{"error":false,"id":["170944"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170944,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170944","日期":"2026-08-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-5-36,35-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,35],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-08-12T11:03:45+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-12T11:11:40+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/628bd009efdbf44b9f34cd0742b1fb442ae46e7b2979c5a448cc33a1c1d0158e69b51f63c6f260655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"11:03:45 - 11:11:40","會議時間":"2026-08-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續併案審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」等10案。\n二、併案審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第五十四條條文修正草案」等25案。\n【詳見議事日程】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.5372187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":4.2497187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.207218750000001,"end":7.709093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.78909375,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.19284375,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.35721875,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.04846875,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.83346875,"end":61.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.24909375,"end":64.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.11784375,"end":69.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.58971875,"end":72.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.86346875000001,"end":80.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.04346875,"end":86.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.51534375,"end":91.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.40909375000001,"end":95.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.96534375,"end":97.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.73721875000001,"end":101.29784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.38221875,"end":107.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.26721875000001,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.69284375000001,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.07596875,"end":128.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.51284375,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.73596875,"end":133.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.95096875000002,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.09846875,"end":136.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.70159375,"end":142.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.42221875,"end":153.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.45846875,"end":161.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.92971875,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.43534375000002,"end":175.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.98659375,"end":196.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.75971875000002,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.00346875000002,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.77909375000002,"end":208.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.43721875,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.37346875,"end":213.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.71471875,"end":217.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.00534375,"end":219.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.82784375000003,"end":223.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.41784375,"end":227.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.06284375,"end":237.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.95159375000003,"end":238.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.57159375,"end":260.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.32346875,"end":264.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.13721875000005,"end":275.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.86534375,"end":280.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.61159375,"end":283.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.30721875,"end":290.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.29784375,"end":300.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.06409375000004,"end":308.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.87721875,"end":323.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.08159375,"end":330.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.40534375000004,"end":332.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.38409375000003,"end":338.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.96534375000005,"end":342.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.38659375000003,"end":354.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.23284375000003,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.79721875,"end":364.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.64909375,"end":370.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.99409375000005,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.86284375,"end":375.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.36034375,"end":378.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.52034375000005,"end":401.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.97659375,"end":402.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.07346875,"end":414.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.68346875000003,"end":441.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.97034375000004,"end":447.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.21409375,"end":453.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.08659375,"end":473.18909375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0,"end":4.34,"text":"來 將軍有請"},{"start":4.34,"end":7.68,"text":"你接下來就要去問五分鐘"},{"start":7.68,"end":12.8,"text":"主席有請國防部中副部長以及法律師司長"},{"start":12.8,"end":15.36,"text":"中副部長還有張司長"},{"start":15.36,"end":17.14,"text":"沒有沒有都是國防部是吧"},{"start":17.14,"end":18.18,"text":"市委員好"},{"start":18.18,"end":19.46,"text":"大家好"},{"start":19.46,"end":22.78,"text":"因為剛才已經經歷了很多的委員的質詢"},{"start":22.78,"end":28.16,"text":"我在看他這個質詢內容有許多委員的專家"},{"start":28.16,"end":32.76,"text":"其實他的質詢的格式簡報都是用AI做的"},{"start":32.76,"end":35.08,"text":"而且我可以告訴你是哪一個AI公司"},{"start":35.08,"end":37.9,"text":"好 那今天談到的問題就是還是提到"},{"start":37.9,"end":40.120000000000005,"text":"政院版的第24條"},{"start":40.120000000000005,"end":42.5,"text":"那個24條的第五項"},{"start":42.5,"end":47.1,"text":"因為剛才吳宗憲委員已經提過了"},{"start":47.1,"end":50.94,"text":"我建議這個第五項後面我們保留再討論"},{"start":50.94,"end":53.16,"text":"概念上是支持"},{"start":53.16,"end":56.06,"text":"用字上面有些要定義照修正"},{"start":56.260000000000005,"end":59.14,"text":"我用一個今天大家常常講的話"},{"start":59.14,"end":62.2,"text":"這個客觀的事實加上主觀的翻譯"},{"start":62.2,"end":65.02000000000001,"text":"但是我把第二句話改成主觀的誤判"},{"start":65.02000000000001,"end":69.62,"text":"在客觀跟主觀之間有很多無關的錯誤訊息"},{"start":69.62,"end":72.7,"text":"那我們引述國外常常講的"},{"start":72.7,"end":76.02000000000001,"text":"他是無心的提供了一個錯誤訊息"},{"start":76.02000000000001,"end":78.84,"text":"你知道這個英文無心的訊息錯誤的"},{"start":78.84,"end":81.92,"text":"叫做misinformation"},{"start":81.92,"end":86.52,"text":"有意的誤導的訊息叫做disinformation"},{"start":86.52,"end":91.4,"text":"那無心加有意經過兩個三個輪迴的時候"},{"start":91.4,"end":94.72,"text":"對這個主觀的判斷他就產生誤判"},{"start":94.72,"end":97.78,"text":"而不是主觀的翻譯"},{"start":97.78,"end":101.38,"text":"那在這個裡面現在AI的進步"},{"start":101.38,"end":104.2,"text":"已經讓我們的法條修正跟不上了"},{"start":104.2,"end":106.76,"text":"我想法理師長您在這個第五條裡面"},{"start":106.76,"end":108.28,"text":"我舉例來講"},{"start":108.28,"end":111.62,"text":"裡面提到一個是以圖畫"},{"start":111.82000000000001,"end":112.9,"text":"圖畫的定義是什麼"},{"start":112.9,"end":117,"text":"今天如果用AI可以產生任何的圖畫"},{"start":117,"end":119.56,"text":"那剛才也有別的委員講說"},{"start":119.56,"end":124.16000000000001,"text":"一個圖像上表示對敵軍的部隊"},{"start":124.16000000000001,"end":126.98,"text":"要表示投降效忠或是如何"},{"start":126.98,"end":129.54000000000002,"text":"其實在圖畫上面"},{"start":129.54000000000002,"end":132.6,"text":"敵方的部隊我們這邊有兩個臉孔"},{"start":132.6,"end":135.16,"text":"一個是笑臉一個是哭臉"},{"start":135.16,"end":136.70000000000002,"text":"你如何定義"},{"start":136.70000000000002,"end":139.26,"text":"笑臉不是說我要去投降你"},{"start":139.29999999999998,"end":142.57999999999998,"text":"我是歡迎你向我來投誠"},{"start":142.57999999999998,"end":146.42,"text":"哭臉是說你來這麼多人我還養不起你"},{"start":146.42,"end":149.76,"text":"請問在圖畫的定義在這裡面"},{"start":149.76,"end":152.06,"text":"圖畫是沒有辦法做定義的這個吟詞"},{"start":152.06,"end":153.6,"text":"文字是可以定義的"},{"start":153.6,"end":157.18,"text":"圖畫尤其是利用AI產生的圖像"},{"start":157.18,"end":158.98,"text":"是沒有辦法做定義"},{"start":158.98,"end":162.79999999999998,"text":"另外一個就是我們現在年輕的部隊弟兄"},{"start":162.79999999999998,"end":166.64,"text":"很多人在服役之前兩三年"},{"start":166.83999999999997,"end":169.95999999999998,"text":"他已經在年輕人的世代都在花錢"},{"start":169.95999999999998,"end":171.5,"text":"在玩這個AI"},{"start":171.5,"end":175.85999999999999,"text":"所以他過去在AI裡面所有問的問題產生的圖像"},{"start":175.85999999999999,"end":179.17999999999998,"text":"在他的Facebook都會被別人截圖引述"},{"start":179.17999999999998,"end":182.51999999999998,"text":"所以光用一個圖像定義要來產生"},{"start":182.51999999999998,"end":184.82,"text":"說要表示向敵效忠"},{"start":184.82,"end":186.1,"text":"這個定義不輕了"},{"start":186.1,"end":189.42,"text":"這一條我們是建議保留後面還有討論空間"},{"start":189.42,"end":191.48,"text":"但理念上我們是支持的"},{"start":191.48,"end":194.27999999999997,"text":"現在我們面臨的最大的挑戰"},{"start":194.27999999999997,"end":196.6,"text":"就是AI對抗AI"},{"start":196.82,"end":200.9,"text":"每一個長官很多人都說我們現在是AI的專家"},{"start":202.9,"end":204.62,"text":"我們叫做人工智慧"},{"start":204.62,"end":206.66,"text":"或是對方叫人工智能"},{"start":207.82,"end":210.64,"text":"這個AI Artificial Intelligence"},{"start":211.4,"end":213.44,"text":"但是你如果付了錢"},{"start":214.72,"end":218.06,"text":"讓AI給你產生的答案一個是誤導"},{"start":218.06,"end":219.94,"text":"第二個是讓你誤判"},{"start":219.94,"end":221.82,"text":"做出了一個錯誤決定"},{"start":221.82,"end":224.45999999999998,"text":"這個時候的AI叫什麼"},{"start":224.45999999999998,"end":226.07999999999998,"text":"叫Artificial Idiot"},{"start":226.08,"end":227.36,"text":"叫人工智障"},{"start":228.12,"end":230.94000000000003,"text":"所以千萬不要以為AI就是人工智能"},{"start":230.94000000000003,"end":233.5,"text":"因為你不懂得AI的遊戲規則"},{"start":233.5,"end":237.34,"text":"另外就是在我們的現在對AI管制的法律條款裡面"},{"start":237.86,"end":238.88000000000002,"text":"更新不上"},{"start":239.64000000000001,"end":241.94000000000003,"text":"我曾經在過去在"},{"start":241.94000000000003,"end":245.02,"text":"也跟中央指揮部第五艦隊司令都曾經談過"},{"start":245.02,"end":247.84,"text":"我們現在談到無人機我們95%"},{"start":248.10000000000002,"end":250.14000000000001,"text":"叫做遠端遙控"},{"start":250.14000000000001,"end":251.42000000000002,"text":"你帶一個鏡子"},{"start":251.42000000000002,"end":253.98000000000002,"text":"讓你的畫面透過Tag可以傳回司令部"},{"start":253.98000000000002,"end":255.52,"text":"但是是本人在遙控"},{"start":255.98000000000002,"end":259.84000000000003,"text":"未來你在發展高端的無人機自主型的"},{"start":259.84000000000003,"end":260.86,"text":"Autonomous"},{"start":261.36,"end":262.38,"text":"這個時候"},{"start":262.38,"end":264.94,"text":"美方就講你的ROE是什麼"},{"start":264.94,"end":268.54,"text":"就不是我們講的一個紙牌"},{"start":268.54,"end":270.06,"text":"傳給基層部隊"},{"start":270.06,"end":271.86,"text":"這個時候是叫做戰務令"},{"start":271.86,"end":275.94,"text":"所以這種對中大型自主式致命性的無人機"},{"start":276.72,"end":278.74,"text":"他這個時候指揮乘擊"},{"start":278.74,"end":280.56,"text":"Man in the loop on the loop"},{"start":280.56,"end":283.62,"text":"在這個部分我們現在都沒有明確的定義"},{"start":284.28000000000003,"end":287.52,"text":"所以我們號稱這個希望國產"},{"start":287.52,"end":289.84000000000003,"text":"21萬架"},{"start":290.36,"end":291.12,"text":"其實啊"},{"start":291.12,"end":293.92,"text":"這個20多萬架都是遠端遙控"},{"start":293.92,"end":296.48,"text":"真正自主型的高端式的"},{"start":296.48,"end":300.6,"text":"這個裡面就有AI建入裡面的責任區分"},{"start":300.6,"end":302.4,"text":"這個責任很重要"},{"start":302.4,"end":305.6,"text":"剛才委員還在講這個紅色海灘"},{"start":305.6,"end":308.4,"text":"我想連長官也在這邊"},{"start":308.4,"end":311.92,"text":"紅色海灘的定義不是我們立法院講的定義"},{"start":312.14000000000004,"end":314.94,"text":"那是指正規兩棲登陸的海灘"},{"start":314.94,"end":317.02000000000004,"text":"是銀級海灘 鋁級海灘"},{"start":317.02000000000004,"end":320.06,"text":"不是做個橡皮筆上來就叫紅色海灘"},{"start":320.06,"end":321.86,"text":"那這個部分我們其實國防部"},{"start":321.86,"end":324.14000000000004,"text":"應該有很明確的定義說明"},{"start":324.14000000000004,"end":326.54,"text":"哪些漢高演習不要再演戲了"},{"start":326.54,"end":328.22,"text":"是演習不是演戲了"},{"start":328.22,"end":331.26,"text":"根本沒有辦法正規登陸"},{"start":331.26,"end":334.02000000000004,"text":"巴黎海灘早就已經被切斷了"},{"start":334.02000000000004,"end":335.14,"text":"淡江大橋出來"},{"start":335.14,"end":336.82,"text":"你要做核防是一回事"},{"start":336.82,"end":338.86,"text":"但對兩棲演習"},{"start":338.96000000000004,"end":343.36,"text":"我們中華民國陸戰隊不能演習的海灘"},{"start":343.36,"end":345.2,"text":"就不是正規能夠登陸的海灘"},{"start":345.2,"end":348.76,"text":"所以這個部分我希望能夠儘快把它釐清"},{"start":348.76,"end":352.68,"text":"那今天因為是本席有機會參與這個"},{"start":352.68,"end":355.2,"text":"我只是提供一個建言"},{"start":355.2,"end":357.28000000000003,"text":"第一個海灘的定義要明確"},{"start":357.28000000000003,"end":359.16,"text":"第二個AI導入以後"},{"start":359.16,"end":361.8,"text":"我們官員承擔的責任"},{"start":361.8,"end":365.48,"text":"法律責任 指揮官的責任要承擔"},{"start":365.48,"end":367.2,"text":"而不是下售"},{"start":367.21999999999997,"end":369.65999999999997,"text":"這個去中心化通通下售"},{"start":369.65999999999997,"end":371.09999999999997,"text":"這是不負責的"},{"start":371.09999999999997,"end":372.3,"text":"如果通通下售"},{"start":372.3,"end":373.97999999999996,"text":"那你就不要進橫直鎖"},{"start":373.97999999999996,"end":376.46,"text":"直接就到旅集去演戲"},{"start":376.46,"end":380.65999999999997,"text":"所以不是這個叫中心是可以調整的"},{"start":380.65999999999997,"end":383.14,"text":"center of gravity是可以調節的"},{"start":383.14,"end":384.65999999999997,"text":"而不是去中心"},{"start":384.65999999999997,"end":387.86,"text":"至於你作戰戰務令的授權下售"},{"start":387.86,"end":389.38,"text":"這不叫去中心化"},{"start":389.38,"end":391.58,"text":"我們這個定義到現在都講不清楚"},{"start":391.58,"end":393.46,"text":"那至於兩棲的紅色海灘"},{"start":393.46,"end":396.94,"text":"我希望我們內部做進一步的調整"},{"start":397.36,"end":398.6,"text":"我想剛才幾個建議"},{"start":398.6,"end":400.56,"text":"我還是請這個法律司司長"},{"start":400.56,"end":402.12,"text":"您做一個簡短的回應"},{"start":402.12,"end":403.04,"text":"是"},{"start":403.04,"end":404.32,"text":"各位委員報告"},{"start":404.32,"end":407.24,"text":"那我們調整陸海空軍刑法第24條"},{"start":407.24,"end":410.2,"text":"主要是言語舉動文字圖畫"},{"start":410.2,"end":414.64,"text":"或電磁紀錄科技方法或其他方式"},{"start":414.64,"end":416.64,"text":"剛才委員講到圖畫 對"},{"start":416.64,"end":418.32,"text":"但是他如果有畫一個圖畫"},{"start":418.32,"end":421.04,"text":"彰顯出來的畫意的表現"},{"start":421.04,"end":423.24,"text":"那我們還是要經過偵查的手段"},{"start":423.24,"end":424.88,"text":"來瞭解他主觀的翻譯"},{"start":424.88,"end":426.88,"text":"我們才能夠判定他是不是"},{"start":426.88,"end":429.88,"text":"有違反24條我要徵定的這一條的罪"},{"start":429.88,"end":431.58,"text":"當然是文字是比較明確"},{"start":431.58,"end":435.38,"text":"那圖畫本來就是要透過其他一個偵查的手段"},{"start":435.38,"end":436.74,"text":"然後可能就詢問"},{"start":436.74,"end":439.88,"text":"才會知道他真正想表達什麼意思"},{"start":439.88,"end":441.38,"text":"特別跟您講"},{"start":441.38,"end":442.96,"text":"我不知道您用AI用多久"},{"start":442.96,"end":445.04,"text":"你曉得現在產生的一個圖畫"},{"start":445.04,"end":448.21999999999997,"text":"隨著繞一圈就有20萬個人在看"},{"start":448.21999999999997,"end":449.34,"text":"每一個人都可以截圖"},{"start":449.34,"end":450.74,"text":"把你的圖案引畫上去"},{"start":450.74,"end":454.15999999999997,"text":"所以用圖畫來追蹤他的意圖"},{"start":454.16,"end":455.36,"text":"誠意甚高"},{"start":455.36,"end":458.66,"text":"實際上你自己本身也沒有用AI去過濾"},{"start":458.66,"end":460.16,"text":"你沒有辦法做判斷"},{"start":460.16,"end":462.36,"text":"所以AI產生的圖像"},{"start":462.36,"end":464.36,"text":"換人貼臉 假音"},{"start":464.36,"end":466.66,"text":"這種東西要更審慎"},{"start":466.66,"end":469.66,"text":"也就是說圖像是非常嚴謹的"},{"start":469.66,"end":471.16,"text":"這點提供參考"},{"start":471.16,"end":473.66,"text":"我的這個質詢到這邊 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}