{"error":false,"id":["170850"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170850,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170850","日期":"2026-08-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-08-05T13:22:24+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-05T13:57:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:35:03","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d053bb9b075f6aea9da6930f95a2da9dcd75ebd3fcd1029c8febdbf0d712d30d3af29b1e480214c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"13:22:24 - 13:57:27","會議時間":"2026-08-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院食品安全辦公室、教育部、國防部、經濟部、台灣糖業股份有限公司及行政院消費者保護處就「從致癌油事件發展迄今，中央一味『蓋牌、吃案、當門神』有關行政究責之重做完整調查報告(含台糖失職、食安警訊斷鏈責任、團體訴訟求償進度)及未來如何確保安全無虞的國軍團膳、學生營養午餐」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午2時30分起，若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、審查行政院函請審議「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員郭國文等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員李彥秀等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員羅智強等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、審查委員盧縣一等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十、審查委員王育敏等25人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十一、審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十二、審查委員林月琴等24人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十三、審查委員林淑芬等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十五、審查委員李坤城等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十六、審查委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十七、審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第二十至二十二案，如經復議則不予審查；第一案及第二十三至三十七案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.56909375,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.75409375,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.53034375,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.37909375000001,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.41784375,"end":129.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.18784375,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.44846875000002,"end":168.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.84846875000002,"end":190.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.41471875000002,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.33346875,"end":230.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.21846875000003,"end":234.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.08284375000002,"end":237.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.30596875,"end":260.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.66534375000003,"end":265.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.99784375,"end":278.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.04221875,"end":289.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.80846875000003,"end":298.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.70159375000003,"end":305.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.49784375,"end":311.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.13409375000003,"end":316.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.24721875,"end":328.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.86971875,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.45909375,"end":349.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.44471875000005,"end":380.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.74784375,"end":390.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.94034375,"end":394.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.72034375000004,"end":397.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.28534375000004,"end":404.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.59221875000003,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.28784375000004,"end":429.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.05659375000005,"end":443.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.06284375,"end":448.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.99034375,"end":483.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.80346875000004,"end":505.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.28534375000004,"end":508.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.90909375,"end":524.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.7422187500001,"end":526.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.22284375,"end":533.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.92221875,"end":538.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.7822187500001,"end":540.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.03096875,"end":550.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.8984687500001,"end":557.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.85096875,"end":559.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.86346875,"end":560.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.53409375,"end":560.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.83784375,"end":589.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.5928437499999,"end":563.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.47034375,"end":591.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.34346875,"end":594.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.27534375,"end":599.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.2578437500001,"end":602.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.86909375,"end":605.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.40471875,"end":607.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.75034375,"end":611.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.42909375,"end":613.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.8715937500001,"end":618.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.3603437500001,"end":621.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.41909375,"end":629.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.60346875,"end":629.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.12221875,"end":633.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.7547187499999,"end":635.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.35784375,"end":644.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.1115937500001,"end":647.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.16596875,"end":650.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.11909375,"end":652.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.89096875,"end":654.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.88221875,"end":656.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.8859687500001,"end":658.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.2822187500001,"end":661.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.79659375,"end":665.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.01971875,"end":675.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.43159375,"end":677.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.91659375,"end":686.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.8559687500001,"end":691.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.1928437500001,"end":692.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.6103437500001,"end":696.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.49159375,"end":697.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.63909375,"end":699.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.61346875,"end":702.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.87471875,"end":705.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.35534375,"end":711.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.69596875,"end":717.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.33221875,"end":727.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.76534375,"end":733.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.5490937500001,"end":739.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.7422187500001,"end":743.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.3703437500001,"end":747.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.09971875,"end":753.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.6809687500001,"end":758.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.08534375,"end":765.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.4765937500001,"end":767.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.1853437500001,"end":773.1084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.72846875,"end":781.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":781.9678437500002,"end":788.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":787.67159375,"end":792.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":789.2747187500001,"end":790.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":791.31659375,"end":791.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.68346875,"end":797.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.4765937500001,"end":794.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.11346875,"end":799.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.75409375,"end":800.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":800.0915937500001,"end":802.0828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.0828437500002,"end":802.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":802.26846875,"end":802.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.4540937500001,"end":803.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":802.4709687500001,"end":803.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.66909375,"end":811.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":811.3134687500001,"end":811.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":811.9040937500001,"end":818.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":818.87346875,"end":822.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":821.7084687500001,"end":826.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.7834687500001,"end":833.3015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.0947187500001,"end":845.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":846.39659375,"end":848.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":848.4384687500001,"end":849.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.36221875,"end":855.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":852.77534375,"end":853.9734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":858.0234687500001,"end":862.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":860.9765937500001,"end":861.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":862.5122187500001,"end":864.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":865.4484687500001,"end":881.3953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.6653437500001,"end":890.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":890.96346875,"end":891.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":891.03096875,"end":898.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.4897187500001,"end":907.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":907.75409375,"end":912.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":913.33971875,"end":916.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":916.74846875,"end":920.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":921.08534375,"end":921.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":922.08096875,"end":928.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.98284375,"end":936.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":937.0828437500002,"end":940.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":941.1159687500001,"end":941.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":943.46159375,"end":949.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":949.24971875,"end":954.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":954.3290937500001,"end":955.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":956.2022187500002,"end":959.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":959.89784375,"end":961.8384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":962.41221875,"end":965.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":965.97284375,"end":968.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":969.8372187500001,"end":976.3172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":976.94159375,"end":982.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":983.97846875,"end":985.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":986.1384687500001,"end":990.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":990.98159375,"end":998.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":998.8115937500002,"end":998.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":998.86221875,"end":1006.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1003.08096875,"end":1004.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1006.00034375,"end":1014.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1015.14659375,"end":1015.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1016.31096875,"end":1019.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1019.6015937500001,"end":1031.9034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1032.51096875,"end":1035.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1036.5103437500002,"end":1042.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1044.1040937500002,"end":1061.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1061.6878437500002,"end":1066.1765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1066.6322187500002,"end":1073.8040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1074.4622187500001,"end":1077.5672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1078.2422187500001,"end":1079.9803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1080.6384687500001,"end":1082.3428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1083.15284375,"end":1086.7303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1087.8272187500002,"end":1088.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1089.88596875,"end":1094.7628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1095.3197187500002,"end":1100.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1100.4834687500002,"end":1102.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1102.96409375,"end":1107.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1108.04346875,"end":1109.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1110.2034687500002,"end":1116.3797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1117.32471875,"end":1124.4122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1124.8172187500002,"end":1127.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1129.0697187500002,"end":1133.6934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1134.04784375,"end":1137.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1138.09784375,"end":1162.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1163.8997187500001,"end":1170.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1171.29096875,"end":1177.1297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1177.65284375,"end":1184.5884687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1184.7572187500002,"end":1191.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1191.82784375,"end":1195.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1195.6753437500001,"end":1198.6453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1198.86471875,"end":1199.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1200.3834687500002,"end":1205.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1206.18846875,"end":1213.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1214.5078437500001,"end":1224.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1225.6622187500002,"end":1227.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1227.4678437500002,"end":1229.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1230.1678437500002,"end":1238.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1238.09909375,"end":1243.3809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1243.70159375,"end":1246.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1246.68846875,"end":1249.3040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1249.65846875,"end":1253.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1254.3159687500001,"end":1267.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1267.36034375,"end":1298.3934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1298.57909375,"end":1304.4347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1305.16034375,"end":1315.8253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1316.56784375,"end":1328.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1329.3422187500003,"end":1330.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1331.2490937500002,"end":1333.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1333.6622187500002,"end":1335.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1335.5859687500001,"end":1337.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1337.5940937500002,"end":1338.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1339.1465937500002,"end":1340.1422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1340.8509687500002,"end":1341.8128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1342.5047187500002,"end":1343.9390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1345.1540937500001,"end":1352.5115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1353.28784375,"end":1354.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1354.70534375,"end":1355.9034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1355.5659687500001,"end":1355.8697187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1355.9034687500002,"end":1362.5015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1360.0715937500001,"end":1360.3753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1360.9659687500002,"end":1364.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1364.37471875,"end":1368.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1368.5090937500001,"end":1370.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1370.7703437500002,"end":1385.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1386.3965937500002,"end":1389.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1389.41721875,"end":1397.7703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1397.7703437500002,"end":1423.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1402.91721875,"end":1403.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1424.02784375,"end":1428.7528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1429.2759687500002,"end":1433.6297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1434.5072187500002,"end":1435.3340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1435.7897187500002,"end":1441.1222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1441.6959687500002,"end":1464.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1465.0509687500003,"end":1467.7172187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1469.2359687500002,"end":1476.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1477.2178437500002,"end":1493.9747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1494.2784687500002,"end":1501.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1501.21409375,"end":1511.4234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1506.6647187500002,"end":1509.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1510.1072187500001,"end":1513.3978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1513.3978437500002,"end":1516.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1516.0303437500002,"end":1516.0809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1516.0809687500002,"end":1516.9078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1516.9078437500002,"end":1522.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1517.0259687500002,"end":1517.0597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1523.4722187500001,"end":1545.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1545.6290937500003,"end":1555.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1556.49659375,"end":1564.6978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1565.5753437500002,"end":1570.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1570.0809687500002,"end":1572.1565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1572.64596875,"end":1573.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1573.6922187500002,"end":1575.9534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1576.32471875,"end":1578.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1578.97409375,"end":1578.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1579.0922187500003,"end":1581.3028437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1581.5390937500001,"end":1585.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1585.7915937500002,"end":1586.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1586.85471875,"end":1597.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1598.2284687500003,"end":1599.0722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1599.9159687500003,"end":1608.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1609.3153437500002,"end":1610.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1611.2390937500002,"end":1614.1078437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1614.4622187500001,"end":1619.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1619.49096875,"end":1621.8028437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1622.73096875,"end":1626.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1627.62471875,"end":1631.2190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1632.2147187500002,"end":1634.4590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1636.09596875,"end":1638.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1638.47534375,"end":1640.4159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1640.7534687500001,"end":1642.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1643.3522187500002,"end":1647.2672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1647.48659375,"end":1654.2872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1655.3165937500003,"end":1663.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1663.6697187500001,"end":1670.3184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1670.8584687500002,"end":1671.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1672.4615937500002,"end":1673.8622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1674.7059687500002,"end":1676.8153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1678.26659375,"end":1680.8653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1681.6753437500001,"end":1685.1347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1685.9615937500002,"end":1689.0328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1689.6909687500001,"end":1695.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1695.7828437500002,"end":1696.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1698.1790937500002,"end":1699.6978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1699.6978437500002,"end":1699.7484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1699.7484687500003,"end":1699.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1699.8834687500002,"end":1706.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1706.26221875,"end":1711.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1712.2697187500003,"end":1717.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1718.2265937500001,"end":1722.4790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1724.7065937500001,"end":1728.8240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1724.9259687500003,"end":1726.0228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1726.0228437500002,"end":1726.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1726.91721875,"end":1727.0353437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1729.58346875,"end":1731.2540937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1731.6759687500003,"end":1736.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1736.63721875,"end":1740.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1741.5815937500001,"end":1748.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1749.3272187500002,"end":1752.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1752.8878437500002,"end":1756.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1756.9715937500002,"end":1758.1190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1758.86159375,"end":1759.0472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1760.97096875,"end":1761.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1761.4603437500002,"end":1765.9828437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1766.2528437500002,"end":1766.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1766.7590937500001,"end":1768.9190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1769.2903437500001,"end":1772.1590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1773.3909687500002,"end":1780.4447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1780.7315937500002,"end":1781.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1782.06471875,"end":1791.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1785.5915937500001,"end":1786.9247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1790.2659687500002,"end":1811.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1811.8322187500003,"end":1816.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1817.2828437500002,"end":1819.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1820.1347187500003,"end":1822.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1822.6659687500003,"end":1833.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1833.3309687500002,"end":1838.0728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1838.4947187500002,"end":1844.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1845.4134687500002,"end":1847.6747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1847.6747187500002,"end":1854.4247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1853.5134687500001,"end":1867.4522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1860.7697187500003,"end":1861.2759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1861.9003437500003,"end":1862.1365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1868.2115937500002,"end":1880.1590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1881.0197187500003,"end":1888.8328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1889.3053437500002,"end":1905.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1906.36596875,"end":1916.8959687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1906.78784375,"end":1908.3909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1913.1328437500001,"end":1914.7359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1916.5922187500003,"end":1920.3384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1920.3722187500002,"end":1924.0678437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1923.51096875,"end":1924.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1924.64159375,"end":1926.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1925.8059687500001,"end":1928.9278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1928.9784687500003,"end":1938.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1939.3059687500001,"end":1940.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1941.66846875,"end":1942.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1942.51221875,"end":1946.6465937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1946.2415937500002,"end":1950.5615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1950.7134687500002,"end":1964.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1964.5003437500002,"end":1970.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1970.6090937500003,"end":1974.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1975.0472187500002,"end":1981.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1981.32471875,"end":1983.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1984.0247187500001,"end":1990.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1990.2347187500002,"end":1995.0440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1995.4828437500003,"end":2000.8490937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2002.41846875,"end":2008.2234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2008.9828437500003,"end":2009.5734687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2010.3834687500002,"end":2027.8153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2016.4415937500003,"end":2016.7959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2016.8297187500002,"end":2016.8465937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2026.5665937500003,"end":2033.8565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2034.4134687500002,"end":2040.5728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2041.1128437500001,"end":2048.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2048.9597187500003,"end":2065.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2065.8347187500003,"end":2084.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2084.49846875,"end":2085.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2085.7809687500003,"end":2092.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2092.34534375,"end":2093.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2093.71221875,"end":2093.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2094.57284375,"end":2096.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2101.44096875,"end":2101.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2102.20034375,"end":2103.95534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0,"end":12,"text":"主席 各位大家午安 是不是請我們石部長"},{"start":12,"end":14,"text":"好 請石部長"},{"start":14,"end":18,"text":"好 委員好"},{"start":18,"end":24,"text":"部長 午安 我現在在這裡跟你溝通最重要的一個觀念"},{"start":24,"end":29,"text":"就是我們的石安法 它不是用來 只是用來事後究責"},{"start":29,"end":34,"text":"整個石安法最重要的精神是在於事前預防"},{"start":34,"end":37,"text":"這幾年發生這麼多的重大的石安事件以後"},{"start":37,"end":40,"text":"我們一修再修又修"},{"start":40,"end":45,"text":"從源頭管理 業者自主管理 追溯追蹤 HACCP"},{"start":45,"end":51,"text":"到這一次我們還要再修 強化異常通報 品質管理及數位治理"},{"start":51,"end":54,"text":"這整個核心概念非常的清楚"},{"start":54,"end":59,"text":"所以石安絕對不能夠等到產品出事以後才補救"},{"start":59,"end":66,"text":"而是要讓風險在進入市場以前要被辨識 被通報 被處理"},{"start":66,"end":70,"text":"所以這個中聯這個獨有的案件"},{"start":70,"end":77,"text":"中聯它們全部都是HACCP的制度運作的"},{"start":77,"end":82,"text":"從你們以前的所謂的2021年的"},{"start":82,"end":86,"text":"實用油脂工廠實施衛生管理及食品安全管制系統"},{"start":86,"end":89,"text":"概況的調查報告"},{"start":89,"end":92,"text":"我們就可以看得出來 裡面的調查報告說"},{"start":92,"end":97,"text":"他們的數據經常造假 那為什麼要經常造假"},{"start":97,"end":102,"text":"因為他們進行了危害分析以後要設管制點"},{"start":102,"end":106,"text":"設完管制點以後發現檢查起來都還是異常的話"},{"start":106,"end":110,"text":"他們要做矯正 矯正措施做好用"},{"start":110,"end":113,"text":"還要回去把他們的危害重新分析"},{"start":113,"end":115,"text":"然後再重新設管制點"},{"start":115,"end":117,"text":"你們的調查報告說"},{"start":117,"end":120,"text":"你們這次獨有事件來講說"},{"start":120,"end":123,"text":"他們都沒有設好管制點 沒有照落實"},{"start":123,"end":126,"text":"他們當然不能設好管制點"},{"start":126,"end":129,"text":"因為他們設的管制點還是不通過"},{"start":129,"end":133,"text":"所以他們的問題就是他們必須要造假"},{"start":133,"end":136,"text":"否則就不能符合HACCP"},{"start":136,"end":138,"text":"所以在這個過程裡面"},{"start":138,"end":143,"text":"整個危害預警的制度HACCP"},{"start":143,"end":146,"text":"是瓦解淪於紙上作業"},{"start":146,"end":147,"text":"這是我講過的"},{"start":147,"end":151,"text":"但是它並不是只是如此而已"},{"start":151,"end":156,"text":"我要講說從大家講了一整個早上"},{"start":156,"end":158,"text":"都在講台糖台糖"},{"start":158,"end":160,"text":"那所值的爭點都說"},{"start":160,"end":162,"text":"到底有沒有通報義務或是沒有通報義務"},{"start":162,"end":163,"text":"我現在要告訴你"},{"start":163,"end":168,"text":"我不想只是談通報義務這個概念"},{"start":168,"end":173,"text":"不能夠只問責台糖有沒有通報義務"},{"start":173,"end":176,"text":"也不是只問責中聯要怎麼裁罰"},{"start":176,"end":178,"text":"怎麼處罰的更重"},{"start":178,"end":181,"text":"甚至說回到不是只有這樣子"},{"start":181,"end":183,"text":"因為對人民來講"},{"start":183,"end":187,"text":"我們希望不管食安法還是HACCP的制度"},{"start":187,"end":190,"text":"都能夠要發揮預警的作用"},{"start":190,"end":194,"text":"不能夠做到只是事後究責"},{"start":194,"end":196,"text":"還要事前預防"},{"start":197,"end":200,"text":"在這個地方我們知道台糖的責任"},{"start":200,"end":201,"text":"有沒有責任"},{"start":201,"end":205,"text":"釐清中聯這個始作俑者最過分的"},{"start":205,"end":207,"text":"我們要問責清楚"},{"start":207,"end":208,"text":"可是更重要的是"},{"start":208,"end":210,"text":"現行的食安法"},{"start":210,"end":212,"text":"現行的HACCP制度"},{"start":212,"end":214,"text":"現行的所有安全管理的制度"},{"start":214,"end":218,"text":"有沒有辦法讓重大的食安警訊"},{"start":218,"end":222,"text":"在供應鏈生產鏈的供應鏈的內部"},{"start":222,"end":224,"text":"你們就要掌握"},{"start":224,"end":226,"text":"不是只有業者掌握"},{"start":226,"end":230,"text":"現在的問題就是所有的重大的風險"},{"start":230,"end":234,"text":"在還沒成為產品以前就發現到的"},{"start":234,"end":237,"text":"不能只是業者知道"},{"start":237,"end":241,"text":"而是政府也要管制要知道"},{"start":241,"end":244,"text":"否則我們修了這麼多次的食安法"},{"start":244,"end":246,"text":"每一次發生單一事件"},{"start":246,"end":247,"text":"每一次發生單一事件"},{"start":247,"end":249,"text":"系統性的風暴"},{"start":249,"end":252,"text":"每次都還是在等下游減出鈔票"},{"start":252,"end":254,"text":"產品大家都吃下肚"},{"start":254,"end":257,"text":"等媒體大幅報導"},{"start":257,"end":260,"text":"然後吹哨者出現才開始補救"},{"start":260,"end":263,"text":"這個是不能夠這樣的"},{"start":263,"end":266,"text":"所以我今天就開始要來講說"},{"start":266,"end":268,"text":"中聯獨有案件"},{"start":268,"end":271,"text":"為什麼重大的食安警訊"},{"start":271,"end":276,"text":"卻斷訊在供應鏈的業者的內部"},{"start":276,"end":278,"text":"就斷訊了"},{"start":278,"end":280,"text":"我現在講的是這件事"},{"start":280,"end":284,"text":"當然我們的食安法一定要管理原料"},{"start":284,"end":286,"text":"這個是開宗明義就講"},{"start":286,"end":289,"text":"我們食安法不是只有管產品來管原料"},{"start":289,"end":293,"text":"但是在現行的第七條裡面"},{"start":293,"end":295,"text":"的確也規定"},{"start":295,"end":298,"text":"當你進入生產程序"},{"start":298,"end":302,"text":"成為產品發現異常才客折"},{"start":302,"end":304,"text":"業者要通報"},{"start":304,"end":306,"text":"可是這樣子是不行的"},{"start":306,"end":309,"text":"要管原料那什麼時候要管到哪裡"},{"start":309,"end":312,"text":"在客折通報的時候"},{"start":312,"end":315,"text":"沒有把原料這一環放進去"},{"start":315,"end":317,"text":"而獨有事件"},{"start":317,"end":319,"text":"台航事件"},{"start":319,"end":324,"text":"就是把重大的14.7PPB的原料"},{"start":324,"end":326,"text":"這個重大的風險"},{"start":326,"end":329,"text":"竟然斷訊在供應鏈的內部"},{"start":329,"end":331,"text":"政府不知道"},{"start":331,"end":332,"text":"更不要講人民"},{"start":332,"end":333,"text":"通通都不知道"},{"start":333,"end":335,"text":"而是大家都吃下肚了"},{"start":335,"end":338,"text":"所以我們在這裡要講說"},{"start":338,"end":340,"text":"高風險原料的管理"},{"start":340,"end":343,"text":"製程的管控監測的管制"},{"start":343,"end":345,"text":"這個是你們說"},{"start":345,"end":348,"text":"獨立調查的結果發現了很多原因"},{"start":348,"end":352,"text":"但是我們要講再講一遍"},{"start":352,"end":354,"text":"前面早就出現了風險訊號"},{"start":354,"end":356,"text":"譬如說原料的來源"},{"start":356,"end":358,"text":"傳奇的差異"},{"start":358,"end":359,"text":"油槽的檢驗"},{"start":359,"end":361,"text":"製程的參數"},{"start":361,"end":362,"text":"管制的界線"},{"start":362,"end":364,"text":"下游的檢驗"},{"start":364,"end":366,"text":"拒收退貨的紀錄"},{"start":366,"end":367,"text":"這些訊號"},{"start":367,"end":370,"text":"通通沒有被整合"},{"start":370,"end":373,"text":"沒有進入主管機關的預警系統"},{"start":373,"end":376,"text":"也沒有變成跨縣市的"},{"start":376,"end":377,"text":"跨業者的"},{"start":377,"end":380,"text":"跨供應鏈的風險警示"},{"start":380,"end":382,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":382,"end":384,"text":"我們通通都吃下肚以後"},{"start":384,"end":386,"text":"才發現問題"},{"start":386,"end":388,"text":"然後發現問題的時候"},{"start":388,"end":389,"text":"已經都來不及了"},{"start":389,"end":390,"text":"因為都吃進去了"},{"start":390,"end":393,"text":"一次又一次都是吃完了"},{"start":393,"end":394,"text":"才再說"},{"start":394,"end":396,"text":"啊你可以退貨"},{"start":396,"end":397,"text":"你可以退款"},{"start":397,"end":398,"text":"吃進去了"},{"start":398,"end":400,"text":"我的健康怎麼退款"},{"start":400,"end":401,"text":"我的健康怎麼退貨"},{"start":401,"end":403,"text":"所以我在這裡講清楚"},{"start":403,"end":408,"text":"這個問題不是先說在台糖一間公司"},{"start":408,"end":409,"text":"要怎麼做而已"},{"start":409,"end":412,"text":"也不是說台糖這個案子"},{"start":412,"end":413,"text":"要不要通報"},{"start":413,"end":414,"text":"有沒有通報義務"},{"start":414,"end":417,"text":"我們要講是問題有品"},{"start":417,"end":420,"text":"有沒有實際進入台糖工廠"},{"start":420,"end":423,"text":"重大的訊號就已經出現了"},{"start":423,"end":427,"text":"為什麼主管機關沒有同步掌握"},{"start":427,"end":429,"text":"今天是本篇皮"},{"start":429,"end":431,"text":"明天有可能是重金屬"},{"start":431,"end":432,"text":"農藥殘留"},{"start":432,"end":434,"text":"塑化劑"},{"start":434,"end":435,"text":"黃麴毒素"},{"start":435,"end":437,"text":"或是其他污染物"},{"start":437,"end":441,"text":"只要制度面仍然只看到產品"},{"start":441,"end":443,"text":"有沒有進貨"},{"start":443,"end":445,"text":"所有權有沒有移轉"},{"start":445,"end":447,"text":"啊我沒有買啊"},{"start":447,"end":448,"text":"還在他那裡"},{"start":448,"end":451,"text":"業者有沒有製成自己的產品"},{"start":451,"end":452,"text":"如果只是制度面"},{"start":452,"end":454,"text":"現在的只看到這個"},{"start":454,"end":457,"text":"那麼主管機關就會"},{"start":457,"end":459,"text":"看不到供應鏈前端"},{"start":459,"end":462,"text":"已經出現的風險訊號"},{"start":462,"end":464,"text":"所以我再講一遍就是說"},{"start":464,"end":466,"text":"實驗法管制的精神"},{"start":466,"end":469,"text":"人民想要的制度"},{"start":469,"end":472,"text":"就是在成為產品以前"},{"start":472,"end":474,"text":"供應鏈的前端"},{"start":474,"end":476,"text":"就已經出現了風險的訊號"},{"start":476,"end":480,"text":"我們要怎麼來設計成政府"},{"start":480,"end":483,"text":"一定要就馬上介入和管制"},{"start":483,"end":485,"text":"實驗制度不能靠吹哨者"},{"start":485,"end":487,"text":"當最後一道防線"},{"start":487,"end":489,"text":"那都已經來不及"},{"start":489,"end":491,"text":"真正的預警制度"},{"start":491,"end":494,"text":"應該是重大的異常"},{"start":494,"end":497,"text":"發現了還停留在供應鏈"},{"start":497,"end":498,"text":"內部的時候"},{"start":498,"end":500,"text":"你就掌握資訊"},{"start":500,"end":502,"text":"交叉比對"},{"start":502,"end":504,"text":"採取行政措施"},{"start":504,"end":507,"text":"而不是等到爆發以後"},{"start":507,"end":509,"text":"才來究責"},{"start":509,"end":511,"text":"所以我再講一次"},{"start":511,"end":512,"text":"台糖不只是"},{"start":512,"end":514,"text":"有沒有現行通報的義務的問題"},{"start":514,"end":516,"text":"而是在於現行的制度"},{"start":516,"end":518,"text":"根本沒有確保"},{"start":518,"end":520,"text":"重大風險資訊"},{"start":520,"end":524,"text":"能夠立即及時的進入主管機關"},{"start":524,"end":526,"text":"這個東西很重要"},{"start":526,"end":528,"text":"那食安管理"},{"start":528,"end":530,"text":"更不能只看產品"},{"start":530,"end":533,"text":"這個原料的所有權是誰"},{"start":533,"end":538,"text":"還要看誰要負責掌握風險的資訊"},{"start":538,"end":540,"text":"部長你覺得呢"},{"start":540,"end":543,"text":"所以剛剛委員講到的HACCP"},{"start":543,"end":546,"text":"我們也在這一次修法裡面提出"},{"start":546,"end":549,"text":"要強化那個HACCP的功能"},{"start":549,"end":554,"text":"包含他進場去查這個HACCP的過程"},{"start":554,"end":556,"text":"不是只有看文件"},{"start":556,"end":558,"text":"他還要做確效"},{"start":558,"end":559,"text":"他要去抽菸"},{"start":559,"end":560,"text":"這個我上一次質詢過了"},{"start":560,"end":561,"text":"對"},{"start":561,"end":562,"text":"現在的HACCP"},{"start":562,"end":563,"text":"然後各項的節點"},{"start":563,"end":566,"text":"沒有淪為紙上作業"},{"start":566,"end":568,"text":"造假成為常態"},{"start":568,"end":572,"text":"根本台灣不存在HACCP制度了"},{"start":572,"end":573,"text":"老實說"},{"start":573,"end":575,"text":"就現行的執行"},{"start":575,"end":577,"text":"屠法不足以自行"},{"start":577,"end":580,"text":"就現行有的法律在那裡"},{"start":580,"end":584,"text":"但是執行面所有HACCP業者"},{"start":584,"end":586,"text":"我可以在這裡大膽的假設"},{"start":586,"end":590,"text":"沒有人在執行管制的"},{"start":590,"end":594,"text":"HACCP都造假的"},{"start":596,"end":599,"text":"我現在說屠法不足以自行"},{"start":600,"end":602,"text":"屠法不足以自行"},{"start":602,"end":604,"text":"現在要怎麼辦"},{"start":604,"end":605,"text":"以台糖為例"},{"start":605,"end":608,"text":"我們當然知道他跟中聯"},{"start":608,"end":610,"text":"跟南橋、泰山、福壽"},{"start":610,"end":613,"text":"他們的責任當然是不一樣"},{"start":613,"end":617,"text":"但是他們遇到了、知道了"},{"start":617,"end":621,"text":"這一個風險還是存在在那裡"},{"start":621,"end":624,"text":"所以誰要負責去掌握"},{"start":624,"end":626,"text":"公共食安風險的資訊"},{"start":626,"end":627,"text":"誰要負責"},{"start":627,"end":629,"text":"誰要負責"},{"start":630,"end":633,"text":"今天剪出了本評比14.7"},{"start":633,"end":637,"text":"已經不是單純買賣雙方"},{"start":637,"end":639,"text":"要不要交貨的問題"},{"start":639,"end":642,"text":"而是供食品製造使用的原料"},{"start":642,"end":645,"text":"出現重大的汙染訊號了"},{"start":645,"end":648,"text":"這個訊號沒有進入主管機關"},{"start":648,"end":651,"text":"你怎麼知道他後續有沒有封存"},{"start":651,"end":653,"text":"有沒有精煉"},{"start":653,"end":655,"text":"有沒有混批"},{"start":655,"end":657,"text":"有沒有轉賣掉"},{"start":657,"end":659,"text":"都不知道"},{"start":659,"end":662,"text":"因為都不知道"},{"start":662,"end":664,"text":"所以在這個過程"},{"start":664,"end":668,"text":"變成有一個另一種假設狀況是"},{"start":668,"end":672,"text":"我們第七條第五項通報義務是說"},{"start":672,"end":674,"text":"自己的產品自己管"},{"start":674,"end":677,"text":"可是有一種狀況是"},{"start":677,"end":682,"text":"買方在供應商端驗收錢、取貨錢"},{"start":682,"end":683,"text":"都已經知道了"},{"start":683,"end":685,"text":"但也沒有收貨"},{"start":685,"end":687,"text":"就是台黨這種狀況"},{"start":687,"end":689,"text":"那他已經知道重大異常"},{"start":689,"end":692,"text":"尚未收貨、現行法"},{"start":692,"end":693,"text":"管不到"},{"start":693,"end":695,"text":"這個風險怎麼辦"},{"start":695,"end":697,"text":"我們今天就是要來補這個洞"},{"start":697,"end":698,"text":"保定"},{"start":698,"end":702,"text":"今天就是要來補這個洞"},{"start":702,"end":706,"text":"這一個食安法的最核心"},{"start":706,"end":708,"text":"風險都在業者手上"},{"start":708,"end":711,"text":"主管機關你都不知道"},{"start":712,"end":714,"text":"台黨不是這批有的製造者"},{"start":714,"end":715,"text":"也不是收貨者"},{"start":715,"end":717,"text":"也不是後續的加工者"},{"start":717,"end":724,"text":"可是台黨掌握了中聯311號油槽14.7PBB"},{"start":724,"end":727,"text":"這個重大的污染的資訊"},{"start":727,"end":730,"text":"這個資訊就不能只限縮在是台黨"},{"start":730,"end":734,"text":"跟中聯之間的商業資訊"},{"start":734,"end":737,"text":"這是足以影響整個使用油脂供應鏈的"},{"start":737,"end":740,"text":"公共食安風險的資訊"},{"start":740,"end":742,"text":"所以要請問你部長"},{"start":742,"end":744,"text":"我們要不要討論"},{"start":744,"end":746,"text":"食品業者不管他有沒有買"},{"start":746,"end":748,"text":"所有權是誰的"},{"start":748,"end":750,"text":"只要你掌握了供應鏈中"},{"start":750,"end":752,"text":"重大食安異常的資訊"},{"start":752,"end":754,"text":"即便你沒有買、沒有收貨"},{"start":754,"end":756,"text":"要不要通報"},{"start":756,"end":759,"text":"然後要不要建立起主管機關"},{"start":759,"end":762,"text":"應該掌握什麼樣的責任"},{"start":762,"end":766,"text":"進行干預的這一個系統和制度的建設"},{"start":766,"end":767,"text":"建置"},{"start":767,"end":769,"text":"所以說從兩個部分"},{"start":769,"end":771,"text":"這個通報的擴大"},{"start":771,"end":773,"text":"第一個是"},{"start":773,"end":777,"text":"把這個從現在食安法第七條"},{"start":777,"end":780,"text":"產品的異常才通報"},{"start":780,"end":783,"text":"擴大到原料、換成品"},{"start":783,"end":787,"text":"我們這些高風險的加工鏈"},{"start":787,"end":790,"text":"不管他有沒有收貨"},{"start":790,"end":792,"text":"不管他有沒有買了"},{"start":792,"end":797,"text":"我們這一次討論一共有兩個"},{"start":797,"end":799,"text":"第一個是檢驗機關"},{"start":799,"end":803,"text":"檢驗機關你發現了也要通報"},{"start":803,"end":807,"text":"第二個你的生產供應鏈上"},{"start":807,"end":810,"text":"你發現了不管你有沒有收貨"},{"start":810,"end":812,"text":"也要通報"},{"start":812,"end":815,"text":"第三個是HACCP的認證"},{"start":815,"end":819,"text":"有發現重大異常也要通報"},{"start":819,"end":822,"text":"也就強化了HACCP過程裡面"},{"start":822,"end":823,"text":"是啦,理論上"},{"start":823,"end":824,"text":"但我要再跟你講"},{"start":824,"end":827,"text":"屠法不足以自行"},{"start":827,"end":829,"text":"然後如果你現在說"},{"start":829,"end":830,"text":"對,都要通報的話"},{"start":830,"end":833,"text":"那未來任何食品大廠"},{"start":833,"end":837,"text":"在供應商端驗出重金屬"},{"start":837,"end":839,"text":"黃麴毒素塑化劑本偏皮"},{"start":839,"end":842,"text":"等重大異常事件的鈔標"},{"start":842,"end":845,"text":"只要拒收退貨"},{"start":845,"end":849,"text":"通通都要通報"},{"start":849,"end":851,"text":"都有通報責任"},{"start":851,"end":852,"text":"對,我們會去"},{"start":852,"end":854,"text":"現在法是要這樣子"},{"start":854,"end":856,"text":"明確的再更擴大"},{"start":856,"end":858,"text":"對"},{"start":858,"end":860,"text":"那現行法沒有通報義務"},{"start":860,"end":861,"text":"這一次要補吧"},{"start":861,"end":862,"text":"對,這一次要補"},{"start":862,"end":865,"text":"那我們要講就是說"},{"start":865,"end":867,"text":"重大食安異常"},{"start":867,"end":869,"text":"重大風險"},{"start":869,"end":870,"text":"你要怎麼界定"},{"start":870,"end":872,"text":"你也要想一想喔"},{"start":872,"end":874,"text":"這些我們總的言之"},{"start":874,"end":876,"text":"立法修法的目的是"},{"start":876,"end":878,"text":"這一些異常資訊"},{"start":878,"end":881,"text":"不能夠只是停留在業者手上"},{"start":881,"end":884,"text":"資訊沒有進入主管機關"},{"start":884,"end":886,"text":"政府就不可能及早封存"},{"start":886,"end":891,"text":"追查,比對同來源的流向"},{"start":891,"end":893,"text":"不可能及時通知"},{"start":893,"end":895,"text":"其他下游業者"},{"start":895,"end":898,"text":"就不可能發生預警的作用"},{"start":898,"end":901,"text":"所以有沒有建立風險"},{"start":901,"end":904,"text":"資訊的責任很重要"},{"start":904,"end":906,"text":"而不是只看有沒有買"},{"start":906,"end":908,"text":"然後在這裡呢"},{"start":908,"end":911,"text":"我們要,就部長喔"},{"start":911,"end":913,"text":"你還要再想一下喔"},{"start":913,"end":916,"text":"那通報到你這裡來"},{"start":916,"end":918,"text":"通報到你這裡來"},{"start":918,"end":920,"text":"你們要接下來怎麼進行"},{"start":920,"end":923,"text":"因為他可以把不合格的"},{"start":923,"end":925,"text":"拿回去可能賣給工業製造"},{"start":925,"end":927,"text":"可是你怎麼知道"},{"start":927,"end":929,"text":"他真的是賣給工業製造"},{"start":929,"end":931,"text":"然後他會說我會精煉"},{"start":931,"end":933,"text":"精煉成產品是沒有的"},{"start":933,"end":935,"text":"那你怎麼樣確保"},{"start":935,"end":938,"text":"確認確定安全"},{"start":938,"end":940,"text":"他是真的符合標準的"},{"start":940,"end":942,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":942,"end":944,"text":"土法不足以執行"},{"start":944,"end":946,"text":"接下來是執行面"},{"start":946,"end":948,"text":"法的執行面很重要"},{"start":948,"end":950,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":950,"end":953,"text":"地方政府有足夠的人跟錢嗎"},{"start":953,"end":955,"text":"法的執行面"},{"start":955,"end":958,"text":"接下來就談地方政府的編制"},{"start":958,"end":961,"text":"需不需要給人跟錢"},{"start":961,"end":964,"text":"專責的,專職的"},{"start":964,"end":967,"text":"負責的業務承辦員"},{"start":967,"end":969,"text":"需不需要"},{"start":969,"end":972,"text":"這可能也是必要的配套"},{"start":972,"end":974,"text":"你利用現有的人力"},{"start":974,"end":977,"text":"大家都是兼職兼任"},{"start":977,"end":979,"text":"然後出事了"},{"start":979,"end":982,"text":"才講說你去幾次"},{"start":982,"end":984,"text":"八年沒驗一次"},{"start":984,"end":986,"text":"這都來不及了"},{"start":986,"end":989,"text":"我們想要的是專職專責的"},{"start":989,"end":991,"text":"這一個業務承辦員"},{"start":991,"end":995,"text":"他對這個HACCP制度的管理"},{"start":995,"end":996,"text":"是不是落實"},{"start":996,"end":998,"text":"有沒有可能這方面"},{"start":998,"end":1001,"text":"人力的強化這個是要的"},{"start":1001,"end":1003,"text":"我們過去也一直在"},{"start":1003,"end":1004,"text":"要專職專責"},{"start":1004,"end":1006,"text":"稀查的人力"},{"start":1006,"end":1007,"text":"要專責"},{"start":1007,"end":1008,"text":"不是稀查"},{"start":1008,"end":1010,"text":"要專職專責"},{"start":1010,"end":1012,"text":"負責最高風險的"},{"start":1012,"end":1014,"text":"他就是這幾個項目而已"},{"start":1014,"end":1019,"text":"你知道在制度上要彌補"},{"start":1019,"end":1022,"text":"如果主管機關當時"},{"start":1022,"end":1024,"text":"知道了這個檢驗結果"},{"start":1024,"end":1027,"text":"這個風險是有通報進來的"},{"start":1027,"end":1029,"text":"你在透過製程的調整"},{"start":1029,"end":1032,"text":"而不是業者自己說了算"},{"start":1032,"end":1036,"text":"結果現行的制度是沒有這一個制度"},{"start":1036,"end":1040,"text":"台糖據說是保護了台糖自己的商譽"},{"start":1040,"end":1043,"text":"並沒有保護到公共的食安"},{"start":1043,"end":1046,"text":"他只保護到自己的商譽"},{"start":1046,"end":1050,"text":"可是這據說不能作為風險的終點"},{"start":1050,"end":1052,"text":"對主管機關來講"},{"start":1052,"end":1054,"text":"新的制度未來的制度"},{"start":1054,"end":1056,"text":"我們應當要理解"},{"start":1056,"end":1061,"text":"而且要把據說當作是啟動封存"},{"start":1061,"end":1065,"text":"據說一開始據說就通報"},{"start":1065,"end":1066,"text":"就要啟動封存"},{"start":1066,"end":1070,"text":"據說就要追查加密檢驗"},{"start":1070,"end":1074,"text":"或是限制流向的起點"},{"start":1074,"end":1078,"text":"我們是希望制度是應該要這樣才對"},{"start":1078,"end":1080,"text":"如果沒有這樣的話"},{"start":1080,"end":1082,"text":"據說異常資訊"},{"start":1082,"end":1085,"text":"他就會仍然會不斷地"},{"start":1085,"end":1087,"text":"歷史都會重演"},{"start":1087,"end":1091,"text":"那據說要通報"},{"start":1091,"end":1093,"text":"然後要啟動政府的責任"},{"start":1093,"end":1095,"text":"很重要為什麼"},{"start":1095,"end":1098,"text":"這個東西為什麼要專職專責的業務承辦員"},{"start":1098,"end":1100,"text":"因為未來也有可能"},{"start":1100,"end":1102,"text":"如果未來一家如品廠"},{"start":1102,"end":1107,"text":"在供應商端驗出原料奶重大污染"},{"start":1107,"end":1109,"text":"他據說"},{"start":1109,"end":1111,"text":"他只是據說"},{"start":1111,"end":1113,"text":"他產品安全了"},{"start":1113,"end":1116,"text":"可是被據說那一批原料會流到哪裡去不知道"},{"start":1116,"end":1119,"text":"如果一家應用的食品業者"},{"start":1119,"end":1124,"text":"在供應商端驗出大宗的原料重金屬超標"},{"start":1124,"end":1126,"text":"只是據說"},{"start":1126,"end":1128,"text":"據獲退貨"},{"start":1128,"end":1131,"text":"這樣子只是他沒有"},{"start":1131,"end":1133,"text":"但那一個原料還會再賣給別人"},{"start":1133,"end":1135,"text":"如果使用油紙"},{"start":1135,"end":1137,"text":"這一次類似這樣子只是據說"},{"start":1137,"end":1139,"text":"出管機關不知道"},{"start":1139,"end":1142,"text":"這個原料還停留在中聯"},{"start":1142,"end":1144,"text":"等待下一個買方"},{"start":1144,"end":1147,"text":"下一個買方沒有像台南這麼高標準"},{"start":1147,"end":1150,"text":"做成食品大家吃下肚"},{"start":1150,"end":1152,"text":"現行就是這個樣子"},{"start":1152,"end":1155,"text":"所以這絕對不是一個假設的題目"},{"start":1155,"end":1157,"text":"中聯就是這樣子"},{"start":1157,"end":1159,"text":"所以未來的修法"},{"start":1159,"end":1160,"text":"我們就是講說"},{"start":1160,"end":1163,"text":"據收退貨通報"},{"start":1163,"end":1166,"text":"就是主管機關要去介入"},{"start":1166,"end":1170,"text":"確認封存流向後續處理"},{"start":1170,"end":1172,"text":"在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":1172,"end":1174,"text":"我們政府的責任就來了"},{"start":1174,"end":1176,"text":"所以我們這一次我們要再講一遍"},{"start":1176,"end":1181,"text":"整個最上游的少數壟斷的"},{"start":1181,"end":1184,"text":"廠商的原料供應的"},{"start":1184,"end":1186,"text":"這一些食品業者"},{"start":1186,"end":1189,"text":"HACCP制度也沒有在做"},{"start":1189,"end":1191,"text":"也沒有在遵守"},{"start":1191,"end":1194,"text":"食安法的管理也有制度面的漏洞"},{"start":1195,"end":1198,"text":"但是我們在這個裡面"},{"start":1198,"end":1202,"text":"我們一定要開始"},{"start":1202,"end":1205,"text":"要把自主管理制度收回"},{"start":1205,"end":1207,"text":"我再強調一次"},{"start":1207,"end":1210,"text":"以前都是叫業者自主管理"},{"start":1210,"end":1212,"text":"包括HACCP制度"},{"start":1212,"end":1214,"text":"也是叫業者自主管理"},{"start":1214,"end":1216,"text":"我們從現在開始"},{"start":1216,"end":1220,"text":"要把業者自主管理收回來"},{"start":1220,"end":1221,"text":"收回來"},{"start":1221,"end":1225,"text":"改成高度的政府監管"},{"start":1225,"end":1227,"text":"部長你同意嗎"},{"start":1227,"end":1230,"text":"高度的政府監管"},{"start":1230,"end":1232,"text":"更高程度的管理"},{"start":1232,"end":1234,"text":"這個是我們絕對會支持"},{"start":1234,"end":1236,"text":"所以在這一次的修法裡面"},{"start":1236,"end":1238,"text":"也要求了很多強制性的做法"},{"start":1238,"end":1240,"text":"更高程度的管理"},{"start":1240,"end":1242,"text":"到底是要政府管理"},{"start":1242,"end":1244,"text":"還是業者自己管理"},{"start":1244,"end":1247,"text":"包含了外部的專業人員的管理介入"},{"start":1247,"end":1248,"text":"我現在告訴你"},{"start":1248,"end":1251,"text":"沒有所謂的有良心的業者"},{"start":1251,"end":1254,"text":"我現在告訴你沒有這一回事"},{"start":1254,"end":1256,"text":"就這個制度面"},{"start":1256,"end":1258,"text":"你去好好地想一下"},{"start":1258,"end":1260,"text":"我認為沒有所謂的"},{"start":1260,"end":1262,"text":"有道德有良知的業者"},{"start":1262,"end":1264,"text":"只有法律怎麼規定"},{"start":1264,"end":1266,"text":"法律是最低的標準"},{"start":1266,"end":1268,"text":"他都可以不遵守了"},{"start":1268,"end":1270,"text":"如果你還法律是授權給他們"},{"start":1270,"end":1271,"text":"業者自主管理"},{"start":1271,"end":1273,"text":"那一定是破功"},{"start":1273,"end":1276,"text":"而且食安系統性的風暴"},{"start":1276,"end":1277,"text":"會不斷地上演"},{"start":1277,"end":1279,"text":"這是我提醒你的"},{"start":1279,"end":1282,"text":"好 那就這一次的中聯的"},{"start":1282,"end":1283,"text":"獨有的事件"},{"start":1283,"end":1285,"text":"311號油潮"},{"start":1285,"end":1286,"text":"我再提醒你一個"},{"start":1286,"end":1290,"text":"重大的異常不能只追單一交易"},{"start":1290,"end":1295,"text":"應該要啟動同潮或是同傳奇"},{"start":1295,"end":1298,"text":"同來源的橫向警示"},{"start":1298,"end":1301,"text":"未來只要高風險食品原料"},{"start":1301,"end":1304,"text":"在供應商端驗出重大的鈔標"},{"start":1304,"end":1306,"text":"你就要開始要求業者"},{"start":1306,"end":1309,"text":"立即同潮、同傳奇、同來源"},{"start":1309,"end":1312,"text":"同製程、同批次的完整資料"},{"start":1312,"end":1314,"text":"而並通知可能受影響的"},{"start":1314,"end":1318,"text":"買方檢驗或暫停使用"},{"start":1318,"end":1320,"text":"如果沒有這道橫向的指示"},{"start":1320,"end":1323,"text":"政府會永遠都在等下一個"},{"start":1323,"end":1325,"text":"下游驗出鈔標"},{"start":1325,"end":1328,"text":"再回溯去找上游"},{"start":1328,"end":1330,"text":"不能這麼被動"},{"start":1330,"end":1331,"text":"他那個油潮"},{"start":1331,"end":1332,"text":"他的那個油潮"},{"start":1332,"end":1335,"text":"跟那個油潮同一批貨來的"},{"start":1335,"end":1337,"text":"同一個傳奇的"},{"start":1337,"end":1340,"text":"同一批煉油的"},{"start":1340,"end":1344,"text":"其他的東西一起查、一起驗"},{"start":1344,"end":1347,"text":"你只驗那一潮也不行"},{"start":1347,"end":1349,"text":"只驗那一批也不行"},{"start":1349,"end":1352,"text":"當然你們這次擴大驗了三個月"},{"start":1352,"end":1353,"text":"幾批"},{"start":1353,"end":1355,"text":"一共是30批"},{"start":1355,"end":1356,"text":"30批"},{"start":1356,"end":1357,"text":"不過那一個是"},{"start":1357,"end":1358,"text":"他沒有成批的"},{"start":1358,"end":1360,"text":"他是另外那個是在潮"},{"start":1360,"end":1361,"text":"另外是30批"},{"start":1361,"end":1362,"text":"我現在跟你說的"},{"start":1362,"end":1364,"text":"不是同那幾批而已"},{"start":1364,"end":1366,"text":"其實同傳奇的"},{"start":1366,"end":1368,"text":"同一批來源的"},{"start":1368,"end":1371,"text":"其實都是有很大的風險"},{"start":1371,"end":1375,"text":"然後食品雲不能只追產品流向"},{"start":1375,"end":1379,"text":"如果按照現在食品雲的管理的方法"},{"start":1379,"end":1383,"text":"你們現在說修法要強化數位治理"},{"start":1383,"end":1386,"text":"那你數位治理要治理什麼"},{"start":1386,"end":1387,"text":"你們講的"},{"start":1387,"end":1389,"text":"要強化數位治理要治理什麼"},{"start":1389,"end":1391,"text":"當然就是強化他這個"},{"start":1391,"end":1392,"text":"我們剛剛前面的通報"},{"start":1392,"end":1394,"text":"包含這個檢驗的通報"},{"start":1394,"end":1395,"text":"我們會把它建立起來"},{"start":1395,"end":1397,"text":"過去的檢驗是沒有直接通報"},{"start":1397,"end":1398,"text":"對"},{"start":1398,"end":1403,"text":"你們的過去只記錄進貨、出貨、流向"},{"start":1403,"end":1405,"text":"只看得到已經進入供應鏈的資料"},{"start":1405,"end":1408,"text":"然後沒有看到被退貨的、不合格的"},{"start":1408,"end":1412,"text":"風潮採樣的、拒收檢驗異常的"},{"start":1412,"end":1414,"text":"通通都沒有"},{"start":1414,"end":1417,"text":"那看不到他最早的風險訊號"},{"start":1417,"end":1418,"text":"在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":1418,"end":1420,"text":"可是你看到這個風險訊號"},{"start":1420,"end":1421,"text":"你知道喔"},{"start":1421,"end":1425,"text":"他都沒有出現在台糖的生產資料裡面"},{"start":1425,"end":1429,"text":"也不會出現在台糖的產品流向"},{"start":1429,"end":1432,"text":"那也沒有進入台糖的進貨資料"},{"start":1432,"end":1434,"text":"通通都沒有啊"},{"start":1434,"end":1435,"text":"都沒有喔"},{"start":1435,"end":1437,"text":"可是這個油沒有消失啊"},{"start":1437,"end":1438,"text":"這一批油沒有消失吧"},{"start":1438,"end":1441,"text":"他仍然在311油槽裡面"},{"start":1441,"end":1443,"text":"就是說你整個食品雲的制度"},{"start":1443,"end":1445,"text":"只看得到產品的流向"},{"start":1445,"end":1448,"text":"但是看不到重大異常的檢驗結果"},{"start":1448,"end":1453,"text":"如果說業者在供應商端採樣驗收前檢驗"},{"start":1453,"end":1456,"text":"委託代工檢驗、自主檢驗"},{"start":1456,"end":1458,"text":"第三方實驗室檢驗"},{"start":1458,"end":1460,"text":"發現重大的超標不合格"},{"start":1460,"end":1464,"text":"拒收、退貨、風潮暫停存放的訊息"},{"start":1464,"end":1467,"text":"這個就是很重要的內幕的、評估的資料"},{"start":1467,"end":1471,"text":"但是對我們主管機關而言"},{"start":1471,"end":1474,"text":"這個就是一個風險的警訊"},{"start":1474,"end":1476,"text":"我們都應該要掌握"},{"start":1476,"end":1479,"text":"我不是說所有不合格都要登錄"},{"start":1479,"end":1485,"text":"但是應該強制登錄的是高風險食品業別"},{"start":1485,"end":1489,"text":"重大污染物超過法定標準或達一定倍數"},{"start":1489,"end":1492,"text":"可能影響多家下游的異常結果"},{"start":1492,"end":1496,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們要記錄"},{"start":1496,"end":1501,"text":"你們的方向跟我講的方向是一致的嗎"},{"start":1501,"end":1506,"text":"對,就是我們過去在登錄的部分是進跟出"},{"start":1506,"end":1510,"text":"進跟出,而且只登錄合格"},{"start":1510,"end":1513,"text":"只登錄合格的進跟出"},{"start":1513,"end":1515,"text":"對,它就是進入它的加工鏈的"},{"start":1515,"end":1517,"text":"它是合格的"},{"start":1517,"end":1519,"text":"但我希望你們開始要建置"},{"start":1519,"end":1523,"text":"登錄不合格的叫它要登錄出來"},{"start":1523,"end":1525,"text":"我們不能夠只要求業者"},{"start":1525,"end":1528,"text":"把合格的資料給政府看"},{"start":1528,"end":1531,"text":"只登錄合格的資料"},{"start":1531,"end":1535,"text":"真正的風險往往是在於不合格的資料"},{"start":1535,"end":1539,"text":"因為合格資料告訴政府什麼可以出貨"},{"start":1539,"end":1542,"text":"可是不合格的資料告訴你"},{"start":1542,"end":1545,"text":"哪裡可能正要出事了"},{"start":1545,"end":1547,"text":"所以你的食品雲登錄"},{"start":1547,"end":1551,"text":"只要求業者登錄進貨出貨產品流向"},{"start":1551,"end":1556,"text":"沒有納入不合格的重大的異常的檢驗結果"},{"start":1556,"end":1558,"text":"政府永遠慢半拍"},{"start":1558,"end":1561,"text":"人民永遠都要把有毒的吃進去以後"},{"start":1561,"end":1565,"text":"才在那裡氣急敗壞,就責於政府"},{"start":1565,"end":1570,"text":"然後永遠要等下游驗出超標產品"},{"start":1570,"end":1576,"text":"已經進入所有的各個機關、團散、家庭"},{"start":1576,"end":1579,"text":"政府才要回頭追流向查原因"},{"start":1579,"end":1581,"text":"這不是數位治理"},{"start":1581,"end":1585,"text":"而是已經發生的交易記錄電子化而已"},{"start":1585,"end":1589,"text":"所以真正有預警價值的是"},{"start":1589,"end":1593,"text":"要登錄重大異常檢驗資訊"},{"start":1593,"end":1597,"text":"不能讓這個異常檢驗資訊留在業者手上而已"},{"start":1597,"end":1599,"text":"叫他登錄"},{"start":1599,"end":1601,"text":"但如果他不登錄"},{"start":1601,"end":1604,"text":"我們第三方檢驗出來"},{"start":1604,"end":1607,"text":"或是你的買主給你退貨了"},{"start":1607,"end":1609,"text":"也會通報"},{"start":1609,"end":1611,"text":"一樣要通報"},{"start":1611,"end":1614,"text":"你會被通報不如你自己主動登錄"},{"start":1614,"end":1616,"text":"當你登錄了異常的時候"},{"start":1616,"end":1619,"text":"你主管機關要通知地方政府"},{"start":1619,"end":1622,"text":"你對那一批次那些貨"},{"start":1622,"end":1624,"text":"你要高度的監管"},{"start":1624,"end":1627,"text":"因為它超標很多"},{"start":1627,"end":1632,"text":"最後它怎麼處理安不安全、流向哪裡"},{"start":1632,"end":1635,"text":"政府要給人民交代"},{"start":1635,"end":1638,"text":"我最後再講最後一句就是說"},{"start":1638,"end":1640,"text":"人民的期待是"},{"start":1640,"end":1642,"text":"再加上的"},{"start":1642,"end":1645,"text":"政府都應該是把關過"},{"start":1645,"end":1647,"text":"都是安全的"},{"start":1647,"end":1650,"text":"而現在並不是"},{"start":1650,"end":1654,"text":"我們希望未來都應該要是這樣子"},{"start":1654,"end":1656,"text":"這樣子部長"},{"start":1656,"end":1658,"text":"叫他們不合格異常要登錄"},{"start":1658,"end":1662,"text":"如果你HACCP制度要通報了"},{"start":1662,"end":1667,"text":"如果你的第三方檢驗的實驗室要通報了"},{"start":1667,"end":1670,"text":"如果像台糖買到也要通報了"},{"start":1670,"end":1674,"text":"那業者登錄對他們來講"},{"start":1674,"end":1677,"text":"是同樣一件事"},{"start":1677,"end":1681,"text":"所以對業者來講沒有壓力了"},{"start":1681,"end":1685,"text":"這是越透明、越公開"},{"start":1685,"end":1687,"text":"對消費者有保障"},{"start":1687,"end":1692,"text":"但對業者自己來講也是有保障的"},{"start":1692,"end":1695,"text":"不要被人家通報了再來被處分"},{"start":1695,"end":1697,"text":"對不對"},{"start":1697,"end":1700,"text":"部長你有同意嗎"},{"start":1700,"end":1702,"text":"因為這次我們是要求連這個"},{"start":1702,"end":1705,"text":"自設實驗室的檢驗也要通報"},{"start":1705,"end":1706,"text":"就等於是要登錄"},{"start":1706,"end":1707,"text":"概念是一樣"},{"start":1707,"end":1708,"text":"是沒有錯"},{"start":1708,"end":1712,"text":"所以我們希望所有制度都不是參考用的"},{"start":1712,"end":1715,"text":"你們目前為止HACCP制度"},{"start":1715,"end":1716,"text":"不是只有使用油紙"},{"start":1716,"end":1718,"text":"HACCP的"},{"start":1718,"end":1721,"text":"符合這個工廠製造HACCP的廠商有幾間"},{"start":1721,"end":1723,"text":"全國"},{"start":1724,"end":1727,"text":"其實HACCP食品廠都是大廠"},{"start":1727,"end":1729,"text":"超級大廠"},{"start":1729,"end":1731,"text":"食藥署署長"},{"start":1731,"end":1736,"text":"所有HACCP制度的所有食品加工廠"},{"start":1736,"end":1741,"text":"全部都應該好好的盤整一次"},{"start":1741,"end":1743,"text":"造假的百分之"},{"start":1743,"end":1745,"text":"我不好意思說百分之百"},{"start":1745,"end":1747,"text":"很多"},{"start":1747,"end":1749,"text":"很多"},{"start":1749,"end":1750,"text":"虛擬委員"},{"start":1750,"end":1752,"text":"書面作業"},{"start":1752,"end":1755,"text":"不是真正的HACCP"},{"start":1755,"end":1758,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":1758,"end":1759,"text":"好謝謝委員"},{"start":1759,"end":1763,"text":"好抱歉我再問最後一句"},{"start":1763,"end":1766,"text":"一個因為台灣苦茶油的事情"},{"start":1766,"end":1769,"text":"我現在問署長苦茶油"},{"start":1769,"end":1773,"text":"沒有品名標示標準對不對"},{"start":1773,"end":1775,"text":"沒有制定品名標示標準"},{"start":1775,"end":1776,"text":"意思是說"},{"start":1776,"end":1780,"text":"苦茶油根本台灣沒有界定什麼叫做苦茶油"},{"start":1780,"end":1782,"text":"沒有嘛"},{"start":1782,"end":1785,"text":"這個部分我們知道這個要做一些修正"},{"start":1785,"end":1787,"text":"我知道你們沒有啦"},{"start":1787,"end":1788,"text":"油品的部分"},{"start":1788,"end":1790,"text":"這些是本品比這是2PVP"},{"start":1790,"end":1791,"text":"沒有不是這樣子啦"},{"start":1791,"end":1793,"text":"我現在重點第一個苦茶油"},{"start":1793,"end":1799,"text":"台灣沒有制定什麼叫做苦茶油的標準"},{"start":1799,"end":1801,"text":"沒有品名標示標準"},{"start":1801,"end":1805,"text":"所以混油也可以叫做苦茶油"},{"start":1805,"end":1806,"text":"第二個"},{"start":1806,"end":1810,"text":"因為沒有規定什麼才能夠叫做苦茶油"},{"start":1810,"end":1811,"text":"所以會有混油"},{"start":1811,"end":1817,"text":"但是台灣目前沒有混油的檢驗方法對不對"},{"start":1817,"end":1820,"text":"苦茶油的混油檢驗方法"},{"start":1820,"end":1822,"text":"包委員就這個部分"},{"start":1822,"end":1824,"text":"的確我們在積極的研議"},{"start":1824,"end":1828,"text":"因為裡面有混甲混沙拉油大豆油等等"},{"start":1828,"end":1830,"text":"其實它的成分的部分"},{"start":1830,"end":1831,"text":"以目前的檢驗"},{"start":1831,"end":1833,"text":"我們有信心應該是可以開發出來的"},{"start":1833,"end":1836,"text":"好你們現在目前沒有檢驗方法"},{"start":1836,"end":1838,"text":"所以我講這個是什麼意思呢"},{"start":1838,"end":1840,"text":"因為新聞報導"},{"start":1840,"end":1843,"text":"中國的種子來了檢驗了"},{"start":1843,"end":1845,"text":"沒有本品比超標"},{"start":1845,"end":1847,"text":"他是這樣很多報導是這樣講的"},{"start":1847,"end":1850,"text":"他不是驗那個苦茶籽"},{"start":1850,"end":1853,"text":"他是說做出來的苦茶油沒有超標"},{"start":1853,"end":1856,"text":"對但是有機商店的永豐嶼的都超標啊"},{"start":1856,"end":1859,"text":"產品一樣是最末端的產品都超標啊"},{"start":1859,"end":1861,"text":"我現在不是要講這個啦"},{"start":1861,"end":1862,"text":"我是要跟你講"},{"start":1862,"end":1866,"text":"其實啊我自己高度的懷疑是混油啦"},{"start":1866,"end":1868,"text":"混油啦"},{"start":1868,"end":1870,"text":"真正超標的來源沒有可能"},{"start":1870,"end":1872,"text":"其實是加很多的大豆沙拉油"},{"start":1872,"end":1877,"text":"因為加了大豆沙拉油的苦茶油沒有違法"},{"start":1877,"end":1880,"text":"因為法律沒有訂定什麼叫做苦茶油"},{"start":1880,"end":1883,"text":"那現在目前也沒有檢驗"},{"start":1883,"end":1886,"text":"有沒有混油的檢驗方法沒有"},{"start":1886,"end":1889,"text":"好我希望你們要去改善"},{"start":1889,"end":1892,"text":"你們要嚴格管理啦"},{"start":1892,"end":1896,"text":"第三個我們很多關心台灣農業的"},{"start":1896,"end":1900,"text":"也有很多委員在關心的"},{"start":1900,"end":1904,"text":"我們希望原料來源國要標示"},{"start":1904,"end":1906,"text":"這個你們會不會支持"},{"start":1906,"end":1910,"text":"根本現在的油品的標示有要求"},{"start":1910,"end":1912,"text":"如果你是有混油的"},{"start":1912,"end":1913,"text":"你就不能稱為"},{"start":1913,"end":1914,"text":"我不再講混油了"},{"start":1914,"end":1917,"text":"你要用調和油的方式標示"},{"start":1917,"end":1920,"text":"你的苦茶油沒有訂出品名標示標準"},{"start":1920,"end":1924,"text":"你哪裡有混油的調和油這個名稱"},{"start":1924,"end":1926,"text":"這個是通則"},{"start":1926,"end":1928,"text":"好來但我不是要講這個"},{"start":1928,"end":1931,"text":"我是講這個是一樣是沒有混油的話"},{"start":1931,"end":1935,"text":"沒有混油但是你的種子來自於中國"},{"start":1935,"end":1939,"text":"你要標示原料種子來自於中國"},{"start":1939,"end":1941,"text":"我是要要求這個"},{"start":1941,"end":1943,"text":"有沒有意見"},{"start":1943,"end":1945,"text":"對於原料原產地的部分"},{"start":1945,"end":1946,"text":"的確這個部分我們"},{"start":1946,"end":1950,"text":"原料原產地特別是這些農產品的這一些"},{"start":1950,"end":1955,"text":"原料原產地要標示來源國"},{"start":1955,"end":1957,"text":"這個是社會高度關注"},{"start":1957,"end":1960,"text":"也是這一次苦茶油事件裡面"},{"start":1960,"end":1962,"text":"大家相當關注的"},{"start":1962,"end":1969,"text":"但是我們這個要修改要立法要修法之外"},{"start":1969,"end":1972,"text":"我在講苦茶油的相關的"},{"start":1972,"end":1974,"text":"包括其他的油品都一樣"},{"start":1974,"end":1976,"text":"品名標示標準"},{"start":1976,"end":1979,"text":"然後規定出來以後就要有檢驗的方法"},{"start":1979,"end":1981,"text":"沒有檢驗方法"},{"start":1981,"end":1983,"text":"你沒有辦法證明他混油"},{"start":1983,"end":1985,"text":"你說不可以混油"},{"start":1985,"end":1987,"text":"現行的通則就規定不能混"},{"start":1987,"end":1989,"text":"混的話要標示調和油"},{"start":1989,"end":1995,"text":"但是你沒有苦茶油混油的檢驗方法"},{"start":1995,"end":1999,"text":"你怎麼去確認他的混油是真的混油"},{"start":1999,"end":2004,"text":"他在那裡硬拗你怎麼確認"},{"start":2004,"end":2006,"text":"你連檢驗方法都沒有公告"},{"start":2006,"end":2008,"text":"現在也沒辦法檢驗"},{"start":2008,"end":2010,"text":"不是嗎"},{"start":2010,"end":2012,"text":"跟委員說明當然這個檢驗方法"},{"start":2012,"end":2016,"text":"現在食藥署在積極的開發去驗他"},{"start":2016,"end":2020,"text":"關於他的脂肪酸的比例不同的脂肪酸"},{"start":2020,"end":2022,"text":"不過我們現在在查的時候"},{"start":2022,"end":2026,"text":"是根據他的原料的採購證明"},{"start":2026,"end":2030,"text":"你們這樣證明他是中國原料"},{"start":2030,"end":2032,"text":"還是在地"},{"start":2032,"end":2034,"text":"但是本篇比的"},{"start":2034,"end":2037,"text":"人家中國原料製成的苦茶油"},{"start":2037,"end":2041,"text":"就是有好幾批驗出來沒有超標"},{"start":2041,"end":2043,"text":"我不是替中國總指講話"},{"start":2043,"end":2046,"text":"我是要告訴你真正有可能風險的來源"},{"start":2046,"end":2048,"text":"是來自於混油"},{"start":2048,"end":2050,"text":"風險的來源"},{"start":2050,"end":2054,"text":"在中聯你們公布那有問題的批次流向的時候"},{"start":2054,"end":2058,"text":"就很多自由工廠買了很多大豆沙拉油"},{"start":2058,"end":2060,"text":"這個是事實"},{"start":2060,"end":2062,"text":"包括苦茶油工廠"},{"start":2062,"end":2065,"text":"也有人買大豆沙拉油"},{"start":2065,"end":2069,"text":"所以混油你們一直都沒有朝混油的方向"},{"start":2069,"end":2071,"text":"那沒有朝混油的方向"},{"start":2071,"end":2072,"text":"我也可以理解"},{"start":2072,"end":2074,"text":"因為你們也沒有檢驗的方法"},{"start":2074,"end":2077,"text":"所以對你們來講是一個非常困難的"},{"start":2077,"end":2080,"text":"那過去沒有做出規範"},{"start":2081,"end":2084,"text":"未來我們希望你們儘速馬上"},{"start":2084,"end":2088,"text":"把該補起來的豆馬上補起來"},{"start":2088,"end":2092,"text":"把食品安全還給我們人民"},{"start":2092,"end":2094,"text":"是這樣子"},{"start":2094,"end":2097,"text":"好這個我們趕快來開發這個檢驗"},{"start":2101,"end":2104,"text":"好謝謝我們林子芬委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}