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各位委員 各位官員 大家早 有請內政部劉時芳部長"},{"start":14.68,"end":34.519999999999996,"text":"部長 今天感謝昭偉 要專案報告 針對現在年輕人以及需要幫助的人最關心的社宅的方案 來跟部長做個請教"},{"start":34.52,"end":49.760000000000005,"text":"最近在115年7月份 有新修訂了一個有關於社宅新建的相關計畫 他們計畫是從114年到121年的相關計畫"},{"start":49.760000000000005,"end":61.760000000000005,"text":"把社宅8年的目標 從原本的新建13萬戶 大侃至3萬戶 降幅高達77%"},{"start":62,"end":71.36,"text":"我曾經跟部長在諮詢台的時候說 賴總統當時在選前 承諾要新建8年是新建13萬戶"},{"start":71.36,"end":79.36,"text":"原因 我再提醒一下部長 當時蔡英文總統新建12萬戶 所以賴總統喊蓋13萬戶"},{"start":79.36,"end":87.96,"text":"其實我上次在詢答的時候 你砍了一半 只剩6萬戶 今天這個詢答的時候 你的新版計畫只有剩3萬戶"},{"start":87.96,"end":91.96,"text":"那我要請教一下部長 我剛剛講的這些內容是否屬實"},{"start":91.96,"end":105.76,"text":"報告委員 你講的內容當然不是事實 我剛剛也提到這個部分 第一個我們到目前為止 所謂跟蔡總統蔡賴總統兩個加在一起"},{"start":105.76,"end":113.36,"text":"新辦25萬戶的目標並沒有改變 那因為蔡總統的12萬戶的目標 現在就陸續在實現當中"},{"start":113.36,"end":122.16,"text":"那賴總統 請問賴總統你們的新的計畫 今年7月公布就要你們新版的新建 社會住宅的數量是幾戶"},{"start":122.16,"end":129.56,"text":"我跟委員報告一下 我們現在要把這個社會住宅的新建 從直接新辦 改成叫多元新辦"},{"start":129.56,"end":134.16,"text":"這個可能委員也陸陸續續在很多會議裡面 都有聽到這樣的說法"},{"start":134.16,"end":141.56,"text":"所以我們現在的25萬戶的目標 既然沒有改變的話 13萬戶他裡面的新辦的方式就非常多元"},{"start":141.56,"end":151.16,"text":"委員你給我一點點時間 到目前為止外界有說 賴總統的新辦直接歸零 其實錯誤的 在我們副表一已經提供出來"},{"start":151.16,"end":154.56,"text":"到目前為止賴總統他的新辦是1.7萬戶"},{"start":154.56,"end":159.56,"text":"目前1.7萬戶 我們已經提供數量給大家參考"},{"start":159.56,"end":167.56,"text":"那我請教 部長你們今年蓋的社會住宅的數量是幾戶"},{"start":167.56,"end":173.56,"text":"115年 社會住宅新辦的中央辦蓋的是幾戶"},{"start":173.56,"end":182.56,"text":"我是不是請我們國土署 因為你特別講今年 今年到現在是上半年 所以我是不是請國土署來跟你回答一下"},{"start":182.56,"end":191.56,"text":"署長 有沒有人可以回答這個問題 你們就跟我講 今年 明年 後年 三年 預計新辦的社會住宅的戶數"},{"start":191.56,"end":195.56,"text":"在我時間暫停 他就沒有回答我問題"},{"start":195.56,"end":198.56,"text":"跟委員報告喔 我會讓你問完"},{"start":198.56,"end":204.56,"text":"我們在今年跟明年 中央跟地方要蓋三萬戶"},{"start":204.56,"end":210.56,"text":"我是請問中央蓋了幾戶 中央 1.8萬 大概明年呢"},{"start":210.56,"end":214.56,"text":"總累計大概這三年要蓋1.2 地方"},{"start":214.56,"end":219.56,"text":"我說 你再講清楚喔 中央新辦的社會住宅今年是蓋幾戶"},{"start":219.56,"end":226.56,"text":"中央1.8 明年呢 喔你說今年 今年是1.8萬 明年 明年多少"},{"start":226.56,"end":232.56,"text":"查一下 我們要查一下 明年還不知道"},{"start":235.56,"end":239.56,"text":"今年我看到你們的數字啊"},{"start":241.56,"end":247.56,"text":"大概才對 還快兩萬戶嘛 那你明年蓋多少"},{"start":258.56,"end":262.56,"text":"主席 時間可以暫停 他沒有辦法回答我問題啊"},{"start":262.56,"end":264.56,"text":"好 先暫停"},{"start":271.56,"end":273.56,"text":"今年1.1"},{"start":273.56,"end":278.56,"text":"今年1.1萬戶 明年呢 115年1.1萬戶 116年呢"},{"start":278.56,"end":279.56,"text":"也是1.1"},{"start":279.56,"end":283.56,"text":"也是1.1萬戶 那117年呢 我只要問3年就好"},{"start":287.56,"end":289.56,"text":"大概1000戶"},{"start":289.56,"end":291.56,"text":"只有1000戶嘛喔"},{"start":291.56,"end":295.56,"text":"那跟委員補充一下 這個是我們跟地方政府有開過會"},{"start":295.56,"end":299.56,"text":"就是目前土地沒有問題的 但是我們定期都會開會"},{"start":299.56,"end":301.56,"text":"這個數量會繼續增加"},{"start":301.56,"end":304.56,"text":"我們這些東西都是會繼續增加的"},{"start":304.56,"end":307.56,"text":"好 謝謝 那有請部長"},{"start":307.56,"end":313.56,"text":"所以部長 當時賴總統承諾大家的設載從13萬戶"},{"start":313.56,"end":316.56,"text":"跳票變成3萬戶 就是大家可以看到"},{"start":316.56,"end":319.56,"text":"115年116年還有在新建社會住宅"},{"start":319.56,"end":324.56,"text":"可是從117年以後 剛剛署長特別有講 只剩新建1000戶"},{"start":324.56,"end":328.56,"text":"這樣子的數量 我覺得本席認為非常的不好"},{"start":328.56,"end":331.56,"text":"這是雪崩式的一個下降 所以"},{"start":331.56,"end":334.56,"text":"委員您在講永失公允"},{"start":334.56,"end":336.56,"text":"要跟部長講 我們知道社會住宅的興建"},{"start":336.56,"end":339.56,"text":"這樣是我的質詢時間喔"},{"start":339.56,"end":342.56,"text":"第二個我要跟部長拜託的是喔"},{"start":342.56,"end":346.56,"text":"其實社會住宅興建跟未來我們剛經這個會期喔"},{"start":346.56,"end":349.56,"text":"在討論的婚育宅 影響非常的重大"},{"start":349.56,"end":353.56,"text":"因為社會住宅當時在修法的時候 我們就已經有20%"},{"start":353.56,"end":356.56,"text":"要把他興建的社會住宅來做婚育宅"},{"start":356.56,"end":360.56,"text":"其實這對需要幫助年輕人來講非常的重要"},{"start":360.56,"end":363.56,"text":"那尤其你們這裡 我直接講你們的問題"},{"start":363.56,"end":366.56,"text":"你們這裡當時在報告裡面承諾說"},{"start":366.56,"end":369.56,"text":"到117年你們會提供多少的婚育宅"},{"start":369.56,"end":373.56,"text":"我看是1萬戶嘛 可是剛剛你特別講到117年"},{"start":373.56,"end":376.56,"text":"你們要提供婚育宅的數量是3000戶"},{"start":376.56,"end":379.56,"text":"可是你剛剛跟我講的 你們興建的社會住宅的數量"},{"start":379.56,"end":382.56,"text":"只有1000戶耶 你們興建的社會住宅的社百數量"},{"start":382.56,"end":385.56,"text":"只有1000戶 成立20%才200戶耶"},{"start":385.56,"end":387.56,"text":"結果你跟我講這邊的報告寫3000戶耶"},{"start":387.56,"end":389.56,"text":"這個資料是不是有問題啊"},{"start":389.56,"end":392.56,"text":"張委員所以你的邏輯啊 需要再做一下修正"},{"start":392.56,"end":395.56,"text":"我剛剛有特別提到 興建社會住宅是多元興建"},{"start":395.56,"end":398.56,"text":"您現在講的是樹地上面蓋社會住宅"},{"start":398.56,"end":401.56,"text":"你這個樹地原本才114年 現在117年"},{"start":401.56,"end":405.56,"text":"有特別提到 未來有整開 有都更 有危老"},{"start":405.56,"end":408.56,"text":"這些分合的部分全部都是做婚育宅"},{"start":408.56,"end":410.56,"text":"你們能保證一定會更到3000戶嗎"},{"start":410.56,"end":412.56,"text":"來 請問署長"},{"start":412.56,"end":416.56,"text":"你們根本當時前面的計算就是拿興建的社會住宅"},{"start":416.56,"end":419.56,"text":"去乘以20%去算婚育宅的數量啊"},{"start":419.56,"end":425.56,"text":"請問你沒有把它加起來 你可以保證117年會有3000戶婚育宅嗎"},{"start":425.56,"end":429.56,"text":"跟委員報告 那個這些數據上面我們是依照目前會慢慢"},{"start":429.56,"end":433.56,"text":"在市場上面已經完工的 在陸續提供出來當婚育宅的"},{"start":433.56,"end":435.56,"text":"這個部分的算法是這樣"},{"start":435.56,"end":437.56,"text":"那委員剛剛提的這個是興建的"},{"start":437.56,"end":442.56,"text":"你剛剛是不是有跟我講說你117年預計興建的社宅大概是1000戶"},{"start":442.56,"end":446.56,"text":"那你的婚育宅可以達到3000戶 請問這組如何計算"},{"start":446.56,"end":451.56,"text":"婚育宅裡面包含現在要開始辦招租的這些案件"},{"start":451.56,"end":454.56,"text":"都會有一些婚育宅 那也包含一些都更分回"},{"start":454.56,"end":457.56,"text":"必須要提供的一些婚育宅"},{"start":457.56,"end":460.56,"text":"所以這個數量不能跟直接興辦的這個數量"},{"start":460.56,"end":463.56,"text":"你前面幾個都是用直接興辦差不多的數量去計算嘛"},{"start":463.56,"end":465.56,"text":"沒關係啦"},{"start":465.56,"end":468.56,"text":"署長 我跟你講未來我們一定有時間可以證明一切"},{"start":468.56,"end":472.56,"text":"我要拜託部長的就是其實婚育宅 尤其是政府興建的"},{"start":472.56,"end":475.56,"text":"真的可以讓人民的心理可以比較安心"},{"start":475.56,"end":479.56,"text":"我舉個例子 我有一個朋友 他本來一直想要生小孩"},{"start":479.56,"end":482.56,"text":"他一直在外面租房 一直生不出小孩"},{"start":482.56,"end":486.56,"text":"後來他住到婚育宅以後 那個太太他心裡就非常的輕鬆"},{"start":486.56,"end":489.56,"text":"覺得他有一個可以住12年以上的房子"},{"start":489.56,"end":491.56,"text":"後來就順利懷孕了"},{"start":491.56,"end":495.56,"text":"這就是為什麼興建社會住宅比在外面租房子"},{"start":495.56,"end":497.56,"text":"我們也是有這樣子的期許"},{"start":497.56,"end":503.56,"text":"我認為真的對民眾的心理的影響真的差非常的多"},{"start":503.56,"end":506.56,"text":"那接下來我要請教這個署長"},{"start":506.56,"end":511.56,"text":"我還是跟委員報告一下婚育宅真的不是只有直接從樹地興建"},{"start":511.56,"end":514.56,"text":"我們剛剛有提到 現在只到是婚育宅"},{"start":514.56,"end":516.56,"text":"他可以住至少12年"},{"start":516.56,"end":518.56,"text":"是沒有錯 條件都沒有錯"},{"start":518.56,"end":520.56,"text":"如果是婚育宅的話 請問最多是租屋幾年"},{"start":520.56,"end":524.56,"text":"都一樣 只要是婚育宅符合資格"},{"start":524.56,"end":526.56,"text":"租金符合資格可以住12年嗎"},{"start":526.56,"end":528.56,"text":"是的 只要是婚育宅符合資格"},{"start":528.56,"end":531.56,"text":"房東會願意讓一般的民眾"},{"start":531.56,"end":537.56,"text":"所有權人是政府啊 一般房東是私人"},{"start":537.56,"end":540.56,"text":"他怎麼可能願意讓你一般人住12年"},{"start":540.56,"end":542.56,"text":"所以部長我要跟您報告"},{"start":542.56,"end":544.56,"text":"這個想法我深想的不對啦"},{"start":544.56,"end":546.56,"text":"所以請還是要回去好好檢討"},{"start":546.56,"end":548.56,"text":"那接下來實際的關係"},{"start":548.56,"end":550.56,"text":"我還是要問最近大家最關心的一個重點"},{"start":550.56,"end":552.56,"text":"就是包租代管龍頭"},{"start":552.56,"end":555.56,"text":"造基屋管有限公司"},{"start":555.56,"end":557.56,"text":"股份有限公司"},{"start":557.56,"end":560.56,"text":"他最近發生了這樣子的一個非常大的問題"},{"start":560.56,"end":563.56,"text":"他是現在全台灣包租代管的龍頭"},{"start":563.56,"end":566.56,"text":"他所掌管的業務包含他的子公司"},{"start":566.56,"end":569.56,"text":"造基投資 寄居縣管理股份有分公司"},{"start":569.56,"end":572.56,"text":"他的整個行話的範圍有18個縣市"},{"start":572.56,"end":575.56,"text":"他總共的案件2萬8千件以上"},{"start":575.56,"end":577.56,"text":"市占率占60%"},{"start":577.56,"end":580.56,"text":"所以我們今天市占率占60%"},{"start":580.56,"end":583.56,"text":"我們看到今天所有我們的報告書裡面"},{"start":583.56,"end":587.56,"text":"完全沒有寫到有關於現在這個問題"},{"start":587.56,"end":591.56,"text":"只有寫說是私人非法爭議等等相關的問題"},{"start":591.56,"end":594.56,"text":"我想要請問這個內政部"},{"start":594.56,"end":597.56,"text":"部長不是因為他跟政府合作"},{"start":597.56,"end":600.56,"text":"他在網站上都說他跟政府合作"},{"start":600.56,"end":605.56,"text":"所以他才可以推廣現在他所最重要的包租代管業務"},{"start":605.56,"end":609.56,"text":"所以你們如果報告只有寫這樣是不是行政有卸責的問題"},{"start":609.56,"end":611.56,"text":"你們評選到底有沒有在護航"},{"start":611.56,"end":613.56,"text":"請部長回答"},{"start":613.56,"end":616.56,"text":"報告委員我想您講的部分有一部分不是事實"},{"start":616.56,"end":620.56,"text":"第一個我們在第一時間發生這個事情的時候"},{"start":620.56,"end":622.56,"text":"就已經了解他已經設法"},{"start":622.56,"end":625.56,"text":"那既然是設法的話我們就尊重司法的偵查"},{"start":625.56,"end":627.56,"text":"不予評論任何設法的部分"},{"start":627.56,"end":629.56,"text":"只知道說他是私募公司在"},{"start":629.56,"end":633.56,"text":"那這個部分是牽涉到公司法跟金融管理機構應該處理的"},{"start":633.56,"end":636.56,"text":"但是就我們在處理包租代管業務上面"},{"start":636.56,"end":640.56,"text":"我們要先確保包租代管業務是不是合法"},{"start":640.56,"end":644.56,"text":"還有我們現在的房東房客的權益有沒有受到改變"},{"start":644.56,"end":648.56,"text":"到目前為止這兩項都是還是在可控的風險之內"},{"start":648.56,"end":651.56,"text":"請教部長這怎麼會說是可控的風險"},{"start":651.56,"end":654.56,"text":"過去來講這些案件都是由政府公開招標"},{"start":654.56,"end":658.56,"text":"民眾他願意把他自己的房子拿出來"},{"start":658.56,"end":661.56,"text":"就是因為政府他相信政府"},{"start":661.56,"end":666.56,"text":"所以才可以讓這家公司有這麼多2萬8千件以上的整個案件"},{"start":666.56,"end":670.56,"text":"那你現在說你要如何讓這些房東房客安心"},{"start":670.56,"end":672.56,"text":"你要怎麼去做"},{"start":672.56,"end":675.56,"text":"你現在要讓私人公司接手嗎"},{"start":675.56,"end":679.56,"text":"那誰可以掛保證未來所有的問題不會有產生問題"},{"start":679.56,"end":681.56,"text":"報告委員造機公司"},{"start":681.56,"end":684.56,"text":"那你們有沒有依照交管法律的規定去做財務上的監督"},{"start":684.56,"end":686.56,"text":"我們當然都是依法行政"},{"start":687.56,"end":690.56,"text":"報告委員我們現在在轉嫌上面"},{"start":690.56,"end":694.56,"text":"寄居縣已經寄居縣已經聲明說"},{"start":694.56,"end":697.56,"text":"他現在完全沒有辦法繼續營運公司了"},{"start":697.56,"end":703.56,"text":"造機公司他的銀行已經有相關的被查封的問題"},{"start":703.56,"end":705.56,"text":"被警示帳戶的問題"},{"start":705.56,"end":707.56,"text":"那請問現在如何解決"},{"start":707.56,"end":709.56,"text":"那我是不是請董事長跟您報告一下好嗎"},{"start":709.56,"end":710.56,"text":"來"},{"start":710.56,"end":711.56,"text":"哪位董事長"},{"start":711.56,"end":712.56,"text":"柱柱董事長"},{"start":712.56,"end":713.56,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":714.56,"end":717.56,"text":"好 等一下等一下主席時間暫停一下"},{"start":717.56,"end":720.56,"text":"這個就是我今天要問主席的問題"},{"start":720.56,"end":724.56,"text":"等一下我請教主席"},{"start":724.56,"end":730.56,"text":"今天各部會裡面每一個單位都有提供專案報告"},{"start":730.56,"end":733.56,"text":"可是我沒有看到國家住住中心的專案報告"},{"start":733.56,"end":737.56,"text":"我想請教主席他是不是沒有尊重我們委員會"},{"start":737.56,"end":740.56,"text":"請問各位委員手上有沒有拿到住住中心的專案報告"},{"start":740.56,"end":743.56,"text":"報告委員並沒有要求我們要提專案報告"},{"start":743.56,"end":750.56,"text":"你來開會來講這個社宅包租代管的部分說沒有提供專案報告"},{"start":750.56,"end":752.56,"text":"那我們今天怎麼開會"},{"start":753.56,"end":754.56,"text":"這委員可以詢問"},{"start":754.56,"end":757.56,"text":"因為我們並沒有被要求要來提專案報告"},{"start":757.56,"end":762.56,"text":"你今天有列在出席的名單上面嗎"},{"start":762.56,"end":766.56,"text":"我們是出席但是討論的議題裡面並沒有"},{"start":766.56,"end":769.56,"text":"沒有沒有 你有寫說是因為你認為是司法爭議"},{"start":769.56,"end":771.56,"text":"所以你覺得跟你沒關係"},{"start":771.56,"end":773.56,"text":"所以今天不提專案報告嗎"},{"start":773.56,"end":775.56,"text":"當然是跟我們有關所以我才來啊"},{"start":775.56,"end":777.56,"text":"我才會來跟委員說明"},{"start":777.56,"end":780.56,"text":"請問主席他有沒有提供專案報告"},{"start":780.56,"end":782.56,"text":"沒有委員拿到你的專案報告啊"},{"start":782.56,"end":785.56,"text":"所以我是不是等你提供專案報告以後再上來"},{"start":785.56,"end":789.56,"text":"開會通知上面並沒有提到我們這個事情"},{"start":789.56,"end":793.56,"text":"今天講的有關於社宅包租代管"},{"start":793.56,"end":796.56,"text":"今天剛剛內政部長都特別在講啊"},{"start":796.56,"end":801.56,"text":"他覺得包租代管就是現在百萬這個租屋補貼的政策之一"},{"start":801.56,"end":802.56,"text":"今天沒有提供專案報告"},{"start":802.56,"end":805.56,"text":"然後我們現在看到社會上針對造基物管"},{"start":805.56,"end":809.56,"text":"這麼大一個風波影響到兩萬八千件物管的事情"},{"start":809.56,"end":812.56,"text":"造基只有一萬五千件並沒有兩萬八千件"},{"start":812.56,"end":814.56,"text":"還包含他的子公司沒有嗎"},{"start":814.56,"end":815.56,"text":"他沒有子公司"},{"start":815.56,"end":818.56,"text":"基居卸就是基居卸造基就是造基"},{"start":818.56,"end":819.56,"text":"他沒有關係"},{"start":820.56,"end":822.56,"text":"這個部分我沒有辦法替他們回答"},{"start":822.56,"end":823.56,"text":"但是就反正都目前沒有"},{"start":823.56,"end":824.56,"text":"好還是給"},{"start":824.56,"end":825.56,"text":"好那給董事長"},{"start":825.56,"end":827.56,"text":"既然你都沒有提供專案報告"},{"start":827.56,"end":828.56,"text":"那我看你要怎麼回答"},{"start":828.56,"end":833.56,"text":"那我請教一下針對這個我們的房東跟房客"},{"start":833.56,"end":835.56,"text":"他現在你們有沒有過去"},{"start":835.56,"end":837.56,"text":"到底你們有沒有查核這家公司"},{"start":837.56,"end":838.56,"text":"他的財務狀況有沒有問題"},{"start":838.56,"end":841.56,"text":"那我們現在針對他的租金跟押金"},{"start":841.56,"end":844.56,"text":"跟整個未來移轉的部分產生問題"},{"start":844.56,"end":845.56,"text":"比如說我舉例啊"},{"start":845.56,"end":847.56,"text":"有些的案件"},{"start":847.56,"end":849.56,"text":"你要怎麼去分配給這六家"},{"start":849.56,"end":851.56,"text":"你們現在講的這個這個民間的這個"},{"start":851.56,"end":854.56,"text":"六都六都共九十家業者"},{"start":854.56,"end":855.56,"text":"你們怎麼分配"},{"start":855.56,"end":857.56,"text":"我們有些案件比較好"},{"start":857.56,"end":858.56,"text":"有些案件比較不好"},{"start":858.56,"end":859.56,"text":"你們怎麼分配"},{"start":859.56,"end":861.56,"text":"各位報告其實我們在前天已經開始"},{"start":861.56,"end":864.56,"text":"啟動這個轉型的平台"},{"start":864.56,"end":867.56,"text":"那當然第一個是我們我們在住中心的網站"},{"start":867.56,"end":871.56,"text":"有開通一個需求協助登記的一個表單"},{"start":871.56,"end":874.56,"text":"那房東可以上網來填這個表單"},{"start":874.56,"end":877.56,"text":"上面就會有所有可以服務業者的名單"},{"start":877.56,"end":881.56,"text":"第一個他可以自己選他要找誰來服務"},{"start":881.56,"end":885.56,"text":"第二個如果他沒有特別偏好哪一家業者"},{"start":885.56,"end":891.56,"text":"那我們會依照這一些沒有特別偏好的這些房東的順序"},{"start":891.56,"end":893.56,"text":"那就依照業者的順序來輪配"},{"start":893.56,"end":896.56,"text":"所以說這個部分的制度都已經建立起來"},{"start":896.56,"end":897.56,"text":"而且已經運作了兩天"},{"start":897.56,"end":899.56,"text":"目前非常的順暢"},{"start":899.56,"end":900.56,"text":"好謝謝花董事長"},{"start":900.56,"end":902.56,"text":"花董事長我最後問你一個問題"},{"start":902.56,"end":905.56,"text":"我相信政府是相信"},{"start":905.56,"end":909.56,"text":"我們是相信政府才有這麼多的房客房東"},{"start":909.56,"end":911.56,"text":"來去加入這樣子的一個專案"},{"start":911.56,"end":914.56,"text":"最後我請教你們未來針對這個這家公司"},{"start":914.56,"end":917.56,"text":"有沒有一個處罰的機制"},{"start":917.56,"end":923.56,"text":"我想因為基居縣目前剛之前他們負責人已經表示他無法營運"},{"start":923.56,"end":926.56,"text":"所以我們當然第一個優先是把賬房當房客的權益"},{"start":926.56,"end":929.56,"text":"來執行這個服務業的轉"},{"start":929.56,"end":931.56,"text":"你們過去有對他財務的差合嗎"},{"start":931.56,"end":932.56,"text":"有沒有處罰"},{"start":932.56,"end":936.56,"text":"其實根本報告本質上我們當然都會做業者的評鑑"},{"start":936.56,"end":940.56,"text":"但是所有業者他內部的財務狀況"},{"start":940.56,"end":945.56,"text":"那基本上已經不是我們只是執行包書代管業務"},{"start":945.56,"end":948.56,"text":"我們能夠查的範圍是有限的"},{"start":948.56,"end":955.56,"text":"所以說特別是他的董事長私人在外的另外的行為"},{"start":955.56,"end":958.56,"text":"更不涉及包書代管業務本身"},{"start":958.56,"end":961.56,"text":"那這個部分我們在實務上面確實沒有權利去查核"},{"start":961.56,"end":963.56,"text":"我最愛的是要拜託董事長"},{"start":963.56,"end":964.56,"text":"他是特許的行業"},{"start":964.56,"end":966.56,"text":"所以政府還是要有監管的責任"},{"start":966.56,"end":969.56,"text":"現在看到這麼多的受害者他們質詢自修會"},{"start":969.56,"end":973.56,"text":"希望說董事長這邊一定要儘速來解決相關的問題"},{"start":973.56,"end":976.56,"text":"也確保房東房客以及整體租屋市場的安全"},{"start":976.56,"end":977.56,"text":"謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:12:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:12:21.659130+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員、各位官員，大家早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:12:22.297391+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:12:28.041739+08:00","text":"有請內政部劉世芳部長。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:12:28.041739+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:12:29.041739+08:00","text":"張委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:12:28.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:12:29.120889+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:12:29.561778+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:12:48.079111+08:00","text":"感謝召委今天召開這個專案報告，我想針對現在年輕人以及需要幫助的人最關心的社宅方案跟部長請教。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:12:48.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:13:15.280000+08:00","text":"最近115年7月份新修訂了社宅興建的相關計畫，這是從114年到121年的相關計畫，其中8年的目標從原本興建社宅13萬戶大砍至3萬戶，降幅高達77%！","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:13:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:13:41.745000+08:00","text":"我還記得我曾經跟部長在質詢臺的時候說，賴總統當時在選前承諾8年興建13萬戶，他的原因我再提醒一下部長，當時是因為蔡英文總統興建12萬戶，所以賴總統喊蓋13萬戶，結果上次在詢答的時候，你砍了一半，只剩6萬戶，今天詢答的時候，你的新版計畫只剩3萬戶。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:13:42.141818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:13:45.778182+08:00","text":"我要請教一下部長，我剛剛講的這些內容是否屬實？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:13:45.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:13:49.748235+08:00","text":"報告委員，你講的內容當然不是事實。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:13:49.748235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:13:50.748235+08:00","text":"哪裡不是事實？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:13:50.018824+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:13:52.454118+08:00","text":"我跟媒體也提到這個部分。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:13:52.724706+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:14:08.020000+08:00","text":"第一個，到目前為止，所謂蔡總統、賴總統兩個加在一起興辦25萬戶的目標並沒有改變，因為蔡總統的12萬戶目標現在都陸續在實現當中，賴總統上任以來……","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:14:08.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:14:15.940000+08:00","text":"我請教一下，請問根據賴總統、你們的新版計畫（即今年7月公布的計畫），興建社會住宅的數量是幾戶？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:14:16.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:14:27.989630+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告一下，我們現在要把社會住宅的興建，從直接興辦改成叫多元興辦，可能委員也會陸陸續續在很多會議裡面聽到這樣的說法。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:14:28.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:14:35.354444+08:00","text":"所以我們現在的25萬戶目標既然沒有改變的話，13萬戶的興辦方式就非常多元。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:14:35.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:14:37.438261+08:00","text":"委員，你給我一點點時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:14:37.646957+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:14:53.282222+08:00","text":"到目前為止，外界有說賴總統這個興辦直接歸零，其實是錯誤的，在我們書面的附件1已經提供出來，到目前為止，賴總統的興辦是1.7萬戶，目前是1.7萬戶，我們已經提供數據給大家參考……","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:14:53.282222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:14:54.282222+08:00","text":"你等一下，我拿一下你的資料。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:14:53.923636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:01.560000+08:00","text":"我請教部長，你們今年蓋的社會住宅數量是幾戶？今年？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:01.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:07.185000+08:00","text":"對，115年興辦社會住宅，中央蓋幾戶？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:07.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:15.741818+08:00","text":"我是不是請國土署說明，因為你特別講今年，今年到現在是上半年，所以我是不是請國土署來回應？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:16.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:16.785000+08:00","text":"好，請蔡署長。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:17.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:19.485000+08:00","text":"有沒有人可以回答這個問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:19.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:25.335000+08:00","text":"你們就跟我講今年、明年、後年這3年預計興辦的社會住宅的戶數。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:26.093333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:29.293333+08:00","text":"召委，時間暫停，他都沒有回答我的問題。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:31.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:32.310000+08:00","text":"我會讓你問完。好。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:33.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:38.226667+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，今年跟明年，中央跟地方要蓋3萬戶。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:38.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:42.665263+08:00","text":"我是請問中央蓋了幾戶？1.8。1.8萬？嗯。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:43.612632+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:44.244211+08:00","text":"明年呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:44.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:48.252308+08:00","text":"總累計大概這3年要蓋1.2萬，地方。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:48.994783+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:53.342609+08:00","text":"你再講清楚，中央興辦的社會住宅今年是蓋幾戶？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:53.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:54.196364+08:00","text":"中央1.8萬。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:54.514545+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:55.150909+08:00","text":"明年呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:55.787273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:15:56.741818+08:00","text":"你說今年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:15:57.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:00.241818+08:00","text":"今年是1.8萬，明年是多少？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:01.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:03.760000+08:00","text":"我們要查一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:04.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:06.160000+08:00","text":"明年還不知道？嗯。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:10.287273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:21.207059+08:00","text":"我看到你們的數字，今年大概才快兩萬戶嘛，那你明年蓋多少？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:32.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:34.033684+08:00","text":"主席，是不是時間可以暫停？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:34.244211+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:36.138947+08:00","text":"他沒有辦法回答我的問題。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:37.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:38.060000+08:00","text":"先暫停。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:45.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:46.893333+08:00","text":"今年1.1萬。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:47.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:52.202857+08:00","text":"今年1.1萬戶，115年1.1萬戶。116年呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:52.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:53.226667+08:00","text":"也是1.1萬。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:53.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:16:55.426667+08:00","text":"也是1.1萬戶。117年呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:16:55.693333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:17:02.893333+08:00","text":"我只要問3年就好。1,000戶。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:17:03.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:17:04.760000+08:00","text":"只有1,000戶嘛。嗯。好。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:17:05.741818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:17:19.310000+08:00","text":"跟委員補充一下，這是我們跟地方政府開過會，是目前土地沒有問題的，但是我們定期都會開會，這個數量會繼續增加，這些都是會繼續增加的。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:17:20.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:17:38.296842+08:00","text":"有請部長，所以部長，當時賴總統承諾大家的社宅從13萬戶跳票變成3萬戶，大家可以看到115年、116年還有在興建社會住宅，可是從117年以後，剛剛署長特別有講，只剩興建1,000戶！","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:17:38.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:17:49.060000+08:00","text":"這樣子的數量，本席認為非常不好，就是雪崩式的下降，這個就是要跟部長講……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:17:49.060000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:17:51.160000+08:00","text":"委員，您這樣講有失公允，我們社會住宅的興建不是三個月、六個月就可以蓋完的……","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:17:51.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:17:52.960000+08:00","text":"部長，現在是我的質詢時間。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:17:53.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:18:14.337778+08:00","text":"第二個，我要跟部長拜託的是，其實社會住宅的興建對於我們這個會期所討論未來的婚育宅影響非常重大，因為社會住宅在修法當時就已經有20%要做為婚育宅，這對於需要幫助的人或是年輕人來講非常重要。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:18:14.747500+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:18:38.893333+08:00","text":"尤其你們這裡……我就直接講你們的問題，你們當時在報告裡面承諾到117年會提供多少的婚育宅，我看是1萬戶嘛，剛剛你已經特別講到117年你們要提供婚育宅的數量是3,000戶，可是你剛剛跟我講你們興建的社會住宅數量只有1,000戶，1,000戶乘以20%才200戶！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:18:39.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:18:43.378182+08:00","text":"結果你這邊的報告寫3,000戶，這個資料是不是有問題啊？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:18:43.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:18:46.393333+08:00","text":"張委員，所以你的邏輯需要再做一下修正。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:18:46.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:18:52.360000+08:00","text":"我剛剛有特別提到興建社會住宅是多元興建，您現在講的是素地上面蓋社會住宅，比例還是20%……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:18:52.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:18:55.310000+08:00","text":"對啊，你原本興建從114年到117年……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:18:55.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:02.360000+08:00","text":"但是我們這裡有提到，未來有整開、都更、危老，這些分回部分全部都是做婚育宅。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:02.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:04.393333+08:00","text":"請問你能保證一定會蓋到3,000戶嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:04.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:19.299130+08:00","text":"請問署長，你們當時前面的計算，根本就是拿興建的社會住宅去乘以20%來算婚育宅的數量，請問你沒有把它加進來，你可以保證117年會有3,000戶婚育宅嗎？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:19.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:29.360000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這些數據我們是依照目前在市場上已經完工，再陸續提供出來當婚育宅的，這個部分的算法是這樣。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:29.713846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:31.406154+08:00","text":"委員剛剛提的是興建的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:31.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:40.349474+08:00","text":"你剛剛是不是有跟我講117年預計興建的社宅大概是1,000戶，那你的婚育宅可以達到3,000戶，請問如何計算？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:40.349474+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:41.349474+08:00","text":"要分回的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:40.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:54.393333+08:00","text":"婚育宅裡面，包含現在要開始辦招租的這些案件都會有一些婚育宅，也包含一些都更分回必須要提供的婚育宅，所以這個數量不能跟直接興辦的數量串在一起。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:54.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:57.423636+08:00","text":"你前面幾個都是用直接興辦差不多的數量去計算嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:57.423636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:58.423636+08:00","text":"我剛剛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:57.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:19:58.560000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:19:59.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:02.417143+08:00","text":"署長，我跟你講，未來我們一定有時間可以證明一切。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:02.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:09.372500+08:00","text":"我要拜託部長，其實婚育宅，尤其是政府興建的，真的可以讓人民的心裡比較安心。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:09.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:29.349474+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，我的一個朋友本來一直想要生小孩，他都是在外面租房，一直生不出小孩，後來他住到婚育宅以後，太太心裡就非常輕鬆，覺得有一個可以住12年以上的房子，後來就順利懷孕了，這就是為什麼興建社會住宅跟在外面租房子相比，我認為對於民眾心理的影響真的差別非常多。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:29.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:31.378182+08:00","text":"非常恭喜，我們也是有這樣子的期許，沒有錯。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:37.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:40.310000+08:00","text":"接下來我要請教部長有關……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:40.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:48.360000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我還是跟委員報告一下，婚育宅真的不是只有直接從素地興建，我們剛剛有提到，現在只要是都更分回，全部都是婚育宅。","quality":0.736},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:48.360000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:50.560000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經講，從素地興建的婚育宅至少可以租12年。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:50.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:52.160000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯，條件都沒有變。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:52.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:54.442353+08:00","text":"如果是包租代管的婚育宅，請問最多是租幾年？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:54.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:55.175385+08:00","text":"都一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:55.175385+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:56.175385+08:00","text":"可以租12年嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:55.483077+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:20:58.252308+08:00","text":"只要是婚育宅，符合資格的……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:20:58.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:21:00.378182+08:00","text":"租金補貼也可以住12年嗎？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:21:00.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:21:02.393333+08:00","text":"是的，只要是符合婚育宅資格的話。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:21:02.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:21:05.287273+08:00","text":"房東會願意讓一般的民眾……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:21:05.287273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:21:06.287273+08:00","text":"不是一般的民眾，是婚育宅裡面的青年族群。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:21:05.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:21:14.345714+08:00","text":"社宅興建所有權人是政府，一般房東是私人，他怎麼可能願意讓一般人住12年？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:21:14.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:21:20.393333+08:00","text":"所以部長，我要跟您報告，這個想法非常地不對，還是要請回去好好檢討。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:21:20.782222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:22:05.337778+08:00","text":"接下來因為時間的關係，我還是要問最近大家最關心的重點，就是包租代管龍頭兆基屋管股份有限公司最近發生一個非常大的問題，它是現在全臺灣包租代管的龍頭，其所掌管的業務包含子公司趙姬投資、寄居蟹管理顧問公司，整個範圍含括18個縣市，總共案件有2萬8,000件以上，市占率60%，但是我們看到今天所有的報告書裡面，完全沒有寫到有關於現在的這個問題，只有寫是私人非法爭議等等相關的問題。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:22:05.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:22:23.393333+08:00","text":"我想要請問內政部部長，不是因為它跟政府合作……它在網站上都說它跟政府合作，所以才可以推廣現在最重要的包租代管業務，你們如果報告只有寫這樣，是不是行政有卸責的問題？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:22:23.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:22:25.393333+08:00","text":"你們評選到底有沒有在護航？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:22:25.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:22:27.160000+08:00","text":"請部長回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:22:27.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:22:30.402105+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想您講的部分，有一部分不是事實。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:22:30.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:02.360000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們在第一時間發生這個事情的時候就了解它已經涉法，既然涉法的話，我們就尊重司法偵查，不予評論任何涉法的部分，只知道它是私募公司債，這個部分是牽涉到公司法跟金融管理機構應該處理的，但是就我們在處理包租代管業務上面，我們要先確保包租代管業務是不是合法，還有現在房東、房客的權益有沒有改變，到目前為止這兩項都還是在可控的風險之內。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:02.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:05.360000+08:00","text":"請教部長，這怎麼會說是可控的風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:05.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:08.826667+08:00","text":"就過去來講，這些案件都是由政府公開招標，民眾……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:08.826667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:09.826667+08:00","text":"我們當然有公開招標。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:09.093333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:26.226667+08:00","text":"他願意把自己的房子拿出來，就是因為他相信政府，所以才可以讓這家公司……有這麼多、2萬8,000件以上的案件，現在你要如何讓這些房東、房客安心，你要怎麼做？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:26.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:29.310000+08:00","text":"你現在要讓私人公司接手嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:29.750476+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:33.369524+08:00","text":"誰可以掛保證未來不會產生問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:33.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:35.310000+08:00","text":"報告委員，兆基公司或者寄居蟹……","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:35.690435+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:38.429565+08:00","text":"你們有沒有依照相關法令規定去做財務上的監督？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:38.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:40.360000+08:00","text":"我們當然都是依法行政，現在……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:40.360000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:41.560000+08:00","text":"你們如何監督？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:41.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:45.790769+08:00","text":"報告委員，現在在轉銜上面，寄居蟹的部分已經請六大租服公會……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:46.098462+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:51.372500+08:00","text":"寄居蟹已經聲明它現在完全沒有辦法繼續營運公司了……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:51.372500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:23:52.372500+08:00","text":"是的，所以六大租服公會已經轉銜了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:23:52.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:01.337778+08:00","text":"如果兆基公司在銀行已經有相關被查封的問題、被警示帳戶的問題，請問現在如何解決？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:01.677647+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:03.442353+08:00","text":"我是不是請董事長跟您報告一下，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:04.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:05.360000+08:00","text":"哪位董事長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:05.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:06.360000+08:00","text":"住都的董事長？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:06.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:07.226667+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:07.226667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:09.360000+08:00","text":"好，住都中心。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:09.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:14.345714+08:00","text":"等一下，主席，時間暫停一下，這個就是我今天要問主席的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:14.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:31.349474+08:00","text":"等一下，我要請教主席，今天各部會裡面每一個單位都有提供專案報告，可是我沒有看到國家住都中心的專案報告，我想要請教主席，他是不是沒有尊重我們委員會？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:31.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:34.423636+08:00","text":"請問各位委員手上有沒有拿到住都中心的專案報告？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:34.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:37.383529+08:00","text":"報告委員，並沒有要求我們提專案報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:37.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:46.337778+08:00","text":"你來開會講社宅、包租代管的部分，沒有提供專案報告，那我們今天怎麼開會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:47.702857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:51.383529+08:00","text":"委員可以詢問，因為我們並沒有被要求提專案報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:51.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:54.060000+08:00","text":"你今天有列在出席……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:54.060000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:55.060000+08:00","text":"只要有列席的單位都要提供。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:54.774286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:24:55.845714+08:00","text":"出席名單上面。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:24:56.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:00.324706+08:00","text":"沒有，我們是出席，但是討論的議題裡面並沒有……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:01.191579+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:07.378182+08:00","text":"你有寫，你寫說因為你認為是私法爭議，你覺得跟你無關，所以今天不提專案報告嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:07.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:11.337778+08:00","text":"當然是跟我們有關，所以我才來，要來跟委員說明。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:11.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:14.345714+08:00","text":"請問主席，他有沒有提供專案報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:14.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:16.406154+08:00","text":"沒有委員拿到你的專案報告啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:16.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:19.402105+08:00","text":"所以我是不是等你提供專案報告以後再上來質詢？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:19.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:23.324706+08:00","text":"因為開會通知上面並沒有提到我們這個事情。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:23.324706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:24.324706+08:00","text":"開會通知上面並沒有提到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:23.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:43.360000+08:00","text":"今天講的有關於社宅、包租代管，剛剛內政部部長都特別講，他覺得包租代管就是現在百萬租屋補貼的政策之一，結果你今天沒有提供專案報告，然後我們現在看到社會上針對兆基屋管這麼大的風波，影響到2萬8,000件物管的事情……","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:43.736471+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:46.383529+08:00","text":"兆基只有1萬5,000件，並沒有2萬8,000件。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:46.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:48.378182+08:00","text":"還包含它的子公司，沒有嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:48.726667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:52.345714+08:00","text":"它沒有子公司，寄居蟹就是寄居蟹，兆基就是兆基。","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:52.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:53.360000+08:00","text":"他們沒有關係……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:54.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:25:57.260000+08:00","text":"這個部分我沒有辦法替他們回答，但是就法律上目前……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:25:59.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:26:02.448889+08:00","text":"董事長，既然你都沒有提供專案報告，那我看你要怎麼回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:26:02.837778+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:26:11.406154+08:00","text":"我請教一下，針對房東跟房客，過去到底你們有沒有查核這家公司？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:26:11.650909+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:26:12.469091+08:00","text":"它的財務狀況有沒有問題？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:26:13.202857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:26:25.026667+08:00","text":"現在它的租金、押金跟未來整個移轉部分產生問題，我舉個例子，比方有些案件，你要怎麼分配給這6家你們現在講的民間……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:26:25.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:26:28.260000+08:00","text":"六都一共90家業者。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:26:28.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:26:29.393333+08:00","text":"你們怎麼分配？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:26:30.004444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:26:33.393333+08:00","text":"有些案件比較好、有些案件比較不好，你們怎麼分配？","quality":1},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:26:33.826667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:27:07.393333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實我們在前天已經開始啟動轉銜的平臺，當然首先是我們在住都中心網站有開通一個需求協助登記的表單，房東可以上網填這個表單，上面就會有所有可以服務的業者名單，第一個，他可以自己選要找誰服務；第二個，如果他沒有特別偏好哪一家業者，我們會依照沒有特別偏好的這些房東的順序，就依照業者的順序輪配。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:27:07.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:27:13.274286+08:00","text":"所以這個部分的制度都已經建立起來，而且運作了兩天，目前非常順暢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:27:13.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:27:15.021538+08:00","text":"好，謝謝花董事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:27:15.175385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:27:31.260000+08:00","text":"我最後問你一個問題，我們是相信政府，才有這麼多的房客、房東加入這樣的專案，最後我請教，你們未來針對這家公司有沒有處罰的機制？","quality":1},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:27:32.021538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:27:43.260000+08:00","text":"因為寄居蟹之前的負責人已經表示無法營運，所以我們第一個優先是保障房東、房客的權益來執行這個服務約轉過去……","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:27:43.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:27:45.406154+08:00","text":"你過去有對它進行財務查核嗎？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:27:45.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:27:46.360000+08:00","text":"有沒有處罰機制？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:27:47.321905+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:28:15.417143+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，本質上我們當然都會做業者的評鑑，但是因為所有業者內部的財務狀況基本上已經不是我們只是執行包租代管業務底下……我們能夠查的範圍有限，特別是它的董事長私人在外的另外行為，更不涉及包租代管業務本身，這個部分我們在實務上面確實沒有權力去查核。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:28:16.287273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:28:20.406154+08:00","text":"還是要拜託董事長，它是特許行業，所以政府還是有監管責任。是。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:28:20.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:28:30.393333+08:00","text":"現在看到這麼多的受害者組成自救會，希望董事長一定要儘速解決相關的問題，確保房東、房客以及整體租屋市場的安全。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2026-08-12T09:28:30.393333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:28:31.393333+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"花董事長敬群","start":"2026-08-12T09:28:30.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T09:28:31.310000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T09:28:31.810000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T09:28:35.524286+08:00","text":"下一位請許忠信委員發言質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}