{"error":false,"id":["170952"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170952,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170952","日期":"2026-08-12","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-15-23","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":23,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-08-12T12:16:41+08:00","結束時間":"2026-08-12T12:30:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/628bd009efdbf44b27851c16958eab2b2dd155ae7acf52ac4fa83c81605d0cf7422a069ce37fbd0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:16:41 - 12:30:03","會議時間":"2026-08-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請內政部部長、國土管理署署長、財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「高房價環境下青年安心成家購屋優惠貸款3.0政策檢討：青年購屋門檻、首購資格認定、年齡限制、申貸年齡與核貸年限總合限制及政策上路對於落實居住正義、健全房市政策與配套措施」進行專題報告並備質詢。二、邀請內政部部長、國土管理署署長就「落實居住正義之困境與對策：十三萬戶社宅興辦檢討、都更社宅容獎制度失靈，暨行政院租賃市場修法三大方向(保障租期、限制漲幅、強化權益)之執行進度」進行專題報告並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.152218750000001,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.746593750000002,"end":53.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.41659375,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.74284375,"end":37.290968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.204093750000006,"end":73.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":73.58909375,"end":97.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":97.87221875,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.66096875000001,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.56784375000001,"end":103.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":103.76159375,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":109.61721875,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":111.79409375,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":113.19471875,"end":113.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":113.73471875000001,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.98346875,"end":118.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":115.77659375,"end":116.06346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.35846875000001,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.96971875000001,"end":122.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.94846875,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.57659375000001,"end":128.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.37346875,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":141.35909375,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":144.32909375,"end":148.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.22284375,"end":158.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.01471875000001,"end":161.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.86221875,"end":167.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.61659375000002,"end":171.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.50221875,"end":176.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.09221875,"end":180.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":180.45846875,"end":187.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.93096875,"end":186.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.58409375000002,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":188.15346875,"end":193.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.18721875,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.43534375000002,"end":199.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":199.07159375,"end":205.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.40409375000002,"end":207.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":206.19284375,"end":209.29784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":209.56784375,"end":213.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":213.93846875000003,"end":220.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":220.82346875000002,"end":227.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":228.02909375000002,"end":233.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.32784375000003,"end":277.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.49721875,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.63909375000003,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":273.08534375,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":276.34221875000003,"end":287.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":288.01971875000004,"end":305.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.35909375,"end":308.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":306.10971875,"end":306.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":307.69596875,"end":339.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.96159375,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.00346875,"end":340.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":340.34909375,"end":345.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.17159375,"end":342.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.72409375,"end":353.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":347.20034375,"end":347.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":350.60909375,"end":368.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":368.96909375,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":377.15346875,"end":380.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":381.18659375000004,"end":383.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":384.67971875,"end":385.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":385.45596875,"end":388.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":388.64534375000005,"end":395.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":395.69909375000003,"end":399.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.64409375,"end":396.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":400.20471875000004,"end":405.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":405.43596875000003,"end":407.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":407.98409375,"end":408.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":408.76034375,"end":411.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":411.81471875000005,"end":416.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":417.16409375,"end":419.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":419.45909375,"end":424.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":424.47096875000005,"end":425.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":426.25971875000005,"end":427.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":428.33534375000005,"end":430.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":430.63034375,"end":437.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.87846875,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":438.24096875000004,"end":439.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":440.26596875,"end":441.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.05909375000005,"end":447.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.35346875000005,"end":448.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":448.01159375000003,"end":453.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.19221875000005,"end":467.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":453.93471875,"end":455.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":458.03534375000004,"end":461.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":466.92846875000004,"end":482.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.64784375000005,"end":484.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":483.48284375000003,"end":495.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":495.68346875000003,"end":503.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":503.46284375000005,"end":507.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":507.31034375,"end":509.16659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":509.43659375000004,"end":537.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":537.6515937500001,"end":546.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.18159375,"end":548.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.7890937500001,"end":549.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.31221875,"end":551.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":550.29096875,"end":552.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":552.7040937500001,"end":558.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":553.4465937500001,"end":553.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":559.2009687500001,"end":567.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.8415937500001,"end":564.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.2209687500001,"end":577.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":578.10096875,"end":579.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":579.6028437500001,"end":580.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.1215937500001,"end":588.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":588.95159375,"end":596.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":589.5422187500001,"end":589.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":596.10659375,"end":602.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":597.76034375,"end":604.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.99159375,"end":614.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":615.37784375,"end":617.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":615.4453437500001,"end":630.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":618.61784375,"end":618.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":623.78159375,"end":623.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":629.3840937500001,"end":629.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":630.31221875,"end":630.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":630.86909375,"end":638.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":638.73284375,"end":640.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":638.9015937500001,"end":639.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":640.65659375,"end":642.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":641.4665937500001,"end":644.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":644.2509687500001,"end":646.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":646.03971875,"end":648.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.38096875,"end":651.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":651.49034375,"end":651.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":651.79409375,"end":653.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":653.4140937500001,"end":653.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":653.9709687500001,"end":656.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":654.4097187500001,"end":658.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":658.1728437500001,"end":658.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":658.8984687500001,"end":662.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":662.6615937500001,"end":665.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":665.3447187500001,"end":665.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":665.3615937500001,"end":665.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":665.6484687500001,"end":669.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":669.5634687500001,"end":670.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":671.3015937499999,"end":674.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":674.4740937500001,"end":674.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":674.5078437500001,"end":675.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":675.87471875,"end":693.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":678.6928437500001,"end":684.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":686.92784375,"end":687.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":693.67784375,"end":710.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":708.02159375,"end":710.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.14346875,"end":717.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":716.45909375,"end":719.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":718.0790937500001,"end":721.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":720.10409375,"end":733.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":724.7278437500001,"end":725.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":726.63471875,"end":731.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.96721875,"end":733.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":733.6884687500001,"end":734.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.1609687499999,"end":744.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":734.2959687500002,"end":734.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":737.1984687500001,"end":737.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":741.5859687500001,"end":741.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":744.7078437499999,"end":744.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":744.74159375,"end":744.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.91034375,"end":747.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":747.71159375,"end":750.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.2009687500001,"end":748.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.28096875,"end":749.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":750.51284375,"end":752.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.6984687500001,"end":750.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.91784375,"end":751.5928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.45346875,"end":766.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":753.60096875,"end":753.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":762.7978437500001,"end":777.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.9184687500001,"end":775.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.4497187500001,"end":782.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":781.57971875,"end":784.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":782.7947187500001,"end":783.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":784.38096875,"end":785.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":785.35971875,"end":798.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":786.5578437500001,"end":786.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":786.5915937500001,"end":786.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":786.79409375,"end":786.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":789.2747187500001,"end":790.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.1184687500001,"end":790.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":791.60346875,"end":792.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":795.8728437500001,"end":797.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":798.2353437500001,"end":799.87221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0,"end":9.5,"text":"主席好 麻煩請部長 內政部長 謝謝"},{"start":9.5,"end":12.5,"text":"部長好 我想跟您請教一下"},{"start":12.5,"end":16,"text":"就是其實大家還是希望能夠直接興建社會住宅"},{"start":16,"end":21,"text":"那時候賴總統他在選舉的時候提到一個政見"},{"start":21,"end":25.5,"text":"他是延續著蔡英文總統的基礎"},{"start":25.5,"end":28.5,"text":"但是那時候蔡英文總統他訂的社會住宅目標"},{"start":28.5,"end":31.5,"text":"他訂20萬戶 他是12萬戶直接興建"},{"start":31.5,"end":34.5,"text":"加上8萬戶的租金補貼 20萬戶"},{"start":34.5,"end":39.5,"text":"其實就已經受到大家很多質疑"},{"start":39.5,"end":43.5,"text":"因為大家期待是完工 甚至於是已經發包出去的"},{"start":43.5,"end":47.5,"text":"可是其實賴總統那時候他算那12萬戶"},{"start":47.5,"end":50.5,"text":"已經把很多什麼規劃中 招標中"},{"start":50.5,"end":54.5,"text":"類似這樣子就是還看不到的拿進來計算"},{"start":54.5,"end":57.5,"text":"所以有一個就是到底蔡英文總統有沒有跳票的爭議"},{"start":57.5,"end":59.5,"text":"那時候背景是這樣"},{"start":59.5,"end":63.5,"text":"所以當賴清德總統又推出一個要直接興建13萬戶的"},{"start":63.5,"end":67.5,"text":"然後要含包租代管加上租補貼100萬戶這樣計畫的時候"},{"start":67.5,"end":69.5,"text":"其實那個時候很多人提出質疑"},{"start":69.5,"end":71.5,"text":"覺得這是不是又是一個芭樂票"},{"start":71.5,"end":72.5,"text":"是不是又是隨便含含"},{"start":72.5,"end":75.5,"text":"我不知道那個部長您當時是立委啦"},{"start":75.5,"end":77.5,"text":"應該也有記得這個過程"},{"start":77.5,"end":81.5,"text":"結果那時候賴清德總統 那時候是副總統說"},{"start":81.5,"end":83.5,"text":"不會發生這個狀況 一定會很努力把它達成"},{"start":83.5,"end":87.5,"text":"結果沒有想到才上任兩年就大轉彎"},{"start":87.5,"end":90.5,"text":"直接興建13萬戶 直接縮水變3萬戶"},{"start":90.5,"end":95.5,"text":"其中3萬戶裡面還有2.5萬戶是蔡英文總統當時規劃的"},{"start":95.5,"end":99.5,"text":"那代表當時他在規劃這個政見的時候"},{"start":99.5,"end":103.5,"text":"就沒有很認真很仔細去思考說到底能不能做到"},{"start":103.5,"end":105.5,"text":"那我覺得這樣國會失望"},{"start":105.5,"end":107.5,"text":"國會覺得說對你期望這麼高"},{"start":107.5,"end":109.5,"text":"很多人可能也是因為這樣投票給他"},{"start":109.5,"end":112.5,"text":"只有兩年之後就自己就宣布跳票"},{"start":112.5,"end":114.5,"text":"那到底為什麼會這樣"},{"start":114.5,"end":117.5,"text":"報告委員蔡總統並沒有跳票"},{"start":117.5,"end":119.5,"text":"但是我要跟委員講到"},{"start":119.5,"end":122.5,"text":"蓋房子真的不是一朝一夕就可以完成"},{"start":122.5,"end":124.5,"text":"這個我都知道"},{"start":124.5,"end":126.5,"text":"我是說既然這麼困難"},{"start":126.5,"end":129.5,"text":"為什麼他會提出這樣的一個目標"},{"start":129.5,"end":133.5,"text":"他也可以講說蓋房子沒有那麼容易"},{"start":133.5,"end":136.5,"text":"所以蔡總統很努力的盡量完成"},{"start":136.5,"end":138.5,"text":"那我們就增加多少"},{"start":138.5,"end":140.5,"text":"你可以這樣子講保守一點"},{"start":140.5,"end":141.5,"text":"可是沒有"},{"start":141.5,"end":144.5,"text":"開支票的時候都講得很厲害"},{"start":144.5,"end":146.5,"text":"然後結果要執行的時候就說沒那麼容易"},{"start":146.5,"end":147.5,"text":"所以我們縮水"},{"start":147.5,"end":150.5,"text":"我覺得大家慢慢就會講的話我們就不會信了"},{"start":150.5,"end":152.5,"text":"就是政府官員講的話大家就慢慢就不信"},{"start":152.5,"end":155.5,"text":"會不會兩年後又時空環境變了"},{"start":155.5,"end":156.5,"text":"又有什麼狀況"},{"start":156.5,"end":158.5,"text":"導致於之前講的又不算話"},{"start":158.5,"end":161.5,"text":"我想您對社會住宅的關心我們也都了解"},{"start":161.5,"end":164.5,"text":"但是我還是一再跟委員報告說"},{"start":164.5,"end":167.5,"text":"13萬戶的目標真的沒有改變"},{"start":167.5,"end":169.5,"text":"改變的部分就是社會住宅的直接興建"},{"start":169.5,"end":171.5,"text":"我們改成是公務機關"},{"start":171.5,"end":172.5,"text":"我們講就是直接興建"},{"start":172.5,"end":173.5,"text":"不然我們不要玩文字遊戲"},{"start":173.5,"end":174.5,"text":"那時候講得很清楚"},{"start":174.5,"end":176.5,"text":"直接興建13萬戶"},{"start":176.5,"end":178.5,"text":"你現在講的是公務機關"},{"start":178.5,"end":180.5,"text":"公務機關包括中央跟地方"},{"start":180.5,"end":183.5,"text":"那蔡總統講的當然是中央機關"},{"start":183.5,"end":185.5,"text":"你怎麼會把地方算進來"},{"start":185.5,"end":187.5,"text":"地方是要看地方政府的努力"},{"start":187.5,"end":190.5,"text":"沒有啦他講的是中央加地方"},{"start":190.5,"end":193.5,"text":"他是總統他可以管得到地方政府"},{"start":193.5,"end":195.5,"text":"這還把責任甩給地方政府"},{"start":195.5,"end":197.5,"text":"沒關係啦你們因為這已經是政策"},{"start":197.5,"end":200.5,"text":"我希望說你們還是盡量要努力"},{"start":200.5,"end":202.5,"text":"不要找一個藝由藉口就是說"},{"start":202.5,"end":204.5,"text":"因為很困難所以我就不做"},{"start":204.5,"end":205.5,"text":"我覺得還是要"},{"start":205.5,"end":206.5,"text":"我完全接受所以我們會非常努力"},{"start":206.5,"end":207.5,"text":"我覺得還是要"},{"start":207.5,"end":210.5,"text":"不然國人真的會越來越失望"},{"start":210.5,"end":212.5,"text":"那我現在跟您請教個問題"},{"start":212.5,"end":214.5,"text":"因為那時候您是講說"},{"start":214.5,"end":216.5,"text":"為什麼會有這樣的改變"},{"start":216.5,"end":218.5,"text":"主要是至少我在新聞上面看到"},{"start":218.5,"end":219.5,"text":"是有兩個原因"},{"start":219.5,"end":222.5,"text":"一個原因是你說現在社會變遷了"},{"start":222.5,"end":224.5,"text":"社會變遷真的萬用的答案"},{"start":224.5,"end":225.5,"text":"時空環境變了"},{"start":225.5,"end":227.5,"text":"第二個您是講說"},{"start":227.5,"end":230.5,"text":"社宅會不會變成另外一種空餘屋"},{"start":230.5,"end":231.5,"text":"這句話什麼意思"},{"start":231.5,"end":233.5,"text":"可不可以請您進一步說明一下"},{"start":233.5,"end":235.5,"text":"報告委員在過去一段時間以來"},{"start":235.5,"end":237.5,"text":"我們知道說要蓋這個社會住宅"},{"start":237.5,"end":239.5,"text":"當然現在量還沒有衝出來"},{"start":239.5,"end":242.5,"text":"那在蔡總統任內到賴總統的時候"},{"start":242.5,"end":244.5,"text":"全台灣的22個縣市都有社宅"},{"start":244.5,"end":247.5,"text":"那現在社宅陸陸續續完工之後"},{"start":247.5,"end":249.5,"text":"我們要考慮的不是所謂的"},{"start":249.5,"end":250.5,"text":"講了這個社會變遷"},{"start":250.5,"end":253.5,"text":"而是哪個地方的人"},{"start":253.5,"end":256.5,"text":"哪個地方的身分的人比較需要社會住宅"},{"start":256.5,"end":258.5,"text":"那我們後來發現到說"},{"start":258.5,"end":260.5,"text":"包括我們從租金補貼裡面做分析"},{"start":260.5,"end":264.5,"text":"覺得在北北桃中這樣的一個蛋黃區域裡面"},{"start":264.5,"end":266.5,"text":"需要社會住宅的比例會比較高"},{"start":266.5,"end":270.5,"text":"那所以很多偏鄉非常偏遠地區的偏鄉"},{"start":270.5,"end":272.5,"text":"我們如果為了只要有空地"},{"start":272.5,"end":274.5,"text":"盤整出來的空地不在"},{"start":274.5,"end":276.5,"text":"然後到時候變成沒有人去"},{"start":276.5,"end":277.5,"text":"那個就是所謂的空屋"},{"start":277.5,"end":278.5,"text":"謝謝部長說明"},{"start":278.5,"end":281.5,"text":"所以您講的空餘屋其實您是擔心說"},{"start":281.5,"end":283.5,"text":"全台灣有一些縣市"},{"start":283.5,"end":286.5,"text":"縣市偏鄉地區如果蓋太多的話會有空餘屋"},{"start":286.5,"end":287.5,"text":"應該是這個意思嘛"},{"start":287.5,"end":289.5,"text":"那如果是這樣的話其實"},{"start":289.5,"end":291.5,"text":"我認為你應該可以增加"},{"start":291.5,"end":294.5,"text":"就是你把資源放在人口比較密集"},{"start":294.5,"end":295.5,"text":"需求量比較大的地方"},{"start":295.5,"end":297.5,"text":"對應該要這樣子"},{"start":297.5,"end":299.5,"text":"所以不要講說有空餘屋"},{"start":299.5,"end":301.5,"text":"我覺得你還是可以朝向那個目標"},{"start":301.5,"end":302.5,"text":"就是你講的十三萬戶"},{"start":302.5,"end":304.5,"text":"只是說你做一些調整"},{"start":304.5,"end":307.5,"text":"我希望我們可以了解我們所講的部分的前言後語"},{"start":307.5,"end":309.5,"text":"對對對我說你可以做一些調整"},{"start":309.5,"end":311.5,"text":"例如說你本來有一些資源要放在"},{"start":311.5,"end":313.5,"text":"南部或偏鄉"},{"start":313.5,"end":315.5,"text":"但是你後來發現這樣蓋下去會有空餘屋"},{"start":315.5,"end":317.5,"text":"你可以把這個資源就挪移到"},{"start":317.5,"end":319.5,"text":"比如說你覺得比較需要的地方"},{"start":319.5,"end":321.5,"text":"舉例來講像新北市我認為很需要"},{"start":321.5,"end":323.5,"text":"因為新北市就我了解"},{"start":323.5,"end":325.5,"text":"社會住宅的重遷率大概有10%的"},{"start":325.5,"end":327.5,"text":"然後好一點的是30%"},{"start":327.5,"end":329.5,"text":"所以你如果在新北市蓋的話"},{"start":329.5,"end":331.5,"text":"把資源移過來"},{"start":331.5,"end":333.5,"text":"我覺得你同時可以達到你要的目標"},{"start":333.5,"end":335.5,"text":"十三萬戶"},{"start":335.5,"end":337.5,"text":"這是一個很好的方向"},{"start":337.5,"end":339.5,"text":"對對對"},{"start":339.5,"end":341.5,"text":"你忽然講空餘屋大家會覺得說"},{"start":341.5,"end":343.5,"text":"蛤?我們那邊就沒有這個問題嘛"},{"start":343.5,"end":345.5,"text":"所以我有特別提到"},{"start":345.5,"end":347.5,"text":"我有特別提到他要稀缺土地"},{"start":347.5,"end":349.5,"text":"然後因為北北逃中的稀缺土地"},{"start":349.5,"end":351.5,"text":"真的非常的多"},{"start":351.5,"end":353.5,"text":"所以我們才希望用整開"},{"start":353.5,"end":355.5,"text":"因為我知道國土署也都有盤點很多"},{"start":355.5,"end":357.5,"text":"在這個北北基"},{"start":357.5,"end":359.5,"text":"你說北北基逃嘛是不是"},{"start":359.5,"end":361.5,"text":"保養逃中就是有比較多"},{"start":361.5,"end":363.5,"text":"你沒有土地盤整啦"},{"start":363.5,"end":365.5,"text":"那你把資源移過來"},{"start":365.5,"end":367.5,"text":"就不會在其他地方造成空餘屋"},{"start":367.5,"end":369.5,"text":"然後又可以達到你們要蓋"},{"start":369.5,"end":371.5,"text":"社會住宅直接興建目標"},{"start":371.5,"end":373.5,"text":"我是覺得可以"},{"start":373.5,"end":375.5,"text":"朝這個方向然後第二個好我跟"},{"start":375.5,"end":377.5,"text":"部長請教一下"},{"start":377.5,"end":379.5,"text":"現在中央因為國土署"},{"start":379.5,"end":381.5,"text":"都會公布每個月"},{"start":381.5,"end":383.5,"text":"都會公布新辦進度"},{"start":383.5,"end":385.5,"text":"那"},{"start":385.5,"end":387.5,"text":"我的數字就會調整我不知道為什麼"},{"start":387.5,"end":389.5,"text":"譬如說我們看2026年"},{"start":389.5,"end":391.5,"text":"7月我先看2026年4月30號"},{"start":391.5,"end":393.5,"text":"規劃中因為規劃中"},{"start":393.5,"end":395.5,"text":"到底規劃哪裡我希望"},{"start":395.5,"end":397.5,"text":"今天會後國土署"},{"start":397.5,"end":399.5,"text":"可以給我一份比較詳細的報告"},{"start":399.5,"end":401.5,"text":"譬如說以新北市來說"},{"start":401.5,"end":403.5,"text":"中央的部分規劃中是"},{"start":403.5,"end":405.5,"text":"8,375戶"},{"start":405.5,"end":407.5,"text":"這是2026年4月30號的"},{"start":407.5,"end":409.5,"text":"數字但是到了"},{"start":409.5,"end":411.5,"text":"2026年7月31號"},{"start":411.5,"end":413.5,"text":"新北市中央規劃中"},{"start":413.5,"end":415.5,"text":"的數字變成"},{"start":415.5,"end":417.5,"text":"7078戶"},{"start":417.5,"end":419.5,"text":"就少了1200多戶"},{"start":419.5,"end":421.5,"text":"那我不知道為什麼忽然間少"},{"start":421.5,"end":423.5,"text":"規劃中為什麼忽然規劃中"},{"start":423.5,"end":425.5,"text":"又不做了不做了還是怎麼樣"},{"start":425.5,"end":427.5,"text":"那是遇到什麼困難"},{"start":427.5,"end":429.5,"text":"是遇到什麼困難"},{"start":429.5,"end":431.5,"text":"還是說因為反正都已經"},{"start":431.5,"end":433.5,"text":"講了我們現在13萬戶要直接"},{"start":433.5,"end":435.5,"text":"變成3萬戶目標"},{"start":435.5,"end":437.5,"text":"沒那麼遠大了所以我也沒那麼積極"},{"start":437.5,"end":439.5,"text":"了是什麼原因"},{"start":439.5,"end":441.5,"text":"是什麼原因跟我們報告"},{"start":441.5,"end":443.5,"text":"其實這個一些"},{"start":443.5,"end":445.5,"text":"社宅的一個量我們固定跟縣市"},{"start":445.5,"end":447.5,"text":"政府都有一個會議在召開"},{"start":447.5,"end":449.5,"text":"那有些是中央的部分"},{"start":449.5,"end":451.5,"text":"你就回答我的問題就好"},{"start":451.5,"end":453.5,"text":"不要什麼都扯到地方"},{"start":453.5,"end":455.5,"text":"中央的部分其實中央的"},{"start":455.5,"end":457.5,"text":"一些用地的部分涉及到一些"},{"start":457.5,"end":459.5,"text":"相關的問題對對我現在就問你"},{"start":459.5,"end":461.5,"text":"所以你也會知道回答我問題就好了"},{"start":461.5,"end":463.5,"text":"那有時候這些機關他對那些原來"},{"start":463.5,"end":465.5,"text":"庫存的這個土地他有需求"},{"start":465.5,"end":467.5,"text":"那會就因為這樣"},{"start":467.5,"end":469.5,"text":"你現在講的是可能狀況"},{"start":469.5,"end":471.5,"text":"我現在問你的是具體狀況就是新北市"},{"start":471.5,"end":473.5,"text":"規劃中4月"},{"start":473.5,"end":475.5,"text":"有8000多戶到7月"},{"start":475.5,"end":477.5,"text":"剩7000戶少了"},{"start":477.5,"end":479.5,"text":"7000戶什麼原因"},{"start":479.5,"end":481.5,"text":"這是具體的問題不用跟我講原則的東西"},{"start":481.5,"end":483.5,"text":"我們再查一下"},{"start":483.5,"end":485.5,"text":"那沒關係你現在答不出來"},{"start":485.5,"end":487.5,"text":"我就說我剛說會後你提供給我"},{"start":487.5,"end":489.5,"text":"但是不要說"},{"start":489.5,"end":491.5,"text":"你不知道答案就在那邊亂扯"},{"start":491.5,"end":493.5,"text":"說這搞不好是地方政府的問題"},{"start":493.5,"end":495.5,"text":"亂扯這幹嘛這浪費大家時間"},{"start":495.5,"end":497.5,"text":"因為我想了解一下"},{"start":497.5,"end":499.5,"text":"是不是因為目標減少"},{"start":499.5,"end":501.5,"text":"之後你們就沒那麼積極"},{"start":501.5,"end":503.5,"text":"我想了解這件事你就告訴我"},{"start":503.5,"end":505.5,"text":"為什麼要減少"},{"start":505.5,"end":507.5,"text":"然後盡量公開透明"},{"start":507.5,"end":509.5,"text":"大家往興建的方向去做"},{"start":509.5,"end":511.5,"text":"然後再來跟部長請教一下"},{"start":511.5,"end":513.5,"text":"一個簡單的問題因為"},{"start":513.5,"end":515.5,"text":"除了新建社會住宅還有包租代管"},{"start":515.5,"end":517.5,"text":"因為最近不是有發生問題"},{"start":517.5,"end":519.5,"text":"那大家就發現說"},{"start":519.5,"end":521.5,"text":"這樣一個商業模式可能需要檢討"},{"start":521.5,"end":523.5,"text":"因為像發生問題那家公司"},{"start":523.5,"end":525.5,"text":"其實很多錢是在他那邊"},{"start":525.5,"end":527.5,"text":"房東的就是要給房東的錢"},{"start":527.5,"end":529.5,"text":"是在他那邊就從房客那邊收過來的"},{"start":529.5,"end":531.5,"text":"還有房客的押金也在他那邊"},{"start":531.5,"end":533.5,"text":"所以他一旦發生財務問題的時候"},{"start":533.5,"end":535.5,"text":"萬一我們沒有一個好的保障機制"},{"start":535.5,"end":537.5,"text":"搞不好房東會拿不到錢"},{"start":537.5,"end":539.5,"text":"搞不好房客的押金會拿不回來"},{"start":539.5,"end":541.5,"text":"所以我想問說"},{"start":541.5,"end":543.5,"text":"現在有沒有出現像房東"},{"start":543.5,"end":545.5,"text":"的錢拿不到的狀況有沒有"},{"start":545.5,"end":547.5,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":547.5,"end":549.5,"text":"目前都沒有"},{"start":549.5,"end":551.5,"text":"會不會有"},{"start":551.5,"end":553.5,"text":"現階段看起來"},{"start":553.5,"end":555.5,"text":"應該可以穩得住"},{"start":555.5,"end":557.5,"text":"我們盡可能把這個部分穩住"},{"start":557.5,"end":559.5,"text":"盡可能穩住什麼意思"},{"start":559.5,"end":561.5,"text":"如果他到時候財務狀況"},{"start":561.5,"end":563.5,"text":"然後他後面就不處理"},{"start":563.5,"end":565.5,"text":"那你說"},{"start":565.5,"end":567.5,"text":"這基於現階段而言"},{"start":567.5,"end":569.5,"text":"現在我們把他手上的案子"},{"start":569.5,"end":571.5,"text":"盡量在一個月之內"},{"start":571.5,"end":573.5,"text":"把他轉到其他的"},{"start":573.5,"end":575.5,"text":"業者的服務手上"},{"start":575.5,"end":577.5,"text":"那其實這個部分又重新接上"},{"start":577.5,"end":579.5,"text":"就不會有這個問題了"},{"start":579.5,"end":581.5,"text":"那照理說"},{"start":581.5,"end":583.5,"text":"現在公司也正在重新整頓"},{"start":583.5,"end":585.5,"text":"我們當然希望他穩下來"},{"start":585.5,"end":587.5,"text":"那另外從實質面的角度來看"},{"start":587.5,"end":589.5,"text":"是"},{"start":589.5,"end":591.5,"text":"一個問題一個問題來了"},{"start":591.5,"end":593.5,"text":"第一個你可以確定就是"},{"start":593.5,"end":595.5,"text":"所有房東都收到錢了"},{"start":595.5,"end":597.5,"text":"不會有房東收不到錢的狀況"},{"start":597.5,"end":599.5,"text":"我不能說百分之百"},{"start":599.5,"end":601.5,"text":"現在也沒有發生到"},{"start":601.5,"end":603.5,"text":"剛剛你有回答沒發生過"},{"start":603.5,"end":605.5,"text":"預期接下來"},{"start":605.5,"end":607.5,"text":"除非出現了我們預料之外的"},{"start":607.5,"end":609.5,"text":"一些狀況但是本質上"},{"start":609.5,"end":611.5,"text":"有朝現在的方向"},{"start":611.5,"end":613.5,"text":"我們還是可以相對樂觀"},{"start":613.5,"end":615.5,"text":"來看待說"},{"start":615.5,"end":617.5,"text":"根據什麼"},{"start":617.5,"end":619.5,"text":"待管案其實是房東和房客之間的關係"},{"start":619.5,"end":621.5,"text":"業者完全沒有碰到"},{"start":621.5,"end":623.5,"text":"那一筆租金"},{"start":623.5,"end":625.5,"text":"所以那個部分本質上不會有問題"},{"start":625.5,"end":627.5,"text":"那是包租的這個部分"},{"start":627.5,"end":629.5,"text":"包租的部分"},{"start":629.5,"end":631.5,"text":"那押金的部分"},{"start":631.5,"end":633.5,"text":"押金其實也是一樣"},{"start":633.5,"end":635.5,"text":"待管案也是房東直接拿"},{"start":635.5,"end":637.5,"text":"房客的押金"},{"start":637.5,"end":639.5,"text":"業者也不會碰那個押金"},{"start":639.5,"end":641.5,"text":"那業者主要會碰到什麼"},{"start":641.5,"end":643.5,"text":"包租案"},{"start":643.5,"end":645.5,"text":"我講就是包租案"},{"start":645.5,"end":647.5,"text":"那會有業者"},{"start":647.5,"end":649.5,"text":"付押金給原房東"},{"start":649.5,"end":651.5,"text":"房客再付押金給業者"},{"start":651.5,"end":653.5,"text":"這是兩份租約"},{"start":653.5,"end":655.5,"text":"我講就是這個"},{"start":655.5,"end":657.5,"text":"那現在這兩筆錢其實是"},{"start":657.5,"end":659.5,"text":"一樣大的"},{"start":659.5,"end":661.5,"text":"所以說一旦業者把押金"},{"start":661.5,"end":663.5,"text":"還給業者房東就有"},{"start":663.5,"end":665.5,"text":"那筆錢可以還給房客"},{"start":665.5,"end":667.5,"text":"那目前這筆錢"},{"start":667.5,"end":669.5,"text":"也不在業者手上"},{"start":669.5,"end":671.5,"text":"因為那筆錢是"},{"start":671.5,"end":673.5,"text":"房客拿給業者業者又拿給房東"},{"start":673.5,"end":675.5,"text":"所以還是在房東身上"},{"start":675.5,"end":677.5,"text":"那是因為時間"},{"start":677.5,"end":679.5,"text":"會有一個時間差"},{"start":679.5,"end":681.5,"text":"剛好有給的話就沒這個問題"},{"start":681.5,"end":683.5,"text":"所以第一個就是說"},{"start":683.5,"end":685.5,"text":"你是說"},{"start":685.5,"end":687.5,"text":"現在瞭解沒有發生狀況"},{"start":687.5,"end":689.5,"text":"至少房東房客權益不會受損"},{"start":689.5,"end":691.5,"text":"第二個就是從這個個案"},{"start":691.5,"end":693.5,"text":"你可以瞭解到這個模式有一個風險"},{"start":693.5,"end":695.5,"text":"那這家公司"},{"start":695.5,"end":697.5,"text":"他可以做這個生意其實因為配合"},{"start":697.5,"end":699.5,"text":"政府的政策才有辦法做這個生意"},{"start":699.5,"end":701.5,"text":"那政府當然有責任保障房東房客的權益"},{"start":701.5,"end":703.5,"text":"所以你們應該會針對這個"},{"start":703.5,"end":705.5,"text":"個案"},{"start":705.5,"end":707.5,"text":"然後去找到這個商業模式的一個漏洞的修補"},{"start":707.5,"end":709.5,"text":"那現在什麼時候會提出來"},{"start":709.5,"end":711.5,"text":"我想我們會跟部裡面"},{"start":711.5,"end":713.5,"text":"跟業界一起來"},{"start":713.5,"end":715.5,"text":"再精進"},{"start":715.5,"end":717.5,"text":"因為這裡面有各種角度"},{"start":717.5,"end":719.5,"text":"你們大概預計什麼時候會"},{"start":719.5,"end":721.5,"text":"這個部位屬於政策的部位"},{"start":721.5,"end":723.5,"text":"現在都已經發生這樣的事情"},{"start":723.5,"end":725.5,"text":"然後我問你說你們有沒有警戒"},{"start":725.5,"end":727.5,"text":"然後我問你時針表你說不知道"},{"start":727.5,"end":729.5,"text":"因為大家覺得好像你沒有很當意"},{"start":729.5,"end":731.5,"text":"那是安定產業"},{"start":731.5,"end":733.5,"text":"指示一下"},{"start":733.5,"end":735.5,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":735.5,"end":737.5,"text":"因為那個住宅中心是行政法人"},{"start":737.5,"end":739.5,"text":"那您提到的說以後未必"},{"start":739.5,"end":741.5,"text":"要怎麼防避的部分"},{"start":741.5,"end":743.5,"text":"就是我們現在的租賃的"},{"start":743.5,"end":745.5,"text":"租屋服務業這個部分"},{"start":745.5,"end":747.5,"text":"我們會來做比較好的修正"},{"start":747.5,"end":749.5,"text":"我知道大概什麼時間表"},{"start":749.5,"end":751.5,"text":"講一個大概的時間表"},{"start":751.5,"end":753.5,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":753.5,"end":755.5,"text":"因為我們現在也在收集國外的一些資料"},{"start":755.5,"end":757.5,"text":"跟一些相關的建議"},{"start":757.5,"end":759.5,"text":"有些國家是用專戶管理"},{"start":759.5,"end":761.5,"text":"就是押租金跟去用薪托"},{"start":761.5,"end":763.5,"text":"我相信你們過程會很認真"},{"start":763.5,"end":765.5,"text":"我直接問一個時間表"},{"start":765.5,"end":767.5,"text":"我相信這個過程你們都會做"},{"start":767.5,"end":769.5,"text":"發生這麼大的事情"},{"start":769.5,"end":771.5,"text":"我也不覺得內政部"},{"start":771.5,"end":773.5,"text":"或租中心會完全自知不理"},{"start":773.5,"end":775.5,"text":"但是就講一個時間表"},{"start":775.5,"end":777.5,"text":"我們大概預計"},{"start":777.5,"end":779.5,"text":"在三個月之內先找"},{"start":779.5,"end":781.5,"text":"一些專家學者"},{"start":781.5,"end":783.5,"text":"三個月才要找專家學者"},{"start":783.5,"end":785.5,"text":"我以為三個月會有個結論出來"},{"start":785.5,"end":787.5,"text":"報告委員這樣子"},{"start":787.5,"end":789.5,"text":"我們不涉及修法的狀況之下"},{"start":789.5,"end":791.5,"text":"因為修法還是比較人潮"},{"start":791.5,"end":793.5,"text":"不涉及修法的狀況之下"},{"start":793.5,"end":795.5,"text":"如果有授權的執法或規定的話"},{"start":795.5,"end":797.5,"text":"我們一個月會針對造機跟積極學者"},{"start":797.5,"end":799.5,"text":"發生的狀況把漏洞先回起來"},{"start":799.5,"end":801.5,"text":"好謝謝部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}