不能夠只要求業者"},{"start":1525,"end":1528,"text":"把合格的資料給政府看"},{"start":1528,"end":1531,"text":"只登錄合格的資料"},{"start":1531,"end":1535,"text":"真正的風險往往是在於不合格的資料"},{"start":1535,"end":1539,"text":"因為合格資料告訴政府什麼可以出貨"},{"start":1539,"end":1542,"text":"可是不合格的資料告訴你"},{"start":1542,"end":1545,"text":"哪裡可能正要出事了"},{"start":1545,"end":1547,"text":"所以你的食品雲登錄"},{"start":1547,"end":1551,"text":"只要求業者登錄進貨出貨產品流向"},{"start":1551,"end":1556,"text":"沒有納入不合格的重大的異常的檢驗結果"},{"start":1556,"end":1558,"text":"政府永遠慢半拍"},{"start":1558,"end":1561,"text":"人民永遠都要把有毒的吃進去以後"},{"start":1561,"end":1565,"text":"才在那裡氣急敗壞,就責於政府"},{"start":1565,"end":1570,"text":"然後永遠要等下游驗出超標產品"},{"start":1570,"end":1576,"text":"已經進入所有的各個機關、團散、家庭"},{"start":1576,"end":1579,"text":"政府才要回頭追流向查原因"},{"start":1579,"end":1581,"text":"這不是數位治理"},{"start":1581,"end":1585,"text":"而是已經發生的交易記錄電子化而已"},{"start":1585,"end":1589,"text":"所以真正有預警價值的是"},{"start":1589,"end":1593,"text":"要登錄重大異常檢驗資訊"},{"start":1593,"end":1597,"text":"不能讓這個異常檢驗資訊留在業者手上而已"},{"start":1597,"end":1599,"text":"叫他登錄"},{"start":1599,"end":1601,"text":"但如果他不登錄"},{"start":1601,"end":1604,"text":"我們第三方檢驗出來"},{"start":1604,"end":1607,"text":"或是你的買主給你退貨了"},{"start":1607,"end":1609,"text":"也會通報"},{"start":1609,"end":1611,"text":"一樣要通報"},{"start":1611,"end":1614,"text":"你會被通報不如你自己主動登錄"},{"start":1614,"end":1616,"text":"當你登錄了異常的時候"},{"start":1616,"end":1619,"text":"你主管機關要通知地方政府"},{"start":1619,"end":1622,"text":"你對那一批次那些貨"},{"start":1622,"end":1624,"text":"你要高度的監管"},{"start":1624,"end":1627,"text":"因為它超標很多"},{"start":1627,"end":1632,"text":"最後它怎麼處理安不安全、流向哪裡"},{"start":1632,"end":1635,"text":"政府要給人民交代"},{"start":1635,"end":1638,"text":"我最後再講最後一句就是說"},{"start":1638,"end":1640,"text":"人民的期待是"},{"start":1640,"end":1642,"text":"再加上的"},{"start":1642,"end":1645,"text":"政府都應該是把關過"},{"start":1645,"end":1647,"text":"都是安全的"},{"start":1647,"end":1650,"text":"而現在並不是"},{"start":1650,"end":1654,"text":"我們希望未來都應該要是這樣子"},{"start":1654,"end":1656,"text":"這樣子部長"},{"start":1656,"end":1658,"text":"叫他們不合格異常要登錄"},{"start":1658,"end":1662,"text":"如果你HACCP制度要通報了"},{"start":1662,"end":1667,"text":"如果你的第三方檢驗的實驗室要通報了"},{"start":1667,"end":1670,"text":"如果像台糖買到也要通報了"},{"start":1670,"end":1674,"text":"那業者登錄對他們來講"},{"start":1674,"end":1677,"text":"是同樣一件事"},{"start":1677,"end":1681,"text":"所以對業者來講沒有壓力了"},{"start":1681,"end":1685,"text":"這是越透明、越公開"},{"start":1685,"end":1687,"text":"對消費者有保障"},{"start":1687,"end":1692,"text":"但對業者自己來講也是有保障的"},{"start":1692,"end":1695,"text":"不要被人家通報了再來被處分"},{"start":1695,"end":1697,"text":"對不對"},{"start":1697,"end":1700,"text":"部長你有同意嗎"},{"start":1700,"end":1702,"text":"因為這次我們是要求連這個"},{"start":1702,"end":1705,"text":"自設實驗室的檢驗也要通報"},{"start":1705,"end":1706,"text":"就等於是要登錄"},{"start":1706,"end":1707,"text":"概念是一樣"},{"start":1707,"end":1708,"text":"是沒有錯"},{"start":1708,"end":1712,"text":"所以我們希望所有制度都不是參考用的"},{"start":1712,"end":1715,"text":"你們目前為止HACCP制度"},{"start":1715,"end":1716,"text":"不是只有使用油紙"},{"start":1716,"end":1718,"text":"HACCP的"},{"start":1718,"end":1721,"text":"符合這個工廠製造HACCP的廠商有幾間"},{"start":1721,"end":1723,"text":"全國"},{"start":1724,"end":1727,"text":"其實HACCP食品廠都是大廠"},{"start":1727,"end":1729,"text":"超級大廠"},{"start":1729,"end":1731,"text":"食藥署署長"},{"start":1731,"end":1736,"text":"所有HACCP制度的所有食品加工廠"},{"start":1736,"end":1741,"text":"全部都應該好好的盤整一次"},{"start":1741,"end":1743,"text":"造假的百分之"},{"start":1743,"end":1745,"text":"我不好意思說百分之百"},{"start":1745,"end":1747,"text":"很多"},{"start":1747,"end":1749,"text":"很多"},{"start":1749,"end":1750,"text":"虛擬委員"},{"start":1750,"end":1752,"text":"書面作業"},{"start":1752,"end":1755,"text":"不是真正的HACCP"},{"start":1755,"end":1758,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":1758,"end":1759,"text":"好謝謝委員"},{"start":1759,"end":1763,"text":"好抱歉我再問最後一句"},{"start":1763,"end":1766,"text":"一個因為台灣苦茶油的事情"},{"start":1766,"end":1769,"text":"我現在問署長苦茶油"},{"start":1769,"end":1773,"text":"沒有品名標示標準對不對"},{"start":1773,"end":1775,"text":"沒有制定品名標示標準"},{"start":1775,"end":1776,"text":"意思是說"},{"start":1776,"end":1780,"text":"苦茶油根本台灣沒有界定什麼叫做苦茶油"},{"start":1780,"end":1782,"text":"沒有嘛"},{"start":1782,"end":1785,"text":"這個部分我們知道這個要做一些修正"},{"start":1785,"end":1787,"text":"我知道你們沒有啦"},{"start":1787,"end":1788,"text":"油品的部分"},{"start":1788,"end":1790,"text":"這些是本品比這是2PVP"},{"start":1790,"end":1791,"text":"沒有不是這樣子啦"},{"start":1791,"end":1793,"text":"我現在重點第一個苦茶油"},{"start":1793,"end":1799,"text":"台灣沒有制定什麼叫做苦茶油的標準"},{"start":1799,"end":1801,"text":"沒有品名標示標準"},{"start":1801,"end":1805,"text":"所以混油也可以叫做苦茶油"},{"start":1805,"end":1806,"text":"第二個"},{"start":1806,"end":1810,"text":"因為沒有規定什麼才能夠叫做苦茶油"},{"start":1810,"end":1811,"text":"所以會有混油"},{"start":1811,"end":1817,"text":"但是台灣目前沒有混油的檢驗方法對不對"},{"start":1817,"end":1820,"text":"苦茶油的混油檢驗方法"},{"start":1820,"end":1822,"text":"包委員就這個部分"},{"start":1822,"end":1824,"text":"的確我們在積極的研議"},{"start":1824,"end":1828,"text":"因為裡面有混甲混沙拉油大豆油等等"},{"start":1828,"end":1830,"text":"其實它的成分的部分"},{"start":1830,"end":1831,"text":"以目前的檢驗"},{"start":1831,"end":1833,"text":"我們有信心應該是可以開發出來的"},{"start":1833,"end":1836,"text":"好你們現在目前沒有檢驗方法"},{"start":1836,"end":1838,"text":"所以我講這個是什麼意思呢"},{"start":1838,"end":1840,"text":"因為新聞報導"},{"start":1840,"end":1843,"text":"中國的種子來了檢驗了"},{"start":1843,"end":1845,"text":"沒有本品比超標"},{"start":1845,"end":1847,"text":"他是這樣很多報導是這樣講的"},{"start":1847,"end":1850,"text":"他不是驗那個苦茶籽"},{"start":1850,"end":1853,"text":"他是說做出來的苦茶油沒有超標"},{"start":1853,"end":1856,"text":"對但是有機商店的永豐嶼的都超標啊"},{"start":1856,"end":1859,"text":"產品一樣是最末端的產品都超標啊"},{"start":1859,"end":1861,"text":"我現在不是要講這個啦"},{"start":1861,"end":1862,"text":"我是要跟你講"},{"start":1862,"end":1866,"text":"其實啊我自己高度的懷疑是混油啦"},{"start":1866,"end":1868,"text":"混油啦"},{"start":1868,"end":1870,"text":"真正超標的來源沒有可能"},{"start":1870,"end":1872,"text":"其實是加很多的大豆沙拉油"},{"start":1872,"end":1877,"text":"因為加了大豆沙拉油的苦茶油沒有違法"},{"start":1877,"end":1880,"text":"因為法律沒有訂定什麼叫做苦茶油"},{"start":1880,"end":1883,"text":"那現在目前也沒有檢驗"},{"start":1883,"end":1886,"text":"有沒有混油的檢驗方法沒有"},{"start":1886,"end":1889,"text":"好我希望你們要去改善"},{"start":1889,"end":1892,"text":"你們要嚴格管理啦"},{"start":1892,"end":1896,"text":"第三個我們很多關心台灣農業的"},{"start":1896,"end":1900,"text":"也有很多委員在關心的"},{"start":1900,"end":1904,"text":"我們希望原料來源國要標示"},{"start":1904,"end":1906,"text":"這個你們會不會支持"},{"start":1906,"end":1910,"text":"根本現在的油品的標示有要求"},{"start":1910,"end":1912,"text":"如果你是有混油的"},{"start":1912,"end":1913,"text":"你就不能稱為"},{"start":1913,"end":1914,"text":"我不再講混油了"},{"start":1914,"end":1917,"text":"你要用調和油的方式標示"},{"start":1917,"end":1920,"text":"你的苦茶油沒有訂出品名標示標準"},{"start":1920,"end":1924,"text":"你哪裡有混油的調和油這個名稱"},{"start":1924,"end":1926,"text":"這個是通則"},{"start":1926,"end":1928,"text":"好來但我不是要講這個"},{"start":1928,"end":1931,"text":"我是講這個是一樣是沒有混油的話"},{"start":1931,"end":1935,"text":"沒有混油但是你的種子來自於中國"},{"start":1935,"end":1939,"text":"你要標示原料種子來自於中國"},{"start":1939,"end":1941,"text":"我是要要求這個"},{"start":1941,"end":1943,"text":"有沒有意見"},{"start":1943,"end":1945,"text":"對於原料原產地的部分"},{"start":1945,"end":1946,"text":"的確這個部分我們"},{"start":1946,"end":1950,"text":"原料原產地特別是這些農產品的這一些"},{"start":1950,"end":1955,"text":"原料原產地要標示來源國"},{"start":1955,"end":1957,"text":"這個是社會高度關注"},{"start":1957,"end":1960,"text":"也是這一次苦茶油事件裡面"},{"start":1960,"end":1962,"text":"大家相當關注的"},{"start":1962,"end":1969,"text":"但是我們這個要修改要立法要修法之外"},{"start":1969,"end":1972,"text":"我在講苦茶油的相關的"},{"start":1972,"end":1974,"text":"包括其他的油品都一樣"},{"start":1974,"end":1976,"text":"品名標示標準"},{"start":1976,"end":1979,"text":"然後規定出來以後就要有檢驗的方法"},{"start":1979,"end":1981,"text":"沒有檢驗方法"},{"start":1981,"end":1983,"text":"你沒有辦法證明他混油"},{"start":1983,"end":1985,"text":"你說不可以混油"},{"start":1985,"end":1987,"text":"現行的通則就規定不能混"},{"start":1987,"end":1989,"text":"混的話要標示調和油"},{"start":1989,"end":1995,"text":"但是你沒有苦茶油混油的檢驗方法"},{"start":1995,"end":1999,"text":"你怎麼去確認他的混油是真的混油"},{"start":1999,"end":2004,"text":"他在那裡硬拗你怎麼確認"},{"start":2004,"end":2006,"text":"你連檢驗方法都沒有公告"},{"start":2006,"end":2008,"text":"現在也沒辦法檢驗"},{"start":2008,"end":2010,"text":"不是嗎"},{"start":2010,"end":2012,"text":"跟委員說明當然這個檢驗方法"},{"start":2012,"end":2016,"text":"現在食藥署在積極的開發去驗他"},{"start":2016,"end":2020,"text":"關於他的脂肪酸的比例不同的脂肪酸"},{"start":2020,"end":2022,"text":"不過我們現在在查的時候"},{"start":2022,"end":2026,"text":"是根據他的原料的採購證明"},{"start":2026,"end":2030,"text":"你們這樣證明他是中國原料"},{"start":2030,"end":2032,"text":"還是在地"},{"start":2032,"end":2034,"text":"但是本篇比的"},{"start":2034,"end":2037,"text":"人家中國原料製成的苦茶油"},{"start":2037,"end":2041,"text":"就是有好幾批驗出來沒有超標"},{"start":2041,"end":2043,"text":"我不是替中國總指講話"},{"start":2043,"end":2046,"text":"我是要告訴你真正有可能風險的來源"},{"start":2046,"end":2048,"text":"是來自於混油"},{"start":2048,"end":2050,"text":"風險的來源"},{"start":2050,"end":2054,"text":"在中聯你們公布那有問題的批次流向的時候"},{"start":2054,"end":2058,"text":"就很多自由工廠買了很多大豆沙拉油"},{"start":2058,"end":2060,"text":"這個是事實"},{"start":2060,"end":2062,"text":"包括苦茶油工廠"},{"start":2062,"end":2065,"text":"也有人買大豆沙拉油"},{"start":2065,"end":2069,"text":"所以混油你們一直都沒有朝混油的方向"},{"start":2069,"end":2071,"text":"那沒有朝混油的方向"},{"start":2071,"end":2072,"text":"我也可以理解"},{"start":2072,"end":2074,"text":"因為你們也沒有檢驗的方法"},{"start":2074,"end":2077,"text":"所以對你們來講是一個非常困難的"},{"start":2077,"end":2080,"text":"那過去沒有做出規範"},{"start":2081,"end":2084,"text":"未來我們希望你們儘速馬上"},{"start":2084,"end":2088,"text":"把該補起來的豆馬上補起來"},{"start":2088,"end":2092,"text":"把食品安全還給我們人民"},{"start":2092,"end":2094,"text":"是這樣子"},{"start":2094,"end":2097,"text":"好這個我們趕快來開發這個檢驗"},{"start":2101,"end":2104,"text":"好謝謝我們林子芬委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:22:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:22:28.941176+08:00","text":"主席，各位大家午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:22:29.647059+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:22:35.294118+08:00","text":"是不是請石部長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T13:22:36.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:22:37.600000+08:00","text":"請石部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:22:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:22:41+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:22:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:22:42.818182+08:00","text":"部長午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:22:43.090909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:22:57.722222+08:00","text":"我現在在這裡跟你溝通最重要的一個觀念，我們的食安法並不只是用來事後究責，整個食安法最重要的精神在於事前預防。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:22:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:24:00.722222+08:00","text":"這幾年發生這麼多重大食安事件以後，我們一修再修，從源頭管理、業者自主管理、追溯追蹤、HACCP，到這一次我們還要再修，也就是強化異常通報、品質管理及數位治理，這整個核心概念非常清楚，就是食安絕對不能夠等到產品出事以後才補救，而是要讓風險在進入市場以前要被辨識、被通報、被處理，針對中聯毒油案件，中聯他們全部都是按HACCP制度運作的，根據你們在2021年的食用油脂工廠實施衛生管理及食品安全管制系統概況的調查報告，我們就可以看得出來調查報告裡面說他們的數據經常造假，為什麼要經常造假？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:24:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:24:18.777778+08:00","text":"因為他們進行了危害分析以後要設管制點，設完管制點以後，發現檢查起來都還是異常的話，他們就要矯正，矯正措施做好以後，還要回去把他們的危害重新分析，然後再重新設管制點。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:24:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:24:50.833333+08:00","text":"你們的調查報告說這次毒油事件他們都沒有設好管制點、沒有落實，他們當然不能設好管制點，因為他們設了管制點還是不通過，所以他們的問題就是他們必須要造假，否則就不能符合HACCP，所以在這個過程裡面，整個危害預警制度HACCP已經瓦解，淪為紙上作業，這是我講過的。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:24:51.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:25:05.882353+08:00","text":"它並非只是如此而已，大家講了一整個早上都在講台糖，所持的爭點都是到底有通報義務或是沒有通報義務？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:25:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:25:22.500000+08:00","text":"我現在告訴你，我不想只是談通報義務這個概念，不能夠只問責台糖有沒有通報義務，也不是只問責中聯要怎麼裁罰、怎麼處罰得更重，甚至說要讓它倒。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:25:23.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:25:39.666667+08:00","text":"其實不是只有這樣子，因為對人民來講，我們希望不管食安法還是HACCP的制度，都能夠發揮預警的作用，不能夠只是事後究責，還要事前預防。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:25:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:26:07.666667+08:00","text":"在這個地方，我們要釐清台糖有沒有責任，對於中聯這個最過分的始作俑者我們要問責清楚，可是更重要的是，現行的食安法、現行的HACCP制度、現行所有的安全管理制度，有沒有辦法讓重大的食安警訊在供應鏈的內部就讓你們掌握？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:26:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:26:55.769231+08:00","text":"不是只有業者掌握，現在的問題就是所有重大的風險，在還沒成為產品以前就發現到的，不能只是業者知道，而是政府也要管制、要知道，否則我們修了這麼多次的食安法，每一次發生單一事件、系統性的風暴，每次都還是在等下游檢出超標，產品大家都吃下肚，等媒體大幅報導，然後吹哨者出現才開始補救，其實是不能夠這樣的，所以我今天就要開始來講針對中聯毒油案件，為什麼重大的食安警訊卻斷訊？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:26:56.153846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:27:01.500000+08:00","text":"在供應鏈的業者內部就斷訊了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:27:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:27:03.777778+08:00","text":"我現在講的是這件事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:27:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:27:32.785714+08:00","text":"當然我們的食安法一定要管理原料，這是開宗明義就講的，食安法不是只有管產品，還管原料，但是在現行的第七條裡面的確也規定，當你進入生產程序、成為產品，發現異常才課責業者要通報，可是這樣子是不行的，要管原料，那什麼時候要管、管到哪裡？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:27:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:27:58.777778+08:00","text":"在課責通報的時候，沒有把原料這一環放進去，毒油事件、台糖事件就是14.7 ppb原料的這個重大風險斷訊在供應鏈的內部，政府不知道，更不要講人民通通都不知道，因此大家都吃下肚了。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:27:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:28:43.666667+08:00","text":"所以我們在這裡要講高風險原料的管理、製程的管控、監測的管制，你們說獨立調查的結果發現了很多原因，但是我們要再講一遍，前面早就出現了風險訊號，譬如說原料的來源、船期的差異、油槽的檢驗、製程的參數、管制的界限、下游的檢驗、拒收退貨的紀錄，這些訊號通通沒有被整合，沒有進入主管機關的預警系統，也沒有變成跨縣市、跨業者、跨供應鏈的風險警示。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:28:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:28:53.857143+08:00","text":"所以在這種狀況裡面，我們通通都吃下肚以後才發現問題，然後發現問題的時候都已經來不及了，因為都吃進去了。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:28:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:29:03.750000+08:00","text":"一次又一次都是吃完了才在說你可以退貨、你可以退款，吃進去了，我的健康怎麼退款？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:29:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:29:04.875000+08:00","text":"我的健康怎麼退貨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:29:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:29:30.692308+08:00","text":"所以我在這裡講清楚，這個問題不是限縮在台糖一間公司要怎麼做而已，也不是台糖對這個案子要不要通報、有沒有通報義務，我們要講的是問題油品還沒有實際進入台糖工廠，重大的訊號就已經出現了，為什麼主管機關沒有同步掌握？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:29:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:30:05.666667+08:00","text":"今天是苯駢芘，明天有可能是重金屬、農藥殘留、塑化劑、黃麴毒素或是其他污染物，只要制度面仍然只看到產品有沒有進貨、所有權有沒有移轉、業者有沒有製成自己的產品現在只看到這個制度面，主管機關就會看不到供應鏈前端已經出現的風險訊號。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:30:06.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:30:26.727273+08:00","text":"我再講一遍，食安法管制的精神、人民想要的制度，就是掌握在成為產品以前，供應鏈的前端就已經出現的風險訊號，我們要怎麼設計成政府一定要馬上介入和管制？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:30:27.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:30:52.500000+08:00","text":"食安制度不能靠吹哨者當最後一道防線，那都已經來不及，真正的預警制度應該是發現了重大的異常，還停留在供應鏈內部的時候，就要掌握資訊，交叉比對，採取行政措施，而不是等到爆發以後才來究責。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:30:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:31:21.642857+08:00","text":"所以我再講一次，台糖不只是現行有沒有通報義務的問題，而是在於現行的制度根本沒有確保重大風險資訊能夠立即、即時地進入主管機關，這個東西很重要，食安管理更不能只看產品原料的所有權是誰，還要看誰要負責掌握風險的資訊。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:31:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:31:23.666667+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:31:24.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:31:42.600000+08:00","text":"對，剛剛委員講到HACCP，我們也在這次修法裡面提出要強化HACCP的功能，包含進廠去查HACCP的過程不是只有看文件，還要做確效、要去抽驗。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:31:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:31:43.900000+08:00","text":"這個我上一次質詢過了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:31:43.900000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:31:45+08:00","text":"對，然後各項的截點……","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:31:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:32:00.714286+08:00","text":"現在HACCP淪為紙上作業，造假成為常態，臺灣根本不存在HACCP制度了，老實說，徒法不足以自行嘛！","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:32:01.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:32:17.555556+08:00","text":"現行有法律在那裡，但是我可以在這裡大膽地假設，執行面所有HACCP業者沒有人在執行管制，HACCP都做假的啦！","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:32:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:32:27.666667+08:00","text":"我要說，徒法不足以自行，現在要怎麼辦？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:32:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:32:49.777778+08:00","text":"以台糖為例，我們當然知道它跟中聯、南僑、泰山、福壽他們的責任不一樣，但是他們遇到了、知道了這個風險，問題還是存在在那裡，所以誰要負責去掌握公共食安風險的資訊？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:32:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:32:50.750000+08:00","text":"誰要負責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:32:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:32:52.500000+08:00","text":"誰要負責起來？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:32:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:33:20.666667+08:00","text":"今天檢出了苯駢芘14.7，已經不是單純買賣雙方要不要交貨的問題，而是供食品製造使用的原料出現重大的污染訊號了，這個訊號沒有進入主管機關，你怎麼知道它後續有沒有封存、有沒有精煉、有沒有混批、有沒有轉賣掉？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:33:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:33:22.500000+08:00","text":"都不知道啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:33:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:33:58.714286+08:00","text":"因為都不知道，所以這個過程會變成另一種假設的狀況，第七條第五項通報義務是說自己的產品自己管，可是有一種狀況是買方在供應商端驗收前、取貨前都已經知道了，但也沒有收貨，就是台糖這種狀況，它已經知道重大異常，尚未收貨，但現行法管不到，這個風險怎麼辦？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:33:59+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:34:00.833333+08:00","text":"我們今天就是要來補這個洞。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:34:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:34:14.666667+08:00","text":"部長，今天就是要來補這個洞，這個食安法最核心的風險都在業者手上，你主管機關都不知道欸！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:34:16.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:34:47.714286+08:00","text":"台糖不是這批油的製造者，也不是收貨者，也不是後續的加工者，可是台糖掌握了中聯311號油槽14.7ppb這個重大的污染資訊，這個資訊就不能只限縮在台糖跟中聯之間的商業資訊，這是足以影響整個食用油脂供應鏈的公共食安風險資訊，所以要請問部長，我們要不要討論？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:34:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:34:59.600000+08:00","text":"食品業者不管有沒有買、所有權是誰的，只要掌握了供應鏈中重大食安異常的資訊，即便沒有買、沒有收貨，要不要通報？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:35:00.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:35:09+08:00","text":"要不要建立起主管機關掌握什麼樣的資訊該進行干預的系統和制度？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:35:09.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:35:30.636364+08:00","text":"通報的擴大要從兩個部分，第一個是把現在食安法第七條規定只有產品的異常才通報，擴大到原料、半成品、高風險加工鏈裡面的這些……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:35:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:35:35.500000+08:00","text":"不管有沒有收貨，不管有沒有買，它一發現……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:35:35.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:35:36.500000+08:00","text":"對，這個在我們的修法裡面有提出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:35:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:35:46.666667+08:00","text":"我們這次的討論一共有幾個，第一個是檢驗機關發現了也要通報。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:35:46.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:35:47.666667+08:00","text":"也要通報，對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:35:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:35:55.500000+08:00","text":"第二個，生產供應鏈上發現了，不管有沒有收貨，也要通報。對。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:35:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:36:05.785714+08:00","text":"第三個是HACCP的認證有發現重大異常，也要通報，也就是強化了HACCP過程裡面……","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:36:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:36:10.571429+08:00","text":"是，理論上是如此，但我要再跟你講，徒法不足以自行。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:36:11.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:36:34.666667+08:00","text":"如果你現在說都要通報的話，未來任何食品大廠在供應商端驗出重金屬、黃麴毒素、塑化劑、苯駢芘等重大異常事件的超標，只要拒收、退貨，統統都要通報，都有通報責任？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:36:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:36:35.800000+08:00","text":"對，我們會去……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:36:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:36:39.714286+08:00","text":"現在法是要這樣子明確地再更擴大。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:36:42.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:36:44.833333+08:00","text":"現行法沒有通報義務，這一次要補吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:36:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:36:45.833333+08:00","text":"對，這一次要補。好。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:36:46.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:36:55.428571+08:00","text":"我們要講的是，重大食安異常、重大風險要怎麼界定，你也要想一想。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:36:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:37:29.777778+08:00","text":"總而言之，立法、修法的目的是這些異常資訊不能夠只是停留在業者手上，資訊沒有進入主管機關，政府就不可能及早封存、追查、比對同來源的流向；不能即時通知其他下游業者，就不可能發生預警的作用，所以有沒有建立風險資訊的責任很重要，而不是只看有沒有買。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:37:30.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:37:43.800000+08:00","text":"在這裡我們要請部長再想一下，通報到你們這裡，你們接下來要怎麼進行？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:37:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:37:52.800000+08:00","text":"因為它可以把不合格的拿回去，可能賣給工業製造，可是你怎麼知道它真的是賣給工業製造？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:37:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:38:03.555556+08:00","text":"然後業者會說會精煉，精煉成產品以後是沒有的，你怎麼樣確保、確認、確定安全、它是真的符合標準了？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:38:06.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:38:09.714286+08:00","text":"徒法不足以自行，接下來是執行面。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:38:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:38:16.750000+08:00","text":"法的執行面很重要，在這種狀況裡面，地方政府有足夠的人跟錢嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:38:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:38:24.625000+08:00","text":"接下來就要談地方政府的編制，需不需要給人跟錢？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:38:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:38:32.500000+08:00","text":"專責的、專職的、負責的業務承辦員需不需要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:38:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:38:35.700000+08:00","text":"這可能也是必要的配套。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:38:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:38:49.666667+08:00","text":"你利用現有的人力，大家都是兼職、兼任，出事了，才來講說你去幾次、8年沒驗1次，這都來不及了。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:38:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:38:59.800000+08:00","text":"我們想要的是專職、專責的業務承辦員，他對HACCP制度的管理是不是落實？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:39:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:39:01.750000+08:00","text":"有沒有可能這方面也同時檢討？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:39:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:39:09.600000+08:00","text":"人力的強化是要的，我們過去也一直在提升稽查的人力。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:39:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:39:10.333333+08:00","text":"要專職、專責喔！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:39:10.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:39:17.800000+08:00","text":"要專責，不是稽查而已，要專職、專責、負責最高風險，就是這幾個項目而已。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:39:19.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:39:39.733333+08:00","text":"在制度上要彌補，如果這個風險是有通報進來，主管機關當時知道了這個檢驗結果，再透過製程的調整來處理，而不是業者自己說了算，結果現行的制度是沒有這個制度。","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:39:40.266667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:40:30.666667+08:00","text":"台糖拒收是保護了台糖自己的商譽，並沒有保護到公共的食安，它只保護到自己的商譽，可是拒收不能作為風險的終點，對主管機關來講，新的制度、未來的制度，我們應當要理解，而且要把拒收當作是啟動封存的點，一開始拒收就要通報、就要啟動封存，拒收就要追查、加密檢驗或是限制流向的起點，我們希望制度應該要這樣才對，如果沒有這樣的話，拒收、異常資訊等等這樣的歷史仍會不斷的重演。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:40:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:40:37.666667+08:00","text":"拒收要通報，然後要啟動政府的責任，這很重要！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:40:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:40:38.666667+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:40:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:40:41.833333+08:00","text":"這個東西為什麼要有專職專責的業務承辦員？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:40:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:40:59.368421+08:00","text":"因為未來也有可能會發生，如果一家乳品廠在供應商端驗出牛奶、原料奶有重大污染，但他只是拒收，他的產品安全了，可是被拒收的那批原料會流到哪裡去？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:40:59.526316+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:40:59.842105+08:00","text":"不知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:41:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:41:40.714286+08:00","text":"如果一家嬰幼兒食品業者在供應商端驗出大宗原料重金屬超標，只是拒收、退貨，這樣一來只是他沒有了，但那個原料還會再賣給別人；如果食用油脂發生與這次類似的情況，然後只是拒收，主管機關不知道這個原料還停留在中聯、在等待下一個買方，而下一個買方沒有像台糖這麼高標準，結果做成食品後大家吃下肚，現行的情況就是這個樣子，所以這絕對不是一個假設的題目，中聯就是這樣子！","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:41:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:42:28.700000+08:00","text":"所以未來的修法我們要求要有拒收、退貨通報的機制，就是主管機關要介入、確認封存、流向、後續處理，在這種狀況裡面，我們政府的責任就來了，所以我們要再講一遍，整個最上游少數壟斷的廠商、這一些原料供應的食品業者HACCP制度沒有在做，也沒有在遵守，食安法的管理也有制度面的漏洞，但是在這個裡面，我們一定要開始把自主管理制度收回。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:42:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:42:50.666667+08:00","text":"我再強調一次，以前都是叫業者自主管理，包括HACCP制度，也是叫業者自主管理，我們從現在開始要把業者自主管理收回來，改成高度的政府監管，部長同意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:42:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:42:53.571429+08:00","text":"就是高度的政府監管。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:42:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:43:01.500000+08:00","text":"更高程度的管理，我們絕對會支持，所以在這一次的修法裡面，也要求了很多強制性的作為。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:43:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:43:07.750000+08:00","text":"更高程度的管理到底是要政府管理還是業者自己管理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:43:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:43:10.800000+08:00","text":"包含了外部專業人員的管理介入也都是。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:43:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:43:42.714286+08:00","text":"我現在告訴你，沒有所謂有良心的業者，我現在告訴你，沒有這一回事，所以就制度面，你好好的想一下，我認為沒有所謂有道德、有良知的業者，只有法律要怎麼規定，法律是最低的標準，他都可以不遵守了，若法律授權給業者自主管理，那一定會破功，而且食安系統性的風暴會不斷的上演，這是我要提醒你的。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:43:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:44:21.555556+08:00","text":"好，就這一次中聯毒油事件的311油槽，我再提醒你一個重大的異常，不能只追單一交易，應該要啟動同槽或是同船期、同來源的橫向警示，未來只要高風險食品原料在供應商端驗出重大超標，你就要開始要求業者立即提供同槽、同船期、同來源、同製程、同批次的完整資料，並通知可能受影響的買方進行檢驗或暫停使用。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:44:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:44:33.666667+08:00","text":"如果沒有這道橫向的指示，政府永遠都是在等下一個下游驗出超標，再回溯去找上游，政府不能這麼被動！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:44:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:44:52.750000+08:00","text":"換言之，跟那個油槽同一批貨來的、同一個船期的、同一批精煉的，還有其他的東西一起查、一起驗，你只驗那一槽也不行，只驗那一批也不行。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:44:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:44:56.500000+08:00","text":"當然你們這次擴大驗了3個月，請問有幾批呢？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:44:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:45:04.500000+08:00","text":"一共是30批，不過那一個是沒有成批的，是在槽裡的，另外的則是有30批是做完精鍊的。","quality":0.606},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:45:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:45:24.714286+08:00","text":"我現在跟你說的不是那幾批而已，其實同船期、同一批來源的，都有很大的風險，然後食品雲不能只追產品流向，按照現在食品雲的管理方法……還有你們表示要修法來強化數位治理，你的數位治理是要治理什麼？","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:45:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:45:32.833333+08:00","text":"你們說要強化數位治理，請問要治理什麼？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:45:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:45:40.833333+08:00","text":"當然就是強化剛剛所談前面的通報，包含檢驗的通報，我們會將其建立起來，過去的檢驗是沒有直接通報的。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:45:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:45:57.600000+08:00","text":"對，你們過去只記錄進貨、出貨流向，只看得到已經進入供應鏈的資料，沒有看到被退貨的、不合格的、封槽採樣的、拒收的、檢驗異常的，通通都沒有嘛！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:45:58.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:46:00.750000+08:00","text":"當然就看不到最早的風險訊號嘛！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:46:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:46:17.666667+08:00","text":"但在這種狀況下，你可以看到，這風險訊號都沒有出現在台糖的生產資料裡面，也不會出現在台糖的產品流向，也沒有進入台糖的進貨資料，通通都沒有啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:46:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:46:21.888889+08:00","text":"可是這一批油沒有消失吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:46:22.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:46:24.625000+08:00","text":"仍然在311油槽裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:46:25.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:47:24.687500+08:00","text":"換言之，你整個食品雲制度只看得到產品的流向，但是看不到重大異常的檢驗結果，如果業者在供應商端採樣驗收前，委託代工檢驗、自主檢驗、第三方實驗室檢驗，進而發現重大超標不合格而有拒收、退貨、封槽暫停存放的訊息，這個就是很重要的內部品管資料，對主管機關而言，這個就是一個風險的警訊，我們都應該要掌握，我不是說所有不合格都要登錄，應該強制登錄的是高風險食品業別，重大污染物超過法定標準或達一定倍數，可能影響多家下游的異常結果，這種狀況我們要予以記錄，你們想的方向跟我講的方向是一致的嗎？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:47:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:47:29.705882+08:00","text":"對，我們過去在登錄的部分，是包括進跟出，即原料的進跟出，但是中間……","quality":0.536},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:47:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:47:36.666667+08:00","text":"進跟出，而且只登錄合格的進跟出。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:47:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:47:38.833333+08:00","text":"對，就是進入它的加工鏈的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:47:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:48:48.750000+08:00","text":"它是合格的，但我希望你們開始要建置登錄不合格的，叫他要登錄出來，我們不能夠只要求業者把合格的資料給政府看、只登錄合格的資料，真正的風險往往是出在不合格的資料，因為合格資料告訴政府什麼可以出貨，可是不合格的資料卻是告訴政府哪裡可能正要出事了，所以你的食品雲登錄只要求業者登錄進貨、出貨產品流向，沒有納入不合格的重大異常檢驗結果，政府永遠慢半拍，人民永遠都要把有毒的吃進去以後，才在那裡氣急敗壞，究責於政府，然後永遠要等到下游驗出超標，產品已經進入所有各個機關、團饍、家庭，政府才要回頭追流向、查原因，這不是數位治理，而是把已經發生的交易紀錄電子化而已。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:48:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:49:38.625000+08:00","text":"所以真正有預警價值的是要登錄重大異常檢驗資訊，不能讓這個異常檢驗資訊留在業者手上而已，要叫他登錄，但如果他不登錄，經第三方檢驗出來或是買主將其退貨後也一樣都要通報，既然你會被通報，不如你自己主動登錄，當你登錄有異常資訊的時候，主管機關要通知地方政府，對於那一批次、那些貨，要予以高度監管，因為它超標很多，最後他要怎麼處理、安不安全、流向哪裡，政府要給人民交代。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:49:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:49:57.714286+08:00","text":"我再講最後一句，人民的期待是架上的東西應該都是政府把關過的，都是安全的，而現在並不是，我們希望未來都應該要是這樣子。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:49:59.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:50:40.333333+08:00","text":"部長，叫他們不合格、異常要登錄，如果依你的HACCP制度要通報，如果第三方檢驗的實驗室要通報，如果像台糖買到也要通報了，那登錄對業者來講是同樣一件事，業者也沒有壓力了，越透明、越公開對消費者越有保障，但對業者自己來講也是有保障的，不要等到被人家通報了再來被處分，對不對？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:50:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:50:43.571429+08:00","text":"部長，你同意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:50:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:50:50.800000+08:00","text":"有，因為這一次我們是要求連自設實驗室的檢驗也要通報，就等於是登錄，概念是一樣的。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:50:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:04.842105+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯，所以我們希望所有的制度都不是參考用的，你們到目前為止HACCP制度不是只有食用油脂，全國工廠符合HACCP的廠商有幾間？","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:04.842105+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:08+08:00","text":"這個要查一下，有很多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:24.583333+08:00","text":"其實HACCP食品廠都是大廠、超級大廠，食藥署署長，HACCP制度的所有食品加工廠應該要全部好好盤整一次啦！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:30+08:00","text":"我不好意思說百分之百造假，但是很多啦！","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:33.500000+08:00","text":"虛與委蛇啦！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:35.500000+08:00","text":"書面作業啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:38.700000+08:00","text":"不是真正的HACCP啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:41+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:42.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:42.800000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:43.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:51:56.636364+08:00","text":"抱歉，我再問最後一個問題，就是臺灣苦茶油的事情，我現在請問署長，苦茶油沒有品名標示的標準，對不對？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:51:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:52:05.333333+08:00","text":"沒有訂定品名標示的標準，意思就是說臺灣根本沒有界定什麼叫做苦茶油，沒有嘛？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T13:52:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:52:08.812500+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，我們知道要去做一些修正。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:52:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:52:10.750000+08:00","text":"我知道你們沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T13:52:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:52:12.363636+08:00","text":"在油品的部分，的確苯駢芘就是2ppb……","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬：沒有，不是這樣子啦！我現在要講幾個重點","start":"2026-08-05T13:52:15.909091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:52:28.666667+08:00","text":"第一個，臺灣沒有訂定什麼叫做苦茶油的標準，沒有品名標示的標準，所以混油也可以叫做苦茶油。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬：沒有，不是這樣子啦！我現在要講幾個重點","start":"2026-08-05T13:52:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:52:40.666667+08:00","text":"第二個，因為沒有規定什麼油才能夠叫做苦茶油，所以會有混油，但是臺灣目前沒有苦茶油混油的檢驗方法，對不對？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T13:52:44.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:52:56.733333+08:00","text":"報告委員，就這個部分我們的確有在積極的研議，因為裡面可能有混沙拉油、大豆油等等，對於它的成分，以目前的檢驗，我們有信心應該是可以開發出來。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:52:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:53:01.833333+08:00","text":"好，目前你們沒有檢驗方法，所以我講這個是什麼意思呢？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:53:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:53:10.846154+08:00","text":"因為新聞報導中國的種子來的時候檢驗並沒有苯駢芘超標，有很多報導是這樣講的。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:53:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:53:16.785714+08:00","text":"他不是驗那個苦茶籽，他是說做出來的苦茶油沒有超標。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:53:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:53:22.800000+08:00","text":"對，但是有機商店的、永豐餘的都超標，一樣是最末端的產品都超標啊！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:53:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:53:31.333333+08:00","text":"我現在不是要講這個，我是要跟你講，其實我自己高度懷疑是混油，混油啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:53:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:53:35.833333+08:00","text":"真正超標的來源有沒有可能是加了很多的大豆沙拉油？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:53:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:53:49.750000+08:00","text":"因為加了大豆沙拉油的苦茶油沒有違法，法律並沒有規定什麼叫做苦茶油，現在也沒有檢驗混油的方法，沒有啊！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:53:50.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:53:55.250000+08:00","text":"我希望你們要去改善，你們要嚴格管理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:53:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:54:09.777778+08:00","text":"第三個，我們有很多人關心臺灣的農業，也有很多委員在關心，我們希望要標示原料來源國，這個你們會不會支持？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:54:10.615385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:54:16.833333+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們現在對油品的標示有要求，如果是混油的，就不能稱為……","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:54:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:54:17.714286+08:00","text":"我不是在講混油啦！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:54:18.272727+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:54:20.727273+08:00","text":"就要標示為調合油。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:54:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:54:23.800000+08:00","text":"沒有，你的苦茶油沒有訂定品名標示的標準啊！","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:54:24.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:54:27.714286+08:00","text":"現在混油哪裡有調合油這種名稱？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T13:54:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:54:29.600000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個是通則啦！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:54:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:54:46.600000+08:00","text":"好，我不是要講這個，我是講即使沒有混油，但是你的種子來自中國，你也要標示原料種子是來自中國，我是要要求這個，有沒有意見？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T13:54:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:54:49.875000+08:00","text":"對於原料原產地的部分，的確我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:54:51.176471+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:55:42.733333+08:00","text":"特別是這些農產品的原料原產地要標示來源國，因為社會高度關注，也是在這一次的苦茶油事件裡面大家相當關注的，我們除了要立法、要修法之外，我在講苦茶油，包括其他的油品都一樣，要有品名標示的標準，在訂定出來以後就要有檢驗的方法，如果沒有檢驗方法，你沒有辦法證明它混油，你說不可以混油，現行的通則就是規定不能混，如果混的話就要標示調合油，但是你沒有苦茶油混油的檢驗方法，你怎麼去確認它是真的沒有混油？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:55:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:55:47.545455+08:00","text":"如果他在那裡硬拗，你要怎麼確認？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:55:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:55:53.333333+08:00","text":"你連檢驗方法都沒有公告，現在也沒辦法檢驗，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:55:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:56:09.666667+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，對於這個檢驗方法，現在食藥署已經在積極開發，去驗它的脂肪酸比例，就是不同的脂肪酸，我們現在在查的時候是根據它的原料採購證明，就是多少的……對啦！","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:56:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:56:11.666667+08:00","text":"你們是要證明它是中國原料……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:56:12.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:56:15.500000+08:00","text":"對，看是中國原料還是在地的，因為……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-08-05T13:56:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:57:17.500000+08:00","text":"但是人家用中國原料製成的苦茶油就是有好幾批驗出苯駢芘沒有超標，我不是替中國的種子講話，我是要告訴你，真正風險的來源有可能是來自混油，在你們公布中聯有問題批次流向的時候，就發現有很多製油工廠買了很多大豆沙拉油，這個是事實，包括苦茶油工廠也有買大豆沙拉油，所以可能混油，可是你們一直都沒有朝混油的方向，我也可以理解你們沒有朝混油的方向，因為你們並沒有檢驗的方法，所以這對你們來講是非常困難的，過去沒有做出規範，未來我們希望你們儘速把該補起來的洞補起來，把食品安全還給我們人民，就是這樣子。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T13:57:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:57:20.785714+08:00","text":"好，我們趕快來開發這個檢驗方法。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T13:57:25.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T13:57:27.700000+08:00","text":"謝謝林淑芬委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T13:57:28.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:57:31.342857+08:00","text":"我們現在休息，休息到2點30分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T13:57:31.642857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:57:32.785714+08:00","text":"休息（13時57分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T13:57:33.085714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:57:34.800000+08:00","text":"繼續開會（14時31分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T13:57:35.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:57:37.671429+08:00","text":"好，我們現在開始開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T13:57:37.971429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T13:57:39.685714+08:00","text":"請王正旭委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}