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tart":363.91999999999996,"end":367.91999999999996,"text":"從污染物質跟毒素的衛生標準裡面"},{"start":367.91999999999996,"end":370.15999999999997,"text":"提到的副表3裡面BAP裡面"},{"start":370.15999999999997,"end":372.88,"text":"我們追締的是在可食用的油脂"},{"start":372.88,"end":375.44,"text":"好 理論上沒有到第七"},{"start":375.44,"end":377.28,"text":"署長那是不是可以這樣說"},{"start":377.28,"end":379.59999999999997,"text":"如果台糖公司這一批出油"},{"start":379.59999999999997,"end":381.59999999999997,"text":"他一樣把它買進來了"},{"start":381.59999999999997,"end":386.4,"text":"但是它經過投入成本精煉再精煉"},{"start":386.4,"end":388.64,"text":"還是可以把它下降到最後"},{"start":388.64,"end":390.64,"text":"變成產品的時候"},{"start":390.64,"end":392.64,"text":"下降到了2PPB"},{"start":392.71999999999997,"end":395.44,"text":"它就會變成合格的產品"},{"start":395.44,"end":398.24,"text":"是這樣子做法是可以達到的"},{"start":398.24,"end":401.2,"text":"只是說中間台糖如果它進了這批出油"},{"start":401.2,"end":404.96,"text":"它的原料的標準是超標"},{"start":404.96,"end":407.12,"text":"是比較高不是叫超標"},{"start":407.12,"end":408.4,"text":"是相對高"},{"start":408.4,"end":410.08,"text":"那台糖就要投入成本"},{"start":410.08,"end":412.88,"text":"去讓它下降到產品符合標準"},{"start":412.88,"end":414.88,"text":"我想它是一個很重要的參考點"},{"start":414.88,"end":418.24,"text":"所以對於整個所謂食品科學裡面"},{"start":418.24,"end":420.24,"text":"是有可以達到讓它2的"},{"start":420.24,"end":422.24,"text":"這個是製程區可以用的地方"},{"start":422.24,"end":424.24,"text":"這個論述可以了解起來"},{"start":424.24,"end":428.24,"text":"基本上台糖這中間沒有違反食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":428.24,"end":432.24,"text":"因為這個出油它可以選擇要買進來"},{"start":432.24,"end":434.24,"text":"也可以選擇不要買進來"},{"start":434.24,"end":438.24,"text":"但是台糖至於自我的合約的自我的規範"},{"start":438.24,"end":440.24,"text":"所以他認為說"},{"start":440.24,"end":444.24,"text":"這個出油的原料就不符合他們期待的"},{"start":444.24,"end":445.24,"text":"所以他們就不要買"},{"start":445.24,"end":446.24,"text":"不想買就拒收"},{"start":446.24,"end":448.24,"text":"就是這個狀況"},{"start":448.24,"end":450.24,"text":"好 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當然是說"},{"start":701.76,"end":703.76,"text":"但是企業事實上跑在前面喔"},{"start":703.76,"end":705.76,"text":"部長我知道"},{"start":705.76,"end":707.76,"text":"你應該也知道很多企業事實上對於"},{"start":707.76,"end":709.76,"text":"新能源"},{"start":709.76,"end":711.76,"text":"然後他們現在認為甲烷自氫"},{"start":711.76,"end":713.76,"text":"已經是一個未來很可行的方向"},{"start":713.76,"end":715.76,"text":"那看起來"},{"start":715.76,"end":717.76,"text":"日本在這一塊跑得很快"},{"start":717.76,"end":719.76,"text":"那我們台灣事實上也可以來"},{"start":719.76,"end":721.76,"text":"做這樣的一個努力"},{"start":721.76,"end":723.76,"text":"但是企業在努力這一塊的時候"},{"start":723.76,"end":725.76,"text":"他們會發現有一個問題"},{"start":725.76,"end":727.76,"text":"就是我們現在"},{"start":727.76,"end":729.76,"text":"甲烷自氫的過程中"},{"start":729.76,"end":731.76,"text":"因為甲烷的產生"},{"start":731.76,"end":733.76,"text":"事實上也可以同時去處理"},{"start":733.76,"end":735.76,"text":"很多農業廢棄物"},{"start":735.76,"end":737.76,"text":"包括玉米啦"},{"start":737.76,"end":739.76,"text":"或者是一些"},{"start":739.76,"end":741.76,"text":"一些積分啦 怎樣"},{"start":741.76,"end":743.76,"text":"這樣的一個農業廢棄物"},{"start":743.76,"end":745.76,"text":"他們事實上就會產生甲烷"},{"start":745.76,"end":747.76,"text":"那如果你透過這個農廢"},{"start":747.76,"end":749.76,"text":"然後產生甲烷之後"},{"start":749.76,"end":751.76,"text":"然後你再把它"},{"start":751.76,"end":753.76,"text":"來用剛剛的技術"},{"start":753.76,"end":755.76,"text":"然後來自氫的話"},{"start":755.76,"end":757.76,"text":"這樣子的一個概念"},{"start":757.76,"end":759.76,"text":"它應該就要符合R1100"},{"start":759.76,"end":761.76,"text":"R1100能源的一個需求"},{"start":761.76,"end":763.76,"text":"那這個在國外"},{"start":763.76,"end":765.76,"text":"事實上是同意的喔"},{"start":765.76,"end":767.76,"text":"用農廢然後來"},{"start":767.76,"end":769.76,"text":"製造甲烷然後甲烷再轉換成氫"},{"start":769.76,"end":771.76,"text":"這樣子的一個化學式變化"},{"start":771.76,"end":773.76,"text":"基本上是符合R1100的"},{"start":773.76,"end":775.76,"text":"是 報告委員現在"},{"start":775.76,"end":777.76,"text":"如果用農廢"},{"start":777.76,"end":779.76,"text":"來可以轉換成發電的部分"},{"start":779.76,"end":781.76,"text":"現在我們已經折成"},{"start":781.76,"end":783.76,"text":"台灣公司大概有幾個示範案"},{"start":783.76,"end":785.76,"text":"現在要開始運行"},{"start":785.76,"end":787.76,"text":"希望明年可以開始"},{"start":787.76,"end":789.76,"text":"明年可以開始"},{"start":789.76,"end":791.76,"text":"但是卡在現在我們的"},{"start":791.76,"end":793.76,"text":"再生能源發展條例"},{"start":793.76,"end":795.76,"text":"我們再生能源是現在"},{"start":795.76,"end":797.76,"text":"生殖能的定義"},{"start":797.76,"end":799.76,"text":"是指"},{"start":799.76,"end":801.76,"text":"如果是生殖的部分"},{"start":801.76,"end":803.76,"text":"尤其是農廢的部分"},{"start":803.76,"end":805.76,"text":"這個部分是可以的"},{"start":805.76,"end":807.76,"text":"是符合我們再生能源"},{"start":807.76,"end":809.76,"text":"現在業界還是認為說"},{"start":809.76,"end":811.76,"text":"因為它不是直接產生能源"},{"start":811.76,"end":813.76,"text":"它是產生甲烷"},{"start":813.76,"end":815.76,"text":"甲烷才產生能源"},{"start":815.76,"end":817.76,"text":"如果是農廢 找氣發電"},{"start":817.76,"end":819.76,"text":"那就是有綠能的一個標章"},{"start":819.76,"end":821.76,"text":"這一塊因為中間多了一個製程"},{"start":821.76,"end":823.76,"text":"它是從農廢變甲烷"},{"start":823.76,"end":825.76,"text":"甲烷再變氫"},{"start":825.76,"end":827.76,"text":"所以甲烷變氫這一塊"},{"start":827.76,"end":829.76,"text":"沒有綠能標章"},{"start":829.76,"end":831.76,"text":"那這個好可惜"},{"start":831.76,"end":833.76,"text":"包括說英國現在"},{"start":833.76,"end":835.76,"text":"他們像AZ藥廠"},{"start":835.76,"end":837.76,"text":"他們就有生物甲烷工廠"},{"start":837.76,"end":839.76,"text":"他們認為這個產生的就是"},{"start":839.76,"end":841.76,"text":"農廢去轉換的"},{"start":841.76,"end":843.76,"text":"但是我們卻在這一塊轉換過程"},{"start":843.76,"end":845.76,"text":"少了這一段"},{"start":845.76,"end":847.76,"text":"這件事很可惜"},{"start":847.76,"end":849.76,"text":"因為我們要鼓勵企業"},{"start":849.76,"end":851.76,"text":"去跑在我們"},{"start":851.76,"end":853.76,"text":"一些政策的前面"},{"start":853.76,"end":855.76,"text":"那也要給他們充足的誘因"},{"start":855.76,"end":857.76,"text":"那企業當然會認為說"},{"start":857.76,"end":859.76,"text":"我去從事"},{"start":859.76,"end":861.76,"text":"用農廢轉換甲烷"},{"start":861.76,"end":863.76,"text":"轉換成酒精"},{"start":863.76,"end":865.76,"text":"轉換成氫能"},{"start":865.76,"end":867.76,"text":"這個是很好的一個方向"},{"start":867.76,"end":869.76,"text":"那請你研究看看"},{"start":869.76,"end":871.76,"text":"怎麼樣來做處理"},{"start":871.76,"end":873.76,"text":"好 阿國你我現在最後30秒"},{"start":873.76,"end":875.76,"text":"就是我的主題"},{"start":875.76,"end":877.76,"text":"我剛才說的就是希望"},{"start":877.76,"end":879.76,"text":"事實上我們經濟委員會"},{"start":879.76,"end":881.76,"text":"也有去考察"},{"start":881.76,"end":883.76,"text":"我們現在在新港的農場"},{"start":883.76,"end":885.76,"text":"台糖在新港的農場"},{"start":885.76,"end":887.76,"text":"那這個農場"},{"start":887.76,"end":889.76,"text":"它是鄰近於我們嘉義科學園區"},{"start":889.76,"end":891.76,"text":"距離嘉義科學園區"},{"start":891.76,"end":893.76,"text":"大概只有"},{"start":893.76,"end":895.76,"text":"大概"},{"start":895.76,"end":897.76,"text":"七分鐘的車程"},{"start":897.76,"end":899.76,"text":"這個新港農場跟嘉義家科"},{"start":899.76,"end":901.76,"text":"離嘉科很近"},{"start":901.76,"end":903.76,"text":"那我們覺得這一個地方"},{"start":903.76,"end":905.76,"text":"它很適合來做新能源的產業園區"},{"start":905.76,"end":907.76,"text":"因為我們現在國家的一個"},{"start":907.76,"end":909.76,"text":"產業園區的佈局上"},{"start":909.76,"end":911.76,"text":"現在少了對於能源"},{"start":911.76,"end":913.76,"text":"以能源為主體的"},{"start":913.76,"end":915.76,"text":"整個的一個產業園區的開發"},{"start":915.76,"end":917.76,"text":"的一個目標"},{"start":917.76,"end":919.76,"text":"那我們從過去"},{"start":919.76,"end":921.76,"text":"我們剛剛講的"},{"start":921.76,"end":923.76,"text":"不管是氫能啦或者是一些綠能的"},{"start":923.76,"end":925.76,"text":"一些研究它還是需要一些"},{"start":925.76,"end":927.76,"text":"有一些產業的群聚化"},{"start":927.76,"end":929.76,"text":"那如果我們可以在這裡把它變成"},{"start":929.76,"end":931.76,"text":"新能源的產業園區的話"},{"start":931.76,"end":933.76,"text":"是可以鼓勵更多"},{"start":933.76,"end":935.76,"text":"願意去研發新能源的"},{"start":935.76,"end":937.76,"text":"這樣的一個企業的一個進駐"},{"start":937.76,"end":939.76,"text":"然後他們如果在這件事情"},{"start":939.76,"end":941.76,"text":"可以符合R100的話"},{"start":941.76,"end":943.76,"text":"他們就最近的地方"},{"start":943.76,"end":945.76,"text":"就是因為台積電在嘉義科學園區"},{"start":945.76,"end":947.76,"text":"那如果距離七分鐘"},{"start":947.76,"end":949.76,"text":"支援的新港的農場"},{"start":949.76,"end":951.76,"text":"變成一個新能源產業園區的話"},{"start":951.76,"end":953.76,"text":"也方便這些"},{"start":953.76,"end":955.76,"text":"新能源的企業可以"},{"start":955.76,"end":957.76,"text":"跟先進的科技產業"},{"start":957.76,"end":959.76,"text":"他們所需要R100的需求"},{"start":959.76,"end":961.76,"text":"可以對接所以這件事情"},{"start":961.76,"end":963.76,"text":"我們現在部長可以趕快"},{"start":963.76,"end":965.76,"text":"啟動然後來研究"},{"start":965.76,"end":967.76,"text":"這個新港農產是否"},{"start":967.76,"end":969.76,"text":"可以讓它轉型成一個新的"},{"start":969.76,"end":971.76,"text":"產業園區可以可以"},{"start":971.76,"end":973.76,"text":"好那部長這件事要拜託你"},{"start":973.76,"end":975.76,"text":"謝謝好謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:53:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:53:26.188571+08:00","text":"是不是有請台糖副總經理、衛福部署長？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-10T10:53:26.188571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T10:53:29+08:00","text":"請台糖及姜署長。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T10:53:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:53:29+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:53:38.966667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:54:17.662857+08:00","text":"今天排了這樣的議程，召委應該是很重視台糖這一次拒收中聯的粗油，因為台糖認為這是粗油的階段，還不是所謂的產品，既然還不是產品，他就把粗油退貨，由中聯自己去吸收，因為台糖不收這樣的貨，而且貨源也都還在臺中的中聯製油，台糖直接拒收。","quality":0.777},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:54:18.331765+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:54:30.673333+08:00","text":"我想要請台糖是不是可以再具體說明，當時你們如何查到這一批粗油有問題，以及你們決定拒收的過程？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:54:31.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:54:32.649231+08:00","text":"可不可以做一個完整的說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T10:54:34.013333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:54:48.685000+08:00","text":"跟委員做一個比較完整的報告，這一次因為我們自己壓榨大豆生產的粗油不足，所以我們必須要對外採購粗油來補足。對！","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T10:54:49.771429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:55:43.409412+08:00","text":"這一次我們的招標案是3,000噸粗油，對台糖公司來講，粗油是一個中間的原料，我們的決標對象、得標廠商是福懋，福懋公司這一次交的粗油是分三批，第一批交的粗油就是這一次在中聯311號油槽的粗油，5月11號他提報311號槽的粗油是要交給台糖公司，所以我們的人員到現場去鉛封、送驗，整個油槽是封存起來送驗，要等到驗收合格了之後，台糖公司才會收購。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T10:55:43.850909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:56:02.502857+08:00","text":"這一次是我們送驗的時候，它沒有符合台糖的招標規範，我們的招標規範有很多項目，包括苯駢芘的部分，它沒有符合我們的招標規範，所以這一批油我們是拒收的，是直接留在中聯，到目前為止，它還是鉛封在現場。","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:56:02.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:56:11.060000+08:00","text":"所以你們就是5月11號到中聯現場去抽驗，抽驗後時間過多久？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T10:56:11.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:56:31.660000+08:00","text":"我們馬上送驗，在5月15號報告就出來了，因為碰到禮拜六、禮拜天，在5月18號禮拜一，我們就通知福懋公司，這一批油沒有符合台糖公司的規範，我們拒收。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:56:32.483636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:56:49.034286+08:00","text":"對，現在看起來臺中市政府認為除了拒收外，你認為送驗不合格，它的苯駢芘有超標，所以你也必須要通報，在法令上你們必須要這樣做嗎？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T10:56:49.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:57:13.674286+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個沒有所謂超標不超標的問題，因為現行食安法並沒有對粗油做任何安全的標準規範，就沒有所謂超標不超標的問題，它沒有符合台糖公司所訂的招標規範，所以我們拒收了。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:57:13.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:57:15.737778+08:00","text":"對，所以你們就決定拒收嘛？是！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:57:15.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:57:23.938667+08:00","text":"好，那請食藥署說明，對台糖這樣的決策過程，有違反你們的食品衛生管理法嗎？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:57:24.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:57:27.704000+08:00","text":"先講結論，並沒有，為什麼沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:57:28.789091+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:57:41.261818+08:00","text":"大豆在榨油之後，榨出來的油是最初級的，初級油裡面其實又酸又臭，顏色又不好，非常混濁，根本不是在食用階段。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:57:41.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:57:49.780000+08:00","text":"如何到最後可以成為我們要吃的油，其實要經過精煉，在精煉過程可以下降達88％。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:57:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:58:09.448000+08:00","text":"這個下降的過程中，如果精煉之後，我們就要管制最後出來的油符合2 ppb，它其實是用科學能夠達到儘量低的程度，而我們訂了這個標準，所以在過去台糖相關的油品以及後續我們檢驗油品都是合格的。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:58:10.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:58:15.933333+08:00","text":"對於這樣一個初級油的層次，我們是不是要去管理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:58:16.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:58:33.222857+08:00","text":"我們其實應該在HACCP裡面的重要節點決定後續你要怎麼煉，因為煉一次煉不成，走一圈不成，就走兩圈，也可以達到2 ppb，只是成本就會達另外一個層次。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:58:33.813333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:58:46.606667+08:00","text":"對於一個衛生主管機關，我們要保障人民的食品安全、油品安全，讓苯駢芘符合2 ppb的目標，我們一定是抓在油品最後出來要給民眾消費、食用的時候……","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:58:46.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:58:58.163636+08:00","text":"所以你們是抓最後它必須要達到2 ppb的標準，就是可能要投入適當的成本，在精煉過程讓它下降。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:58:58.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:59:14.155556+08:00","text":"是的，這個是可以做到的，因此，在食品中污染物質及毒素衛生標準附表三提到的BaP裡面，我們規定的是在可食用油脂，並未符合第七條第五項的通報義務。","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:59:14.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:59:30.211429+08:00","text":"署長，那是不是可以這樣說，如果台糖公司一樣把這一批粗油買進來，但是它經過投入成本，精煉再精煉，到最後變成產品的時候，還是可以把它下降到2 ppb？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:59:30.211429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T10:59:31.720000+08:00","text":"理論上是可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:59:31.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:59:35.140000+08:00","text":"它就會變成一個合格的產品，是這樣子嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:59:35.373333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:59:36.773333+08:00","text":"是的，這樣的做法可以達到。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T10:59:37.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T10:59:51.646667+08:00","text":"只是中間台糖如果進了這批粗油，它的原料標準是比較高，不是叫超標，是相對高，台糖就要投入成本去讓它下降到產品符合標準。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T10:59:51.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:00:01.073333+08:00","text":"我想它是一個很重要的參考點，所以在整個食品科學裡面，是可以讓它達到2.0 ppb的，這是製程區可以努力的地方。OK。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:00:01.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:00:07.049524+08:00","text":"所以以這樣的論述了解起來，基本上台糖在這中間並沒有違反食品安全衛生管理法。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T11:00:07.049524+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:00:08.049524+08:00","text":"就目前來說並沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:00:07.773333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:00:26.906667+08:00","text":"這個粗油他可以選擇要買進來，也可以選擇不要買進來，但是台糖基於合約的自我規範，他認為這個粗油的原料不符合他們的規範，所以他們就不買、就拒收，就是這個狀況嘛？是的。","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:00:27.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:00:30.591111+08:00","text":"好，台糖可以再說明，是不是像我說的這樣？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:00:31.045714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:00:34.474286+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯，委員所講的完全正確。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:00:34.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:00:54.537778+08:00","text":"所以對台糖來說，你們這一次購買粗油，你們拒收，然後現在臺中市政府看起來，盧秀燕很努力地要甩鍋給台糖，認為你們拒收，但違反通報義務，這件事台糖你們要這樣默默被打假的嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:00:54.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:00:56.593333+08:00","text":"你們不採取一些法律動作嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:00:56.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:01:08.510000+08:00","text":"這個部分當然我們也會評估，也會跟律師研究，後續在法律上是不是要採取任何行動，這個要經過評估。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:01:09.045714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:01:44.617143+08:00","text":"除了評估之外，你們還要去思考，盧市長已經多次傷害你們台糖的聲譽，從上一次抽驗豬肉的瘦肉精成分，驗出來就那一塊豬肉裡面有，其他全部合格，他也是把你們攻擊成這樣，現在又來了，看起來就是都不去講中聯油的原料超標，而全部都說成是你們的問題。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:01:44.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:01:46.642353+08:00","text":"我覺得台糖應該要採取一些動作吧！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:01:46.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:01:50.560000+08:00","text":"你們台糖畢竟有對外營業，你們還是有自己的商譽。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:01:50.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:01:56.606154+08:00","text":"是，市長對我們可能有一些誤解啦，我想有機會的話也希望能夠讓他……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:01:56.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:02:06.537778+08:00","text":"你去跟他說，也只是被他欺負而已啦，他都把你們欺負假的啦，你們要適度用一些法律動作才能捍衛自己公司的名譽。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:02:06.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:02:10.093333+08:00","text":"我真的強力建議台糖必須要這樣做，好不好？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:02:10.093333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:02:20.941818+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:02:20.941818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:02:22.578182+08:00","text":"我是不是可以再請部長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:02:22.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:02:30.560000+08:00","text":"不好意思，召委，再給我2分鐘就好，我「梢聲」，講話語速比較慢。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:02:30.560000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:02:32.760000+08:00","text":"蔡委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:02:32.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:02:37.760000+08:00","text":"部長，我想要跟你討論有關新能源的議題。","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:02:43.204444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:03:13.760000+08:00","text":"過去我們都在說氫能，但氫能有一個問題，就是甲烷裂解製氫後，過去的製氫可能是保存的成本太高，所以氫能源在推廣上有困難，但現在整個技術進步，大家在想如何用氫來產生能源，最好的方式就是用甲烷製氫。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:03:14.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:03:26.474286+08:00","text":"甲烷我們知道那個化學式，只要把它加溫升高到200度，裡面就會跑出氫，所以它的整個運輸過程都用甲烷運輸。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:03:26.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:03:46.510000+08:00","text":"甲烷就是酒精嘛，工業酒精就是甲烷，所以運輸甲烷到適當的地點把它升溫，就可以產生氫，氫就可以產生能源，這是未來在發展新能源的時候，氫能用甲烷製氫是最好的方式。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:03:47.617143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:04:12.537778+08:00","text":"我們知道過去要保存氫能要用極低溫，要到負253度，所以等於產生氫能的過程中又要大量耗能，但是用甲烷製氫就不用了，整個路線是液態運輸，因為就是用甲烷，到了適當的地方，再用化學式轉換，產生氫，然後就可以產生能源。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:04:12.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:04:16.560000+08:00","text":"這一塊經濟部是不是要投入適度的研究呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:04:16.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:04:38.474286+08:00","text":"事實上，各種方式我們都有投入相關研究，但就是時機跟成本的問題，如果成本可以下降的話，我們當然樂於使用，不過現在我看還是處於研究跟示範階段。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:04:38.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:04:42.426667+08:00","text":"對，當然，但是企業事實上是跑在前面。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:04:42.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:04:48.093333+08:00","text":"部長，我知道，你應該也知道，很多企業對於新能源……","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:04:48.093333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:04:49.093333+08:00","text":"都有這樣的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:04:49.093333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:05:00.510000+08:00","text":"他們現在認為甲烷製氫已經是一個未來很可行的方向，看起來日本在這一塊跑得很快，我們臺灣也可以做這樣的努力。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:05:00.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:05:24.578182+08:00","text":"但是企業在努力這一塊的時候，他們發現有一個問題，在甲烷製氫的過程中，甲烷產生的同時也可以去處理很多農業廢棄物，包括玉米秸稈或是雞糞等等，這樣的農業廢棄物就會產生甲烷。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:05:24.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:05:40.510000+08:00","text":"如果透過農廢產生甲烷，再用剛剛提到的技術來製氫的話，基本上這樣的概念應該就符合RE100的能源需求。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:05:41.093333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:05:52.510000+08:00","text":"這個部分在國外是同意的，用農廢製造甲烷，甲烷再轉換成氫，這樣的化學式變化基本上是符合RE100的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:05:52.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:06:06.510000+08:00","text":"是，報告委員，如果是以農廢轉換成發電的部分，我們已經責成台糖公司，大概有幾個示範案已經要開始運行了，希望明年可以開始。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:06:06.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:06:08.426667+08:00","text":"明年可以開始？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:06:08.426667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:06:09.426667+08:00","text":"對，示範案的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:06:08.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:06:17.760000+08:00","text":"但目前卡在我們的再生能源發展條例，再生能源的生質能定義是指……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:06:18.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:06:26.537778+08:00","text":"如果是生質能，尤其是農廢，這個部分是可以的、是OK的，符合我們再生能源……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:06:26.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:06:38.578182+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，現在業界普遍還是認為因為它不是直接產生能源，是由農廢先產生甲烷，甲烷再產生能源，如果是農廢，如沼氣發電，那就是有綠能標章。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:06:38.578182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:06:39.578182+08:00","text":"對，沼氣發電。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:06:38.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:06:44.360000+08:00","text":"但是這一塊的話中間又多了一個製程，它是由農廢變甲烷，甲烷再變氫……","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:06:44.360000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:06:45.360000+08:00","text":"OK，這個部分我們再來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:06:44.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:07:06.426667+08:00","text":"所以甲烷變氫這一塊沒有綠能標章，這個好可惜，像是英國的AZ藥廠就有生物甲烷工廠，他們認為這個產生的就叫做潔淨能源，因為他們是用農廢去轉換的，但是我們卻在這樣的轉換過程少了這一段，這件事很可惜。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:07:07.204444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:07:14.578182+08:00","text":"所以我覺得部長，我們要鼓勵企業跑在我們政策的前面，也要給他們充足的誘因。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:07:14.982222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:07:26.560000+08:00","text":"企業當然會認為用農廢轉換成甲烷、轉換成酒精，再轉換成氫能，這是一個很好的方向啊。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:07:27.617143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:07:30.760000+08:00","text":"好，這個部分我們來研究看看怎麼樣處理。好。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:07:32.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:08:04.617143+08:00","text":"部長，最後30秒要講到我的主題了，我剛才說這些就是希望，事實上我們經濟委員會也有去考察台糖的新港農場，這個農場鄰近嘉義科學園區，距離嘉義科學園區大概只有7分鐘的車程，這個新港農場離嘉科很近，我們覺得這個地方很適合做新能源的產業園區。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:08:05.487273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:08:26.537778+08:00","text":"現在國家產業園區的布局上，少了以能源為主體的產業園區的開發為目標，而不管是氫能或是綠能的相關研究，還是需要有產業的群聚化。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:08:26.902857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:08:36.593333+08:00","text":"如果我們可以將這裡變成新能源的產業園區，可以鼓勵更多願意研發新能源的企業進駐。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:08:37.487273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:08:59.360000+08:00","text":"如果在這件事情上可以符合RE100，而台積電在嘉義科學園區，如果距離7分鐘的新港農場變成一個新能源產業園區的話，也方便這些新能源的企業，可以跟先進科技產業需要RE100的需求對接。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:08:59.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:09:10.510000+08:00","text":"因此這件事情我們希望部長可以趕快啟動，研究是否能夠將新港農場轉型成新的產業園區，好不好？可以。","quality":0.698},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:09:10.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:09:12.578182+08:00","text":"好，部長，這件事要拜託你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:09:12.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:09:13.045714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2026-08-10T11:09:13.331429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:09:13.902857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-10T11:09:14.402857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:09:16.688571+08:00","text":"謝謝委員、謝謝部長。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-10T11:09:16.988571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:09:20.702857+08:00","text":"接下來我們請鄭天財委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}