{"error":false,"id":["170933"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170933,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170933","日期":"2026-08-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"公聽會-2026080659","會議代碼:str":"舉行「《氣候變遷因應法》碳費徵收、減量誘因及溫室氣體管理基金運用制度」公聽會","屆":11,"會期":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"公聽會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「《氣候變遷因應法》碳費徵收、減量誘因及溫室氣體管理基金運用制度」公聽會）"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-08-12T09:59:55+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-12T10:09:13+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:18","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/628bd009efdbf44b6dd8201d88a99a0fcd854716b345d19173231451c13a983d0e7e88b7d6e8a5905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:59:55 - 10:09:13","會議時間":"2026-08-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「《氣候變遷因應法》碳費徵收、減量誘因及溫室氣體管理基金運用制度」公聽會）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.49471875,"end":6.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.15596875,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.60159375,"end":30.827843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.945968750000002,"end":31.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.025968750000004,"end":33.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.79784375,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.83284375,"end":70.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.63159375000001,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.24721875,"end":95.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.62784375000001,"end":104.53784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.75721875,"end":107.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.71034375,"end":126.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.07034375,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.88721875000002,"end":144.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.54846875,"end":190.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.49909375000001,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.81534375,"end":201.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.44659375,"end":247.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.98784375000002,"end":260.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.54721875,"end":277.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.92846875000004,"end":287.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.46284375,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.59784375000004,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.96221875000003,"end":333.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.42596875000004,"end":338.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.98221875,"end":342.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.93096875000003,"end":342.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.96471875000003,"end":348.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.30971875,"end":355.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.23284375000003,"end":360.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.86471875,"end":370.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.65659375,"end":379.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.54971875,"end":392.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.08346875,"end":395.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.56409375000004,"end":407.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.78159375,"end":433.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.37659375000004,"end":438.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.64596875,"end":440.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.63721875000005,"end":446.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.03284375000004,"end":463.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.04284375000003,"end":477.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.96471875000003,"end":513.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.67221875,"end":546.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.15659375,"end":550.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.23596875,"end":555.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.6909687500001,"end":556.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.3659687500001,"end":559.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0,"end":7,"text":"在場的專家學者還有我們的行政部門"},{"start":7,"end":11,"text":"那我想今天要談碳費"},{"start":11,"end":16,"text":"我想碳費的提升跟優惠的一個匯率的檢討"},{"start":16,"end":19,"text":"今天在場很多專家學者都會提到"},{"start":19,"end":20,"text":"我也很認同"},{"start":20,"end":22,"text":"那我要切入角度"},{"start":22,"end":25,"text":"就如同我剛剛前面開場提的"},{"start":25,"end":29,"text":"因為我自己來自社會福利工作者"},{"start":29,"end":31,"text":"那我一直在關心"},{"start":31,"end":34,"text":"針對環境議題的這個課題"},{"start":34,"end":35,"text":"我比較關心的是"},{"start":35,"end":39,"text":"到底下一代承擔多少的氣候成本"},{"start":39,"end":42,"text":"還有這是在碳費在收的時候"},{"start":42,"end":45,"text":"到底對於我們的弱勢勞工"},{"start":45,"end":48,"text":"跟從社會福利的角度來看的話"},{"start":48,"end":51,"text":"到底有多少人會受到影響"},{"start":51,"end":53,"text":"甚至我比較堅持的是"},{"start":53,"end":55,"text":"不遺落任何人的一個"},{"start":55,"end":57,"text":"這是一個公正轉型最基本的要求"},{"start":57,"end":61,"text":"同時也是我在政策規劃的價值立場"},{"start":61,"end":64,"text":"因為我始終認為把弱勢的人"},{"start":64,"end":67,"text":"放在政策設計的起點"},{"start":67,"end":71,"text":"最後守住的才會是多數人的生活安全"},{"start":71,"end":76,"text":"碳費是讓我們排放者付出代價"},{"start":76,"end":78,"text":"促使企業去檢探"},{"start":78,"end":82,"text":"可是如果成本去做轉嫁的時候"},{"start":82,"end":85,"text":"譬如說商品的價格提高"},{"start":85,"end":88,"text":"甚至電價提高"},{"start":88,"end":90,"text":"影響的是誰?影響的是弱勢"},{"start":90,"end":93,"text":"如果說在做收碳費"},{"start":93,"end":95,"text":"企業在做轉型的時候"},{"start":95,"end":97,"text":"某一些的高風險的勞工"},{"start":97,"end":98,"text":"所謂高風險的勞工"},{"start":98,"end":101,"text":"因為我們畢竟碳費的優惠"},{"start":101,"end":103,"text":"並沒有綁勞工的權益條款"},{"start":103,"end":107,"text":"所以會不會有減薪、裁員"},{"start":107,"end":109,"text":"甚至造成失業"},{"start":109,"end":111,"text":"所以最後這些的承擔"},{"start":111,"end":114,"text":"就會是勞工跟我們的弱勢家庭"},{"start":114,"end":115,"text":"所以我們不能只問說"},{"start":115,"end":118,"text":"到底收了多少、減了多少的碳"},{"start":118,"end":121,"text":"更要問的是誰先受到衝擊"},{"start":121,"end":124,"text":"還有誰又能夠得到真正支持"},{"start":124,"end":126,"text":"因為我想這不是抽象的擔心"},{"start":126,"end":129,"text":"今年首期單費已經完成繳費了"},{"start":129,"end":131,"text":"我們現在看到簡報上"},{"start":131,"end":133,"text":"剛剛也是有報告說"},{"start":133,"end":135,"text":"已經收到49.7億元"},{"start":135,"end":140,"text":"總共有461廠、240家的企業"},{"start":140,"end":143,"text":"這個金額49.7億"},{"start":143,"end":148,"text":"依法去納入我們的溫管基金來運用"},{"start":148,"end":149,"text":"可是審計部也指出"},{"start":149,"end":151,"text":"截至到今年的4月10號"},{"start":151,"end":154,"text":"我們的氣候變遷運營法的施行"},{"start":154,"end":156,"text":"已經超過三年了"},{"start":156,"end":159,"text":"法定的國家公正轉型的行動計畫"},{"start":159,"end":160,"text":"還沒有完成"},{"start":160,"end":163,"text":"國防費的4月、5月間"},{"start":163,"end":165,"text":"啟動的兩階段的意見徵詢"},{"start":165,"end":167,"text":"最新公開的說明"},{"start":167,"end":171,"text":"是在終整個部門的政策後"},{"start":171,"end":172,"text":"嚴厲行動計畫"},{"start":172,"end":174,"text":"已經超過三年了"},{"start":174,"end":175,"text":"換句話說"},{"start":175,"end":177,"text":"碳費已經實際收取"},{"start":177,"end":180,"text":"減碳工具也走在前面了"},{"start":180,"end":181,"text":"可是誰會受影響"},{"start":181,"end":183,"text":"由誰來做協助"},{"start":183,"end":185,"text":"而且資源如何送達"},{"start":185,"end":187,"text":"跟成效怎麼追蹤"},{"start":187,"end":190,"text":"我覺得制度仍在後邊來做刻補"},{"start":190,"end":194,"text":"可是實際上這些搞爆弱勢家庭"},{"start":194,"end":195,"text":"已經在承擔"},{"start":195,"end":198,"text":"勞工朋友也在承擔"},{"start":198,"end":200,"text":"這個碳費收取之後的"},{"start":200,"end":202,"text":"到底有沒有幫助到他們"},{"start":203,"end":204,"text":"接下來我就要談的是"},{"start":204,"end":206,"text":"我們的碳費跟節能政策"},{"start":206,"end":208,"text":"到底能不能走到弱勢家庭家戶"},{"start":208,"end":210,"text":"因為台大風險中心也調查"},{"start":210,"end":213,"text":"844戶的經濟弱勢家戶"},{"start":213,"end":217,"text":"它有22.75%不知道加電節能補助"},{"start":217,"end":220,"text":"22.27%知道"},{"start":220,"end":222,"text":"卻因負擔不起區域費用"},{"start":222,"end":225,"text":"因為我們都有所謂的自付配殼款"},{"start":225,"end":227,"text":"而且未更換二手"},{"start":227,"end":229,"text":"老舊的跟損壞的加電"},{"start":229,"end":232,"text":"所以59.83%為租屋者"},{"start":232,"end":234,"text":"所以資訊跟支付能力"},{"start":234,"end":235,"text":"跟租屋的協調"},{"start":235,"end":238,"text":"能來把這些家庭擋在門外"},{"start":238,"end":239,"text":"那我要強調的是"},{"start":239,"end":241,"text":"未來修法我的修法方向"},{"start":241,"end":243,"text":"還是基於碳費收入有限"},{"start":243,"end":248,"text":"就應該優先投入最難自行調適的人"},{"start":248,"end":250,"text":"國外不是沒有經驗"},{"start":250,"end":251,"text":"我想剛剛湯主任也講了"},{"start":251,"end":252,"text":"國外的很多經驗"},{"start":252,"end":253,"text":"那我們這邊你看"},{"start":253,"end":254,"text":"美國加州規定"},{"start":254,"end":256,"text":"碳交易的拍賣收入的"},{"start":256,"end":258,"text":"氣候投資至少35%"},{"start":258,"end":261,"text":"會要再提供給誰"},{"start":261,"end":264,"text":"提供給優先族群來受益"},{"start":264,"end":265,"text":"那這些人是誰"},{"start":265,"end":266,"text":"不利處境的社區"},{"start":266,"end":268,"text":"和低收入的社區"},{"start":268,"end":270,"text":"和低收入戶的家庭"},{"start":270,"end":273,"text":"那韓國也在2026年的"},{"start":273,"end":275,"text":"4月7號完成修法了"},{"start":275,"end":279,"text":"那將支持氣候危機的脆弱族群"},{"start":279,"end":282,"text":"納入到氣候應對的基金的用途"},{"start":282,"end":285,"text":"所以我覺得並規定"},{"start":285,"end":287,"text":"國家跟地方政府應該掌握"},{"start":287,"end":289,"text":"去處境提出應應的"},{"start":289,"end":292,"text":"氣候災害及延伸的資源"},{"start":292,"end":294,"text":"那我到現在還是看不出來"},{"start":294,"end":297,"text":"我如果剛剛講勞工會受到影響"},{"start":297,"end":300,"text":"那我們對於各產業減碳受衝擊的"},{"start":300,"end":303,"text":"勞工清測跟評估有出來了嗎"},{"start":303,"end":307,"text":"甚至我覺得今天優先補助企業"},{"start":307,"end":308,"text":"甚至有些"},{"start":308,"end":310,"text":"就企業主張要優先補助"},{"start":310,"end":312,"text":"在企業的減碳技術裡面"},{"start":312,"end":315,"text":"那到底勞工跟弱勢補助"},{"start":315,"end":317,"text":"會不會在你基金分配的時候"},{"start":317,"end":319,"text":"就變成是邊緣化"},{"start":319,"end":320,"text":"所以我看到台灣的"},{"start":320,"end":322,"text":"氣候變遷因應法"},{"start":322,"end":324,"text":"有把調適跟公正轉型列為基金用途"},{"start":324,"end":328,"text":"可是沒有訂定任何對弱勢的保障"},{"start":328,"end":330,"text":"甚至沒有要求地方政府"},{"start":330,"end":333,"text":"依弱勢的受益那個程度評分"},{"start":333,"end":334,"text":"所以我認為"},{"start":334,"end":336,"text":"我覺得嚴定補助機制的時候"},{"start":336,"end":340,"text":"應該把對不利處境群體的實質"},{"start":340,"end":342,"text":"支持列為評分的項目"},{"start":342,"end":344,"text":"而且碳費的支應的調適計畫"},{"start":344,"end":346,"text":"也應該公開我們的服務對象"},{"start":346,"end":348,"text":"甚至資源流向跟風險改善"},{"start":348,"end":351,"text":"應該讓碳費優先保護"},{"start":351,"end":353,"text":"最容易受到衝擊的人"},{"start":353,"end":355,"text":"才是符合氣候增益"},{"start":355,"end":360,"text":"而且也能夠提升我們的公共的信任度"},{"start":360,"end":363,"text":"那目前大家看到"},{"start":363,"end":367,"text":"115年度我們的溫室氣體的管理基金"},{"start":367,"end":370,"text":"編了1億4500萬元"},{"start":370,"end":372,"text":"來補助地方辦理氣候工作"},{"start":372,"end":376,"text":"減碳的永續加元跟高溫的防護地圖"},{"start":376,"end":378,"text":"公開的第二劑補助"},{"start":378,"end":381,"text":"也可見現是跟計畫跟撥補的金額"},{"start":381,"end":383,"text":"可是我們還是看不出來"},{"start":383,"end":385,"text":"就是服務的多少脆弱人口"},{"start":385,"end":386,"text":"風險是否下降"},{"start":386,"end":389,"text":"企業單同時也有同樣的問題"},{"start":389,"end":392,"text":"402廠已核定了自主的減量計畫"},{"start":392,"end":395,"text":"並取得優惠的費率"},{"start":395,"end":397,"text":"依法每月4月底應該要"},{"start":397,"end":399,"text":"提交前一年的執行報告"},{"start":399,"end":402,"text":"環境部應該在年底前去完成查核"},{"start":402,"end":404,"text":"可是我們現在看到平台"},{"start":404,"end":407,"text":"應該要主要公開的核定目標費率跟措施"},{"start":407,"end":409,"text":"都還沒有公開我們的年度報告"},{"start":409,"end":412,"text":"個別措施的預估減量"},{"start":412,"end":416,"text":"投入的成本跟首年度的查核的結果"},{"start":416,"end":418,"text":"所以公民團體還是很難"},{"start":418,"end":420,"text":"從這邊去看到"},{"start":420,"end":424,"text":"我們的減碳是不是如期的再發生"},{"start":424,"end":426,"text":"也就是達到目標冷媒"},{"start":427,"end":430,"text":"所以我覺得今年7月底發布的補助辦法"},{"start":430,"end":434,"text":"為名列我們的公正轉型的審查條件"},{"start":434,"end":437,"text":"而且還明文排除自主減量計畫"},{"start":437,"end":441,"text":"我覺得貸款信用保證與利息貼補要點"},{"start":441,"end":444,"text":"還是難以停留在草案"},{"start":444,"end":446,"text":"所以我們希望環境部這邊"},{"start":446,"end":449,"text":"是不是應該針對後續企業"},{"start":449,"end":451,"text":"跟地方補助的計畫公告"},{"start":451,"end":452,"text":"跟審查跟成果報告"},{"start":452,"end":455,"text":"都應該納入衝擊盤點"},{"start":455,"end":458,"text":"勞資跟利害關係人協調"},{"start":458,"end":459,"text":"勞動力轉型計畫"},{"start":459,"end":462,"text":"以及脆弱人口的收益指標"},{"start":462,"end":465,"text":"所以政府不能說只證明錢花了"},{"start":465,"end":467,"text":"更要讓社會看見減了多少"},{"start":467,"end":472,"text":"誰受到影響誰又能夠真正得到保障"},{"start":472,"end":473,"text":"最後我們還是期待"},{"start":473,"end":475,"text":"因為這個我已經質詢過"},{"start":475,"end":477,"text":"也跟環境部溝通過"},{"start":477,"end":481,"text":"是不是邀請國際委員來審查"},{"start":481,"end":484,"text":"因為的確我們的國際的處境"},{"start":484,"end":485,"text":"事實上受到限制"},{"start":485,"end":490,"text":"可是CRC CRPD都還是邀請國際委員來審查"},{"start":490,"end":491,"text":"這有什麼好處呢"},{"start":491,"end":493,"text":"因為第一個你可以邀請公民團體"},{"start":493,"end":496,"text":"一起來跟你確定整個的"},{"start":496,"end":498,"text":"目前的整個的狀況"},{"start":498,"end":501,"text":"第二個事實上也可以有國號部會"},{"start":501,"end":503,"text":"因為今天環境的治理"},{"start":503,"end":506,"text":"並不是只有單一的環境部"},{"start":506,"end":508,"text":"氣候的編遷的這些事實上"},{"start":508,"end":510,"text":"是要各部會一起來做"},{"start":510,"end":514,"text":"所以我認為這個應該要去執行"},{"start":514,"end":516,"text":"部長也有承諾說"},{"start":516,"end":519,"text":"接下來要邀請國際委員來做審查"},{"start":519,"end":522,"text":"所以本會期我大概也請部長"},{"start":522,"end":524,"text":"要先挹注資源來推動事辦"},{"start":524,"end":526,"text":"既然部長答應的話"},{"start":526,"end":529,"text":"我覺得應該要先去處理經費的問題"},{"start":529,"end":531,"text":"接下來我們會請環境部"},{"start":531,"end":534,"text":"要給我們明確的時程辦理的組織單位"},{"start":534,"end":537,"text":"跟經費規模來逐步補齊法規"},{"start":537,"end":540,"text":"建立政府正式回應跟後續追蹤"},{"start":540,"end":542,"text":"因為我覺得這不是單一次的國際活動"},{"start":542,"end":545,"text":"我們是希望能夠成為長期運作的"},{"start":545,"end":547,"text":"氣候治理的制度"},{"start":547,"end":549,"text":"那就要麻煩環境部"},{"start":549,"end":551,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":551,"end":554,"text":"好謝謝林育行召集委員的發言"},{"start":554,"end":558,"text":"下一位請台灣大學公衛學院"},{"start":558,"end":560,"text":"專門助理教授尚教授"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}