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ext":"在立法院這種無限延會的長度下"},{"start":497,"end":499,"text":"我們7月份本來要審查"},{"start":499,"end":501,"text":"那我看媒體報導的消息是"},{"start":501,"end":503,"text":"國防部在6月17"},{"start":503,"end":505,"text":"行政公告"},{"start":505,"end":507,"text":"你們要把軍事教育條例第8條修正"},{"start":507,"end":509,"text":"所以叫我們等你們一下"},{"start":509,"end":511,"text":"說7月份會來"},{"start":511,"end":513,"text":"進行相關的"},{"start":513,"end":515,"text":"修法"},{"start":515.56,"end":517.56,"text":"那我可以等你們這個"},{"start":517.56,"end":519.56,"text":"不版的方案出來"},{"start":519.56,"end":521.56,"text":"但現在已經到8月份了"},{"start":521.56,"end":523.56,"text":"現在進度到底到哪裡"},{"start":523.56,"end":525.56,"text":"因為上次委員交代完之後"},{"start":525.56,"end":527.56,"text":"其實部長回去就做了"},{"start":527.56,"end":529.56,"text":"請我們做了相關的研議"},{"start":529.56,"end":531.56,"text":"那確實也認為說有關"},{"start":531.56,"end":533.56,"text":"軍事院下的副校長"},{"start":533.56,"end":535.56,"text":"就做了兩個人"},{"start":535.56,"end":537.56,"text":"那一個部分是有關軍事院校的副校長"},{"start":537.56,"end":539.56,"text":"專責他軍事教育"},{"start":539.56,"end":541.56,"text":"對我知道"},{"start":541.56,"end":543.56,"text":"那另外一個是學術的文職的副校長"},{"start":544.1199999999999,"end":546.1199999999999,"text":"那有關相關的進度"},{"start":546.1199999999999,"end":548.1199999999999,"text":"對沒關係"},{"start":548.1199999999999,"end":550.1199999999999,"text":"那個參謀可以上來幫忙"},{"start":550.1199999999999,"end":552.1199999999999,"text":"我現在是問進度啦"},{"start":552.1199999999999,"end":554.1199999999999,"text":"因為本來我們7月份教"},{"start":554.1199999999999,"end":556.1199999999999,"text":"因為這個沒有人反對"},{"start":556.1199999999999,"end":558.1199999999999,"text":"我看起來各黨派都沒有人反對"},{"start":558.1199999999999,"end":560.1199999999999,"text":"應該修法通過"},{"start":560.1199999999999,"end":562.1199999999999,"text":"我們增設一個文職副校長"},{"start":562.1199999999999,"end":564.1199999999999,"text":"對國防大學是個好事情嘛"},{"start":564.1199999999999,"end":566.1199999999999,"text":"那後來說要等你們不版的"},{"start":566.1199999999999,"end":568.1199999999999,"text":"那等到現在8月中了耶"},{"start":568.1199999999999,"end":570.1199999999999,"text":"你們現在到底進度怎麼樣"},{"start":570.1199999999999,"end":572.1199999999999,"text":"是包委員那個有關相關的進度"},{"start":572.68,"end":574.68,"text":"那根據這些規則的審議跟承報"},{"start":574.68,"end":576.68,"text":"我們會"},{"start":576.68,"end":578.68,"text":"我們已經報到行政院的法規會"},{"start":578.68,"end":580.68,"text":"我們來做一個"},{"start":580.68,"end":582.68,"text":"這個程序上的實質審查"},{"start":582.68,"end":584.68,"text":"你們的版本跟我的版本"},{"start":584.68,"end":586.68,"text":"大概差異就是"},{"start":586.68,"end":588.68,"text":"我是在國防大學嘛"},{"start":588.68,"end":590.68,"text":"你們是涵蓋到三軍院校嘛"},{"start":590.68,"end":592.68,"text":"差異在這裡而已"},{"start":592.68,"end":594.68,"text":"那你們現在報到院裡面"},{"start":594.68,"end":596.6800000000001,"text":"還在停在那邊停很久了耶"},{"start":596.6800000000001,"end":598.6800000000001,"text":"是我們一直在持續的"},{"start":598.6800000000001,"end":600.6800000000001,"text":"跟院方來做溝通"},{"start":601.2399999999999,"end":603.2399999999999,"text":"能夠盡快的講這個法規"},{"start":603.2399999999999,"end":605.2399999999999,"text":"因為"},{"start":605.2399999999999,"end":607.2399999999999,"text":"這個案子其實是有共識的"},{"start":607.2399999999999,"end":609.2399999999999,"text":"你們的"},{"start":609.2399999999999,"end":611.2399999999999,"text":"正確來講你們的版本有涵蓋我的版本"},{"start":611.2399999999999,"end":613.2399999999999,"text":"所以我的版本通過並不會跟你有所和格嘛"},{"start":613.2399999999999,"end":615.2399999999999,"text":"幾乎是一樣嘛"},{"start":615.2399999999999,"end":617.2399999999999,"text":"那與其在那邊等"},{"start":617.2399999999999,"end":619.2399999999999,"text":"能不能就我們提案的版本"},{"start":619.2399999999999,"end":621.2399999999999,"text":"進行修正"},{"start":621.2399999999999,"end":623.2399999999999,"text":"符合部裡面的要求讓它通過"},{"start":623.2399999999999,"end":625.24,"text":"還是你們現在一定要等到院裡面送出來"},{"start":625.24,"end":627.24,"text":"那都不送"},{"start":627.24,"end":629.24,"text":"這個案子就一直沒辦法處理啦"},{"start":629.8,"end":631.8,"text":"因為過去這幾年"},{"start":631.8,"end":633.8,"text":"我們國防大學軍事院校"},{"start":633.8,"end":635.8,"text":"確實有發生過一些"},{"start":635.8,"end":637.8,"text":"這個文職人員"},{"start":637.8,"end":639.8,"text":"就是文職的老師"},{"start":639.8,"end":641.8,"text":"跟軍事管理之間一些大大小小的摩擦"},{"start":641.8,"end":643.8,"text":"我相信那個中副部長你也知道"},{"start":643.8,"end":645.8,"text":"那那個摩擦是沒必要的"},{"start":645.8,"end":647.8,"text":"那我們到底適用大學法"},{"start":647.8,"end":649.8,"text":"我們也適用軍事院校"},{"start":649.8,"end":651.8,"text":"其他是我們"},{"start":651.8,"end":653.8,"text":"軍事院校有它的特殊性"},{"start":653.8,"end":655.8,"text":"所以現在你們如果不能吹"},{"start":655.8,"end":657.8,"text":"院版快一點"},{"start":658.3599999999999,"end":660.3599999999999,"text":"這個版本一直等"},{"start":660.3599999999999,"end":662.3599999999999,"text":"這樣遙遙無期"},{"start":662.3599999999999,"end":664.3599999999999,"text":"不好啦"},{"start":664.3599999999999,"end":666.3599999999999,"text":"是那個會後我們在將最新狀況"},{"start":666.3599999999999,"end":668.3599999999999,"text":"完整的了解之後再跟委員做報告"},{"start":668.3599999999999,"end":670.3599999999999,"text":"所以你們現在沒有完整了解"},{"start":670.3599999999999,"end":672.3599999999999,"text":"不是,就是我剛才目前掌握的進度"},{"start":672.3599999999999,"end":674.3599999999999,"text":"已經多等快兩個月了"},{"start":674.3599999999999,"end":676.3599999999999,"text":"617到現在"},{"start":676.3599999999999,"end":678.3599999999999,"text":"進度不要這樣一拖再拖啦"},{"start":678.3599999999999,"end":680.3599999999999,"text":"這樣不好"},{"start":680.3599999999999,"end":682.3599999999999,"text":"主席站起來了"},{"start":682.3599999999999,"end":684.3599999999999,"text":"我最後一點點時間"},{"start":684.3599999999999,"end":686.3599999999999,"text":"又看到一個小艇跑進來"},{"start":686.92,"end":688.92,"text":"我先請教中副部長,你以前在陸軍司令嘛"},{"start":688.92,"end":690.92,"text":"那現在就是說"},{"start":690.92,"end":692.92,"text":"我們看到這一次"},{"start":692.92,"end":694.92,"text":"這一個動力橡皮艇"},{"start":694.92,"end":696.92,"text":"上面有三件救生衣"},{"start":696.92,"end":698.92,"text":"可是我們隔了幾天"},{"start":698.92,"end":700.92,"text":"逮捕只抓到兩個人"},{"start":700.92,"end":702.92,"text":"那這兩個人登岸之後很有意思"},{"start":702.92,"end":704.92,"text":"徒步走了幾十公里"},{"start":704.92,"end":706.92,"text":"往桃園去"},{"start":706.92,"end":708.92,"text":"那在漢光演習前夕"},{"start":708.92,"end":710.9200000000001,"text":"發生這個事情"},{"start":710.9200000000001,"end":712.9200000000001,"text":"就軍事上的意義來看"},{"start":712.9200000000001,"end":714.9200000000001,"text":"這些突擊艇或者小艇快艇"},{"start":715.4799999999999,"end":717.4799999999999,"text":"在我們套上我們"},{"start":717.4799999999999,"end":719.4799999999999,"text":"可登陸的海灘水域"},{"start":719.4799999999999,"end":721.4799999999999,"text":"從2024年到現在"},{"start":721.4799999999999,"end":723.4799999999999,"text":"如果再加上金門馬祖其實會更多"},{"start":723.4799999999999,"end":725.4799999999999,"text":"發生了10次左右"},{"start":725.4799999999999,"end":727.4799999999999,"text":"這種單人或雙人的小艇"},{"start":727.4799999999999,"end":729.4799999999999,"text":"來到我們的水域"},{"start":729.4799999999999,"end":731.4799999999999,"text":"我不認為這單純只有海巡署的事情"},{"start":731.4799999999999,"end":733.4799999999999,"text":"我們淡水河口淡水大營"},{"start":733.4799999999999,"end":735.4799999999999,"text":"那個負責我們衛須首都啊"},{"start":735.4799999999999,"end":737.4799999999999,"text":"台中港那個其實影響到行政卸載"},{"start":737.4799999999999,"end":739.48,"text":"也是反侵略很重要的部分"},{"start":739.48,"end":741.48,"text":"那現在我們看到"},{"start":741.48,"end":743.48,"text":"我們看到這個"},{"start":744.04,"end":746.04,"text":"反侵略很重要的部分"},{"start":746.04,"end":748.04,"text":"你們的判斷"},{"start":748.04,"end":750.04,"text":"這些小艇"},{"start":750.04,"end":752.04,"text":"這些登陸在軍事上"},{"start":752.04,"end":754.04,"text":"他們有什麼意圖"},{"start":754.04,"end":756.04,"text":"然後你們有什麼樣的精進的做法"},{"start":756.04,"end":758.04,"text":"第一個部分跟委員回答是"},{"start":758.04,"end":760.04,"text":"有關這一個淡水河確實是"},{"start":760.04,"end":762.04,"text":"敵人滲透透光突襲非常重要的一個"},{"start":762.04,"end":764.04,"text":"一個途徑"},{"start":764.04,"end":766.04,"text":"那有這樣的一個中國小艇入侵"},{"start":766.04,"end":768.04,"text":"就軍事上的"},{"start":768.04,"end":770.04,"text":"這個研判來說我們必須要"},{"start":770.04,"end":772.04,"text":"非常謹慎的去檢討"},{"start":772.5999999999999,"end":774.5999999999999,"text":"利用小艇來滲透透光突襲"},{"start":774.5999999999999,"end":776.5999999999999,"text":"他的太陽以及"},{"start":776.5999999999999,"end":778.5999999999999,"text":"他可能也在試探我們的一個"},{"start":778.5999999999999,"end":780.5999999999999,"text":"反應的一個能力"},{"start":780.5999999999999,"end":782.5999999999999,"text":"以及我們有關情緘真的這個作為"},{"start":782.5999999999999,"end":784.5999999999999,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":784.5999999999999,"end":786.5999999999999,"text":"我們會跟海巡署在密切做一個協調聯絡"},{"start":786.5999999999999,"end":788.5999999999999,"text":"那第二個部分就是說"},{"start":788.5999999999999,"end":790.5999999999999,"text":"他從登陸之後再到紅色海灘"},{"start":790.5999999999999,"end":792.5999999999999,"text":"去做一個踏勘所以我們從這邊"},{"start":792.5999999999999,"end":794.5999999999999,"text":"去檢討他也實際在"},{"start":794.5999999999999,"end":796.5999999999999,"text":"你們認為他們有在踏勘紅色海灘"},{"start":796.5999999999999,"end":798.5999999999999,"text":"對因為這個部分可能就是說"},{"start":798.5999999999999,"end":800.5999999999999,"text":"因為"},{"start":801.16,"end":803.16,"text":"必須要經過正式的一個法律的詢問了解"},{"start":803.16,"end":805.16,"text":"這兩位據說有"},{"start":805.16,"end":807.16,"text":"對中國的海警或者武警的背景"},{"start":807.16,"end":809.16,"text":"確實海警跟武警在戰時"},{"start":809.16,"end":811.16,"text":"他是他的一個武裝"},{"start":811.16,"end":813.16,"text":"所以他們有這個背景"},{"start":813.16,"end":815.16,"text":"那時候我們也不排除他到紅色海灘的時候"},{"start":815.16,"end":817.16,"text":"是實際踏勘他們如果後續"},{"start":817.16,"end":819.16,"text":"真正做大規模的正規"},{"start":819.16,"end":821.16,"text":"飛針跟登陸的時候"},{"start":821.16,"end":823.16,"text":"他一路往桃園會經過很多要地"},{"start":823.16,"end":825.1600000000001,"text":"林口台地啊一直往下走"},{"start":825.1600000000001,"end":827.1600000000001,"text":"到觀音這個其實都是重要的"},{"start":827.1600000000001,"end":829.1600000000001,"text":"登陸點啊"},{"start":829.7199999999999,"end":831.7199999999999,"text":"桃園的這個保守座跟海國海灘確實是敵人"},{"start":831.7199999999999,"end":833.7199999999999,"text":"正規登陸最主要的一個"},{"start":833.7199999999999,"end":835.7199999999999,"text":"這兩位有海警武警背景"},{"start":835.7199999999999,"end":837.7199999999999,"text":"他們進行紅色海灘的踏勘"},{"start":837.7199999999999,"end":839.7199999999999,"text":"那他們是三個還兩個"},{"start":839.7199999999999,"end":841.7199999999999,"text":"現在只抓到兩個"},{"start":841.7199999999999,"end":843.7199999999999,"text":"後續我們要掌握看看後續"},{"start":843.7199999999999,"end":844.7199999999999,"text":"有關"},{"start":844.7199999999999,"end":846.7199999999999,"text":"就不要認為這只是海巡"},{"start":846.7199999999999,"end":848.7199999999999,"text":"因為海巡坦白講預算過得太慢"},{"start":848.7199999999999,"end":850.7199999999999,"text":"他們的勤政系統確實有漏洞"},{"start":850.7199999999999,"end":852.7199999999999,"text":"空中的巡視的力量不足"},{"start":852.7199999999999,"end":854.72,"text":"我認為這是要把它視為"},{"start":854.72,"end":856.72,"text":"我們國防整體體系的一環"},{"start":856.72,"end":858.72,"text":"該補上漏洞要補上漏洞"},{"start":858.72,"end":860.72,"text":"小部隊突襲"},{"start":860.72,"end":862.72,"text":"在面對第一級的時候"},{"start":862.72,"end":864.72,"text":"那個可能是配合在台灣的第五重隊"},{"start":864.72,"end":866.72,"text":"是我們國軍遇到最困難的"},{"start":866.72,"end":868.72,"text":"最前面的狀況"},{"start":868.72,"end":870.72,"text":"所以有關這個突擊的部分"},{"start":870.72,"end":872.72,"text":"我們未來會繼續追蹤"},{"start":872.72,"end":874.72,"text":"好謝謝副部長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:35:58.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:35:59.105000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:35:59.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:36:02.990000+08:00","text":"麻煩副部長以及情次室助理次長。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T10:36:03.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:36:05.796000+08:00","text":"請副部長、助理次長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:36:07.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:36:07.960000+08:00","text":"王委員好。早！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:36:10.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:36:47.726154+08:00","text":"我先講一個題外話，關於第二十四條拍攝影片向中共以及中共解放軍效忠的修法案，其實本席在1月份已經來這邊做過提案說明，從1月份到現在一直無法處理，放到現在，剛才在討論有關足生或者是造成軍事上的損害，坦白講，包含陳永康委員，包含在場所有的國軍將領，誰不知道自己向著五星旗、向解放軍表達效忠，然後做不抵抗，這是違法的、這是對不起國家的？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:36:48.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:37:06.898667+08:00","text":"所以我贊成剛才沈伯洋委員所說的，把那個定義弄清楚，否則現在中共對我們國軍的滲透，像用小型借貸、買你蝦皮帳號，他其實目的不在錢，也不在帳號，他透過掌握你，因為你怕被長官知道，他就可以恐嚇你，叫你把文件拿出來。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:37:07.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:37:10.140000+08:00","text":"很多人很難理解怎麼會為了三萬塊出賣國家？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:37:10.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:37:12.392727+08:00","text":"怎麼會為了五千塊錢成為共諜？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:37:12.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:37:25.536000+08:00","text":"其實就是在這裡，他知道自己做錯事情，怕被長官知道，就一步一步進到那個陷阱裡面而不自拔，馬祖東引有一百多個人耶！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:37:27.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:37:50.565714+08:00","text":"如果我們國軍的軍官、士官、士兵拍了向中共效忠的影帶，這個人被中共掌握住了，我們不知道，當發生戰事的時候，他負責控制武器、他負責C2戰管指揮，付出代價的是其他奉公守法、盡忠職守的國軍。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:37:50.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:38:03.406154+08:00","text":"所以我相信副部長應該是支持院版，那個是院跟我們一起提出來的，就是我們把它的定義弄清楚，但如果你要用足生損害才來罰的話，有時候損害完成，國家已經沒了！","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:38:04.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:38:10.577778+08:00","text":"應該要嚇阻他，而且透過這樣的嚇阻，可以阻卻他更進一步往犯罪的更深層去走。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:38:12.535385+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:38:20.049231+08:00","text":"我剛才聽到國民黨委員一直認為說定義不清楚，國軍弟兄會不知道怎麼樣會被罰？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:38:22.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:38:28.030000+08:00","text":"你當國軍、現役軍人，向五星旗效忠、向解放軍效忠，會不知道這是錯的？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:38:28.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:38:29.946667+08:00","text":"開什麼玩笑嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:38:30.565714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:39:22.150000+08:00","text":"我回來先請教，我請情次室上來原因就是，昨天中國發布他要跟印尼海軍在臺灣東部外海舉行演練，其實臺灣東部外海或者叫西太平洋，加上菲律賓海的北側，其實那範圍很大，大概就是北馬里亞納島、關島跟我們臺灣之間夾雜著與那國、夾雜了很多戰略要地，美國的分散部署也在這個位置，他說他要在臺灣的東部海域進行演習，而且是跟印尼，中國在那個水域進行演習，我們不意外，我們這次漢光42號的反封鎖、載運補、跨境運補，玉山艦的模擬大概都針對這個科目，可是因為他拉了印尼，就值得我們關注了。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:39:22.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:39:26.066667+08:00","text":"我請教國防部，這是什麼狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:39:26.066667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:39:27.066667+08:00","text":"感謝委員關心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:39:26.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:39:32.150000+08:00","text":"這件事情就情次室的掌握，這艘船是一艘兩千多噸的巡防艦，他從北……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:39:32.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:39:34.177778+08:00","text":"你講的這艘船是印尼的？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:39:34.177778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:39:35.177778+08:00","text":"印尼的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:39:34.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:39:56.560000+08:00","text":"它下來，可能中共選擇他要操作的部分來公布，事實上我們掌握到可以公布的訊息是，它從日本那邊下來之後，不光是跟中共預劃要做一個對遇的操演，事實上它跟日本、後續跟美國一路上都有做這樣的操演。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:39:56.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:09.320000+08:00","text":"OK，這一艘船叫萊，是護衛艦，兩千多噸級，所以依你的講法，它從日本往下走，沿線碰到哪一國就跟各國engagement、互動一下，你們掌握的狀況是這樣子？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:09.320000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:10.320000+08:00","text":"我們掌握的是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:09.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:11.270000+08:00","text":"那它的位置在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:11.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:14.986667+08:00","text":"它的位置在臺灣東面，事實上離我們的領海、鄰接區……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:14.986667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:15.986667+08:00","text":"最遠到多遠？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:15.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:19.186667+08:00","text":"大概離我們的領海有7、80浬以上。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:20.853333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:25.408889+08:00","text":"7、80浬以上，有相當的距離，所以它正確位置應該是在西太平洋的位置。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:25.408889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:26.408889+08:00","text":"西太平洋的位置。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:26.377143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:31.408889+08:00","text":"中國喜歡形成心理恫嚇，就說是在我們東部外海，其實是在西太平洋的位置。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:31.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:41.413333+08:00","text":"因為如果印尼專程去跟中國的……那一艘中國派出來的紅河艦應該是2022年下水的054D嘛？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:42.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:43.746667+08:00","text":"054大概四千噸級。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:46.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:40:53.913333+08:00","text":"所以在那個位置，它是經過，如果是專程去，我們就要注意了，因為印尼將來的角色到底是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:40:54.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:10.354286+08:00","text":"因為美軍或者我們的友盟在這個位置跟我們進行反封鎖，印尼理論上不會跟第七艦隊作對，但他如果專程跟中國的054D軍演的話，就值得我們注意了。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:10.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:18.417778+08:00","text":"所以你掌握到的狀況是，印尼這艘艦是從日本往下走，沿線有跟哪些國家進行接觸性的互動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:18.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:20.240000+08:00","text":"你說美國有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:20.240000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:21.240000+08:00","text":"我們知道的有美國、日本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:20.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:24.515000+08:00","text":"美國、日本，然後中國，接下來它就返航回到印尼去了？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:24.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:26.440000+08:00","text":"一路上它還有它的規劃。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:26.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:28.354286+08:00","text":"還會到其他地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:29.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:38.950000+08:00","text":"這一艘護衛艦在每個地方跟各國軍艦的接觸，他們印尼的軍方或者國防部有沒有公布？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:39.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:40.950000+08:00","text":"印尼沒有正式公布。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:41.533333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:42.866667+08:00","text":"他都沒有公布？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:43.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:41:52.977778+08:00","text":"所以目前為止跟紅河艦的接觸是中國片面宣布出來的，而且講得好像他們兩個專程在那邊軍演一樣。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:41:53.381818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:00.950000+08:00","text":"我請教國防部跟情次室，你們認為他們這個動作，在軍事上對我們有沒有影響？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:01.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:13.510000+08:00","text":"這應該從兩個層面來說，直接回答委員您的問題，在軍事上對臺灣沒有直接影響，但他的敘事衍生的效應，可能會有人有一些其他的企圖。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:13.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:15.537778+08:00","text":"有地緣政治上的影響。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:15.537778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:16.537778+08:00","text":"對，有地緣政治上的意義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:15.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:17.578182+08:00","text":"但是軍事的影響並不直接？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:17.578182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:18.578182+08:00","text":"軍事上並沒有直接影響。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:17.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:35.920000+08:00","text":"那這敘事上的影響，就情次室或國防部目前我們要做……其實揭露是一個方式，像你剛才揭露就很好，透明，它就一路下來，經過遇到誰就跟誰互動一下，並不是專程跟共軍，還有跟日本海自、跟美國也有。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:36.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:38.177143+08:00","text":"是跟美國什麼樣的船艦進行互動？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:38.891429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:41.520000+08:00","text":"相關的細節我們可以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:41.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:42.653333+08:00","text":"所以都有掌握？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:42.653333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:46.153333+08:00","text":"就這件事情，我們跟印尼方面有沒有互動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:46.153333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:49.120000+08:00","text":"不方便講，我尊重。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:49.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:49.920000+08:00","text":"我們有來源。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:50.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:55.920000+08:00","text":"OK，美方有沒有跟我們進行相關情資的互動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳助理次長天任","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:56.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:42:58.070000+08:00","text":"這都有相關來源，我們可以……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:42:58.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:43:00.737143+08:00","text":"OK，跟美方、跟印尼都有相關的消息來源。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:43:03.451429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:43:04.594286+08:00","text":"情次室先請回。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:43:04.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:44:01.818182+08:00","text":"我現在請教國防部，其實我原來推動的並不是全面的軍事院校，因為陸海空軍大學有它軍事學校的規格，我本來推動的是國防大學，在不影響現任的將領職缺以外增設一個文職的副校長，這個文職副校長負責學術以及校內文職人員、教師相關的協調、管理，這個在西點、Virginia各校都有，當時國軍也樂見，因為第一個，我們不要影響現有國軍的編制，在國防大學裡面有國管院，有相關的不管是政院或者法律相關的，如果我們有一個文職副校長，對於國防大學整個質的提升、學術部分的強化都有幫助，我們希望每一個國軍軍官訓練出來都是文武雙全，當時我得到的消息是你們樂見。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:44:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:44:28.274286+08:00","text":"後來在立法院這種無限延會的長度下，我們7月份本來要審查，我看媒體報導的消息是，國防部在6月17日行政公告，你們要把軍事教育條例第八條修正，所以叫我們等你們一下，說7月份會來進行相關的修法，我說好，我提案，我可以等你們部版的方案出來。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:44:28.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:44:32.337778+08:00","text":"但現在已經到8月份了，目前進度到底到哪裡了？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:44:32.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:44:48.274286+08:00","text":"因為上次委員交代完之後，其實部長回去就請我們做了相關的研議，確實也認為有關軍事院校副校長修正為兩個人，一個部分是有關軍事院校的副校長專責他軍事教育……","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:44:48.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:44:52.426667+08:00","text":"對，我知道，另外一個是學術的、文職的副校長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:44:52.426667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:44:55.620000+08:00","text":"完全就是以大學教育能夠提升軍校學生的素質為主，有關相關的進度，我請……","quality":0.226},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:44:55.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:45:00.870000+08:00","text":"沒關係，參謀可以上來幫忙，我現在是問進度啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:45:01.564444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:45:18.938182+08:00","text":"本來我們7月份就要……看起來各黨派都沒有人反對，應該會修法通過，增設一個文職副校長，這對國防大學是件好事情，但後來是說要等你們提出部版，等到現在已經8月中了，你們現在的進度到底是怎麼樣？","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"薛助理次長柏洋","start":"2026-08-12T10:45:19.427692+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:45:31.480000+08:00","text":"報告委員，相關的進度，我們是依照相關的規則來審議跟呈報，現在是已經報到行政院法規會來做程序上的實質審查。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:45:31.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:45:41.394286+08:00","text":"你們的版本跟我的版本大概的差異就是我的版本就只有國防大學，你們是涵蓋到三軍院校，差異在這裡而已。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"薛助理次長柏洋","start":"2026-08-12T10:45:41.394286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:45:42.394286+08:00","text":"是、是、是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:45:41.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:45:45.498182+08:00","text":"你們現在報到院裡面了，但停在那邊停很久了耶！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"薛助理次長柏洋","start":"2026-08-12T10:45:45.902222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:45:52.040000+08:00","text":"我們一直持續跟院方來做溝通，希望這個法規能夠儘快進行審查。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:45:54.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:46:03.906667+08:00","text":"其實這一個案子是有共識的，正確來講，你們的版本有涵蓋到我的版本，所以我的版本通過並不會跟你們的版本有所扞格，畢竟幾乎是一樣的嘛！","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:46:04.525714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:46:12.073333+08:00","text":"與其在那邊等，能不能就我們提案的版本進行修正，以符合部裡面的要求並讓其通過？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:46:12.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:46:14.122353+08:00","text":"還是你們一定要等到院裡面送出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:46:14.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:46:17.932308+08:00","text":"若都不送，這個案子就一直沒辦法處理了。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"薛助理次長柏洋","start":"2026-08-12T10:46:17.932308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:46:18.932308+08:00","text":"我們還是希望能夠依照……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:46:18.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:46:52.693333+08:00","text":"因為過去這幾年國防大學、軍事院校確實有發生過一些文職人員的事件，就是文職的老師跟軍事管理之間有一些大大小小的摩擦，我相信鍾副部長也知道，那個摩擦是沒必要的，基本上，這適用大學法，也適用軍事院校，且軍事院校有其特殊性，所以如果你們不能催院版快一點，讓我們這個版本在那邊一直等，這樣遙遙無期不好啦！","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"薛助理次長柏洋","start":"2026-08-12T10:46:53.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:46:57.217143+08:00","text":"是，會後我們將最新狀況完整了解之後，會再跟委員做報告。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:46:57.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:46:59.193333+08:00","text":"所以你們現在沒有完整了解？","quality":1},{"speaker":"薛助理次長柏洋","start":"2026-08-12T10:46:59.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:47:01.217143+08:00","text":"不是，而是我目前掌握的進度是這樣。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:47:01.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:47:03.137778+08:00","text":"我已經多等快兩個月了耶！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:47:03.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:47:08.860000+08:00","text":"從617到現在，進度不要這樣一拖再拖，這樣不好！是。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:47:09.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:48:08.298182+08:00","text":"主席站起來了，最後一點點時間，就是最近又看到一個小艇跑進來，我先請教鍾副部長，你以前當過陸軍司令，我們看到這個動力橡皮艇上面有三件救生衣，隔了幾天後卻只逮捕到兩個人，且這兩個人登岸之後，有趣的是，他們徒步走了幾十公里往桃園去，在漢光演習前夕發生這個事情，就軍事上的意義來看，這些突擊艇、小艇或是快艇，套上我們可登陸的海灘水域，從2024年到現在，如果再加上金門、馬祖發生的，其實數目會更多，即發生了10次左右，就是用這種單人或雙人的小艇來到我們的水域，我不認為這單純只是海巡署的事情，像淡水河口的淡水大營，他們負責衛戍首都；臺中港的那個，其實會影響到行政卸載，也是反侵略中很重要的部分。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:48:15.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:48:22.754286+08:00","text":"據你們的判斷，這些小艇的登陸在軍事上他們有什麼意圖？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:48:23.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:48:24.897143+08:00","text":"然後你們有什麼樣的精進做法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:48:25.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:48:55.482353+08:00","text":"第一個部分跟委員回答的是，有關淡水河的部分，確實是敵人滲透、特攻、突襲一個非常重要的途徑，有這樣一個中國小艇入侵，就軍事上的研判來說，我們必須要非常謹慎而且檢討，也就是說，利用小艇來滲透、特攻、突襲，這樣的態樣以及他可能也是在試探我們反應的能力，以及我們有關的情監偵作為，這個部分我們會跟海巡署密切做個協調、聯絡。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:48:55.822222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:03.100000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，他從登陸之後，再到紅色海灘去做一個踏勘，所以我們從這邊去檢討，他也實際……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:03.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:05.457143+08:00","text":"你們認為他們有在踏勘紅色海灘？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:05.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:12.042353+08:00","text":"對，因為這個部分也必須經過一個正式的法律訊問、了解……","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:12.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:16.006154+08:00","text":"這兩位據說有中國海警或者武警的背景，是嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:16.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:19.910000+08:00","text":"確實海警跟武警在戰時是他的武裝力量……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:20.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:21.937778+08:00","text":"所以他們有這個背景？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:22.493333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:29.910000+08:00","text":"所以我們也不排除他到紅色海灘是做實際踏勘，即後續如果他們真正要做大規模的正規、非正規登陸的時候……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:30.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:37.160000+08:00","text":"他一路往桃園去，中間會經過我們很多要地，像林口臺地一直往下走到觀音，這個其實都是重要的登陸點。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:38.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:42.520000+08:00","text":"對，桃園的寶斗厝海灘跟海湖海灘確實是敵人正規登陸中最主要的一個海灘。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:42.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:48.497778+08:00","text":"所以這兩位有海警、武警背景，他們來進行紅色海灘的踏勘，請問他們是三個人還是兩個人？","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:48.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:50.434286+08:00","text":"現在只抓到兩個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:50.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:49:53.220000+08:00","text":"基本上不排除，後續我們要掌握，看看後續有關……","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-08-12T10:49:53.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T10:50:23.386667+08:00","text":"不要認為這只是與海巡有關，因為坦白講，他們的預算過得太慢，他們的情偵監系統確實有漏洞，空中巡視的力量也不足，我認為應該要把它視為我們整體國防體系的一環，該補上漏洞的要補上漏洞，否則小部隊突襲，在面對第一擊的時候，那個可能是配合在臺灣的第五縱隊，是我們國軍遇到最困難的、最前面的狀況，所以有關突襲的部分，我們未來會繼續追蹤，謝謝副部長。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T10:50:23.886667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:50:25.029524+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T10:50:25.329524+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:50:27.329524+08:00","text":"謝謝王定宇委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T10:50:27.629524+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:50:35.058095+08:00","text":"接下來請許宇甄委員，許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員，許宇甄委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T10:50:35.358095+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T10:50:38.215238+08:00","text":"請張雅琳委員來做詢答。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}