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那跟委員做一個比較完整的報告"},{"start":97.92,"end":99.68,"text":"我們這次因為我們"},{"start":100.32,"end":103.36,"text":"大豆自己生產的出遊"},{"start":103.36,"end":105.84,"text":"我們自己壓到大豆生產的出遊不足"},{"start":106.16,"end":109.92,"text":"所以我們必須要對外來採購出遊補足"},{"start":110.4,"end":115.6,"text":"那這次我們的招標案是3000噸的出遊"},{"start":116.16,"end":118.4,"text":"那這個出遊對台湯公司來講"},{"start":118.4,"end":120.8,"text":"他是一個中間的一個原料"},{"start":122.08,"end":123.68,"text":"中聯他是分批"},{"start":124,"end":126.4,"text":"應該是我們的決標的對象"},{"start":126.4,"end":128.56,"text":"得標的廠商是福茂"},{"start":129.04,"end":134.4,"text":"那福茂公司他這次交的這個出遊他是分3批"},{"start":134.4,"end":139.52,"text":"第一批他交的這個出遊就是我們這次311"},{"start":139.76000000000002,"end":141.76000000000002,"text":"在中聯有潮的出遊"},{"start":141.76000000000002,"end":148.16000000000003,"text":"那我們5月11號他提報311這個"},{"start":148.16000000000003,"end":151.84,"text":"這一潮的出遊是要交給台湯公司的"},{"start":151.84,"end":157.28,"text":"所以我們的人員到現場去遷封然後送驗"},{"start":157.28,"end":160.72,"text":"就整個有潮是封存起來送驗"},{"start":160.72,"end":164.64000000000001,"text":"要等到驗收合格了之後台湯公司才會收"},{"start":164.64000000000001,"end":166.96,"text":"那這次是我們送驗的時候"},{"start":167.04000000000002,"end":169.84,"text":"他沒有符合台湯的招標規範"},{"start":169.84,"end":172.72,"text":"我們的招標規範有很多項目"},{"start":172.72,"end":176.72,"text":"那包括本篇批的部分他是沒有符合我們的招標規範"},{"start":176.72,"end":178.72,"text":"所以這一批我們是拒收的"},{"start":178.72,"end":181.20000000000002,"text":"是直接就留在中聯"},{"start":181.20000000000002,"end":183.68,"text":"那到目前為止他還是遷封在現場"},{"start":183.68,"end":187.68,"text":"所以你們就是5月11到中聯的現場"},{"start":187.68,"end":189.68,"text":"去台邊抽驗"},{"start":189.68,"end":192.4,"text":"那抽驗時間過多久"},{"start":192.4,"end":195.12,"text":"我們馬上送驗"},{"start":195.20000000000002,"end":201.20000000000002,"text":"5月15號報告就出來"},{"start":201.20000000000002,"end":202.8,"text":"那因為碰到禮拜六禮拜天"},{"start":202.8,"end":204.32,"text":"5月18號禮拜一"},{"start":204.32,"end":207.76,"text":"我們就通知服貿公司"},{"start":207.76,"end":211.52,"text":"說他的這一批是沒有符合台湯公司的規範"},{"start":211.52,"end":213.04000000000002,"text":"我們拒收"},{"start":213.04000000000002,"end":217.92000000000002,"text":"那現在看起來台中市政府"},{"start":217.92000000000002,"end":222,"text":"就是認為說你除了拒收外"},{"start":222.08,"end":223.76,"text":"你認為他送驗不合格"},{"start":223.76,"end":225.76,"text":"他的本篇批有超標"},{"start":225.76,"end":227.36,"text":"所以你也必須要通報"},{"start":227.36,"end":230.24,"text":"那在法令上你們必須要這樣做嗎"},{"start":230.24,"end":231.68,"text":"公務員報告"},{"start":231.68,"end":235.28,"text":"他這個沒有所謂超標不超標的問題"},{"start":235.28,"end":238.24,"text":"因為現行的食安法裡頭"},{"start":238.24,"end":245.04,"text":"並沒有對於出遊有做任何安全的標準規範"},{"start":245.04,"end":248.88,"text":"所以他就沒有所謂的超標不超標的問題"},{"start":249.04,"end":252.96,"text":"他是沒有符合台湯公司所訂的超標規範"},{"start":252.96,"end":254.96,"text":"所以我們拒收了"},{"start":254.96,"end":256.96,"text":"所以你們就決定拒收"},{"start":256.96,"end":260,"text":"那請食道署可以說明"},{"start":260,"end":262.4,"text":"那台湯這樣的一個決策過程"},{"start":262.4,"end":265.12,"text":"有違反你們的食品衛生的管理法嗎"},{"start":265.12,"end":266.56,"text":"先講結論"},{"start":266.56,"end":267.68,"text":"並沒有"},{"start":267.68,"end":268.96,"text":"為什麼沒有"},{"start":268.96,"end":272,"text":"就是說大豆其實炸油之後"},{"start":272,"end":274.48,"text":"炸出來的油是最初期"},{"start":274.48,"end":278.08,"text":"初期的油裡面其實是又酸又臭"},{"start":278.08,"end":280.08,"text":"顏色又不好非常混濁"},{"start":280.08,"end":282.47999999999996,"text":"根本不是在食用這個階段"},{"start":282.47999999999996,"end":285.12,"text":"那如何到最後我們可以到"},{"start":285.12,"end":288.08,"text":"我們要吃的油其實要經過這個精煉"},{"start":288.08,"end":291.68,"text":"精煉過程其實可以下降的88%"},{"start":291.68,"end":293.28,"text":"所以這個下降的過程中"},{"start":293.28,"end":294.88,"text":"如果精煉之後"},{"start":294.88,"end":298.64,"text":"我們要管制是最後出來的油是符合2PBB"},{"start":298.64,"end":300.88,"text":"它其實是我們用我們的科學"},{"start":300.88,"end":303.2,"text":"能夠達到盡量低的程度"},{"start":303.2,"end":304.64,"text":"我們訂的這個標準"},{"start":304.64,"end":307.76,"text":"所以在過去台湯裡面的相關的油品"},{"start":307.76,"end":310.64,"text":"以及後續我們檢驗油品都是合格的"},{"start":310.64,"end":312.71999999999997,"text":"所以對於這樣子的一個"},{"start":312.71999999999997,"end":315.44,"text":"初級出來的油的層次"},{"start":315.44,"end":317.12,"text":"我們是不是要去管理"},{"start":317.12,"end":321.28,"text":"我們其實是應該在所謂的HACCP裡面"},{"start":321.28,"end":325.36,"text":"重要的節點決定你後續你要怎麼煉"},{"start":325.36,"end":327.36,"text":"因為煉一次煉不成"},{"start":327.36,"end":329.68,"text":"走一圈不成走兩圈"},{"start":329.68,"end":331.92,"text":"也可以達到2PPB的"},{"start":331.92,"end":334.4,"text":"只是它的成本就會另外一個層次"},{"start":334.4,"end":336.88,"text":"所以對於一個衛生主管機關"},{"start":336.96,"end":339.6,"text":"我們要把讓人民的食品的安全"},{"start":339.6,"end":340.88,"text":"油品安全的"},{"start":340.88,"end":342.48,"text":"貶貧批的2PPB的"},{"start":342.48,"end":343.6,"text":"這個目標"},{"start":343.6,"end":345.04,"text":"我們一定是抓在最後"},{"start":345.04,"end":347.84,"text":"你出來要給民眾消費的時候"},{"start":347.84,"end":349.28,"text":"所以你們是抓在最後"},{"start":349.28,"end":354.24,"text":"抓到這個它必須要到2PPB的話"},{"start":354.24,"end":357.2,"text":"就是它可能要投入適當的成本"},{"start":357.2,"end":359.36,"text":"讓它精煉的過程把它下降"},{"start":359.36,"end":361.44,"text":"是的這個是可以做到的"},{"start":361.44,"end":363.84,"text":"所以因此它對於我們食品中"},{"s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理論上沒有到第七"},{"start":375.44,"end":377.28,"text":"署長那是不是可以這樣說"},{"start":377.28,"end":379.59999999999997,"text":"如果台糖公司這一批出油"},{"start":379.59999999999997,"end":381.59999999999997,"text":"他一樣把它買進來了"},{"start":381.59999999999997,"end":386.4,"text":"但是它經過投入成本精煉再精煉"},{"start":386.4,"end":388.64,"text":"還是可以把它下降到最後"},{"start":388.64,"end":390.64,"text":"變成產品的時候"},{"start":390.64,"end":392.64,"text":"下降到了2PPB"},{"start":392.71999999999997,"end":395.44,"text":"它就會變成合格的產品"},{"start":395.44,"end":398.24,"text":"是這樣子做法是可以達到的"},{"start":398.24,"end":401.2,"text":"只是說中間台糖如果它進了這批出油"},{"start":401.2,"end":404.96,"text":"它的原料的標準是超標"},{"start":404.96,"end":407.12,"text":"是比較高不是叫超標"},{"start":407.12,"end":408.4,"text":"是相對高"},{"start":408.4,"end":410.08,"text":"那台糖就要投入成本"},{"start":410.08,"end":412.88,"text":"去讓它下降到產品符合標準"},{"start":412.88,"end":414.88,"text":"我想它是一個很重要的參考點"},{"start":414.88,"end":418.24,"text":"所以對於整個所謂食品科學裡面"},{"start":418.24,"end":420.24,"text":"是有可以達到讓它2的"},{"start":420.24,"end":422.24,"text":"這個是製程區可以用的地方"},{"start":422.24,"end":424.24,"text":"這個論述可以了解起來"},{"start":424.24,"end":428.24,"text":"基本上台糖這中間沒有違反食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":428.24,"end":432.24,"text":"因為這個出油它可以選擇要買進來"},{"start":432.24,"end":434.24,"text":"也可以選擇不要買進來"},{"start":434.24,"end":438.24,"text":"但是台糖至於自我的合約的自我的規範"},{"start":438.24,"end":440.24,"text":"所以他認為說"},{"start":440.24,"end":444.24,"text":"這個出油的原料就不符合他們期待的"},{"start":444.24,"end":445.24,"text":"所以他們就不要買"},{"start":445.24,"end":446.24,"text":"不想買就拒收"},{"start":446.24,"end":448.24,"text":"就是這個狀況"},{"start":448.24,"end":450.24,"text":"好 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當然是說"},{"start":701.76,"end":703.76,"text":"但是企業事實上跑在前面喔"},{"start":703.76,"end":705.76,"text":"部長我知道"},{"start":705.76,"end":707.76,"text":"你應該也知道很多企業事實上對於"},{"start":707.76,"end":709.76,"text":"新能源"},{"start":709.76,"end":711.76,"text":"然後他們現在認為甲烷自氫"},{"start":711.76,"end":713.76,"text":"已經是一個未來很可行的方向"},{"start":713.76,"end":715.76,"text":"那看起來"},{"start":715.76,"end":717.76,"text":"日本在這一塊跑得很快"},{"start":717.76,"end":719.76,"text":"那我們台灣事實上也可以來"},{"start":719.76,"end":721.76,"text":"做這樣的一個努力"},{"start":721.76,"end":723.76,"text":"但是企業在努力這一塊的時候"},{"start":723.76,"end":725.76,"text":"他們會發現有一個問題"},{"start":725.76,"end":727.76,"text":"就是我們現在"},{"start":727.76,"end":729.76,"text":"甲烷自氫的過程中"},{"start":729.76,"end":731.76,"text":"因為甲烷的產生"},{"start":731.76,"end":733.76,"text":"事實上也可以同時去處理"},{"start":733.76,"end":735.76,"text":"很多農業廢棄物"},{"start":735.76,"end":737.76,"text":"包括玉米啦"},{"start":737.76,"end":739.76,"text":"或者是一些"},{"start":739.76,"end":741.76,"text":"一些積分啦 怎樣"},{"start":741.76,"end":743.76,"text":"這樣的一個農業廢棄物"},{"start":743.76,"end":745.76,"text":"他們事實上就會產生甲烷"},{"start":745.76,"end":747.76,"text":"那如果你透過這個農廢"},{"start":747.76,"end":749.76,"text":"然後產生甲烷之後"},{"start":749.76,"end":751.76,"text":"然後你再把它"},{"start":751.76,"end":753.76,"text":"來用剛剛的技術"},{"start":753.76,"end":755.76,"text":"然後來自氫的話"},{"start":755.76,"end":757.76,"text":"這樣子的一個概念"},{"start":757.76,"end":759.76,"text":"它應該就要符合R1100"},{"start":759.76,"end":761.76,"text":"R1100能源的一個需求"},{"start":761.76,"end":763.76,"text":"那這個在國外"},{"start":763.76,"end":765.76,"text":"事實上是同意的喔"},{"start":765.76,"end":767.76,"text":"用農廢然後來"},{"start":767.76,"end":769.76,"text":"製造甲烷然後甲烷再轉換成氫"},{"start":769.76,"end":771.76,"text":"這樣子的一個化學式變化"},{"start":771.76,"end":773.76,"text":"基本上是符合R1100的"},{"start":773.76,"end":775.76,"text":"是 報告委員現在"},{"start":775.76,"end":777.76,"text":"如果用農廢"},{"start":777.76,"end":779.76,"text":"來可以轉換成發電的部分"},{"start":779.76,"end":781.76,"text":"現在我們已經折成"},{"start":781.76,"end":783.76,"text":"台灣公司大概有幾個示範案"},{"start":783.76,"end":785.76,"text":"現在要開始運行"},{"start":785.76,"end":787.76,"text":"希望明年可以開始"},{"start":787.76,"end":789.76,"text":"明年可以開始"},{"start":789.76,"end":791.76,"text":"但是卡在現在我們的"},{"start":791.76,"end":793.76,"text":"再生能源發展條例"},{"start":793.76,"end":795.76,"text":"我們再生能源是現在"},{"start":795.76,"end":797.76,"text":"生殖能的定義"},{"start":797.76,"end":799.76,"text":"是指"},{"start":799.76,"end":801.76,"text":"如果是生殖的部分"},{"start":801.76,"end":803.76,"text":"尤其是農廢的部分"},{"start":803.76,"end":805.76,"text":"這個部分是可以的"},{"start":805.76,"end":807.76,"text":"是符合我們再生能源"},{"start":807.76,"end":809.76,"text":"現在業界還是認為說"},{"start":809.76,"end":811.76,"text":"因為它不是直接產生能源"},{"start":811.76,"end":813.76,"text":"它是產生甲烷"},{"start":813.76,"end":815.76,"text":"甲烷才產生能源"},{"start":815.76,"end":817.76,"text":"如果是農廢 找氣發電"},{"start":817.76,"end":819.76,"text":"那就是有綠能的一個標章"},{"start":819.76,"end":821.76,"text":"這一塊因為中間多了一個製程"},{"start":821.76,"end":823.76,"text":"它是從農廢變甲烷"},{"start":823.76,"end":825.76,"text":"甲烷再變氫"},{"start":825.76,"end":827.76,"text":"所以甲烷變氫這一塊"},{"start":827.76,"end":829.76,"text":"沒有綠能標章"},{"start":829.76,"end":831.76,"text":"那這個好可惜"},{"start":831.76,"end":833.76,"text":"包括說英國現在"},{"start":833.76,"end":835.76,"text":"他們像AZ藥廠"},{"start":835.76,"end":837.76,"text":"他們就有生物甲烷工廠"},{"start":837.76,"end":839.76,"text":"他們認為這個產生的就是"},{"start":839.76,"end":841.76,"text":"農廢去轉換的"},{"start":841.76,"end":843.76,"text":"但是我們卻在這一塊轉換過程"},{"start":843.76,"end":845.76,"text":"少了這一段"},{"start":845.76,"end":847.76,"text":"這件事很可惜"},{"start":847.76,"end":849.76,"text":"因為我們要鼓勵企業"},{"start":849.76,"end":851.76,"text":"去跑在我們"},{"start":851.76,"end":853.76,"text":"一些政策的前面"},{"start":853.76,"end":855.76,"text":"那也要給他們充足的誘因"},{"start":855.76,"end":857.76,"text":"那企業當然會認為說"},{"start":857.76,"end":859.76,"text":"我去從事"},{"start":859.76,"end":861.76,"text":"用農廢轉換甲烷"},{"start":861.76,"end":863.76,"text":"轉換成酒精"},{"start":863.76,"end":865.76,"text":"轉換成氫能"},{"start":865.76,"end":867.76,"text":"這個是很好的一個方向"},{"start":867.76,"end":869.76,"text":"那請你研究看看"},{"start":869.76,"end":871.76,"text":"怎麼樣來做處理"},{"start":871.76,"end":873.76,"text":"好 阿國你我現在最後30秒"},{"start":873.76,"end":875.76,"text":"就是我的主題"},{"start":875.76,"end":877.76,"text":"我剛才說的就是希望"},{"start":877.76,"end":879.76,"text":"事實上我們經濟委員會"},{"start":879.76,"end":881.76,"text":"也有去考察"},{"start":881.76,"end":883.76,"text":"我們現在在新港的農場"},{"start":883.76,"end":885.76,"text":"台糖在新港的農場"},{"start":885.76,"end":887.76,"text":"那這個農場"},{"start":887.76,"end":889.76,"text":"它是鄰近於我們嘉義科學園區"},{"start":889.76,"end":891.76,"text":"距離嘉義科學園區"},{"start":891.76,"end":893.76,"text":"大概只有"},{"start":893.76,"end":895.76,"text":"大概"},{"start":895.76,"end":897.76,"text":"七分鐘的車程"},{"start":897.76,"end":899.76,"text":"這個新港農場跟嘉義家科"},{"start":899.76,"end":901.76,"text":"離嘉科很近"},{"start":901.76,"end":903.76,"text":"那我們覺得這一個地方"},{"start":903.76,"end":905.76,"text":"它很適合來做新能源的產業園區"},{"start":905.76,"end":907.76,"text":"因為我們現在國家的一個"},{"start":907.76,"end":909.76,"text":"產業園區的佈局上"},{"start":909.76,"end":911.76,"text":"現在少了對於能源"},{"start":911.76,"end":913.76,"text":"以能源為主體的"},{"start":913.76,"end":915.76,"text":"整個的一個產業園區的開發"},{"start":915.76,"end":917.76,"text":"的一個目標"},{"start":917.76,"end":919.76,"text":"那我們從過去"},{"start":919.76,"end":921.76,"text":"我們剛剛講的"},{"start":921.76,"end":923.76,"text":"不管是氫能啦或者是一些綠能的"},{"start":923.76,"end":925.76,"text":"一些研究它還是需要一些"},{"start":925.76,"end":927.76,"text":"有一些產業的群聚化"},{"start":927.76,"end":929.76,"text":"那如果我們可以在這裡把它變成"},{"start":929.76,"end":931.76,"text":"新能源的產業園區的話"},{"start":931.76,"end":933.76,"text":"是可以鼓勵更多"},{"start":933.76,"end":935.76,"text":"願意去研發新能源的"},{"start":935.76,"end":937.76,"text":"這樣的一個企業的一個進駐"},{"start":937.76,"end":939.76,"text":"然後他們如果在這件事情"},{"start":939.76,"end":941.76,"text":"可以符合R100的話"},{"start":941.76,"end":943.76,"text":"他們就最近的地方"},{"start":943.76,"end":945.76,"text":"就是因為台積電在嘉義科學園區"},{"start":945.76,"end":947.76,"text":"那如果距離七分鐘"},{"start":947.76,"end":949.76,"text":"支援的新港的農場"},{"start":949.76,"end":951.76,"text":"變成一個新能源產業園區的話"},{"start":951.76,"end":953.76,"text":"也方便這些"},{"start":953.76,"end":955.76,"text":"新能源的企業可以"},{"start":955.76,"end":957.76,"text":"跟先進的科技產業"},{"start":957.76,"end":959.76,"text":"他們所需要R100的需求"},{"start":959.76,"end":961.76,"text":"可以對接所以這件事情"},{"start":961.76,"end":963.76,"text":"我們現在部長可以趕快"},{"start":963.76,"end":965.76,"text":"啟動然後來研究"},{"start":965.76,"end":967.76,"text":"這個新港農產是否"},{"start":967.76,"end":969.76,"text":"可以讓它轉型成一個新的"},{"start":969.76,"end":971.76,"text":"產業園區可以可以"},{"start":971.76,"end":973.76,"text":"好那部長這件事要拜託你"},{"start":973.76,"end":975.76,"text":"謝謝好謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}