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謝謝"},{"start":663,"end":665,"text":"大概什麼時候可以建議給我們"},{"start":666,"end":667,"text":"不用長"},{"start":667,"end":669,"text":"我不要很長的文字"},{"start":669,"end":670,"text":"我只是要你們建議的"},{"start":670,"end":672,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":672,"end":673,"text":"因為這一個部分"},{"start":673,"end":675,"text":"所以到特殊關於福島委員"},{"start":675,"end":676,"text":"因為國防部目前"},{"start":676,"end":677,"text":"最主要是縣議軍的"},{"start":677,"end":679,"text":"你們的建議就好了"},{"start":679,"end":681,"text":"不過我們再延長"},{"start":681,"end":683,"text":"那就還是要給我一個建議"},{"start":683,"end":685,"text":"兩個禮拜可以嗎"},{"start":685,"end":687,"text":"簡單就好了"},{"start":687,"end":689,"text":"簡單的文字給我就好了"},{"start":689,"end":693,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員的詢答"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:22:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:22:54.214286+08:00","text":"謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:22:55.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:22:56.785714+08:00","text":"請副部長跟司長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T11:22:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:22:59.571429+08:00","text":"請副部長跟司長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:23:04.750000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:23:39.777778+08:00","text":"副部長，我們今天針對陸海空軍刑法第二十四條提出修正案，原因當然是最近如果大家看新聞的話，有許多基層士官兵可能因為財務上面的糾紛、困難，導致他們必須透過地下錢莊而變成債滾債沒有辦法負擔，最後就向中國或者是中國的代理勢力來錄影表達他們要對中共效忠的表現。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:23:40.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:24:07.727273+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，其實我自己也有版本，我的版本是針對以言語、舉動、文字、圖畫、電磁紀錄、科技方法或其他方式對敵人效忠，但我不是只有講這邊，還有「足以生軍事上之不利益者」，處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑，院版沒有這一句話。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:24:08.153846+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:24:24.875000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要談這句話，就是我們同時要有一個平衡，平衡性的意思是你必須要知道他的意圖會造成這個結果，對我國軍事是不利的，但是如果他沒有意圖，也沒有這個結果，則又是另外一回事。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:24:25.444444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:24:49.833333+08:00","text":"如果既無意圖也無結果，但是他傳送了這些言語、文字、圖畫跟電磁紀錄，作為可能是他……我們不揣測，有可能他認為是玩笑，或者認為沒有這個意圖去傷害我國國軍，只是他故意這樣子講來反諷，就是可能有各種不同的方式。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:24:50.833333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:25:11.800000+08:00","text":"在這種狀況之下，我們用哪樣子的刑法條文來辦理就很重要，我們認為這些嚴重傷害我國國家利益的，當然是要法辦，但是在法辦的基礎之下，我們把它明確定義好，這樣子的話，未來法官判刑就更有相關的基準在。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:25:12.214286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:25:17.785714+08:00","text":"我想問一下副部長或者司長有什麼樣的看法？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:25:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:25:36.857143+08:00","text":"報告委員，剛剛委員提出的版本在以言語、舉動、文字、圖畫、電磁紀錄、科技方法或其他方式對敵人為效忠之表示，後面加上足以生軍事上之不利益。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:25:37.857143+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:25:51.750000+08:00","text":"關於委員提的版本，司法院也有提出相同的版本，司法院是認為在這一個法條上面加上適性犯處理的話，能夠讓法院就具體個案做判斷認定。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:25:52.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:26:18+08:00","text":"我們對於足以生軍事上之不利益表示尊重，待會法條要怎麼樣調整，才符合現在實務上所面臨的困境，我想待會逐條的時候，可以再做充分的討論，但是針對足以生軍事上之不利益，我們都是尊重的。好。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:26:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:26:57.789474+08:00","text":"因為加上「足以生軍事上之不利益者」的話，由檢調提出證據，只要提出的證據符合證據法則，基本上他就可以成立犯罪並且判刑，亦即可以交由法官審理，然後可能會判刑等等，我認為這是在法治國家可以做的事情，而且同時能夠遏止這種歪風，要不然我們到時候又要用其他的罪來管理這些實質上已經對我國軍風造成很大的負面影響的事件，那我們又找不出相關的法條，因此現在這個法條我是非常正面的看待。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:26:58.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:27:24.666667+08:00","text":"回到這個共諜案件，目前現役軍人或者是退役軍人接觸到現役軍人，或者是說中共目前鎖定的現役及退役軍人，這個部分我想要請教一下，當他們覺得奇怪有之前的長官或者是部屬來接觸時，他們有義務要通報？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:27:25+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:27:27.857143+08:00","text":"還是可以不用通報，只要拒絕就好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:27:28.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:27:46.700000+08:00","text":"我必須要簡單地來請教一下，因為這跟最近油品事件的概念是一樣的，如果受檢驗的機關發覺到油品是有問題的，它是有義務的，因為依食安相關的法律是有義務，那在軍事相關的部分呢？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T11:27:47+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:06.500000+08:00","text":"簡單跟委員回答，按照我們110年修頒的國軍正義專案實施作業規定，如果官兵遭受到異常的接觸要依時回報，如果沒有依時回報跟隱匿事實的話，我們要依規定來究處，確實有這樣的規定。究責？對。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:07+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:07.666667+08:00","text":"依規定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:10+08:00","text":"所以不是法律，只是規定而已，是嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:10.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:10.800000+08:00","text":"對，規定而已。OK。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:11.214286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:13.785714+08:00","text":"你們覺得有相關的修法需求嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:24.666667+08:00","text":"我為什麼講這件事情就是如果依規定的話，當然有行政懲處，那法律懲處的話，就可以有刑事上面，或者是不見得要到有期徒刑的程度，我們不知道。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:25.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:36.692308+08:00","text":"你覺得現在有必要針對不正當或者是異常接觸指引去做修法，從規定上升到法律嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:37+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:40.823529+08:00","text":"可不可以請司長把實務見解跟我們說一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:41+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:54.833333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛才副部長跟您說明有關於國軍正義專案實施作業規定，是針對現役軍人如果可能遭受到一些不當接觸的話，按照規定要向上回報。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:56.833333+08:00","text":"OK，所以没有罰則？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:57+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:28:58.894737+08:00","text":"這是屬於我們自己的內部管理規定。內部。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:28:59.166667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:08.812500+08:00","text":"這個規定就足以規範現役軍人有回報的義務，如果你沒有回報但事後被我們察覺的話，可以按照「陸海空軍懲罰法」加以懲處。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:09.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:10.333333+08:00","text":"會是什麼樣的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:10.555556+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:11.833333+08:00","text":"懲處，就是行政處分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:12.750000+08:00","text":"行政處分嗎？是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:13.421053+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:16.789474+08:00","text":"行政處分嘛，我剛才問的是你認為這樣已經足夠了？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:16.789474+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:17.789474+08:00","text":"對，已經足夠了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:17+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:18.800000+08:00","text":"你不認為還要再往上的原因……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:19+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:21.500000+08:00","text":"對，目前為止是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:21.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:22.500000+08:00","text":"不建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:33.857143+08:00","text":"我們認為還不建議提到法律的位階，因為如果提到法律位階，現役軍人若涉犯反滲透法，或其他法律有相關規定就適用其他法律的處理就好。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:34.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:38.750000+08:00","text":"OK，我了解，反正現在有相關的規定，在軍中也有做宣導。是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:39.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:43.666667+08:00","text":"我們剛才提到的都是現役的軍官必須有義務通報。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:43.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:44.666667+08:00","text":"對，現役的軍人要回報。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:44.214286+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:29:50.727273+08:00","text":"我現在問的是退役軍人，退役的軍人會列管多久？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:29:51.923077+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:00.888889+08:00","text":"如果二星、三星的將軍退役也除役之後，他還會被列管嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:01.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:02.800000+08:00","text":"列管的時間大概是多久？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:03+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:14.555556+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，就是看國軍官兵涉密的程度，我們有一個核定的標準，大概最長的話可以到……機密可以到三年。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:17.800000+08:00","text":"機密的話是三年，絕對機密就會比較久？對。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:18.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:31.714286+08:00","text":"所以包含已經離職、退職的約聘僱人員，在退、離職三年內如果接受到異常接觸的話，他一樣有義務嗎？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:37.600000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果是退役人員的話，我們都會在他退伍之前跟大家做宣達。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:37.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:38.600000+08:00","text":"好，宣達。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:30:42.785714+08:00","text":"但是國軍內部的規定已經沒辦法拘束到退役人員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:30:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:31:08.833333+08:00","text":"所以我要講這件事情，第一點，他還是涉密人員，他還是一樣要被規範三年，因為機密保護嘛，包含限制出境等等是三年，有些是五年，我不知道，我們就講三年的機密為主，在這三年內他如果接受到異常接觸的話，他沒有義務通報，我覺得相關的規定是不是要做調整？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"吳司長逸聖","start":"2026-08-12T11:31:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:31:19.833333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果是在期限之內，他出國有接受相關人員的探尋，他要回報，但是如果超過期限就不用回報。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:31:20.142857+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:31:33.857143+08:00","text":"原則上嘛，你剛才也提到他沒有相關的指引跟規範，所以我才問是不是應該要把相關的規範納入，或者……我不知道要用法律還是行政命令的位階以及要怎麼樣懲處，因為他已經退役了要怎麼懲處？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:31:34.133333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:31:49.785714+08:00","text":"變成你要用其他的方式去辦理，如果他只是涉及沒有回報，可是對我們來講這個情報就等於斷掉了，這很可惜，我們就沒有辦法在第一時間把要滲透的這些單位做調整。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:31:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:32:03.428571+08:00","text":"我認為可以考慮在機密的規範內，不管是三年、五年，涉密層級到機密跟絕對機密等等的那段時間內，他還是有義務回報。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:32:04.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:32:30.750000+08:00","text":"我講個美方的例子，其實之前美國有一些案例甚至是跟友邦，就是跟我國，他只是正常的接觸，他交付一個不敏感的一般公務文件而已，那位美方人員就受到很嚴正的調查。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:32:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:33:52.384615+08:00","text":"因為他接觸我國官員但沒有回報，雖然他已經不是現任的官員，只是在列管的人員名單，但還是有clearance的概念，他就要接受這麼縝密的調查，而且是跟友邦，很親密的國家友邦，我認為可能以現在國情的狀況，該調整的還是可以適當調整，不是對每一個人都要嚴刑峻法，要把他送進監獄，不是這個意思，而是要有相關的罰則，我不贊同把所有人都……哪怕是一點點就要用有期徒刑來限制，但是要有相應的罰則，至少知道我做這件事情或我沒有做這件事情會有一定的……對我的仕途也好，或者對我未來在非政府單位也好，或者是對我自己的金錢會有負面影響，這樣他們才會去調整他們的行為，然後儘快的回報給政府機關，這樣對我們得到情報的方式、反情報的方式、反滲透的方式才會有所增益，我是這樣想，希望司長可以簡單的書面回復你們建議的修正方向，或者是改正方向，大概什麼時候可以提供建議？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:33:55+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:33:57.777778+08:00","text":"我不要很長的文字，我只要你們的建議，謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T11:33:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:34:04.750000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為這個部分涉及到退除役官員輔導委員會，因為國防部最主要是現役軍人，有關……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:34:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:34:06.500000+08:00","text":"你們提供建議就好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾副部長樹明","start":"2026-08-12T11:34:07.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:34:08.142857+08:00","text":"退除役的部分，我們再……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:34:09.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:34:12.714286+08:00","text":"沒關係，還是要給我一份建議，兩個禮拜可以嗎？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-12T11:34:13+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:34:16.800000+08:00","text":"簡單就好了，簡單的文字給我就好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T11:34:17.363636+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-12T11:34:20.636364+08:00","text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員的詢答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T11:34:21.136364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T11:34:26.564935+08:00","text":"所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T11:34:26.864935+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T11:34:37.722078+08:00","text":"委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員或本聯席會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-12T11:34:38.022078+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-12T11:34:53.164935+08:00","text":"委員蔡其昌、范雲、陳昭姿、王安祥、沈發惠、許宇甄、陳俊宇、傅崐萁、翁曉玲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}