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t":575.84,"end":577.24,"text":"7月份也送出了"},{"start":577.24,"end":578.6,"text":"這個版本出來了"},{"start":578.6,"end":579.5200000000001,"text":"就針對於"},{"start":579.5200000000001,"end":581.2,"text":"我們食安的這個漏洞"},{"start":581.2,"end":582.5200000000001,"text":"要把補好的修法"},{"start":582.5200000000001,"end":584,"text":"把補好的這個漏洞"},{"start":584,"end":585.5200000000001,"text":"已經送進來了"},{"start":585.5200000000001,"end":586.6400000000001,"text":"所以我們希望"},{"start":586.6400000000001,"end":588.72,"text":"大家要好好的"},{"start":588.72,"end":591.12,"text":"把食安健康這個問題"},{"start":591.12,"end":592.36,"text":"好好的來討論"},{"start":592.36,"end":593.6800000000001,"text":"看看怎麼樣的制度"},{"start":593.6800000000001,"end":594.72,"text":"能夠保障"},{"start":594.72,"end":595.88,"text":"我們國人的健康"},{"start":595.88,"end":597,"text":"這才是真正的"},{"start":597,"end":598.2,"text":"不要再推責任"},{"start":598.2,"end":600.6,"text":"互相一定要把這個責任"},{"start":600.6,"end":601.7600000000001,"text":"這個整個建構好來"},{"start":601.7600000000001,"end":603.24,"text":"尤其是公部長"},{"start":603.28,"end":605.64,"text":"經濟部包括是產業"},{"start":605.64,"end":607.16,"text":"不要一直推給食藥署"},{"start":607.16,"end":609.48,"text":"大家橫向溝通"},{"start":609.48,"end":610.92,"text":"把這事情做好來"},{"start":610.92,"end":612.6800000000001,"text":"把這個制度健全起來"},{"start":612.6800000000001,"end":613.76,"text":"好不好"},{"start":613.76,"end":614.76,"text":"謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:18:25.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:18:34.340000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請經濟部的龔部長、食藥署的姜署長、台糖的蔡副總。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-10T11:18:35.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:18:37.960000+08:00","text":"好，請部長、署長跟台糖。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:18:37.960000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:18:40.680000+08:00","text":"呂委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:18:40.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:18:41.040000+08:00","text":"三位長官。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:18:41.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:18:47.790000+08:00","text":"食品安全沒有太嚴格，是一定要嚴格，也絕對不能打折扣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:18:48.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:19:05.413333+08:00","text":"這是人民吃下去的東西，關乎他們生命、健康的安全性，所以我們要從嚴、審慎制定我們的制度、法律跟規定，這才是我們今天開這場會議最重要的精神！","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:19:06.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:19:21.384000+08:00","text":"食品安全是我們民眾最基本，也是最卑微的一個請求，對於在市場或者超市裡面買回去的東西，大家要求的就是要給家人吃的安心。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:19:21.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:19:54.717333+08:00","text":"所以中聯這一次爆發毒油、苯駢芘超標的問題，再次重創國人對食品安全的信任，尤其是中聯作為原料油的廠商，他把生產的油品分別供應給下游廠商，包括泰山、福壽還有福懋等知名加工廠，再經由餐廳、通路到零售業販賣給消費者。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:19:54.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:20:13.236000+08:00","text":"這個油品的影響越來越大，被擴大了，隨著衛福部食藥署全面清查，中聯4月份到6月份生產的油品，最終得到確認的，就有七批油品有問題，對不對？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:20:13.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:20:20.502857+08:00","text":"這七批油品都不符合規定，所以食藥署也趕快要求他們下架、回收。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:20:20.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:20:52.395000+08:00","text":"原來大家以為這件事情已經告一個段落了，但是在臺中地檢署追究整起事件的刑事責任時，發現原來早在5月15日，台糖向福懋採購中聯製造、供應的油品原料時，就發生了苯駢芘超標的問題，而且這一批原油的苯駢芘已經超標到14 ppb。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:20:52.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:20:55.533333+08:00","text":"食藥署，我們的規定是2 ppb，對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:20:56.977143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:20:59.337143+08:00","text":"超高這麼多，台糖當然會拒收。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:00.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:06.460000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們管的是已經可以吃的油，中間的製造、大豆製造壓出來的部分沒有。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:06.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:10.327273+08:00","text":"你不用再跟我講這個，我講的問題你有沒有聽懂？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:10.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:12.034286+08:00","text":"它有超標，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:12.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:17.348571+08:00","text":"當然有14、10、8，都有，但是我們訂的規定是不是2 ppb？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:17.348571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:18.348571+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:17.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:19.430000+08:00","text":"我們沒有訂脫膠原油的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:19.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:21.005714+08:00","text":"你回答我對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:21.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:22.376667+08:00","text":"我們沒有訂這個部分。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:22.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:34.010909+08:00","text":"你前面的解釋我都聽過了，我現在一條一條列給你，讓你知道你們的錯誤在哪裡，你們要改進、要修法的地方在哪裡，所以我問你，標準是2 ppb對不對？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:34.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:38.786667+08:00","text":"2 ppb是我們的食品、可以吃的油的標準，脫膠原油是不能吃的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:38.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:21:50.813333+08:00","text":"好，所以它沒有依照食品安全衛生管理法第七條第五項的規定，向地方衛生主管機關通報。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:21:51.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:22:11.696667+08:00","text":"我想請問的就是，在有疑慮的時候，台糖，你是公營，不是民營，有這些問題的時候，你就要橫向溝通，不管是和食藥署、衛福部，還是經濟部，你都要去了解，你都要告訴他們有這種問題。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:22:12.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:22:38.773333+08:00","text":"你剛剛提到的是，如果有苯駢芘超標的部分，在製造過程可以把它拿掉，但這個問題要被知道、被告知，在製造過程中要去執行、去做，才能夠被拿掉，可是你沒有通報，所以它沒有辦法在製造過程中加入某些程序，去把苯駢芘的成分降低到安全的2 ppb，對不對？","quality":0.752},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:22:39.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:22:41.425000+08:00","text":"請問一下台糖。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:22:41.425000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:22:42.425000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:22:41.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:22:48.334545+08:00","text":"副總，台糖曾經發生過苯駢芘超標的問題嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:22:48.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:22:50.296000+08:00","text":"這麼久以來有發生過嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:22:50.296000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:22:51.296000+08:00","text":"都沒有，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:22:50.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:01.322667+08:00","text":"我們只能說我們所採購的原料油、粗油，是按照我們招標的規範驗收。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:01.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:02.393333+08:00","text":"有沒有發生過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:02.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:03.862857+08:00","text":"告訴我有沒有發生過。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:04.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:04.420000+08:00","text":"以前都沒有……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:04.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:08.920000+08:00","text":"好，沒有發生過，這是第一次發生，對不對？是。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:09.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:16.457778+08:00","text":"這麼嚴重的事情第一次發生，你為什麼沒有盡你的義務、責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:18.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:20.160000+08:00","text":"你們台糖是公營耶！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:20.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:26.580000+08:00","text":"你應該橫向通報給相關單位，要讓大家知道、要做個警惕。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:26.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:37.771429+08:00","text":"應該是這麼說，其他的廠商如果也要用粗油去精煉成沙拉油，它應該在採購的時候就要去驗，不是台糖公司去幫他們驗或者是告知他們。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:37.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:45.822857+08:00","text":"沒有叫你驗，是要互相通報、提醒大家注意，有這批貨，沒有這個責任嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:46.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:56.510000+08:00","text":"我要強調，你是公營，在這麼嚴重的情形之下，你沒有通報，會讓有問題的原料變成產品。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:56.510000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:23:58.360000+08:00","text":"沒有所謂的原料……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:23:58.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:24:01.930000+08:00","text":"原料沒有通報就會變成產品，所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:24:02.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:24:08.520000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，它沒有所謂的原料有問題啦，它只是不符合台糖公司採購的規範，我們拒收。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:24:08.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:24:10.393333+08:00","text":"沒有問題你為什麼退貨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:24:10.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:24:11.500000+08:00","text":"為什麼要換貨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:24:11.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:24:13.440000+08:00","text":"它沒有符合台糖公司的驗收標準。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:24:13.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:24:17.200000+08:00","text":"對嘛，就是有問題，你才要退貨、換貨啊！所以……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理東霖","start":"2026-08-10T11:24:17.908571+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:24:18.845714+08:00","text":"它不符合我們的規定。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:24:19.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:24:21.253333+08:00","text":"副總，你不要再狡辯了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:24:25.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:00.426667+08:00","text":"我剛剛告訴你，你的通報責任，是依據「經濟部所屬事業各類災害及緊急事件速報程序」第三條第二款第五目的規定，重大事件若是有影響事業形象，或者是影響相關產業上、下游事業供需或民生者，國營事業就應該向經濟部通報，有沒有這個規定？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:01+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:02.733333+08:00","text":"龔部長，有沒有這個規定？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:03.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:09.160000+08:00","text":"我在這邊強調，國營事業應向經濟部通報，有沒有？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:09.160000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:10.160000+08:00","text":"有，但是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:09.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:10.760000+08:00","text":"你還要狡辯！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:11.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:14.983333+08:00","text":"不是啊，這是職安法跟災防法的規定。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:15.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:17.580000+08:00","text":"對，但它是寫事業。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:17.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:18.580000+08:00","text":"不是食品安全衛生管理法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:18.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:19.405000+08:00","text":"台糖是不是個事業？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:19.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:22.994286+08:00","text":"對，但是跟食品安全衛生管理法應該不太一樣。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:22.994286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:23.994286+08:00","text":"是不是事業？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:23.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:25.420000+08:00","text":"產品、事業，所以本席在這邊強調的……","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:25.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:27.994286+08:00","text":"食品安全還是要回歸食品安全衛生管理法。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:28.413333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:42.464000+08:00","text":"龔部長，你們就推到食品安全，產業、公司經營、製造出產品、我們吃進肚子後的健康，這是一連貫的，是一個產業鏈，通通要關心。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:43.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:25:56.215385+08:00","text":"在2024年蘇丹紅食安事件發生的時候，他們在辣椒粉裡面添加了蘇丹紅，讓辣椒粉的色澤看起來比較好看。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:25:56.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:26:43.933333+08:00","text":"衛福部食藥署在2024年3月11號的新聞稿當中特別強調，「食品業者於發現原料或產品有危害衛生安全之虞時，應主動停止製造、加工、販賣及辦理回收，並通報直轄市、縣（市）主管機關」白紙黑字寫在這邊，原料有問題，你們就必須向所有的主管機關通報，所有的範圍通通都要通報，這個是你們2024年3月11號的新聞稿，白紙黑字都寫出來了，是不是？","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-08-10T11:26:44.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:26:57.760000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指導，蘇丹紅跟苯駢芘的化學結構，一個是不得添加的，一個是在製程裡面本來就會有的，這兩個是不一樣的，不得添加的跟不能有的兩者不同，這個跟您做簡單的說明。謝謝。","quality":0.613},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:26:58.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:27:04.065455+08:00","text":"不一樣，署長，一個是不得添加的，一個是製造過程中可以拿掉的。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:27:07.013333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:27:22.496000+08:00","text":"中聯4月份發生，到6月30號這段期間如果有及早通報，我們及早把東西阻隔在原料、出產的地方，不要跑到下游去的話，我們人民就不會吃到了嘛，你通報一下會怎麼樣呢？","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:27:23.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:27:42.880000+08:00","text":"這些我全部這樣講下來就是要讓你們了解，不是沒有法、不是沒有規定、不是沒有制度，都有，有制度讓你們執行，是你們要不要橫向溝通、互相通報而已，尤其就法規面來說，是經濟部的國營事業就要有通報的責任，要維護安全。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:27:45.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:27:53.890000+08:00","text":"行政院7月份也已經送版本進來了，針對食安漏洞，要修法把漏洞補好。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-08-10T11:27:56.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-10T11:28:25.260000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望大家要好好地針對食安、健康這個問題討論，看怎麼樣的制度能夠保障我們國人的健康，這才是真正的……不要再推責任，要互相協助，一定要把這個責任扛起，把這整個建構好，尤其是龔部長，經濟部管的包括產業，不要一直推給食藥署，大家要橫向溝通，把這件事情做好，把這個制度健全起來，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-10T11:28:25.760000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:28:30.331429+08:00","text":"謝謝呂玉玲委員，也謝謝部長、署長、台糖。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-10T11:28:30.631429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:28:33.774286+08:00","text":"接下來請邱慧洳委員質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-10T11:28:34.074286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:28:38.645714+08:00","text":"邱慧洳委員質詢完之後，我們休息8分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-08-10T11:28:38.945714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:28:40.945714+08:00","text":"只剩我一個而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-10T11:28:41.245714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:28:42.674286+08:00","text":"只剩你一個？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-08-10T11:28:42.974286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:28:44.688571+08:00","text":"對，要不要繼續？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-10T11:28:44.988571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:28:45.988571+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-08-10T11:28:46.288571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-10T11:28:47.288571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}