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雖然有點中間有點吵架"},{"start":559,"end":560,"text":"住宅預算難道不重要嗎"},{"start":560,"end":562,"text":"我們現在面對少子女化危機"},{"start":562,"end":564,"text":"上次住宅法修法提高婚禦宅的比例"},{"start":564,"end":567,"text":"如果直接興辦社宅的進度是零"},{"start":567,"end":569,"text":"那你幾%幾%還不是零 對不對"},{"start":569,"end":571,"text":"所以我希望部長署長回去"},{"start":571,"end":573,"text":"好好再思考一下這件事情"},{"start":573,"end":575,"text":"不要讓這個錯誤的政策繼續延續下去"},{"start":575,"end":576,"text":"謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:23:14.777778+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，劉部長有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:23:15+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:15.636364+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:23:23.866667+08:00","text":"今天這個題目很大，新青安也可以講20分鐘，社宅講20分鐘，包租代管講20分鐘，對不對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:23:24.800000+08:00","text":"請委員指導。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:23:26.875000+08:00","text":"但是我只有5分鐘，我們就講重點好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:27.545455+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:23:39.647059+08:00","text":"大家都關心社宅直接興辦的狀況，但是顯然有很大的縮水，剛剛我聽了部長的回答，我們還是以13萬戶為目標，但第一階段是3萬戶，第一階段是幾年？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:23:47+08:00","text":"第一階段有寫在上面，我請署長跟您回答一下，好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長長展","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:24:07.733333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這3萬戶就是在117年，我們已經有確定的案件就是3萬戶，像今（115）年還會再繼續盤點，有可能116年會有再新增加，所以我們會在那個表格上面呈現新的量，這個部分每年都會檢討，但是報院計畫的部分還是要確定。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:24:08.230769+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:24:35.666667+08:00","text":"從114年開始，大家都在追蹤賴清德總統具體來講要怎麼樣執行他當初跟所有選民承諾的社會住宅計畫，大家得到的結論是這個計畫延宕了半天，一直遲遲沒有辦法得到共識，最後這個共識出來是縮水，縮水之後當然就被罵爆，被罵爆之後現在又以13萬戶為目標，我真的誠心建議劉部長，還有署長，大家都辛苦了，真的完全沒有必要搞這一齣啦！","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:24:36.181818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:24:59.285714+08:00","text":"我們看一下投影片，按照現在的規劃，當初民進黨政府執政之後的承諾，從蔡英文總統開始承諾直接興建20萬戶社會住宅，賴清德總統加碼宣布要增加13萬戶，17萬戶包租代管加上50萬戶租屋補貼，形成所謂的百萬政府支持的住宅政策這樣一個核心綱要。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:25:00.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:25:16.736842+08:00","text":"而最新的草案，按照最新的說法，官方的資料顯示，關於興建社宅，你可以看到蔡英文總統承諾興建20萬戶住宅，但實際上他8年任期結束之後，包含到現在計算進去，頂到天，加上還沒有蓋完的也就只有14.5萬戶。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:25:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:25:21.863636+08:00","text":"換言之，政府的承諾本來就要打個折扣，因為實際上執行起來會遇到各式各樣的問題跟阻礙。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:25:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:25:45.666667+08:00","text":"那你在打折扣的時候，按照現在最新的規劃，包含你現在縮水的3萬戶裡面，還有2.5萬戶等於是蔡英文總統當初的規劃，在任期尾端之內核定的一些計畫，實際上你剛剛講的117年這個時間點，真正從賴政府找到地、新增，然後核定這個計畫，以千的單位來算，只剩下1,000戶。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:25:46.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:26:12.818182+08:00","text":"我現在講的不只是這個事情，很多人都在講說我們就多元處理，包租代管有增加等等，但是包租代管是包租代管，直接興辦社宅是直接興辦社宅，不管在區位選擇、房型選擇、租期保障方面等等，社會住宅的穩定性都還是最高的，所以大家在居住正義的倡議跟居住政策的選擇裡面，直接興辦社宅本來就是大家最期待的、第一優先的方案，但這樣的方案持續的縮水。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:26:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:26:14.888889+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得這樣有辦法回應人民的期待嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:26:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:26:16.692308+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:26:16.923077+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:26:30.800000+08:00","text":"您所提出的意見我覺得是非常的務實，但是我們有另外一個新的倡議，就是我們建議在容獎上面，尤其從都更、危老裡面可以取得社會住宅，這個部分也必須大院跟地方政府一起合作。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:26:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:26:48.714286+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告一下，這個部分我們希望鼓勵更多民間的營造公司或者是建築公司願意投入社會住宅的興建，你願意投入社會住宅興建的鼓勵辦法，政府儘量少出我們自己的公務預算的話，就是鼓勵他用容獎的方式來取代。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:26:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:26:56.800000+08:00","text":"我現在就是擔心這件事，部長，社會住宅興辦壓力很大，這不外乎兩件事，一個要地，一個要錢，對不對？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:26:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:27:00.888889+08:00","text":"我有足夠的用地來好好的興建，其實社會住宅的量很快就可以拉起來，對不對？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:27:01.173913+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:27:12.750000+08:00","text":"當然第二個要件是政府要充分提供財務的資源，我們的政府在各項政務推動的時候，我都不是很理解，為什麼這個東西在錢的部分這麼錙銖必較、這麼注重財政紀律？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:27:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:27:27.823529+08:00","text":"社會住宅本來就是要提供給需求者，而且是真正社會上弱勢的人也好、青年也好，或者是大家納入婚育的部分也好，本來就有很強的政策綜效在這個地方，但是剛剛部長的回答也證明了，只要能夠省下錢，我們也很樂意多蓋一些。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:27:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:27:51.823529+08:00","text":"我關注到的事情是這樣，剛剛除了劉書彬委員有提到你的自行購地，我要買地，有很多的預算我自行刪除了之外，我們也注意到117年起工程決標的案件，也就是真正賴政府規劃的案件裡面，中央政府不再提供地方政府非自償性補助，你等於把這個政策的資源統統都截肢掉了，截肢掉之後，那還怎麼樣把量衝上來呢？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:27:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:08.823529+08:00","text":"部長，你剛剛有提到都更、危老等等，全臺灣有具備都更、危老的條件，講句實在話，也就是臺北市、新北市部分的區域，其他的地方都還是以新的捷運整開等等來作為都市發展最大的動力。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:19.700000+08:00","text":"換言之，你如果只把社會住宅期待建立在危老、都更，臺北市、新北市人口稠密區有都更需求的地方，能擠也擠不出多少戶啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:24.900000+08:00","text":"所以即便你有這樣做，你說你要滾動式檢討，這些東西也騙不了人民嘛，我們現在要求的是什麼？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:45.888889+08:00","text":"報告委員，在討論的過程當中我們絕對沒有用騙的，應該是說你的期望值跟我們的預估值可能有落差，我剛才所提到都更、危老條例，還有一個都市計畫法臺灣省施行細則，這個部分提供容獎的部分，大部分都會是集中在都會區，既然是都會區的話，倒不一定是北三都。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:48.700000+08:00","text":"部長，你剛剛講的期待對不對？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:49+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:03.666667+08:00","text":"而我講的期待，我們當然是從最高期待，我當然希望你可以蓋100萬戶、200萬戶，這是我個人的期待，因為我關注這個題目，但是我們期待的標準是賴清德總統曾經承諾直接興建13萬戶社會住宅，所以你沒有做到，那不是騙是什麼，對不對？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:06.823529+08:00","text":"所以我覺得不要用話術來處理這個事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:07.833333+08:00","text":"我沒有用話術。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:33.857143+08:00","text":"報告委員，在討論的過程當中，我們都是非常願意傾聽各位的意見，只是在滾動調查過程當中，可能第一個，數據上面我們必須要做比較好的盤整；第二個，我們在處理的過程當中，我還是一再強調，以往從素地裡面興建，我們認為這樣單一的方向不是很好，所以用多元的方向，既然是多元的方向可以取得的話，我覺得委員應該支持我們朝這個方向，包括修法的方向。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:52.857143+08:00","text":"我們之前修法時有講，住宅法第二十一條之一，就是社宅儲備用地，不就是希望你在整開的區域可以取得大面積的土地來處理嘛，但結論是，我修這些法的配套就是希望你直接興辦的數量可以增加，結果我們修了半天之後，你直接興辦的數量反而是減少，那不是很奇怪嗎？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:07.812500+08:00","text":"大家幫你把工具都找到了、把路都鋪平了，你只要提供相關的一些資源，中央、地方一起來協力興建，完全可以依照賴總統當初的承諾來做嘛，所以我才講這一段波折完全實屬不必，你按照本來的路徑去做不就好了嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:30.818182+08:00","text":"說到地的這件事情，我也要補充再問，今年1月23日我們在討論社宅的時候，羅廷瑋委員質詢時曾要求內政部提供土地盤點的狀況，因為我講了不外乎就是資源跟地，本席的辦公室也兩度去函內政部要求詳細的盤點資料，第一次的回復只有6個縣市的數據，第二次直接講，我們還在盤點跟檢討之中，確定前歉難提供相關細節。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:32.888889+08:00","text":"現在已經8月了，你們什麼時候要提供相關細節？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:33+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:33.750000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:31:01.714286+08:00","text":"我想在您所提到的部分確實是存在的，當時我們以為我們只要報到院裡頭的時候，院的部分只要是公開的，已經經過確定的計畫的話，這都要對外公開，後來因為院沒有核定，所以我們認為按照政府的資訊公開法，不宜公開相關的數據給委員，所以我們在黨團協商的時候也已經兩度跟包括民眾黨黨團提到這方面的意見，所以請委員能夠了解。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:31:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:31:15.750000+08:00","text":"所以資源的部分大量的撙節，用地的部分也說因為沒有核定，那今天質詢的內容就留待大家公評，政府到底有沒有誠意要推動這件事情，我想人民心中有數。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:31:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:31:21+08:00","text":"我最後花一點點時間補充一下包租代管的事情，因為最近財務問題很嚴重，但是孰令致之？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:31:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:31:50.800000+08:00","text":"當我們政府強制……因為我曾經承諾要100萬戶，然後我大量膨脹包租代管的時候，我都搞不清楚到底是在扶植業者還是真正在照顧居住者需求的時候，在包租的模式下，業者現在沒有找到房客，他就要先付大量的押金，屋況不好，他就要負擔裝修的成本，所以前期的資本投入就非常的高，就是因為前期的資本投入非常高，他們就去借錢，然後財務槓桿出現問題，才出現現在的財務危機，然後到最後導致這個政策沒有辦法貫徹。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:31:51+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:31:59.785714+08:00","text":"如果我們持續膨脹這樣的數量，卻壓縮了政府可以直接導引、直接處理的社會住宅的話，你形成的未來風險只會越來越大。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:32:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:32:05.857143+08:00","text":"今天的時間不夠，我就不多聽你的回答了，但是我們很懷疑，你到底只是要處理產業，還是要照顧弱勢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:32:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:32:19.777778+08:00","text":"如果真的要照顧弱勢、滿足居住者的需求，請你回到正常的政策邏輯，按照住宅法當初修正的各項配套，積極地直接興辦社宅，不要去砍這些什麼自償性補助款，你反而應該加碼補助。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:32:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:32:23.307692+08:00","text":"我們大家都知道國防預算很重要，所以大家也都會支持，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:32:23.461538+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:32:25.900000+08:00","text":"雖然中間有點吵架，住宅預算難道不重要嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:32:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:32:34.846154+08:00","text":"我們現在面對少子女化危機，上次住宅法修法，提高婚育宅的比例，如果直接興辦社宅的進度是零，那你幾趴、幾趴還不是零，對不對？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-08-12T11:32:35+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:32:41.500000+08:00","text":"所以我希望部長、署長回去好好再思考一下這件事情，不要讓這個錯誤的政策繼續延續下去，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T11:32:42+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T11:32:45.714286+08:00","text":"下一位請李坤城委員發言質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}