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邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告軍人薪資待遇結構現行做法檢討及未來調整規劃並備質詢國防部部長顧立雄支援規劃司司長藍靜婷報告委員盧美玲等18人質詢均由國防部部長顧立雄軍備局局長林文祥軍醫局副局長陳元浩戰略規劃司司長黃文綺"},{"start":1609.077,"end":1625.007,"text":"陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長李慶然資通電軍指揮部參謀長周文祥及國家中山科學研究院院長李世強等即席答覆決定已登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束"},{"start":1625.667,"end":1626.208,"text":"現在請議事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":1648.835,"end":1660.445,"text":"報告事項 邀請外交部部長林佳龍國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告美中領導人再次電話通靈後對國際秩序及區域情勢之發展並被質詢 宣讀完畢我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹羅美玲委員以及外交部林佳龍林部長"},{"start":1677.798,"end":1699.927,"text":"亞東太平洋司 林昭鴻 林司長亞西籍非洲司 陳永柏 陳副司長歐洲司 黃君耀 黃司長拉美籍加勒比海司 鄭麗成 鄭司長北美司 王良玉 王司長條約法律司 李憲章 李司長國際組織司 孫簡元 孫司長"},{"start":1705.929,"end":1724.864,"text":"國際合作及經濟事務司陳靜一陳副司長國際傳播司張秀珍張司長研究設計會柯良瑞柯主任公眾外交協調會蕭光偉蕭執行長非政府組織國際事務會江振偉江"},{"start":1733.892,"end":1753.058,"text":"他執行長台灣日本關係協會張仁久張秘書長領事事務局鄭振勇鄭局長還有國家安全局蔡明彥蔡局長張元斌張副局長"},{"start":1761.584,"end":1774.751,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部國家安全局報告美中領導人在次電話通聯以後對國際秩序以及區域情勢之發展並被質詢首先邀請外交部林部長上台報告主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好"},{"start":1786.192,"end":1803.635,"text":"那承蒙貴會邀請外交部前來就美中領導人再次通聯後對國際秩序及區域情勢發展進行專題報告以下請就本部說明進行不吝指教那首先是有關於川習通話的內容"},{"start":1804.821,"end":1819.003,"text":"跟過程那川普總統在美東時間11月24日上午與中國國家主席習近平通話這是雙方於10月30日韓國釜山會晤之後再度的互動那川普總統會後"},{"start":1820.345,"end":1839.038,"text":"在他的Truth Social發文說明雙方通話談及到俄烏芬太尼及農產品的採購並稱將接受習近平邀請於明年4月訪問北京以及習近平同年稍後訪美進行國事訪問等相關發文並沒有提及台灣議題"},{"start":1840.439,"end":1862.05,"text":"川普總統之後在11月25日在空軍一號受訪的時候表示與習近平談話內容以貿易議題為主特別就中國加速並擴大採購美國農產品提出要求那麼美中的互動進入暫緩期但是川普政府也展現對台政策立場的延續"},{"start":1863.359,"end":1883.678,"text":"美國財政部長Scott Besson在11月25日接受專訪時表示這次通話是川普與釜山領袖會晤之後滿30日主動發起顯示雙邊領導人維持穩定互動管道並指中國的大豆採購進度如期未來三年半至少購買8750萬公噸"},{"start":1887.381,"end":1892.832,"text":"那貝森特財長另外也形容當前美中是處於為期一年的暫緩期"},{"start":1894.437,"end":1922.402,"text":"那雖然競爭屬於長期的常態然而領袖層級可以直接通話也有助於避免情勢失控他並認為美中領袖來年渴望舉行最多四場的會晤包括川普總統預計赴北京進行國事訪問習近平亦將回訪美國並出席於佛羅里達州舉行的G20的峰會此外川普可能在11月前往中國深圳出席APEC會議"},{"start":1923.862,"end":1937.798,"text":"針對主持人表示美中針對這次談話的詮釋稍有不同北京更著重在烏克蘭及台灣議題貝森特財長則明確重申美國對台立場沒有改變"},{"start":1938.956,"end":1967.455,"text":"那麼川普總統在與習近平通話之後不久即主動致電日本首相高士早苗向其說明前述通話的重點並與高士首相就強化美日同盟印太地區情勢以及各共同面臨的挑戰交換意見並表示願隨時接聽高士首相的來電至於媒體近日報導川普總統與高士首相通話時曾委婉建議其在台灣相關"},{"start":1970.422,"end":1985.556,"text":"公開表述上避免過度刺激中國以免危及當前美中貿易緩和氣氛這個部分呢日本官房長官沐元忍在11月27日下午的記者會已經明確予以否認強調相關報導並不符合事實"},{"start":1988.078,"end":2015.594,"text":"那面對近期東亞安全情勢的變化以及中國以經貿與軍事行動對日本施壓我們可以觀察到美國政府已持續透過公開聲明展現維護印太和平穩定的堅定立場除了美國駐日大使George Grass在11月15日發文強調美日同盟與G7夥伴關係皆堅定支持台海和平穩定反對任何企圖以武力脅迫"},{"start":2016.474,"end":2034.741,"text":"方式單方面改變區域的現狀而美國國務院的副發言人Tommy Peacock也於11月21日重申美日同盟是印太和平安全的基石並明確反對在台海東海或南海以武力脅迫方式改變現況的任何行為"},{"start":2035.521,"end":2058.974,"text":"而在台美安全合作方面近期也持續取得務實且正向的進展川普政府11月間普宣布新一輪的對台軍售提供我國所需要的防衛性武器具體落實根據台灣關係法及六點保證的對台安全承諾也彰顯美方對台海和平穩定其台灣自我防禦能力的高度重視上週"},{"start":2060.58,"end":2077.929,"text":"賴總統宣布政府將於未來8年投入新台幣1兆2500億元的國防特別預算以持續強化嚇阻和不對稱戰力向國際社會展現台灣堅定守護國家維護現狀的決心與意志對此美國在台協會台北辦事處"},{"start":2080.122,"end":2102.269,"text":"處長古麗妍於第一時間及代表美方表達歡迎強調此舉是強化嚇阻維護台海和平穩定的重要進展也是對全球和平與繁榮做出的關鍵而且必要的投資那再度重申支持台灣是美國跨黨派長期優先的事項美國將支持台灣加速獲得關鍵不對稱戰力以強化嚇阻能力"},{"start":2103.129,"end":2123.863,"text":"以符合《台灣關係法》與數十年來美國的一貫承諾並指出確保台海分歧能在無脅迫情況下以和平方式解決與全世界利害攸關國務院事後也接續地重申上述立場除了行政部門之外美國國會兩院關鍵委員會及多位"},{"start":2124.884,"end":2133.901,"text":"要的意願 亦公開肯定我國再次展現台灣治理提升防衛能力的決心並凸顯台灣是共同強化區域嚇阻的關鍵夥伴"},{"start":2136.377,"end":2157.419,"text":"那麼我國的因應作為方面在釜山川習會以來美中軍持續營造雙邊關係的正面氣氛並展現擴大溝通的意願藉由持續互動為未來訪問累積條件然而中國能否如期如實履行相關協議與承諾仍是川普總統所最關切的重點"},{"start":2158.3,"end":2179.074,"text":"也是影響美中關係走向的關鍵變數本部將持續密切掌握美中高層互動發展的情形並與美方保持緊密的聯繫美國近期作為一顯示依然延續對區域盟邦及夥伴的重視支持與緊密的協調台美亦持續在《台灣關係法》與六項保證的穩固基礎上"},{"start":2180.095,"end":2201.408,"text":"緊密的合作以強化我國自我防衛跟嚇阻能力共同來捍衛台海及印太區域的和平與穩定與繁榮另外一方面中方在川習通話之後發布的新聞聲明中也再度蓄意的片面扭曲我國主權地位與二戰的史實針對中方近期頻繁藉由與他國互動"},{"start":2202.168,"end":2231.516,"text":"之後的聲明以及聯合國等國際場域扭曲二戰史實誤導國際視聽以強化其台灣問題內政化的論據企圖為對台動武尋求虛假的合法性的一個惡劣的意圖以及長期透過扭曲跟誤用聯大第2758號決議阻擾我國參與聯合國體系及其他國際組織的行徑外交部也將持續與民主夥伴共同來反制"},{"start":2232.656,"end":2239.219,"text":"對貴委員會日前通過的決議明確公開駁斥中國對聯大275號決議的錯誤詮釋本人亦盼切此機會表達誠摯的感謝最後"},{"start":2246.311,"end":2269.277,"text":"那麼川普政府在尋求美中關係穩定與管控戰略競爭之際多次與高層官員公開重申對台立場沒有改變並以軍售等具體行動持續支持我國自我防衛能力的建構以及肯定我國強化國防的決心與作為對維護區域和平與穩定的現況具有正面的意義"},{"start":2270.157,"end":2281.244,"text":"那麼特別是參眾兩院無異議全票通過的有關於台灣這個保證實施法"},{"start":2282.079,"end":2293.003,"text":"那這個川普總統也正式的簽署公布這對於美台交往的進一步的深化那麼以及正常化是一個非常重要的一個簽署的法案我們也會就是積極跟美方跟這個"},{"start":2302.426,"end":2328.16,"text":"不只是川普政府還有參眾兩院為增進台美的一個互動能夠進一步來加強彼此的關係那台美之間一向互信友好那溝通管道暢通並持續就美中互動與區域情勢保持密切的協調未來本部將在既有的基礎上持續關注美中關係發展對區域安全的影響"},{"start":2328.82,"end":2339.61,"text":"也進一步深化與美國和其他理念相近國家的互信與合作積極維護我國的主權與安全來增進國家利益與人民福祉那麼以上報告 謝謝接著我們邀請國安局蔡局長進行報告"},{"start":2360.512,"end":2382.085,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席 各位委員 先進 各位女士 各位先生 大家好非常感謝大院安排本局列席我們今天的專題報告以下大概就針對川喜通話之後美中關係的要況以及整體情勢的分析提出本局的一些觀察 跟各位委員說明如此以下大概分為三個主要的重點 逐一跟大家做報告"},{"start":2382.745,"end":2400.26,"text":"那第一部分是有關於美中關係的要況那我們分兩點來說明第一點就是美中透過雙方的一個對話來管理彼此的一個爭端那在中共部分因為習近平專權獨善所以美國在跟中方進行談判過程當中一直都把習近平當成是主要的談判對手"},{"start":2401.181,"end":2425.039,"text":"所以我們可以看到雙方的領導人在今年的10月30號釜山的會談之後緊接著又在11月24號進行元首的通話那主要的目的就是希望能夠來確立兩國關係的基調管控分歧那根據美國的財長貝森的說法在明年美中兩國領導人可能會有四次的會面那美方也期待透過這些對話的過程可以來穩定美中兩國整體的關係"},{"start":2427.16,"end":2453.241,"text":"第二點我們觀察是美中在對話過程當中也各自來表述彼此關切的議題跟立場川普在跟習近平的電話會談之後也對外表示他跟習近平在通話過程當中有去觸及到俄烏的戰事芬太尼的議題以及大豆還有其他農產品進口等等的議題美方把主要的通話的重點放在經貿以及烏克蘭情勢而且也沒有提到台灣的問題"},{"start":2454.262,"end":2483.802,"text":"中共的外交部在新聞稿的對外說明當中沒有去提到美方所關切的經貿事宜但是另外就俄烏戰士表達他的立場同時也單方面的來宣稱在美中的歷史合作過程當中曾經共抗法西斯跟軍國主義以及也表述了中國有關於台灣主權的敘事有關於美中在會談過程當中各自關切的議題以及相關立場的差異請各位看到在我們的副表當中有做一個完整的整理"},{"start":2484.943,"end":2510.883,"text":"第二部分是有關於整體情勢發展的評估這部分我們提出了四點的總體觀察足以跟大家做個說明第二部分是在美中的角力部分我們認為角力有稍微的暫緩但是並沒有改變兩國競爭的本質我們看到在今年的十月份川習會之後美中雖然調整了他們經貿制裁的措施但是到目前為止並沒有完全的來落實雙方的共識"},{"start":2511.744,"end":2523.917,"text":"那在稀土的部分中共雖然暫停了對關鍵礦產出口的管制一年但是呢相關的出口還是要經過中共監管部門的一個審批而且美中也沒有簽署任何的稀土供應的協議"},{"start":2525.307,"end":2552.94,"text":"另外在科技管制的部分那美國也沒有同意對中共來出售高階的AI晶片在農產品的採購的部分那中共採購美國的大豆的數量到目前為止只有兩百多萬噸也遠不及美方希望在今年年底可以達到一千兩百萬噸的一個目標在地緣競爭的部分那美國關切的是中共在台海跟南海的脅迫的行為但中共則堅稱他擁有絕對的權力來維護他在相關地區的國家安全利益"},{"start":2553.9,"end":2579.286,"text":"第二個判斷主要是針對中日關係我們看到中共持續的對日本來施壓但是也可以看到過程當中來避免中日關係還有整體情勢的失控中共為了來迫使日本的首相高士早苗撤回涉台的言論一方面發布了旅遊的警示停止部分的航線航班暫緩了重啟水產進口的一些措施同時也渲染了共軍在黃海渤海的射擊活動刻意來製造兩國關係的緊張氣氛"},{"start":2581.827,"end":2599.397,"text":"但另一方面我們也可以看到中共駐日大使跟日本的外務省次官在11月25號也舉行了會談所以從過程當中可以看到雙方並沒有切斷對話的一個管道那同時在中國大陸內部我們也沒有看到有進行比較大規模的反日民族主義的一個活動"},{"start":2600.678,"end":2629.373,"text":"第三半段主要是針對日本的對台政策我們看到日本堅定的對台的立場已經獲得了美盟公開的聲援日本高市首相持續的表達他願意透過對話的方式來推進跟中共的關係但是他也堅持不會撤回先前涉台的言論我們也發現到在日本的內閣會議11月25號的答辯書當中也重申了對台海議題相關的一個堅定的立場是不會改變的"},{"start":2630.054,"end":2637.767,"text":"所以在美國的國務院以及駐日大使包括川普本人也主動的致電給高市首相來確認會持續的來推動"},{"start":2640.253,"end":2666.384,"text":"美日同盟的緊密合作關係同時也看到了在南韓 印度 英國 德國 法國等等元首在G20的峰會 場邊會晤當中也跟高市首相來會談怎麼樣來實現自由開放印太的一個理念同時美盟也很多國家表達對於台海核穩的重視跟支持相關的一個發言以及跨國的聯合聲明請看到我們在副表當中所整理的一些細項"},{"start":2667.825,"end":2692.038,"text":"那第四部分我們的判斷是有關於國際社會對於台海核穩高度的關注那同時也希望台灣能夠展現自我防衛的決心那這部分美國因為對台海問題非常的重視所以國會已經通過了好處法案把台灣納入加速武器出口的清單那另外川普政府也陸續的公布對台的軍售案包括3.3億美金的戰機零組件案以及6.9億美金的防空飛彈系統案"},{"start":2693.018,"end":2721.884,"text":"那此外我們政府提出的守護民主台灣國安行動方案也獲得國際正面的一個回應跟支持那重整起來包括美國國務院美國在台協會美國參議院軍委會的主席參議院情報委員會的主席以及德國駐台代表也都公開的表示樂見台灣能夠提增國防特別預算那強調這樣的一個動作對於確保區域和平穩定是非常重要的一步也稱台灣為國際社會非常重要可信賴的一個夥伴"},{"start":2722.604,"end":2740.92,"text":"最後一部分是有關於捷運整體的評估我們認為美中戰略競爭的格局沒有改變川普跟習近平增加互動來管控雙方的一個關係以及避免情勢失控在日中的關係的部分日本跟中共對於涉台議題各持立場但是也看到他們避免情勢的升溫"},{"start":2741.721,"end":2767.497,"text":"那國際社會則高度的關注印太的秩序跟台海的核穩那也希望台灣可以扮演區域安全共同維護者的角色所以本區會持續的來掌握各國政策的走向跟區域情勢的脈動相助政府及時的決策跟風險應處來確為我們的國家安全利益以上的報告我們敬請各位委員先進不定指導 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在補充介紹陳俊宇委員"},{"start":2770.982,"end":2778.201,"text":"請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有那我們議事錄確定"},{"start":2784.842,"end":2799.51,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":2809.949,"end":2814.695,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安局蔡局長請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席 羅委員長"},{"start":2821.019,"end":2847.644,"text":"局長早 局長這個10月底繼這個釜山慘喜會之後呢11月14號川普跟習近平呢再次的這個通電話就是說用電話會談之後呢其實兩方就像剛剛局長所提到其實他們對於這個發文的內容其實是顯然有很大的差異就是各自表述那局長剛剛你有所提到就是說像川普他"},{"start":2848.805,"end":2863.938,"text":"這個推文就是會談之後他的推文其實最主要是提到的就是烏鱷的問題還有這個經貿的這個磋商可是我們他是完全沒有提到台灣的議題可是我們看到中國他不但是沒有提及這個經貿的議題還強調就是說台灣回歸是戰後國際秩序重要組成的部分還提到就是說美方理解"},{"start":2873.406,"end":2890.412,"text":"這個台灣的問題是對中國的這個重要性那當然在第一時間不管是行政院或是外交部還有陸委會其實我們第一時間都有做出了這個反擊像左院長他有提到了中華民國台灣是一個完完全全主權獨立的國家2300萬的國人沒有回歸的這個選項"},{"start":2897.094,"end":2901.416,"text":"所以我想請教局長這會不會是就是繼這個中共扭曲了這個二戰文件還有2758號決議文之後呢會不會就是未來一個他這個當然就是認知作戰會不會回歸啦或者是說戰後次序論這個部分會變成以後續戰的一個主軸面對中國這種"},{"start":2919.942,"end":2936.697,"text":"言論他現在提出來了台灣這個回歸的問題還有這個戰後次序的這個議題會不會就是成為他新一波的認知作戰的主軸那我們要如何防止中國這一類的輿論的這個操作請問局長"},{"start":2937.638,"end":2957.687,"text":"我想這部分我們確實要特別來關注那今年大概中共的涉台論述它主要重點是圍繞在所謂的三個八十週年的一個相關的論點那也就是所謂的抗戰勝利八十週年聯合國成立八十週年以及台灣光復八十週年那相關論述大概有兩個目的一個目的是去抹滅中華民國在二戰的一個貢獻"},{"start":2958.427,"end":2979.018,"text":"那第二部分是在凸顯中國在二戰之後他在所謂的國際秩序的重塑過程當中扮演一個重要的角色那我們可以看到這兩個論述事實上跟國際的事實發展是完全背道而馳的那也沒有去正視到台海現狀目前唯一的政治現實就是台灣跟中國互不隸屬的政治現實"},{"start":2979.798,"end":3006.593,"text":"那台灣跟國際社會要維持台海現狀所要維護的就是台灣跟中國互不隸屬的這個政治現實所以可能後續我們還是要去注意到中國在這一波的涉台論述的操作過程當中那會不會再透過這樣子扭曲或是故意的去誤解相關的國際的文件或條約來強化他剛剛的相關的一個論述來延伸到今年下半年對於三個八十週年操作的一個"},{"start":3007.273,"end":3022.061,"text":"基調跟主軸那這部分我們會繼續來注意那假如有在網路上的認知作戰操作的話那當然也跟委員報告過我們的系統都有完整的一個查找跟溯源的一個機制那會做必要的即時通報相關部會來做事實的澄清"},{"start":3022.745,"end":3029.451,"text":"是 我們也是擔心是說他這個言論這些所謂的認知作戰會變成就是說像香港之前有所謂的回歸他現在把台灣也認為說台灣就是戰後之後的一個回歸的這個問題這部分可能我們相關的國安單位要特別來做這個留意那再來還有就是說對於這個高市早苗在11月26號他有表示"},{"start":3049.907,"end":3073.765,"text":"日本已經在舊金山合約中放棄對台灣的所有權利跟許可權因此沒有立場認定台灣的法律地位可是這個論述好像又惹毛了這個中國像這個中國的這個發言人發言人毛寧他就在28號的時候就有提到了中方從來沒有接受過這個舊金山合約像這新華社他在12月1號也有發文他是強調舊金山合約違反了1942年的聯合國家"},{"start":3078.849,"end":3096.927,"text":"宣言中聯合國這個國家宣言中關於禁止以這個敵國單獨構合的這個這個規定所以這種種的這個論述他說他們是不承認這個舊金山合約那當然我看看最近這幾天其實"},{"start":3098.268,"end":3104.549,"text":"國內有很多的這個講法就被提出來了說你中國你不承認舊金商合約難道我們要回到馬關條約嗎類似這種論述出來所以我不曉得我們不是很清楚是中國對這個部分的論述的這個操作局長你是怎麼看呢你是怎麼看這個他一直他從過去到現在其實已經無數次在強調就是說他們其實不接受舊金商合約"},{"start":3127.293,"end":3144.897,"text":"我想跟委員做個說明中國在理解整個相關的對台政策它有它自己的一套論述也就是一中的原則當然對於一些國際的條約或國際的理解還有共識它就站在自己的立場來做相關有利於自己的詮釋以及片段式的來選擇相關的條約來支撐自己的論點"},{"start":3148.078,"end":3173.359,"text":"那所以我想跟委員說明的是事實上沒有必要去陷入中國的這一種相關法理的與會的爭辯回到剛剛跟委員說明的重點是在於說就政治現實來講那台海的現狀就是兩岸互不隸屬那這是一個政治的事實那中國再去找相關的對他有利的相關的條約或是相關的文件來證明他的立場也不會改變到目前台海"},{"start":3174.802,"end":3183.554,"text":"兩岸互不隸屬的這個政治現實所以我想不必流入他的相關的這種法理的語彙而且是片段式的去找出有利於他自己的論點"},{"start":3185.043,"end":3213.343,"text":"是 當然因為它以中國來講的話它是竭盡所能的去扭曲所有的這些國際上的這個合約只是說我們隨時就是要做出一些澄清跟一些說法尤其是其實兩國是互不律屬的這個論述必須要做這個加強對 OK好 謝謝 謝謝局長局長先請回再來我們請外交部林部長有請林部長"},{"start":3218.928,"end":3236.501,"text":"委員好部長好 部長您剛剛在這個專題報告裡面有提到就是說上個禮拜賴清德總統宣布政府將在未來的八年要投入新台幣一兆兩千五百億元作為國防特別預算那對AIT或是美國國務院或是說美國的這個眾議兩院的議員其實都表達了這個支持"},{"start":3243.286,"end":3262.223,"text":"那尤其是12月1號,我看到很多的美國的國會兩院的議員,其實都有在推特上發文,表示對這個預算、特別預算的支持。而AIT也認為說,這是對全球和平與繁榮作出的關鍵,而且有必要的投資。"},{"start":3263.304,"end":3289.913,"text":"12月1號大家都樂見其成大家都覺得說台灣這個是展示了這個要取得關鍵不對稱作戰能力的一個很明確的決心可是12月2號的中午在立法院的程序委員會然後在野黨就把這個特別預算給封殺了所以我們美國盟友會如何看待我們立法院組黨國防預算的這個行為"},{"start":3291.173,"end":3319.235,"text":"有嗎 有接到任何的電話嗎當然立法院沒有把它排入議程這個當然會給國際一個錯誤的訊息當然政府也要積極跟在野黨在座溝通我們也期待盡快能夠進入程序委員會然後去審查預算 來加速通過"},{"start":3320.578,"end":3346.526,"text":"OK 部長你剛才說要跟在野黨做積極的溝通在那之前的話我們有做過類似的溝通如果說已經溝通完畢還刻意的阻擋的話這是怎麼樣的一個心態呢真的是會讓國際盟友會認為說台灣真的是沒有自我強化防衛的決心這個有事先跟在野黨溝通過嗎"},{"start":3348.291,"end":3363.966,"text":"因為這是屬於國防部所提出的預算我們外交部就全力配合至於說對外的溝通我們也會跟國防部來這個進一步協調因為我是看到您的報告裡面有特別提到大家都"},{"start":3364.526,"end":3383.982,"text":"美方呢真的是對於我們這樣子就是說有編列這個特別預算其實是對台灣是讚許也表示表達了這個歡迎那也知道就是說12月2號就是昨天政區委員會呢就在野黨就封殺了所以這個部分的話我想跟在野黨要有更多的這個溝通"},{"start":3385.183,"end":3400.272,"text":"那我也希望就是在野黨研討了解就是說其實台灣處在這種國際動盪的這個局勢尤其台灣的地理位置其實一直都是處於比較危險的這個地理位置所以我們就覺得說我們有一個敵國在虎視眈眈我們自我防衛這個能力呢其實這是應該是要大家要團結一致來做支持的"},{"start":3410.137,"end":3433.948,"text":"所以我們也希望就是說這部分的話不管外交部也好 國防部也好就是說我們的這個國安單位都一起要來努力然後讓促成這個這個國防預算能夠輸你的這個過關財政委員報告不管是美國對台的軍售已經有正式通過還有有關於台灣保證實施法案的簽署這個"},{"start":3435.849,"end":3461.639,"text":"對於過去有一些人在質疑台美關係或者是川普政府對台灣是不是有不同的做法我想這個也都可以已經很好的去澄清台美關係還是相當的穩定而且溝通很順暢未來也會大家攜手合作在國防方面去加強我們這個自我防衛的能力跟決心"},{"start":3462.523,"end":3490.035,"text":"OK 部長剛有提到確實是最近我也看到在野黨也刻意的操作這個不信任美國就是以美論的這個部分我想這個部分的話真的作為一個不管在野黨也好或是人黨我想對外應該是要團結一致我想說這個行為是不是讓真的是讓國際友人也在看笑話了面對自己國家的這個國防的這個安全居然是用這種操弄方式真的是很不可取好 以上謝謝謝謝"},{"start":3493.776,"end":3498.22,"text":"謝謝 接下來請陳俊宇委員上台諮詢好 謝謝趙偉 我們先請我們國安局蔡局長請蔡局長好 局長早"},{"start":3518.643,"end":3539.253,"text":"在上個月那個紐西蘭海軍的軍艦通行通過我們這個台灣海峽的過程當中不但遭到中國的這個艦艇和飛機持續的監控那甚至有這個戰機進行所謂的這個模擬攻擊那這個議題在前天星期一的時候我也曾經跟國防部我們顧部長討論過"},{"start":3541.074,"end":3569.485,"text":"除了要持續掌握周邊的情勢以外我們也想了解國安局對於這個情況怎麼評估共軍這些行為的相關意涵因為我們中關過去這幾年不論是歐洲或印太地區的這些友好國家只要有美軍以外的軍艦通過台灣海峽的時候通常共軍也都會出動海空軍來做應對但是從今年初以來共軍所採取的反應"},{"start":3570.425,"end":3598.684,"text":"似乎是越來越強烈那不但增加附近空域的活動還會搭配實施聯合戰備警巡那除了反制措施以外更是強硬的這個法律戰的作為那我想我們從近年來的這個相關案例來看中共對於外國軍艦通過台海所採取的應對措施是否有增強的趨勢那對於我們如何強化與友邦"},{"start":3599.504,"end":3622.232,"text":"相關的同盟國家共同因應的這個機制除了要降低風險更避免我方的這個管轄權受到侵蝕以外那這個部分我想請教局長您的看法您的評估為何謝委員提出對這問題的關切那管局這邊跟國防部我們有透過我們聯合行政的系統掌握外建跟共建在我們周邊水域活動的一個狀態"},{"start":3623.032,"end":3634.641,"text":"那以今年來講大概目前已經有8個國家有12次的通過台海的相關的一個活動那8個國家包括到的有美國日本加拿大澳洲紐西蘭"},{"start":3637.679,"end":3660.953,"text":"越南跟那個英國跟法國那12次裡面還有包括有兩次是聯合行動的包括美國跟那個英國的聯合行動那以及加拿大跟澳洲的聯合行動所以可以看得出來國際社會美國友盟對於台海區域的和平穩定非常的重視那也透過這一類的自由航行活動來表達他們具體的行動那中共在這一些外建"},{"start":3661.874,"end":3680.297,"text":"通過台海過程當中它基本的原則就是逢箭必更那一定會派出相關的對應的海上兵力來做必要的跟監的活動那另外有時候也會動員剛剛委員所提到的空中的兵力來做一些模擬的攻擊來表示它在台海地區軍事上的一個相關的一個軍事的存在跟主導權"},{"start":3681.078,"end":3700.338,"text":"那這部分也跟委員報告我們跟國際友盟也都有一些相關的情資交換那包括在外建通過台海過程當中共建的活動型態我們跟國際友方都有一些相關的情資交流那讓國際友方在進入到台海周邊水域的時候大概都可以掌握到中共活動的一些相關的樣態"},{"start":3700.979,"end":3717.304,"text":"那從剛剛跟委員報告的過程當中你可以發現到今年有8個國家跟12次的通過台海活動那代表這些國際友門並沒有因為中共的相關逢見必更的動作而有所退卻那持續的表達他們對於台海核文的重視好 那應該我們國安局都在掌握當中"},{"start":3719.385,"end":3745.737,"text":"另外在上週有一篇報載內容寫到中共近來在中國駐東京大使館增加國台辦官員的進駐對外雖然維持外交官身份但實際上並非單純負責外交的工作除了監控在日本的台灣僑民還有民眾還有商務客群同時也對日本涉台活動的情資進行收集及回報"},{"start":3746.377,"end":3772.677,"text":"甚至在台灣觀光客偏好的這個泰國、曼谷還有清邁等地也都逐步地納入這樣的一個任務編制那我想請教局長有關這一篇報導的內容是否為真那國安局有沒有相關的這個掌握而這個國台辦由這個外交系統把持與這個駐外管處配合的這種相關的行為對台灣來說是否有任何的風險存在"},{"start":3774.558,"end":3797.213,"text":"對 剛剛委員提到了 事實上中共的駐外管處它確實有時候會有安排一些涉台系統或處理涉台業務的人力那以委員剛剛所提到的特定國家來講我們長年的觀察大概平均都會有兩位到四位的中共人員在駐管裡面負責的是涉台的業務那這個部分我們都有相關的掌握那也跟國際友方有交換相關的一個情資"},{"start":3797.933,"end":3821.233,"text":"那委員所提到的是應該要注意的是中共這些駐外人員負責涉台業務的那會不會在當地透過一些民間的團體或組織那來分化我們的橋界那或是來透過各種的接觸分化我們跟國際有我們官方或非官方各種的往來活動那這部分我們要是有一手的情志的話也會跟我們的外館的"},{"start":3822.134,"end":3849.296,"text":"相關外交部的官員來做相關情質的交流那一起來評估相關的狀況也做必要回應的一個動作我們也希望說一定要保護我們國人的一個生命的安全那在這個美中對抗的格局下美日安保和台海安全無疑是這個目前的焦點那我們從國安局的這個報告當中也看到近年來這個中共為了讓高市首相撤回這個"},{"start":3850.177,"end":3869.781,"text":"所謂台海有事說透過各種層面的施壓手段可以製造兩國的這種緊張的氣氛面對中國一連串的這種文攻武嚇日本政府不但堅定立場也引發日本社會高度的一個反感衝突似乎還沒有緩解的這種趨勢那在"},{"start":3873.042,"end":3889.087,"text":"這種情況之下我們推測接下來中國可能會擴大軍事的威脅再次發動大規模的軍演由於共軍在年底通常會有考核演訓確實也不排除會在特定的時間將這些例行性的演訓拼湊來發動"},{"start":3892.748,"end":3907.796,"text":"就此我想請教局長依照我們目前的掌握共軍在年底發動軍演的機率高不高地點會選擇是在台海或是東海搭配的宣傳站主軸會不會又是訴諸於民族主義"},{"start":3909.006,"end":3936.964,"text":"跟委員說明一下委員的問題意識裡面大概有兩個部分一個部分是中日的部分確實像委員所提到的中共持續的透過複合式的威脅在對日本加壓剛剛在口報過程當中也跟各位委員先進說明的是中共在加壓過程當中它還是保留了對日本溝通的管道所以可見它還是有在做某種程度的風險控管避免情勢失控或升溫這大概是第一部分跟委員在進一步說明的"},{"start":3937.404,"end":3952.276,"text":"那第二部分委員關切的是在年底之前那會不會有一些比較大型的軍事演訓活動那我記得在過去也曾經跟委員針對這個議題來做討論因為每年大概在十月到十二月的階段就是他年度的考核的一個演訓的一個熱"},{"start":3953.837,"end":3981.913,"text":"很熱門的一個季節所以中共只要把它例行性的包括聯合戰略警訓或是包括到它的沿海長訓的這些活動做個組合再給個特定的演習科目的話它就可以變成是一個對台針對性的演習所以這部分我們確實要料底重寬持續來注意有沒有相關活動的變化那也跟委員說明一下目前中共的水上兵力目前為止今天早上為止它有四個編隊是在西太平洋周邊水域活動的那我們都有嚴密的監控"},{"start":3982.273,"end":4005.803,"text":"那也跟國防部還有其他我們的國安情報機關會注意相關的狀況假如有必要的話也會啟動我們跟國際我們情資交流跟合作包括科技情報的交換那避免中共在這個階段委員所擔心的年底之前有任何新興的動作好 謝謝局長那局長您先請回好 謝謝委員我們再請我們家榮部長請林部長"},{"start":4009.349,"end":4032.731,"text":"部長早 委員好好 部長延續剛才這個中日之間的關係的議題我們從這個高市首相上個月提出這個台海有事說那到上個禮拜11月26號引用舊金山這個合約的內容表示日本已經放棄對台灣所有權利那無權認定台灣法律地位這樣的說法正是這個台灣定位"},{"start":4033.712,"end":4058.894,"text":"台灣地位未定論的核心隨之當然也引起中國外交部的強烈反彈剛剛美林委員也大概詢問了我們蔡局長我想請教部長如何解讀高市首相舊金山合約的相關意涵是否也能夠藉此來判斷日本將定調台灣問題國際化同時也否定中共對台灣的相關敘事"},{"start":4061.08,"end":4079.234,"text":"對 我想因應中共的三個八十週年這個法律戰它背後當然是在鋪陳以武力犯台的法理基礎所以我想我們外交部在這一年來也積極在國際上除了去針對聯大2758號"},{"start":4082.276,"end":4098.108,"text":"我覺得一文的解釋 中共的扭曲跟我們的得到各友盟的支持以外就是針對這幾個涉及到包括舊金山合約的一個簽訂跟效力的問題"},{"start":4100.063,"end":4126.812,"text":"高市早苗首相在國會正式的對日本的立場很清楚的表達因為在舊金剛合約之後日本就放棄了對台灣的主權他也沒有這個地位去主張台灣這個主權的問題我想就這一點上當然也某種程度來講為什麼引起中共這麼大的反彈"},{"start":4128.035,"end":4142.406,"text":"那就代表就是在這個之前其實中華人民共和國他跟台灣他並沒有在國際法上所謂的一個他這個擁有台灣的這個主權這一點當然又刺痛了中共方面那對於台灣來講我們中華民國就是台灣這個在整個後來的政治發展裡面"},{"start":4157.438,"end":4174.034,"text":"我們是有一套對於台灣地位的看法只有兩岸互不隸屬之外呢台灣經過一個民主化那中華民國這政府的一個在台灣的一個做一個主權國家他具備"},{"start":4175.629,"end":4184.179,"text":"一切的條件以這個方式來就是進行對於我們台灣一個民主化主權屬於國民全體這個論述是"},{"start":4188.72,"end":4210.045,"text":"不是停留在1951年舊金山合約簽訂的當時所以這個我們也不是說就支持所謂台灣地位未定論那個是那個時空環境下有這樣的一個國際的條約是有其效力那所以對於先前中共或是有一些人所主張的開鑼宣言"},{"start":4210.985,"end":4228.215,"text":"以及波斯坦公告那樣一個政治性的宣言我想很清楚的舊金山合約在這個問題上已經做了一個條約有效率的一個決定那日本是遵守的"},{"start":4228.968,"end":4254.064,"text":"好那我再一個最後一個問題我想部長您7月曾經突破這個相關的限制率團訪問日本那日本方面在9月有農林水產副大臣那10月有環境副大臣來台訪問再加上一則是在2017年曾有這個總務副大臣來訪那如果在中日緊張可能要持續一年才能穩定的情況下我想請教部長"},{"start":4254.764,"end":4268.078,"text":"那未來一年內我們要推動台日雙方高層互訪的這個機會就共同關心的相關議題要進行交流還有沒有可能在升高層級有相關的部會所長會有來訪的情形"},{"start":4270.543,"end":4290.63,"text":"我們當然是期待台日的一個關係特別是往來能夠正常化所以我想包括我們台美關係最近大家看到川普簽署的台灣保證實施法案"},{"start":4291.929,"end":4318.52,"text":"那同樣台日之間的關係也逐步建立起正常的互動所以有關於過去可能一些自我的設限那經過我想這個高市早苗首相他的領導那我們當然也會期待台日之間的關係可以正常的往來那我們期待啦好 謝謝部長跟局長的答詢謝謝"},{"start":4323.782,"end":4326.183,"text":"接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢謝謝主席那先有請局長謝謝請蔡局長"},{"start":4349.256,"end":4367.797,"text":"謝主席 沈委員早許長好這個我前面先問一個問題就是說因為之前國安單位有特別針對一些有資安風險的APP然後有公布我相信接下來這一個不管是速發布或者說內政部跟打詐有關的應該也會有所回應"},{"start":4368.918,"end":4392.952,"text":"所以我覺得國安局起這個頭我覺得是蠻重要的因為告訴大家有這個資安的疑慮我想知道的就是接下來因為所謂的資安疑慮不一定是跟中國有關它有時候可能是別的APP但是可能有中資在背後這個挹注又有可能說可能中國它今天是跟第三方的廣告公司透過它然後去買這些APP相關取得的資料都有可能"},{"start":4394.052,"end":4421.167,"text":"剛好最近這個是11月的時候所發生的事情就是這個高德地圖高德地圖可以在台灣導航國台辦還特別強調它喜聞樂見因為現在越來越多人來使用的狀況之下第一個就是它對台灣的街景可以蒐集得更多這是第一點第二個就是因為這跟Google Map一樣你只要使用這些地圖基本上就一定可以它一定要取得你的定位不然它怎麼知道你要再往哪裡移動"},{"start":4421.867,"end":4437.356,"text":"所以你看它在這個右邊這邊我有截圖就是它在隱私權的這個部分它對於位置 瀏覽記錄等等之類的都會去取得所以它背後又有這一個中國國家航天局的這一個北斗系統然後後面又有阿里巴巴"},{"start":4437.856,"end":4463.734,"text":"所以基本上它跟這一個共產黨的關係是非常的密切我知道其實相關類似高德地圖的我看也不少很多我們一開始在挑選最嚴重的這期管的時候我們接下來的下一步會是什麼然後跟這種地圖相關的因為它現在還沒有累積到那麼高的使用但它一旦累積起來我們那時候再說有資安風險的時候怕又太晚不知道對於這方面目前國安局的規劃是什麼"},{"start":4465.007,"end":4480.719,"text":"這部分跟委員說明一下那就像委員剛一開始所提到的事實上本局對於中共製的這些APP還有包括我們前陣子針對中共的深層式AI語言模型都有做過相關的嚴密的一個治安的檢測那後面發現的一個問題就在於說"},{"start":4483.321,"end":4509.393,"text":"這些的軟體事實上都要求使用者過度的授權那來讓這些軟體可以來擷取使用者包括他的所在的位置相關的一個過去的一個通訊或是消費的習慣來蒐集相關資料那比較讓我們擔心的是這些資料因為會回送到他母公司在中國大陸的資料庫那再加上根據中國大陸的法律規範包括國家情報法國家安全法"},{"start":4509.693,"end":4538.311,"text":"那相關的企業個人都必須要把這些資料提供給政府相關部門來運用所以我們從這個角度來考量是認為說這些中國製的APP或軟體都有相當高的治安風險那雖然國安局不是業管機關但是基於國安的角度我們還是一波一波的把這些有治安風險的中製的產品來告訴社會大眾請大家進行必要的檢視那也跟委員說明事實上政府內部跨部會也有在討論後續下一步來怎麼來做進一步的規劃"},{"start":4539.111,"end":4554.484,"text":"那因為這部分還在內部包括法規的研議以及後續實際措施的一個評估那我不適合公開的說明但有在做下一步的行動的一個規劃跟評估沒問題因為剛剛這一個局長有提到我覺得有幾個關鍵第一個就是過度授權這是個問題"},{"start":4555.745,"end":4570.613,"text":"所以在這個不管是抖音等等之類它有過度授權它已經拿過多的根本就一些不相干的資料然後另外它又會有冒用的問題所以可能會被拿來詐騙什麼等等之類的但是因為我今天為什麼特別把高德地圖提出來就是因為"},{"start":4571.093,"end":4586.579,"text":"它不一定有過度授權的問題但它跟國安的風險卻特別的高因為如果譬如說你去回報說這個街景的問題又或者說你去回報國人的位置其實對共產黨來講能夠取得位置是非常重要的一件事所以它即使沒有到過度的授權"},{"start":4587.139,"end":4603.629,"text":"但它在第三個剛剛講國安相關的這一個它可能比其他的風險又來得更高所以我覺得這一方面有可能在下一波的時候我們或許也應該要考慮就是說這一類的APP所造成的風險跟前面公布那一波又不太一樣不一樣在哪裡可能也要跟國人說明"},{"start":4603.829,"end":4631.633,"text":"我想這大概有兩個層面的問題一個部分是關於這個APP或軟體本身的資安風險的問題但第二面向事實上也是剛剛跟委員說明跟報告的我們更關切的是在法治法規面事實上各國產製的這些資安通訊的軟體多少都有一些收集各自的問題但是在我們的一般的西方國家以及我們民主國家都有一些GDPR的對於各自保護的相關法律規範"},{"start":4632.333,"end":4653.473,"text":"可是在中國大陸來講它的法律規範反倒是授權政府可以去廣收或是要求個人企業來提供這些資訊供政府來運用那這是第二面向的問題是中國相關產製的APP的風險根源是在於對 它的國家法規的問題對 所以這個我就覺得說反正我們在接下來一定還會再遇到這類的問題那我們就再繼續持續的來關心這個議題謝謝"},{"start":4658.197,"end":4661.743,"text":"那接下來呢接下來是要問那個是要問部長謝謝 謝謝局長接下來有請林部長"},{"start":4671.383,"end":4700.124,"text":"委員好部長好那這個呢今天也有看到這個消息就是剛剛前面我記得美林委員的時候你也有提到就是川普今天簽署了這一個這個Assurance Implementation Act是那這當然是很重要我覺得這是一個非常重要的突破是否可以跟國人說明說這樣的一個突破的進程還有以及我們未來的下一步的規劃是什麼是這個台灣保證實施法案的簽署生效是川普政府"},{"start":4700.985,"end":4724.499,"text":"第一份算通過的友台法案所以對先前有一些質疑台美關係的我想這個就不攻自破先前的軍售也是如此這個都代表台美關係穩健的發展那這個是重要性就是說建立在台灣保證法那個時候是台灣旅行法的基礎上那大家就是希望正常的往來包括"},{"start":4726.68,"end":4746.892,"text":"護法以及到彼此的機關去洽談公務比如說到聯邦的機構或者是到我們的代表處那以前有一些自我設限那事實上在台灣旅行法之後這個都是朝開放的方向那先前就是有關這個交往準則"},{"start":4747.973,"end":4772.635,"text":"那當然在川普總統第一任的時候其實蓬佩奧這個國務卿也澄清把他解除掉可是拜登政府後來又恢復了一些交往的準則那當然現在能夠正式的透過立法就是把這個鬆綁掉對不對台美關係的正常發展是一個非常重要的一步"},{"start":4773.456,"end":4787.22,"text":"我覺得這很重要就是說它是逐步檢視每五年也要一次這種逐步檢視的方式其實是比較好的也比較緩和然後對國際也能夠比如說友邦如果其他的國家也能夠跟著美國的腳步來做這件事情的話對台灣的這一個幫助也很大"},{"start":4789.801,"end":4808.654,"text":"那我看到其實呢這不是只有在美國嘛在這一次這一個部長到歐洲其實蠻多趟的其實也都是在突破相關的限制因為我自己在歐洲也跑了幾次我也都知道部長其實去了不少地方然後很多地方都特別的低調也都是很希望就是說能夠在顧外交之餘然後但是又不要去驚動"},{"start":4809.714,"end":4835.817,"text":"免得到最後造成不必要的困擾但是如果像這樣的法案在各國能夠慢慢開始推出的時候我覺得對台灣當然是重要但反過來講就是因為我們昨天這個國防的這個預算這一個1.25兆8年1.25兆在程序委員會被擋下來那這件事情又有可能被操作說你看這個台灣其實這個根本就沒有要防衛的決心等等這個聲音一定還是會被熊貓派把它弄出來"},{"start":4836.437,"end":4847.132,"text":"所以一方面川普簽了這一個法案能夠穩固這個台美的關係但內部一定也有人又把這一個國防的預算拿出來又要做一些文章這個在外交上會不會形成一些困境"},{"start":4848.877,"end":4860.063,"text":"當然會有一些可能負面的解讀那我們當然也期待就是立法院可以讓他盡快的進入程序委員會進行實質的討論因為這是一個8年的特別預算雖然是1.25兆但是他經過8年之後那也在我們的公債法的規定下來進行所以至於就實質的內容哪一個項目有意見我想只要進入程序委員會才能夠進行實質討論"},{"start":4875.271,"end":4895.148,"text":"我們也當然會跟美國等友盟做溝通我相信大家也很關心在野黨下一步怎麼去來審查國防特別預算我想立法院總是會有一個過程我想是經過持續的協調能夠往前送到程序委員會之後盡快的審查跟通過"},{"start":4901.813,"end":4922.181,"text":"對啦 我覺得這是一個過程這句話其實蠻重要的我們對於這些友邦或者支持台灣的國家應該要讓他們知道這是一個過程照理說這個過程它會有一些攻防不要讓這些攻防的這些素材反而變成對方去操作這個移台論這個在外交上一定是有所不利那回到今天的題目因為今天題目是在講說這一個美中這個通話"},{"start":4924.822,"end":4947.942,"text":"当然我们没有通话的译文所以很难去评论所以我们只能从外观两个国家自己去宣布到底讲了什么东西但很明显中国所公布的跟美国所公布的这两边是对不起来的中国向来其实都很喜欢在这个事后的不管是他的新闻稿等等之类做这些加油添醋但这个事情就连接到我们跟日本之间的关系"},{"start":4948.422,"end":4977.453,"text":"因為最近因為依照高市早苗的這個說法他其實是說他沒有直接的立場去認定台灣的法律地位所以中國現在開始展開了這一個法律戰他針對這個甚至很多國人在開玩笑說這個馬關條約是不是又要持續了這個舊西山合約為什麼失效我們現在外交部針對這一個法律戰的準備如何因為畢竟這有可能就是2758號是上一個法律戰的一個戰場這個看起來又會是下一個戰場我們這方面的準備是否足夠"},{"start":4977.793,"end":4996.703,"text":"是 報告委員我在去年擔任外交部長之後我就注意到中共是把今年當作所謂30個80年那這個是一個法律戰它在一方面也是在鋪陳無力犯台以外也是在做認知戰所以我們已經都準備好了所以包括我今年在7月7號受邀"},{"start":4997.583,"end":5022.833,"text":"世界法學會跟美國法學會的亞太論壇我有發表一個主題演講我們就針對這個歷史敘述還有是它的法律涉及到的這些包括舊金山合約已經做了我們的官方的一個解釋這個也呈現在我們外交部的網站上那也跟美國做了很多的溝通所以後來也有一些人在這個去探尋美國國務院還有AIT的意見他們在第一時間都對於中共的這個"},{"start":5027.375,"end":5050.256,"text":"就是錯誤的這個詮釋在第一時間就做了回應那現在就是因為日本是高市早苗首相在國會在這個質詢的時候算是官方的很正式的回答那這個剛好中共當然很生氣可是也置破其短因為就是他們想要一個錯誤的歷史敘事來進行法律戰結果被戳破了"},{"start":5051.496,"end":5077.981,"text":"所以說舊青山合約的這個時候日本就是依國際法他完全放棄對台灣的主權之後他沒有地位去做怎麼樣的主張那這個就回來代表到這個時間其實中華人民共和國是1949年10月1號成立那他為什麼要去連結1945年所謂3個80年他就是在補這一段就是對中國的代表權"},{"start":5079.021,"end":5103.144,"text":"那我想這個當然他想要去大外宣結果被有點是說被戳破了那當然惱羞成怒可是現在的這種過度反應也至不其短所以外界有很多的討論才理解到原來有這一段歷史那中共他說他不承認我想這個國際條約那他要去面對說實在的所謂的一忠於否"},{"start":5104.065,"end":5125.844,"text":"很多在當時是在1971年聯合國2758號決議才有所謂一中兩中或一中一台所以中共的一個歷史敘述他去想要回去重新去扭曲歷史為其所用這個我們也開始再次暴露中共的一個所謂的混合權他全面的這種混合戰他的一個整個在對台灣的一個"},{"start":5132.84,"end":5136.447,"text":"這個威脅那我們都有做好準備所以在2758號決議上我想2758號決議經過IPAC在去年來台灣包括委員有參與"},{"start":5143.188,"end":5170.424,"text":"有一個範本然後就領接了世界各國的國會議會都通過這個參考修正之後的版本從澳大利亞到這一個荷蘭捷克英國到歐洲議會那今年的重點就進一步發展到所謂的台灣地位的這個歷史文件的一個解釋那我相信這樣一個過程裡面日本言所當言特別是高市長苗首相他都是被動的"},{"start":5171.425,"end":5196.214,"text":"但是他被問到他必須誠實以對這個就是我們可以看到其實歷史或真理也是越辯越明對 我覺得這個真的很重要就是剛剛部長提到的其實速度就是我們第一時間比如說今天美國的回應 歐盟的回應比如說日本的回應它其實雖然其實是被動的但因為平常我們都有在交往平常都有在論述這個時候它第一時間就能夠去產生有利於台灣的回應"},{"start":5197.014,"end":5215.146,"text":"你看台灣人其實花了可能20年的時間才發現九二共識根本是一個有問題的不存在的但是台灣人可能只花了一年多的時間就已經跟國際的友邦開始講說2758是有問題的所以這個速度只會越來越快尤其是在網路世界所以針對現在可能要講舊金山合約了以後可能"},{"start":5215.506,"end":5237.374,"text":"又會有下一個法律戰如果我們都可以做好準備然後所有的國家在外交人員的努力之下能夠快速的回應這個對台灣確實是有利但回到剛剛中間我提到的就是像這種議台論還有我們現在立法院的作為很容易會讓一些議台論的資產會去減慢那個速度那這個可能是在外交上我們必須要去謹慎跟拿捏的那因為時間的關係我可能就先到這邊謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來"},{"start":5245.645,"end":5247.447,"text":"請林柱英委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席先有請蔡明彥局長請蔡局長"},{"start":5271.889,"end":5289.556,"text":"林委員早局長早安我可能還是要先來問一下有關於中國滲透的部分那麼我們知道中國滲透的方式非常的多元包括過去您在國防外交委員會所做的報告當中非常多但是現在有一個新型態的方式是不是透過企業透過經濟的方式更直銷的來控制台灣不論是經濟面甚至於是個資面"},{"start":5297.119,"end":5317.832,"text":"首先當然就是瑞幸咖啡到底是不是要進來台灣在星期一的時候經濟部長 工部長是有說了他們目前沒有收到這樣的訊息可是我們可以看到的是像瑞幸咖啡其實事實上在美國的證券交易委員會已經被質疑說有做假帳那麼現在經濟部最擔心的是所謂的"},{"start":5318.632,"end":5341.528,"text":"假代理但是是真實質的做經營這樣的一個操控這會不會是一個新型態的面向跟方式另外我要提出來的是許多的追星人也一直不斷的在提醒本席那就是之前我在這裡也質詢過您的就是是不是透過一個類似也是類似我不敢講手法一樣就是假代理真經營那麼"},{"start":5343.169,"end":5349.237,"text":"就是這種中國資金的這個公司那麼它透過演唱會經濟進入台灣的市場因為我們知道演唱會經濟喔它拿到經濟約就像買一幅畫一樣價高者得"},{"start":5359.029,"end":5367.354,"text":"那麼到底這個價錢價值值多少很難說合不合理那麼我要強調的是在我提出來的這兩個案例當中它不盡相同但是它確實都是透過一種經濟的模式進來台灣瑞幸咖啡如果它真的上市之後它要用掃描QR Code的方式要求國人在點餐的時候必須輸入相關的資訊包括你的手機可能就下載了它的APP"},{"start":5386.886,"end":5407.913,"text":"那麼如果說今天有中資的演唱會公司進來台灣他會透過售票系統台灣嚴格要求實名制是為了抓黃牛不要變成是給了中國有機會拿到台灣的個資所以言下之意的我想請問的就是這會不會是對國安局來講現在另外一種新的滲透模式"},{"start":5409.159,"end":5433.45,"text":"謝委員長期都關注民眾各自的問題以及眾志的這些軟體或APP可能對於民眾各自的侵害委員應該也知道本局對這一塊的議題也非常的重視才會發布一連串的報告在做必要的社會警示以及大眾的知覺對於中共治安侵害的知覺委員提到的個案的部分有提到中國大陸的連鎖咖啡店會不會進駐台灣的問題"},{"start":5435.051,"end":5455.718,"text":"那確實這家連鎖咖啡店在中國大陸的擴張非常的快目前大概有三萬多個據點那甚至比星巴克的據點還要多那它的行銷特點就是會透過一些折扣或優惠的方式來鼓勵使用者消費者下載它的APP那它的APP的資安風險在國外曾經被提出來做過一些警告跟提醒"},{"start":5456.058,"end":5480.519,"text":"那因為他的APP下載之後可能會開始去掌握你的個資位置以及消費交易的行為那這部分委員提出來我也利用這個機會再做個說明來提醒大家注意那目前確實還沒有所謂的投資申請案送到經濟部去那經濟部去 假如真的有送的話大概經濟部審查還是在於說有沒有中資的結構的問題那假如是用代理的方式進來的話"},{"start":5481.48,"end":5487.562,"text":"那我們會提醒經濟部該必要的國安審查我們這邊會來把關這部分請問放心我相信現在所謂新的模式會變成是因為如果是投資要經投審會那麼我們就會有所謂的投資的比例的問題那麼會讓後面的資金現行但是如果用代理"},{"start":5500.865,"end":5515.031,"text":"找一個空殼的公司用代理的方式他就會規避審查那麼這個可能是一個新型態的樣態我們也就提醒國安局要注意這個部分然後要跟跨部會的包括經濟部或是其他相關甚至於數位部等等來做一個跨部會的這個所謂演繹因為有涉及到"},{"start":5523.086,"end":5531.979,"text":"股權結構以外的國安審查部分那本局會發揮我們的功能那因為還沒有目前還沒有收到這個資訊我會來處理請你們放心另外一個當然本宵要特別提到的就是褲棚這個所謂的美商但是是韓資的褲棚"},{"start":5539.529,"end":5555.1,"text":"現在就發生了有三千萬帳戶的個資外移那麼過去庫蓬一直強調的是他們的資安管理得非常好但是你知道只要有人裡應外合那就不得了那麼就是有所謂的中國籍的員工在裡面直接把資料帶走那這種"},{"start":5556.841,"end":5585.82,"text":"真的是內鬼難防所以真的是過去我們一直在質詢台上或是在國內透過媒體一直強調那就是只要是具有中國身份他因為中國的國安法的相關的要求他就必須為國家來進行所謂情搜間諜的任務我想這個例子喔在韓國發生那麼就沒有得說我們今天所謂扣人家的帽子但是現在比較擔憂的是我要帶過來就是如果以目前立法院"},{"start":5586.961,"end":5613.746,"text":"的這幾個修法的進度中國的國家情報法第七條就規定了他們的公民必須要配合國家來做情搜我相信剛剛我舉出來的這個韓國庫蓬的例子應該也就是因為中國籍的人士他沒有放棄他的國籍他即使到韓國去工作了他擁有中國籍他就必須要服膺在中華人民共和國的法律之下那麼如果說現在搭配的組合權是中國籍的配偶6年改4年"},{"start":5616.607,"end":5634.702,"text":"然後再加上近親通婚再加上如果國籍法的修正擔任公職可以不用放棄中國籍那麼國安局會不會認為說這個完全是讓台灣暴露在中國可以直接大剌剌的把所有的入侵都滲透都合理化"},{"start":5635.724,"end":5652.414,"text":"這大概分三個部分跟委員做報告一個部分是所謂我們的公職人員不能擁有雙重國籍的這部分從法制面來講以現在的國籍法來講是不容許的所以這部分我們尊重夜館機關在法律上的一個詮釋跟立場"},{"start":5653.234,"end":5676.759,"text":"那第二部分是就制度面來講假如說我們的公職人員擁有雙重國籍的話他很容易產生的一個問題是國家的認同跟中正的混淆那這是制度面的問題第三個部分是我們更關切是國安面的問題也就是說假如公職人員有雙重國籍的話那會不會有中國的法制假如說這公職人員的雙重國籍是包括到原籍在中國的話"},{"start":5677.319,"end":5704.754,"text":"那會不會有委員提到的因為中國國家法制的問題而讓這位擁有台灣公職人員的這位人士必須要把情職提供給中國大陸所以這個部分是國安角度我們比較擔心的所以就三個面向來講法律的部分我知道貴院正在討論我也不知道修出來的法律會是怎麼樣但即使法律有新的法制的話從國安單位來講我們還是要強調的是從制度面國家認同中正的模糊以及從國安面"},{"start":5705.234,"end":5724.224,"text":"可能遭到中國法律的約制要提供相關的資訊給中國政府的話這部分我們在國安上是有些疑慮的那也利用這樣的討論提供給大院各位委員做個參考好 我知道如果這樣的法真的擋不了那麼對於國安局來講你們的壓力或者是你們的任務或工作就會更加的沉重因為我認為我們歡迎所有的人成為中華民國的國民"},{"start":5728.206,"end":5735.01,"text":"那麼成為國民之後想要同樣的權利但是要同樣的義務效忠中華民國我相信這個義務是擺在最前面的那麼為了要讓這樣的義務讓每一個國民都一體適用的時候那麼對於還有人要留著中華人民共和國的國籍捨不得拋棄那麼就變成是接下來的壓力就要在國安局跟其他這些相關固守國安這一塊的這個我們政府同仁的工作上面了所以我也想先提出來做提醒"},{"start":5757.322,"end":5768.454,"text":"我們還是希望在修法過程當中能夠多多考量我們國安面的關鍵謝謝委員提到這個問題讓我們來做說明好 謝謝 那麼接下來局長可以請回我要請外交部林部長請林部長委員好"},{"start":5773.871,"end":5802.555,"text":"部長好 我相信最近國際的事情非常多從日本的高市早苗再到我們幾個友邦也都在正在面臨這個所謂的大選喔那麼我們知道選一個民主國家那麼政黨輪替上台下台都非常的平常那麼也是非常正常會發生的事情那麼目前呢我相信媒體最關注的一個是目前洪都拉斯的總統大選目前似乎還在進行當中不知道外交部有沒有收到最新的最後結果了"},{"start":5803.927,"end":5831.834,"text":"我今天早上我有知道最新的投票率然後前兩位領先的又有一點改變但是現在的執政黨就是跟我們斷交的他們的候選人是遠遠的落後所以這兩位領先的總統候選人都曾經在競選時候公開表達將跟台灣未來這個恢復邦交另外一方面我們也跟這兩位總統候選人的陣營都有"},{"start":5833.094,"end":5861.551,"text":"保持這個溝通一個很好的聯繫的管道因為我相信如何維持在不論是有沒有在成為執政黨的過程當中其實外交部因為本席多次的都跟這個外交部的同仁一起到歐洲或其他國家去做訪問我們都知道其實當我們見的委員不一定是執政黨的委員在野黨的委員其實我們也都會有所交流原因就是因為其實外交的藝術是跟這個國家維持一個穩定的邦誼"},{"start":5862.532,"end":5874.584,"text":"那麼現在面對如果上台的都是比較在立場上侵台的部分那麼是不是外交部也比較有信心我們可以有機會把洪都拉斯這樣的一個邦交國再爭取回來"},{"start":5875.956,"end":5899.622,"text":"當然他們新的總統跟政府他會有一個政策的方向雖然他競選的時候有講不過執政之後當然也要去做一個正式因為是變成一個政府官方的決定只是我們這不過都是一個很積極跟開放的態度希望能夠爭取跟洪都拉斯建立外交的關係"},{"start":5900.441,"end":5924.483,"text":"好那麼同樣的本席要提醒當然也有這個關心到盛文森的狀況喔那麼其實不論是政黨輪替之後對於台灣的立場是比較友善又或者是對於中國的立場比較親中的我相信在這個部分外交單位應該其實都有一些掌握是嗎也就是說其實我們的外交工作在在帝國在友邦當中其實都是有針對這些"},{"start":5926.985,"end":5942.358,"text":"住在國的這個整個政情有做一些因應那麼你們是不是都隨時的有去做滾動式的討論有 以盛文森來講我們的大使已經有跟新的總理會面也有這個轉交總統的"},{"start":5946.201,"end":5967.142,"text":"跟我們政府對他的一個祝賀他也表示感謝那很多在進行中的方案也會持續那當然新人新政他的重點在哪裡我們也會跟他再進一步討論另外其實也剛選完的是聖露西亞那因為是原來的執政黨他繼續執政那我們也都維持很好的關係"},{"start":5968.283,"end":5989.043,"text":"好 所以說這個外交同仁在第一線非常的辛苦那我們雖然提出這樣的一些詢問但是我當然也知道在外交的過程當中有很多東西只能先做 無法先曝光那麼在這邊的話本席還是要請外交同仁在努力的變局當中努力為台灣的外交爭取更好的成績謝謝好 謝謝委員的支持"},{"start":5994.288,"end":5998.453,"text":"好謝謝接下來請許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們有請那個林佳龍部長請林部長"},{"start":6016.533,"end":6043.725,"text":"委員好部長好我想今天非常多的委員都關心一樣的問題那就是因為對我們中華民國來說很重要首先就是剛才有提到的洪都拉斯今天在媒體訪問的時候您有講說對於洪都拉斯2023年斷交之後是不是有可能跟中華民國重新復交因為我們看到目前他們的兩位總統參選人都有提出類似的主張"},{"start":6044.605,"end":6064.81,"text":"那您在這邊是公開講說這個沒有預設任何立場可是我想要問比較具體的就是說我們到底有沒有這個已經準備好了具體的規劃然後呢因為您剛剛講說跟這些候選人他們都有一些接觸嘛但我想問的是不是單純的就是兩邊之間有沒有互動"},{"start":6065.49,"end":6078.425,"text":"而是中華民國這邊如果我們要準備希望能夠重新跟這個洪都拉斯復交的話那我們具體的規劃比如說合作方式那可能是會有哪一些"},{"start":6079.113,"end":6102.354,"text":"是 報告委員我們外交部現在有推出龍幫計畫有八大旗艦都會對應未來的邦交國如果要建立這個關係的時候他所重視的政策方向另外當然外界也了解那我們針對洪都拉斯的部分可以講一下因為您剛剛講邦交國嘛但是現在他並不是我們的邦交國嘛可是我們希望他重新成為我們的邦交國嘛"},{"start":6103.135,"end":6123.269,"text":"所以我們一定在這個部分不管是投入一些合作方案或是採購計畫等等的那我們會有一些就像是我們跟友邦之間都會有這樣子的一個合作嘛那您剛講的我們會看這個各國的需要那從您外交部長的角度來說現在宏都拉斯他需要什麼那我們能夠拿出什麼來跟宏都拉斯做合作"},{"start":6124.489,"end":6142.356,"text":"因為宏都拉斯旁邊的鄰國包括瓜地馬拉貝里斯我們都有很多的籠包計畫在推動那對於宏都拉斯在選舉當中有成為問題在討論的事就是那個所謂白蝦出口的問題那事實上宏都拉斯的白蝦產業也是台灣去幫他發展的"},{"start":6143.076,"end":6154.046,"text":"現在中共食言而肥而且大量的傾銷廉價的物品到宏都拉斯打擊了他們的經濟跟就業所以我們是要創造未來宏都拉斯如果跟我們建立邦交之後能夠讓他有發展經濟然後創造就業至於說我們的這些進出口包括像白蝦台灣的白蝦的需求量是很大的"},{"start":6168.178,"end":6183.305,"text":"所以我們是有這樣的一個市場可以來歡迎洪都拉斯的白蝦能夠輸到台灣因為我們其實在斷交以來看到太多跟白蝦有關的新聞所以說接下來如果我們有機會能夠跟洪都拉斯復交"},{"start":6184.045,"end":6200.107,"text":"或者是我們努力在跟這個新任的總統無論是哪一位然後跟他們這個建議說我們有復交的機會的時候我們會提出採購白蝦進出口作為我們的一個合作基礎是這樣子嗎"},{"start":6200.973,"end":6218.562,"text":"我想不管是我們政府的推動或民間的自發的行動一定會很歡迎跟大量的採購紅兔拉絲的白蝦民間自發性那是民間的事但我們要問的是政府會不會有系統跟有效率性的去推動此一計畫作為雙邊的合作基礎"},{"start":6220.864,"end":6235.626,"text":"對 因為我們市場有這個需求而且它的品質不錯好 那這樣我了解了那再來呢最近這個賴清德總統啊他突然很關心香港那剛好這個香港呢他有發生這個不幸的這個火災事件"},{"start":6236.167,"end":6264.606,"text":"那雖然我也要提到這個台北經濟文化辦事處在香港是陸委會所屬的並非外交部但是呢因為過去對香港的議題我們過去外交部也經常的會在世界各國都會有發表意見的這個空間那所以呢還有這次的大火的傷亡是全世界都有國家在關心喔所以我想要問一下外交部對於這次香港大火的看法那如果是關心除了關心以外會不會有一些實際的這個行動"},{"start":6267.748,"end":6282.42,"text":"當然我們配合陸委會進行涉外的事務因為在香港方面主管機關是陸委會至於說國際上我想對於發生這種不幸的事情我們一定是表達關懷"},{"start":6285.649,"end":6300.254,"text":"至於我們能夠做什麼因為涉及到現在是中共直接在控制香港你看現在即使有一些香港民間不是啊 香港本來就是這個他們就97年就回歸啦但是他們已經徹底有點把它香港"},{"start":6301.574,"end":6326.923,"text":"有一點包括不管選舉還有這些政黨還有這些控制所以在雨傘革命之前的時候我們在談說撐香港但是在雨傘革命之後到現在來說的話會認為就是說對香港這個部分那就是如果我們去協助或是說過度的關心的話那會變成是說跟中共唱和您的意思是這樣嗎不是啦"},{"start":6327.711,"end":6333.496,"text":"因為中共對於香港民間發動的要求去就是說針對這個事件去調查或是聲援都是"},{"start":6340.464,"end":6363.491,"text":"如臨大敵我們的表示方式怎麼樣能夠到人道的層次我們表達關懷至於實質能夠做什麼我們當然也在了解可是因為很容易就會引起北京當局他可能從政治去支持關心協助甚至捐款給香港北京他怎麼會"},{"start":6364.744,"end":6382.628,"text":"現在北京完全控制香港沒有那個自由的空間我們連很多社團現在都被控制我的意思是說你今天如果去聲援或是支持香港的話那北京怎麼會不高興呢就從他的角度來說再者今天是一個人道的世界他可能會認為他通敵啦或是什麼你說誰通敵反間諜啦這個很多所以香港"},{"start":6387.709,"end":6405.85,"text":"進去都要很小心的因為他要常被管轄所以你認為說如果今天我們的政府主動的協助香港的話那被協助的人他會被中共認為說跟台灣之間有通敵的行為然後造成他的人身安全的危險嗎我是說因為香港現在被中共"},{"start":6406.671,"end":6414.676,"text":"送中之後他的控制是非常嚴連他民間自發的行動都禁止那以前四川地震的時候但那也是中國大陸我們不是也有人到關懷也是怎麼樣做比較適合我們當然也要因應這個新的情勢"},{"start":6422.92,"end":6447.977,"text":"不是我的意思是說像以前有四川大地震那中國大陸也有發生過很多這個不幸的事件那這個兩岸之間的這個特別的關係也一直都存在那我們基於人道考量的立場其實過去也經常的去協助中國大陸那怎麼就沒有這個問題我跟委員報告現在怎麼就有這個問題地震它因為事後的傷害持續所以你要做損害礦管救災可是這個火災它當時我們也是捐款"},{"start":6448.777,"end":6452.379,"text":"當然他的需要我想我們不管政府或民間一定會表達我們的支持以實質的行動來去幫助可是我意思是說就這個災害來講他火災不管他去救責他已經結束了當然事後什麼傷亡去處理這是一個這跟地震或是颱風水災是不太一樣我們也無從去那邊參與救災沒有說要去參與救災我們民間有大體老師或者是一些修復"},{"start":6479.01,"end":6494.076,"text":"實體的他們就主動表達我們政府也是都很支持希望大家以各種行動來關懷您在這邊是在表達就是說希望大家可以用各種形式來關懷香港的大火事件是這樣嗎對就從人道主義的精神來說是這樣嗎"},{"start":6495.717,"end":6517.691,"text":"那您剛講的就是說所謂這個兩岸關係的一些衝突的問題講到所謂的通敵然後還有香港的這個事情應該不是指說如果今天這個台灣去協助香港或是政府的政策然後呢這個您的主張來人道關懷香港來協助那會使得被這個協助方然後變成是說被"},{"start":6518.331,"end":6534.361,"text":"指控為通敵的對象你認為這樣的事情會發生嗎就是說陸委會有在關懷我們也是支持現在就是說因為他現在是中共直接控制香港他會政治化很多所以我們在處理很多行動而且他中共已經關閉了跟我們的在港澳的這個管道嘛"},{"start":6535.021,"end":6562.222,"text":"所以陸委會也沒辦法派人去啊也沒辦法 都沒辦法我知道了另外最後要請教一下這個就外交問題了剛剛也辛苦您了就是說因為特別我知道主責是在陸委會一開始我問的時候我就提了但是因為涉及到香港的問題的時候過去外交部也都蠻常經常有一些發言的再來它是一個世界現在都關心的人道事件所以我才請您也表達一下我們國家的立場"},{"start":6563.123,"end":6584.508,"text":"我們總統也有表達另外就是有關於我們在加勒比海的邦交國聖文森及格瑞納丁的總理因為他一直跟大陸方有接觸但是最近我也看到外交部有講說我們一定會盡可能的來鞏固雙邊的關係目前也不擔心說可能會有斷交的危機是這樣吧"},{"start":6587.193,"end":6593.996,"text":"對一般來說我們的邦交國跟中國大陸互動之前會跟我們做一些溝通請問一下這一次有沒有因為這個新的總理跟我們都維持很好的關係他也沒有說要政策的改變他現在就職之後我們也跟他在討論他關心的施政的重點他關心的施政重點是哪一個部分"},{"start":6612.125,"end":6641.354,"text":"他很關心就是有關於內政特別是這些中小微企業啦年輕人的就業那他施政的重點跟先前這個鞏薩福總理席間是不太一樣所以我們也在跟他討論因為我們會有很多跟他的這些合作項目那我想問一下那我們具體有哪一些比較主要的這個合作項目的規劃可能性那是這個盛文森他們有需求的"},{"start":6641.934,"end":6650.277,"text":"本來的前政府當然是重視很多大型建設包括醫院啦相關的這些基礎建設可是這個新的總理啊這Friday他重視的是更實質比較是屬於基層人民的需求像什麼我剛講比如說一些融資貸款啦讓他們可以創業啦或是一些平民的住宅啦"},{"start":6665.002,"end":6679.315,"text":"銀行類的這種借貸類的住宅是指說工程類的不是 我講他希望能夠創造給他們十億萬的人民都能夠在生活實質上的改善比較不是大型的建設"},{"start":6679.735,"end":6697.084,"text":"我認他希望做生活實質上改善我知我知道但我要問的是說我們在外交上面的合作上面能夠如何協助嗎我們總不可能你們總不可能會我相信不會就他希望人民都過得好我們就幫他們去發錢給民眾不會是這樣的合作不會我們有籠幫計畫做基礎"},{"start":6698.325,"end":6710.532,"text":"所以我要問的是說那既然他有這樣子的內政規劃那要與我們共同合作外交的合作那我們從外交的角度來說可以跟他們具體產生什麼樣的合作來幫助他的內政計劃"},{"start":6712.819,"end":6738.826,"text":"對 就是要跟他就施政的重點嘛對啊優先的項目來進行討論就是我的問題就是有哪一些項目是我們現在規劃說可能可以合作的就像我剛剛第一題問你的時候你就講得很清楚嘛就是那這一個我們現在的這個規劃的項目大概有哪幾個項目像你說宏都拉斯你就講說那我們未來可能在白蝦的採購上面那從政策的角度上面也會鼓勵民間等等那我要問一下盛文森的部分"},{"start":6739.266,"end":6742.409,"text":"他是對藍色經濟還有這一所所謂的他們要成立一個類似國民銀行然後能夠放貸然後融資給這些中小微企業還有一般的平民讓他可以有創業就業的機會好我了解了謝謝部長好謝謝"},{"start":6769.368,"end":6773.172,"text":"我們下一位有請馬維君召委謝謝主席麻煩請外交部林部長請林部長"},{"start":6797.686,"end":6825.537,"text":"部長早 部長就這一次我們在看到最近有國人在海外尋求緊急救援的這個狀況因為我想外交部它存在的一個主要的目的就是要發展對外關係還有維護國家的利益更重要的當然也是要保護國人尤其當國人在國外發生緊急事況"},{"start":6826.758,"end":6841.254,"text":"狀況的時候 駐外人員在國人求援的時候希望可以及時提供支援近日在媒體報導國人在阿布達比轉機的時候突然遭到武裝人員帶走就這個狀況 因為當時在"},{"start":6844.341,"end":6861.927,"text":"請求救援的時候外交部的杜拜辦事處他給予的回應大概就是因為跟阿布達比沒有正式往來的管道沒有辦法向警方詢問拘捕的原因然後又鏈接給他自行去找這個律師"},{"start":6863.227,"end":6866.39,"text":"就這個部分因為民眾在發生這些事情的時候尤其是在非常陌生的一個國家他們在這個部分他到底要怎麼找就這個部分這一次其實幸好只是同名同姓被誤抓那就這個部分部長有什麼看法"},{"start":6882.867,"end":6909.042,"text":"陳盧委員所講因為我們涉杜拜的辦事處這個事件在第一個時間發生是在阿布達比因為我們沒有正式的外交關係以及一些管處的外交特權所以在交涉上雖然積極主動但是能夠掌握一開始資訊有限不過很快的也就跟他們這個政府還有警方聯繫上確保他的安全跟所在地然後之後就從阿布達比他們就把他移送回來到"},{"start":6909.842,"end":6924.672,"text":"杜拜這個時候我們的這個住管的這個代表就是都有在關心照應包括事後他這個釋放的時候到他的這個我們代表的管處啊去居住"},{"start":6925.192,"end":6929.135,"text":"這個中間因為您現在這樣敘述可是因為當事人沒有辦法這樣體會所以我想在發生事情的狀況之下尤其他是好幾天都沒有消息那如果說我們的住外管處有可以透過更多的管道因為他們第一時間給的訊息就是剛剛講的那兩個自己找律師因為只有家屬可以找"},{"start":6948.488,"end":6956.657,"text":"那還有他太太去如果沒有只有他自己一個人那到底怎麼找報告委員因為他太太又離開了部長先跟我講他沒有留在這個他本來就應該要離開他要怎麼留在那裡這個後面的人在那裡在那裡帶風向說他太太跟著旅行團去他當然要跟著去啊不然他到時候怎麼回來"},{"start":6967.648,"end":6970.249,"text":"因為請律師是要他太太授權對 如果授權沒有問題如果我們的駐外單位那也可以 駐外單位可以請他的太太留下來除非他不願意那你可以釋放這樣的消息如果不是 因為你叫他自己去找這是第一點這個外面有一些報導有出入並不是說叫你去找我們不用看報導啦 部長"},{"start":6989.855,"end":6991.417,"text":"因為發生的狀況已經是這樣我們的那個住管單位也沒有留下他啊就是說如果今天如果有很明確的作為那當然就是錯誤的報導今天家屬的感受這是第一線我想要用這個事件"},{"start":7006.736,"end":7008.878,"text":"來請教一下因為我們希望發生事情的時候我們不是在這裡爭辯說那個後續怎麼樣那個是有錯誤的那是有什麼樣的誤解我們要的是在當下你可以做什麼樣的一個救援的行動因為最近也剛好很多大陸很多的我們"},{"start":7028.234,"end":7031.736,"text":"像我們在委員會有很多的委員或者我們現在執政黨的委員其實也提到前一陣子大陸公安局對許多政治人物或者在軍中服役的人員以涉嫌從事分裂國家活動發布通緝的事件這個應該記憶猶新"},{"start":7046.826,"end":7048.768,"text":"現在如果當這些人在海外也發生類似的事件的時候我們應該要怎麼樣的救援因為剛剛提到阿布達比這個他不是第一次可是他也不會是最後一次尤其現在中共已經發布這樣的通緝令如果這些人"},{"start":7065.285,"end":7083.096,"text":"在海外發生這樣的狀況的時候其實這就是我們在遇到事情的時候應該要怎麼做我想這個應該要一個SOP我們今天會提出來詢問也是希望外交部應該就這個部分今天一個名人都我們一般的國人都可以發生這樣的狀況如果現在這些人還包括是我們國家可能栽培的這些軍事人員都可能發生的時候我們應該有什麼樣的SOP"},{"start":7093.383,"end":7105.261,"text":"還是他們就可以受到比較多的關注部長您怎麼看我們有SOP而且照SOP在可以怎麼做SOP怎麼做因為上一次就是這樣啊四天沒有消息啊那大家一定會很緊張嘛後來是因為他是誤抓"},{"start":7109.347,"end":7115.872,"text":"萬一今天如果不是的時候我們應該怎麼做現在有沒有辦法提出一個簡單的SOP或者在這個部分應該怎麼樣研擬一個更好的一個協助的方式或者救援的方式這個部分部長是現在回答還是你希望可以有一個有些特殊的規定我們當然也會按照這個例子因為我們沒有邦交而且有外交的這個特權或豁免"},{"start":7137.088,"end":7149.976,"text":"是在進行的時候因為對方的法律有規定必須要由他的這個家屬來授權我知道 部長我們不用去討論那個聘請律師或什麼今天假如是沈伯陽委員假如是沈伯陽委員在外國不曉得哪一個國家萬一發生這樣的狀況的時候我們外交部可以怎麼做"},{"start":7159.142,"end":7164.784,"text":"我們現在很完整針對所有的國家包括它跟中國或台灣有沒有涉及引渡或者是司法互助條約然後有沒有相關的刑法的規定至於說它有沒有政治上有一宗或是過去有沒有案例就是說配合中共我們都有把它歸類然後根據每個情況有沒有代表處在那邊"},{"start":7185.549,"end":7189.472,"text":"然後進行這個分類我想我在這裡提醒因為我們有涉代表處的非常少如果要比較起來那中共當然相對很多今天如果發生相關的事態的時候我們有111個管處111個管處你要怎麼做我剛剛舉例如果是沈伯陽委員他在外面發生這樣的情況你會怎麼做我們希望你可以有一個有效的SOP讓大家非常清楚因為剛剛你講的大家還是不懂"},{"start":7210.646,"end":7213.387,"text":"所以我還如果還是要找自己找律師那還是束手無策萬一只有一個人的時候他根本沒有家屬在現場的時候那完全措手不及也沒有能力所以就怎麼樣如果國人發生這樣的狀況的時候你有什麼樣的SOP請詳細的包括怎麼交涉營救還有這個在這個過程裡面"},{"start":7234.793,"end":7236.934,"text":"我們已經講得很清楚就是因為你這個事件只是誤抓就已經拖了四五天他沒有辦法及時或者第一時間沒有拖了四五天其實24號的時候我們接過電話之後25號就已經確認他的地點而且是安全的那既然安全後續就是依照他們的法律程序來處理"},{"start":7255.501,"end":7273.754,"text":"今天我一直強調他是被誤抓今天如果是我們的過去在軍中比如說電展示之前被公布的那些人他們出去的時候請外交部有一個明確的SOP的一個說明讓我們國人更清楚的知道這個部分請提出來好不好是"},{"start":7274.454,"end":7278.176,"text":"好 因為我們希望大家不是在事後講這個我們強調的他是被誤抓今天如果是其他人就不是這麼同意我們也要求這個對方給我們解釋說明外交部要有能力因為在這裡我要特別再提一個就是我們最近"},{"start":7289.921,"end":7313.177,"text":"包括中部的或我們南投其實有很多接到很多的陳情案我們目前在緬甸柬埔寨其實至少有兩三千個國人在那裡不管是被騙被迫或者是自願在那裡現在可能有很多人想要回來回不來他們發出求救的訊息尤其是家屬現在就只有家屬能求救我們可以有什麼樣的作為"},{"start":7314.858,"end":7335.881,"text":"有 我們跟包括警政署還有法務部都有很多的分隊處理的程序也營救過數百人那有一些因為涉及到那些國家它跟中共的配合有一些被遣送"},{"start":7336.682,"end":7340.206,"text":"到這個中國也有這種情形部長我現在講的是說我們的國人現在在那裡求助無門你剛剛說我們的警政如果有個案的話再請委員提因為我們基本上應該是很密切在注意跟因應外交部可以部長在這裡做這樣的承諾我們希望"},{"start":7355.079,"end":7359.543,"text":"這個部分可以盡速的協助把國人救回來因為他們發出求救的訊息他們求助無門所以才會轉到我們這裡來那如果剛剛部長有這麼明確的一個說法我們希望可以盡速的去採取營救的行動因為像韓國一樣因為我們不要只敢對中共講"},{"start":7373.853,"end":7380.998,"text":"只有敢對他叫囂韓國那時候他們直接對柬埔寨或緬甸像這些詐騙集團像這些園區他們發出的怒吼是說不可以動韓國人不然雖遠必誅所以如果我們敢有這樣的魄力我們的國人才有機會才有希望這個部分我們把個案再交給外交部再請部長這邊可以協助盡速處理因為每一條都是很重要的人命"},{"start":7404.713,"end":7408.634,"text":"好謝謝那先部長先請回我請蔡局長委員好局長好今天在媒體上面有一則訊息大概就是針對我們軍情局跟荷蘭可能有一些在情報上面的一個交流可是這個算是情報洩漏還是"},{"start":7433.439,"end":7460.644,"text":"什麼狀況 局長有掌握今天的這個軍情有看到一早上我注意到也請軍情局可能要再徹查了解一下狀況另外跟委員補充我們立刻啟動我們在網路上查找溯源的一個結果跟委員做個報告那大概這一次最早傳散的是一個一次性的帳號那有在傳散這個資訊所以我們一方面會請軍情局做內部的調查二方面也會比對網路傳散的網絡是不是有一些刻意的操作"},{"start":7461.263,"end":7476.086,"text":"他雖然被刻意操作可是因為這是事實這個部分才是很也是很嚴重我現在要提出來探討的是今天因為荷蘭他本來在歐洲就是被中共鎖定滲透點的國家之一所以"},{"start":7476.867,"end":7482.135,"text":"這個包含包括埃斯摩爾半導體之前它有機密外洩的事件中共的那個使館系統性的滲透荷蘭的一個政界或者荷蘭內部也多次公佈反間諜報告直接點名中國"},{"start":7492.108,"end":7511.364,"text":"在這個部分中國的情報單位在荷蘭活動是非常頻繁的這個前提之下我們的軍情局的人員居然不是到安全的或中立的第三地而是直接到歐盟就荷蘭這個本土去做這樣的一個交流在交流這幾天的過程當中每天被記錄下來的也非常不堪這個部分我們也請一併調查"},{"start":7516.308,"end":7519.75,"text":"可是這個部分我們看到的我們也比較擔心的這個顯然可能不是因為像我們剛剛提到的軍事情報它比較會在安全第三地比如說像泰國新加坡阿布達比或者塞浦路斯等等這些地點"},{"start":7534.298,"end":7554.077,"text":"他可以直接去這裡我們看到這一次外洩的手法雖然是同一個帳號這個也顯示其實他們指向台灣的利益鏈啦這個部分因為他不是軍事情報這個如果說中共要做這樣子的一個曝光其實他只要把軍事的這個交流情報洩露出來就好了"},{"start":7554.397,"end":7561.298,"text":"可是這一次包括我們商務情報人員的名稱科技單位接觸的人員包括行政人員海外面談對象都一起暴露這個顯然中共想要針對台灣的商業情報系統做一個反情報的攻擊這個部分我們也請國安局應該要確切的掌握而且應該要怎麼樣做後續的處置局長您現在接下來可以怎麼做"},{"start":7583.431,"end":7598.571,"text":"早上今天我跟軍情局局長提醒他要儘速的來進行內部的調查到底是人安的問題還是治安的問題另外在船上的部分也會來溯源知道他那個操作的手法以及可能背後的目的我們一起一併來做一個完整的了解"},{"start":7598.831,"end":7602.154,"text":"因為時間的關係在這裡我們最後提醒也要求一定要去徹查的部分就是軍情局為什麼不是做軍事卻跑去做科技跟商業情報這個最大的弊端是什麼因為軍事情報通常我們這些相關的情資通常是由美方跟盟邦的系統去取得"},{"start":7623.411,"end":7633.434,"text":"那這一次我們自己去做因為台灣真正缺的或者最弱的最容易被卡脖子的就是科技供應鏈跟商業安全情報像比如說尤其像艾斯摩爾 光科技出口管制 稀缺材料等等那這一次由軍情局直接介入在這個相關的情報交流裡面它會產生的可能會有一些利益輸送的弊端這個部分我們也請"},{"start":7651.421,"end":7663.159,"text":"國安局這邊去看看後續應該要怎麼樣防堵或者為什麼這麼做把所有的相關的內容可以提供給委員會我們做一個比較全面性的了解跟調查再跟委員報告謝謝"},{"start":7683.89,"end":7693.512,"text":"因為國安局蔡局長在11點以後另有要工請假由張元斌副局長代理備詢我們現在請賴氏寶委員上台質詢稍等一下 因為我想問你這個國安局蔡局長還有外交部林部長一起"},{"start":7713.479,"end":7727.425,"text":"好 請蔡局長 林部長先請教那個林部長或者蔡局長回答可以的我們現在賴總統提出1.25兆的軍購案可以不可以換得賴總統過境美國"},{"start":7731.358,"end":7750.809,"text":"這個是兩件事情啊當然是一件事情啦 怎麼是兩件事情有關係啦 這當然是台美的關係都是很穩定中在發展可是賴總統到現在為止今年就沒有沒辦法去過境沒過這很大的事情對外交部很大的事情對不對那個蔡區長要不要補充一下這件事情"},{"start":7752.815,"end":7775.821,"text":"總統出訪行程主要是由府方跟外交部在規劃那有確定的話 宣布之後我們會提供危礙的機制好 那我記得蔡局長也有參加台美的關稅這個會談 最早的時候有提供資訊給前線的談判團隊參考你就去一次是不是我去前線提供資訊給談判團隊參考你總共去幾次 去一次"},{"start":7777.869,"end":7785.198,"text":"幾次我不方便跟委員透露但我跟委員說明的是我的功能跟角色是站在國安局 國際關稅 政府提供資訊好 那你看喔這個這個現在剛才這個張委員問了我就是問這個問題啊我們軍軍局跟河南之間的"},{"start":7797.014,"end":7817.331,"text":"群職的交流怎麼會全都錄啊包括前國安局長陳明通去訪問泰國夏威夷全都錄你們有沒有感覺我們的偵查能力很差啊國安單位啊我在想你這個蔡局長你出國是不是也被掌握有沒有"},{"start":7817.771,"end":7837.129,"text":"不會 我們都很小心那也謝謝委員關切國際情報交流過程當中要注意保密機敏性的問題那我剛剛有跟馬委員報告那軍情局今天早上的這個新聞我們有請軍情局來做一個比較全面的調查跟了解那到底是什麼對 要等調查結果出來才知道看是人安的問題 治安的問題還是有其他的因素"},{"start":7838.41,"end":7855.737,"text":"你想一想我就想說陳明通他是國安局長他去了哪裡都被掌握我就想說蔡明彥局長會不會你去哪裡被掌握只是他還沒有跟你公佈而已會不會你也已經被掌握我們很小心不公佈而已謝委員提醒我們都很小心很小心"},{"start":7858.752,"end":7867.494,"text":"那個我再請教這個看哪位可以講這個外交部的林部長說中日的爭議一年內不會落幕你是用什麼觀點來看不會落幕因為這是外媒訪問我想說這個事情可能會有延續一陣子才會穩定下來"},{"start":7882.828,"end":7896.119,"text":"為什麼講一年呢?不是半年呢?不是兩年呢?不是三個月呢?當然是基於我長年的研究,我實務的經驗他們之間的爭議會一直上去嗎?爭議會一直上去嗎?我想我們是期待能夠把它冷卻下來,避免身高衝突到失控"},{"start":7906.707,"end":7930.857,"text":"但是也要各方的努力所以台灣方面你看我們的回應都是基本上不想說去造成新的爭論但是我們的立場也很清楚同樣的我想日方也是那中方呢看起來他們有比較大的動作不過我想這站在他們的角度來看"},{"start":7931.717,"end":7944.987,"text":"他也不一定是希望這個衝突升高也想要把他這個東西能夠控制下來我的觀點最主要是其實這個持續升高衝突甚至到失控這是不符合任何一方的利益"},{"start":7945.575,"end":7948.357,"text":"可是一年很長欸你講出來是一年內中共關係都緊張我們這裡也緊張喔因為這個東西你要知道中共政權它有個週期性它除了外交也有內政的考量所以它現在已經對於像這個出去旅遊 遊學或者是貿易或者是這個所有的關係現在都停了"},{"start":7972.264,"end":7976.547,"text":"那我看委員是專家啦 這個要再恢復是需要時間的恢復需要多少時間就是恢復正常啊要多少時間 一年委員 高健呢不是 你講一年時間是你講的 不是我講的我就問你 你憑什麼講這個啊為什麼要拖這麼久啊來 蔡局長講一下吧 蔡局長你掌握的訊息更多"},{"start":7996.523,"end":8008.915,"text":"不會 外交部掌握你同意一年嗎外交系統掌握訊息很全面啦那我們這邊的訊息也會跟外交系統跟外管所以你可以完全同意他的我們尊重外交部的評估我們尊重外交部的評估尊重不一定同意喔對吧"},{"start":8011.144,"end":8020.946,"text":"是不是 我講你心裡話尊重 不同意啦不一定同意啦一年太久啦那一年怎麼會這麼久的對不對 比如說這個 部長啊中國明年舉辦APEC他也希望大家來對啊 所以怎麼可能拖一年對不對 拖一年就到12月了APEC 他明年的APEC怎麼舉辦所以你這樣一年叫做青菜公共咧啦憑感覺 憑你的feel"},{"start":8036.29,"end":8040.592,"text":"憑第六感毫無根據委員請議然後也說明我的我們這樣的一個判斷對不對你既然扣到明年他要舉辦APEC怎麼可能拖一年誰知道隨便想說膝蓋想也知道這個叫一年你這一年就隨便講講嘛"},{"start":8055.299,"end":8081.385,"text":"對不對當然我知道你心裡希望他一直扯扯一年的隊伍可能比較好這個觀念是錯的一年算是快的喔一年是快的喔那APEC他不要辦了他辦一樣還是會施壓日本啦只是說這個升高不利啦大家一起來能夠把情況控制下來這是符合各方的利益那我們都沒有角色扮演"},{"start":8083.314,"end":8091.642,"text":"我們都沒有角色扮演整個題目這是中日之間 但也涉及台灣我們當然有角色 台灣就是主要講台灣對不對 我們要講出我們的那個好 那個請蔡局長講一下好不好外面一直講說二屋的二十八條和平方案大陸會對台灣提出對台的和平方案有這回事嗎"},{"start":8108.327,"end":8132.061,"text":"我不知道委員這個比照是根據什麼樣的媒體外媒這樣講啊外媒美國你隨便彭博社什麼的各位說明一下俄烏的二十八條和平方案是美方針對各方的意見來做一個評估提出來的而且過程當中還要再跟烏克蘭俄國以外歐洲其他國家來討論相關的細節所以它有它形成的背景"},{"start":8132.481,"end":8144.85,"text":"那跳躍式的又把它跟台灣串聯在一起中間需要有一些邏輯上的鏈結那外面的一些評估我們尊重啦但是就政策的評估面來講兩者之間的這樣的類比它可能缺乏一些比較強的東西你也想得到這個時候他怎麼會提出來他早就提出來啊"},{"start":8151.134,"end":8170.763,"text":"這裡面因為這個俄烏即便是國際的這些強權介入地下的希望俄烏趕快停下來才有這個法律批評方案老共對台灣不是這樣的一個情況啊他怎麼需要提現在提什麼方案不需要啊誰也知道他要提什麼的他早就講了一直講一直講"},{"start":8173.024,"end":8182.108,"text":"對不對這部分尊重委員的評估不是 我要聽你講啦不是尊重我評估啦你來就是要說啊 對不對所以外媒講一堆這個東西我就覺得這個怎麼會有這樣的一個講法我就覺得好奇怪因為老共就不希望有外國勢力介入台海的問題嘛這個很清楚就一說就打死啦 對不對所以怎麼會有說比照這個來提出這個對台的方案我覺得比較奇怪我覺得"},{"start":8200.477,"end":8205.82,"text":"這個國安局這邊可以把它講清楚了好 謝謝也謝謝委員的指教好 謝謝好 接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢"},{"start":8231.266,"end":8232.45,"text":"主席好 麻煩請外交部長謝謝請林部長"},{"start":8240.629,"end":8264.597,"text":"部長好委員好先跟你講一個你聽起來應該會很高興的消息因為你們外交部次長吳志忠在接受媒體訪問的時候他說林佳龍是歷任三位外交部長最花心力在邦交國的部長所以非常有信心我們現在邦交國都不會變但反過來講就是前兩位就不怎麼樣我去看了一下你的前任是誰"},{"start":8267.042,"end":8285.603,"text":"是吳釗燮是吳釗燮前面是李大維對吳釗燮他就是當了六年斷交八個國家原來是因為他沒有像你這麼把心力放在邦交國所以我不知道說是不是如果他跟你一樣這麼用心在邦交國上面台灣就不會斷交這麼多國家你覺得"},{"start":8289.543,"end":8316.29,"text":"這是事後的觀點我想每一個當下我們的外交部長都希望能夠維持邦交至少有一個主觀的評論是說他沒有像你這麼把心力放在邦交國可能他比較放在非邦交國但是部長你覺得邦交國重不重要你覺得很重要那為什麼吳昭介他斷交八個國家還可以繼續做六年"},{"start":8317.642,"end":8345.921,"text":"我是不太知道我們現在國家的外交政策到底怎麼樣斷交也沒什麼關係我們有榮邦計劃不只是要固邦還要甚至拓邦不然你很厚道你非常厚道不願意所以雖然外面傳得沸沸揚揚但是你都不願意對吳釗燮的批評但是次長就講了實話我講這樣子是因為我覺得邦交我認為是重要的現在不是說只是把邦交國守住而已我們還要拓展"},{"start":8346.874,"end":8362.46,"text":"那現在洪都拉斯到底我們現在我們國家有希望去跟洪都拉斯建交嗎有希望嗎因為兩位現在領先的總統候選人都公開的表達他如果當選總統要跟台灣恢復邦交所以我們希不希望"},{"start":8363.18,"end":8388.427,"text":"我們希望我們希望嘛有學者講說洪都拉斯其實是在等台灣提出條件你們有掌握到這樣的訊息嗎就是他在等我們提條件我們也有準備條件還是怎麼樣還是我想是基於平等互惠的原則來發展兩國的關係因為他也是有比較嘛因為以前跟我們有邦交的時候跟現在中國跟他答應了都跳票"},{"start":8389.407,"end":8415.981,"text":"那這個他這個為什麼他的那選舉就這樣子這個是多數民意支持我知道我現在問我們外交部的態度啦因為有學者講說有外交學者講說他們在等我們開條件所以我們也會希望說用什麼方式跟他們接觸把他們拉攏過來我們一定是基於就是說對他有幫助對我們有幫助嘛我知道部長我們現在有沒有準備要去跟他們接觸嘛因為我們有外交學者在說都有準備已經準備了是不是"},{"start":8418.53,"end":8447.609,"text":"一直都在準備中一直都在接觸中接觸中一直都在接觸中然後今天我看到外交部發言人在媒體報導很酸很酸說哎呀這個紅國經貿失衡都是因為這個中國大陸沒有善意沒有履行承諾還導致這個狀況很慘我是在想說外交部講這種話適合嗎我覺得一般人是可以但外交部你畢竟"},{"start":8449.23,"end":8476.815,"text":"說這種風涼話然後去去這個酸你可能想要爭取的邦交國這樣妥當嘛好像義父就你活該啊誰要你要跟我斷交活該現在知道吃到苦頭了吧蝦子也賣不出去啊我們看到那個自由時報常報導嘛白蝦都賣不出去嘛還有經濟很慘啊但是有外交部的發言人代表中華民國政府去酸洪國洪國說你活該啊做出錯誤判斷這樣適合嗎 部長你覺得"},{"start":8479.524,"end":8495.677,"text":"我們過去跟邦交國網特別是宏都大使有我們的台灣經驗跟模式現在讓他們很懷念啦相對中共的一帶一路這個我都知道不只是白瞎他給人家請消我知道你要講什麼啦產業都我知道 我也認同好不好 我也認同就是說我們國家做得很好那中國大陸沒有做好但是由我們的外交部來講說你們活該啦沒有吧"},{"start":8508.006,"end":8523.552,"text":"大概就是這個意思啊那是你的解讀啊沒有 媒體報的喔媒體報那你如果你覺得不對你要澄清喔因為你用那兩個字媒體用很酸喔然後後面提到紅國經貿失衡然後是因為中國都沒有履行承諾意思就是你現在那麼慘這個話很客觀啊"},{"start":8525.296,"end":8544.221,"text":"失衡就是因為中共大量的傾銷把他整個經濟都打垮了沒有啦你現在要去跟人家建交我剛剛講了嘛你也想去建交嘛然後在建交的時候就說你看你就是因為當初沒有跟我們斷交啊然後你以為他會對你好他也沒對你好啊這是他們總統候選人講的"},{"start":8546.221,"end":8574.379,"text":"不是啦這個人家自己可以講嘛我們適合講嗎我們適合講嗎你現在要去跟他建交你想要跟他建交準備要跟他建交然後還要先酸他一下你活該喔還是我比較好為了像委員剛剛講的我覺得外交如果我們是要善意的這種情樂的話少講一點情樂的話少講一點我覺得委員剛剛講的還滿持平的那句話說什麼失衡啊然後沒有履行承諾這個"},{"start":8576.417,"end":8599.506,"text":"我覺得我們自己可以這樣但外交部你現在是代表國家要去跟他們建交我覺得這一種去酸你想要潛在結交的對象我是覺得有待商榷我是同意我們跟對方是怎麼樣互惠共榮這個是最重要的我們現在也戰狼外交就對那些曾經離開過我們像洪蘇拉這種"},{"start":8601.603,"end":8626.237,"text":"我覺得也沒必要這樣啦台灣還是友善然後是一個和親然後跟大家交朋友的國家啦不要用這種方式啦台灣是一個良善的力量愛好和平的民族啦所以我覺得這種酸話少講一點啦然後再來就是當然除了邦交國之外大家也是很關心美國的關係嘛"},{"start":8627.677,"end":8643.666,"text":"那部長你有沒有覺得川普上任之後對台灣確實跟拜登時期是有差我就講一個比如說美國1961年那個時候有一個總統撥款權可以不用經過國會同意就直接可以援助軍援之類的"},{"start":8644.727,"end":8660.547,"text":"本來台灣沒有但2022年的時候拜登就把它納入在2023到2024的時候就有宣布19筆軍援甚至軍購可是川普上任之後像有4億美元的軍援就被否決了免費的就被否決了"},{"start":8661.488,"end":8679.017,"text":"那美國政府為什麼川普為什麼跟拜登會有這樣落差這個是在你的任內我剛剛肯定你對於幫交國很努力可是好像在對美關係上面就比較差那到底是為什麼其實如果你現在來看川普第二任的第一年他也對台軍售了"},{"start":8680.017,"end":8695.888,"text":"然後也簽署了就是台灣保證旅行法案所以外面有一些過去的這些不確定性我覺得現在也都確定下來免費軍援的部分免費軍援的部分把它取消因為那個是拜登總統任內他當然是用軍援的方式也列入但是你剛剛講的包括有一些這個項目現在也並沒有說否決只是說它的輕重緩急"},{"start":8708.536,"end":8723.532,"text":"就否決啦 現在就否決啦那個其實是先前的項目在進行中我覺得不用自我感覺良好啦因為剛剛賴斯堡委員也有講到說外媒有報導說這個中共為什麼會提出一個類似的台灣方案出來"},{"start":8725.953,"end":8752.504,"text":"那我覺得當然那個您剛也說那是無稽之談對可能是無稽之談不是我說的是國安局長說的我沒有問到OK好國安局長說的但為什麼大家會這樣覺得呢就是因為川普任內確實跟之前美國政府很多做法不一樣而且是對我們朝向比較不利的方向那如果我們還是一直自我感覺良好的話大家會擔心說會不會跟烏克蘭一樣就是最後會被川普要求去簽那個和平什麼二十幾點計畫"},{"start":8753.686,"end":8772.981,"text":"所以這部分我覺得大家要務實面對務實面對川普總統對印太的重視是有過之而不及希望責任分擔也不只針對台灣日本韓國都是一樣你現在講的都是你的主觀看法我剛剛舉了很多客觀事實我剛剛也舉了很多客觀事實所以各項你都要評估啦好謝謝"},{"start":8774.986,"end":8785.904,"text":"好謝謝事實上我們比日韓付出的更多這個也請外交部也要掌握謝謝接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請張祺凱委員上台質詢"},{"start":8805.555,"end":8809.318,"text":"謝謝 請林部長有請林部長柏定 喂好我剛去美國叫巴拉圭回來這個國會外交鐵人行程長剛好很重要 這個效果很好效果不錯 對 效果滿好的那我們看到了我們進見了這個巴拉圭的總統還有跟他們的"},{"start":8834.747,"end":8837.153,"text":"這個兩院的這個議長都有碰到外交部長他們對"},{"start":8838.493,"end":8864.053,"text":"我們外交部還有駐外人員表現非常肯定我先講這個好消息我們有68年的邦交你好像是7月份也去過嘛是那一方面今天我要先問的第一個問題因為經過這一趟應該更確認我們的邦誼是非常穩固的雖然中國大陸那邊動作也很大巴拉圭這邊應該是穩固不會有問題"},{"start":8866.098,"end":8880.73,"text":"對應該沒有問題吧沒有問題好 那我這一趟去有兩個非常重要的議題第一個第一天碰到他們議長的時候眾議院議長他就提出來就是我們台灣到巴拉圭直飛的這個航線"},{"start":8882.219,"end":8909.796,"text":"現在太久了那個真的繞來繞去的繞到巴西又繞過來搞不好一天的時間那現在他們從議長一直到第二天進見他們總統連總統都開口了他們希望盡快可以從台灣經過美國然後可以到巴拉圭可以直飛那在參議院議長的時候他也透露了他剛好去美國訪問他說回來的時候他沒把這個事情跟美國講了外交部開始著手在推動嗎"},{"start":8912.386,"end":8930.817,"text":"這個是這樣 當然航空公司有他的規劃我們跟美國其實也都很支持巴拉圭我們當然會把它當作洽談的項目因為這個涉及到包括飛美國之後再延長到巴拉圭不然現在是要轉機兩次"},{"start":8934.546,"end":8953.604,"text":"這個非常重要啦對於兩邊民眾的這個交流往返很重要老實講他也牽涉到國安啦對不對 這個航線一開以後對於我們在發展這個中南美洲有很大的幫助這個要趕快去促成當然這個要很具體化我們是八位立委跨黨派一起去的我們現在也在推動這個事情請外交部也趕快可能要找我們的這個包括交通部共同來談這個事情這個非常非常的重要好"},{"start":8960.812,"end":8964.425,"text":"另外他還有一個很重要的就是他的台八科技城"},{"start":8965.68,"end":8993.068,"text":"我看你那邊去你好像提的就是說要把數位也帶進去嘛對不對對我們目前跟巴拉圭在這個醫療上面在教育方面在經濟的交流跟合作上面我覺得是合作非常好的所以榮邦計畫的示範都進行得很好包括台巴智慧科技園區包括你剛講的這個HIS這個醫療資訊系統就造成是他們是不能在這個南美是算是最進步的"},{"start":8994.508,"end":9018.881,"text":"到每個地方都有去看那現在看起來就是台八的這個科技大學是很成功的7年 對我們台科大跟他們幫忙逐漸建立起來那一年100個人招生100人可能太少了另外我為什麼講人太少就是因為我們去看了這個科技層的時候你說現在把它擴大嘛希望連數位都帶進去對不對 對那可是它真的雙手轉型 一步到位對…要轉型可是最重要是缺人啦"},{"start":9019.605,"end":9039.735,"text":"人才很重要所以我們現在為什麼台商開始投資巴拉圭就是因為您講的台巴科技大學七年然後現在已經有三年有畢業生雖然遇到疫情可是他現在的考試入取率是十分之一成為巴拉圭成為南美裡面數一數二的好學校所以不是只有招一百個人可以適度再增加所以我們今天訴求我們來研議推動我是訴求非常具體第一個就是台巴的經過美國指揮航線趕快要促成這是第一個那台這個"},{"start":9047.239,"end":9067.946,"text":"台八的這個科技層你說變成數位科技層那Call out趕快多包括這個人才培訓方面要多增加好不好好來那我上次質詢的特別問了一個點就是跟美國高關稅已經快定案了那上次我質詢說你有說要回去轉達我們要爭取的要降低這個逆差很重要就是買我們台灣要的嘛那就是核能啊美國一直在講說要賣給我們核能對不對包括核衛料都要處理啊"},{"start":9076.107,"end":9099.145,"text":"我是台美國會議員聯誼會的副會長是那美國那邊也表達信息說必要的時候他們都邀我們國會議員我們相關人都要實地去看他們說美國那邊都很他們這段時間核電廠嚴厲得非常非常多大概一年半兩年就嚴厲了沒有像我們台灣什麼到現在說還要搞不好還搞到三年四年然後人家有技術包括核威力都已經開口AIT的處長都開口也跟你講過了嘛 對不對你後來有去轉達了嘛有有沒有一些新的進度"},{"start":9105.919,"end":9111.581,"text":"我想已經促成雙方的主管機關的交流還有護法 都有這個要盡量再去促成這對我們降低對美國的逆差降低我們的關稅現在20加N然後又可以買到我們要的我們現在需要充分的電比較低廉的電美國又開口了連國會議員都要邀請我們去看了這個要快好不好我一個比較敏感你在國安會應該也有建議對不對"},{"start":9133.662,"end":9152.015,"text":"台美在能源上面的合作不管是投資或採購都是現在重要的項目我一個比較敏感的媒體怎麼會報導說你連國安會有時候都進不去啊開會不讓你進 沒有吧不會 有發生過這個事嗎你要去開國安會議因為有時候是有部長有時候有次長看他那個是那個什麼會誰出席"},{"start":9152.836,"end":9170.721,"text":"他們一直在講你跟吳釗燮的關係有發生之後你去開國安會他們不讓你進去開國安會嗎應該沒有吧沒有你要鄭重澄清喔還是有有過有過的時候誤會我是抱歉說這行為也知道不太可能的事情沒有啦我們來談一個最近很重要的就是中日的中日的這個關係它裡面"},{"start":9174.81,"end":9190.908,"text":"中日開始發生緊張的時候川普跟習近平通了電話然後後來川普又打了電話給這個高市早苗對你現在判斷你現在判斷中日這個關係的惡化是已經降溫了還是在升溫當中對台灣有什麼影響"},{"start":9193.712,"end":9209.152,"text":"我們希望說台海的和平跟穩定當然也跟中日的互動是有關係所以這件事情其實各方應該都是想要能夠把它管控不要變成一個失控的一個衝突的事件"},{"start":9209.853,"end":9229.209,"text":"但是每一個人也都有我想內部包括你看現在高市早苗的民調支持度這麼高七成五以上他也言所當然 他也是堅持可是那習近平對不對他也有他可能內政的考量他對外也有他必須要展現他這一個中國的這個領導人的這個形象吧"},{"start":9238.217,"end":9266.606,"text":"所以我是說這個衝突對任何人都沒有好處那台灣也是 我們也是希望能夠這個事情能夠冷卻下來所以你看我們的表達都是比較柔性的啊國際也很肯定啊 日方他們也覺得這樣的表達是很適合那中方呢 這個我想他也了解我們並沒有想要趁這個機會好像去把這個事件去怎麼樣升高衝突或什麼"},{"start":9267.227,"end":9289.812,"text":"高市早苗幫我們台灣講話這當然是好的啦當然是好的他民調雖然可是他民調國內雖然是高現在高達七成五你看哲倫斯基當初在剛這個烏鶴戰爭剛開戰了九成多耶可是現在是生靈塗炭啦我問你最重要的是說在高市早苗丟出來台灣有事 日本有事中日關係開始升溫的時候如果再這樣惡化下去對台灣會有什麼樣的影響如果再繼續惡化"},{"start":9294.033,"end":9305.64,"text":"因為中共對我們它現在對日本做以前都對我們做過而且現在一直在做而且新常態不斷地變本加厲所以我們整天都在承受中共的文攻武嚇我們就是要"},{"start":9307.682,"end":9330.629,"text":"和平靠力量台灣要展現自我防禦的這個決心跟能力至於說外交上怎麼樣跟理念相近國家一起去面對中國崛起的威脅特別是軍事擴張這已經不是所謂台灣問題是兩岸問題現在是中國成為全世界的問題那在印太第一島鏈大家必須要共同"},{"start":9331.569,"end":9338.411,"text":"怎麼樣能夠來管控現在最重要是如果中日的關係現在第一個程式是你要判斷它到底是已經降溫了對不對是高市長把話已經吞回去嗎向後轉嗎還是兩邊繼續是在衝突我跟委員報告這是第一個第一個到底在升溫還是已經降溫這是一個那第二個更重要站在台灣的立場保護人民的這個安全安居樂業現在你要建立總統或者國人要怎麼樣台灣人民要做什麼事情好 時間的關係部長請檢要回答"},{"start":9361.798,"end":9373.866,"text":"簡單講啦就是說其實習近平他也知道說這個事情他跟過去發生包括釣魚台的這個事件這個日本政府把他國有化他當時是在中國大陸裡面是有群眾"},{"start":9375.092,"end":9396.355,"text":"極惠抗議他在這些軍事行動上也比現在激烈所以我們也必須要去密切觀察講的跟做的然後這個情形因為身高衝突以這個情形這個階段來講並不符合我想包括日本的利益也不符合中國的利益"},{"start":9397.716,"end":9414.246,"text":"我認為我們台灣可以扮演一個就是能夠促進區域和平穩定的很正面的力量我是很熟的朋友啊你這個事情非常重要啦國安單位跟外交單位外交部一定要密切的這個注意好不好你可以的話你給我一個簡單的你應該我們以前常有那個嘛寫一個簡單的評估注意一下好不好好 謝謝接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢"},{"start":9435.097,"end":9457.295,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我請我們林部長請林部長好 部長好 先請教您一個個人的問題就是明年是縣市長的選舉您個人會有可能參選明年的縣市長選舉嗎"},{"start":9459.571,"end":9463.834,"text":"我目前沒有這個打算因為我現在的身分是外交部長是 沒錯我想請問 絕無可能嗎"},{"start":9468.991,"end":9494.239,"text":"我是認為這個問題我現在的身份不適合回答我現在是外交部長在備詢因為我們現在這麼關心所有的外交問題情勢瞬息外面還有包含我們的邦交國我現在就是把外交部長做好所以你目前只能回答我目前沒有這樣的考慮不是絕無可能是嗎沒有 我覺得這個問題有陷阱"},{"start":9499.165,"end":9520.65,"text":"沒有 我覺得這個問題你再回避你再回避這個問題因為其實很重要因為你現在是外交部長就因為你現在是外交部長因為你要選明年縣市長的話可能明年這個上半年你可能就離開外交部長的位置了是不是我把外交部長的角色做好做一天和尚 壯一天忠嘛"},{"start":9521.88,"end":9550.89,"text":"那另外部長就是有關於就是最近有關於我們的就是中日之間的關係還有面臨到台灣我們現在感謝這個高市這個他所講的就是對台灣的支持那我想請問一下您現在還會那個來鼓勵說國人要多到日本去觀光嗎"},{"start":9553.038,"end":9577.787,"text":"目前還是我知道當然我們出去觀光旅遊該注意的事情都要注意如果你要安排還沒有決定去處那日本會是一個很好的選擇第一件事情我個人認為我們對於日本表示感謝這個是合理的但是我們一味的去鼓勵國人到日本觀光"},{"start":9578.787,"end":9597.627,"text":"對於我們的國旅業者來講 對他們來說他們真的會非常的難過因為我們現在國旅非常慘第二點 日本最近流感啊 事實上是大蔓延 大流行所以我還是要提醒 提醒我們的外交部長"},{"start":9598.368,"end":9605.032,"text":"就是當你以外交部長的身份去鼓勵國人到日本觀光的時候還是請外交部長也能夠顧慮到你也當過交通部長嘛 對不對我跟國旅也很熟啊 我都很支持他們"},{"start":9615.479,"end":9632.887,"text":"當我們的政府如果一味的去鼓勵到日本觀光那麼我們國旅的業者那對他們來講是有衝擊的那另外就是日本最近這個流感非常嚴重所以我覺得也應該要去提醒國人好另外就是"},{"start":9634.608,"end":9653.87,"text":"就是現在我們一直在討論的包含洪都拉斯現在看起來我們比較樂觀因為現在青台的候選人雖然他們還在焦灼但是青台的候選人這兩位雖然他們兩個很接近但是應該基本上他們有可能出現"},{"start":9655.191,"end":9660.455,"text":"那所以很多人認為說那會不會呢就是洪都拉斯在政權變天之後能夠重新跟台灣跟中華民國能夠恢復邦交我不曉得對部長您的評估如果洪都拉斯他真的他的政權變天清台的候選人當選請問您有把握嗎你有信心嗎能夠重新恢復邦交"},{"start":9685.531,"end":9704.647,"text":"外交是兩國的關係當然我們是對於特定國家如果基於平等互惠的原則下來建立邦交的關係我們是會開放的態度而且很積極來推動所以我們會積極重新拉攏回來 對不對"},{"start":9706.653,"end":9713.856,"text":"我正在推龍邦計畫就是說有示範性比如說我們現在在洪都拉斯旁邊的瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯我們有龍邦計畫他們會看到所以我們以前是強調固邦我現在是強調龍邦我知道 我看到吳次長說你是現在歷任部長裡面最重視跟我們邦交國的關係的一個部長有人說他是不是在偷湊之前的吳釗燮部長"},{"start":9735.786,"end":9739.727,"text":"那我想請問一下過去吳釗燮擔任外交部長的時候他也在根據他的媒體的訪問他也說好多跟我們中華民國斷交的國家後來都後悔了都後悔因為後來發現跟這個中華民國斷交然後跟這個中華人民國建交也沒得到什麼好處可是問題是他還點名了好多個什麼馬拉威哥斯大黎加還有這邊一大堆叭叭叭叭"},{"start":9764.935,"end":9768.682,"text":"可是問題是 沒有一個我們的前邦交國回頭"},{"start":9770.798,"end":9787.627,"text":"目前為止 我們的困境就是我們斷交之後 他們回頭好難啊 是吧是不是 讓他們回頭很困難因為中共國際上的影響力很大那我請問一下洪都拉斯第一個 因為有白蝦問題嘛他認為台灣買的白蝦比較積極那只是一個議題 其實最重要的是中共的產品傾銷打擊他的經濟跟就業請問一下"},{"start":9799.264,"end":9813.414,"text":"如果洪都拉斯他變天清台的這個候選人當選美國會不會幫助台灣讓洪都拉斯重新跟中華民國建交您的評估是什麼"},{"start":9814.315,"end":9841.246,"text":"美國的態度當然現在很重視西半球包括國務卿Marco Rubio到瓜地馬拉也講說肯定他們跟台灣也是邦交但是我們能不能跟特定國家發展邦交關係還是取決於我們這兩國的我們自己的國家的利益跟民意的支持我們不能請美國幫助我們嗎那美國的態度當然多少會有影響可是過去的經驗也證明我們跟對象國家的之間能不能建立一起互惠"},{"start":9842.947,"end":9848.874,"text":"過去巴拿馬跟我們斷交的時候事實上美國並不希望巴拿馬跟中華民國斷交你應該知道只是後來還是沒有辦法阻擋但是至少當時美國表達態度希望巴拿馬不要跟中華民國斷交"},{"start":9860.424,"end":9876.202,"text":"那我想請問一下這一次川普大力的介入了洪都拉斯的大選好 當然他有他的很多的目的但是其中跟我們恢復邦交的部分你現在有任何的訊息或有任何的把握美國會幫助我們嗎"},{"start":9878.358,"end":9893.83,"text":"應該說美國在川普總統更重視西半球然後包括國務卿盧比奧他也是有這樣的一個背景所以這個是比較正面的這個環境但是我意思說要恢復邦交不是簡單的事情中共的影響力很大但是我是基於說如果兩邊的國家發展我們有龍邦計畫那我們就不用建立在過去的一種"},{"start":9903.637,"end":9923.314,"text":"比較屬於涉及到的一些大家批評的一些方式我們現在就是用這種方法在顧邦跟拓邦我們稍微站起來了時間到了但是你的回答表示你沒有信心所以我覺得可以做一個努力也請美國來幫助我們如果我們希望能夠試圖跟孔都拉斯恢復邦交也請美國拿出很明確的態度就如同當年的巴拿馬斷交一樣"},{"start":9930.18,"end":9940.485,"text":"拿出明確的態度來協助中華民國能夠重新讓我們把這個邦交國要回來可不可以可以好 謝謝接下來請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請李昆城委員上台質詢"},{"start":9959.713,"end":9961.998,"text":"謝謝主席我們請林部長"},{"start":9970.826,"end":9996.044,"text":"喂好部長好辛苦了今天早上就看到一個好消息就是美國的川普總統正式簽署了台灣保證實施法案那這是一個法案是那代表這一個美國行政部門已經接受國會的一個強制性的要求必須系統性的審查以及放寬長期以來對美台官方所互動所設置的種種規範跟限制那所以說這個法案"},{"start":9996.924,"end":10012.929,"text":"這一個通過之後那未來台灣跟美國的這一個行政部門官員的交流會不會就提升可以預期會有所提升因為他除了鬆綁交往的這個一些規定以外"},{"start":10014.215,"end":10043.042,"text":"也會定期的去審查他執行的情形因為這個是法案是有約束力的他不是過去說國務院的一套準則他這個是等於是參眾兩院通過了法案而且總統正式簽署的對那表示說未來因為我們現在是不是部長你可以到華府嗎沒有說不可以但是也許過去有一些默契一些限制但是並不是"},{"start":10044.764,"end":10060.063,"text":"如同就是說明文的規定現在因為有這個新的法案通過我想對於鬆綁正常的往來是一個很大的應該促進過去總統副總統國防部長外交部長行政院長"},{"start":10061.218,"end":10080.325,"text":"是不是都沒有辦法到華府過去是有這樣的一個某種的情形啦但是不代表這個是不行的現在又有法案做基礎我想台美雙方都會在這個新的法案基礎上去提升交往部長任內有到過華府嗎"},{"start":10085.064,"end":10112.006,"text":"這個我比較不方便這個OK 那表示說台美的一直有這個默契而且台美關係也越來越好那這個再請教一下部長這個您有接受這個專訪那有特別提到就是說本來賴總統在今年8月的時候要出訪這個巴拉圭 瓜地馬拉 貝里斯我沒有這樣提這個是外面媒體有一些報過但是一直沒有確定的事情這樣子 好"},{"start":10113.047,"end":10129.2,"text":"那所以說那您有提到就是說是不是有可能因為台美的關係會越來越好那所以呢這一個在不久的將來這個賴總統有可能會過境美國前往拉丁美洲的友邦訪問"},{"start":10131.161,"end":10155.148,"text":"是 因為我們如果要到拉丁美洲國家過去啦 都是過境美國嘛那如果有這樣的安排那它當然是其中的一部分可是至於什麼時候會有這樣的安排那這當然由總統府他們這個是會對外發言在外交部的部分我們就是持續去促進台美的溝通那建立互信的基礎"},{"start":10156.128,"end":10174.564,"text":"我想這個應該是常態所謂說元首外交的過境訪問是常態時候到了它就會出現的所以有信心在關稅的問題高一個段落之後有機會過境美國再前往我們的友邦來做訪問嗎"},{"start":10175.185,"end":10183.715,"text":"因為所謂的我們的元首出訪或過境都涉及到我們跟對方國家的適當的時間或什麼樣的一個活動那這個呢 就是"},{"start":10190.475,"end":10207.965,"text":"我們應該講說關稅也好國防的預算也好這當然都是呈現台美友好而且是合作的一個發展但是這個基本上不是不同的事情可是當然"},{"start":10209.346,"end":10237.384,"text":"美台關係在這一年來我們可以看到並不如有些人過去所擔心的會有所謂的這個疑美論或者是疑川論或疑賴論因為不只是這個法案連這個軍售美國也已經正式批准了第一批的軍售那台美關係的往來其實本來這一年來川普總統上任我們的溝通還有各種的這個協調包括"},{"start":10238.144,"end":10253.876,"text":"像涉及到的這種川習會啦或者是甚至這個川普跟高市首相的他們的電話溝通我們台灣都有相當的對情況的一個掌握那也跟美國有很好的溝通"},{"start":10255.097,"end":10284.164,"text":"那剛剛也很多委員在關心現在宏都拉斯正在進行總統大選的開票那現在比較親近台灣的兩位總統候選人都在領先那基本上不論是哪一位當選對於台灣應該都是非常的友善那所以大家也很關心就是說那是不是有機會台灣中華民國再跟宏都拉斯再恢復這個邦交關係因為不少人剛才提到我們現在不是只有榮邦也希望能夠透邦"},{"start":10285.465,"end":10310.282,"text":"其實我們台灣跟宏都拉斯過去的邦誼是很好的只是因為現在這個總統上任之後他做了轉彎但是大家也發現一比較之後還是台灣模式比中國模式好中國的那種一帶一路透過大規模的可能援助請消但是答應的這些採購也都沒有實現所以當然他們會有民意的變化"},{"start":10310.902,"end":10327.296,"text":"而總統候選人就基於爭取人民的支持就兩個領先的都是主張要恢復跟台灣的邦交我們就是以很正面的態度基於平等互惠的原則那我們都有跟各方"},{"start":10327.996,"end":10342.711,"text":"保持很好的溝通那也希望能夠來就是恢復我們台灣跟洪都拉斯的邦交關係所以我們外交部我們國安單位有做好準備了希望能夠恢復跟洪都拉斯的邦交對 其實我們都有"},{"start":10343.712,"end":10368.949,"text":"很好的管道跟這個其實是持續推動中才會有今天大家看到的這個結果那當然因為外交嘛又很多很多機敏性我們不方便在這個時候說不過這不是突然出現的事情那再請教一下除了洪都拉斯之外對巴拿馬的關係呢因為巴拿馬的國會議員也在11月的時候有來這一個台灣嘛對不對對 9位議員我也有接待"},{"start":10369.769,"end":10388.202,"text":"對 然後對巴拿馬的關係是不是也在交問當中因為根據媒體的報導我們駐巴拉圭的大使有提到說巴拿馬國內也正就加強與台灣的關係的可能性展開討論不過這是大概貿易這方面的那請教一下台灣跟巴拿馬目前的關係"},{"start":10389.818,"end":10417.342,"text":"台灣是巴拉馬第二大出口國我們的貨運包括尤其是航運公司使用巴拉馬運河也是算是最多的我想包括長榮跟陽明海運等所以實質的關係很密切當然因為現在巴拉馬運河的管轄權還有涉及到簽約都涉及到美中之間的角力"},{"start":10418.603,"end":10438.281,"text":"連帶會影響巴拉馬趴在這方面但跟我們有很多交集我們也期待能夠台巴關係能夠正常化方向來發展好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席接下來請林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":10447.827,"end":10472.945,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長請林部長部長好 喂好我常常講其實如果我們國家找一個部會是天天在打仗的話其實應該是外交部不見得是國防部啦你們不管是駐外人員或在台灣24小時當班的大家辛苦那早上我聽到現在其實有點感想"},{"start":10473.886,"end":10495.853,"text":"我們常常感覺到中國天天威脅我沒有看到有些人要求我們要求中國要有態度倒是現在中國要求圍堵日本現在在台灣要求我們的政府好像要跟著圍堵日本中國傳染病沒辦法治療的一堆現在要我們提醒我們的遊客日本有流感這相當有意思"},{"start":10498.875,"end":10524.345,"text":"國際上我們台灣有機會的時候要美國把態度拿出來可是天天都在質疑美國可是圍堵傷害台灣的中國從來沒有看到苛責或譴責這個是台灣的特殊現象我還是回到我們的主題啦兩個選舉牽動到地緣政治一個是聖文森聖文森的新民主黨完成大選大概也在11月底"},{"start":10525.265,"end":10545.204,"text":"那我看到台灣的媒體報導說這一個在野黨贏得大選之後他們的總裁他們的主席他名字取得很好God Win Friday我看到這個名字我還在多查幾次這個上帝會贏然後Thanks God It's Friday那他會接總理"},{"start":10546.144,"end":10572.443,"text":"已經接了對 接總理那接總理的時候大家都質疑說新民主黨好像曾經主張要跟中國建立邦交但我去查了我不知道我查了對不對事實上這一個在野黨說要主張邦交的是上一個黨魁那是在2016年就外交部掌握的資訊目前我們跟盛文森的邦交以及新任的總理對"},{"start":10573.484,"end":10575.895,"text":"台聖之間的邦交關係是什麼態度"},{"start":10577.514,"end":10600.771,"text":"我們的大使已經去進見新的總理也遞送我們賴總統的賀函他也表示感謝請我們大使傳達至於委員真的是關鍵很多人把2016短暫任期的一個總裁而且這個黨魁其實不一樣而且他在社會上沒有得到支持是現在這個Friday他其實從競選期間都沒有去對"},{"start":10605.054,"end":10632.171,"text":"所謂台灣中國這個問題上我就是想要聽到外交部做這樣子的分析也就是說大家說盛文森危險了選舉就把他跟洪都拉斯類比其實我有一個基本態度不要以為選舉的語言馬上可以變成外交的紅利沒那麼容易地緣政治也沒有那麼單純但盛文森的NDP這個新民主黨上一次表達要跟中國所謂的建立邦交是在2016"},{"start":10635.213,"end":10645.745,"text":"2016小學六年級的小朋友都讀大學了那個是蠻長一段時間那現在這個Friday呢他在選舉當中曾經有人質問他對中國的態度他不表態"},{"start":10646.95,"end":10665.383,"text":"他不表態而且中國下了重本他還是不表態所以我覺得外交部對這邊當然要審慎的去密切的觀察而我們跟盛文森是建立在理念相近台灣不花大錢買邦交國我們是真實的去關心這個國家達到雙贏那剛才好幾個委員也問到了事實上"},{"start":10666.244,"end":10688.371,"text":"邦交的狀態有很多維繫的方法其中元首外交出訪外交是一個重要的方式因為它不僅是維繫的方式元首能夠出訪能夠到那一國其實也是一個政治上外交上的表態那就外交部現在有沒有規劃我們賴清德總統出訪邦交國"},{"start":10690.678,"end":10714.407,"text":"我們當然都有在評估因為我們的邦交國分散在不同州比如說我們去年是安排賴總統所謂的智慧永續繁榮南島之旅那就是三個邦交國那其他現在還沒有到訪的當然包括加勒比海跟中南美洲另外非洲等等所以委員提到的這個都在我們的規劃當中有規劃中我問一個問題"},{"start":10717.208,"end":10725.315,"text":"你們認為出訪的最佳時機點是在2026年的1月2月3月4月5月6月我列這6個月這個季度"},{"start":10728.055,"end":10754.033,"text":"會不會是適合的時候第一個各國他們都有自己的內政或有節慶或是什麼樣的大型活動那當然有時候過去有就職典禮我更直接一點就是人家總理就職嘛那對盛文森來講是一個喜事嘛還有我們的包括建交幾週年啊或一般的國事訪問也都有訪問盛文森最佳的時機明年初會不會是個好的時間點"},{"start":10756.257,"end":10775.837,"text":"我想都是好時機啦因為對我們邦交國來講特別是在因為加勒比海有三加一國我想三加一國是三聖再加海地海地現在情況還是比較混亂你如果要安排去海地我個人一定堅決反對這個安全考量但我現在是要講說因為如果去三聖去這些國家"},{"start":10776.943,"end":10804.188,"text":"那過境美國是必然那過境美國有很多選擇像我們12月3號華航成為全亞洲第一個直飛太陽城鳳凰 鳳凰城鳳凰城太陽城他們球隊鳳凰城那鳳凰城是亞利桑那我們有我們有國軍在那邊受訓那紐約也不錯紐約也不錯就是說我覺得國人關心的就是我們元首外交要發揮到恰到好處在"},{"start":10805.968,"end":10826.727,"text":"川普跟台灣的對等關稅即將conclusion應該已經接近要揭露的時候我們的邦交國也選出新的在野黨當選總理事實上也是值得強化維持關係的穩定外交部在短期內有沒有可能安排總統出訪我最後這個問題要請教你"},{"start":10829.149,"end":10844.504,"text":"因為現在是12月嘛因為聖誕節剛過然後聖誕節到了這個時候各國的情形都是比較濃郁農曆年前有沒有可能農曆年前有沒有機會這都不能排除但並沒有決定說是什麼時候"},{"start":10845.55,"end":10865.792,"text":"決定的是美國的規格還是盛文森我們要到訪國家他們的安排因為他們的元首或者因為這個涉及到因為總理的這個國家比較不是一個正式這麼大的就職典禮總統是啦不管是瓜地馬拉或巴拉圭所以這個都涉及到到訪國他的適當的時機的安排"},{"start":10867.994,"end":10880.219,"text":"我相信我們倆都樂見越早越好農曆年前的話其實是個不錯的選擇謝謝委員的建議下一題我們來到宏都拉斯宏都拉斯現在國會是128席 90席"},{"start":10883.28,"end":10907.489,"text":"右派的兩個政黨聯盟取得他不只是達到修憲的86席的門檻他可以決定等於是宏都拉斯所有的重大決策所以國會是一個面向他們現在總統的開票第一名跟第二名這個Esfura跟這個Nasrallah兩個人好像差0.02%差幾千票而已現在開票已經到最後結果了嗎"},{"start":10908.357,"end":10929.682,"text":"還沒有 還沒有最後結果那第三名大概確定第三名第三名不會有什麼改變了啦因為開票已經六十幾趴了對 第三名大概那個十幾趴追不上來了那就可以想見現在是右派親美親台的政黨控制三分之二的國會席次"},{"start":10930.683,"end":10952.93,"text":"而一二名在競逐最後總統結果兩位都是親美親台派當然第一名那個是川普總統直接助選的那我們當然不用急得過度樂觀在外交上做表態但我要請教外交部外交部其實你們都有很多套劇本目前是不是已經至少跟國會端有沒有展開接觸了"},{"start":10955.853,"end":10980.534,"text":"個別的國會議員當然因為其實洪都拉斯跟台灣斷交也才兩三年的時間都有很多聯繫往來的關係那剛剛講這兩位領先的總統候選人我們也都有溝通互動的機會他們有沒有提出在長遠的經濟理念合作上的想法來尋求跟我們的共識"},{"start":10981.755,"end":10989.238,"text":"我想大方向他們對台灣模式尤其我們的榮邦計畫當然現在是很了解也覺得是聽說他們有興趣我的意思是說"},{"start":10991.015,"end":11010.448,"text":"我們兩個都算記過嘛他在選舉要開什麼支票要幹嘛的時候他一定要確保說可行性嘛所以我在詢問的是這兩位總統這個潛在的可能當選人以及國會的前兩大主要政黨控制九時席跟我們國家外交部相關單位有沒有在選舉前選舉後展開接觸"},{"start":11013.491,"end":11026.61,"text":"選舉前是都有互動也都有我想對於這個因為他們也是公開的表達要跟台灣會晤邦交我們當然會主動去聯繫可是具體的方案要等到他票開完"},{"start":11028.655,"end":11041.823,"text":"總統當選人 這個時候就排紅合作的項目因為他施政的重點是什麼那我們跟他的合作的項目你們有沒有派比較高階的外交官現在進駐到紅國"},{"start":11044.397,"end":11072.253,"text":"我們沒有辦法在洪都拉斯因為我們現在那邊沒有這個設代表處我們現在還有人在那裡嗎並沒有正式的因為我們沒有NGO的模式我們是應該講說以這個區域中美洲來講我們都持續有專人他們現在尖峽是由哪一國尖峽瓜地馬拉來尖峽洪都拉斯所以我們現在有沒有人在洪都拉斯委員這個就是說我當然不方便這樣講但是應該是保持很好的溝通互動"},{"start":11073.919,"end":11095.876,"text":"因為美國通過台北法案的時候就把他們的外交工具箱的工具跟我們台灣的外交箱的工具綁在一起來維繫邦交擴展外交這個是當時通過相當好的法案現在美國跟台灣有沒有就紅國的局勢根據這個台北法案展開相關的合作的初期的計畫"},{"start":11096.636,"end":11125.267,"text":"其實台美在第三國關係不管是外交或者是經貿其實都有持續在就是說討論嘛那以這個Marco Rubio國務卿他到了瓜地馬拉他就肯定他跟台灣維持邦交他在召集很多中美洲或阿拉伯海的時候的一些會議也都是這樣子講那當然這個也會起一些比較正面的鼓勵的效果美台已經基於美國正式通過生效的"},{"start":11126.027,"end":11138.218,"text":"台北法案其實它全名是台灣什麼外交關係強化法案縮寫是台北法案已經基於這個法案台灣跟美國之間就洪都拉斯的局勢有進行一些初期的"},{"start":11139.124,"end":11164.365,"text":"的溝通合作我們台美之間都有針對第三國的關係的發展進行溝通好這個是重要訊息因為事實上美國川普總統現在非常重視中南美這一塊對重視到都派航母在加勒比海了所以這一塊其實是他重視的重點那我最後一個問題要請教是以宏都拉斯來看我們台灣應該要看誰是下一個宏都拉斯"},{"start":11165.086,"end":11174.738,"text":"宏都拉斯為什麼會產生這麼大的政治的變局來自於第一個經濟的問題而經濟的問題來自於中國不僅承諾了支票跳票"},{"start":11175.868,"end":11202.278,"text":"而且還大量的倒貨把生產過剩的東西倒貨回去害當地國家中小企業整個崩盤這是宏都拉斯的模式也就是中國承諾跳票經濟下行第二個其實潛在的因素是美國跟這個國家的關注度跟關心程度以及台灣過去跟他們在經貿合作上的關係這三個指標如果把它撈出來呢我這個表其實沒有寫全部啦"},{"start":11202.958,"end":11224.635,"text":"除了宏都拉斯巴拿馬巴拿馬現在有基礎建設停擺美國警告巴拿馬不可以把運河讓中國的公司接管所以巴拿馬也跟中國解約了解放軍不可以到那裡所以巴拿馬符合我剛才講三個指標裡面有兩個聖多美我就不多談了其他一個國家薩爾瓦多"},{"start":11226.359,"end":11243.687,"text":"薩爾瓦多Rubio親自到那裡薩爾瓦多用美金薩爾瓦多現在主要的外匯來源包含接收美國的重刑犯來自於美國所以我們台灣的外交部有沒有去評估這樣子的變局下一個宏都拉斯可能是哪一國"},{"start":11245.374,"end":11256.33,"text":"我們當然都在評估也都會為未來發展關係做準備不過目前外面看到因為洪都拉斯大選巴拉馬斯剛選過去年就是今年"},{"start":11263.766,"end":11289.606,"text":"巴拿马是去年巴拿马去年选举对对去年那哥斯大黎加是明年二月所以这些选举时程会影响到哥斯大黎加派了情报人民来台湾做情报训练当然是台美哥斯大黎加巴拿马这次九个国务院出国出国前还发新闻说中国叫他们不要来这个都是一些迹象但我讲具体一点我最后这个问题就收尾了萨尔瓦多"},{"start":11290.836,"end":11297.759,"text":"原來的薩爾瓦多市的市長他在選舉的時候就說他當選要跟台灣恢復邦交"},{"start":11299.241,"end":11323.314,"text":"他那時候認為他去挑戰執政者說你們這個背棄台灣是錯誤的決策換他當選了而薩爾瓦多後來川普總統2.0的時候跟薩爾瓦多簽訂了協議所以他外匯來源現在主要靠美國那薩爾瓦多這個現任的總統有沒有表達跟台灣進行更深一點更高層次一點的互動就你的了解有沒有"},{"start":11325.215,"end":11351.933,"text":"就想 我想選舉時候的這個意見跟選後的作為因為中共也會失利嘛所以我們這種外交上面的情形除了雙邊關係也涉及到第三方包括美國的角色 確實但是我們怎麼樣提供一個好的模式也就是我們現在在推龍幫計畫我們不是用什麼其他過去大量的援助而是用怎麼樣去部長我的意思是說薩爾瓦多我們還有人在那裡嘛"},{"start":11353.274,"end":11380.569,"text":"我們也沒有代表處在那裡比如中美洲當然中美洲有一些集體的包括中美洲銀行或其他的我們還是有些人員跟人脈在那裡有 人脈是有什麼形式留我們就不在這邊討論但我的意思是說Rubio重視薩爾瓦多親自跑了那一趟然後才去瓜地馬拉誇獎瓜地馬拉跟台灣的邦交維持是一個正確的模式然後美國簽了一些約一些資源在那個地方"},{"start":11381.169,"end":11392.801,"text":"而就我們了解薩爾瓦多的總統當選後也有曾經表達一些想法所以我的意思是說我們外交部就薩爾瓦多目前的狀況有沒有什麼可以跟納稅人報告的一句話"},{"start":11394.439,"end":11415.932,"text":"中美洲我們是當作整個區域因為這是川普政府重視西半球可是我們先鞏固瓜貝兩國然後現在就是有選舉產生新政府的我們當然會如果他有意願我們是會積極來跟他談所以薩爾瓦多的部分就是容我這裡就不方便正式的對外說明"},{"start":11417.052,"end":11434.712,"text":"但是他是整個區域我們都一併考慮的我們當然很多戰線但你知道嗎我們的防守面現在比較小中國的防守面比較大所以有這些訊息的揭露有時候換他們疲於奔命也不是壞事啦但是我們原來外交都多交理念相近的朋友"},{"start":11435.152,"end":11458.644,"text":"不要撒大錢撒大幣去買邦交我們不幹這個事但在有機會的時候千萬不要因為害怕我們多了一個更深層更高階的關係所以中國採取報復式根本不要擔心這個因為你什麼都沒做他照樣要摧毀你的邦交關係所以那個顧慮是不用的我只要提醒這一點對那至於其他這些相近的國家有機會請外交部加油好不好好 謝謝我們來努力好 謝謝"},{"start":11462.196,"end":11467.659,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢你好我們請部長請林部長"},{"start":11497.304,"end":11507.051,"text":"部長好我也好部長今天的這個題目以上跟這個日本首相高市早苗的言論那還是有直接的關係"},{"start":11508.396,"end":11529.627,"text":"那我們也看到說這個中方中國他不僅僅是在一般的外交場合上面來抵制日本甚至包含娛樂相關的都還是在全面性的打擊那有人說這種是不去區分民間跟官方全面性的來去降低對日方的關係"},{"start":11530.948,"end":11545.661,"text":"但是又有一則新聞他是說說這個中共的外交部的這個亞洲司長劉司長在鏡頭前他就雙手裝著放在口袋裡面訓話但是轉頭又跑去跟日記來說這個請安心在中國經營"},{"start":11547.253,"end":11561.716,"text":"我想請教部長現在對這邊的局勢到底中方是在玩哪一手的策略我實在是看不太懂可不可以簡單講一下他們是會區分民間跟官方還是全面性的來去降低他們對日的關係"},{"start":11563.826,"end":11584.542,"text":"報告委員 中共對於這次高市早苗首相的國會的談話他們的反應是很強烈那當然這個也升高了衝突造成這個其實日本人普遍更支持高市早苗首相以外對於中國尤其是這些"},{"start":11586.424,"end":11597.113,"text":"他們就更有不安全感甚至不管是說涉及到所謂有人提到所謂不穩定的合作夥伴這都是風險所以這個確實影響很深遠那他們要趕快要來安撫"},{"start":11601.096,"end":11622.592,"text":"不過我想這個效果是有限的因為這個是全面性的讓大家覺得中國是一個有很高風險的地方跟他做生意也要有避險的準備這個影響是很深遠很全面性的不是少數這一兩個安撫動作這個可能也是在做做知識事實上是無效的"},{"start":11623.294,"end":11649.537,"text":"包含日本的僑民在中國受害以及包含日本的這些企業三不五時就要面對這一種的壓力政治上面的壓力 政治上面必須要表態我想這些不只是對日企其實對歐洲的企業也好都是相對的不友善的所以國人經商或者是要到中國去經營這些企業我覺得也是要有務必也要有一些風險的觀念"},{"start":11651.118,"end":11675.075,"text":"那到这些跟中国相关的国家也要有风险的观念因为随时都有可能会被逼迫政治表态或者甚至不做政治表态就会被这些竞争的同业甚至是在中国在地的这些企业来去被表态然后来去涉及这些都是有的所以对日本的这种做法那一定都会"},{"start":11677.176,"end":11697.771,"text":"放在我們身上 如法炮製甚至是更嚴重因為中國對台灣的打壓從來是不遺餘力的但是我還是要再次提到就是說我們在看對日的關係的時候我們當然是因為有中國的存在所以有些時候我們會把中國納入考量"},{"start":11698.351,"end":11720.928,"text":"但是我們跟中國之間的關係它不應該是對日之間它是我們的羅盤是日本跟台灣台灣跟日本那不是因為中國說你對中國好所以我們就不跟你好或者是要告訴日本的政要你要跟中國比方說我們剛剛看到像這一位這一位政治人物也是立憲民主黨的重要的一個國會議員岡田克也"},{"start":11723.72,"end":11739.847,"text":"他的立場大概是比較對中國比較好但是我們的角色還是要很清晰就是說我希望說未來包含立憲民主黨的這些各個不同的政黨你們有跟我們不同不一樣的這種國家利益的考量但是不要以中國作為這個座標"},{"start":11742.088,"end":11766.649,"text":"你要思考的是跟台灣之間的關係不要說因為你要跟中國好那中國的官員給你施加壓力你就要故意刻意的來去疏遠台灣這是不對的那我們在今年對日關係的時候也是一樣我們現在已經看到說過去這十幾年我們跟自民黨的關係是不斷的在上升跟保守派的關係也是不斷的在上升這是一個很值得嘉許的一個做法所以我們現在看到包含高市總理他這個"},{"start":11768.45,"end":11795.505,"text":"第一位女性首相誕生之後對台的關係是不斷的在上升那就是過去的投資過去的這種人脈經營它是經過一代人的努力慢慢的來開花結果所以外交上面沒有什麼一個什麼外交材質不是 它是一群人長時間的系統性的努力然後才能夠有這樣子的結果所以我們對外交系統的每一位外交人員的培養也好我們要注重"},{"start":11795.905,"end":11812.209,"text":"就是長時間有些人可能是就像李大維前部長有提到有些人可能適合在某一個場域他可能適合在東京他可能適合在首爾他們在這個時間長期的經營這些人脈投資在這些上面"},{"start":11812.549,"end":11840.623,"text":"慢慢的都可以成長起來然後跟各個不同的政黨它的關係就會更好所以我們更信義的來看台日關係我們現在看到說贊成這個高市首相他的存亡事態的這種說法跟台灣有事日本有事的說法它的比例當然是自民黨是58.3%日本維新會是64.7%國民民主黨是57參政黨是80.7%就是基本上都是高於反對派"},{"start":11841.303,"end":11867.125,"text":"但是在一些無黨籍的反對派有超過五成那我們仔細去分析的話你可以看到說高齡女性無黨他們有一種焦慮他們覺得說他們怕被捲入衝突那這個時候就是我們的外交管道可以去做的事情我們要針對的不是只有支持我們的還有不是那麼支持我們的我們要跟他們講清楚說明白說台灣不是在跟日本一起要捲入衝突相反的我們是希望透過清楚的"},{"start":11867.805,"end":11890.11,"text":"有效的嚇阻有效的軍事跟安全的投資來去避免戰爭的發生因為只有不投入安全不投入軍備不投入預備的人才會去invite就是會招引甚至是在邀請衝突跟戰爭我必須要強調什麼樣的時代投資國防最好的時機點是什麼是什麼時候"},{"start":11892.321,"end":11919.904,"text":"我自己覺得投資國防最好的時機點要嘛就是10年前第二個好的時機點就是現在為什麼要講10年前這個意思2014年的時候發生什麼事情烏克蘭克里米亞2014年之前的這個烏克蘭的投資在國家安全的總預算大概是小於2%GDP小於3%小於2%的GDP他是遲到克里米亞之後他們才開始逐步的來去提升大概3到4%"},{"start":11921.189,"end":11935.763,"text":"那3到48的GPD夠不夠我想還是不夠所以說2022年的時候在俄羅斯來參與的時候參與作戰的時候他們必須要一鼓作氣來去提升到甚至是高達36 37%所以我們現在的國防的總預算也是我們現在的國防總預算為什麼有些人說5%有人說要10%就是因為這5%可以避免我們未來"},{"start":11946.013,"end":11966.923,"text":"要像烏克蘭直接在暫時狀態的時候要提升到37% 38%所以這就是對最好的投資跟最好的保險那這是我們必須要對我們自己的負責同樣的日方也是當我們共同的把我們對自己的安全的承諾提高的時候我們要跟剛才提到的這一些日本的年輕世代的"},{"start":11968.143,"end":11986.755,"text":"這個執政聯盟以外對我們支持還有包含對我們比較沒有那麼支持的高齡女性無黨的要講這些東西要告訴他們清楚說我們為什麼要談論防衛為什麼我們要談論安全正因為我們不想讓日本跟台灣共同被捲入衝突所以我們必須要做好準備"},{"start":11987.455,"end":12000.43,"text":"所以這個部分是不是可以請部長來跟駐日的辦事處也來強調我們已經有鞏固了這一塊了我們已經鞏固包含保守派執政聯盟對我們的這種肯定那剩下的另外一派我們可不可以再去來加強我們的論述"},{"start":12005.768,"end":12021.321,"text":"我們希望維持台海包括印太的和平跟穩定但是中共的威權擴張尤其是這個軍事上面的威脅是日增啦不只針對台灣也針對日本菲律賓"},{"start":12022.222,"end":12043.355,"text":"所以這些理念相近這個在第一島鏈的國家怎麼樣大家有一個共同來促進區域的和平穩定第一個當然是嚇阻因為中共是迷信他的武力的那如果真正中共有一些侵略的行為那我們必須要有辦法去擊敗他"},{"start":12044.922,"end":12071.895,"text":"這個大概就是美國的印太戰略我們台灣也要盡我們的角色所謂責任分攤所以不管是我們的國防預算的增加不對稱戰爭的這個準備或者是全社會防禦任性面對到所謂的這種混合戰灰色地帶的操弄我想台灣跟日本有很多可以交流合作的地方在這個基礎上因為我們的台日的民間的"},{"start":12073.235,"end":12088.844,"text":"關係也非常的好所以我們在這一次是用一個比較透過人民的自發的行動不管是旅遊啦或者是購物啦等等來呈現那我們可以看到高市早苗首相他眼所當眼當然這個"},{"start":12091.496,"end":12114.61,"text":"這個剛講到的這個岡田克也他說他有點意外後來這樣的發展因為他是比較被認為是比較稍微親中的那這個怎麼樣這個事情發生之後台日反而利用這個危機啊可以促進彼此共同未來來這個因應這個面對中國的一個挑戰這個也是我們現在的"},{"start":12115.39,"end":12131.957,"text":"台日可以化危機為一個強化關係的一個契機的時刻謝謝部長我最後補充幾句就是說我認為這是轉機它是一個轉機因為很明顯的就是大部分的日本的這種一般民眾到這個"},{"start":12133.938,"end":12150.593,"text":"政黨的人士基本上都是很認同台灣有事跟日本有事的那我們更加吸引的是我們不僅僅是要好我們還要更好我們要讓那些目前無法理解這個狀況的人也能夠更理解所以我們差異化的告訴他們說之所以投資防備就是有備則無"},{"start":12152.114,"end":12168.84,"text":"有備則無有備的話就不會有衝突那如果你沒有做任何的防備做任何的軍備你是在邀請你是在invite衝突所以我認為這個東西可能未來我們可以再去跟這個日防接觸的時候包含自由"},{"start":12169.54,"end":12183.935,"text":"比較非保守派的我們也可以進入這一個部分因為不管是自由派還是保守派對國家安全來講我們都有共同台日都有共同的利益那最後再講一句話就好了這個之前這個今天的一些質詢的時候有一些朋友"},{"start":12184.916,"end":12201.558,"text":"同事我們的這些立委的同事有提到說這個烏克蘭這個森林塗炭好像說一直在提到說烏克蘭發生在烏克蘭的可能會發生在台灣台灣要成為下一個烏克蘭我覺得這個還是要再次在這個機會在外交委員會還是要提到這一點就是說"},{"start":12202.859,"end":12218.722,"text":"引發衝突的開啟侵略者的就是俄羅斯這件事情是很清楚的怎麼會變成把這種轉嫁給烏克蘭好像是烏克蘭做錯了什麼一樣這是不對的正是因為當初沒有足夠的投資讓俄羅斯認為他們可以為所欲為"},{"start":12219.523,"end":12237.726,"text":"所以因為沒有做好足夠的防備沒有備就會有類似這樣的衝突這個我是要再強調然後烏克蘭的冒險我們現在還有這個相關的冒險的人員在那邊那我們當然是外交部應該是目前沒有任何的住處跟派員但是可以從冒險的這一個進入看說怎麼樣在"},{"start":12238.647,"end":12254.318,"text":"無人載具上面的這種產業上面的跨就是像你提到的榮邦彼此之間的利益來去思考一下這部分我還是希望可以跟經濟部或者是外貿協會來討論一下怎麼樣擴大我們在烏克蘭的能見度謝謝接下來請謝一鳳謝一鳳謝一鳳委員不在請吳思瑤吳思瑤吳思瑤委員不在請洪孟凱委員上台質詢"},{"start":12274.71,"end":12281.278,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請外交部林部長跟我們國安局副局長國安局副局長"},{"start":12285.135,"end":12304.989,"text":"部長好 副局長好部長身為中華民國一份子對於外我們一定是以中華民國的主權為最高優先國內我們可以有政黨競爭 政黨合作但國外一定我們對外都是以中華民國我想不管是執政黨不管是在野黨都是一樣的方向 對吧"},{"start":12307.39,"end":12331.56,"text":"不管是我們今天的專案報告有講說美中領導人或者是說最近不管是高市早苗首相他的一些談話等等的部分其實也都讓外界更關注中華民國未來的一個發展那我們真的不希望說台灣未來在美中台三角關係裡面變成是一個被測試或被試驗的一個方向所以我先請教一下國安局"},{"start":12333.103,"end":12349.188,"text":"管局今天有提到你的報告我也特別看了一下在美中兩大強權的領導人他們的一個對話會談完之後其實有講到一個後續的發展就是明年四月川普總統承諾是說他會再回訪北京"},{"start":12349.824,"end":12369.023,"text":"那以及外界大家也看明年2026年有兩次重大的國際會議有可能兩位總統領導人以及其他各國元首都會在碰面所以外界就推估如果以合理的判斷來講的話也許明年會有三次美中兩大強權領導人會在碰面"},{"start":12369.944,"end":12389.751,"text":"我們針對到明年至少最近的一個半年的左右時間明年4月以前這樣子的一個密集見面對於中華民國到底是更加安全還是更加危險跟委員報告我想美中的領導人密切的見面事實上我們看到他們是在管控爭議事實上"},{"start":12391.351,"end":12411.518,"text":"我們的判斷是在管控爭議但是它的競爭本質事實上是難解尤其在地域的一個區域安全還有相關的一個關鍵稀土礦產這樣的一個競合下事實上各自都看到在減輕對方的依賴所以說這個戰略的本質事實上是"},{"start":12413.359,"end":12428.126,"text":"他的立場是不一樣的但是風險管控是要做的避免誤判所以美中兩國領導人密集的互動事實上對於我們認為這是一個比較有助於穩定的一個現象"},{"start":12428.746,"end":12442.611,"text":"所以對於我們中華民國的主權也好或者是我們2350萬人的安全來講其實相對會安全因為美國政府從川普總統也好或者是他們"},{"start":12444.251,"end":12470.613,"text":"國務院相關的一個官員都表達對台的一個立場跟支持是不變的而且關切台海的一個核穩所以這個部分來講美國目前那個立場府會還有那個行政部門事實上對台海核穩這個立場是相當堅定好 所以我們國安局的你們也有做過研判就認為是說如果明年有那麼密集的他們的會面的話其實對台灣來講是相對來講是安全"},{"start":12472.334,"end":12490.386,"text":"這是你們的研判我們認為對於兩國之間的一個穩定是有幫助但是會不會這樣子反而更加深了台灣變成是他們談判過程之中有可能被操弄的議題而導致於我們未來的走向不是由2350萬人決定而是由美中兩大強權來決定"},{"start":12492.288,"end":12511.004,"text":"這個部分目前我們看起來美國我剛剛跟委員報告了他們不管是聲稱或者行動我們看起來都朝向就是台核穩的立場所以就這部分後續的美中的一個互動跟觀察我們本局還會持續在做掌握好 但是本時要先提醒"},{"start":12511.704,"end":12533.456,"text":"不管美中兩大強權他們要怎麼見面怎麼談但是我們的聲音跟意見絕對不能忽視而且台灣從過去到現在大家講台灣未來的走向發展一定是由台灣2350萬人共同來決議這是無庸置疑來 那外交部長林部長本席今天白日滿地紅"},{"start":12534.899,"end":12558.864,"text":"11月的時候也跟我們江副院長還有我們幾位包括外交部優秀的同仁也都有前往我們的前往美國以及我們到我們的友邦巴拉圭來做一個訪問國會外交三天的一個成果可說非常的豐碩因為跟他們的總統以及參眾議院議長以及國會議員都有做密切的交流那我想請教一下在過去我們也看到"},{"start":12560.148,"end":12571.328,"text":"巴拉圭的這個總統他就自己有講過說賴清德總統會前往巴拉圭那到目前今年已經快要年底了到底賴清德總統有沒有相關的出訪計畫"},{"start":12573.977,"end":12600.732,"text":"目前並沒有定案什麼樣出訪的計畫但是一切我們都在評估規劃 8月林佳龍部長帶團前往巴拉圭的時候巴拉圭的總統是有在他的社群媒體平台上面講嘛那我講說我還是再次強調對外我們都是一致中華民國所以如果說我們友邦的總統居然有發布說我們賴清德總統要前往出訪但是到8月到現在已經"},{"start":12601.232,"end":12608.707,"text":"快半年的時間了今年已經要過完了那到底賴清德總統沒有辦法出訪的理由是我們沒有要過去"},{"start":12609.842,"end":12632.521,"text":"還是我們想過去但是中間有環節出了問題還是過境美國的時候我們沒有辦法接受出訪都涉及到各方包括我們跟邦交國或過境那也涉及到當地國的包括內政外交所以我是覺得很多的評估規劃是一定要進行可是到決定"},{"start":12633.341,"end":12652.157,"text":"評估規劃有沒有包含要宣布才算是成立總統府他們一向都會有針對出訪的事情在適當時候會對外宣布我們的評估規劃有沒有包含美中兩大強權的領導人明年4月可能會再見面"},{"start":12654.459,"end":12671.752,"text":"這個已經是公開他們川普總統也講了我們當然會把他納入未來在外交上面的一個重要的因素所以因為他們兩大領導人明年可能會有三次的碰面變成是我們要去我們的友邦還要看人家的臉色"},{"start":12672.54,"end":12700.515,"text":"不只 我想關鍵是說我們跟我們友邦之間是適當的時機我想我們這次前往的時候因為我們是跨黨派的委員一起去我想大家都很期待包括台巴之間可以透過元首外交來深化關係我們去訪問或他來訪問也都是選擇這個都是雙邊在推動邦誼的時候的一個安排可能的方案這次我們前往是跨黨派的委員"},{"start":12701.515,"end":12725.708,"text":"民進黨三位 國民黨三位 民眾黨一位效果非常好 而且真的引起鞏固邦交跟拓展邦誼起很大的貢獻也因此我們才會更想要確認的是外交部你們積極有在安排我們都是隨時我們對像我們這幾個邦交國的關係都是很緊密那適當的時機 如有出訪的安排緊密是您說的 我們也希望真的緊密"},{"start":12726.468,"end":12733.984,"text":"那因為巴拉圭也是我們南美洲很重要的一個邦交對也是現在唯一的邦交那我們想請教另外聖路西亞"},{"start":12735.274,"end":12758.24,"text":"這個邦交國到目前為止因為這兩天我相信也有媒體問到因為他們的執政黨又去勝選而且增加了國會的席次有沒有鬆動的可能我們目前掌握的狀況沒有我們跟聖路西亞的關係都很穩定中成長因為既有的這個現任的總理他這一次在國會的席次又增加跟我們邦誼鞏固"},{"start":12758.74,"end":12770.137,"text":"好 我們還是希望對外一致中華民國立場所以在國內我們可能有政黨立場的不同但對外就是中華民國這點是我們一起努力的目標好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":12777.486,"end":12795.701,"text":"好今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃城委員陳永康委員林益君委員邱志偉委員提出書面質詢請列入紀錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分"},{"start":12796.241,"end":12814.55,"text":"或要求補充資料者請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員有約定期限者從其所定另外在這裡也請外交部可以提供我們有跟就是提供烏克蘭援助的這個部分那透過捷克的這個NGO團體那今年是第三年嗎今年第三年"},{"start":12826.363,"end":12840.617,"text":"第二年而已嗎那今年已經到年底就把這兩年的這個援助的一個內容還有我們的進度提供給本席好不好謝謝那本次會議到此結束散會謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}