{"error":false,"id":["170858"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170858,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170858","日期":"2026-08-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-08-05T15:49:32+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-05T16:05:14+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:42","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d053bb9b075f6aea74a00f3f9de91c7ecd75ebd3fcd1029c0655ae04025e74f6aa0c9bef82072cda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"15:49:32 - 16:05:14","會議時間":"2026-08-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院食品安全辦公室、教育部、國防部、經濟部、台灣糖業股份有限公司及行政院消費者保護處就「從致癌油事件發展迄今，中央一味『蓋牌、吃案、當門神』有關行政究責之重做完整調查報告(含台糖失職、食安警訊斷鏈責任、團體訴訟求償進度)及未來如何確保安全無虞的國軍團膳、學生營養午餐」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午2時30分起，若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、審查行政院函請審議「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、繼續審查委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n......（完整內容，詳見議事日程）\n二十、審查委員許宇甄等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員郭國文等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查國民黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第七條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員李彥秀等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員羅智強等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十七、審查委員盧縣一等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十八、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十九、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十、審查委員王育敏等25人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十一、審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十二、審查委員林月琴等24人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十三、審查委員林淑芬等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十五、審查委員李坤城等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十六、審查委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三十七、審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【逐條討論，不詢答】\n【第二十至二十二案，如經復議則不予審查；第一案及第二十三至三十七案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":7.624718750000001,"end":10.51034375,"speaker_score":0.722},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"伍麗華Saidhai 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應該通報地方主管機關對不對"},{"start":54,"end":65,"text":"對 好 那因為在這個發現之後 那除了通報 更重要的是應該要立即主動停止製造 加工販賣及辦理回收嘛"},{"start":65,"end":71,"text":"對 那但是呢 這個食品業者根據食安法的第三條的定義"},{"start":71,"end":83,"text":"所以這裡面的食品業 我們看一下就包括了從事食品或食品添加物 製造 加工 調配 包裝 運送 儲存 販賣 運輸 輸出等等"},{"start":83,"end":95,"text":"很多的這個不同分工的這個業者 那這樣子的話 有很多的業者 其實嚴格說起來他們並不具備有這個發現危害之虞的這個能力"},{"start":95,"end":107,"text":"好 這能力上看起來是不同的 那到底就是說什麼樣的食品業者在這個食安法裡面呢 是有責任通報的呢 部長"},{"start":107,"end":119,"text":"就是這個食品業者的那個範圍很大 像剛剛提到的 甚至到下端的食品販售業都會被納入是食品業者"},{"start":119,"end":131,"text":"那麼因此我們在這個要求的通報上當然有不同的義務 那麼比如說他有發現是不應該有的雜質 他這個是目視可發現的 他也可以有通報的義務"},{"start":131,"end":142,"text":"那有些是需要靠檢驗 才能夠驗得出他有沒有這個健康危害之虞 所以他就 大家的這個每個業者的能力是不一樣"},{"start":142,"end":159,"text":"是 所以本席認為就這個通報的義務 應該就是說根據就是說以業者的這個能力及這個責任要相匹配 那課與這個各級業者通報的義務"},{"start":159,"end":181,"text":"應該就是說 因以這個業者 他是否具備有相對的能力責任來做一個判斷的基準 那凡是生產自由品牌的產品呢 或者是這個從事生產加工調配 以及這個在製造的業者呢 都應該對這個產品安全及這個社會大眾要負起責任"},{"start":181,"end":200,"text":"這些業者呢 他具有發現產品危害的能力 那也有這個檢測及確保產品安全衛生的這個責任 那所以呢 本席在這裡是主張 那這一類的業者 我們都應該把他納入法定通報義務人的範圍嘛"},{"start":200,"end":220,"text":"那這個 我想這個大家都是有共識的 如果說部長也認同的話 那麼在後續修法的部分 就應該要好好的來釐清說通報的這個責任義務人 那現行的規定呢 其實存有很大的這個模糊空間"},{"start":220,"end":239,"text":"這也是這一次的這個有品事件產生爭議的地方 那我們回到問題點喔 目前對於這個加工跟調配的食品業者 例如台糖 是不是都需要從這個上游的這個原味料來進行檢測呢"},{"start":239,"end":262,"text":"呃 我們會有不同的要求 因為有些原料我們並沒有訂這個安全衛生標準出來 也就是說也沒有特別的檢驗方法啦 那有一些呢 我們是不得添加 就是這些是完全是不合法的 那一種的話那就需要有這個製程上的把關的要求"},{"start":262,"end":282,"text":"好 這樣目前聽起來是就沒有很統一啦 喔 沒有很統一 對 那我 我 不同類別是不一樣 好 我換一個方式來說啦 來問喔 那我可不可以我不檢測 然後因為我沒有發現 所以就沒有通報責任了"},{"start":282,"end":310,"text":"例如這一次的這個台糖的事件 如果他不檢測 他就沒有發現 然後就不會上媒體 然後他也沒有這個後續的這些 因為他不測他也沒有違法嘛 是這樣子吧 那反而就是說 他今天他自己他檢測了 然後他發現 然後他自己封存 他停止製造 但是他沒有通報 他反而有事了"},{"start":310,"end":326,"text":"那如果以這個台糖做為案例的話 看起來好像是變相在鼓勵未來類似的像有廠商都不要去檢測 就不會遇到問題 這個就是我們目前法規上最大的一個漏洞嘛 好 部長 台同意吧"},{"start":326,"end":342,"text":"對 好 就是說檢測應該也是分成兩種啦 一種是我們是強制要求的這種檢測 啊有一些是他自主 自主為了要更好的品質 或者是安全的管控 他自己訂的檢測"},{"start":342,"end":369,"text":"對 那所以其實台糖在這次的事件當中 他就錯在自己有檢測嘛 還惹來後面這些麻煩嘛 那所以另外的一個問題喔 就是說生產的這個廠房喔 在A縣市 那總公司在B縣市 那到底應該是要向哪一個地方主管機關來通報 廠房跟總公司"},{"start":369,"end":390,"text":"因為我們有規定要登錄的 他就是根據他這個廠登錄的地方的那個縣市 轄管縣市 廠登錄的地方 就未必是生產的那個廠房 就是只要那個廠 那個製造廠 生產的廠房 譬如說他就是在高雄小港嘛 所以他就是登錄在高雄"},{"start":390,"end":398,"text":"好 那我們這個 就是地方主管機關接獲通報之後 那標準的處理程序是什麼"},{"start":398,"end":401,"text":"他就要介入調查"},{"start":401,"end":414,"text":"他就是如果他通報了 那個地方主管 譬如說假設是台糖他通報 通報當然是給他的這個縣市主管機關 就是高雄"},{"start":414,"end":421,"text":"可是他會發現說 這個貨又不在台糖 那自然他就會變成是台中要去處理"},{"start":421,"end":430,"text":"所以市澳署有建立一個同意的SOP 同意的SOP 但是我們會遇到一個問題"},{"start":430,"end":446,"text":"就譬如說像這個虎茶油 虎茶油是在這個新北燕道 他的後市場抽燕道 可是燕道之後他發現說 雖然公司 這個東西的公司 這個產品的公司是登記在新北"},{"start":446,"end":456,"text":"可是他的製造廠 他是在嘉義 那就會通報給嘉義縣衛生局去做這個調查"},{"start":456,"end":466,"text":"好 那因為每一個地方的這個政府的人力跟資源都不一樣 所以可能在執行起來的時候"},{"start":466,"end":478,"text":"他可能有些地方他困難度比較高 那會有人手不足等等 那市澳署你們有沒有什麼因應的對策 這一題我上次大概有稍微提到"},{"start":478,"end":495,"text":"當然我們現在盡可能的去協助大家 那麼這個把它盡量這個自動化或者是簡化 不過呢 這個人力的編制還是在地方去編制出來的"},{"start":495,"end":508,"text":"所以這個也希望這個各地方政府的首長也能夠依據他在地的這個食品廠 這食品廠 因為每個縣市的加速也都不一樣"},{"start":508,"end":514,"text":"按照他實際需要轄管的這個業別跟風險程度去編組足夠的人力"},{"start":514,"end":524,"text":"那如果就是萬一有遇到一些特殊狀況 地方政府無法因應的時候 中央是否會介入人力的資源上的支援"},{"start":524,"end":534,"text":"對 我們像這一次我們的中區區管 我們食藥署的中區區管也都全力的去投入這個事件的處理"},{"start":534,"end":546,"text":"好 那再最後一點我想要請教江署長 就是你們現在的這個硬體設備跟以前早期 我們在發現那個說話劑的時代 應該有很大的進步"},{"start":546,"end":561,"text":"但是呢 人才才是最重要的一個其中一個因素 那現在你們的這個檢測專業人員 是否就是有很充分嗎 還是很充足 還是"},{"start":561,"end":570,"text":"報告委員 這一次我們扁平坪因為希望能夠一週內能夠達成檢驗 能夠確立下來讓國人能夠釐清"},{"start":570,"end":580,"text":"也讓所有的預防性下架後來能夠順利的能夠再清的上架 我們一個禮拜裡面驗了幾百個檢體"},{"start":580,"end":584,"text":"講明白一點就是用了洪荒之力 同仁們其實是"},{"start":584,"end":589,"text":"所以你這樣就是說檢測專業人員是充足嗎"},{"start":589,"end":593,"text":"是非常非常刺激 拿出你的洪荒之力就有夠了 是嗎"},{"start":593,"end":596,"text":"不足的 不足的 真的是不足的"},{"start":596,"end":601,"text":"好 因為我的問題還蠻簡單 你講完以後我就有點聽不懂"},{"start":601,"end":610,"text":"好 現在這個高考分發 可以引進具有這個專業能力的各位人員嗎"},{"start":610,"end":616,"text":"現在他們是在高考的各種不同的專業技術人員的"},{"start":616,"end":619,"text":"所以是可以引進嗎 那所以"},{"start":619,"end":621,"text":"沒有特別一類 這個檢驗沒有特別"},{"start":621,"end":625,"text":"對 不是特別的一類 都是衛生技術"},{"start":625,"end":632,"text":"他是歸在衛生技術之內 但是這個背景上我們還是有不同的背景會考上"},{"start":632,"end":637,"text":"所以進來的時候當然他們申請分發 進來也要再執訓練才會"},{"start":637,"end":646,"text":"所以目前就是說 我們的這個具有專業能力的專職的公務員跟約聘僱員人員比例大概多少"},{"start":646,"end":649,"text":"有掌握嗎"},{"start":649,"end":654,"text":"大概 現在利用約聘僱員的比例其實是逐年的增加"},{"start":654,"end":659,"text":"所以公務人員的比例 因為業務量一直增加 公務員員額是限制住的"},{"start":659,"end":666,"text":"所以 目前大概 像大概是大概 之前是大概1比1 現在大概4比6左右的公務人員是變少"},{"start":666,"end":669,"text":"甚至是3比7的一個程度"},{"start":669,"end":672,"text":"OK 好 大概七成嘛現在"},{"start":672,"end":679,"text":"好 那這個地方政府的技術問題 有時候是很需要中央的支援"},{"start":679,"end":686,"text":"那食藥署就是說 你們目前是怎麼跟地方政府合作 然後可以提供的支援是什麼"},{"start":686,"end":696,"text":"跟委員說明 當然我們一方面會有這些訓練 讓這個地方的稽查人員具備這個稽查的能力"},{"start":696,"end":701,"text":"那第二個呢 對一些特殊的檢驗 我們也由食藥署來支援"},{"start":701,"end":708,"text":"譬如說 在前年113年 我們進行油品的查核 要驗這個本篇筆的時候"},{"start":708,"end":713,"text":"就是我們食藥署來支援 因為不見得這個地方政府能夠驗"},{"start":713,"end":716,"text":"所以我們就會去支援這個驗的能力"},{"start":716,"end":723,"text":"好 謝謝 那最後我們討論一下 就是 因為目前我們按照這個食安法來看"},{"start":723,"end":728,"text":"好像是 應該是 我們目前就食品都有"},{"start":728,"end":737,"text":"不是食品 就是我目前 很多產品是先流通販售 後再檢測 然後有問題再通報"},{"start":737,"end":745,"text":"看起來是這樣 那就是我們 意思就是我們要自己先 先市面上人體試驗"},{"start":745,"end":753,"text":"那這樣子的話 一旦確認就是有危害的話 然後再要去就是說回收下架"},{"start":753,"end":763,"text":"那可能都已經來不及了 那講到 我想就是說 講到這邊 我其實"},{"start":763,"end":770,"text":"我不禁要想到 就是說要大力誇讚一下我們的這個醬油業者"},{"start":770,"end":777,"text":"因為多年來 我們這個醬油業者是受到這個監察院某助理的"},{"start":777,"end":781,"text":"給你們食藥署很大的壓力嘛 像立法委員一樣"},{"start":781,"end":787,"text":"每年都要求這個醬油業者 要進行專案的檢查"},{"start":787,"end":791,"text":"只有醬油有這種特殊待遇 其他都沒有"},{"start":791,"end":798,"text":"所以 同樣的 都有個油制啦 這兩個命運大不同 標準也大不同"},{"start":798,"end":803,"text":"所以一個是醬油是嚴苛到這個國內業者快生存不下去"},{"start":803,"end":808,"text":"那另外一種油卻是鬆散無比 所以你們是嚴重的雙標"},{"start":808,"end":815,"text":"可能也是被迫啦 但是我想這個過度以及不足都不好啦"},{"start":815,"end":823,"text":"所以 我想事後 不論就是說 你們要如何的這個重罰"},{"start":823,"end":829,"text":"都比不上這個影響人民的健康 那這個後續修法就是說"},{"start":829,"end":834,"text":"你們有沒有要處理這個問題 然後讓這個產品確定就是說"},{"start":834,"end":840,"text":"危害無虞才能上市 而不是現在說 我們發現有危害了"},{"start":840,"end":845,"text":"或者有危害之虞了 然後大家再來說 我們停止 不得販售"},{"start":845,"end":851,"text":"因為發現需要時間確認危害之虞 也需要時間"},{"start":851,"end":858,"text":"那這個時間全部加起來 都是這個法律漏洞影響人民的健康啊"},{"start":859,"end":865,"text":"對 也跟委員說明就是說 一直靠外部的稽查 這個資源也是有限"},{"start":865,"end":871,"text":"所以也必須要照風險去做管理 所以重要的是在一級跟二級評管"},{"start":871,"end":875,"text":"所以一級評管的部分 如何去強化我們這次修法會修進去"},{"start":875,"end":882,"text":"他的檢驗的能力要自己提升 而且這個檢驗的單位要經過主管機關認證"},{"start":882,"end":888,"text":"然後未來他的檢驗結果也要跟我們去上傳 這樣才能夠去強化"},{"start":888,"end":894,"text":"這個內部的自主檢驗連結上外部的這個勾機"},{"start":894,"end":901,"text":"那二級評管的部分也要去強化 這些都是在避免說 等到變成產品之後才發現問題"},{"start":901,"end":906,"text":"所以一級二級評管重點都是在前面 前端的預防"},{"start":906,"end":913,"text":"所以我想今天一個很重要的重點就是說 也是很諷刺的事情"},{"start":913,"end":919,"text":"就是因為台糖自己先驗了 發現問題 然後結果反而"},{"start":919,"end":926,"text":"到底我們要怎麼去定義台糖這樣的一個舉動 是對的還是不對的"},{"start":926,"end":931,"text":"是很lucky的還是很倒楣的 這個就是我想從這個案例"},{"start":931,"end":938,"text":"我們在這個接下來的修法 把這些灰色地帶都把它弄清楚這樣子"},{"start":938,"end":939,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":939,"end":940,"text":"謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:49:32.551724+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:49:47.448276+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請今天很辛苦的衛福部部長跟食藥署署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T15:49:48.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:49:50.571429+08:00","text":"請部長跟署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:49:50.571429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T15:49:54+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:49:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:49:54.538462+08:00","text":"兩位好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:49:55.346154+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:50:25.100000+08:00","text":"今天討論的食安法第七條規範通報責任，我首先想請教部長，裡面的第五項提及食品業者發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞時，應即主動停止製造、加工、販賣及辦理回收，並通報直轄市、縣市主管機關，是不是已經很清楚地規範食品業者在發現產品有問題的時候應該通報地方主管機關？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:50:25.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:50:26+08:00","text":"對不對？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:50:28.046512+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:50:37+08:00","text":"發現之後，除了通報，更重要的是應該立即主動停止製造、加工、販售及辦理回收嘛！對。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:50:37.521739+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:51:09.933333+08:00","text":"但是根據食安法第三條的定義，食品業就包括從事食品或食品添加物製造、加工、調配、包裝、運送、儲存、販賣、運輸、輸出等很多不同分工的業者，這樣的話，很多業者嚴格說起來並不具備發現有危害之虞的能力、從能力上看起來是不同的。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:51:10.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:51:18.733333+08:00","text":"那麼到底什麼樣的食品業者在食安法下是有責任通報的呢？部長。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:51:20.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:51:53.765957+08:00","text":"食品業者範圍很大，就像剛剛提到的，甚至下端的食品販售業都會被納入食品業者，因此在我們要求的通報上當然有不同義務，譬如說發現不應該有的雜質、屬於目視可發現者，也有通報義務，有些則需要靠檢驗才驗得出有沒有危害健康之虞，每個業者的能力不一樣。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:51:54.303571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:52:32.760870+08:00","text":"所以本席認為，通報義務應該與業者的能力以及責任相匹配，課以各級業者通報的義務，應以業者是否具備相對能力責任作為判斷基準，凡是生產自有品牌產品者或從事生產、加工、調配以及再製造的業者都應該對產品安全及社會大眾負起責任。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:52:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:53:17.013889+08:00","text":"這些業者具有發現產品危害的能力，也有檢測及確保產品安全衛生的責任，所以本席主張這類業者都應該納入法定通報義務人的範圍，我想這點大家都是有共識的，如果部長也認同的話，後續修法就應該好好釐清通報的責任義務人，現行規定其實存有很大的模糊空間，這也是這次油品事件產生爭議的地方。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:53:17.541667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:53:30.472222+08:00","text":"我們回到問題點，目前對於加工與調配的食品業者─例如台糖，是不是都需要從上游原物料進行檢測？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:53:31.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:53:42.250000+08:00","text":"我們會有不同要求，有些原料我們沒有訂安全衛生標準出來，也沒有特別檢驗方法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:53:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:53:53.750000+08:00","text":"有一些是不得添加，也就是這些完全不合法，那就需要製程上把關的要求。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:53:54.789474+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:53:57.947368+08:00","text":"目前聽起來就是沒有統一啦！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:53:58.473684+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:54:02.684211+08:00","text":"沒有統一，不同類別不一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩：好，我換個方式來問","start":"2026-08-05T15:54:06.894737+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:54:13.736842+08:00","text":"可不可以不檢測，也因為沒有發現，就沒有通報責任了？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩：好，我換個方式來問","start":"2026-08-05T15:54:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:54:29.926606+08:00","text":"例如這次台糖事件，如果它不檢測，就沒有發現、不會上媒體，也沒有後續這些事件，因為它不測也不違法，是這樣子吧？對。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:54:32.752294+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:54:41.743119+08:00","text":"它自己檢測、發現，然後自己封存、停止製造，但沒有通報，反而有事了。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:54:42.657534+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:54:56.027397+08:00","text":"以台糖作為案例的話，看起來好像在變相鼓勵未來類似上游廠商都不要檢測，就不會遇到問題，這就是目前法規上最大的漏洞。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:54:56.684932+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:54:57.780822+08:00","text":"部長還同意吧？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:54:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:55:13.750000+08:00","text":"對，就是檢測也應該分成兩種，一種是強制要求的檢測，有一些是自主，為了有更好的品質或安全管控，自己定的檢測，這是不一樣的。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:55:14.562500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:55:23.843750+08:00","text":"所以台糖在這次事件當中其實就錯在自己有檢測，才惹來後面這些麻煩嘛！","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:55:28.062500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:55:39.031250+08:00","text":"生產廠房在A縣市，總公司在B縣市，那到底應該向哪個地方主管機關通報？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:55:39.312500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:55:40.718750+08:00","text":"廠房或總公司？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:55:42.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:55:44.500000+08:00","text":"規定要登錄者，就根據該廠所登錄的地方向轄管縣市通報。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:55:45.433333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:55:46.600000+08:00","text":"廠登錄的地方？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:55:50.566667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:55:52.666667+08:00","text":"未必是生產的廠房？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:55:52.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:55:55.466667+08:00","text":"就是該製造廠。喔！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:55:55.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:55:56.633333+08:00","text":"生產的廠房為主？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:55:57.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:56:01.766667+08:00","text":"比如這次在高雄小港，那就是登錄在高雄。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:56:04.064516+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:56:09.741935+08:00","text":"地方主管機關接獲通報之後，標準處理程序是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:56:10.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:56:12.571429+08:00","text":"就要介入調查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:56:13.847826+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:56:25.717391+08:00","text":"如果業者通報了，地方主管機關……假設是台糖通報，當然是通報給其縣市主管機關，也就是高雄。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:56:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:56:32.766667+08:00","text":"可是它可能發現貨又不在台糖，自然就變成臺中要處理。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:56:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:56:37.090909+08:00","text":"所以食藥署有建立統一的SOP？對。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:56:39+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:56:41.727273+08:00","text":"但是我們會遇到一個問題……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:56:42.507937+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:57:08+08:00","text":"比如說苦茶油事件在新北市透過後市場抽驗到，但驗到之後發現這個產品的公司雖然登記在新北市，製造廠卻在嘉義，就會通報給嘉義縣衛生局調查。好。","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:57:08.555556+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:57:22.846154+08:00","text":"但因為每一個地方政府的人力與資源都不一樣，所以執行起來，有些地方困難度可能比較高，或有人手不足等問題。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:57:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:57:26.769231+08:00","text":"食藥署有沒有什麼因應對策？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:57:27+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:57:29.769231+08:00","text":"這一題我上次也稍微提到。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:57:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:57:54.959184+08:00","text":"當然我們現在儘可能協助大家，包括儘量自動化或簡化，不過人力編制還是地方編制出來的，所以希望各地方政府首長也能依據在地食品廠處理。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:57:56.816327+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:58:05.777778+08:00","text":"每個縣市的家數也不一樣，所以要按照實際需要轄管的業別與風險程度編制足夠人力。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:58:07.162791+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:58:15.767442+08:00","text":"萬一遇到一些特殊狀況、地方政府無法因應的時候，中央是否會介入，提供人力資源上的支援？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:58:17.025641+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:58:26+08:00","text":"會，這次食藥署中區區管也全力投入事件處理。好。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:58:26.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:58:29.111111+08:00","text":"最後一點，我想請教姜署長。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:58:29.777778+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:58:50.551020+08:00","text":"你們現在的硬體設備比起早期發現塑化劑的時代應該有很大的進步，但是人才才是其中最重要的因素之一，現在你們的檢測專業人員充分嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:58:51.163265+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:58:52.693878+08:00","text":"是很充足還是很缺？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T15:58:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:11.743590+08:00","text":"報告委員，對於這次苯駢芘事件，我們因為希望能夠在1周內達成、檢驗能夠確立下來，讓國人釐清，也讓所有預防性下架產品後來能夠再順利上架，在一個禮拜以內驗了幾百個檢體。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:15.578947+08:00","text":"講明白一點，就是用了洪荒之力，同仁們其實加了很多班。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:16.555556+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:20.722222+08:00","text":"你這樣的意思是說檢測專業人員充足嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:21+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:21.380952+08:00","text":"是非常吃力、困難的。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:22.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:24.809524+08:00","text":"只要拿出洪荒之力就夠了，是嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:26.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:27.750000+08:00","text":"真的是不足的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:28.652174+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:32.782609+08:00","text":"我的問題還滿簡單的，但你講完之後，我反而有點聽不懂。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:34.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:41.666667+08:00","text":"透過高考分發可以引進具有專業能力的公務人員嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:47.428571+08:00","text":"現在他們是以高考各種不同專業技術人員招考。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:49.636364+08:00","text":"所以可以引進嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:51.714286+08:00","text":"這種檢驗沒有特別成為一類。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:52.428571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:52.857143+08:00","text":"沒有特別……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:55.571429+08:00","text":"對，不是特別的一類，都是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:55.857143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T15:59:56.714286+08:00","text":"衛生技術。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T15:59:57.466667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:00:08.400000+08:00","text":"對，歸在衛生技術職類，但是有不同背景者會考上，所以除了由他們申請分發，進來以後也要在職訓練，不容易培養。","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:00:09.473684+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:00:20.250000+08:00","text":"目前具有專業能力的專職公務員與約聘雇人員比例大概是多少，有掌握嗎？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T16:00:21.476190+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:00:30.821429+08:00","text":"現在運用約聘雇人員的比例其實逐年增加，因為業務量一直增加，公務人員員額卻是限制住的。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-05T16:00:31.212121+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:00:40.666667+08:00","text":"以我的印象，之前大概是1比1，現在大概是4比6左右，公務人員變少，甚至到3比7的程度。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:00:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:00:43.100000+08:00","text":"OK，現在大概7成嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:00:45.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:00:50.720000+08:00","text":"地方政府的技術問題有時候很需要中央支援啦！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:00:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:00:55.242424+08:00","text":"那麼食藥署目前怎麼跟地方政府合作？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:00:55.878788+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:00:57.787879+08:00","text":"可以提供的支援是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T16:00:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:01:07.729730+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，一方面，我們當然會有這些訓練，讓地方稽查人員具備稽查能力。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T16:01:08.217391+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:01:27.800000+08:00","text":"第二，對於一些特殊檢驗，也由食藥署支援，比如說在前年113年進行油品查核、驗苯駢芘的時候，就是由食藥署支援，因為地方政府不見得能夠驗，我們就會支援檢驗的人力。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:01:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:01:28.482759+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:01:31.862069+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:02:08.600000+08:00","text":"目前按照食安法，很多產品是先流通販售、後檢測，有問題再通報，看起來是這樣，意思就是我們要自己先在市面上人體試驗，一旦確認有危害再回收、下架，可能都已經來不及了。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:02:12.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:02:42.750000+08:00","text":"講到這邊，其實我不禁要大力誇讚一下醬油業者，因為多年來監察院某助理給你們食藥署很大壓力，像立法委員一樣，於是每年要求醬油業者進行專案檢查，只有醬油業者有這種特殊待遇，其他都沒有。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:02:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:03:01.826087+08:00","text":"所以，同樣有個「油」字，但兩者命運大不同，標準也大不同，對醬油產業是嚴苛到國內業者快生存不下去，對另外一種油卻是鬆散無比，所以你們是嚴重雙標，可能也是被迫啦！","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:03:02.739130+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:03:36.782609+08:00","text":"我想過度與不足都不好，事後不論你們要如何重罰，都比不上影響人民健康，在後續修法上，你們是否要處理這個問題，讓這項產品確定無危害之虞才能上市，而不是像現在發現有危害或有危害之虞才要求停止、不得販售？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:03:39.526316+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:03:51+08:00","text":"然後確認有危害之虞也需要時間，這些時間全部加起來，都顯示法律漏洞影響了人民的健康啊！對。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T16:03:51.230769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:04:02.777778+08:00","text":"我也向委員說明，一直靠外部稽查，資源也有限，所以必須按照風險加以管理，重要的在於一級與二級品管。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T16:04:03.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:04:28.470588+08:00","text":"一級品管如何強化，我們這次修法會修進去，檢驗能力要業者自己提升，而且檢驗單位要經過主管機關認證，未來檢驗結果也要上傳給我們，這樣才能強化內部自主檢驗連結到外部的勾稽，二級品管也要強化。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T16:04:28.676471+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:04:37.750000+08:00","text":"這些都是為了避免等到變成產品之後才發現問題，所以一級、二級品管的重點都在於前端預防。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:04:39.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:05:00.600000+08:00","text":"今天很重要的重點之一、也是很諷刺的事情，就是台糖自己先驗、發現問題，我們到底要怎麼定義台糖這樣的舉動是對的還是不對的、是很lucky的還是很倒楣的？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-08-05T16:05:02.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:05:10.666667+08:00","text":"因為這個案例，我們面對接下來的修法，對於這些灰色地帶都要弄清楚。謝謝。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-08-05T16:05:11+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-05T16:05:11.750000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員提醒。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T16:05:12.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T16:05:13.964286+08:00","text":"謝謝陳瑩委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T16:05:14.264286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T16:05:19.978571+08:00","text":"接著請張雅琳委員、張雅琳委員，張雅琳委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T16:05:20.278571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T16:05:25.135714+08:00","text":"盧縣一委員、盧縣一委員，盧縣一委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T16:05:25.435714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T16:05:30.292857+08:00","text":"鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-05T16:05:30.592857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-05T16:05:50.021429+08:00","text":"委員徐欣瑩、盧縣一、張雅琳、吳宗憲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2周內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}